Religious people.....Explain this sentence?

[homersodyssey]

Disprove any accusation I have made about the RCC.


Read any of my responses.

One thing I find interesting is how easy it is to discredit your accusations considering how much time you've invested in conjuring them.

Yet, I am grateful for these discussions as it has got me back into studying my faith and subsequently growing it. The last time this happened is when I became an organist in my church. Hymn selection alone requires a working knowledge of Scripture and history.

[Mr Bill]

I see you trimmed your beard.


I had to Billy Gibbons was going to file a patent infringement suit on me.

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l286/mrbillpro/Billy_Gibbons.jpg

[RoBoTeq]

Yes, the response of transfering those committing such deplorable acts was baffling. One explanation I've heard is that they believed the offender was suffering from stress and a six month sebatical followed by a transfer was the cure. If there is an example of Satan's work, pedophilia is it.

It would be in everyone's best interests if rape of any kind was dealt with by longer prison terms. In many jurisdictions you can do more time for auto theft than rape. There is never any excuse for forcing yourself on another person.

To keep things in perspective, the chances of your child being sexually assaulted are higher in school than church. To assert that the sex scandal proves anything about the RCC would be the same as stating Watergate, or Monica Lewinski proves the Presidency is flawed.
You state "the sex scandel" as if there has only been one instance of sexual impropriety within the RCC. Sexual improprieties have been recognized in the Roman Catholic Church for centuries. The RCC has always covered up these evil deeds and has always covered for those who commit them.


Many priests (roughly 5,000 were accused (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/16/us/nationalspecial2/15cnd-pope.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin)) have been found to have abused young males and young girls, some of them altar boys. For years, the problem was hidden from public view, with priests routinely sent to other parishes without warning the new church—and certainly without informing the authorities. [/qoute]
http://www.usnews.com/articles/opinion/mashek/2008/09/23/abortion-catholic-sex-scandals-the-bishop-of-scranton-and-joe-bidens-communion.html

[quote]Gregory VII may have put the kibosh on clerical marriage, but a lot of priests did not give up their wives, and new priests found themselves entering into the holy state of concubinage. The number of priests with concubines became so numerous that the canon lawyers had to develop a whole section of Canon Law dealing with concubinage in the priesthood (we won’t speak of all the bishops who had mistresses).
http://www.kendallharmon.net/t19/index.php/t19/article/5351/

Then of course there is the homosexual issue;
www.elephantsinthelivingroom.com/Celibacy_Homosexuality_and_the_Sexual_Abuse_Crisis (http://www.elephantsinthelivingroom.com/Celibacy_Homosexuality_and_the_Sexual_Abuse_Crisis )

Oh my; "angry gay priests"!

[RoBoTeq]

oh, so you've never seen a bird fly. I suppose they evolved to be able to fly.

so which is it for you creation or evolution.?
Both; God Created evolution

[RoBoTeq]

Read any of my responses.

One thing I find interesting is how easy it is to discredit your accusations considering how much time you've invested in conjuring them.

Yet, I am grateful for these discussions as it has got me back into studying my faith and subsequently growing it. The last time this happened is when I became an organist in my church. Hymn selection alone requires a working knowledge of Scripture and history.
You have not discredited anything I have posted about atrocities committed by the RCC because everything I have posted is historical fact that cannot be discredited or even intelligently argued against. The RCC did what it did and that is that. As much as you may want history to not be what it is, you cannot change what has happened.

[acmanko]

You have not discredited anything I have posted about atrocities committed by the RCC because everything I have posted is historical fact that cannot be discredited or even intelligently argued against. The RCC did what it did and that is that. As much as you may want history to not be what it is, you cannot change what has happened.that is exactly the point being made about Christ and his endorsement of the RCC. its in the Bible and in Historical texts. except it or not you cannot change what has happende.

[RoBoTeq]

that is exactly the point being made about Christ and his endorsement of the RCC. its in the Bible and in Historical texts. except it or not you cannot change what has happende.
Christ endorsed the RCC? Oh, this I got to hear about:rolleyes:. Please, do tell us how Christ has endorsed the government that persecuted not only Him but all of His followers for centuries.

[Mr Bill]

Christ endorsed the RCC? Oh, this I got to hear about:rolleyes:.

I did hear once that the Pope Did Endorse Gibson's Film on Christ, is this close? :eek:

[homersodyssey]

You have not discredited anything I have posted about atrocities committed by the RCC because everything I have posted is historical fact that cannot be discredited or even intelligently argued against. The RCC did what it did and that is that. As much as you may want history to not be what it is, you cannot change what has happened.

Oh phullllleassse.

You claim historical facts from such dubious sources as www.religioustolerance.org. Remember them? That's the website you cited in your recent "Easter is pagan" accusation. This is a website run by an atheist, agnostic, wiccan, buddist and oh ya, one token Christian. They claim satanism, paganism, new age, and wiccan as new religious movements.

Conversely, I've cited from major encyclopedias.

When you start citing sources that wouldn't end up in any professor's waste basket I'll start taking your constant accusations more seriously.

[jmac00]

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l286/mrbillpro/cartoons_44.gif


HEY!!! don't be mess'n with Sammy:p

[RoBoTeq]

Oh phullllleassse.

You claim historical facts from such dubious sources as www.religioustolerance.org (http://www.religioustolerance.org). Remember them? That's the website you cited in your recent "Easter is pagan" accusation. This is a website run by an atheist, agnostic, wiccan, buddist and oh ya, one token Christian. They claim satanism, paganism, new age, and wiccan as new religious movements.

Conversely, I've cited from major encyclopedias.

When you start citing sources that wouldn't end up in any professor's waste basket I'll start taking your constant accusations more seriously.
You have eyes, yet you refuse to see;

http://www.factmonster.com/spot/easterintro1.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/easter-origins.html

http://www.didyouknow.cd/easter.htm

http://wilstar.com/holidays/easter.htm

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05224d.htm

http://www.holidays.net/easter/story.htm

http://www.catholicexpert.com/easterprayer.htm

http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/holidays/easter.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter

http://www.stjohnte.com/glossary/easter.htm

There! Now you have secular, encyclopedic and even Catholic sites to see that Easter is noted to be named for a Pagan goddess and that all of the traditions of Easter are of Pagan rituals.

I doubt you would believe Jesus Christ Himself that the RCC is not giving you accurate teachings of Him and is certainly not acting strictly on His behalf.

