They used my 58MVC for construction heating

[NBeener]

My new home is under construction, with a Carrier Infinity 58MVC 96AFUE furnace.

$$$$ ... as y'all know.

The builder's folks started using the Infinity for construction heating as soon as they started working inside (ie, prior to drywall, flooring, trim work, cabinets, etc., etc.).

They did NOT draw fresh air from the outside (as 'required' in the installation manual). They simply used the 'normal' register on the main level of a single-story house (furnace is in the basement).

The first people to light it up "hot-wired" it, by sticking stripped ends of a black and a white wire into the female side of an extension cord, and plugging the extension cord into a construction outlet, at the street. They DID have a simple dial thermostat, in use.

For the first week or more, my Skuttle inline air cleaner WAS inline. Somebody then decided that was a bad idea, and took the Skuttle offline, leaving the 58MVC to handle all the work.

I brought this to the builder's attention, saying that I think they horribly abused a very expensive unit.

They've now offered to:

* thoroughly clean the furnace and the ducts
* pay for the extended (10yr) parts & labor warranty
* "replace the unit if it fails (and I still own the house), after the expiration of the 10yr warranty."

It seems they know they screwed up.

A replacement, in the event of a "failure," doesn't make me sleep better at night. This may have caused lots of potential problems that fall short of a "failure."

I'm really not interested in dealing with those issues, either.

In a quick call to Carrier Customer Relations, their initial impression was that my warranty is now void (neglected to give them the serial number of the unit, though ).

I believe the builder should replace the unit, prior to delivering the house (mid-to-late February).

I'm trying to avoid getting the HVAC contractor in the middle of this, but -- from my few conversations with him -- he sounds like he's solidly in MY court, on this one....

Any opinions??

I'd be grateful.....

[Eric Carlson]

I am a service manager at a large carrier dealer in the state of WA. Every home builder here makes us fire off the furnace for temp heat. I hate that they make us do it, but if we didn't we would not have any builders to do work for. Even though Carrier will say the warr is void I have never had it be a problem with any repairs we have made on any equipment. As long as they clean the furnace it will be o.k. I always ask the builder to only run the furnace at night when all of the trades have left. And I also have them change filters every other day.

[DanW13]

Around here all trades that need to have heat provide there own until such a time that the house is near completion where dust or debris will not have an effect on the newly installed equipment. Most all builders will supply a temp furnace for the construction crew once the home is schelled in where the contractors like flooring and others need to have the material there working with to room temps and will never see the finale furnace installed until just weeks before the home is handed over to the home owner.

[zzonko]

The HVAC equipment is not to be used for construction purposes and it is usually spelled out in the warranty. Temp heat can be provided by other means. Builders have no right to run equipment, and HVAC contractors should not give in to them, but some do and some dont. You are in a quandry but it seems that they have made you an offer that you shouldnt refuse...get it in writing and insist at least on a new evaporater coil and a good cleaning of the air handler and ducts.

[Eric Carlson]

Where is around here. I would like to open a company there. Like I said I hate that the builders use the equip for temp heat.

[SJProwler]

After being the victim of the same (New furnace used for construction) I would demand a new unit installed at the cost of the builder. I was the 2nd owner of my house so I couldn't do that, BUT it's been an ongoing issue with primary and secondary heat exchanger failures, and other issues that were all related to the furnace running during construction. The heating contractor came out and cleaned the unit after construction was completed since he was a friend of the original owner but it only delayed failure.

If they even think of balking, I would have your attorney take over. This is a major investment and now your warranty is void. Even with a cleaning the secondary heat exchanger has been contaminated to the point that you will never get it clean enough to provide the full efficiency you paid for. If it was me and the builder refused, that would be a deal breaker. He could find a different sucker to buy the house now.

If it was me the replacement would not be installed until you're ready to move in. The builder gets the consolation prize though, he has a brand new high dollar, high efficiency construction heater for his next project, provided he can keep it working with all the contaminants it's sucked in to the unit.

[jrbenny]

Sounds like a fair and reasonable offer.

[coolwhip]

Unfortunatly, a good cleaning will not help the motor windings, and circuit board. Dry wall dust acts as an insulator and will shorten the life of these items. Might even screw up the secondary HX.

[BaldLoonie]

Yea, I think you'd be better off with the thorough cleaning and free 10 year warranty than a new furnace! Sure it won't be spotless but if it isn't completely trashed with dust, I will be decent enough and having the warranty is good protection regardless. You DON'T want to know what Carrier gets for some of their high end parts after the 5 year parts warranty runs out and years 2-5 you pay labor anyway.

