Thermal Imager

[ryand]

I am trying to find out whats the ROI from a thermal imager, which ones are better, and why...

thank you in advance

[neophytes serendipity]

This one has a 60hz refresh rate:

http://www.imaging1.com/razir.html

Comparable price to the others, maybe one of the best deals in the $5k price range. Supposedly better suited to lower temp applications than some of the FLIR branded models. Could not find refresh rate specs for FLIR branded product on their website.

No answer on the ROI question.

Seems to be a tool with great potential, big nut to crack to find out... I suppose leasing/renting is an option to "buy and try".

I want one. Could be invaluable for things like flashing leaks.

[WhoIsThat?]

Check that it offers adjustable emissivity.

[acguytx]

wow 5k that is a lot if you arent using it that much but they are widely used for home insectors and code inspectors to find where builders left out insulation etc..

Im not sure how much an hvac tech or owner could use enough for those costs.I have read a story of someone with a brand new home with all the bells and whistels of energy efficiency had numerous issues with the buildeer and hvac company over the first year in the new home over the first year.

they claimed their bills are twice as much as they should be,system was running all the time winter and summer,and they still felt uncomfortable.I thin the company was out 5 times in that year and couldnt find the issue ,so a lot of free warranty call backs and bad reputatiuon brewing..

the last time he was there he brought a imager with him and someone who used it alot and found there was missing insualtion in a lot of ceilings and also found that both returns were completely finished and attic air was being pulled staright into the return.these returns were in tight spots and hard to get to and see behind and without the imager they would have never found the issues.

so the builder had to come back out and fix these issues and the customer finally was satisfied.that might be worth 5k in the long run to a custom builder IMO..

[WhoIsThat?]

they claimed their bills are twice as much as they should be
So maybe 5 years of high gas bills vs. low gas bills would have paid for the imager.

If you avoid saying "thermal imaging" and are only looking for large differences in temp, and you don't mind waiting for film to be developed, try
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared_photography

You might get by with ~$100.

[acguytx]

The HO didnt buy the imager ,the owner of the Hvac contracting company had a friend with one and brought that guy to the customers home to see if he could find unseen issues and in this case the imager worked like a charm..

5k no way for me at this time unless i run into a situation like that and in that case im charging the buklder back for his mistakes and my costs because of it..

[WhoIsThat?]

The HO didnt buy the imager ,the owner of the Hvac contracting company had a friend with one and brought that guy to the customers home to see if he could find unseen issues and in this case the imager worked like a charm..

5k no way for me at this time unless i run into a situation like that and in that case im charging the buklder back for his mistakes and my costs because of it..
Yeah, I'm saying in hindsight it might have even been worth it for the HO to buy the imager. He can resell it.
An HVAC company should definitely spend some bucks to save callbacks and customer discomfort. Also, you might be able to bid on jobs you wouldn't ordinarily think about doing.

These expensive imagers seem to have a lot of bells and whistles, though. Aren't relative temps all you need?

[Kevin O'Neill]

We paid $7K for ours just over a year ago, we could get it for about $5K now. We use it when we do blower door tests ad looking for air leaks in ducts. It is not something that will pay for itself quickly, bet it can get you out of tough situations on bad jobs. Not the first diagnostic tool to buy. I would recommend a flow hood, blower door, hot wire anemometer first. We have all those things and more. Of course, in this economy, we probably will not buy any high end tools this year.

[fcs]

I've alway been curious has anyone used the to watch the refrigerant cycle.

[jpsmith1cm]

I've been thinking about the application of one for examining electrical control panels for hot spots.

[Kevin O'Neill]

I've alway been curious has anyone used the to watch the refrigerant cycle.

Some.

They are not very sensitive to reading shiny metal. Although ours has an adjustable emissivity setting, 0.1 to 1.0, it is still hard to get accurate temperatures on shiny metal. At the same time, looking at coils will show you if there are grossly underfed circuits in a coil, as long as you can "see" the whole coil.

They also do not read shiny duct insulation well.


We found it would do things that we had not imagined, and would not do some things that we thought it would. :D

[Kevin O'Neill]

I've been thinking about the application of one for examining electrical control panels for hot spots.

They work very well for that.

[zw17]

I've alway been curious has anyone used the to watch the refrigerant cycle.

I am going to bring this thread back from the dead... For good reason.

I got my hands on a customers (factory) thermal imager the other day, Fluke Ti10, and it was downright amazing.

Here is some of what you can see...