Hell, we could change the world with just the money that could be gathered by selling off RCC real estate.

[homersodyssey]

I can't see? Do you read the source in its entirety or just skim looking for one or two key "paganist" words?

So far (I don't have time to check them all right now) all I've seen is the actual word Easter and choice of springtime celebrations have connections to pagans. All this proves is the early Christians were adept at stealing pagan celebrations. Keep in context paganism was the big dog on the porch and converting them would necessarily require covert action.

After that there is nothing but a celebration of Christ's resurrection. Do you dispute that Christ was crucified, died, buried, and rose again?

"Easter (Greek: Πάσχα, Pascha or Pasxa) is the most important religious feast in the Christian liturgical year.[1] Christians believe that Jesus was resurrected from the dead two days[2] after his crucifixion, and celebrate this resurrection on Easter Day,[3] or Easter Sunday, two days after Good Friday. The year of his death and resurrection is variously estimated between the years 26 and 36 AD (see also Chronology of Jesus)." Wikipedia

"Easter is the principal feast of the ecclesiastical year. Leo I (Sermo xlvii in Exodum) calls it the greatest feast (festum festorum), and says that Christmas is celebrated only in preparation for Easter. It is the centre of the greater part of the ecclesiastical year. The order of Sundays from Septuagesima to the last Sunday after Pentecost, the feast of the Ascension, Pentecost, Corpus Christi, and all other movable feasts, from that of the Prayer of Jesus in the Garden (Tuesday after Septuagesima) to the feast of the Sacred Heart (Friday after the octave of Corpus Christi), depend upon the Easter date. Commemorating the slaying of the true Lamb of God and the Resurrection of Christ, the corner-stone upon which faith is built, it is also the oldest feast of the Christian Church, as old as Christianity, the connecting link between the Old and New Testaments." New Advent


What exactly do you believe the Church is distorting?

[RoBoTeq]

I can't see? Do you read the source in its entirety or just skim looking for one or two key "paganist" words?

So far (I don't have time to check them all right now) all I've seen is the actual word Easter and choice of springtime celebrations have connections to pagans. All this proves is the early Christians were adept at stealing pagan celebrations. Keep in context paganism was the big dog on the porch and converting them would necessarily require covert action.

After that there is nothing but a celebration of Christ's resurrection. Do you dispute that Christ was crucified, died, buried, and rose again?The point was that Easter, including the very name, is of Pagan origins, which every one of those sites admits to.

I do not deny that Christ was crucified, died, buried and rose again. What I do deny is that the alleged celebration of the Resurrection this year is a full month past the time it actually would have occured. Passover was on April 20 in 2008. So why was Easter on March 23? The reason is because the Easter celebration is following the Pagan celebration of the Spring season with it's rebirth of nature and all of the Pagan iconry that goes with it and not the Ressurection of Jesus Christ which occured just after Passover.


"Easter (Greek: Πάσχα, Pascha or Pasxa) is the most important religious feast in the Christian liturgical year.[1] Christians believe that Jesus was resurrected from the dead two days[2] after his crucifixion, and celebrate this resurrection on Easter Day,[3] or Easter Sunday, two days after Good Friday. The year of his death and resurrection is variously estimated between the years 26 and 36 AD (see also Chronology of Jesus)." Wikipedia

"Easter is the principal feast of the ecclesiastical year. Leo I (Sermo xlvii in Exodum) calls it the greatest feast (festum festorum), and says that Christmas is celebrated only in preparation for Easter. It is the centre of the greater part of the ecclesiastical year. The order of Sundays from Septuagesima to the last Sunday after Pentecost, the feast of the Ascension, Pentecost, Corpus Christi, and all other movable feasts, from that of the Prayer of Jesus in the Garden (Tuesday after Septuagesima) to the feast of the Sacred Heart (Friday after the octave of Corpus Christi), depend upon the Easter date. Commemorating the slaying of the true Lamb of God and the Resurrection of Christ, the corner-stone upon which faith is built, it is also the oldest feast of the Christian Church, as old as Christianity, the connecting link between the Old and New Testaments." New Advent


What exactly do you believe the Church is distorting?
The real question is "what is the church (lower case "c", unless you are worshipping the religous organization itself) not distorting?

These definitions you have posted are proof positive that Easter is not the time of Jesus's Resurrection. Sunday is only significant to the acknowledgement of the sun god. Even God's day of Sabbath was changed from sundown on Friday to sundown on Saturday to the Pagan day of worshipping their sun god. Everything in RCC tradition revolves around the pagan sun god, not Jesus Christ. Just because this is accpted does not make it right.

Let's say Jesus made a visit and decided to revisit the last days of His life as a mortal; on what day would He have eaten his last supper? April 20, the day of Passover, or March 23, over a month later?

Would Jesus consider the Sabbath to be sundown to sundown Friday to Saturday or would Jesus consider Sunday, the day of the Pagan sun god, to be God the Father's day of Sabbath?

Do you desire to do as Jesus did or do you desire to be as the Pagans?

[homersodyssey]

So far (I don't have time to check them all right now)

Sorry about being short earlier. I was busy watching Team USA get eliminated from the World Junior Hockey Championship tournament by some former Soviet republic (Slovakia, Siberia, or something like that). I'll spend some time on the lengthy list of sources you've referenced.

The Catholic Experts site supports the first two I looked by acknowledging the origin of the word Easter comes from some obscure pagan god. After that, it's all about Christ:


HISTORY OF EASTER PRAYERS

Easter, the principal festival of the Christian church year, celebrates the Resurrection of Jesus Christ on the third day after his Crucifixion. The origins of Easter date to the beginnings of Christianity, and it is probably the oldest Christian observance after the Sabbath (originally observed on Saturday, later on Sunday). Later, the Sabbath subsequently came to be regarded as the weekly celebration of the Resurrection. Meanwhile, many of the cultural historians find, in the celebration of Easter, a convergence of the three traditions - Pagan, Hebrew and Christian.

According to St. Bede, an English historian of the early 8th century, Easter owes its origin to the old Teutonic mythology. It was derived from the name Eostre, the Anglo-Saxon goddess of spring, to whom the month of April was dedicated. The festival of Eostre was celebrated at the vernal equinox, when the day and night gets an equal share of the day.

