NAE Upgrade to 4.0

[justjohnson]

Is there a way to tell if an NAE will handly the upgrade to 4.0(1) hardware-wise? I know the older ones won't take the upgrade due to insufficient memory or something. I just don't want to brick one doing this. TIA

[dx9100]

It is still ok to upgrade to 4.0.
It is the 4.1 that you need to check your NAE before upgrading.

[NickDeal]

You can look at the version either in the UI or on the label on the outside of the NAE case. In the case of upgrading to 4.1 if you have a NAE-XX-0 you are unable to upgrade to 4.1. However if you don't want to replace the NAE with a new one you can upgrade to the 4.0.6 version that is on the 4.1 BPP. This version gives you compatability with the 4.1 version without most of the memory intensive applications that are included at 4.1.

[freddy-b]

I thought they were giving them new ones...or is that just for the customers smart enough to realize its a screw job in the making?

[dx9100]

So you 'smart' 'Freddy-B' bought a Intel 486 machine 20 years ago and now you want to install Vista, would you ask for a refund from your Intel 486 vendor or a trade in?

[freddy-b]

So you 'smart' 'Freddy-B' bought a Intel 486 machine 20 years ago and now you want to install Vista, would you ask for a refund from your Intel 486 vendor or a trade in?

Hey.... buy our software upgrade its freaking awesome it fixes all the crap that has never worked right with MSEA from the begginning (only it doesnt)....and oh ya... BTW you need to replace all of your 4 yr old NAE's too.

Give me a break!
That argument is as weak as MSEA.

[dx9100]

Hey.... buy our software upgrade its freaking awesome it fixes all the crap that has never worked right with MSEA from the begginning (only it doesnt)....and oh ya... BTW you need to replace all of your 4 yr old NAE's too.

Give me a break!
That argument is as weak as MSEA.

Can you install Vista on a 4-years old PC and run it efficiently?

[freddy-b]

Like I said...WEAK.

Your analogy is Apples and Oranges. The more accurate analogy would be like upgrading your PC for a service pack of your current OS.

[berg2666]

I thought they were giving them new ones...or is that just for the customers smart enough to realize its a screw job in the making?



You said "GIVING" Thats a pile of laughs in itself

[freddy-b]

NAE's are the gift that keeps on giving....................too bad its not a man love cowboy movie..or it might be funny.

Its ok JCI just keep on "GIVING" Its good business for the rest of us.

[canadian_jci_guy]

Just a question, since JCI seems to get bashed about this so much, what do other vendors do with upgrades & releases?

No system is perfect in it's initial releases, and yes it can be frustrating at times being a technician to have to deal with the issues.

I am just curious as a comparison for say like Tridium, Honeywell, Siemens and what they do different.

[naerox]

Just a question, since JCI seems to get bashed about this so much, what do other vendors do with upgrades & releases?

No system is perfect in it's initial releases, and yes it can be frustrating at times being a technician to have to deal with the issues.

I am just curious as a comparison for say like Tridium, Honeywell, Siemens and what they do different.

For comparison Tridium actually works and don't require years of upgrades.
But NAE's are the greatest of them all.....yeah...

[canadian_jci_guy]

I wasn't being sarcastic, it's a question. I don't know the other systems. It's responses like yours that make me wonder why I even waste my time on here.

[freddy-b]

Just a question, since JCI seems to get bashed about this so much, what do other vendors do with upgrades & releases?

No system is perfect in it's initial releases, and yes it can be frustrating at times being a technician to have to deal with the issues.

I am just curious as a comparison for say like Tridium, Honeywell, Siemens and what they do different.

Generation to Generation ...ala NCM to NAE ...ya its common. But, a 4.0 to 4.1 upgrade in the same generation. That is poor technical planning or calculated robbery. Either way ....its sums up JCI pretty well.

[canadian_jci_guy]

The only thing I can say to that is much like Microsoft....you don't have to upgrade, and yes I know your response will be about fixes and patches that are there that should be included, trust me I have more arguments with product guys than I care to remember about that.

I have been involved in discovering a lot of the issues that require those patches so I find it exceedingly frustrating.

[berg2666]

I wasn't being sarcastic, it's a question. I don't know the other systems. It's responses like yours that make me wonder why I even waste my time on here.