[tedkidd]

After being the victim of the same (New furnace used for construction) I would demand a new unit installed at the cost of the builder. I was the 2nd owner of my house so I couldn't do that, BUT it's been an ongoing issue with primary and secondary heat exchanger failures, and other issues that were all related to the furnace running during construction.


There are a tremendous number of reasons for heat exchanger failure, you really can't attribute it to contamination during construction.

I've been told the older high efficiency furnaces overheated - often because of undersized duct work. Tired of warrantying HE's that weren't faulty, manufacturers are putting lower hi limits on these things.


Seems like the builder is offering a LOT of guarantees above and beyond, including basically a lifetime warranty. How long you gonna stay? I'd accept and get it iron clad. Get it cleaned now, lock it on low fire, have them keep a filter in place, get it cleaned at the end.

[heaterman]

For shame, for shame, for shame! The final heating plant is not to be used for temp construction heat, everybody knows that! Read the darn installation manual for God's sake. We keep a couple beat up 90% multipos units for just that purpose. We have conversion kits for LP and they are pre wired including job stats. We suspend them in the basement, if so designed (slabs are a little different) and they can even finish the concrete in January if needed. Take the offer of a good cleaning and extended warranty.

[cmajerus]

Sounds like a fair deal, but our company has 6 furnaces that we use as temps, the builders pay for the use, and the permanent equip is installed right before carpet.

[NBeener]

Thanks for many excellent responses so far.

My mind is NOT made up, though I do confess that I'm leaning toward asking for a new furnace.

For those who've advocated taking the cleaning/extended warranty offer, may I ask you this:

I've often said that I'd "rather have a good product than a good warranty." Doesn't this offer put me squarely into the opposite category?

Maybe another way to put it is this: a few of you suggested that the builder's offer was 'reasonable.'

Is there really any reason for me to BE 'reasonable,' in this case?

If it were your house, wouldn't you really rather have NO risk associated with this kind of abuse of equipment -- particularly since everybody seems to agree that this sort of construction use IS a known no-no, even if lots of people do it?

Incidentally, they only changed the filters (Skuttle and furnace) once, and only after I initially brought the whole situation to the HVAC contractor's attention.


Yea, I think you'd be better off with the thorough cleaning and free 10 year warranty than a new furnace!

I guess I don't quite understand the reasoning, here.


Sure it won't be spotless but if it isn't completely trashed with dust, I will be decent enough

With all due respect -- Is that the standard you would use ... or that I should use: 'decent enough?'

The way Carrier explains it, in their literature, failure to use clean outside air for combustion risks "the corrosive effects of adhesives, sealers and other construction materials. It also prevents the entrainment of drywall dust into combustion air, which can cause fouling and plugging of furnace components."

It doesn't sound as though a good vacuuming eliminates that risk.

Lastly, to "tedkidd:" while "SJProwler's" issues may or may not have been the direct result of the builder's actions ... his/her post speaks to yet another risk of accepting the abused unit: you'll just never know what harm their actions did or did not cause. It's a huge unknown.

I'd be grateful for any more thoughts....

[tedkidd]

Missed the bit about the combustion intake. Not sure HOW you address that. Zoning or SAM? Guess if you spank the builder he'll be less likely to do it to another consumer.

Prowler didn't tell unit age. But he could get ductwork SCOREd to insure it wasn't a duct issue.

Living with "I wonder if" is a recipe for ulcers. Look forward, not back.

[NBeener]

Guess if you spank the builder he'll be less likely to do it to another consumer. AND
Living with "I wonder if" is a recipe for ulcers. Look forward, not back.

Sage advice, tedkidd. Thanks.

Something very practical about you Upstate NY'ers ... says the man who's looking across the table at his wife ... who's from Syracuse ;)

[DanW13]

IMO I would take a new furnace over the cleaning and 10 yr warranty, even though they may clean it the best they can doesn't mean it's not going to give you problems as chances are you may or may not have problems with a new furnace but do not need to have other cause's to add to those potential problems should they ever occur. You as the homeowner has ever right to not accept the furnace after drywall dust and other debris has been sucked thru the equipment, and I would simply tell the builder that he will not get his final draw until a new furnace is in place, and I would not involve the HVAC contractor although he could have contributed to others using the furnace because they installed the furnace when that should have been the last item to be put into the house.

Eric, Where is around here. I would like to open a company there. Like I said I hate that the builders use the equip for temp heat. Around here is Wisconsin.

[captube]

Take the new furnace and buy the warranty yourself.

Best deal i have heard from a builder in this situation.

