Designing the perfect handheld - Your input needed

[Dwyerguy]

Ok guys, time for your input.

Always looking for product improvements. So with our handhelds (Dwyer), I am open to items that would make your life easier and your service quicker. Some ideas already picked up include:
-averaging for duct traversing
-Recessed "on/off" button
- CFM reading
-magnet on back (A must right?)


Let me through a couple ideas and you can tell me if they are good or not:
-ability to read temperature differential wirelessly (furnace rating calc, across a boiler)
- Calculate enthalpy for air conditioner charging - so sensing inside house while monitoring the charging. What would all the parameters be needed to accomplish this?
- Someone mentioned WB & DB - is it for this application?


Anything else you guys can come up with? Not only what but how does it fit into the application/service?

[fcs]

Back light for when working in dark areas

Keep with the large readout (some of us are old farts, like me)

That which you listed above sounds great.

[Dwyerguy]

Back light for when working in dark areas

Keep with the large readout (some of us are old farts, like me)

That which you listed above sounds great.

- Backlight and Larger readout ( Done)

[DesMech]

Ok guys, time for your input.

Always looking for product improvements. So with our handhelds (Dwyer), I am open to items that would make your life easier and your service quicker. Some ideas already picked up include:
-averaging for duct traversing
-Recessed "on/off" button
- CFM reading
-magnet on back (A must right?)


Let me through a couple ideas and you can tell me if they are good or not:
-ability to read temperature differential wirelessly (furnace rating calc, across a boiler)
- Calculate enthalpy for air conditioner charging - so sensing inside house while monitoring the charging. What would all the parameters be needed to accomplish this?
- Someone mentioned WB & DB - is it for this application?


Anything else you guys can come up with? Not only what but how does it fit into the application/service?

Accuracy. IMHO, .5% of full scale is unacceptable. While your at it, how about a resolution of .001" with a range of maybe +/- 20". And of course this must be able to be calibrated to NIST traceable standards. The other ideas mentioned are good too. As for enthalpy, wet bulb and dry bulb, that is okay, but I would imagine that would add a significant cost to this unit (ala Testo 435). Oh yea, I don't want to pay more than $99. :D

[beachtech]

Let me through a couple ideas and you can tell me if they are good or not:
-ability to read temperature differential wirelessly (furnace rating calc, across a boiler)
- Calculate enthalpy for air conditioner charging - so sensing inside house while monitoring the charging. What would all the parameters be needed to accomplish this?
- Someone mentioned WB & DB - is it for this application?


Anything else you guys can come up with? Not only what but how does it fit into the application/service?


IMO every meter made for this trade should have a backlight :) thanks for adding that to the list :)

WB/DB tempuratures are a must for charging and checking the air conditioning side of any system. those readings are important for many things. you can take those measurements and calculate system capacity as well as chacking system charge. If we are checking WB/DB across the equipment, why can we not check stactice pressure as well, with a built in digital manometer :) manometer would also make the tool usefull year round for checking static and gas pressure on gas fired equipment :)

also, the ability to print out measurements taken from the equipment is IMO a great thing to do. print a copy for your records and leave a copy with the equipment owner, which shows them what you checked and gives them a record of what's going on. if you see something has derastically changed from one year to the next, it's time to do a lil digging to find the root cause of the problem :)

[fcs]

IMO every meter made for this trade should have a backlight :) thanks for adding that to the list :)

WB/DB tempuratures are a must for charging and checking the air conditioning side of any system. those readings are important for many things. you can take those measurements and calculate system capacity as well as chacking system charge. If we are checking WB/DB across the equipment, why can we not check stactice pressure as well, with a built in digital manometer :) manometer would also make the tool usefull year round for checking static and gas pressure on gas fired equipment :)

also, the ability to print out measurements taken from the equipment is IMO a great thing to do. print a copy for your records and leave a copy with the equipment owner, which shows them what you checked and gives them a record of what's going on. if you see something has derastically changed from one year to the next, it's time to do a lil digging to find the root cause of the problem :)

I agree a printer port or even better a USB port.

