EBI Upgrade

[Droshi]

This is a bit of a strange question, but does anyone know how to calculate how EBI uses points for licensing purposes? We would be using an Excel 5000 direct point server and modbus interface for both XL500 controllers as well as MC+VAV controllers. The problem is that our local rep seems to give us a different answer each time we ask, and though we are trying to find out through other official Honeywell sources I hoped someone here might know.

Also we will be getting training on EBI, but if anyone can point me towards some good resources for using quickbuilder, making graphics and transferring them to the final display it would be nice to get a head-start.

Thanks!

[ctrlguy]

EBI counts all points that are created in Quickbuilder which means all the XL5000 point that you choose to bring into the system. I don't believe Modbus points are built in Quickbuilder, so those shouldn't count unless you create derived points (there probably wouldn't be many of those).

If you can get a copy of the program, the help files aren't terrible.

If there's a way to stop the train you're on toward EBI, you should do it now. EBI is not a favorite of anybody. It's huge, complicated, troublesome, expensive, labor intensive and touchy.

[markw_mn]

Droshi.. the points used are determined as which points you have downloaded from quick builder. A VAV box will count as 2 points because the points are bundled.

I could also help you with the quickbuilder, graphics, sync etc. Definitly can be a tricky procedure.

[blindhog]

Modbus points can be built in QuickBuilder. Each one counts against your license.

Two points per VAV is only true for LNS VAVs.

The points you load into your EBI database are what matters. It is possible to get points into your EBI database without using QuickBuilder, but they would still count against your license.

[markw_mn]

I would still not count more than 2 points per VAV. If the VAV is coming from a zone manager, true, they will have multiple points. Then I would use a container point (only counts as one). That way I could also utilize one graphic for all of the VAV's instead of a separate graphic for each.

[Droshi]

You seem to be saying that only points being displayed will be counted by the software is that correct?

A typical VAV page for us has about 17 points being displayed (dampers, flow rates, flow setpoints, temp, temp setpoint, min/max cooling limit setpoints etc). We can trim this down as well, which is probably what we will do if they must all be counted for each VAV controller. Or am I missing something on the way quickbuilder loads points from VAV controllers? I can get more info on the exact controllers if that's needed as well.

Yes we have everything loaded onto a virtual server to test, but unfortunately we couldn't really figure out how to do one graphic start to finish when we had a BNA for testing. We should be purchasing the entire package soon, and unfortunately because of our C-Bus architecture and because of the late phase we are in on this project I don't think we can divert this away from EBI (although it's been suggested). Not much else has C-Bus native support, but the good news is that we have a good IT department for support as well as a good internal team that should be able to learn the software from our end.

(edit) Ah I see that ctrlguy pointed out that quickbuilder does load in the points differently from VAVs. Should plan on about 2 per controller then?

[markw_mn]

Droshi.. you will only need a maximum of 2 points for the VAV. If it is from LNS you will need 2 if you want controller status. If it is through a zone manager you could figure on 1.

In quick builder you can create a container point which bundles all of the related points together into one point. So your 8 or 10 or however many points you want to use from your VAV, well, just bundle them up in a container point an then you have one point.

[Droshi]

Thanks very much for the help.

Our next problem is just training! Once we really figure out the capabilities of EBI we can start planning better on redoing all of our graphics. Any suggestions?

[markw_mn]

I think the graphics will be a piece of cake.. the biggest headache.. (which I think there may be many).. will be in getting everything into EBI communicating, point servers working, etc.

My contact info is in my profile if you need any help along the way.

[Droshi]

One other question I have is: Can these points be only used for the Excel 5000 point server? Or can they be used in conjunction with a LON point server?

Right now we only have XL500 controllers, but for the future we may have a new installation and would require to get the new LION controllers. Is there anything else we should know and could maybe plan on now in our quotation?

Thanks again!

[ctrlguy]

Lonworks pointserver points don't count against your license. They're not built in Quickbuilder.

[Droshi]

Would we have to purchase different points to be used on the LONworks server? Or they don't operate on a point basis?

[Graphics Guru]

Droshi -

I know you have more EBI pressing concerns than the graphics, but the grfx can be built pretty easily.

You don't state your original control system -- if it's XBS/XBSi, you can use the CDIPlus app to convert the Honeywell data/grfx. If it's another system, you can be hung up on export features of the old system.