Thank you

[NickDeal]

I think the microsoft is a good analogy. With windows XP you could install it on a machine that was running 3.x. With Vista you could never do that. As technology advances and different things come available doesn't it seem appropriate that you would change the hardware and software to meet the advancement. JCI put off upgrading MSEA for a long time until Microsoft finally forced the issue and they had to upgrade, and the upgrade caused the need for better hardware with the software. Sometimes it happens. They are offering upgrades at a discounted rate. As for problems with MSEA no product is perfect and as far as my experience with Tridium I can say that they are not without their faults as well.

[Cagey57]

This kinda strayed off topic but I want to add my 2 cents,

I just got (re) involved with NAE(s) this week for the first time in 2 years. I forgot just how frustrating they can be.

I can identify with both the JCI corporate guy and the independent SI (possibly an ABCS) guy. Names are omitted to protect the innocent/guilty.

Every major Mfgr. does something to make their stuff propritary, JCI just happens to be one of the most visable and due to that visability the problems are more aparent or possibly obvious. With the release of the FX-40 and subsequently the FX-20/60 JCI actually started to "Play well with others" at a much higher level. However that effectively exposed some of the historical (and in some cases present) problems and shortfalls of the NAE (aka. MSEA).

To continue the "Microsoft" analogy, upgrading from Win98 to Win98SE cost money cause it was an "Upgrade". Win2000 simply required service packs, some people were in such a hurry they actually paid for them when they did not need to. WinXP had not only service packs but also updates (patches) but those SP's and updates were free. Now if you want to go from XP to vista THAT is an upgrade !

I can distinctly remember when JCI PMI rev12.01 was to be the last rev. Then came 12.03 and thanks to XP 12.04. Except in rare cases those "Minor" upgrade were not supposed to cost the customer directly (most were done for the cost of labor only).

A major upgrade , eg. PMI 11.xx to 12.xx, SCT(NAE) 3 to 4, FX 1.0/1/2 to 2.0 typically "Cost the Customer Money" software/license wise.

(Finally my 2 cents) Give me a break, Rev 4.0 to Rev 4.1 should NOT cost the customer money for the software/hardware. At some level that has to qualify as unethical.

I will be quiet now (no more post on this thread, promise). Thanks for listening/reading.

[freddy-b]

I think the microsoft is a good analogy. With windows XP you could install it on a machine that was running 3.x. With Vista you could never do that. As technology advances and different things come available doesn't it seem appropriate that you would change the hardware and software to meet the advancement. JCI put off upgrading MSEA for a long time until Microsoft finally forced the issue and they had to upgrade, and the upgrade caused the need for better hardware with the software. Sometimes it happens. They are offering upgrades at a discounted rate. As for problems with MSEA no product is perfect and as far as my experience with Tridium I can say that they are not without their faults as well.


Please...Give me the list of revolutionary enhancements between 4.0 and 4.1 to justify buying new NAE's.

Boy... this thread should be a wake up call to any potential or current JCI customer on how they plan to rake your asses over the fire..with a sanctioned criminal policy.

Tridium is not perfect, but compared to MSEA....its not close. MSEA is not remotely in the same league as Tridium or 90% of the rest of the players in the field for that matter. Its a joke.

[dave2142]

Whether any of the JCI guys want to admit it the truth is it is a strong arm tactic. And yes I am an ex JCI guy who remembers last year when we were told that JCI would only support 2 revs back and that a new rev would be coming out every 6 months. So basically within a year and a half of having a new system installed you would be unable to get support. That to me is strong arm no way about it. While going from XP to Vista would be a charge from Microsoft, all of the updates would not be a charge for XP nor would they tell you sorry you do not have the required updates for us to support you. And if they did oh well it is free to get them. It would not be so bad if the cost from JCI to update was not so high. How can you justify thousands of dollars to update one NAE that takes you at most a couple hours to do. And fixes issues that JCI failed to remedy because they were to anxious to get it on the market. I worked there from 2.0 into 4.0 and saw no real reason to justify going from 2.0 to any other rev. But you did get the new pretty picture of the JCI main office on one of the newer ones when you log on so I suppose that was worth it.

[NickDeal]

For all these "problems" that are mentioned customers in my area are delivered with working products that do what they need them to do. And as far as Tridium goes, it works most of the time. I have met really good Tridium programmers and really bad ones. As far as Johnson goes I would like to learn the Tridium system they can do alot of cool things, but Johnson won't allow it. As far as upgrading, if a customer doesn't want or need it then fine. It comes from the factory with the new images on them so either they get downgraded or the customer pays for atleast the ADS/ADX upgrade.