[beachtech]

yea! USB would be great. that way you could use any printer, and even a memory stick to back things up for later access

[fcs]

Here a thought

down load software so you can easily down load to Excel (that an easy few lines of code) and Your PAD/Blackberry etc.:)

[Dwyerguy]

For logging - SD card /USB
I'm thinking modular, so a base unit and certian modules for air velocity, DP, temperature, etc.

Desmech - Higher accuracies are easier to achieve at a higher full range. (you can have a resolution of .00000001 but you might only be accurate to +- .05 so it kind of throws resolution out the door) Keep in mind resolution does not equal accuracy, some forget that. But if you really want is accuracy at a low low range, that will cost you. Where do you typically send your handhelds for NIST cal? back to the manufacture?

Beachtech - right now when you measure WB & DB what instrumentation do you use? And for the system inside the house, for charging, those are the only two data points you need?

Magnet on the back a must as well, right?

[Dwyerguy]

Another point - What features do you have now in a handheld (air velocity, Vane, Hot tip, etc) that you like the most?

[beachtech]

For logging - SD card /USB
I'm thinking modular, so a base unit and certian modules for air velocity, DP, temperature, etc.

Desmech - Higher accuracies are easier to achieve at a higher full range. (you can have a resolution of .00000001 but you might only be accurate to +- .05 so it kind of throws resolution out the door) Keep in mind resolution does not equal accuracy, some forget that. But if you really want is accuracy at a low low range, that will cost you. Where do you typically send your handhelds for NIST cal? back to the manufacture?

Beachtech - right now when you measure WB & DB what instrumentation do you use? And for the system inside the house, for charging, those are the only two data points you need?

Magnet on the back a must as well, right?

yes the magnet would be a very nice attachment to have :)

for WB/DB i am using a testo 605H2 since it easily can be put into the duct system. the rest is mathematical work that i perform through knowledge and skills :D

if the hand held can do that work for me, say input the WB/DB temps, and enthalpy difference and calculate the total capacity for me, that would really sweet! but then i may forget how to do it manually :o :o

for system charging SH/SC needs to be known.

have you seen the cooper atkins MFM-300. that may be something for you guys to look at and get an idea of what you're up against :)

[ch4man]

measure WB,DB and air density. with simple calculations the handheld would then plot all the air properties ( psycrometric chart) and not only display current readings but do comparitive readings. measure return air, then measure supply air and then calculate delta . give the user a way to input other variable such as duct size, btu output or cfm.

excuse the poor spelling and i hope ive accuratly stated what im after. a hand held that will measure whats nessasary for plotting air conditions on a psych chart chart can give a wealth of information

[fcs]

For a manometer I have the Dwyer Air flow Kit and the only complaint I it bounces around two much when trying to zero it.

I use the TIF VA500A and like it other then the vane is to big for inside duct work. A changeable vane (large to mini) would be nice. Also slow to get reading, and you have to convert RH to WB.

[cory321]

I think size is also important.It needs to be compact and light while maintaining durability

[fcs]

I think size is also important.It needs to be compact and light while maintaining durability

That's what I tell my wife when she mention size is important:D:p

[Profiler]

on a backlit display, make the display readable from various angles. ive noticed on some, when lit, you can only read it by looking straight at it.

magnetic back is also a must...a very strong durable magnet.

[beachtech]

i would rather have a mini vane than a hot wire IMO the mini vane is a lil more accurate in real world conditions ;)

[fcs]

on a backlit display, make the display readable from various angles. ive noticed on some, when lit, you can only read it by looking straight at it.

magnetic back is also a must...a very strong durable magnet.



Excellent point

[beachtech]

on a backlit display, make the display readable from various angles. ive noticed on some, when lit, you can only read it by looking straight at it.

magnetic back is also a must...a very strong durable magnet.