The English name "Easter" is much newer. When the early English Christians wanted others to accept Christianity, they decided to use the name Easter for this holiday so that it would match the name of the old spring celebration. This made it more comfortable for other people to accept Christianity

[homersodyssey]

Factmonster looks like an interesting site. Where do you find all these?

Anyway, they support the word Easter coming from that same god. Do I have to check all the rest if I give you this point?

Every site so far has also agreed with: "Christians celebrate Easter to commemorate the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Some aspects of modern Easter celebrations, however, pre-date Christianity." Factmonster

If any connection to a pagan festival or symbol makes the user pagan, then consider:

Saturn is the pagan god of the stars.
There are stars on Old Glory.
Therefore, Americans worship Saturn and are thus pagan.

Lughnassadh is the pagan harvest festival.
Americans celebrate the harvest at Thanksgiving.
Therefore, Americans are pagans.

The "all seeing eye" is a pagan symbol for their god Saturn.
The "all seeing eye" appears on the back of the American dollar bill
Therefore, Americans worship Saturn.

Wait a minute. There's a maple leaf on my country's flag. Druids worship trees. Therefore Canada is pagan. AAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

Well, at least we didn't lose to Slovakia today.

[homersodyssey]

Everything in RCC tradition revolves around the pagan sun god, not Jesus Christ.

You've admitted to not knowing much about Catholicism yet claim to know that everything in it revolves around the pagan sun god. Seems like a contradiction to me.

Take a deep breath and my word on the following...Catholics are not pagans, devil worshipers, magicians, aliens, or robots. Some are Democrats and Liberals but that's another discussion for another thread. Catholics don't worship saturn, jupitor, or even Goofy's dog pluto (whom I've heard isn't even considered a planet anymore.)

So far all you've brought forward is the word Easter was borrowed from some obscure pagan god and the timing of the actual celebration dates. Personally, I've never really cared which Sunday Easter falls on. However, you make some interesting points and I'll look into them when I get a chance. I'm not concerned though as everything you've put forward to this point has a logical explanation.

Oh ya, the eggs and rabbit thing. Factmonster provides some interesting history on these traditions, I'd have to see collaborating evidence to accept it but nothing seems dangerous so far. If over the course of two thousand years certain cultures developed certain quirky traditions then I don't see a problem providing the reason for the season remains foremost.

I guess those objections are similar to your dislike of mistletoe, Christmas trees, and other such traditions. If using symbols to reflect great meaning bothers you and suggests pagan worship, then I assume your wife doesn't have a diamond and you don't ever give her roses.

[RoBoTeq]

Factmonster looks like an interesting site. Where do you find all these?

Anyway, they support the word Easter coming from that same god. Do I have to check all the rest if I give you this point?

Every site so far has also agreed with: "Christians celebrate Easter to commemorate the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Some aspects of modern Easter celebrations, however, pre-date Christianity." Factmonster

If any connection to a pagan festival or symbol makes the user pagan, then consider:

Saturn is the pagan god of the stars.
There are stars on Old Glory.
Therefore, Americans worship Saturn and are thus pagan.

Lughnassadh is the pagan harvest festival.
Americans celebrate the harvest at Thanksgiving.
Therefore, Americans are pagans.

The "all seeing eye" is a pagan symbol for their god Saturn.
The "all seeing eye" appears on the back of the American dollar bill
Therefore, Americans worship Saturn.

Wait a minute. There's a maple leaf on my country's flag. Druids worship trees. Therefore Canada is pagan. AAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

Well, at least we didn't lose to Slovakia today.
I personally have nothing against Paganism. I enjoy many Pagan celebrations and feel that Pagan thoughts toward nature are most times pretty neat. I just don't like having Jesus being used to promote times of year and iconry associated with Paganism. What the hell is wrong with just being more accurate about Jesus's particulars instead of appeasing Pagans?

For crying out loud; only Pagans even celebrated birth at the time that Jesus was mortal. In fact, birthdays have not been a big deal until the past few centuries. Therefore, Christmas has always been for the appeasement of Pagans. Since Easter is no where near recognized at the time of Jesus's Resurrection but is always celebrated at the time of the Pagan Spring rebirth, just what are we celebrating during Easter? I guess you should be glad that crap eating wasn't a Pagan tradition or you'd be eating crap accredited to Jesus somehow.

Just keep following what you want to follow and disregard the Truth. I for one will continue to seek the Truth of Jesus and continue to deny the lies and deceits.

[bootlen]

Robo, I would say at this time that when Jesus first began His ministry on earth, that to fellowship with the likes of tax collectors was considered to be un-Godly.

Ever hear of a guy by the name of Matthew?

Sometimes, a fellow has to do what a fellow has to do. Know what I mean?

[RoBoTeq]

You've admitted to not knowing much about Catholicism yet claim to know that everything in it revolves around the pagan sun god. Seems like a contradiction to me.

Take a deep breath and my word on the following...Catholics are not pagans, devil worshipers, magicians, aliens, or robots. Some are Democrats and Liberals but that's another discussion for another thread. Catholics don't worship saturn, jupitor, or even Goofy's dog pluto (whom I've heard isn't even considered a planet anymore.)

So far all you've brought forward is the word Easter was borrowed from some obscure pagan god and the timing of the actual celebration dates. Personally, I've never really cared which Sunday Easter falls on. However, you make some interesting points and I'll look into them when I get a chance. I'm not concerned though as everything you've put forward to this point has a logical explanation.

Oh ya, the eggs and rabbit thing. Factmonster provides some interesting history on these traditions, I'd have to see collaborating evidence to accept it but nothing seems dangerous so far. If over the course of two thousand years certain cultures developed certain quirky traditions then I don't see a problem providing the reason for the season remains foremost.

I guess those objections are similar to your dislike of mistletoe, Christmas trees, and other such traditions. If using symbols to reflect great meaning bothers you and suggests pagan worship, then I assume your wife doesn't have a diamond and you don't ever give her roses.
It is really getting frustrating having to keep going over the same things with you over and over again. Please pay attention and try to remember what I post;

I don't study the current Catholic rules and regulations but that doesn't mean I don't know about the history and tenents of Catholisism. For crying out loud homer, I'm sure you know what homosexuals, women and cows are without having to be one....don't you?

I have stated over and over and over and over......and over that I don't believe that Catholics are Pagans and that I don't consider the RCC to be a Pagan organization. There is no doubt whatsoever to anyone with half a brain that can read the vast amount of information on the subject that the RCC was born out of Roman Paganism and does have a lot of Paganistic values.

