Carry Concealed.... Can you carry a firearm at work?

[zw17]

If you have your CCW permit can you and do you carry at work?

Some of those late night service calls can be in some shady parts of town.

[jpsmith1cm]

I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

If I feel that the situation warrants it, I carry.

[the dangling wrangler]

It has a lot to do with what the property owner allows. If they say no, then no it is. At least in Texas.

[BobbyBJr]

I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

If I feel that the situation warrants it, I carry.

Same here. I've carried off and on since I got my permit to carry when I turned 21 and worked for a local security company. I don't have it all the time, but always have it when we are called to go into certain parts of town.

[Tiger93rsl]

would this be considered a conceled weapon? When worn as a belt buckle it is most definatly visiable.

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg196/hfcable/P1000127.jpg

[kytinknocker]

I always carry.

[zw17]

I am glad to see I am not alone. I carry daily, if not on me then in my service van.

Driving in the bad parts of the city with a van full of $1000's of dollars in tools is a prime target.

[Tiger93rsl]

I only own long guns so the only time I need to carry is if I'm going to the country during pheasant season. I feel comfortable enough in most parts of Denver I can't justify haveing a handgun.

[iraqveteran]

I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

If I feel that the situation warrants it, I carry.

ditto.

And dead men cant tell the truth....:D

[zw17]

I only own long guns so the only time I need to carry is if I'm going to the country during pheasant season. I feel comfortable enough in most parts of Denver I can't justify haveing a handgun.

I understand... It's not for everybody. It's a big responsibility to carry a firearm.

One question for you though... Why do you carry a fire extinguisher on your service truck when you have the fire department to protect you???

[amickracing]

Not allowed to, and I'm 99% sure if we were ever caught with a firearm in the vehicle, it'd be our last day.

[Tiger93rsl]

I understand... It's not for everybody. It's a big responsibility to carry a firearm.

One question for you though... Why do you carry a fire extinguisher on your service truck when you have the fire department to protect you???

I'm 34 years old and in my entire life I've only needed to use a firearm twice. Once was to kill a rabbid skunk in my yard and the second time was to kill a coyote chaseing after our calfs.

I've have to use a fire extinguisher atleast a dozen times in my life and a few of them wouldn't have been very pretty if I had not had one.

[Tiger93rsl]

.

[rojacman]

I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

If I feel that the situation warrants it, I carry.i live in a city that will never have c.c. laws , so once again i'll ask the question that has never been answered on any of these gun threads. i love and have guns and have carried illegally at times but knowing full well what i'm letting myself in for . (mandatory 1 yr jail no matter how clean your record is). ok , you guys that can carry legally , what happens to u if you actually use that weapon for self defense or protecting your truck , etc??? does that ccw permit cut u any slack in the legal system or are u just as liable as a gangbanger or thief????.............Jack

[iraqveteran]

i live in a city that will never have c.c. laws , so once again i'll ask the question that has never been answered on any of these gun threads. i love and have guns and have carried illegally at times but knowing full well what i'm letting myself in for . (mandatory 1 yr jail no matter how clean your record is). ok , you guys that can carry legally , what happens to u if you actually use that weapon for self defense or protecting your truck , etc??? does that ccw permit cut u any slack in the legal system or are u just as liable as a gangbanger or thief????.............Jack


The only difference in that situation is that legally you were allowed to be packin heat.

Just the same goes if someone was attempting to break into your house. Your legally allowed to own guns, and if your life is in danger or your protecting life or personal property, then so be it.

The law is the law. A concealed carry permit does nothing that changes the law....it just gives you the right to carry the weapon when others aren't.

[jpsmith1cm]

i live in a city that will never have c.c. laws , so once again i'll ask the question that has never been answered on any of these gun threads. i love and have guns and have carried illegally at times but knowing full well what i'm letting myself in for . (mandatory 1 yr jail no matter how clean your record is). ok , you guys that can carry legally , what happens to u if you actually use that weapon for self defense or protecting your truck , etc??? does that ccw permit cut u any slack in the legal system or are u just as liable as a gangbanger or thief????.............Jack

If that ever happens, I fully expect to be arrested, or at least cuffed until the police sort out what happened.

I do not look forward to the legal battle that comes afterwards.

[Green Mountain]

This is one area which is not F'ed up yet in Vermont. You don't need a license for a pistol or rifle. You can carry a concealed weapon. Only rules are:

You can't bring a gun into a bank, federal building, court room or school.

You can't not have a loaded hunting rifle in your car. You can have a loaded pistol in your car however.

[absoair]

This is one area which is not F'ed up yet in Vermont. You don't need a license for a pistol or rifle. You can carry a concealed weapon. Only rules are:

You can't bring a gun into a bank, federal building, court room or school.

You can't not have a loaded hunting rifle in your car. You can have a loaded pistol in your car however.

Maybe thats why you never see Vermont in the National news. Everybody prolly packs heat

[absoair]

I carry mine in my truck, don't have a CCW but I am going to. The only time I would use it is when I have too. Not worried about what might happen because I carry, I worry more about what might happen if I don't carry. Crime is high, funds are low

[forged alloy]

If you work for someone other then yourself, you should let them know if you intend to carry. Their company will be the one to get sued if something goes down.

Other then that, if you have a CCW then you know the responsibility's that go along with it. It's your choice.

[maintenanceguy]

In NJ, it's a felony to carry a firearm. There is a concealed carry law but it requires the signature of the superintendent of state police. I doubt that any have been issued for decades.

It's even against the law to have a firearm locked in the trunk of your car unless the ammo is somewhere else and you can show that you're either on your way to the shooting range or to a hunt. And no firearms can be carried on several of the state highways at all.

Getting the approval to purchase a handgun takes months. The law says they have 30 days to approve or deny. It's been fought in court so the local police dept. just started denying to get it done in the 30 days.

If you're fortunate enough to live in an area where your government sees you as trustworthy responsible citizens instead of as the enemy that must be disarmed, appreciate the right to protect yourself and your family. Lots of us lost the "privilege" of personal security a long time ago.

[jpsmith1cm]

I'd move.

I refuse to be disarmed.

[forcryinoutloud]

i live in a city that will never have c.c. laws , so once again i'll ask the question that has never been answered on any of these gun threads. i love and have guns and have carried illegally at times but knowing full well what i'm letting myself in for . (mandatory 1 yr jail no matter how clean your record is). ok , you guys that can carry legally , what happens to u if you actually use that weapon for self defense or protecting your truck , etc??? does that ccw permit cut u any slack in the legal system or are u just as liable as a gangbanger or thief????.............Jack

In Florida the law is very clear on when you can legally use your weapon. For your protection, the protection of another, or to stop a forcible felony such as armed robbery, car jacking, kid knapping, rape, etc.

The best part of our law is that if you are not charged criminally for the shooting the family or criminal can not sue you civally for it either.

So long as you were within the law when you used your weapon you have nothing to be worried about, from a legal standpoint.

[the dangling wrangler]

So long as you were within the law when you used your weapon you have nothing to be worried about, from a legal standpoint.

Except for paying an attorney between 40-50,000.

[vmc1161]

I do not have any weapons, so I do not carry, I also would not let an employee carry on my time or in my vehicle at any time.


For those that do or want to ... thinking of how you will react and how you actually react are two very different things. Could it save your life ... sure, could it eff up your life ... sure. It is your choice and I agree you have that right, just not on my time.

All my kids were taught gun safety and use, we just don’t have any.


.

[Twilly]

Twilli is laways packin

[forcryinoutloud]

Except for paying an attorney between 40-50,000.


Nope, if you are not charged with anything criminally you are good to go. In the cases that I have seen on the news, the people that have defended themselves have not been arrested. The police will perform an investigation, but if you are following the law, and don't give any other reasons for arrest (drinking, drugs, prior record) you should not need a lawyer.

Not saying it wouldn't be a good idea to have one present while being questioned about the incident, just saying it is not required, and also if you are an upstanding, law abiding citizen (which you should be if you have a carry permit) you should not have anything to worry about.

