2003 Carrier 50AK Package Unit Controls

[simsd]

I have a customer that has a few Carrier 50AK 50 ton units that were built in 2003. These do not have any type of Carrier controller on them. We are using a JCI UNT to control these and are resetting the supply air temperature based on the return air temp and then increasing or decreasing the temp through a reset board in the unit that accepts a 4-20mA signal. There is a microprocessor board on the unit that seems to control everything internal to the unit (unloaders, economizer etc.). This board drives us nuts because it's like it has a "mind of it's own" and we have no access to it. When the units were first installed, a guy from the Carrier rep came by a few times and had some DOS based software on a calculator/keyboard "minicomputer". He indicated that he was one of the only people that had that software. He did saw we could buy it but we never did.

Can someone tell me what we can to in order to move into the "90's" let alone the millennium with these units. I would like to find a way to put something on these so we gather the data out of the units so we know what's going on. It does appear to have a plug in CCN connection.

[noskilltech]

That is the main base board you are talking about. I believe that there are com terminals on the board, but it's been awhile since I've actually looked at one. The jack you are referring to is to connect carrier's service tool software to reconfigure setpoints in the board.

Economizer control on those units are always an issue. I would suggest scrapping the carrier board all together and putting your own controls on the units. Not the cheapest thing to do, but in the long run, your customer will thank you for it.

[simsd]

I can do my own controls, but there are unloaders etc. on the board which I don;t want to get into. We recently did some CCN o BACnet translator cards with the newer units with the Comfortlink controllers and that turned out okay. I wonder if I can use these translators on these boards.

[noskilltech]

If I'm not mistaken, the communication terminals on the MBB's (if they exist) should be comfortlink protocol (rs-485). If I get time this weekend, I'll dig out my CCN manuals and comfort link manuals for the RTU's that have been collecting dust in my garage and look it up for you.

[simsd]

That would be great. I think you are correct, plus we have Service Tool V so we'll see what we can do.

Are you on the east coast or west?

[Dallas Duster]

That particular RTU has what is called a Conquest board it uses the standard CCN operation. I don`t think there is any way that it can be integrated like the comfortlink board can.It has the ability to be controlled like a conventional 2 stage unit. The VFD is used is stand alone . I would put a controller without gutting it and run it like a conventional stat. That`s the best I can think of. This 50AK are not the 50AK`s you like i`m sure simed.

Also needed to add what do you mean when you said the unit has a mind of it`s own?

[simsd]

Well, we managed to get into the Carrier board today and were able to see the real time info via Service Tool V and connecting to the three terminals for the CCN on the board in question.

We spoke to the controls tech support line and they felt that of we can gain access with the Service tool, then we should be able to gain access with the translator cards.

Any thoughts?

[Dallas Duster]

Well, we managed to get into the Carrier board today and were able to see the real time info via Service Tool V and connecting to the three terminals for the CCN on the board in question.

We spoke to the controls tech support line and they felt that of we can gain access with the Service tool, then we should be able to gain access with the translator cards.

Any thoughts?

I just have never seen anybody translator card on a conquest board it might very well be possible. Let me know what you find out?

[noskilltech]

If you can access the MBB with service tool through the three comm terminals then you should be fine to use the translators. It would set up pretty similar to setting up a chiller.

[sysint]

Well, I agree with noskilltech on the Custer rooftop (I mean Conquest- little slip there) I'd rip on this one. What I don't remember is the unloaders being electric. No matter, because if they are electric then they are simply for staging I'm thinking. If so, wiring is not a big deal. Maybe you can even simplify and go with their mechanical unloaders.

I think I've already pitched all my Carrier literature with all the notes.... The only thing I think I have left is a manual(s) I have together with the 4-5 generations of VVT. I'll check.

[Dallas Duster]

Well, I agree with noskilltech on the Custer rooftop (I mean Conquest- little slip there) I'd rip on this one. What I don't remember is the unloaders being electric. No matter, because if they are electric then they are simply for staging I'm thinking. If so, wiring is not a big deal. Maybe you can even simplify and go with their mechanical unloaders.

I think I've already pitched all my Carrier literature with all the notes.... The only thing I think I have left is a manual(s) I have together with the 4-5 generations of VVT. I'll check.

Why don`t you answer Freddy`s question and stop ripping on everybody elses product!!