If -- a big 'if' -- the old system can export your graphic displays as windows metafiles (wmf), you can then import these to the EBI product via the EBI app HMIWeb Display Builder. They'll be non-modifiable at that point...sort of like a diagram taped to your monitor. Then you can add data fields on top of the display. Not the greatest, but it's functional.

If you need to build the grfx from scratch, you're looking at a small-to-medium learning curve with the HMIWeb Display Builder product. We've been developing EBI grfx for years, and we've come up with attractive, functional displays. If you're interested, you can contact me.

Good luck with it.

[ctrlguy]

Would we have to purchase different points to be used on the LONworks server? Or they don't operate on a point basis?
There is no licensing for Lonworks pointserver points. Free! They're easy to configure for Honeywell products (XL10s), but more complicated for 3rd party stuff. You need an XML template for each Lonworks device and there is a wizard for creating them, but you may have to do some editing to get what you want, plus you'll need to create and assign the graphic for each device (non-Honeywell).

[tuncos]

There is no licensing for Lonworks pointserver points. Free!
Don't forget that you have to have the proper amount of LON device credits from Echelon for LNS.

[Droshi]

Droshi -

I know you have more EBI pressing concerns than the graphics, but the grfx can be built pretty easily.

You don't state your original control system -- if it's XBS/XBSi, you can use the CDIPlus app to convert the Honeywell data/grfx. If it's another system, you can be hung up on export features of the old system.

If -- a big 'if' -- the old system can export your graphic displays as windows metafiles (wmf), you can then import these to the EBI product via the EBI app HMIWeb Display Builder. They'll be non-modifiable at that point...sort of like a diagram taped to your monitor. Then you can add data fields on top of the display. Not the greatest, but it's functional.

If you need to build the grfx from scratch, you're looking at a small-to-medium learning curve with the HMIWeb Display Builder product. We've been developing EBI grfx for years, and we've come up with attractive, functional displays. If you're interested, you can contact me.

Good luck with it.

Yeah, we have known that there is an import tool from XBS (our current software) to EBI. The problem is that as you say it will be sort of a temporary solution, that will work and would be the intention to update each drawing, but unfortunately I'm afraid if we don't do it now it will be forgotten about or considered not necessary later on.

Also, because previous operators liked to use XBS as a notepad, there's a bunch of notes on each drawing that need to be cleaned up, which this makes for a good opportunity.

And finally in addition, we can think more about navigation and trying to flatten it so that everything is easier and intuitive to learn and use. Of course we can only go so far with drawing navigation, but hopefully EBI itself will help us at least a little in this department. The biggest drawback is that we don't know enough about the software until we get more training and start actually using it.


There is no licensing for Lonworks pointserver points. Free! They're easy to configure for Honeywell products (XL10s), but more complicated for 3rd party stuff. You need an XML template for each Lonworks device and there is a wizard for creating them, but you may have to do some editing to get what you want, plus you'll need to create and assign the graphic for each device (non-Honeywell).

That's pretty good news. For some weird reason we've used a lot of XL500s instead of the smaller controllers, but I guess the idea was to have a lot of room for expandability. The replacement to these we are told are the LION series controllers, but once we come to a new project we can look into that more fully. Right now it's just nice to have an idea to see if we need to negotiate anything else up front.

Thanks again for all the help, it's amazing the answers that are available here but that our Honeywell rep doesn't know. :)

[printe_train]

Hi Droshi,
if you installed the lion contoller you only need 1 Licence per Controller. An the best is that you dont need to draw the graphics for the lion. The Graphics are ready, you call up the grahics if look to an parameter of the controller ( like room temp. ) Then the standart graphics of the lion controller open and then you see all parameters.

regards from germany

printe_train

[ongtho123]

Hi, Have you got EBI's Documentations, please give me the links. Thank you verymuch!

[komaher]

try the following :

http://customer.honeywell.com/Business/Cultures/en-US/Default.htm
use advanced search for EBI

there are other documentations for EBI but the files are many, pls let me know what is the file u need so someone check it for u

[ongtho123]

I need EBI user guides documentation. Teach me how to work with EBI (R400 or later).
-How to collect points
- Design layout (graphic display)
-Schedule...
- (User guides, Getting started)
Thanks a lot