[the maestro]

Back to the original topic, how can you tell if the NAE is able to be upgraded to 4.1? What will the model number sticker look like on the NAE?

[NickDeal]

The short answer if you look on the bottom or side of the NAE look for the product tag and if the Model is MS-NAEXXXX-1 you are good if it is -0 no go. For example MS-NAE5520-1 good, MS-NAE4510-0 no good.

[the maestro]

what about a -2?

[oldhweller]

Then you should be twice as good!!!!!!!!!

[NickDeal]

The -2 applies if you have either a new NAE-35 or NAE-45. You are good for the upgrade in that instance.

[berg2666]

Whether any of the JCI guys want to admit it the truth is it is a strong arm tactic. And yes I am an ex JCI guy who remembers last year when we were told that JCI would only support 2 revs back and that a new rev would be coming out every 6 months. So basically within a year and a half of having a new system installed you would be unable to get support. That to me is strong arm no way about it. While going from XP to Vista would be a charge from Microsoft, all of the updates would not be a charge for XP nor would they tell you sorry you do not have the required updates for us to support you. And if they did oh well it is free to get them. It would not be so bad if the cost from JCI to update was not so high. How can you justify thousands of dollars to update one NAE that takes you at most a couple hours to do. And fixes issues that JCI failed to remedy because they were to anxious to get it on the market. I worked there from 2.0 into 4.0 and saw no real reason to justify going from 2.0 to any other rev. But you did get the new pretty picture of the JCI main office on one of the newer ones when you log on so I suppose that was worth it.

It is not the JCI main office, it is another building in Milwaukee, but I forgot the name of it. Being the main office is UGLY

[dave2142]

Your right it is the office downtown where training classes are held. But everyone knows it as the only one they ever go to.

[mstpslave]

:D
For comparison Tridium actually works and don't require years of upgrades.
But NAE's are the greatest of them all.....yeah...

naerox,
It is a fact that Tridium will simply rewrite the entire products software and make the programming incompatible with their older system.

It is also a fact that Tridium was also taken to court for intellectual property infringement by several of the Big Boys. They lost and are now unable to integrate to those systems unless the product is actually bought from one of the Big Boys with a new label on it.

Apparently you are fond of companies that get sued for patent infringement! But that's OK - From the sound of your 2 posts It is obvious that you do not have a great deal of experience.

Read up on some of the legal actions that have been taken in the past and I think you may learn something that you never knew. Just an FYI, the new owners of the Tridium product had nothing to do with the past legal actions that I spoke of. They are clean as the pure driven snow in that respect. But, just try and get a copy of the software for programming their proprietary controllers, or even a copy of the software manuals........ good luck.

Oh and BTW, since you are now bashing some of the Big Boys jobs - would you care to name sites and people to contact re. the bad experiences they had? I doubt you will because there is a lot of BS out there that would not hold water if the situation was actually filled with facts instead of innuendo. Plus, the giant company you speak of does so many jobs there is no way that you could be familiar with even .0001% of what they are putting in all over the world. There are good jobs and there are bad jobs. Name some of the bad ones if you have anything to say.

The controls industry sucks more today than it ever has. Oh how I long for the days of the truly open systems. By that, I mean pneumatics.

Most vendors hide their software and bend the customer over to get a copy of it. At least the Big Boy that your talking about publishes all of it's software manuals. Most of the little guys - including your apparent favorite, locks it up in some vault for viewing by only the anointed dealer network. It is also a fact that it will cost you thousands of dollars to become certified by those kind gentlemen.

ALL control companies are very bad apples when it comes to building caveats into their systems that tie you to their overpriced products. That's why BACnet & Lon are so good for the industry. In my opinion BACnet will win the protocol war though. That's because the Big Boys can manipulate the level of integration that is possible. It takes a Philadelphia lawyer to figure out some of the manufacturers specs. Plus the specs are always a moving target. Just read the disclaimers that come with their cheaply made boxes of horror.

