Higher rates - not sure heatpump will be cheaper

[jerrod6]

I just received my electric bill for the month of April. It contained information about deregulation to take effect in Pennsylvania January 2011. Right now my utility says they expect rates to increase at least 20% but the increase will depend on the market conditions. I don’t understand this because the last time we had a large phased in increase it was associated with the construction of 2 nuclear power plants which were supposed to shield consumers from changing market conditions.

The company is offering a phase in plan which has you start paying an additional 0.0053 per KWh of energy use starting in July of this year. In 2010 the additional charge increases to an additional .0107. The company will give you 6% interest on the additional amount and then use it as a monthly credit starting in January 2011. An example is given of a customer using 1,000 Kwhs per month. In 2009 the early phase in charge is $5.30 per month. In 2010 the early charge is $10.70 per month. In 2011 the monthly credit is $9.70. In 2012 the monthly credit is $4.86.

I looked over my bills from last year to this month and the highest bill was for 1693Kwh at a cost of $278.00. 20% more for the same Kwh – not so good, so I am thinking about joining this program since it seems to be better than the last time we had rates phased in but the devil is in the details which I don’t have yet. I was previously thinking of a dual fuel system – gas and heat pump because my gas rates are high, but now I am not sure it will save any money and using the heat pump might even cost more. Myabe get one with a high efficiency rating? Any savings from using a heat pump in this scenario?

[beenthere]

This has been coming for about 10 years now.
Rate hikes start Jan 2010.

Remember when you first saw about being able to choose your elecgric provider.
Its part of that arrangement.

Because some electric companies couldn't make money at the rates they were restricted to by the PUC.

So now, with deregulation. The power companies can raise the electric rate without PUC approval.

So now those companies that couldn't make money at the lower rates. will be able to charge higher rates, and make money.

Don't worry. The gas companies will chatge more for the gas that is used to generate the electric, and of course. Raise their rates to residential customers too.

[sktn77a]

Shop around..... and don't pay them any money up front! Pay when you owe it. They aren't doing this as a favor to anybody - like you say, the devil is in the detail. And as nobody is paying 6% interest , there's a catch in there somewhere!

[pstu]

I just received my electric bill for the month of April. It contained information about deregulation...
...I was previously thinking of a dual fuel system – gas and heat pump because my gas rates are high, but now I am not sure it will save any money and using the heat pump might even cost more. Myabe get one with a high efficiency rating? Any savings from using a heat pump in this scenario?

I think it would be comforting to have dual fuel, and be able to use natural gas as long as gas remains cheap. It is quite low now and nobody can tell how high it will be a few years out. I am a homeowner in S.Texas where gas is all around, used to work in the rate dept of an electric utility in the years when Texas dereg was being formed. It has not turned out like the predictions at the time, I must agree. Predictions are seldom accurate, no matter who makes them.

My take on the motivation for dereg of electric rates is a different one. The utilities under regulation are on a tight leash, little freedom to change prices unilaterally -- but the PUC once they approve a plant will grant rates high enough to pay for it over 30 years. That is really a golden handcuff type of relationship, note that the customer has little say in any of that. And the residential guy is for all practical purposes a captive customer, you might say a sheep to be sheared.

No matter. Prices of a commodity like gas will go up and down, basically cannot predict. Electricity seems to have little potential to go down, lots to go up. Dual fuel lets you hedge your bets.

Best wishes -- Pstu

[beenthere]

And as nobody is paying 6% interest , there's a catch in there somewhere!

They get more then that in discount pricing.
When they pay for their gas/coal for generation in advance.

[amd]

The company is only offering that because it's profiteable - they aren't trying to do you any favours.

Reducing energy use is much better than gambling with silly contracts.

Deregulation doesn't work and just allows private companies to cut supply and raise prices; ultimately no new plants get built, the price goes up, supply declines (think rotating blackouts) and energy users get shafted. It was tried in california with disasterous results. :(

[heatpumpguru]

So if we get the RH rate 6 cents from Oct 15 to May 15 are they just going to take that away and raise us from 6 cents to 30% higher then what people are paying without a heat pump (alittle less then 15 cents a KW now 12 months a year) so the would be an increase over a 100% and all the GEO's us electric also.So oil or propane will be the fuel of choice?

[beenthere]

Lots of people are going to be hurting no matter what fuel they use/choose.

You might want to find out what they are going to do in your area.

[heatpumpguru]

We have been trying,I meet a guy a guy on the PUC board who did not even know they had a RH rate.