Excellent point

seriously!

i was going to overlook this, but i don't see the excellent point. i am sure if the guy is going to design a LCD display screen for us to be able to read the meter, he will do the best he can.

now how many times or how many other manufacturers have come to the site asking us what we would like to see in thier product????

and all we can do is harp about some display?

i am also sure he is going to build a meter that is as accurate as it can be.

so i agree with the accuracy, but it's gotta be realistic as well.

maybe we can point this guy in a good direction to design a tool that is very useful to us in the trade. it's not that often that tools are made specifically for our trade. which is most of the problem with meters!

we haven't heard back from him, i do hope he has checked out the cooper set up and got some ideas. i like the idea of the basic handheld that is expandable like the cooper.

[DesMech]

Desmech - Higher accuracies are easier to achieve at a higher full range. (you can have a resolution of .00000001 but you might only be accurate to +- .05 so it kind of throws resolution out the door) Keep in mind resolution does not equal accuracy, some forget that. But if you really want is accuracy at a low low range, that will cost you. Where do you typically send your handhelds for NIST cal? back to the manufacture?



I hear you on the accuracy vs resolution thing. Resolution is not as big of deal to me as accuracy at lower levels like .5" and lower, but this can be done with a manometer specifically built for this, and doesn't necessarily need to be included in a multifunction meter. For recalibration, some manufacturer's (TSI) do it or there are independent companies like Davis Instruments that do it as well. Good luck.

[fcs]

I was talk about the LED display I believe, not sure, but believe that a easy one.

Some of us Are old farts who eyes are bad.:eek: Like me:D

Beach I agree about the Cooper.

Singed
Grandpa FCS::D

[mcjo tech]

Dwyerguy,

I have some initial drawings and specifications for a handheld charging meter that incorporates ExactCharge Software. This meters ability is not currently available in the industry except perhaps by Star Gate whos functioning is similar but limited in nature. I can not go into too much more detail here but if you wish to correspond further you can send me a private message. My email is in my profile.

Joe
ExactCharge Industries,Inc.

[fcs]

Dwyerguy,

I have some initial drawings and specifications for a handheld charging meter that incorporates ExactCharge Software. This meters ability is not currently available in the industry except perhaps by Star Gate whos functioning is similar but limited in nature. I can not go into too much more detail here but if you wish to correspond further you can send me a private message. My email is in my profile.

Joe
ExactCharge Industries,Inc.


Thats a good idea I have the ExactCharge

[mdharris68]

Can you program this handheld to register BEER CAN COLD :D

[fcs]

Can you program this handheld to register BEER CAN COLD :D

:eek::eek:

Can it be programed to Order you a Beer:D

[mcjo tech]

Perhaps it could have GPS to show you where the closest establishment to purchase a beer is in regards to your location!!! Now we are getting close to the perfect handheld!!

[fcs]

Perhaps it could have GPS to show you where the closest establishment to purchase a beer is in regards to your location!!! Now we are getting close to the perfect handheld!!

The prefect would also point you to were all the great looking women are drink. Not that I would need that I never look I'm married:D

[Profiler]

i think i bring up a valid point with the display. even with my fluke dmm, when ive got it hanging using the magnet and i need both hands it doesnt help when it cant be read at the angle its at. he asked for ideas...im giving him some.

[Dwyerguy]

Guys, I've been on the road. Let me review all the input. I'm sure I will have a ton of questions/comments.

[Dwyerguy]

yes the magnet would be a very nice attachment to have :)


for system charging SH/SC needs to be known.

have you seen the cooper atkins MFM-300. that may be something for you guys to look at and get an idea of what you're up against :)

Just to be clear what is SH/SC?