BACnet will win but it is going to take a generation of training techs to notice the difference and demand consistency. Lon was awesome but it required that you commit to buying junk that could be pulled out from under your feet at any moment. That is why the Big Boys are putting Lon out of business. It is not fair, but it is happening. ;)

[mstpslave]

Whether any of the JCI guys want to admit it the truth is it is a strong arm tactic. And yes I am an ex JCI guy who remembers last year when we were told that JCI would only support 2 revs back and that a new rev would be coming out every 6 months. So basically within a year and a half of having a new system installed you would be unable to get support. That to me is strong arm no way about it. While going from XP to Vista would be a charge from Microsoft, all of the updates would not be a charge for XP nor would they tell you sorry you do not have the required updates for us to support you. And if they did oh well it is free to get them. It would not be so bad if the cost from JCI to update was not so high. How can you justify thousands of dollars to update one NAE that takes you at most a couple hours to do. And fixes issues that JCI failed to remedy because they were to anxious to get it on the market. I worked there from 2.0 into 4.0 and saw no real reason to justify going from 2.0 to any other rev. But you did get the new pretty picture of the JCI main office on one of the newer ones when you log on so I suppose that was worth it.

dave2142,
I see that you "worked there from 2.0 into 4.0 and saw no real reason to justify going from 2.0 to any other rev". Interesting take because there were many BACnet enhancements as well as the demand limiting feature added among other things. Of course you would have to be involved at a higher level of programming / integration than you apparently were to notice them.

Perhaps your just an angry ex JCI guy who was cut from the team. Maybe your POd because they gave you too much work to do. I've heard of those things happening before, for sure. However I've not heard anyone who really knew the product say there was no difference between 2.0 & 4.0

My honest opinion is that you have no idea what you are talking about. :rolleyes:

[mstpslave]

It is not the JCI main office, it is another building in Milwaukee, but I forgot the name of it. Being the main office is UGLY

berg2666,
It is the "Brengel Center" named after Fred L. Brengel, the sixth President of The Johnson Service Company. He was responsible for a great deal of the growth of JCI. Fred fought to keep the Building Controls division when others in the company wanted to sell it off as unprofitable. Fred was a visionary who saw the coming of building automation based on computer controls rather than pneumatics. It is a good thing too because the Automotive side of the house is no longer carrying the company but rather the Controls Division. At least for now! :)

[freddy-b]

:D

naerox,
It is a fact that Tridium will simply rewrite the entire products software and make the programming incompatible with their older system.

It is also a fact that Tridium was also taken to court for intellectual property infringement by several of the Big Boys. They lost and are now unable to integrate to those systems unless the product is actually bought from one of the Big Boys with a new label on it.

Apparently you are fond of companies that get sued for patent infringement! But that's OK - From the sound of your 2 posts It is obvious that you do not have a great deal of experience.

Read up on some of the legal actions that have been taken in the past and I think you may learn something that you never knew. Just an FYI, the new owners of the Tridium product had nothing to do with the past legal actions that I spoke of. They are clean as the pure driven snow in that respect. But, just try and get a copy of the software for programming their proprietary controllers, or even a copy of the software manuals........ good luck.

Oh and BTW, since you are now bashing some of the Big Boys jobs - would you care to name sites and people to contact re. the bad experiences they had? I doubt you will because there is a lot of BS out there that would not hold water if the situation was actually filled with facts instead of innuendo. Plus, the giant company you speak of does so many jobs there is no way that you could be familiar with even .0001% of what they are putting in all over the world. There are good jobs and there are bad jobs. Name some of the bad ones if you have anything to say.

The controls industry sucks more today than it ever has. Oh how I long for the days of the truly open systems. By that, I mean pneumatics.

Most vendors hide their software and bend the customer over to get a copy of it. At least the Big Boy that your talking about publishes all of it's software manuals. Most of the little guys - including your apparent favorite, locks it up in some vault for viewing by only the anointed dealer network. It is also a fact that it will cost you thousands of dollars to become certified by those kind gentlemen.

ALL control companies are very bad apples when it comes to building caveats into their systems that tie you to their overpriced products. That's why BACnet & Lon are so good for the industry. In my opinion BACnet will win the protocol war though. That's because the Big Boys can manipulate the level of integration that is possible. It takes a Philadelphia lawyer to figure out some of the manufacturers specs. Plus the specs are always a moving target. Just read the disclaimers that come with their cheaply made boxes of horror.