I'm sure that there are some areas of the state where the police will arrest first, then try to sort it out, but that has not been the case in this area.

Also to add, if I am going to use my weapon there will be no doubt that it was a clean shoot. Even with the laws in place, I don't have the extra $$ laying around for a lawyer if there happened to be any doubt about the situation.

You have to know when you are and are not justified in using deadly force.

[zw17]

I do not have any weapons, so I do not carry, I also would not let an employee carry on my time or in my vehicle at any time.


For those that do or want to ... thinking of how you will react and how you actually react are two very different things. Could it save your life ... sure, could it eff up your life ... sure. It is your choice and I agree you have that right, just not on my time.

All my kids were taught gun safety and use, we just don’t have any.


.

It's a shame you feel that way. Using that same train of thought... Will you be taking your emplyees trucks away? They just as easily could be used to kill another person, in fact statisicly speaking it happens much more than with a gun. If you ask your employees to run calls for you then I feel you have no right to dictate their personal safety or take away their god given right to self defense.

[jpsmith1cm]

I do not have any weapons, so I do not carry, I also would not let an employee carry on my time or in my vehicle at any time.


For those that do or want to ... thinking of how you will react and how you actually react are two very different things. Could it save your life ... sure, could it eff up your life ... sure. It is your choice and I agree you have that right, just not on my time.

All my kids were taught gun safety and use, we just don’t have any.


.

You are absolutely, 100% correct. I do not know what will happen if I ever have to use my gun. What I do know is that, heaven forbid, the day ever comes that I am backed into that unholy corner, I will fight like an animal to defend myself.

I understand an employer not wanting the liability of an employee carrying a firearm in a company vehicle. Put a no weapons policy in place. That way, if I have a gun, it isn't your fault. Most insurance companies demand it anyway.

As I said, I will not be disarmed. Not by an employer, not by a government.

Think about the alternatives. You can defend, or you can take a beating or maybe watch, helpless, as your wife and kids are hurt.

I'd rather die fighting.

[the dangling wrangler]

Nope, if you are not charged with anything criminally you are good to go. In the cases that I have seen on the news, the people that have defended themselves have not been arrested. The police will perform an investigation, but if you are following the law, and don't give any other reasons for arrest (drinking, drugs, prior record) you should not need a lawyer.

Not saying it wouldn't be a good idea to have one present while being questioned about the incident, just saying it is not required, and also if you are an upstanding, law abiding citizen (which you should be if you have a carry permit) you should not have anything to worry about.

I'm sure that there are some areas of the state where the police will arrest first, then try to sort it out, but that has not been the case in this area.

Also to add, if I am going to use my weapon there will be no doubt that it was a clean shoot. Even with the laws in place, I don't have the extra $$ laying around for a lawyer if there happened to be any doubt about the situation.

You have to know when you are and are not justified in using deadly force.

Every state is different. I think if you (or I) shoot someone, you (or I) could expect to spend lots of money. Justifiable shooting or not. And yes, I do have a Florida non-resident permit.

[vmc1161]

It's a shame you feel that way. Using that same train of thought... Will you be taking your emplyees trucks away? They just as easily could be used to kill another person, in fact statisicly speaking it happens much more than with a gun. If you ask your employees to run calls for you then I feel you have no right to dictate their personal safety or take away their god given right to self defense.


I knew I would get a few responses... just not one this ... ummm ... I'm not going to say it.


Take the trucks away ... :confused:


You can defend yourself without a gun ...I know I have.

A gun can turn a small problem into a much bigger one sometimes.

A gun can avert problems too.

You sound a little too eager to “solve” problems to me.

My truck, my employee, my law suit, I tell guys that work for me that if they ever feel unsafe at any time for any reason to leave, remove yourself from the danger zone. It has rarely happened, and is usually more worry about the truck then personal safety.

I have a baseball bat strategically placed in my home for any problems; it has been in the same spot for over twenty-five years … unused. If I were to have a gun in the house, it would be a shotgun, not a pistol, that way I lessen the chance of shooting my kid three rooms over.


.

[jpsmith1cm]

To paraphrase Clint Smith, founder of Thunder Ranch.

"A handgun is to fight your way back to the long gun that you probably shouldn't have left behind in the first place."

A shotgun is a very formidable weapon. My first choice for home defense.

However, you may have a mistaken idea about it's penetration. It will cause a huge amount of damage, even through several "standard" 2x4 walls, if loaded with most people's first choice of buckshot. A .36" (000 buck)ball is no different than a .38/.357, a .380, or a 9mm.
I have handloaded 2 000 buck pellets into .38 special casings and used them as pest control loads. They are wicked, believe me!

The only difference is that with a handgun, you would be launching them one at a time, with a shotty, it's 9-15 at a time, depending on shot size.

[fcs]

My only concern is the issue of a large number of victims killed by their own gun.

The SOB robbing, of what ever you has no respect for human life and wont Even think about killing you, Most people will think about it and it gets them killed.

[jpsmith1cm]

That is an inflated statistic used by Handgun Control Inc and the like to sway public opinion.

Much like the 47 times more likely to kill a family member stat.

In practiced hands a firearm is only dangerous to the goblins.

[fcs]

That is an inflated statistic used by Handgun Control Inc and the like to sway public opinion.

Much like the 47 times more likely to kill a family member stat.

In practiced hands a firearm is only dangerous to the goblins.

I support the right to bare Arms. I know for myself I would be slow to fire on someone, and that low life most like woudle think twice about fireing on me.

Just me thought.

[the dangling wrangler]

Someone else posted this in ARP. It'll work here too.

http://www.gunfacts.info/

[the dangling wrangler]

This guy wasn't the brightest crayon in the box.

http://www.myfoxhouston.com/dpp/news/090316_man_charged_fatal_party_shooting

[The Penguin]

There is nothing in my service truck worth my life

[the dangling wrangler]

There is nothing in my service truck worth my life

Nothing?

[small change]

There is nothing in my service truck worth my life

Nail on the head

Sometimes folks get so wrapped up in a discussion they sometimes lose their focus.

If I am your boss and even after I tell you it is company policy that you are not to carry on the job, and you still do.

Then I am not your boss anymore.

Go forth and seek new employment.

[WhoIsThat?]

Will you be taking your emplyees trucks away? They just as easily could be used to kill another person, in fact statisicly speaking it happens much more than with a gun.

Used properly, trucks do not kill people and are necessary for running a business. I've never heard of a war where the troops were armed with trucks.

Guns are designed to kill or maim; if they are also necessary for running a business I'd find another line of work.

Vehicle [all vehicles] fatalities per year, ~45,000.
Gun fatalities ~60,000/yr.
Hospital fatalities, ~90,000 yr., so let's ban hospitals.

[vmc1161]

To paraphrase Clint Smith, founder of Thunder Ranch.

"A handgun is to fight your way back to the long gun that you probably shouldn't have left behind in the first place."

A shotgun is a very formidable weapon. My first choice for home defense.

However, you may have a mistaken idea about it's penetration. It will cause a huge amount of damage, even through several "standard" 2x4 walls, if loaded with most people's first choice of buckshot. A .36" (000 buck)ball is no different than a .38/.357, a .380, or a 9mm.
I have handloaded 2 000 buck pellets into .38 special casings and used them as pest control loads. They are wicked, believe me!

The only difference is that with a handgun, you would be launching them one at a time, with a shotty, it's 9-15 at a time, depending on shot size.


I understand what you are saying, here is a breakdown of self defence ammo using a 12 gauge shotgun... I was thinking along the lines of birdshot, it may not kill first shot but it will knock them down ... followed by a second shot if needed. I took a class on this about thirty years ago and they recommended birdshot, especially if there were kids in the house.