Refrigeration cycle in bits (the camera cannot see the whole system at once)
Cold and hot coils and if they are starved
Hot contactors or loose wires
Hot motors
Bad blower bearings
Slipping belts and bad shivs
The water level in a 10,000 gallon water tank for condenser water
Worn pump coupling

And that is just the tip of the iceberg.



They are a invaluable tool that our company may be investing in very soon.
With the proper training you can pull some major work with these things.

Imagine you are the customer and I come to you with this picture. How long until you sign the work order for me to replace it? A picture is worth a thousand words...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/ZW17/thermal.jpg

This was a contactor on a Trane RTWA 125 ton chiller that was burning up. The center leg was 172*F. The picture was taken with my iphone as the thermal camera was my customers. It took less than an hour to have the quote signed, sealed, and delivered.

:cheers:

[walterc]

Met some one with an i5. I got to play with it and found a hot connection on a cap one wouldn't notice. Also found a sub-panel breaker running hot- had a loose wire. There was a wet spot behind a water heater in the wall. Heat around windows. For just basic testing- it seems fine.
I'm getting interested more and more.

[cool-blew]

I have a Fluke Ti32 for sale. Upgrading asap.

[hearthman]

Take the certification course BEFORE you buy. This way, you'll buy the correct camera for what you intend on doing and you'll know what specs and capabilities are required for your intentions.

Take a long hard look at the Fluke Fusion technology. Amazing tool since it records the image both as a color digital image and IR. With their software, you can view it on a laptop (or even on the camera on some units) scaling it back and forth btw IR and visible color.

You can take before and after images to document the effectiveness of whatever work you do: duct sealing, replacing hot components, insulation, etc.

To image shiney surfaces, you can spray paint with flat black paint or use black tape.

Some uses:
hot electrical panels. Circuits need to be drawing amperage to capture bad connections.
bad contactors, motors, switches, etc.
waterlogged expansion tanks
dry radiators
duct leakage with and without duct blaster
house thermal envelope diagnostics w/ blower door
thin spots in vent connector pipe
leaks in combustion venting
abnormalities in combustion chamber air flows and impending flame rolllout
spillage at draft hoods
water infiltraition in roofs and buildings
bad knees in race horses
gas leaks in mains
leaks in radiant floor tubing and cold spots

Price is steadily coming down but make sure you get the right camera for the job then use it---a LOT.

HTH,

[gevans]

I work for a big industrial plant. We have a Vibration Analyses team. They purchased one of these cameras a few years back for almost $20k. Just got another 2 months ago for "only" $8k. I don't know the brands or models, but top of the line with all the bells and whistles.
They let me borrow one for an energy audit on my home. It shows missing insulation in walls, leaking weatherstripping, missing insulation in ceilings, hot wires/connections in electrical panels, etc.
A truly great, but truly expensive tool. If you do lots of energy audits, a must have tool.

[walterc]

I'm not going to get into audits and all that. Too many bells and whistles aren't needed.

[myssjeep]

I've been looking for one more for my own enjoyment, just can't justify it yet. The wow focator from homeowners is a plus, not many people have them in these parts, I guess for good reason though.

[neophytes serendipity]

I have a Fluke Ti32 for sale. Upgrading asap.

PM sent

[Keith_O]

I have a Flir B60. I think it was around $6K when I bought it a year ago. I do whole house energy and comfort retrofits though. Insulation, Air Sealing, HVAC. It is more for the customer than me. I need the customer to see their attic performing poorly for them to understand why I want to do what I propose.
It is pretty crazy to look at ducts with it. Burry 'em.

Keith

[cool-blew]

Cool Keith! Looks like Walter will be falling behind the 8ball in this industry.

[maintenanceguy]

We've got one and use it more than we thought we would. It' used by the whole maintenance dept, not just HVAC. We have used it to find leaks in walls and roofs, to find pipes under a concrete slab, for electrical inspections, even used it to figure out why our burgler alarm kept going off at night (IR motion sensor was seeing a line voltage T-stat on the wall with a loose connection getting hot when it called for heat)

Ours is one of the cheaper (about $2K) flir models. The emissivity is adjustable which is nice. The only complaint I have is that the temp range starts at 32º. It will read much much lower but you're outside of the "official" temp range so I don't know if you can trust the numbers. It just seems like a tool we're always finding some new creative way to use it.

[walterc]

Cool Keith! Looks like Walter will be falling behind the 8ball in this industry.

Hey- that hurts. I think the flir i7 will do just fine. I'm in an area where I'm one of the very few that have a comb analyzer, use a micron gauge, do load calc's on system replacements, and use nitro. :toetap:
Even with these basic tools, I'm miles ahead of the locals- and I actually use them and know how :D

I guarantee I will be the only one with thermal imaging and I'm taking a class next week.

