CARRIER DDC

[Heating_Guy]

Hi I was hoping someone could help me out I'm very interested in the Carrier product but I have some question that I'm having trouble finding if some one could answer them it would be greatly appreciated.

(1)What's the name of primary software package thay use ?

(2)What operating system for software?

(3)What type of programming do thay use (Drag-Drop,Block or Line Based)?

(4)Management and control available (Scheduling,Loop Tuning or Energy Management or all?)

(5)How many different types of primary controllers?

(6)How much memory in the primary controller?

[noskilltech]

I had a blue oval on my workshirt for quite a few years. My suggestion is if you're going to get into the control market, avoid control systems of equipment manufactures. Go with a product that is manufactured by a control company. The support is 100% better than the equipment factory.

Put it this way, we had a control dept at the branch I worked at. We wouldn't even sell CCN unless the customer absolutely had to have it and it was specd on the job. Even then, we would try to talk them out of it.

I'm not trying to offend anyone here, but I've seen both sides of the fence on this one.

[sysint]

Carrier product is primarily proprietary.

However, they are slowly integrating to Automated Logic. What I wonder is how the ALC guys are taking Carrier calling the shots for them. My guess is they aren't taking it very well...

I'd find something FLEXIBLE. Here in the US most specifying engineers blindly follow ASHRAE and write horrible canned and incomplete specifications. Keeping that in mind you will want at least something bacnet. Since these specifying engineers typically aren't doing anything with integration you can make it work because fieldbus bacnet is not very good of a system with high node concentration from a performance standpoint.

So, from a networking and fieldbus node concentration standpoint (if you actually are integrating) you could use a LON line.

[grgjohno]

I found the Carrier stuff easy to learn on, as it was primarily orientated towards control of HVAC equipment, without getting too involved in all the added capabilities that a TRUE control system is capable of. It satisfied most tasks of a simple control system and if setup correctly was actually quite robust.
I ran into it's limitations on complex routines that required large custom built programs written, and I found the processor wasn't really upto scratch, in memory and processing power.

Try this link for some of the info I think you are looking for, it's a bit dated but it may help you.
http://www.ddc-online.org

Sysint is right and these days it would be a wise move to learn about a more 'open' protocol control system.

Carriers I-Vu (ALC Bacnet) is OK as a frontend package, for the Carrier CCN, but not much good for anything else.

ALC actually seem to have a larger say in the direction of the Carrier Control System.
Carrier Controls seem to be relegated to purely 'equipment based' with capability of connecting to other protocols.
Carriers Control product seems to be increasing in price (ComfortView is amazingly expensive now), and as it is older technology, it looks like they will soon be trying to push customers onto their new I-Vu platform.

I am not recommending Carrier product to any of my clients anymore, which is kind of a shame as I spent a few years working with it.
I'm now actively looking for a new product line to offer customers.....

[okfrommyhouse]

While I'm sometimes in awe of the technical range of some of the posters on this website, is it possible to just reply to the original question without some bias toward a particular protocol or controls mfg?

The reality of the Carrier/ALC thing is that Carrier was actually forward thinking in this respect by giving ALC the driver seat and rolled all the factory CCN controls guys into ALC employees.

The biggest problem they have is trying to phase in the new CCN, (or Carrier Open - or whatever the marketing guys are calling it this week) controls while supporting the older CCN stuff, (with all the equipment PICS) and juggling that with the independant ALC network of dealers who make UTC a lot of money.

A very short response to your six questions is; the proprietary CCN line is almost at the end of its lifespan and not a good long-term solution. As such Carrier hasn't officially released any new of the new line of controllers but you can bet they will look a lot like ALC stuff. While they are beta testing, I couldn't find any published hardware specs to give you.

That being said it'll be BACnet, probably program like ALC , be real new but with little track record.

not much help, sorry.

[Ausccn]

Good input from all,

I as (noskilltech) said, I haved worked for the big blue oval for 27 years + and I am now at an ALC dealership.

Carrier.....great product and from some systems that I have seen the system works great for standard A/C. Good canned algo's and with their programming language (BEST++) in the comfort controller range is very flexible but the 6400/1600 has been around since 1995 and just think what Windows 95 was like then and now.....say no more.

i-Vu has some good capabilities but ALC is running the show now and Carrier seems to only have access to limited product which from what I have been told will only be MSTP not ARCnet.

Well I must have left at the right time !! the problem I think they have is that they cant get rid of CCN until all chiller platforms change to either ALC hardware or at least go BACnet etc. Even though they have a pretty straight forward BACnet/Modbus & LON interface. They do make chillers in the US, China & France.

I see that a lot of LON people complain about the Carrier LON interface but at least it is based on standard LON profiles but LON being an open protocol has many different flavours and Carrier seems to get crap layed on them for having an interface that is not upto the LON standard..

If you are going to take on Carrier controls then you will need the correct tools. From what I hear in the US they are not that cheap...but they wont even sell Servicetool to anyone but Carrier personnel here in Aus, so at least you US contractors can buy it!!.

i-Vu has opened Carrier upto other protocols and systems and from a frontend user it all has the same look and feel as ALC which as far as I have seen is a good user friendly interface that does a good job for what it was designed to do and it is not Windows™ based.

As we say in Aus...my 2 bobs worth.....

Aus....:D