I don't give one hoot what you do or what you believe, well, I do, but if you don't want to accept what I post; THEN DON'T! I don't care....just don't keep acting like what I am posting is not right there in front of you. Deny the Truth if you want to, that is your God given right. Just don't tell me that I am claiming things about the RCC that I have not supported with factual data over and over and.....oh hell, we've been through that as well.

Look; just go rub your beads and say a few hail Mary's and forget I exist....ok?

[RoBoTeq]

Robo, I would say at this time that when Jesus first began His ministry on earth, that to fellowship with the likes of tax collectors was considered to be un-Godly.

Ever hear of a guy by the name of Matthew?

Sometimes, a fellow has to do what a fellow has to do. Know what I mean?
What Jesus did may have been "considered" ungodly, but I thank God that Jesus accepts sinners and just downright scumbags so He doesn't think as badly about me as the mere mortals I have to put up with do;)

[Mr Bill]

It is really getting frustrating having to keep going over the same things with you over and over again..


He's testing your stamina. http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l286/mrbillpro/Alienfighing.gif

[RoBoTeq]

He's testing your stamina. http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l286/mrbillpro/Alienfighing.gif
So did my first wife, and I murdered her........


















.......in my dreams:o

[bootlen]

What Jesus did may have been "considered" ungodly, but I thank God that Jesus accepts sinners and just downright scumbags so He doesn't think as badly about me as the mere mortals I have to put up with do;)

Not my point. My point IS that Jesus comes down to us. He sorta expects us to do the same. No, Jesus did not become a tax collector but He did go where society forbade. RCC's problem is they DID "become the tax collector" in that they compromised. Christ never compromised. I thknk that is the RCC's biggest mistake...celebrating holidays on the wrong date.

I DO, however, believe we should celebrate the DB&R of Christ on Passover weekend. God gave a very specific date and even hour of His death. To me, that means God considers the date/time to be important. And it is a failing of ALL of Christendom, not just the RCC.

And this is exactly why I think all OT Jewish holidays should be celebrated by Christians. So there won't be any rifts in Christ's body.

[RoBoTeq]

Not my point. My point IS that Jesus comes down to us. He sorta expects us to do the same. No, Jesus did not become a tax collector but He did go where society forbade. RCC's problem is they DID "become the tax collector" in that they compromised. Christ never compromised. I thknk that is the RCC's biggest mistake...not celebrating holidays on the wrong date.

I DO, however, believe we should celebrate the DB&R of Christ on Passover weekend. God gave a very specific date and even hour of His death. To me, that means God considers the date/time to be important. And it is a failing of ALL of Christendom, not just the RCC.

And this is exactly why I think all OT Jewish holidays should be celebrated by Christians. So there won't be any rifts in Christ's body.
You're right boots, I did misunderstand what you were stating. Now that I get it, I would have to agree. Had not thought of it from this perspective.

I have been saying for years that I am going to start recognizing the holy days that Jesus recognized. This year I believe I am going to get more serious about it. There should certainly be no problem for me to commemorate the Ressurection of Jesus in the days after celebrating Passover with Lisa's family.

I would not want Easter to go away though. The week after Easter is when I stock up on 50% off pastel colored candy.

[homersodyssey]

I have stated over and over and over and over......and over that I don't believe that Catholics are Pagans and that I don't consider the RCC to be a Pagan organization. There is no doubt whatsoever to anyone with half a brain that can read the vast amount of information on the subject that the RCC was born out of Roman Paganism and does have a lot of Paganistic values.

We may be making progress. Acknowledging the Catholic Church and its members aren't completely pagan, but do "have a lot of Paganistic values" is a step in the right direction. I'll accept this as a small victory and look forward to the time you realize Jesus Christ is the head of the Catholic Church and its two thousand year old existence has been and will continue to be in His service.

Hope you're not upset with me, or is this all about the Slovakia victory?

You can celebrate Easter (or whatever you want to call it) whenever you want and it's cool with me. Heck, you can even celebrate Jewish holidays too if you believe that's not in conflict with Scripture. I'll continue to point out any flawed thinking in any Catholic bigotry posted and pray for you.

This Easter I'll go about my usual traditions of attending Holy Thursday (the washing of the feet), followed by an all-night vigil (Gethsemane). Next day I'll go to Good Friday (Crucifixion). Then on Sunday, I'll attend Mass to celebrate His resurrection. The only Saturns will be the ones in the church parking lot.

[RoBoTeq]

We may be making progress. Acknowledging the Catholic Church and its members aren't completely pagan, but do "have a lot of Paganistic values" is a step in the right direction. I'll accept this as a small victory and look forward to the time you realize Jesus Christ is the head of the Catholic Church and its two thousand year old existence has been and will continue to be in His service.I am not in competition with homer, so please, feel as victorious as you want to.

The RCC is not two thousand years old. It began in with Constantine four hundred years of Roman persecution after Jesus's Resurrection. The church that was from the beginning was the Eastern Orthodox church which was also persecuted by the Romans and then later attacked by the RCC. Once again, this is historical and cannot be denied no matter how powerful the RCC is.


Hope you're not upset with me, or is this all about the Slovakia victory?It must be the Slovs:cool:


You can celebrate Easter (or whatever you want to call it) whenever you want and it's cool with me. Heck, you can even celebrate Jewish holidays too if you believe that's not in conflict with Scripture. I'll continue to point out any flawed thinking in any Catholic bigotry posted and pray for you.I don't need your permission to do as Jesus did. Jesus was a Jew and Jesus recognized the holy days of the Jews. I can't imagine why any Christian would not want to walk in the ways of Jesus. How could what Jesus did be in conflict with scripture?


This Easter I'll go about my usual traditions of attending Holy Thursday (the washing of the feet), followed by an all-night vigil (Gethsemane). Next day I'll go to Good Friday (Crucifixion). Then on Sunday, I'll attend Mass to celebrate His resurrection. The only Saturns will be the ones in the church parking lot.
Sounds like a plan. Saturnalius is the sun god worshipped by Pagans on December 25, not the goddess of furtility worshipped at the beginning of Spring:rolleyes: Good thing you're a good Catholic cause you make a lousy Pagan;)

[homersodyssey]

Good thing you're a good Catholic cause you make a lousy Pagan;)


Cheers to that!

[TB]

When I was young and I did go to a religious building, the Priest,Minister,Father all seemed to talk about one thing.......money.