[cool-blew]

Hey- that hurts. I think the flir i7 will do just fine. I'm in an area where I'm one of the very few that have a comb analyzer, use a micron gauge, do load calc's on system replacements, and use nitro. :toetap:
Even with these basic tools, I'm miles ahead of the locals- and I actually use them and know how :D

I guarantee I will be the only one with thermal imaging and I'm taking a class next week.

:cheers:

That's cool!

I don't know if the whole blower door and duct blasting will be any big demand here. I kinda doubt it. But I have sold a lot of insulation, and added a nice service to our customers. When we first started doing duct renovations, we didn't pay much attention to the HO's insulation after we had crawled through their attics and messing it all up and leaving it there. Now we fix that, and offer to fix the whole house, garage, walls or what ever they need. It's been good and profitable!

[walterc]

I was going to get into blower door testing, but after asking around for some time, found out hardly anyone is interested, making it impossible to have it pay for itself in short order.
The elect co-op here will do door testing, however like other things, I question their attention to detail. Their energy audits are laughable when a customer describes to me what they do.

[zw17]

Well, after talking with the office over the last two weeks we have a demo with the Fluke salesman tomorrow at 9am.

They are seriously thinking of offering a thermal audit to customers for things like PM's and such.

Should be very interesting.

[walterc]

Well, after talking with the office over the last two weeks we have a demo with the Fluke salesman tomorrow at 9am.

They are seriously thinking of offering a thermal audit to customers for things like PM's and such.

Should be very interesting.

I think this is a great idea, however- Will the tech be doing it and will he have time when others are waiting to have their systems up and running? What liability is involved in as much as telling a customer you detect moisture in a wall, and when the plumber cuts open a section of wall to find out your reading was just infiltration leaks. What training will you need to prevent this? Will you need to be insured for this if it happens?
Sounds paranoiac, but I think these are good questions for you to ask tomorrow.

And let us know what you find out.

[zw17]

I think this is a great idea, however- Will the tech be doing it and will he have time when others are waiting to have their systems up and running? What liability is involved in as much as telling a customer you detect moisture in a wall, and when the plumber cuts open a section of wall to find out your reading was just infiltration leaks. What training will you need to prevent this? Will you need to be insured for this if it happens?
Sounds paranoiac, but I think these are good questions for you to ask tomorrow.

And let us know what you find out.

Walt,

We will be offering a thermal audit service for the mechanical and electrical side of things only. In addition to your regular PM's we can keep a thermographic history of your equipment for comparison or diagnostic help in the future.

Things we are looking to cover...

Bearings
Shivs
Motors
Electrical panels and breakers
Motor starters and contactors
Boilers
Steam systems
etc...


We are not qualified and do not offer a service for such things as insulation or leak sealing.

It will obviously be used as a diagnostic tool as well.

No one in our area has really taken the reigns with this technology in the mechanical field, much due to cost, but we plan on taking this to the next level with offering service to our customers.

(Man I sound like a salesman) :grin2:

As for training, we are going to be working with the Fluke reps and http://www.thesnellgroup.com/ to help us out.

[cool-blew]

I was going to get into blower door testing, but after asking around for some time, found out hardly anyone is interested, making it impossible to have it pay for itself in short order.
The elect co-op here will do door testing, however like other things, I question their attention to detail. Their energy audits are laughable when a customer describes to me what they do.

Haha, I bet.

I remember at NCI's class they talked a bit about creating a false situation and 'finding' problems. Well I'm sure I could get 100PSI in my tires, maybe if I go down the hot road for several hundred miles, I could probably find a fault with the tires too.

The camera on a hot or cold day, lets me see all kinds of problems, without having to force more air in or out.

[Keith_O]

With the heater or A/C on I usually turn on some exhaust fans, wait about 10 minutes and take a look at the attic, walls and ducts. I will use the blower door on low if there aren't any exhaust fans in the house. I use the same test after I air seal and install new insulation and ducts.
The reason for a better camera in my business is for the delta T measurements that they have. The less expensive cameras require a larger delta T and we don't get too much of that here in California... Especially in the spring and fall.

Keith

[PremiumServices]

I have a TI25 and that is a great tool. I use it to find electrical problems, motors getting too hot, clogged capilary tubes, bad txv valves and reversing valves. Needless to say it makes life easier when checking for duct problems.

I had a customer complaining that the ac was not working right. The temp. would not get below 74ºF so I checked the system and found out the ac was runnig as it should so I pointed the camera to the ceiling and was able to see that it had no insulation in there. You can always check this by getting to the attic but that was an addition and had no attic access on that side of the house so the imager really saved me on that.