[beenthere]

That doesn't surprise me.

[rbeck]

I think all these rate hikes is a government ploy to push residential customers to solar and windmill use for power and heat. :D

[beenthere]

Lot of people going to be calling for new heat pumps when they get their electric bill for Jan 09.

And people with electric baseboard wil be calling asking about heatpumps, or gas, or oil furnaces. So they can heat cheaper.

Only a few companies are capped until 2011.

And those poor customers will get hit harder when the cap is gone.

[Whiskey_Sour]

.

[pstu]

Efficiency is always a very attractive solution. In the PA climate, is air sealing the same sleeper issue it seems to be in the hot-humid South? More insulation is great when the house is well sealed, in a prior Texas house I had more insulation installed and did not see *any* difference in electric consumption. I believe that house was very leaky and that more insulation will do little good until the house is better sealed -- in my experience anyway, being a homeowner who didn't know the basics in Texas.

Sounds like this forecasted rate change, besides irritating millions of homeowners, is going to light a fire under some to improve energy usage.

Best of luck -- Pstu

[beenthere]

This should be fairly easy for the professionals to figure out, 1 therm is 100,000 btu, assuming 80% AFUE i would assume is 80,000 btu. What would it cost for the same amount of heat to be produced with a heat pump and a given temp and humidity? There must be a sweet spot there somewhere. FYI, my highest electric bill was $172.77 for 1640 kwh of electricity, gas here is $1.46/therm. Yes the electric rates are regulated by the state, the conspiracy by the way is by the companies, it's called profit for the shareholders. I'd look real hard at ways to insulate that house, I'd go nuts with electric bills like that.

At your postet electric bill at 1640KWH.
Your electric rate comes out to $0.1053476 per KW.

80,000BTUs by electric resistance heat =$2.47
80,000BTUs by Nat gas, at your rate, and 80% efficiency=$1.46
80,000BTUs by heat pump at a COP of 3=$0.82
80,000BTUs by heat pump at a COP of 1.7=$1.45


Now you have to determine at what outdoor temp the heat pump has what COP, and at what outdoor temp your home needs aux heat.
Plus how many hours you will be at those temps.
And what type of aux heat your going to use. To determine which is cheaper to use with the heat pump.

[jerrod6]

So if we get the RH rate 6 cents from Oct 15 to May 15 are they just going to take that away and raise us from 6 cents to 30% higher then what people are paying without a heat pump (alittle less then 15 cents a KW now 12 months a year) so the would be an increase over a 100% and all the GEO's us electric also.So oil or propane will be the fuel of choice?

There was speculation that they would do away with the electric heating rate but I don't think that makes sense. I think they will keep the rate but it will be raised so that it is closer to the almost 15 cents non electric heat customers pay now. Besides this if you look at the rates between regular customers and electric heat customers you see that they are all over the place. Electric heat customers are charged more during the summer than regular customers even though everybody pays more after using over 500Kwh, and then electric heat customers pay less during the winter so the company is making up for what they don't get in the winter from heating customers by charging them more in the summer.

By the way I found the rate tariff that is effective June 1, 2009 and they are increasing the distribution rate approximately by 1 cent. They say this is to cover the cost of educating consumers about their phase in plan and competition. So they are even charging customers for telling them about the programs. I am not under any illusion about the utility having pure intentions.

If I am going to pay extra for close to 2 years I would like more than a $10 monthly credit the first year so I will probably not sign up for their phase in plan.

Looking at beenthere's example it still may make sense to have a heatpump in a dual fuel situation but I guess I will need to wait until I see what the rates and any ADDITIONAL charges actually are.

[jerrod6]

Lot of people going to be calling for new heat pumps when they get their electric bill for Jan 09.

And people with electric baseboard wil be calling asking about heatpumps, or gas, or oil furnaces. So they can heat cheaper.

Only a few companies are capped until 2011.

And those poor customers will get hit harder when the cap is gone.

The first heat pump I used was in newer construction and it was able to provide adequate heat until down in the low teens, without aux heating windows and doors where also tight.

The second heat pump was older and it was no good when the temp reached 30F...what a disappointment I had with that...so yeah folks having existing heatpumps would be wise to get the most efficient one they can find i I guess this is geo? - but the installation costs are high.

[jerrod6]

This has been coming for about 10 years now.
Rate hikes start Jan 2010.