The 12 gauge shotgun is the most devastating and lethal weapon yet devised for inflicting rack and ruin at close range. A safe bet for ammunition selection is to use the 2-3/4-inch 00 buckshot load. The impact of one of these shot shells is essentially equivalent to getting hit with a nine round burst from a submachine gun.

It is probably a good idea to avoid the 2-3/4- and 3-inch "Magnum" loads. Their brutal kick makes them a bad choice, and little is gained over the stopping power of standard rounds. Controllability is important, and standard 12 gauge shotgun shells have plenty of kick already.

Some shooters prefer #4 or #1 buckshot over 00 buck. Real world one shot stopping success of the #4 buck is a respectable 81-83%. Data hasn't been collected for the #1 buck, but its performance should be even better.

The one ounce slug, fired from a 2-3/4-inch Federal, Remington, or Winchester shell, has a one shot stopping success of 98%. A deer barrel with rifle sights is the appropriate platform for this round. It is not the best choice for self defense because aiming becomes the critical factor in effective shot placement. The high probability of scoring hits, an advantage associated with buckshot loads, is lost. Slugs also have ferocious recoil and tend to over penetrate.

Although birdshot is not as lethal as buckshot, even at close range, it may make sense for home or apartment defense where the opportunity exists to injure or kill innocent people behind thin walls in adjacent rooms. For defending a single family home, buffered by land, 00 buck is preferred. The choice for birdshot loads is BB or #4 birdshot. Out to a range of 30 feet or so, birdshot is essentially a solid column of lead pellets. Stopping power may not be sufficient, however, due lack of penetration potential.

At close range, birdshot can destroy a great deal of tissue, producing a gruesome wound. The depth of the injury, however, will likely be six inches or less. This is too shallow to reliably affect an assailant's heart or major cardiovascular blood vessels. Because the wound trauma produced by birdshot is not decisively effective, a quick stop to deadly violence is not guaranteed. Buckshot loads, on the other hand, will exhibit penetration on the order of 12 inches or so, a depth sufficient to intersect vital blood distribution structures and terminate aggression.

Some misconceptions may exist regarding the spread of shotgun pellets or balls. It is not enough to merely point the shotgun in the general direction of an assailant and let fly. Birdshot or buckshot does not create a huge cone of death and destruction that devastates everything in its path. Rather, for a defense or "riot" shotgun with an 18- to 20-inch open choked "improved cylinder" barrel, the pellets will spread out about one inch for every yard of range traveled. Across a large room of 18 feet or so, the spread will only be about 6 inches, a circle as big as a coffee cup saucer. At 50 feet, the spread will only be about 16 inches, the size of a large pizza. It is obvious from this information that a shotgun blast will not incapacitate multiple assailants at close range.

The shotgun must be skillfully aimed and fired. Aiming is just not quite as precise as that required for a handgun or autoloader to score multiple hits on an aggressor. The massive firepower of the shotgun will likely produce a favorable outcome in any self defense encounter.


.

[The Penguin]

Nothing?


Don't be a complete moron you know full well what I mean

I shouldn't have to say "besides my own arse"

[the dangling wrangler]

Don't be a complete moron you know full well what I mean

I shouldn't have to say "besides my own arse"

I couldn't resist. :D

[BamaCool]

In NJ, it's a felony to carry a firearm. Lots of us lost the "privilege" of personal security a long time ago.
Ain't no privilege to it. IT"S A RIGHT!

[BamaCool]

I do not have any weapons, so I do not carry, I also would not let an employee carry on my time or in my vehicle at any time.

.
So let's do a "What If", since everybody is so damn lawsuit crazy. I work for you and you don't allow me the to carry a gun for self defense, (which I would do anyway, you just wouldn't know it) even though I'm only 5'4", 110 lbs. One day I'm on a job, somebody robs me, takes all YOUR tools, and then kills me. Can my wife now sue YOU because you denied me my right for self defense?:confused:

[the dangling wrangler]

So let's do a "What If", since everybody is so damn lawsuit crazy. I work for you and you don't allow me the to carry a gun for self defense, (which I would do anyway, you just wouldn't know it) even though I'm only 5'4", 110 lbs. One day I'm on a job, somebody robs me, takes all YOUR tools, and then kills me. Can my wife now sue YOU because you denied me my right for self defense?:confused:

Sorry. No DIY here. Time to call a pro. :D

[dash]

So let's do a "What If", since everybody is so damn lawsuit crazy. I work for you and you don't allow me the to carry a gun for self defense, (which I would do anyway, you just wouldn't know it) even though I'm only 5'4", 110 lbs. One day I'm on a job, somebody robs me, takes all YOUR tools, and then kills me. Can my wife now sue YOU because you denied me my right for self defense?:confused:

Sue yes,win not likely.

[the dangling wrangler]

So let's do a "What If", since everybody is so damn lawsuit crazy. I work for you and you don't allow me the to carry a gun for self defense, (which I would do anyway, you just wouldn't know it) even though I'm only 5'4", 110 lbs. One day I'm on a job, somebody robs me, takes all YOUR tools, and then kills me. Can my wife now sue YOU because you denied me my right for self defense?:confused:

Did you get killed with company tools?

[BamaCool]

Sue yes,win not likely.
Why?? A woman can sue over hot coffee.....and WIN????? The same bunch of idiots that allow lawsuits like this to stand a chance are the same bunch of idiots that are for gun control. I assume that's what you meant by "not likely", right?

[BamaCool]

Did you get killed with company tools?
Nope..............I got killed because of the company tools, and the owner wouldn't allow me to have the main tool I needed - SELF DEFENSE!

[jpsmith1cm]

This is interesting.

My employer sends me into places where I would not normally go, asks me (on occasion) to accept money for services rendered, gives me hundreds of pounds of freez-on and copper, then tells me, basically, that my life is worthless and I can't defend myself while dragging this kind of bait through the ghetto?

BULL!

As I said, I will not be disarmed. By government nor by an employer.

If I am going somewhere where I am not comfortable being, after dark, behind buildings where the goblins lurk. I WILL BE ARMED!

Would you feel better if I carried a baseball bat on every call? I'll leave it stick right out of the ol' tool bag and if anybody asks, I'll tell 'em that the boss sez I can't carry a gun, so I carry this.

[the dangling wrangler]

So let's do a "What If", since everybody is so damn lawsuit crazy. I work for you and you don't allow me the to carry a gun for self defense, (which I would do anyway, you just wouldn't know it) even though I'm only 5'4", 110 lbs. One day I'm on a job, somebody robs me, takes all YOUR tools, and then kills me. Can my wife now sue YOU because you denied me my right for self defense?:confused:

I'm gonna say you wouldn't win this case. If you're working for someone, seems like they'd have a written policy on something this important. It's really a "grey" area untill it actually happens. Could really get sticky if you were a sub.

[the dangling wrangler]

This is interesting.

My employer sends me into places where I would not normally go, asks me (on occasion) to accept money for services rendered, gives me hundreds of pounds of freez-on and copper, then tells me, basically, that my life is worthless and I can't defend myself while dragging this kind of bait through the ghetto?

BULL!

As I said, I will not be disarmed. By government nor by an employer.

If I am going somewhere where I am not comfortable being, after dark, behind buildings where the goblins lurk. I WILL BE ARMED!

Would you feel better if I carried a baseball bat on every call? I'll leave it stick right out of the ol' tool bag and if anybody asks, I'll tell 'em that the boss sez I can't carry a gun, so I carry this.

Simplest solution, don't take those calls. I'm 110% pro carry. I won't go into places I don't feel safe. Try to avoid clearing leather at all costs. If you work for someone else, ya gotta play by their rules

[bigtime]

http://www.wirelessestimator.com/t_content.cfm?pagename=AFL%20Tech%20Killed

This guy lost his life because he had a gun. Be careful.

[zw17]

Used properly, trucks do not kill people and are necessary for running a business. I've never heard of a war where the troops were armed with trucks.

Guns are designed to kill or maim; if they are also necessary for running a business I'd find another line of work.