[sysint]

Good Listener- If you knew this particular RTU you would know I'm being most generous with the commentary. Besides I'm agreeing with somebody else and don't consider it a complete rip as I'm not telling the guy to remove the equipment. Personally, I really like those 06 series compressors. Carrier used to have this G model (I think) with the oval heads that was soooo quiet running. Beautiful design I think. And, on this RTU, the compressors are the only good thing about it.

It is plagued by OA issues, air leaks, a VFD in the blower section air stream, burner issues, bad condenser design and more screws in the RTU than the average sheet metal duct project. It's not Carrier's finest effort by far which is why naming it Conquest befits the irony of calling it a Custer rooftop. It's really more like the last stand... no victory there.

Anyway, I've answered Freddy's rants and you can see how completely OFF target he is. I guess the contrast is that I know what I'm talking about. Freddy didn't.

[Dallas Duster]

Good Listener- If you knew this particular RTU you would know I'm being most generous with the commentary. Besides I'm agreeing with somebody else and don't consider it a complete rip as I'm not telling the guy to remove the equipment. Personally, I really like those 06 series compressors. Carrier used to have this G model (I think) with the oval heads that was soooo quiet running. Beautiful design I think. And, on this RTU, the compressors are the only good thing about it.

It is plagued by OA issues, air leaks, a VFD in the blower section air stream, burner issues, bad condenser design and more screws in the RTU than the average sheet metal duct project. It's not Carrier's finest effort by far which is why naming it Conquest befits the irony of calling it a Custer rooftop. It's really more like the last stand... no victory there.

Anyway, I've answered Freddy's rants and you can see how completely OFF target he is. I guess the contrast is that I know what I'm talking about. Freddy didn't.

I know alot about this RTU , outside air issues not sure what your talking about there explain more. Vfd in the blower section keep explaining, have worked on Tranes before where the drive was in the return and full of dust bunnies. Oh reciprocating comressors are kinda on their way out technology has to move on so you have to move with it.,so please don`t cry about those Carlyles they are good but have to be retired at some point. You know the Conquest works alot better without external controls hooked up to it. FYI I was on Freddy`s side .:D It always bothers me when someone kinda brags about "knowing what they are talking about" ....RED Flags raised. Maybe you can build a better unit I give you permission to do so.

[joey791]

sim, If you get the translator card to work I'd like to know

[sysint]

I know alot about this RTU ...Yea, The designers ALWAYS know what they are doing. This RTU is a disaster. And, I can point you to a former customer that has a half dozen of them and some very expensive just-out-of-warranty main board replacements. Air leaks on the horizontals and damper lockups. Don't forget the many, many screws on the burner section access panels before you get to see the blow back issues. Look Good listener, we had 4 Carrier plant engineers come up to hear what our company had to say about their product line because they thought we were being relevant. We met at the local Carrier distributor and had discussions from guillotine dampers to Conquest and I can tell you you wouldn't have some of the features on the Centurion without us pushing some input. (although not exactly the implementation we wanted a dramatic improvement).

My embarrassing moment was a couple spelling errors in my descriptions and slamming the guillotine damper before being told the designer was sitting next to me. Actually, they were a good natured bunch and seemed to care about making their stuff better. Let's say I learned why there are soooo many screws to deal with from them.

So, I guess the question is did they do a sit down with you on anything?

[Dallas Duster]

Yea, The designers ALWAYS know what they are doing. This RTU is a disaster. And, I can point you to a former customer that has a half dozen of them and some very expensive just-out-of-warranty main board replacements. Air leaks on the horizontals and damper lockups. Don't forget the many, many screws on the burner section access panels before you get to see the blow back issues. Look Good listener, we had 4 Carrier plant engineers come up to hear what our company had to say about their product line because they thought we were being relevant. We met at the local Carrier distributor and had discussions from guillotine dampers to Conquest and I can tell you you wouldn't have some of the features on the Centurion without us pushing some input. (although not exactly the implementation we wanted a dramatic improvement).

My embarrassing moment was a couple spelling errors in my descriptions and slamming the guillotine damper before being told the designer was sitting next to me. Actually, they were a good natured bunch and seemed to care about making their stuff better. Let's say I learned why there are soooo many screws to deal with from them.

So, I guess the question is did they do a sit down with you on anything?

So you are the one that made suggestion on the Centurion, now I know why it was a flop. Yeah I don`t see much difference in the dampers direct drive gear driven damper except they are 2-piece. Oh yeah and the Centurian can`t do linkage to the 3V dampers you must have snuck that one in there to push your crap. Yeah I can see they got rid of all those screws in the gas section ,sorry they are still there.Oh yeah did you pick the actuator for the Centurion cause i still don`t know how to troubleshoot it correctly ,do you?