Me too jmac, except on 'Stewardship Sunday', when the sermon theme was 'more'.

There are churches out there, believe it or not, (many of them the so called 'super churches'), that follow the advice / example / command found clearly in Ex. 25, and 35, where God asks for gifts for the tabernacle from only those willing to give. I've heard, from the pulpit, the pastor say ," don't give, unless God places it on your heart to do so", it blew me away when I heard it, but I did, a few times.

[TB]

Take a deep breath and my word on the following...Catholics are not pagans, devil worshipers,
nope, I won't. I prefer to take the word of the Catholic Catechism on matters of Catholic doctrine, and it ain't what you claim.

Would you care to explain then, the occult phallic symbols used to sprinkle holy water, and the one in st. peter's square, outside the Vatican, used in the worship of the fertility goddess Isis? The OT calls it an Ashera pole, and condemns the practice.

Sorry Robin, I know you used the name Esther recently for the same goddess, but since the symbol the Catholics are so proud of they display it in the middle of the Vatican square, is inscribed as an Egyptian obelisk, I thought I'd stay in context.

[TB]

Jesus never told us to only use Scripture for everything.

Act 17:11 These Jews41 were more noble than those in Thessalonica, for they eagerly received the message, examining the scriptures carefully every day to see if these things were so.

Deu 11:18 Fix these words of mine into your mind and being...

Pro 2:1 My child, if you receive my words,
and store up my commands within you,
Pro 2:2 by making your ear attentive to wisdom,
and by turning your heart to understanding,
Pro 2:3 indeed, if you call out for discernment —
raise your voice for understanding —
Pro 2:4 if you seek it like silver,
and search for it like hidden treasure,
Pro 2:5 then you will understand how to fear the LORD,
and you will discover knowledge about God.
Pro 2:6 For the LORD gives wisdom,
and from his mouth comes knowledge and understanding.


He in fact followed many Jewish traditions. which were all in the scriptures.

Also, does not support the first comment, intended to negate the value of the scriptures.



Add to the fact that not all of His ministry is recorded in the Gospels.



this is an appeal to ignorance. Ignorance of Jesus' actions does not grant us license to guess at what they might have been, and establish doctrine based on that ignorance.

[acmanko]

Pagans used money, lived in nice homes, had sex regularly and worked. I guess some pagan rituals have gone Main Stream. Funny how fundies are the most pagan of all.

[bootlen]

Pagans used money, lived in nice homes, had sex regularly and worked. I guess some pagan rituals have gone Main Stream. Funny how fundies are the most pagan of all.

Ac, with this post of yours, I see you pooping on the dining table and eating out of the toilet.

Newsflash for ya. Just because many things exist in one area does not mean they are to be thrown into a bowl to be mixed together. I know this may be hard for you to understand but it is, nonetheless, truth. Deal with it.

[homersodyssey]

Would you care to explain then, the occult phallic symbols used to sprinkle holy water, and the one in st. peter's square, outside the Vatican, used in the worship of the fertility goddess Isis? The OT calls it an Ashera pole, and condemns the practice.

Good grief. Ok, TB I'll explain it once I find some time today. It will require some research as this is the first I've heard of such things. That kinda squashes your assertion that the Church is practicing pagan rituals as practicing Catholics don't know anything about it.

Can we defer the "Bible-alone" shoot-out for another day. You know it isn't going away, an important debate (one I hope we can have respectfully as Chritians) and I actually have other stuff that needs doing this weekend.

[RoBoTeq]

nope, I won't. I prefer to take the word of the Catholic Catechism on matters of Catholic doctrine, and it ain't what you claim.

Would you care to explain then, the occult phallic symbols used to sprinkle holy water, and the one in st. peter's square, outside the Vatican, used in the worship of the fertility goddess Isis? The OT calls it an Ashera pole, and condemns the practice.

Sorry Robin, I know you used the name Esther recently for the same goddess, but since the symbol the Catholics are so proud of they display it in the middle of the Vatican square, is inscribed as an Egyptian obelisk, I thought I'd stay in context.
From what I understand, there are several waves of Pagan influences on the RCC. The original Pagan iconry would have come from ancient Egypt, Greek and Roman Paganism, all of which influenced the Romans in the time of Constantine. Romans actually borrowed histories of Greek gods because they were much more interesting then the Roman counterpart gods. Symbols of fertility have been part of Pagan iconry forever. Since the Judeo-Christian Bible(s) also revere procreation, I won't say that fertility iconry is something that is bad, just doesn't belong in alleged Christian churches.

The references I made to Easter origins were from the British Isles Pagan influences that came into the RCC later on. Again, I don't consider the RCC evil because of it's Pagan iconry and Pagan holy day dates. I consider that the RCC has been "influenced" by evil by allowing these things to distract us from the teachings of Jesus Christ and being taught to walk in the ways of Jesus Christ rather then walking in the ways of Pagan worshippers.

[homersodyssey]

nope, I won't. I prefer to take the word of the Catholic Catechism on matters of Catholic doctrine, and it ain't what you claim.

Would you care to explain then, the occult phallic symbols used to sprinkle holy water, and the one in st. peter's square, outside the Vatican, used in the worship of the fertility goddess Isis? The OT calls it an Ashera pole, and condemns the practice.

I've looked in the Catechism and can't find anything on "occult phallic symbols", "Isis", or "Ashera pole". Can you provide the numerical reference? It will be a two to four number followed by the passage.

Ex.
120. It was by the apostolic Tradition that the Church discerned which writings are to be included in the list of the sacred books. This complete list is called the canon of Scripture. It includes 46 books for the Old Testament (45 if we count Jeremiah and Lamertations as one) and 27 for the New.

124. The Word of God, which is the power of God for salvation to everyone who has faith, is set forth and displays its power in a most wonderful way in the writings of the New Testament which hand on the ultimate truth of God's Revelation. Their central object is Jesus Christ, God's incarnate Son: his acts, teachings, Passion and glorification, and his Church's beginnings under the Spirit's guidance.

[homersodyssey]

Alrightie, I found some stuff, but not in the Catechism or any other official source. Again, that kinda squashes the whole "RCC distorting the Truth, pagan distractions, etc, accusations. The following is from a chatroom like this so take it with a grain of salt.