Vehicle [all vehicles] fatalities per year, ~45,000.
Gun fatalities ~60,000/yr.
Hospital fatalities, ~90,000 yr., so let's ban hospitals.

First, I would like you post a source for your statistics. They seem a little embellished.

Second, we are not discussing war, we are talking about the right to self defense, preservation of innocent human life, and the constitutional right to bear arms.

Third, you are at least right about one thing in this thread... Trucks don't kill people, a crazy person behind the wheel does though, so you can trust your employee with a 3/4 ton work van but not a tool to defend his or her life in a worst case scenario? Sad, I guess you don't trust your employees too much. I guess the same employees could (if they slip off the deep end) take that work truck and plow into a crowd of people, you would most definitely get sued then huh? But I know... It's not the same, guns are evil, trucks are a normal everyday thing right? :rolleyes:

Guns kill people like pencils misspell words.

[zw17]

http://www.wirelessestimator.com/t_content.cfm?pagename=AFL%20Tech%20Killed

This guy lost his life because he had a gun. Be careful.


Correction... This guy lost his life because he was an idiot.


Police say he wouldn't drop weapon
Police said Payne, who was in uniform, identified himself as a police officer and asked Furr not to move. According to police, Furr reached behind his back and pulled out a handgun. Police say Furr refused to obey repeated commands from the police officer to put down the gun.

Don't confuse the sheep.

[Green Mountain]

I do not have any weapons, so I do not carry, I also would not let an employee carry on my time or in my vehicle at any time.
All my kids were taught gun safety and use, we just don’t have any.
.

That is because you are from Massachusettes. If WE let you guys have guns you'd start another Revolution. :)

Look what you do when you get a lousy touch down.:eek:

[bigtime]

Correction... This guy lost his life because he was an idiot.



Don't confuse the sheep.


I dont really think the guy was an idiot. He was working in the middle of the night and someone approached with a flashlight in a loud environment. There was confussion, fear, and guns. This was a tragedy, and I posted it for no reason other than to caution gun toters of this potential.

[zw17]

So let's do a "What If", since everybody is so damn lawsuit crazy. I work for you and you don't allow me the to carry a gun for self defense, (which I would do anyway, you just wouldn't know it) even though I'm only 5'4", 110 lbs. One day I'm on a job, somebody robs me, takes all YOUR tools, and then kills me. Can my wife now sue YOU because you denied me my right for self defense?:confused:

There has been no case law to support this that I am aware of but I can tell you that groups such as the NRA and GOA are looking to push this issue to it's fullest. It's a great argument... If you cannot provide absolute safety to a customer or employee do you have the right to take away their rights to self defense?

I would love to see how this turns out. :D

[the dangling wrangler]

http://www.wirelessestimator.com/t_content.cfm?pagename=AFL%20Tech%20Killed

This guy lost his life because he had a gun. Be careful.

That's a sad story. Lots a blame here, on both sides. But for the guy carrying a .32? He woulda been better off carrying a big rock.

[zw17]

I dont really think the guy was an idiot. He was working in the middle of the night and someone approached with a flashlight in a loud environment. There was confussion, fear, and guns. This was a tragedy, and I posted it for no reason other than to caution gun toters of this potential.

Anyone who refuses repeated commands from a uniformed police officer to drop the gun is an untrained idiot.

I agree with you about being educational but your post kind of slants to the left. He didn't die because he had a gun, he died because he refused to drop the gun after being ordered to repeatedly by the police.

He drew when he should not have (was his life in danger or was he scared?) That was his 1st mistake.

[Senior Tech]

I'm sitting here reading this thread and almost find it humorous...

I was a cop for 8 years. I can count on one hand how many times I had to un-holster my weapon on duty...times must have changed, some here act as if they are knocking on the door of potential death on a daily basis. If that's the case, you need a new job where they don't put you in situations where you could be shot or killed...rather than worrying whether or not you can carry. Truth is if and when the time came...how many of you could pull the trigger? You talk a good game here...but really think about it, could you ?

I may not be the norm but I can also tell you this, I hated carrying off duty, it was a royal pain in the rear and it was easier to not put myself in situations where I thought I might need a weapon.

I'll give you this, it is a proven fact that states that allow conceal carry have less crimes against person...so I'm not saying it's a bad thing, just make sure your carrying it for the right reason...not because it's "Macho".

And lastly, if your going to carry, get professionally trained on the care and use of a handgun, there is a lot more to it then point and pull...or aiming at a target. You want to have some real fun with your handgun get trained and compete in some combat shoots, learn all the functions and then God forbid should the time come when you really had to use it, you may walk away victorious instead of another statistic.

[zw17]

I knew I would get a few responses... just not one this ... ummm ... I'm not going to say it.


Take the trucks away ... :confused:
You can defend yourself without a gun ...I know I have.

A gun can turn a small problem into a much bigger one sometimes.

A gun can avert problems too.

You sound a little too eager to “solve” problems to me.

My truck, my employee, my law suit, I tell guys that work for me that if they ever feel unsafe at any time for any reason to leave, remove yourself from the danger zone. It has rarely happened, and is usually more worry about the truck then personal safety.


I have a very special response for you VCM1161....

One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me: "Most
of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle,
productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident." This is
true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the
aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is
that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another.

Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent
crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time
record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million
Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime
is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year.
Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat
offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less
than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation:
We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is
still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent
people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or
under extreme provocation. They are sheep.

I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me, it is like the
pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it
will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without
its hard blue shell.

Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, And
someday the civilization they protect will grow into something
wonderful. For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the
predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves
feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out
there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it.
There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The
moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep.
There is no safety in denial.

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to
protect the flock and confront the wolf."

If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive
citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for
your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf.

But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your
fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone
who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of
darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed

Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep,
wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, that is
what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in
the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why
they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire
exits throughout their kids' schools.

But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police
officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands of times more
likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence than fire,
but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial.
The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their child is just too hard,
and so they chose the path of denial.

The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the
wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference,
though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm
the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little
lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way,
at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.

Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that
there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them
where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our
airports, in camouflage fatigues, holding an M-16. The sheep would much
rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white,
and go, "Baa." Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries
desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.

The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough high
school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not have
had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they
just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack,
however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the
officers had to physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of
them. This is how the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when the
wolf is at the door.

Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded
hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt
differently about their law enforcement officers and military personnel?
Remember how many times you heard the word hero?

Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a
sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a
sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the
perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the
night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs
yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and
wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed, right along
with the young ones.

Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep
pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day.
After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is,
most citizens in America said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those
planes." The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, "Dear God, I wish I could
have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference."
When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested
yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to
make a difference.

There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, but
he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that he is able
to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the
population.

There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals convicted
of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious, predatory
crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement
officers. The vast majority said that they specifically targeted victims
by body language: Slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness.
They chose their victims like big cats do in Africa, when they select
one out of the herd that is least able to protect itself.

Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be genetically
primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that most people can
choose which one they want to be, and I'm proud to say that more and
more Americans are choosing to become sheepdogs.

Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was
honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall,
was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone
to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When he
learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as
weapons, Todd dropped his phone and uttered the words, "Let's roll,"
which authorities believe was a signal to the other passengers to
confront the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred
among the passengers - athletes, business people and parents. -- from
sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately
saving an unknown number of lives on the ground.

There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil
of evil men. - Edmund Burke

Here is the point I like to emphasize, especially to the thousands of
police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the sheep,
real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, and so are
wolves. They didn't have a choice. But you are not a critter. As a human
being, you can be whatever you want to be. It is a conscious, moral
decision.

If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay, but
you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you and your
loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to protect
you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are
going to hunt you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust or
love. But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior's path, then
you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate,
equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment
when the wolf comes knocking at the door.

For example, many officers carry their weapons in church. They are well
concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or inside-the-belt
holsters tucked into the small of their backs. Anytime you go to some
form of religious service, there is a very good chance that a police
officer in your congregation is carrying. You will never know if there
is such an individual in your place of worship, until the wolf appears
to massacre you and your loved ones.