BACnet will win but it is going to take a generation of training techs to notice the difference and demand consistency. Lon was awesome but it required that you commit to buying junk that could be pulled out from under your feet at any moment. That is why the Big Boys are putting Lon out of business. It is not fair, but it is happening. ;)

The "big boy" in question will be gone as we know it soon enough. Its going to be a rebranded world...Much Better product.. minus the huge overhead. Think about it for a sec. You are on a sinking ship with a broken rudder. Ride it down if you wish.

[dave2142]

First off MSTPSLAVE not sure what you title is but I was a systems engineer so probably little above you. And yes they did BRING BACK demand limiting something they removed and then realized people might actually use it. But I do not know of any jobs where it actually got used. I knew the product very well and did the first mstp jobs in our area to get JCI stamp of approval for sales of the product. I meant what I said from a cost perspective. Yes if you were getting a new job then the newer revs were great. However no reason at all for a customer with say 2.2 n2 building to spend the ridiculous amount of money JCI wanted to upgrade just not a justified cost. And I can say that our branch was notorious for over charging and not delivering. Constantly selling a Mercedes and giving the customer a Buick. I hold no real anger towards JCI and actually think they have some good software. The NAE point schedule, SCT, Room schedule are just a few to name that are excellent tools. What they fail to hold in high regard is the customer and how to take care of them and JCI employees.

[mstpslave]

:D
The "big boy" in question will be gone as we know it soon enough. Its going to be a rebranded world...Much Better product.. minus the huge overhead. Think about it for a sec. You are on a sinking ship with a broken rudder. Ride it down if you wish.

freddy-b,
There you go again, assuming all sorts of things. For your information I do not install or program controls. Have you ever run into the guy who provides the information to the building owner about whether or not the system is actually working? I do not give a darn what you put in, I just help you get it right. If you do not get it right, I'll help the owner hold your check!

Yes I did program many brands of controls in the past. And I have met tons of bitter guys like you. Really, I could care less that you stayed at a company so long it has made you bitter for life.

I do not care what brand or protocol it is. But the junk better work or no "Bling-Bling" for freddy-b! I see you as a simple greedy contractor bent on revenge for your decision to work for JCI. Just remember "You can't take it with you".

I happen to like JCI because the literature is available freely and it helps me do my job. Plus it has been my experience that when an issue is properly described and documented, there is no trouble getting it fixed. And don't give me any BS about how the install looks, because that is not my area. They have electrical and mechanical inspectors for that. They don't do my job, I don't do theirs.

You have my sympathy for following my sorry behind around! Apparently the caveman wants some meat. ROFLOL :p

[freddy-b]

:D

freddy-b,
There you go again, assuming all sorts of things. For your information I do not install or program controls. Have you ever run into the guy who provides the information to the building owner about whether or not the system is actually working? I do not give a darn what you put in, I just help you get it right. If you do not get it right, I'll help the owner hold your check!

Yes I did program many brands of controls in the past. And I have met tons of bitter guys like you. Really, I could care less that you stayed at a company so long it has made you bitter for life.

I do not care what brand or protocol it is. But the junk better work or no "Bling-Bling" for freddy-b! I see you as a simple greedy contractor bent on revenge for your decision to work for JCI. Just remember "You can't take it with you".

I happen to like JCI because the literature is available freely and it helps me do my job. Plus it has been my experience that when an issue is properly described and documented, there is no trouble getting it fixed. And don't give me any BS about how the install looks, because that is not my area. They have electrical and mechanical inspectors for that. They don't do my job, I don't do theirs.

You have my sympathy for following my sorry behind around! Apparently the caveman wants some meat. ROFLOL :p

Right!
If that truly is your job, I can see why you don't like my kind!;) And why you love JCI...cause they consistently make your job cake...say no more! At least one way or another... the truth came out. Good for you. Where do you buy your SCT, and CCT software?? Hmmmmm ??? your story is either super hypocritical from a "Greedy" POV or complete BS...either way its entertaining...:D

[mstpslave]

First off MSTPSLAVE not sure what you title is but I was a systems engineer so probably little above you. And yes they did BRING BACK demand limiting something they removed and then realized people might actually use it. But I do not know of any jobs where it actually got used. I knew the product very well and did the first mstp jobs in our area to get JCI stamp of approval for sales of the product. I meant what I said from a cost perspective. Yes if you were getting a new job then the newer revs were great. However no reason at all for a customer with say 2.2 n2 building to spend the ridiculous amount of money JCI wanted to upgrade just not a justified cost. And I can say that our branch was notorious for over charging and not delivering. Constantly selling a Mercedes and giving the customer a Buick. I hold no real anger towards JCI and actually think they have some good software. The NAE point schedule, SCT, Room schedule are just a few to name that are excellent tools. What they fail to hold in high regard is the customer and how to take care of them and JCI employees.

dave2142,
I remember the days when the job was called CORE engineer. So maybe the same as you but with a bit more experience. Not really a big deal. My issue was your rant about there being no real reason to upgrade from 2.0 to 4.0. You were way off mark there. There were reasons if you had the requirements.