[Dwyerguy]

measure WB,DB and air density. with simple calculations the handheld would then plot all the air properties ( psycrometric chart) and not only display current readings but do comparitive readings. measure return air, then measure supply air and then calculate delta . give the user a way to input other variable such as duct size, btu output or cfm.

excuse the poor spelling and i hope ive accuratly stated what im after. a hand held that will measure whats nessasary for plotting air conditions on a psych chart chart can give a wealth of information

Great input.

[Dwyerguy]

For a manometer I have the Dwyer Air flow Kit and the only complaint I it bounces around two much when trying to zero it.

I use the TIF VA500A and like it other then the vane is to big for inside duct work. A changeable vane (large to mini) would be nice. Also slow to get reading, and you have to convert RH to WB.

Changeable vane yes. - Now lets talk sizes - large what size and why? When you say mini are you talking about one like those weather mini vanes? OR what is the ideal mini size and why?

[Dwyerguy]

I think size is also important.It needs to be compact and light while maintaining durability

It would be longer due to better display than our current 475 or 477. Any potential issues with it being longer?

[Dwyerguy]

Dwyerguy,

I have some initial drawings and specifications for a handheld charging meter that incorporates ExactCharge Software. This meters ability is not currently available in the industry except perhaps by Star Gate whos functioning is similar but limited in nature. I can not go into too much more detail here but if you wish to correspond further you can send me a private message. My email is in my profile.

Joe
ExactCharge Industries,Inc.

Joe, we would be looking at more the air pressure/ WB/DB readings vs charging pressure. Just looking to make a handheld for multiple functions and applications. More bang for the buck. I'm assuming the software gets into the charge pressures as well?

[Dwyerguy]

i think i bring up a valid point with the display. even with my fluke dmm, when ive got it hanging using the magnet and i need both hands it doesnt help when it cant be read at the angle its at. he asked for ideas...im giving him some.

Great suggesstion. I'll take every idea I can get. SOmetimes it is the little things that make a product great.

It comes down to cost. Is that option/feature something that everyone will want to pay for or are we just pricing ourselves out of the market.

So the more input the better.

[Dwyerguy]

AND it will be made in the USA!

[fcs]

Just to be clear what is SH/SC?

Super Heat =SH
Sub Cool = SC

[fcs]

Changeable vane yes. - Now lets talk sizes - large what size and why? When you say mini are you talking about one like those weather mini vanes? OR what is the ideal mini size and why?

the size TESTO use for their Mini

[Dwyerguy]

Where do you use a mini vs. larger vane?

[fcs]

Mini vane is small enough you can stick it i a hole in duct work To me at lest its a real selling point.

A lagre you are the Grill (register)

[beachtech]

Just to be clear what is SH/SC?

super heat and sub cooling :)

to make those measurements the technician would need the pressures and tempuratures of both the high and low side of the system as well as the tempuratures of the refrigerant line the pressures are taken from :)

tempurature above saturation is SH

tempurature below saturation is SC :)

[beachtech]

Where do you use a mini vs. larger vane?

you are in charge of making this new hand held unit???

alot of questions...

maybe you could take some class' on HVAC-R at a local community college :confused: :)

[Dwyerguy]

you are in charge of making this new hand held unit???

alot of questions...

maybe you could take some class' on HVAC-R at a local community college :confused: :)

Let's just say I play a role.

No time in the schedule to take the class, but I've been thinking of sitting down with an instructor or two and asking the same questions. Anyone in NC that you could recommend?

[fcs]

I'd recommend if your on the R&D team to develop this (these) tools one of the best thing you can do is what your doing, asking the people in field.

[Dwyerguy]

I'd recommend if your on the R&D team to develop this (these) tools one of the best thing you can do is what your doing, asking the people in field.

Exactly. You really want to get the input from the guy in the trenches.

[beachtech]

Let's just say I play a role.

No time in the schedule to take the class, but I've been thinking of sitting down with an instructor or two and asking the same questions. Anyone in NC that you could recommend?

if you are in NC i would suggest going to a local RSES meeting in or near you area and ask technicians.

my e-mail is in my profile :)