[praha99]

I think you`re making out with a cleaning and a warranty.
haven`t seen a heat exchanger killed by dust yet

[fisher01]

Well we all know construction and drywall dust will get everywhere. There's no way a cleaning will remove all of it. Just think every crevice, circuit board, motor windings, coils, heat exchanger, duct work, etc... will be filled with it.
They maybe able to clean the surface but its located deep into everything. I would demand a new furnace and all new ductwork.

Would you buy a brand new car which was flood damaged and cleaned for the same $$$ as a normal new car? Absolutely not, then why should you purchase a new HVAC when it was run during construction and cleaned?

[NBeener]

Well we all know construction and drywall dust will get everywhere. There's no way a cleaning will remove all of it. Just think every crevice, circuit board, motor windings, coils, heat exchanger, duct work, etc... will be filled with it.
They maybe able to clean the surface but its located deep into everything. I would demand a new furnace and all new ductwork.

Wow.

:eek:

Interesting.

While I wholeheartedly agree with your position about the furnace, itself -- that it probably can't be cleaned adequately (and that the corrosive aspects of the combustion by-products probably can't be cleaned off, at all) -- is there really that much reason to believe (I genuinely don't know) that the ducts can't be made spotlessly clean??


Would you buy a brand new car which was flood damaged and cleaned for the same $$$ as a normal new car? Absolutely not, then why should you purchase a new HVAC when it was run during construction and cleaned?

That's pretty much the same logic I gave the builder's rep, on this one. I think I said, "...if your new Lexus sedan was off-roaded for a few weeks ... with NO air cleaner, in place...."

Any other thoughts on the ductwork? I AM paying lots of $$ for high-end equipment AND for a "Built Green" (http://www.builtgreen.net/) house (which does allow "Seal off all ducts during construction or clean HVAC ducts and coils before occupancy").

Thank you!

[blk]

You paid for a NEW furnace...have the builder replace it!

[JBM1000]

Do not set the heater until all prep work is done and carpet laid. Then do the final city inspection and collect the remainder of $. Any other method is a guaranteed nightmare period.

[SJProwler]

Missed the bit about the combustion intake. Not sure HOW you address that. Zoning or SAM? Guess if you spank the builder he'll be less likely to do it to another consumer.

Prowler didn't tell unit age. But he could get ductwork SCOREd to insure it wasn't a duct issue.

Living with "I wonder if" is a recipe for ulcers. Look forward, not back.

High limit lockouts occurred randomly during long furnace runs from the time I purchased the house which my contractor was repeatedly in contact with Rheem about. He checked static pressure and it was within the proper range.
Since I have lived here the EAC is cleaned on a monthly basis and has a cheapy filter behind it as a backup which is changed at the same time. The evaporator coil that was installed after I bought the house is as clean as the day it was installed.

3 years ago was when the burners started acting up with the blower running and he found the bad HX's.When the unit was pulled apart to replace them under warranty they pressure washed all of the drywall dust and sawdust out of the secondary HX, it was really bad.
I have not had a single lockout or rollout failure since. I did just have a gas valve and HSI controller fail last week at the same time but we think that had to do with the same power surge that took out my microwave.

As a homeowner I'd make them replace the unit just before I was ready to move in.

[captube]

It's real simple, they are not construction heaters.

I also provide temp heaters, airhandler with strips not connected to final ductwork.

[jid1877]

This is from page# 4 of the Installation Instructions for the 58MVC.


The furnace may be used for construction heat provided that the
furnace installation and operation complies with the first
CAUTION in the LOCATION section of these instructions.
This gas furnace may be used for construction heat provided that:
S The furnace is permanently installed with all electrical
wiring, piping, air filters, venting and ducting installed
according to these installation instructions. A return air
duct is provided, sealed to the furnace casing, and terminated
outside the space containing the furnace. This
prevents a negative pressure condition as created by the
circulating air blower, causing a flame rollout and/or
drawing combustion products into the structure.
S The furnace is controlled by a thermostat. It may not be
“hot wired” to provide heat continuously to the structure
without thermostatic control.
S Clean outside air is provided for combustion. This is to
minimize the corrosive effects of adhesives, sealers and
other construction materials. It also prevents the entrainment
of drywall dust into combustion air, which
can cause fouling and plugging of furnace components.
S The temperature of the return air to the furnace is
maintained between 55_F (13_C) and 80_F (27_C),
with no evening setback or shutdown. The use of the
furnace while the structure is under construction is
deemed to be intermittent operation per our installation
instructions.
S The air temperature rise is within the rated rise range on
the furnace rating plate, and the firing rate has been set
to the nameplate value.
S The filters used to clean the circulating air during the
construction process must be either changed or
thoroughly cleaned prior to occupancy.
S The furnace, ductwork and filters are cleaned as
necessary to remove drywall dust and construction
58MVC
5
debris from all HVAC system components after
construction is completed.
S After construction is complete, verify furnace operating
conditions including ignition, input rate, temperature
rise and venting, according to the manufacturer’s
instructions.
If this furnace is installed with a direct--vent (combustion air and
flue) system, a factory accessory termination kit must be installed.
In a direct--vent system, all air for combustion is taken directly
from the outside atmosphere and all flue products are discharged
to the outside atmosphere. See furnace and factory accessory
termination kit instructions for proper installation.
These furnaces are shipped with the following materials to assist
in proper furnace installation. These materials are shipped in the
main blower compartment.