FYI, the NAE never had demand limiting taken away. The original releases did not have it and the 4.0 release did. Now if your talking about the NCM, that is different. It had demand limiting for a long long time. And it worked great!

I've heard stories about how when the old CORE guys left, the field guys would come in and fill the newly created position of Systems Engineer. Unfortunately a lot of those guys left because the job was way too much for them to handle. Other guys could do it but felt that they could make more money elsewhere. Either is reason enough to move on. :)

[mstpslave]

Right!
If that truly is your job, I can see why you don't like my kind!;) And why you love JCI...cause they consistently make your job cake...say no more! At least one way or another... the truth came out. Good for you. Where do you buy your SCT, and CCT software?? Hmmmmm ??? your story is either super hypocritical from a "Greedy" POV or complete BS...either way its entertaining...:D

freddy-b,
My posts are intended to be entertaining and informative! Thank You, that was very nice.

You have likely read my stuff before if your well read in the industry. I really like this place though. Much more freedom and we all seem to lather on the sarcasm to the ^10! It is fun to joust with you but my schedule will take me from this place again soon. But I'll be around for a while, and then back in a few months. You see the greatest construction projects are not necessarily in the US. Ton's of money overseas these days and the interesting cultures to be experienced are simply a blast.

As for where do I get my "software"? People just let me use theirs. I think they want help in understanding how it works, and I am very good at that. :)

I see that you visited my profile. Are you wanting to contact me? I'm flattered. :o

[freddy-b]

I see that you visited my profile. Are you wanting to contact me? I'm flattered. :o

Na....I'm good.

[dave2142]

Correct the NAE did not have demand limiting. I do miss some of the software and capability of the JCI systems but do not miss the BS that goes along with the job. I have not had the pleasure of working with Tridium but from what I have seen working with integrators and others it appears to be a very nice system. In the end what matters is that the customer gets what he paid for and that it is a system that does not lock them into one company. That is what I like about the Tridium concept of integration where you can connect to about anything. I am at Trane now and even they have partnered with Lynxspring which is basically Tridium under a different name. The future is going to be integration and controls not in locking a customer into one device like the NAE, or BCU. It is going to require better customer service and not just a name. People are more aware and price worthy now than ever before. JCI is like many others still under the old concept that market share equals better profits and that customer service is not needed. I do know about the old CORE engineers by the way and worked with some that became LSS and some that became SE. But when you can leave JCI as a systems engineer and go to Trane for 15k a year more as BAS tech and a lot less hassle and responsibility plus hourly pay it does not take a rocket scientist to make the choice. When a manager tells you ya sucker you accepted the job at 10k a year less than you should have and ya your skill level is tops and reviews are excellent but oh well we had a bad year so tough luck on making any more money it really ticks you off.

[dave2142]

As an outsider looking in I would have to say this is dumb. Loyalties should lie with the customer and ensuring you are meeting their needs. From what I've seen of the compant in question that rarely happens. I have seen them on new construction work fail to come out to the site to correct problems but once the warranty period is over they are more than happy to sell you an upgrade or correct problems that existed from install and charge you for it. You shouldn't get so upset with freddy-b's comments. You should correct the service issues, treat customers with respect and start admitting your mistakes.

This is the best quote I have seen on here in a long time. This is what the majority of the old JCI guys I know are talking about. Somewhere down the line JCI forgot this major part of being in business. And in all fairness it is not just JCI but big business as a whole in this country. I have not seen this yet at Trane at least on the contracting controls side do not know about the service side and if and when I do it will be time to go somewhere else. After all it is the customer who puts food on your table not the company you work for. I am sure not one person on this forum would like to be treated the way most big businesses treat their customers.