Remember when you first saw about being able to choose your elecgric provider.
Its part of that arrangement.

Because some electric companies couldn't make money at the rates they were restricted to by the PUC.

So now, with deregulation. The power companies can raise the electric rate without PUC approval.

So now those companies that couldn't make money at the lower rates. will be able to charge higher rates, and make money.

Don't worry. The gas companies will chatge more for the gas that is used to generate the electric, and of course. Raise their rates to residential customers too.

I picked one energy supplier and had lower rates for a while , then the company left my area. I picked another supplier and they stayed around for 1 more year and then they left. So perhaps some of them will return and we can actually get competition. The problem is that on my bill the distribution and transmission costs are unbundled from the energy costs, so I will still have to pay my original "home" company for these.

[jerrod6]

I think all these rate hikes is a government ploy to push residential customers to solar and windmill use for power and heat. :D

There is a big push for using solar in Germany I think domestic hot water. How do the PROS feel about getting into HVAC solar power? What do you think of using a combination of solar something..with gas, or heatpump with some type of backup fueled by solar?

Maybe this is a topic for it's own thread but I am wondering what you all think and how you all feel about this.

[Whiskey_Sour]

.

[jerrod6]

I thought about solar as a first alternative, but came to the conclusion that increasing efficiency first was more cost effective. That's why I first had the glass in my dual pane widows replaced with low-e, low shgc glass. I live in Arizona, so obviously sun is the problem here. Made a nice difference all by itself. Next I'm having a Carrier Infinity 21 system installed later this month.
The last thing I'm going to even think about is PV cells, they're still expensive.
Here's one bid I got:

This system is good for about 475 kwh per month. So going with insulation, and more efficient HVAC seems to be far more cost effective. Going with solar up front is kind of a "brute force" method I think.

I don't think listing prices is allowed on the site so you might want to remove them before the moderators do.

[pstu]

It is my pet idea that a solar power app that can use BTUs as heat energy, will require a smaller collector surface and be more economical. Hot water heating does that. Photoelectric of course does not. Perhaps someone inventive can come up with a way to better utilize heat BTUs, such as an assist to space heating. It is my understanding that an evacuated tube type of solar collector can produce meaningful energy even at freezing temperatures. I am not saying such an application will be a winner, just suggesting the possibility.

In areas dominated by cooling, we are left with hot water heating and not much else... anyone want to revive the old technology of AC powered by a flame? How about heating synthetic oil to hundreds of degrees and using it for cooking?

For immediate benefit it is hard to do better than upgrading our houses to require less energy for heating and cooling. In an era where PA electric rates will be higher and hard to predict (and understand), surely lots of people will pay a lot of attention to upgrades.

Best wishes -- Pstu

P.S. about the Pennsylvania nuke plants supposed to protect the consumer against fuel price increases... when was that plant built, like 25 years ago? The very last 4 nukes finished in the USA were all in Texas and that was around 1987. Seems the magic of their protection cannot be expected to last forever. But on the cheery side, there have been massive new discoveries of natural gas within the US lately, and that would tend to tilt gas prices downward for the future.

[jerrod6]

It is my pet idea that a solar power app that can use BTUs as heat energy, will require a smaller collector surface and be more economical. Hot water heating does that. Photoelectric of course does not. Perhaps someone inventive can come up with a way to better utilize heat BTUs, such as an assist to space heating. It is my understanding that an evacuated tube type of solar collector can produce meaningful energy even at freezing temperatures. I am not saying such an application will be a winner, just suggesting the possibility.

In areas dominated by cooling, we are left with hot water heating and not much else... anyone want to revive the old technology of AC powered by a flame? How about heating synthetic oil to hundreds of degrees and using it for cooking?

For immediate benefit it is hard to do better than upgrading our houses to require less energy for heating and cooling. In an era where PA electric rates will be higher and hard to predict (and understand), surely lots of people will pay a lot of attention to upgrades.

Best wishes -- Pstu

P.S. about the Pennsylvania nuke plants supposed to protect the consumer against fuel price increases... when was that plant built, like 25 years ago? The very last 4 nukes finished in the USA were all in Texas and that was around 1987. Seems the magic of their protection cannot be expected to last forever. But on the cheery side, there have been massive new discoveries of natural gas within the US lately, and that would tend to tilt gas prices downward for the future.