One source says it has quarried at Aswan in the reign of Nebkaure Amenemhet II (B.C. 19th Century), and erected at the pylon of the Temple of the Sun in Heliopolis. Another source says that although it's unknown when it was quarried but it was erected at the Julian Forum in Alexandria by the order of Octavianus (the first Roman Emperor Augustus [reigned B.C. 27 - A.D. 14]).

This obelisk, like two others Esquilino Obelisk and Quirinale Obelisk, does not have the usual hieroglyphics, and no one knows where it originally came from or who created it. There are various opinions why it has no hieroglyphics; because the Egyptian Pharaoh suddenly dead, or because the Roman Emperor made it, .....

In A.D. 37 (40?), the then Roman Emperor Caligula transported it to Rome, and erected it in the Caligula Circus (later the Nero Circus (Circus Gai et Neronis), or the Vatican Circus). This site is the side of current St. Peter's Cathedral.

The time elapsed ....., the then Pope Sixtus V [reigned 1585-1590] directed the obelisk to be re-erected at the center of the colonnaded square, so-called St. Peter's Square in 1586, in front of the "new" Basilica of St. Peter, which was under construction at that time. It still remains here today.

Except this obelisk, all the obelisks in Rome toppled down in the Middle Ages. The Egyptologist Labib Habachi writes a reason in his book; "Legend has it that in the Vatican Circus innumerable Christians, including St. Peter, were put to death and that the reason this obelisk was not later overturned as were all the others in Rome was that it was looked upon as the last witness to the martyrdom of St. Peter."


Pagan monuments are transformed in Christ as was the whole Roman world. One small matter, however: it is a common belief that the Colosseum was the site of Christian martyrdoms. I'm not saying it never happened (though that may be true) but if it did, it was rare. What we call the Colosseum, really, the Flavian Amphitheater, was the site of gladitorial games. Most of the martyrdoms that took place in the city of Rome, were conducted in the Circuses: those of Domitian (today's Piazza Navona) Nero, (by the Vatican) and some in the Circus Maximus, possibly.

The first two Flavians, Vespasian and his son Titus, rejected emperor worship and tolerated Christianity even in their own households. Vespasian's brother was Christian. The persecutions were reignited with Titus younger brother Domitian (81-96AD). At the time Domitian's cousin Flavius Clemens was a consul and a Christian.

Interestingly, the really awful stuff, Nero and Domitian excepted, took place not in Rome, but on the edges of the Empire: Lyon, North Africa, Asia Minor etc. And persecution was sporadic. It was not, as some think, three hundred years of persecution. Even before Constantine, cooperation and convergence was taking place. Good historians on this period are Marta Sordi and Fr. Riciotti.

So the conclusion is the fountain was moved to St. Peter's Square as a sign of Christianity's victory over paganism. The obelisk was a witness to the martyrdom of St. Paul and now has a cross with a relic from the True Cross in it.

[homersodyssey]

From what I understand, there are several waves of Pagan influences on the RCC.

WORTH REPEATING: If any connection to a pagan festival or symbol makes the user pagan, then consider:

Romans, Egyptians, and Nazis used the eagle as a symbol.
The bald eagle is the symbol of America.
Therefore, Americans are pagans.

Saturn is the pagan god of the stars.
There are stars on Old Glory.
Therefore, Americans are pagans.

Lughnassadh is the pagan harvest festival.
Americans celebrate the harvest at Thanksgiving.
Therefore, Americans are pagans.

The "all seeing eye" is a pagan symbol for their god Saturn.
The "all seeing eye" appears on the back of the American dollar bill
Therefore, Americans are pagan.

Then again...
Canada's national flag bears the maple leaf.
Druids worship trees.
Therefore Canadians are pagans.

What about the months?
January is named for Janus (Ianuarius), the god of the doorway; the name has its beginnings in Roman mythology, coming from the Latin word for door (ianua) - January is the door to the year. (Wikipedia)

Days of the week?
Saturday was named no later than the second century for the planet (Saturn), which controlled the first hour of that day according to Vettius Valens. The planet was named for the Roman god of agriculture Saturn. It has been called dies Saturni ("Saturn's Day"), through which from it entered into Old English as Sæternesdæg and gradually evolved into the word "Saturday". (Wikipedia)

Wedding rings: As chance has it, the oldest recorded exchange of wedding rings comes from ancient Egypt, about 4800 years ago. In early Egypt, the ring was linked with the supernatural, a never-ending band linked with eternal love. For the Romans later, the ring's acceptance by a young lady was a binding, legal agreement and the girl was no longer free.

[homersodyssey]

I consider that the RCC has been "influenced" by evil by allowing these things to distract us from the teachings of Jesus Christ and being taught to walk in the ways of Jesus Christ rather then walking in the ways of Pagan worshippers.

Actually, when you think of it, it's you guys who know so much about paganism. Every false accusation you make is complete with details that I know nothing about. That suggests Catholics don't know much at all about paganism but "church of one" people do. Why do you suppose that is?

[RoBoTeq]

Actually, when you think of it, it's you guys who know so much about paganism. Every false accusation you make is complete with details that I know nothing about. That suggests Catholics don't know much at all about paganism but "church of one" people do. Why do you suppose that is?
Yea, well you didn't know much about Satan either. Just goes to show how your teaching has been distracting you from what influences are really being taught to you. Now that you have become the RCC apologist on all levels, including the sexual molestation issues, I doubt there is much that we have to discuss. I'm sorry I wasted your time with my misunderstanding that you may want to know the Truth rather then continue to make excuses for the deceits and wrong doings.

[arc8]

BTW: The Trinity is shown in the Old Testament and nothing more, search and study!


Homer, tell me, is the sacraments necessary for salvation or is Jesus Christ (The Lamb) enough?
Are we born into this world pure, clean, sinless? (Original Sin)


The Word of God teaches that God holds his Word higher esteem then anything in this universe. Jesus had to rebuke religious leaders concerning traditions of the fathers. But in all cases, Jesus lived by God's command not traditions, they were not as important!


Did you know that millions of believers were killed because they were rebaptized?

I wish I can find mine book called "The Gospel according to Mary", a very good book to read.

[jmac00]

WORTH REPEATING: If any connection to a pagan festival or symbol makes the user pagan, then consider:

Romans, Egyptians, and Nazis used the eagle as a symbol.
The bald eagle is the symbol of America.
Therefore, Americans are pagans.

Saturn is the pagan god of the stars.
There are stars on Old Glory.
Therefore, Americans are pagans.