[mstpslave]

Correct the NAE did not have demand limiting. I do miss some of the software and capability of the JCI systems but do not miss the BS that goes along with the job. I have not had the pleasure of working with Tridium but from what I have seen working with integrators and others it appears to be a very nice system. In the end what matters is that the customer gets what he paid for and that it is a system that does not lock them into one company. That is what I like about the Tridium concept of integration where you can connect to about anything. I am at Trane now and even they have partnered with Lynxspring which is basically Tridium under a different name. The future is going to be integration and controls not in locking a customer into one device like the NAE, or BCU. It is going to require better customer service and not just a name. People are more aware and price worthy now than ever before. JCI is like many others still under the old concept that market share equals better profits and that customer service is not needed. I do know about the old CORE engineers by the way and worked with some that became LSS and some that became SE. But when you can leave JCI as a systems engineer and go to Trane for 15k a year more as BAS tech and a lot less hassle and responsibility plus hourly pay it does not take a rocket scientist to make the choice. When a manager tells you ya sucker you accepted the job at 10k a year less than you should have and ya your skill level is tops and reviews are excellent but oh well we had a bad year so tough luck on making any more money it really ticks you off.

dave2142,
Nice post, fairly accurate. Don't really agree with the part about the concept of market share thought though. More innuendo than fact I think. Who the heck really knows what goes on in the minds of the corporate wonks? IMHO they are only interested in month over month or at best quarterly profits. I really don't even think that at that level they actually know how to create profit anyway. But they sure do know how to make demands and set deadlines.

One thing is certain: If you work on any sort of construction project and you are on site doing the work.......... a salaried position stinks. There are so many variables that there is a better than 50% chance that you will be working for free at times. The only people who should be taking that kind of risk are the Sales Executives and PMs. They have the ability to head off disaster before it strikes on a job. However all to often they will simply disappear once the job is started. You see, being around means being accountable for details.

Sales Executives and PMs should feel the heat if the job tanks. The only thing that the Field Technician should fear is being let go for ineptness. If they are any good, the Sales Executive and PM should fear their technician leaving. However the bad economy gives the Field Technician a little less clout. Remember, the Sales Executive finds the ingredients, the Field Technician makes the soup! We have a shortage of ingredients today.

Some of the big boys are merging the PM and Field Technician position. That is putting a lot of stress on the PM / Field Technician person. In most cases this approach is not working out. This has been my experience at the large job level. But it does seem to be the right thing for the very small job. Doesn't that make sense?

This would be my advice to anyone presented with the PM / Field Technician combined position on any jobs that run over say $35,000.00 total cost, including electrical and pipe-fitting. RUN!!!!! You are about to become burn out and bitter! Then you will come here and post smack about your former employer for years after you have left the job because your psyche has experienced irreversible trauma. After that you may even over do it on jobs and work too hard trying to prove how it should be done.

Just enjoy the industry....... it really is a fun place to work. But be careful about running down there to get that cash when someone whispers in your ear about bonus $$. Once locked into that salary on a construction site things rapidly deteriorate and that would include your attitude.

Re. the CORE to LSS thing. It is my opinion that any CORE guy who took an LSS job was demoted and should either be grateful to still have a job or POd that they did not have the skills to be an SE. I've heard that the SE is a pretty good job but not for everyone. Same goes for Licensed Professional Engineer. Many would like to be a PE but not all can cut it. It is really no big deal. I know Pipe-Fitters that make a whole lot more than PEs.

PS - It is a good thing that Trane partnered with someone because their controls are antique garbage. Trane controls will get the job done and are reliable. But the technology ........... well... it's at the level of a caveman. :rolleyes:

[dave2142]

Your are right Trane controls are antique but reliable and some of us are working to get them more up to date. Trust me I was amazed at how behind Trane is when I came to work here. And yes it is an excellent industry and you get the pleasure of working with many talented people.

[dave2142]

I am finally in a position where I can go to work each day with a good attitude of trying to make things better and do more with the technology and work directly with the customer. Not to mention I have a branch which will listen to me and work to make things better. Heck they even let me build a test lab so that I can experiment and work with different software and sequences on a live system without being at the job site. That is way beyond anything JCI would consider at least at the branch I worked in. For some like you and others the JCI way is working and more power to you. I thank them for the training I received and experience but they direction I saw them going was not my way so I left. A lot of the guys I worked with still call me for help and I sometimes them for help or just to see how things are going.