I agree that perhaps solar is not quite there for real heating needs so probably the best we can do is upgrade our houses and try to conserve energy. For this last year I raised my Tstat in the summer and lowered it in the winter. I compared the hottest months in these two years and it turns out that they both had the same average temperature according to the electric company. Reducing my Tstat lowered my KWH from 1779 to 1693 and lowered the bill about $20. Problem is that no matter what I do energy costs are there to defeat any savings I get.

If I remember correctly the last Nuclear power plants were built in the mid 80's. I was just newly out of my parents house and there were two plants built one after the other. We the rate payers paid for them through cost increases every June for the next five years. But because the rate increases were phased in, the utility commission allowed the company to recoup the money they would have gotten if the rate hike was made all at once. This resulted in the rate payers paying higher rates each of 5 years, and after that we had a unrecoverable rate factor added on to our bills for the next 3 years. This is how we came to have the highest energy costs in the entire state. We turn on our lights, turn on TV's, run air conditioners - just like everyone else but we pay more thanks to our nuclear power plants that were supposed to help us. Now here comes an increase of at least 20%, so I feel like looking at what ever I can to reduce costs.

[gary_g]

If I remember correctly the last Nuclear power plants were built in the mid 80's. I was just newly out of my parents house and there were two plants built one after the other.

Limerick Unit 2 was built in the late 80's. I worked there for almost a year back in the day. I checked my resume - it said 1988.

[beenthere]

Three mile island has only had 1 reacter since 79.

if the second one hadn't partially melted down. The rates would be cheaper.

[jerrod6]

Limerick Unit 2 was built in the late 80's. I worked there for almost a year back in the day. I checked my resume - it said 1988.

Thanks Gary. I knew it was in the mid or late 80's, but since we continued to pay for the things for what seemed like forever I wasn't sure.

[jerrod6]

Three mile island has only had 1 reacter since 79.

if the second one hadn't partially melted down. The rates would be cheaper.
I guess so but I don't think Three mile Island was owned by PECO during that time. As far as I know PECO owns Limerick 1, Limerick 2, and has some stake in the Salem plant in New Jersery. PECO is owned by to Commonwealth Edison in Ill so who knows what's going on or where they generate power anymore.

[beenthere]

PPL would have that much spare electric that they could sale it to PECO for less then PECO pays to generate it.

[jerrod6]

PPL would have that much spare electric that they could sale it to PECO for less then PECO pays to generate it.

True but PECO would not give it's customers the discount.

During Jan/FEB in 1993? I think the area was so cold and the Delaware river was so frozen that ships could not get up the Delaware to Wilmington. At the same time PECO began rolling black and brown outs of our area. Later we find out that they were selling our electricity to DELMARVA power to ease their power situation being low on oil for generation. I worked in DE and knew that they were paying something like .4 cents a KWH for power while we were paying .135 for it in the winter and .155 in the summer.

So PECO was selling our .135 juice to Delaware customers who were paying half of what we were - same stuff- while turning our power off and giving us a line about conservation - those snakes. Everytime I think about it I get angry, so I don't trust PECO to give it's customers any type of break for anything. It's not in their history. You think a 19 or 20 SEER unit is worth looking into? My luck is that the air handler or the evaporator coil won't even fit in my basement or ducts. The size of these increases with the SEER right?

[beenthere]

The size doesn't always increase with SEER.

They sold power to Delaware at a lower price. Because it was sold in bulk.

Small town near me. Use to buy power from PPL for a low enough price, that the town charged its customers less then what PPL charged its residential customers.

[jerrod6]

[QUOTE=beenthere;3284292]The size doesn't always increase with SEER.

I currently have a Trane XL14i so I would at like to get as much efficiency as possible from it. I read some post on this site that said( I think ) that low speeds during AC help remove moisture, and higher speeds are more efficient. Since my unit goes through the Comfort-R slow speed ramp up at start up and I do see a ton of water running out of it during this time, would it be more efficient to run the blower at 450CFM per ton, instead of the 400CFM per ton it is current set to?

[beenthere]

More efficient, yes.

But, it would probably increase your indoor humidity, that you would need to set the temp lower to feel as comfortable. And end up using more electric.

[jerrod6]

More efficient, yes.

But, it would probably increase your indoor humidity, that you would need to set the temp lower to feel as comfortable. And end up using more electric.

So even Comfort R would not take care of the additional humidity?

Oh dang

[beenthere]

So even Comfort R would not take care of the additional humidity?

Oh dang
No.

Becaue it would remove less moisture onct the blower speeded up.

For every action, there is an opposite and equal reaction.