Lughnassadh is the pagan harvest festival.
Americans celebrate the harvest at Thanksgiving.
Therefore, Americans are pagans.

The "all seeing eye" is a pagan symbol for their god Saturn.
The "all seeing eye" appears on the back of the American dollar bill
Therefore, Americans are pagan.

Then again...
Canada's national flag bears the maple leaf.
Druids worship trees.
Therefore Canadians are pagans.

What about the months?
January is named for Janus (Ianuarius), the god of the doorway; the name has its beginnings in Roman mythology, coming from the Latin word for door (ianua) - January is the door to the year. (Wikipedia)

Days of the week?
Saturday was named no later than the second century for the planet (Saturn), which controlled the first hour of that day according to Vettius Valens. The planet was named for the Roman god of agriculture Saturn. It has been called dies Saturni ("Saturn's Day"), through which from it entered into Old English as Sæternesdæg and gradually evolved into the word "Saturday". (Wikipedia)

Wedding rings: As chance has it, the oldest recorded exchange of wedding rings comes from ancient Egypt, about 4800 years ago. In early Egypt, the ring was linked with the supernatural, a never-ending band linked with eternal love. For the Romans later, the ring's acceptance by a young lady was a binding, legal agreement and the girl was no longer free.

when you put it that way, I got no problem being a Pagan:p

[RoBoTeq]

BTW: The Trinity is shown in the Old Testament and nothing more, search and study!I'm not quite sure why you would state that the Trinity is not shown in the New Testament. It is actually the New Testament that defines the "three in One triune of God". The Old (Hebrew Bible) Testament simply shows there is a plurality to God.

Genesis 1:1 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Genesis%201.1); 1:26 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Genesis%201.26); 3:22 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Genesis%203.22); 11:7 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Genesis%2011.7); Isaiah 6:8 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Isaiah%206.8); 48:16 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Isaiah%2048.16); 61:1 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Isaiah%2061.1); Matthew 3:16-17 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Matthew%203.16-17); Matt 28:19 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Matt%2028.19); 2 Corinthians 13:14 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/2%20Corinthians%2013.14). In the passages in the Old Testament, a knowledge of Hebrew is helpful. In Genesis 1:1 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Genesis%201.1), the plural noun "Elohim" is used. In Genesis 1:26 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Genesis%201.26); 3:22 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Genesis%203.22); 11:7 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Genesis%2011.7) and Isaiah 6:8 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Isaiah%206.8), the plural pronoun for "us" is used. That "Elohim" and "us" refer to more than two is WITHOUT question. In English, you only have two forms, singular and plural. In Hebrew, you have three forms: singular, dual, and plural. Dual is for two ONLY. In Hebrew, the dual form is used for things that come in pairs like eyes, ears, and hands. The word "Elohim" and the pronoun "us" are plural forms - definitely more than two - and must be referring to three or more (Father, Son, Holy Spirit).

In Isaiah 48:16 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Isaiah%2048.16) and 61:1 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Isaiah%2061.1), the Son is speaking while making reference to the Father and the Holy Spirit. Compare Isaiah 61:1 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Isaiah%2061.1) to Luke 4:14-19 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Luke%204.14-19) to see that it is the Son speaking. Matthew 3:16-17 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Matthew%203.16-17) describes the event of Jesus' baptism. Seen in this is God the Holy Spirit descending on God the Son while God the Father proclaims His pleasure in the Son. Matthew 28:19 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Matthew%2028.19) and 2 Corinthians 13:14 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/2%20Corinthians%2013.14) are examples of 3 distinct persons in the Trinity.




Homer, tell me, is the sacraments necessary for salvation or is Jesus Christ (The Lamb) enough?
Are we born into this world pure, clean, sinless? (Original Sin)


The Word of God teaches that God holds his Word higher esteem then anything in this universe. Jesus had to rebuke religious leaders concerning traditions of the fathers. But in all cases, Jesus lived by God's command not traditions, they were not as important! This is an absolute to live by theologically. Jews today are more traditionalists of the Misrah then followers of the Judaic faith.



Did you know that millions of believers were killed because they were rebaptized? I'm not familiar with this. Please explain.


I wish I can find mine book called "The Gospel according to Mary", a very good book to read.
There are several things not quite right about the Gospel of Mary. First, it is a Coptic writing and not Greek, although there is allegedly Greek fragments found.

The fact that only feminist Gnostic's promote this writing makes me take heed as well. Not that I don't believe that if Mary Magdelene were a man that she would not have been considered a Disciple of Jesus or even that Jesus could have been married to Mary Magdelene, these things I could accept. It is that we don't really know which Mary of the Bible is even being referred to as there were several.

There are several Coptic manuscripts being claimed as "gospels" of that being pushed by Gnostics that are worth a look, but do not abide by the qualifications for being accepted as bonafide works of the disciples of Christ.

[bootlen]

BTW: The Trinity is shown in the Old Testament and nothing more, search and study!

NT, also.

Homer, tell me, is the sacraments necessary for salvation or is Jesus Christ (The Lamb) enough?

He's been asked that and answered it. Ya got Scriptures?

Are we born into this world pure, clean, sinless? (Original Sin)

That's a new question.

The Word of God teaches that God holds his Word higher esteem then anything in this universe. Jesus had to rebuke religious leaders concerning traditions of the fathers. But in all cases, Jesus lived by God's command not traditions, they were not as important!

Not as important but GREAT teaching tools.

Did you know that millions of believers were killed because they were rebaptized?

Pertinence?

I wish I can find mine book called "The Gospel according to Mary", a very good book to read.

I didn't know there was such a book. Gonna google it.

[RoBoTeq]

when you put it that way, I got no problem being a Pagan:p
Exactly why so many Roman Catholics who turn away from the church also turn away from Jesus.

[homersodyssey]

Yea, well you didn't know much about Satan either. Just goes to show how your teaching has been distracting you from what influences are really being taught to you.

Exactly. Catholic teaching is focused on Jesus Christ the head of the Church, not trivialities.

[bootlen]

I wish I can find mine book called "The Gospel according to Mary", a very good book to read.



Interesting...but inconsequential.

[homersodyssey]

Homer, tell me, is the sacraments necessary for salvation or is Jesus Christ (The Lamb) enough?
Are we born into this world pure, clean, sinless? (Original Sin)

I never intended to become this forum's Catholic apologist. If you are sincerely looking for answers then you can Google just as easily as I can. If you are just looking for a debate I'd rather take a break if you don't mind. I'll speak up when absurd accusations get made, but I'm not looking to start any fights. However, the Irish in me likes to finish them.