I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the
break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in church.
The other cop replied, "I will never be caught without my gun in
church." I asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me
about a cop he knew who was at a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas in
1999. In that incident, a mentally deranged individual came into the
church and opened fire, gunning down fourteen people. He said that
officer believed he could have saved every life that day if he had been
carrying his gun. His own son was shot, and all he could do was throw
himself on the boy's body and wait to die. That cop looked me in the eye
and said, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with
yourself after that?"

Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer was
carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and would
probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be enraged and
would call for "heads to roll" if they found out that the airbags in
their cars were defective, or that the fire extinguisher and fire
sprinklers in their kids' school did not work. They can accept the fact
that fires and traffic accidents can happen and that there must be
safeguards against them.

Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too often
their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the sheepdog
quietly asks himself, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live
with yourself if your loved ones were attacked and killed, and you had
to stand there helplessly because you were unprepared for that day?"

It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically
destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is
counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and
horror when the wolf shows up.

Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth when
you are not physically prepared: you didn't bring your gun, you didn't
train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is not a strategy.
Denial kills you a second time because even if you do physically
survive, you are psychologically shattered by your fear, helplessness
and horror at your moment of truth.

Gavin de Becker puts it like this in Fear Less, his superb post-9/11
book, which should be required reading for anyone trying to come to
terms with our current world situation: "...denial can be seductive, but
it has an insidious side effect. For all the peace of mind deniers think
they get by saying it isn't so, the fall they take when faced with new
violence is all the more unsettling."

Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written entirely in
small print, for in the long run, the denying person knows the truth on
some level. And so the warrior must strive to confront denial in all
aspects of his life, and prepare himself for the day when evil comes.

If you are warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you
step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending
that the bad man will not come today. No one can be "on" 24/7, for a
lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a
weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and
say this to yourself..."Baa."

This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no dichotomy.
It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of
degrees, a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-sand-sheep
and on the other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist
completely on one end or the other.

Most of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost everyone in
America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took
a few steps toward accepting and appreciating their warriors, and the
warriors started taking their job more seriously. The degree to which
you move up that continuum, away from sheephood and denial, is the
degree to which you and your loved ones will survive, physically and
psychologically at your moment of truth.


You see VCM1161... It may be that you are, simply, a sheep. There's no dishonor in being a sheep - - as long as you know and accept what you are.

[BamaCool]

Anyone who refuses repeated commands from a uniformed police officer to drop the gun is an untrained idiot.

I agree with you about being educational but your post kind of slants to the left. He didn't die because he had a gun, he died because he refused to drop the gun after being ordered to repeatedly by the police.

He drew when he should not have (was his life in danger or was he scared?) That was his 1st mistake.
Read the full story again. Another tech said that from where this guy was at there was probably no way he could hear anything the cops said because of the equipment running. He probably only saw flashlights, got scared because of where he was at, and did what he should have done - draw his gun while he had the chance. It's a misfortunate ordeal. I don't see any fault here on either side. The cops came suspecting copper thiefs, and were ready to do business because of that. Maybe they should have noticed the logo on the van and called the company first to see if somebody was supposed to be there. I can tell you this though, If I was in his shoes, and all I saw was flashlights pointed toward me, I'm not gonna walk toward them and ask them nicely if they're cops are not. I'm goona duck and draw!

[bigtime]

You must be the big bad wolf. Vmc is a vietnam vet, and you are a punk.

[zw17]

Read the full story again. Another tech said that from where this guy was at there was probably no way he could hear anything the cops said because of the equipment running. He probably only saw flashlights, got scared because of where he was at, and did what he should have done - draw his gun while he had the chance. It's a misfortunate ordeal. I don't see any fault here on either side. The cops came suspecting copper thiefs, and were ready to do business because of that. Maybe they should have noticed the logo on the van and called the company first to see if somebody was supposed to be there. I can tell you this though, If I was in his shoes, and all I saw was flashlights pointed toward me, I'm not gonna walk toward them and ask them nicely if they're cops are not. I'm goona duck and draw!

This is dead wrong Bama and I am going to disagree with you. I have 100's of hours of self defense training and rule #1 is you never clear leather unless your life is in immediate danger or serious bodily harm.

Was his life in immediate danger? Not according to this report. He drew because he saw flashlights, a threat yes, a reason to draw, no.

I guess it's easy to Monday morning quarterback this report and I am sure the truth is out there somewhere but it seems like a lack of common sense on both sides that led up to this tragedy.

PS- Never draw until you 100% identify your threat, like this guy it could be the police.

[zw17]

You must be the big bad wolf. Vmc is a vietnam vet, and you are a punk.

Well thought out response. :rolleyes:

VCM, no disrespect meant and thank you for your service, sir. :)

[BamaCool]

And lastly, if your going to carry, get professionally trained on the care and use of a handgun, there is a lot more to it then point and pull...or aiming at a target.
No disrespect here, Senior, But as far as I'm concerned, if you have to be trained to handle a gun, you shouldn't have one. It's common sense. If you didn't learn it growing up - first of all I feel sorry for you - and find yourself at 40 years old and don't know what to do with a gun - forget it. Responsible gun usage is not training, it's common sense, which unfortunately the majority of citizens have none of anymore.:mad:

[WhoIsThat?]

even though I'm only 5'4", 110 lbs. One day I'm on a job, somebody robs me,
With all that is riding on this, spend some money getting a lawyer's advice and memorize that advice. It will show "due diligence" on your part.
I've heard of a cop who shot three guys who were stomping the cr@p out of him. The Police Dept. cleared him but one of the survivors sued him in civil court and it was ruinous.

[Senior Tech]

No disrespect here, Senior, But as far as I'm concerned, if you have to be trained to handle a gun, you shouldn't have one. It's common sense. If you didn't learn it growing up - first of all I feel sorry for you - and find yourself at 40 years old and don't know what to do with a gun - forget it. Responsible gun usage is not training, it's common sense, which unfortunately the majority of citizens have none of anymore.:mad:

I can drive cars at over 120 mph...common sense tells me not to not how to.

There is nothing wrong or embarrassing about training. I was a professional and I still trained on a routine basis. I was also the Chief...my officers were required to train and qualify on a regular basis.
Your statement only solidifies my thought that you would be the last person I would want handling a weapon...you my friend, would be a danger to yourself and others....that's fact.

[BamaCool]

This is dead wrong Bama and I am going to disagree with you. I have 100's of hours of self defense training and rule #1 is you never clear leather unless your life is in immediate danger or serious bodily harm.

Was his life in immediate danger? Not according to this report. He drew because he saw flashlights, a threat yes, a reason to draw, no.

I guess it's easy to Monday morning quarterback this report and I am sure the truth is out there somewhere but it seems like a lack of common sense on both sides that led up to this tragedy.

PS- Never draw until you 100% identify your threat, like this guy it could be the police.
So, you would start walking toward the light and after 6 hoods shot you bacuse you can't see what they're doing, then you'll draw? How many holes can you handle and still shoot back? You say "identify your threat". If you're in a dark corner with lights shining at you, you ain't identifying anything other than, "I'm in deep doo doo"!

[BamaCool]

With all that is riding on this, spend some money getting a lawyer's advice and memorize that advice. It will show "due diligence" on your part.
I've heard of a cop who shot three guys who were stomping the cr@p out of him. The Police Dept. cleared him but one of the survivors sued him in civil court and it was ruinous.
I own my company, so I make the rules. I like it!:D

[zw17]

So, you would start walking toward the light and after 6 hoods shot you bacuse you can't see what they're doing, then you'll draw? How many holes can you handle and still shoot back? You say "identify your threat". If you're in a dark corner with lights shining at you, you ain't identifying anything other than, "I'm in deep doo doo"!