[mstpslave]

Your are right Trane controls are antique but reliable and some of us are working to get them more up to date. Trust me I was amazed at how behind Trane is when I came to work here. And yes it is an excellent industry and you get the pleasure of working with many talented people.

I'm glad to hear that at least someone here is enjoying the journey. Gosh, there are a ton of worse things to do for a living than work on controls. Some have been called to the "dark side" and are now selling the stuff! :eek:

Trane needs a partner to fix up their older controls line. They have pretty much squeezed all the life out of that lemon that there going to get. Don't be surprised if your company is acquired or acquires someone else. It is the best and most logical move to tune up their control offerings. There was talk at one time of Trane acquiring the JCI controls division. Then there was a rumor of JCI acquiring Trane. That is unlikely now that JCI has York.

I would look for something to happen soon though. The economy is just beginning to rebound and the smart money will want to position itself to capitalize on the renewed economy. Trane's controls need to be tuned up soon to take advantage of the upcoming opportunities. Something should break soon. Maybe Trane will pick up one of the stronger independents but I think it is more likely to be sold. I have heard that Ingersoll Rand does not consider Trane to be one of their best moneymakers. :D

[naerox]

:D

naerox,
It is a fact that Tridium will simply rewrite the entire products software and make the programming incompatible with their older system.

It is also a fact that Tridium was also taken to court for intellectual property infringement by several of the Big Boys. They lost and are now unable to integrate to those systems unless the product is actually bought from one of the Big Boys with a new label on it.

Apparently you are fond of companies that get sued for patent infringement! But that's OK - From the sound of your 2 posts It is obvious that you do not have a great deal of experience.

Read up on some of the legal actions that have been taken in the past and I think you may learn something that you never knew. Just an FYI, the new owners of the Tridium product had nothing to do with the past legal actions that I spoke of. They are clean as the pure driven snow in that respect. But, just try and get a copy of the software for programming their proprietary controllers, or even a copy of the software manuals........ good luck.

Oh and BTW, since you are now bashing some of the Big Boys jobs - would you care to name sites and people to contact re. the bad experiences they had? I doubt you will because there is a lot of BS out there that would not hold water if the situation was actually filled with facts instead of innuendo. Plus, the giant company you speak of does so many jobs there is no way that you could be familiar with even .0001% of what they are putting in all over the world. There are good jobs and there are bad jobs. Name some of the bad ones if you have anything to say.

The controls industry sucks more today than it ever has. Oh how I long for the days of the truly open systems. By that, I mean pneumatics.

Most vendors hide their software and bend the customer over to get a copy of it. At least the Big Boy that your talking about publishes all of it's software manuals. Most of the little guys - including your apparent favorite, locks it up in some vault for viewing by only the anointed dealer network. It is also a fact that it will cost you thousands of dollars to become certified by those kind gentlemen.

ALL control companies are very bad apples when it comes to building caveats into their systems that tie you to their overpriced products. That's why BACnet & Lon are so good for the industry. In my opinion BACnet will win the protocol war though. That's because the Big Boys can manipulate the level of integration that is possible. It takes a Philadelphia lawyer to figure out some of the manufacturers specs. Plus the specs are always a moving target. Just read the disclaimers that come with their cheaply made boxes of horror.

BACnet will win but it is going to take a generation of training techs to notice the difference and demand consistency. Lon was awesome but it required that you commit to buying junk that could be pulled out from under your feet at any moment. That is why the Big Boys are putting Lon out of business. It is not fair, but it is happening. ;)



Wow must have hit a nerve. I didn't know companies still brainwashed employees. Idiot mentality like that will never work in my buildings. As far as BACNET winning out over LON that would be only if you can brainwash customers into believing BACNET is truly open. It is not that it will take training a generation for BACNET rather it will take a generation to try and convince people to give up an open LON system.

[freddy-b]

We're goners.

[dx9100]

mstpslave,
why watse your time with wankers?

[freddy-b]

mstpslave,
why watse your time with wankers?

Thats not fair..all JCI guys dont share your habits ;) Do they?

[justjohnson]

Any truth to the rumor that JCI will be abandoning the NAE and moving forward with selling just the FX20/60?

[berg2666]

Any truth to the rumor that JCI will be abandoning the NAE and moving forward with selling just the FX20/60?


nope