[sysint]

We heavily pushed for the angled condenser and wanted the compressors OUT of the airstream.
We heavily pushed for a hinged door (albeit a better design)
We heavily pushed for direct coupled actuator (albeit a better location)
We heavily pushed for better filter access. (almost made it the way we wanted)
We heavily pushed for better blower design with a single adjustment point and lock down. (didn't get all the way there on that either)

....and no, we didn't get our way with the burner compartment. Why? Legal issues. They were going to make sure somebody really intended to take that cover off. However, we had enough documentation on what we termed "blow back" in really cold gusty weather, so they made some adjustments there also.

We also suggested that the drain be easier to pipe up and on both sides of the unit.

Further, we were quick to point out the heat section issues after we installed a couple units.

So speaking for my UA 601 brothers with me at the time, I think we would find you pretty cock-sure of yourself so give it a rest. There's no reason for me to publically spew garbage that's so easy to verify. And none of had anything to do with open protocols.... and I'm sure we weren't the only guys asking for some of those things but we actually took the time to put it in writing and they actually came to talk with us about things. Got to give them credit for that.

[Dallas Duster]

Yep to me it sounds like they blew you off. So I ask around about you and how much fun they made of you after they left.:D

"Albeit" argue with you later.

[sysint]

No. They were there with the first ones at the distributor we set down. Of course we got the explanation on why they did what they did, etc... but that's where you learn it's not just engineering involved. They had their own disappointments. At least the thing didn't ship with a rubber flap for a filter door.

So, when I say the best way to get a manufacturer to change is not buy--- it's a fact. Otherwise they don't. They had this RTU at a 15% premium. That's the main reason it didn't do as well. Guys weren't paying 15% more for something they expected. So, they were buying Aaon, etc...

Go ahead ask around. I'm sure they had a laugh. But we weren't presenting BS and I thought they were listening and they were bringing up counterpoints so if they didn't give a crap they sure acted differently.

But, back to the comparison. I'll take that unit over the Custer any day. It's better. Think about that next time you do a compressor replacement.

[Dallas Duster]

I`ve changed many of compressors scrolls and semi`s and I don`t complain as much as you do . I figured this being the control forum that there would be more controls related complaints coming from you then basic unit design,WTF? I find it very hard to believe you actually get along with anybody,your in sales right?

Seems you didn`t answer alot of questions that I asked.

[sysint]

Would you rather a sales guy who kept all of his opinions to himself and always agreed with you? I prefer the honest guy. Nobody agrees on everything.

Anyway, more of my issues go back to a simple issue- this company does make some very nice things, can make some very nice things and chooses oftentimes NOT to make things well. So, I've got no problem saying so.

Perhaps if I'm at your office talking about our product you will appreciate my straightforwardness telling you where we can perform better so you can make an honest assessment of the product you are considering. Maybe if you want to continue start another thread and I can edit these posts out.

[Dallas Duster]

[QUOTE=sysint;2875532]Would you rather a sales guy who kept all of his opinions to himself and always agreed with you? I prefer the honest guy. Nobody agrees on everything.

Anyway, more of my issues go back to a simple issue- this company does make some very nice things, can make some very nice things and chooses oftentimes NOT to make things well. So, I've got no problem saying so.

Perhaps if I'm at your office talking about our product you will appreciate my straightforwardness telling you where we can perform better so you can make an honest assessment of the product you are considering. Maybe if you want to continue start another thread and I can edit these posts out.[

Being a salesman says it all, means not to be trusted. That`s my honesty coiming out in me. At our office they wouldn`t even let you in the door.

[sysint]

Everybody does things differently. We used to let them in and hear them out.

I even let in this guy called Al Mouton. One of the best decisions I ever made. Here this "sales guy" stops into our little operation dragging along some Austrian guy with him. Turns out they were probably two of the smarter guys I've ever met. Really helpful.

...Dallas? what company are you currently at?

[Dallas Duster]

Yep Dallas we are kinda tied in with the CCN and I-vu stuff.

[sysint]

Big Alerton presence in Dallas.

[Dallas Duster]

Yeah also alot of JCI, ALC, and TAC . That is a moajority of what I see out there. Haven`t seen too much Alerton and when I did they were bad installs.