I would not walk towards the light. I would take up a defensive position, try and put some room and a solid barrier between the threat and myself, and remain alert until I could figure out who was who and what was happening. I also carry a flashlight to stay out of the dark.

Your 1st instinct cannot be to go for your gun, it could get you killed as you read in the above article. You have to exhaust every resource before using your gun. Your gun is an absolute last resort when all else fails.

I have carried for going on 6yrs now and never once drawn my gun. Never even come close to it, and if I never have to I will be a happy man. :)

[jpsmith1cm]

Agreed.

A gun is the LAST resort, not the first.

I am on my third permit here in PA, so that is 10 years of carrying a gun.

When I was 22, it WAS for the wrong reasons. I can admit that now. I wanted to be a badass and that was the easy way. I was NEVER without a gun.

Senior tech is right, though, carrying concealed is a pain on the tail. I'd rather just strap a 4" revolver on and let the world know. Keeping it hidden at all times is tough.

It has worn on me a little. I don't carry everyday. Just when I feel as if I might be going into one of those bad calls.

And to the guy who said "don't take those calls". Sorry, I don't get to pick and choose my calls. The phone rings, I go. End of story. That's my job. Either that or maybe I can get a job with you.

Do I want to run around shooting people? No. Really, I just want to be left alone to lead my life the best way that I can.

You leave me alone, I'll leave you alone and we can all be friends.

Sadly, I'm also wise enough to see that the world doesn't always work that way. There are people who don't want to live and let live. People who have no regard for human life.

It is because of those few that I keep my CCW permit and a fistful of shells next to the .357.

[BamaCool]

Your statement only solidifies my thought that you would be the last person I would want handling a weapon...you my friend, would be a danger to yourself and others....that's fact.
Criticism from a moderator, I like it. That makes this self defense!
Your reply demonstrates the type of mentality that has been ruining this country. Where I'm from, everybody grew up with guns and we will continue to have them - REGARDLESS - of what anybody else thinks. Now for what you've said, I have the following to say, and If I break your rules, bossman, ban me. I remember Robo getting banned for less than how you just referred to me. I replied to you post with respect. I didn't direct anything toward you, such as you have with me, but since you like it that way, then here we go:
It's a totally different world here than it is up in Yankeeland - look, no name calling, I just referred to a region. I've been carrying a gun for well over 20 years. I've used it ONE time in self defense. All I had to do was pull it out and wait for the cops to show up. See, we still have a little common sense around here. When I called the cops, I said "I'll be the one holding a Glock 19 on two punks". The cops showed up, one of them laid his hand on my shoulder and said "We got you covered, you can put your gun up now". And I did. Never even asked me for a permit. They didn't care because I was being responsible with my handling of my gun. I wasn't being an idiot. I've got 4 buddies that are cops and we go shooting at each other's houses all the time. They've been through all the required training, and I've been through none, yet we all practice the same knowledge and safety. How do you explain that, Mr, Perfect High and Mighty Moderator? Ain't that some $hi+!
You have no idea "my friend". I would be the FIRST one you would want on your side, but you can count me out for that. I believe in survival of the fittest, and you just ain't mentally fit enough.
You want to attack me for a statement that I made that had NOTHING to do with you. I simply added to a statment that you had made, and you make a personal attack on me. You're a moderator???????? How the hell did that happen?

[BamaCool]

I would not walk towards the light. I would take up a defensive position, try and put some room and a solid barrier between the threat and myself, and remain alert until I could figure out who was who and what was happening. I also carry a flashlight to stay out of the dark.

Your 1st instinct cannot be to go for your gun, it could get you killed as you read in the above article. You have to exhaust every resource before using your gun. Your gun is an absolute last resort when all else fails.

I have carried for going on 6yrs now and never once drawn my gun. Never even come close to it, and if I never have to I will be a happy man. :)
Now this, I can agree with!;)

[the dangling wrangler]

Fact is, you don't know what you're gonna do,untill it happens. The tech that took that bullet, most likely lost any insurance he had by carrying against company policy. Wanna bet they don't send people out at that time of day again? Or if they do, they notify the local PD first.

[Senior Tech]

Criticism from a moderator, I like it. That makes this self defense!
Your reply demonstrates the type of mentality that has been ruining this country. Where I'm from, everybody grew up with guns and we will continue to have them - REGARDLESS - of what anybody else thinks. Now for what you've said, I have the following to say, and If I break your rules, bossman, ban me. I remember Robo getting banned for less than how you just referred to me. I replied to you post with respect. I didn't direct anything toward you, such as you have with me, but since you like it that way, then here we go:
It's a totally different world here than it is up in Yankeeland - look, no name calling, I just referred to a region. I've been carrying a gun for well over 20 years. I've used it ONE time in self defense. All I had to do was pull it out and wait for the cops to show up. See, we still have a little common sense around here. When I called the cops, I said "I'll be the one holding a Glock 19 on two punks". The cops showed up, one of them laid his hand on my shoulder and said "We got you covered, you can put your gun up now". And I did. Never even asked me for a permit. They didn't care because I was being responsible with my handling of my gun. I wasn't being an idiot. I've got 4 buddies that are cops and we go shooting at each other's houses all the time. They've been through all the required training, and I've been through none, yet we all practice the same knowledge and safety. How do you explain that, Mr, Perfect High and Mighty Moderator? Ain't that some $hi+!
You have no idea "my friend". I would be the FIRST one you would want on your side, but you can count me out for that. I believe in survival of the fittest, and you just ain't mentally fit enough.
You want to attack me for a statement that I made that had NOTHING to do with you. I simply added to a statment that you had made, and you make a personal attack on me. You're a moderator???????? How the hell did that happen?

My statements have nothing to do with the fact that I'm a moderator. I'm a member first. Your reply shows exactly why you might want to rethink carrying a weapon. And I stand by my statement...no training should equal no carry. Now I am a moderator second...the kindler gentler moderator, so I'll ignore what you stated...and now you know why and how I became a moderator...because I'm mentally fit enough to withstand much worse than what you can dish out...

[Some Dude]

Did that kill the thread?

[Senior Tech]

Did that kill the thread?

As I stated...I'm a member first, and I see no reason to kill the thread.
Bama has a right to his opinion, just as I do. And a little debate can healthy for what ails ya. ;)

[beenthere]

the kindler gentler moderator,

You been reading Robo's sig again. LOL

[Senior Tech]

Geez...you made me go look...

[captube]

Your state must pass the Make My day Law in order to protect you from lawsuits in a justifiable shooting.



"The purpose of the law is to protect the victim of crime who defends his home and his family against unlawful intrusion from any criminal prosecution or civil action,

http://oksenate.gov/news/National_Media/nm20041031.html

[beenthere]

Geez...you made me go look...
LOL... :D

[vmc1161]

So let's do a "What If", since everybody is so damn lawsuit crazy. I work for you and you don't allow me the to carry a gun for self defense, (which I would do anyway, you just wouldn't know it) even though I'm only 5'4", 110 lbs. One day I'm on a job, somebody robs me, takes all YOUR tools, and then kills me. Can my wife now sue YOU because you denied me my right for self defense?:confused:

I would be horrified if that were to happen ... those tools were expensive ...:eek: ;)


Hmmm... What does your wife look like ... :D ;)


Sure, she can sue anyone can sue.


Look we just see this in different ways ... the guy that is doing the crime most likely would have the drop on you ... see he knows what he is about to do and you don't know he is about to do it. I do not know what the odds are, I am guessing not well. If I were to send you into a high crime area, I may be persuaded to re-think my position. I could check with the police and maybe a knowledgeable lawyer and change my position. I just do not think at this time that a gun in the truck is a good idea.



.

[vmc1161]

Did that kill the thread?

http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/image.php?u=47644&dateline=1237287056


Oh man ... that avatar is too funny ... :D ... is that zw17 ... :D ;)

.

[Dad]

No need to carry. I AM A WEAPON !








Ya know... if looks can kill I'm so ugly you'll drop dead at first site.

[the dangling wrangler]

No need to carry. I AM A WEAPON !