[zw17]

I got the camera on my truck on Friday morning. Had a tech with a plugged filter drier on a data center cooling unit, went out with the camera in the hopes of seeing it.

Filter drier had a 9psi drop across it, R-22, confirmed with a cooper digital.

Tried to get the temp drop on camera and was unable to see such a small temp change.

Learned on Sat. that you can adjust the range so I could see a lesser spectrum of heat. Didn't get a chance to test that yet.

[walterc]

Ran across the realitor selling my moms old house and she had a i5 she would sell for $500 bucks, since it didn't qualify for her business to do audits or whatever. Must be 120 pixels- so she bought another one.
New in plastic case. I grabbed it. It pays to talk about these things to people- you never know who has one.
It isn't the one I wanted, but I'm surprised how well it does. I was able to show a customer why a #12 wire should not be used to power a 4 ton condenser. They can see the heat in the wires and that convinces them quickly.
You can actually see the cold air drifting and moving under a leaky door and window! Under some conditions, you can see the wall and ceiling studs/joists.

I saw how ugly I am;
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v89/daddo/IR_0002.jpg

Attic- hot roof;
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v89/daddo/flir-bahr004.jpg

[enb54]

Am still researching these cameras, sort of narrowing down between Fluke TiR32 and FLIR T300, anyone here ever use the FLIR T300?

[neophytes serendipity]

Am still researching these cameras, sort of narrowing down between Fluke TiR32 and FLIR T300, anyone here ever use the FLIR T300?

Different form factor on the FLIR T300.

The Flir has more choices of add on lenses.

A more direct competitor to the Fluke model you mention is the Flir E60.

[jeremyhall.tech.sc]

i bought one a while back . not sure about the ROI, as im still "playing" with it.

[enb54]

Different form factor on the FLIR T300.

The Flir has more choices of add on lenses.

A more direct competitor to the Fluke model you mention is the Flir E60.

Thanks, was aware of the form factor difference, if anyone wants to, Google "FLIR T300 vs. Fluke Ti32 – Sub $9000 Camera Battle" and read over the article from Optimum Energy Products web site. Still thinking and going to talk to a few others before dropping any cash, but just love what these cameras are capable of, the kind of tool that can put you out in front of the competition. Of course, you do have to be good at using it, so will definitely be taking the training...

Thanks for your input...

[enb54]

Well, I've signed up for the Snell Level I course in Calgary Feb 13 to 17, decided that even with all the material available for research, still can't make up my mind on what or if to purchase, so perhaps a real world course is in order. Besides, it'll be fun...

[neophytes serendipity]

I don't think you would go wrong with either a Fluke TI32 or a Flir E60.

The TI32 will be more useful than the TIR 32 because of the wider range. You can set the range on the TI to match the TIR.

The Flir E60 has some wireless features that the Fluke does not (yet) offer. You can also do IR video as long as you buy the upgraded software package. Fluke does not (yet) offer this.

Supposedly, Fluke accessory lenses do not require additional calibration.

Flir lenses do, and there is a calibration upcharge if you do not buy the camera + lens(es) at the same time (or, within a limited period of time)... so choose wisely. If you buy the camera + accessory lens together, there isn't really a price difference between the two brands.

The Flir lenses fit over the original one that comes with the camera. I do not know if the Fluke system is the same.

As far as image quality, pallettes and processing between the two brands... only way to find out is to work both side by side. I did not have the opportunity to play with a Fluke.

Report software is also different, so one may fit your needs better than the other.

[enb54]

neophytes...Yes, I am leaning towards the Fluke Ti32, as previous posts stated, "get the highest resolution you can afford" and software is also a big issue with me, wished for direct video connection like the RAZ-IR Pro, but don't know RAZ-IR, know FLIR slightly and do know Fluke instruments well. I am hoping the Snell course will push me in the correct direction (finally)...

Will keep you all posted...

[neophytes serendipity]

If you want video capability, then you should look at Flir.

[davemyers]

i have bought a fluke tis last summer for 2500 and im still trying to used it so far it does a pretty good job. i would like to say i bought this for water leaks and power problems but i think i just got this becouse i dont have one lol

[enb54]

Still looking for a thermal imager, but have now narrowed it down to Fluke Ti32, FLIR E60 or Testo 882. The Snell course really helped a lot, there are a lot of things to consider when buying one of these devices, especially the reporting software.

[neophytes serendipity]

Still looking for a thermal imager, but have now narrowed it down to Fluke Ti32, FLIR E60 or Testo 882. The Snell course really helped a lot, there are a lot of things to consider when buying one of these devices, especially the reporting software.