[captube]

It's my belief that the instruction manuals was changed to reflect it's now ok to use as construction heat because of pressure from the major new home players.

I skip that page :)

[jrbenny]

As a distributor tech rep, I denied one warranty for dry wall dust in a combustion motor.

You should have heard the whining from the sales office.

I decided that I liked my job enough to not do that again.

Unfortunately, homeowners lose in new construction.

The distributor won't fight the HVAC company because they don't want to lose business.

The HVAC company won't fight the builder because they don't want to lose business.

The builder doesn't want to spend money on construction heaters because they either don't know or don't care.

I've change my mind.

OP - fight for a new furnace. Maybe, just maybe, you will force this builder to change the way he does business.

[21degrees]

Jr has is all right. We do lots of new construction and our builders won't pay for temp heaters unless customers demand it. I can't expect my guys to work in -30*c, so the first thing we do is once the walls and windows are in we Install furnace with filters. We do tell the builder that he has to maintain it or warranty can be voided. Some do take good care, but lots don't. I have in the past refused to do this but just lost work because every other heating contractor would just put it in at start and saves builders money. Here you need a seperate permit for construction heaters and that adds a additional cost to job.

[blk]

OP - fight for a new furnace. Maybe, just maybe, you will force this builder to change the way he does business.[/QUOTE]

Good advice, worth a shot:rolleyes:

[Some Dude]

I agree so long as the hvac contractor doesnt have to pay. Give the builder your used one if he thinks theres nothing wrong with it. Problem is so much of this can come back on hvac contractors. Ive set tons of furnaces and never knew what was done with them. Once its connected to the building its between the ho and the builder.
Funny if we monkeyed with anyone elses stuff there would be a fight ,

[gevans]

Sounds like the builder could use a good construction heater. He can have yours... after they install you a new one to take its place.

[NBeener]

All,

I'm exceptionally grateful for, and impressed by, the responses I've received.

I called for a meeting with the builder ... to talk about this issue.

Rather than a meeting, I got his e-mail response today. He's going to ensure that the ductwork is cleaned to "new or better than new condition," and ...

He's replacing the furnace at his expense (before I told him that's what I wanted).

I'm impressed. I think it HAD to go this way, but ... I'm impressed that I didn't have to press for it....

I think he DID buy himself a high-end construction heater, and DO hope it doesn't come off the back of the HVAC guy.

Next questions, though:

1) The builder said:


Keep in mind that there may be several days and perhaps 2 weeks where the new furnace will be operating without you in the home. However it should be past the majority of construction and will leave you with the furnace you purchased.

Any worthwhile reason why I should NOT simply say, "Please use the old one ONLY until I take possession and occupancy?"

I presume he's trying to work around the HVAC contractor's scheduling, but I'm not really sure why HE'D want to use the new one ... at ... all ... before I take possession :confused:

2) [Sorry, but ....] I didn't get the s/n off the original unit. Does anybody think I should figure out a way to be SURE that I actually DO get a new 58MVC ... rather than just a clean-up job??

Thoughts?

Again ... my thanks.

[neophytes serendipity]

Odds are, the builder will pressure the HVAC contractor to eat the job or do it at a substantial discount... at least that is the normal course.

Who knows, maybe that won't happen in your case... and there is no easy way for you to ever find out.

Your furnace may end up in a different new home :)

Save all emails with promises in their entirety, print and digital copies.

It will be almost impossible to clean your unit to look like it was a new one... and give it back.

If the builder is willing to give you a new furnace, there is no harm in asking to hold off on installation until you close on the home- or until drywall/paint is complete. If that is agreed to, then play nice and meet their reasonable scheduling requests.

[propmanage]

Sounds like you have a good builder and he is doing exactly what he should. Construction dust could be considered hazardous to some not all individuals and if someone had a negative reaction this thing could drag out for ever with little or no results. With that said he is doing what a stand up guy should do.