Mini Split system for my 100 year old rowhome

[jimroletter]

I have an old rowhome in a trendy part of philly. I partially remodeled the place when I bought it and now I need to finish my project.

I want to get central air put in and have been looking into a minisplit system but all of the HVAC guys I know or have dealt with on projects don't know much about them and I think tend to be biased against them, perhaps unjustly so, but I don't know.

So here is my situation.

3 story house about 2,000 sq/ft
1st floor (living/dining room + kitchen)
2nd floor (3 bedrooms + bathroom)
3rd floor (2 bedrooms)

I have a radiator heating system.

I'd like to have someone install a minisplit system.
Was thinkging it would be great to remove my radiator system to free up valuable sq/footage in the basement and get rid of all of the piping that will make my future room remodeling projects more complicated.

Before anyone says "These systems shouldn't be used for heating." just in case anyone is thinking that, I was also thinking about installing a couple direct vent fireplaces, 1 in the living room and 1 in the master bederoom perhaps.

I think the zoning of these systems should be great for efficiency. In the winter my gas bills for heating this house have topped $400/month at times and in the summer I have 6 window unit air conditioners in.

I'm hoping to end up with something like this.

2 systems that are 4 zone each. I'd like to have the outdoor pieces of the system insatlled on my roof and the 8 blowers installed in the various rooms.

Am I barking up the wrong tree here?

Does anyone know any good installers in the Philadelphia area?

I do alot of real estate investment and remodeling but I just have never dealt with these minisplits or anyone that I really trust is very knowlegable.

Jim Roletter


Please put your email in your profile

[super_tech_1]

so your going to have eight different airhandlers to maintain and fix by techs that have no idea how to work with these things. I say yeah go for it whats the worst that could happen

[jimroletter]

Obvioulsly I'm looking for techs that do know how to work with them, which is why I posted this.

[HeyBob]

There actually are quite a few companies, techs and reps on this board from Philly as well as Delaware.

Roscoe, weber, roboteq to name a few that could help. I am not sure if beenthere goes that far, he is in Lancaster County.

They should be rolling in here in just a bit!

[RoBoTeq]

Jim, I am an HVAC wholesaler in your area. If you'd like, I can have a couple of contractors that I know are good with mini splits to call on you for your situation. If you are interested, please contact me. My email address is in my profile.

[HeyBob]

Jim, I am an HVAC wholesaler in your area. If you'd like, I can have a couple of contractors that I know are good with mini splits to call on you for your situation. If you are interested, please contact me. My email address is in my profile.



aaaah yes, the beauty of networking! Just gotta love this place! :D

[qwerty hvac]

If you do go this route and install mini splits check out Sanyo. They make a very nice system with lots of options. You do not have to just mount the evaps on the wall, they have units that can be ducted and mounted above the ceiling so you don't even see them. Very efficient also with 410a.

[mchild]

jim,

Manufacturer web sites list dealers/installers in your area. Check out Daikin, Mitsubishi, Fujitsu, and Sanyo. I would stay away from the Chinese and Korean manufacturers.

You may want to consider VRV/VRF (Variable Refrigerant Volume/Flow) systems from these same manufacturers. With these systems the indoor and outdoor units are completely variable in output which will allow for each of your zones to have and maintain its own temp. With the typical row/town home there is a significant difference in the load between the lowest and most upper floor of the home. These systems will allow for these differences with the compressor being inverter driven and variable and the indoor units designed to operate from its nominal rating all the way down to 10% of that rating.

One of the nice features of the VRF systems is they are designed to have up to eight indoor units connected to one outdoor unit. And, the capacity of the indoor units can go up to 150% of the nominal rating. The higher the connection ratio the more output you get form the outdoor unit in both heat and cool mode.

The indoor units can be either ducted or ductless (which is what it sounded like you may be interested in) or a combination of both. The ducted units are fairly small in physical size.

Heat output is significantly more than a conventional heat pump and since the system is completely variable you can size it to the greater of your heating or cooling load without concern of over sizing. I know that the Daikin system performs quite well down to single digits and I they have systems installed in an area with winter temps down as low as -14*.

Daikin has fantastic support for their trained installers and customers.

[RoBoTeq]

If you do go this route and install mini splits check out Sanyo. They make a very nice system with lots of options. You do not have to just mount the evaps on the wall, they have units that can be ducted and mounted above the ceiling so you don't even see them. Very efficient also with 410a.
This is exactly what I was thinking. The Sanyo Eco-I system sounds like it would be a great fit for this type of house. One outdoor unit with a variable drive compressor feeding individually operated indoor air handlers. If there is a small attic space, one ducted air handler could condition the top floor rooms while a couple of individual wall hungs could do a center floor and the first floor could be a combination of ducted and wall hung.

[mchild]

This is exactly what I was thinking. The Sanyo Eco-I system sounds like it would be a great fit for this type of house. One outdoor unit with a variable drive compressor feeding individually operated indoor air handlers. If there is a small attic space, one ducted air handler could condition the top floor rooms while a couple of individual wall hungs could do a center floor and the first floor could be a combination of ducted and wall hung.

Yes, the Sanyo VRF system is known as Eco-i while Mitsu's is City Multi and Dainkin's is VRV-S. As of now, Fujitsu has not offered their VRF systems that they have available to the rest of the world.