Yes, the reporting software is a big deal if you want to generate reports.

The only way to learn about this is to mess with the version provided by each manufacturer.

I can say this: Stock, out of the box from either, the Fluke software blows FLIR out of the water.

I have obtained an evaluation copy of the FLIR professional reporting software, and it sure seems to have features that are not available from Fluke. This FLIR software requires Word 2003 or newer, so that forced a software upgrade on my part.

Unfortunately, they want an additional $250 for this. One would think that mid four figures for a camera is enough...

I have not checked into whether or not Fluke offers an additional "Pro" version.

It is important to note that any version requires some seat time and it is doubtful that all of the capabilities can be utilized in a few minutes or hours of demo time.

Fluke and FLIR appear to process their IR images differently, particularly while in picture-in-picture mode.

The manual calibration mode seems easier to navigate in FLIR than Fluke.

It would be difficult for someone unfamiliar with these instuments to pick up either brand and make an informed decision on the spot, but finding a place to check out both offerings fairly may be a problem.

I own a FLIR E60 and recently attended a class where Fluke cameras and software was provided for the course. I will have to spend an additional $250 for software that at least equals what Fluke provides with their IR cameras. The video capabilities I have in my camera will not work without the $250 FLIR software package (however, I knew this going in).

With respect to the class, the providers contacted both Fluke and FLIR for demo cameras. Fluke said yes, FLIR said no.

If this class was available before I bought mine, I would have made a different decision. This class is not on the same level as a Snell course and the cost was quite reasonable.

Take note, FLIR.

[enb54]

The only way to learn about this is to mess with the version provided by each manufacturer.

Take note, FLIR.

I decided to wait before purchasing the 5 to 10K and bought a FLIR i7 on a package deal, and yes, the FLUKE software is more sophisticated than the basic FLIR, but it depends what you are doing with it. I used the i7 at a worksite and around my house plus am going to try it out on some relatives and friends just to practice writing reports. The new FLUKE Ti125 is also looking pretty good, unless you need those wide angle & telephoto lenses (N/A) or the higher resolution.

My life may be changing quickly so am re-evaluating my requirements, but I can see that this is a tool that is far more useful than I first thought.

I want to see what FLIR's response to the latest FLUKE stuff is...

PS... Arc fault breakers are instantly recognized in the AC distribution panel...

[neophytes serendipity]

I want to see what FLIR's response to the latest FLUKE stuff is...


I have the impression that, for the most part, the comparable cameras from each manufacturer are pretty evenly matched.

The new Flukes have a laser pointer, which is nice.

I do think that Fluke has an edge with in-camera picture in picture processing. Of course, maybe I just don't have enough time in messing with mine.

But, the FLIR pro image software allows me to rotate images and the Fluke software (the version I used) apparently does not. I will admit to not being able to find that feature- maybe it is buried.

There are a whole crapload of pallettes in the FLIR pro software, but I have not yet spent the time to evaluate these.

Much like Canon VS Nikon, there is no clear winner, but there are differences. Some of the differences may be subtle and hard to figure out, but still make a big difference in the user experience.

As the cost comes down, it will be easier to justify bringing one of these tools around more often.

[neophytes serendipity]

An update for my attempts to use the touted *wireless* features of some FLIR cameras, and a caution to others:

(1) The bluetooth portion, so far, only functions with other Extech instruments/meters. It will NOT pair to your phone.

(2) WiFi direct connection from phone to your FLIR camera will NOT work on Android devices if your carrier requires an additional data plan to enable the wireless hotspot feature. Test: If you enable "wireless hotspot" on your phone and attempt to connect a laptop, and then get redirected to a web page telling you that you need a data plan, your FLIR camera will NOT work directly from the phone.

(3) The FLIR mobile app WILL work on Android devices if you can connect the IR camera and phone to an existing separate WiFi network (secured or not).

(4) There is feedback from some Android users that the app works, but is it because they are paying for a tethering/hotspot plan?

(4) Supposedly, their mobile app works using iOS (Apple) mobile devices, but I have not tested it yet. I do not have an iOS device. I do not know if a wireless hotspot can be created on an iOS device without an additional data plan, or if the communication between the two devices is allowed because the internet is not used.

I have a rooted phone that allows use of the wireless hotspot feature, but the device is listed as "incompatible"... and I have no way to port the FLIR app from one device to the other because I can't send it to an SD card.

[cool-blew]

I like my Ti32. Might even sell it. It doesn't get used enough. But it is the best stud find ever.