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhUkGIsKvn0&feature=related

[vmc1161]

Well thought out response. :rolleyes:

VCM, no disrespect meant and thank you for your service, sir. :)


I took no disrespect from you calling me a sheep ... I thought you were putting a move on me ... :eek: I'm not like that, I know I'm from Massachusetts, but I don't swing that way ... :D ;)


Hey I busted on you so you busted on me ... no problem ... we can agree to disagree. It's a lot easier to get a point across in person, I think we would get along fine ... kind of like abbott and costello ... :D I don't come here to make enemies, I also have thick skin, I even like Dice and Robo ... :eek: :D


.


.

[Dad]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhUkGIsKvn0&feature=related



LOL

[vmc1161]

No need to carry. I AM A WEAPON !








Ya know... if looks can kill I'm so ugly you'll drop dead at first site.



Finally something we can agree on ... you being ugly that is ... :D



.

[jpsmith1cm]

Your state must pass the Make My day Law in order to protect you from lawsuits in a justifiable shooting.




http://oksenate.gov/news/National_Media/nm20041031.html

Why is this law even being debated?? This should be the law nationwide. It's just common sense.

If an uninvited person comes into MY home with malicious intent, the police can come clean up the mess. They won't get there soon enough to stop anything.

MY home. MY castle. MY rules.

It goes beyond self defense to private property rights. I pay my mortgage, taxes and all other expenses related to being a homeowner, yet have to run and hide in a bedroom and let some monster ravage MY home?!?!

Not likely. He will get exactly 1 warning from me, anything less than instant obedience will result in a bunch of little lead balls heading his way, REALLY FAST.

Remember, when seconds count, the police are minutes away.

[Dad]

**Officer, I have no idea why the blood trial starts out on my sidewalk. He must have forgotten something and came back in after I put six in his chest.**


Respectively, there is a time and place for everything. Judgment is not inbred but learned by example or professional training period. There is a difference between protective use and fear that no training can test. If you are going to carry then carry with the proper attitude and resolve.


.02

[the dangling wrangler]

Quick question jp. Have you ever had to put another man in your front site? I don't know you but, you seem a little trigger happy to me. I think if you ever had to "neutralize" a situation, you might not think the same way. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

[the dangling wrangler]

LOL

Now I'm gonna be thinking about that song for the rest of the day. :D

[the dangling wrangler]

I don't come here to make enemies


.


.

Ding,Ding,Ding, we have a winner. Too bad more folks here don't think the same way.

[Dad]

Now I'm gonna be thinking about that song for the rest of the day. :D

I'm just glad it wasn't the Brady Bunch theme.

[the dangling wrangler]

I'm just glad it wasn't the Brady Bunch theme.

Yep. I couldn't handle that for too long. I think that was about the same time. '72, '73, or '74.

[zw17]

I took no disrespect from you calling me a sheep ... I thought you were putting a move on me ... :eek: I'm not like that, I know I'm from Massachusetts, but I don't swing that way ... :D ;)


Hey I busted on you so you busted on me ... no problem ... we can agree to disagree. It's a lot easier to get a point across in person, I think we would get along fine ... kind of like abbott and costello ... :D I don't come here to make enemies, I also have thick skin, I even like Dice and Robo ... :eek: :D

My farm animal fetish is none of this boards business. :D

I would be proud to share a beer with ya anytime VCM, and if you ever in the Ohio area and want to do some (responsible) target shooting feel free to look me up. Maybe I could sway your opinion on CCW and responsible practices.

And again, thank you for your service, sir.

[jpsmith1cm]

First off, I don't need euphamisms to soften language. There is no "neutralize". There is kill. I have seen up close what a gun can do to the human body. It is ugly. I know, I watched it happen.

I don't carry because I want to shoot people. Maybe I am not communicating that well. If I really wanted to shoot people, I would probably already be in jail.

I carry because I want to be left alone. I work alone, sometimes in dark places and in bad neighborhoods. I love my wife and my children and am their sole means of financial support in this world.

Whatever it takes to make it home and life to see them another day, I will do.

If, god forbid, such a day comes that I DO have to use my gun in self defense, I harbor no illusions that it will change me. I have seen death up close and actually kissed her face once. It changed me then, it would change me again.

[the dangling wrangler]

First off, I don't need euphamisms to soften language. There is no "neutralize". There is kill.

Every instructor I've ever practiced with thinks differently.I've been taught to neutralize, not kill. As a matter of fact, the word kill was frowned on. Not trying to argue, just sayin'

[WhoIsThat?]

I've been taught to neutralize
I heard it was "stopping power". That's why a 0.38 is not such a good choice, but a 0.45, at 40% more kinetic energy, is.
Shock without the awe.
"Dead" men still have about 10 seconds to kill/wound you.

[srmfsr]

Every instructor I've ever practiced with thinks differently.I've been taught to neutralize, not kill. As a matter of fact, the word kill was frowned on. Not trying to argue, just sayin'


Strange, every instructor I've heard says "make the threat go away." Don't pull it unless it is a life threatening situation to you or someone else, then make it go away.
Use the largest gun you can is what they have recommended. the smaller weapons, ie: 22,32,38 will kill but it takes awhile, use something to put them down immediately is what they recommend. Such as in a 9mm, use 147 grain lead, not 115 or 124. But on the other hand don't use what I carry: a 45 loaded with Black Talons. Because a jury might think if you're carrying Black Talons you were looking to kill someone. But I want the threat to go away and the Black Talons will help.

[zw17]

Every instructor I've ever practiced with thinks differently.I've been taught to neutralize, not kill. As a matter of fact, the word kill was frowned on. Not trying to argue, just sayin'

Very true. If you went into a courtroom after a self defense shooting and used the word "kill" I think your lawyer would have a heart attack on the spot.

You always "shoot to stop the threat" Now whether that is all 17rds of your mag or just 2 shots is very subjective and can be argued, but hey, you were just trying to "stop the threat" so you could survive. ;)

Another bit of advice, and before I give it I would like to say I am not a lawyer so take it for what it's worth... Never say anything to the police after a good shoot. Name, address, and the words, "I shot in self defense, I was in fear for my life, with all due respect officer I cannot say anymore before I consult with my attorney" Zip it after that. Every word that comes out of your mouth could end up costing you money to have a lawyer defend in court. We fix HVAC, not argue laws.

[the dangling wrangler]

Strange, every instructor I've heard says "make the threat go away." Don't pull it unless it is a life threatening situation to you or someone else, then make it go away.
Use the largest gun you can is what they have recommended. the smaller weapons, ie: 22,32,38 will kill but it takes awhile, use something to put them down immediately is what they recommend. Such as in a 9mm, use 147 grain lead, not 115 or 124. But on the other hand don't use what I carry: a 45 loaded with Black Talons. Because a jury might think if you're carrying Black Talons you were looking to kill someone. But I want the threat to go away and the Black Talons will help.


Every instructor has his or her own style. I'm gonna stick with what works for me. There's bullets now, that make Black Talons look like firecrackers. Didn't they stop making Talons 10 or more years ago? Do you really think you're loosing that much stopping power, if you're shooting 115 grain over 147? I can't answer that question. Can you? (with a link, of course)

[zw17]

Every instructor has his or her own style. I'm gonna stick with what works for me. There's bullets now, that make Black Talons look like firecrackers. Didn't they stop making Talons 10 or more years ago? Do you really think you're loosing that much stopping power, if you're shooting 115 grain over 147? I can't answer that question. Can you? (with a link, of course)

Black Talons were only renamed because of the bad press they got for being 'cop killers' :rolleyes: The same exact bullet is now called "Ranger T's" and are manufactured by Winchester.

As for stopping power... 147gr penetrates better but is obviously a little slower than a 115gr. A 115gr has more energy behind it but obviously lighter than the 147gr.

It's all a trade off and you need to pick what is best for you. Think penetration of summer clothing vs winter clothing, glass, car doors, etc...