[RoBoTeq]

......You may want to consider VRV/VRF (Variable Refrigerant Volume/Flow) systems from these same manufacturers. With these systems the indoor and outdoor units are completely variable in output which will allow for each of your zones to have and maintain its own temp. With the typical row/town home there is a significant difference in the load between the lowest and most upper floor of the home. These systems will allow for these differences with the compressor being inverter driven and variable and the indoor units designed to operate from its nominal rating all the way down to 10% of that rating.

One of the nice features of the VRF systems is they are designed to have up to eight indoor units connected to one outdoor unit. And, the capacity of the indoor units can go up to 150% of the nominal rating. The higher the connection ratio the more output you get form the outdoor unit in both heat and cool mode.

The indoor units can be either ducted or ductless (which is what it sounded like you may be interested in) or a combination of both. The ducted units are fairly small in physical size.

Heat output is significantly more than a conventional heat pump and since the system is completely variable you can size it to the greater of your heating or cooling load without concern of over sizing.
This is what I was referring to with the Sanyo Eco-I system, which the 5 ton system can handle up to 9 indoor air units, ducted or ductless, wall or ceiling mount.

[mchild]

This is what I was referring to with the Sanyo Eco-I system, which the 5 ton system can handle up to 9 indoor air units, ducted or ductless, wall or ceiling mount.

Sanyo has stopped calling that a 5 ton unit as the nominal cooling was only 52,900 BTU. The model number now refers to it as a "50" instead of "60" as in the past. It does allow for 9 instead of the 8 indoor units that the 4 ton systems have. The 3 ton units, which may be sufficient for the OP's application, will allow up to seven indoor units. If, as mentioned, he uses a ducted unit in the attic for the entire top floor then he may be able get by with 7 indoor units.

A room by room heat load calculation is absolutely necessary here.

[RoBoTeq]

Sanyo has stopped calling that a 5 ton unit as the nominal cooling was only 52,900 BTU. The model number now refers to it as a "50" instead of "60" as in the past. It does allow for 9 instead of the 8 indoor units that the 4 ton systems have. The 3 ton units, which may be sufficient for the OP's application, will allow up to seven indoor units. If, as mentioned, he uses a ducted unit in the attic for the entire top floor then he may be able get by with 7 indoor units.

A room by room heat load calculation is absolutely necessary here.
Agreed. And not just any tech reading the instructions installing this type of system.

[mchild]

Agreed. And not just any tech reading the instructions installing this type of system.

Only those trained by the manufacturer and has done some installs of the same system previously should be considered. I know Daikin will not allow the distributor to sell to a company that has not had the training. I think Mitsu is the same, but I am not positive about Sanyo, but believe they too require it.

[RoBoTeq]

Only those trained by the manufacturer and has done some installs of the same system previously should be considered. I know Daikin will not allow the distributor to sell to a company that has not had the training. I think Mitsu is the same, but I am not positive about Sanyo, but believe they too require it.
Sanyo does require manufacturer training of the contractor as well as Sanyo piping design per contractors specified needs. I was quite impressed with the Sanyo training in Kennesaw, GA. I certainly wouldn't want to do one of these systems without having the proper training on it.

[mchild]

Sanyo does require manufacturer training of the contractor as well as Sanyo piping design per contractors specified needs. I was quite impressed with the Sanyo training in Kennesaw, GA. I certainly wouldn't want to do one of these systems without having the proper training on it.

Thanks for confirming - and that's good to know. Are you distributing the Sanyo systems?

[RoBoTeq]

Thanks for confirming - and that's good to know. Are you distributing the Sanyo systems?
How could you tell?:D

[jimroletter]

The information and feedback I got from you all has been much appreciated. I have a local guy coming out to my home to do an assessment of the situation. He is one of the "diamond dealer/installers" of the Mitsubishi systems and has installed 100s of them. So that makes me feel comfortable to some extent that I'm not dealing with an amateur.

I'll probably try to get 3-5 people out and see who seems the most knowledgable.

[mchild]

The information and feedback I got from you all has been much appreciated. I have a local guy coming out to my home to do an assessment of the situation. He is one of the "diamond dealer/installers" of the Mitsubishi systems and has installed 100s of them. So that makes me feel comfortable to some extent that I'm not dealing with an amateur.

I'll probably try to get 3-5 people out and see who seems the most knowledgable.

Sounds like you are on the right track. Mitsu makes a good product. While there are similarities between the VRF systems and the other systems within their product line, I would make sure he has installed the VRF system if, in fact, that is what you are desiring.

The VRF/VRV systems that are suitable for residential applications are the smallest capacities of the manufacturer's commercial line of systems. Thus, they have only recently been gaining popularity for use in residential applications here in the US.

[local553]

here in st.louis in the old homes in the city they install space pac systems for a/c. air handler in attic instead of 4x10 supply it is 2 inch round supply i think the norm is around 12 to 15 runs per ton this is very high volocity blower will look for website. the evap coil very thick around 5 inches or so they are easier to rough in when you have to go through lathe ceilings these units do kick but.

[RoBoTeq]

here in st.louis in the old homes in the city they install space pac systems for a/c. air handler in attic instead of 4x10 supply it is 2 inch round supply i think the norm is around 12 to 15 runs per ton this is very high volocity blower will look for website. the evap coil very thick around 5 inches or so they are easier to rough in when you have to go through lathe ceilings these units do kick but.
High velocity systems such as Space Pak and Unico are good for certain hard to duct situations, but even a high velocity system would be limited in a three story row home situation.

Also, high velocity systems are really lacking in efficiency. You need a 15 SEER outdoor unit to get 11 SEER from a high velocity system.