[the dangling wrangler]

All I know is this, if you take another persons life, you'll never be the same. Unless you're some kind of psychopath.

[zw17]

All I know is this, if you take another persons life, you'll never be the same. Unless you're some kind of psychopath.

Agreed, but you would still be alive and able to try and overcome it.

I just want to make it home everyday to see my loved ones, as we all do. :)

[captube]

Why is this law even being debated?? This should be the law nationwide. It's just common sense.

If an uninvited person comes into MY home with malicious intent, the police can come clean up the mess. They won't get there soon enough to stop anything.

MY home. MY castle. MY rules.

It goes beyond self defense to private property rights. I pay my mortgage, taxes and all other expenses related to being a homeowner, yet have to run and hide in a bedroom and let some monster ravage MY home?!?!

Not likely. He will get exactly 1 warning from me, anything less than instant obedience will result in a bunch of little lead balls heading his way, REALLY FAST.

Remember, when seconds count, the police are minutes away.

It is the law in OK. since 04.
Here are the states


Adoption by States

Alabama,[8] Alaska, Arizona, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, and Texas have adopted Castle Doctrine statutes, and other states (Montana, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, Washington, and Wyoming) are currently considering "Stand Your Ground" laws of their own.


In Oklahoma (according to the Oklahoma State Courts Network), the amendment changes a number of other aspects of the Oklahoma Self Defense Act, the statutes concerning justifiable homicide. As 21 O.S. 2001, Section 1289.25 now lists circumstances in which it is presumed that a person who uses deadly force "reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony." In addition, it helps to protect law-abiding citizens from arrest when using deadly force. Law enforcement agencies must now have probable cause to believe that the use of deadly force was unlawful before an arrest can be made.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Doctrine

There has been 1 prosecution of an individual here for a shooting over a road rage type incident, which i believe was a wrongful prosecution.The victim was drunk and the shooter was a off duty security officer with CLEET certification, he was also twice the age of the victim and retreated around his vehicle before shooting the drunk. Go figure. I'll have to dig that up if anyone wants to see the facts.

[the dangling wrangler]

Over a hundred replies, and not one person has mentioned body armor. I bought a vest 4 or 5 years ago. It might have been worn twice. We're not going to war, we're going to work. Guess I just don't feel as threatened as I once did.Or, just don't go to those places anymore. If you think you're gonna have to cap someone, you might not need to do that call. I wouldn't.

[WhoIsThat?]

Never say anything to the police after a good shoot. Name, address, and the words, "I shot in self defense, I was in fear for my life, with all due respect officer I cannot say anymore before I consult with my attorney" Zip it after that.

The only person who cannot testify against you is your own lawyer. The witnesses and the police are not your "friends."

[jpsmith1cm]

All I know is this, if you take another persons life, you'll never be the same. Unless you're some kind of psychopath.

We agree on that. As I mentioned before, I have seen death up close. It is ugly and it changed me.

When I said that I didn't need euphamisms, I meant that, if I ever have to pull that trigger, I understand what is going to happen.

Another person is probably going to die. It will be by my hand that it happened. I will have killed that person. Not neutralized, not stopped, killed.

I will have the rest of my life to make psychologists rich dealing with it, but, at least I will have my life.

It is not lightly that I make the decision to carry a gun. It will not be lightly that I decide to use it.

[the dangling wrangler]

I'm sure some of the guys here will remember this one. Death was our business, and business was good. With that, I'll unsubscribe from this thread.

[WhoIsThat?]

I bought a vest 4 or 5 years ago.

This changes the whole "balance of power" thing.

In some situations a Reasonable Person should feel fear and should feel helpless. A vest allows some relief from these feelings before doin' the Dirty Harry thing.
You and the other guy each having a gun does not give such relief 'cause you are both relatively equal (but the bystanders are still in danger).

But, the law might look more harshly on someone with a vest who still fired. Dunno', these legal online caselaw databases charge fees.

I should have bought a vest along with my six-gun.

[vmc1161]

Safe Bedside Table Great For Peace Of Mind And Occasional Overnight Beatings

http://www.ohgizmo.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/safe_table.jpg


By Andrew Liszewski

While an alarm system will let you know if someone has broken into your home it won’t do much to stop a determined intruder once they’re inside. So instead of sleeping with a gun under the pillow try this Safe Bedside Table instead. When not in use it looks like a normal bedside table with modern design stylings but in the middle of the night if you think there might be an intruder the table turns into a club and shield giving you somewhat of a fighting chance.

Designed by James McAdam the Safe Bedside Table was created in response to a report that 50% of people in London were worried about security and kept some sort of self-defense close by while they slept. And while the table isn’t available for sale anyone with a lathe, bandsaw and basic carpentry skills could probably just build their own.

[jpsmith1cm]

That's funny.

Perfect for England, where, after strict gun control was enacted, violent crime SOARED, but that is a topic for another time and place.

[The Penguin]

Why is this law even being debated?? This should be the law nationwide. It's just common sense.

If an uninvited person comes into MY home with malicious intent, the police can come clean up the mess. They won't get there soon enough to stop anything.

MY home. MY castle. MY rules.

It goes beyond self defense to private property rights. I pay my mortgage, taxes and all other expenses related to being a homeowner, yet have to run and hide in a bedroom and let some monster ravage MY home?!?!

Not likely. He will get exactly 1 warning from me, anything less than instant obedience will result in a bunch of little lead balls heading his way, REALLY FAST.

Remember, when seconds count, the police are minutes away.

The title - carry concealed carry firaarm at work

A bit different from a home invasion in my book

[jpsmith1cm]

Refer to the link in the post that I quoted.

Primarily about having to retreat when your home is invaded. My response was to that.

[kytinknocker]

Police investigate crime not prevent it so protect yourself

[beachtech]

hey VMC

sleep with gun straped to underside of that table :D

i am boss now, so yes i can carry while at work :D

[vmc1161]

hey VMC

sleep with gun straped to underside of that table :D

i am boss now, so yes i can carry while at work :D


I would be a little nervous ... fumbling around in the dark ... my nuts are about the same height as that table ... bang :eek: :D ;)



I don't begrudge anyone doing what they feel is right, as long as one of the things they do right is follow company policy. So you are the boss now ... how does it feel to work for an A-hole? ... :D ;)


.

[the dangling wrangler]

I just couldn't stay away. This is scary stuff.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/phoenix/articles/2009/03/18/20090318shotsue0318.html

[beenthere]

By that report.

I hope he wins, and 2 of those officers are removed from the force.

[the dangling wrangler]

By that report.

I hope he wins, and 2 of those officers are removed from the force.

You got that right. Somethin' isn't quite right there.

[John Culpepper]

The only reason I carry is because I had to work someone over with a pipe wrench once,...... and it made me tired.(and it was really messy and not very humane):p

[actoken]

At all times!I have sheriff friends, they all say better be safe than sorry!

Ive been mugged before!
I dont carry any money with me anymore.
If i reach in my pocket, it wont be a wallet i pull out!
If you ever see it, you would hear it first!
It's small, but loud.

Never had to use it, thank God.
Ive carried for five years.

It does not go with me into homes or attics.For safety of course.
I hate the fact that I even have one.
Live by the sword, die by it, right?

[the dangling wrangler]

The only reason I carry is because I had to work someone over with a pipe wrench once,...... and it made me tired.(and it was really messy and not very humane):p

I like that one.

[Some Dude]

The only reason I carry is because I had to work someone over with a pipe wrench once,...... and it made me tired.(and it was really messy and not very humane):p

Bravo

[Diceman]

Don't we already have a thread about this stuff?




:D

[the dangling wrangler]

Don't we already have a thread about this stuff?




:D

Only one?

[Senior Tech]

Don't we already have a thread about this stuff?




:D

We're talking real guns here...not those peashooters the FBI tried out...:D

[Texas-Tech]

YES AND YES

[Some Dude]

So its settled we now have two.:)