[jmac00]

Exactly why so many Roman Catholics who turn away from the church also turn away from Jesus.

I turned away for "the church" but I still like Jesus and what he stands for.

I think all the scripture stuff is nice, but over complicates Jesus and God. I'm very happy with the simplicity of love and serve all.:)

[TB]

Actually, when you think of it, it's you guys who know so much about paganism. Every false accusation you make is complete with details that I know nothing about. That suggests Catholics don't know much at all about paganism but "church of one" people do. Why do you suppose that is?

I don't have to suppose my friend, I know exactly why that is--in my case. I was raised in a "Christian" denomination very much like the RCC, and was indoctrinated with their form of religion from an early age. When I was in my 20's, I began reading the bible myself, and fount that I was taught wrong. I recognized the difficulty in realizing the fallacies of "first impressions", and identifying the need to think through the things I have allways believed to be true, simply because I was told to believe them before I was of the age to think them through. I now not only know what I believe about the Bible, but also why, because I've studied it ever since. Lately, I have studied other religions, but not with books written by Christians about them, but by reading their own books. As a result, I can reveal the fallacies of Mormonism, to Mormons, by showing them how much their own religion is identical in nature to Catholicism--a religion they believe to be apostate. If a = M, and M = C, then a = M. They can no longer be intellectually deceived--only willingly deceived.

I prefer to address those who are not willing to be intellectually deceived though. Actually, that is just a side benefit though, the real value is that I am no longer able to be intellectually deceived. Of the religious books I've read, none but the Bible, can avoid proving itself false with numerous self-contradictions, mutually exclusive statements, and absurdities. This also includes the RC Catechism, both of them, although especially the new one. This is why I recommended to you to investigate wiccan writings yourself, and read the whole Bible. If you're interested in Truth, you'll see it, and you won't have to believe me, just because I said so.

[TB]

WORTH REPEATING: If any connection to a pagan festival or symbol makes the user pagan, then consider:

Romans, Egyptians, and Nazis used the eagle as a symbol.
The bald eagle is the symbol of America.
Therefore, Americans are pagans.

Saturn is the pagan god of the stars.
There are stars on Old Glory.
Therefore, Americans are pagans.

Lughnassadh is the pagan harvest festival.
Americans celebrate the harvest at Thanksgiving.
Therefore, Americans are pagans.

The "all seeing eye" is a pagan symbol for their god Saturn.
The "all seeing eye" appears on the back of the American dollar bill
Therefore, Americans are pagan.

Then again...
Canada's national flag bears the maple leaf.
Druids worship trees.
Therefore Canadians are pagans.

What about the months?
January is named for Janus (Ianuarius), the god of the doorway; the name has its beginnings in Roman mythology, coming from the Latin word for door (ianua) - January is the door to the year. (Wikipedia)

Days of the week?
Saturday was named no later than the second century for the planet (Saturn), which controlled the first hour of that day according to Vettius Valens. The planet was named for the Roman god of agriculture Saturn. It has been called dies Saturni ("Saturn's Day"), through which from it entered into Old English as Sæternesdæg and gradually evolved into the word "Saturday". (Wikipedia)

Wedding rings: As chance has it, the oldest recorded exchange of wedding rings comes from ancient Egypt, about 4800 years ago. In early Egypt, the ring was linked with the supernatural, a never-ending band linked with eternal love. For the Romans later, the ring's acceptance by a young lady was a binding, legal agreement and the girl was no longer free.

I find it refreshing that you at least use logic, but you fail to recognize the logic fallacies you employ in it...or do you employ them on purpose...

[bootlen]

I find it refreshing that you at least use logic, but you fail to recognize the logic fallacies you employ in it...or do you employ them on purpose...

It appears to me he's trying to show that symbols are that and nothing else. It's what they mean to each person as to whether they are pagan or otherwise.

Sorta like Peter's dream about non-kosher food. God had to straighten him out about it. To Peter, it was unclean. To Gentiles, it held no meaning at all one way or the other.

I really think we should be careful in how we perceive our Catholic friends...some of them brothers/sisters in Christ. And in all cases, be sure of hitting the target, false doctrine, and not those who have been deceived by it.

[bootlen]

Press on...

[TB]

I never intended to become this forum's Catholic apologist. If you are sincerely looking for answers then you can Google just as easily as I can. If you are just looking for a debate I'd rather take a break if you don't mind. I'll speak up when absurd accusations get made, but I'm not looking to start any fights. However, the Irish in me likes to finish them.

:D:D:D Norwegians too. :D:D:D

[TB]

I turned away for "the church" but I still like Jesus and what he stands for.



:cool: cool. Lets start there then. Read the Bible, and enjoy knowing more and more what He stood for, (not what someone said He stands fore once upon a time). Get to know Him, and you'll look foreward to knowing Him more

[homersodyssey]

when you put it that way, I got no problem being a Pagan:p


It gets worse for me. Besides having a druid symbol on my nation's flag...

Pagans celebrate the equinox.
I drive a Chevy Equinox.
Therefore, I'm a pagan.

The pagan tiger symbolizes the walker of secret paths.
My football team's logo is a tiger (Hamilton Tiger Cats).
Therefore, I cheer for pagans.

[TB]

It appears to me he's trying to show that symbols are that and nothing else. It's what they mean to each person as to whether they are pagan or otherwise.agreed. I'm more concerned about the paganism in the RC Catechism than the obelisk anyways. We got a couple in our country too.


Sorta like Peter's dream about non-kosher food. God had to straighten him out about it. To Peter, it was unclean. To Gentiles, it held no meaning at all one way or the other. yup, ...eat anything sold in the meat market w/o raising question of concience...


I really think we should be careful in how we perceive our Catholic friends...some of them brothers/sisters in Christ. And in all cases, be sure of hitting the target, false doctrine, and not those who have been deceived by it. am I getting out of line? Pardon me if I am.

[homersodyssey]

Homer, tell me, is the sacraments necessary for salvation or is Jesus Christ (The Lamb) enough?
Are we born into this world pure, clean, sinless? (Original Sin)

Sorry if I was short with you earlier. The World Junior Hockey Championship tournament is on. It's the Canadian equivalent to the Final Four. Now my wife's calling me to help out in the kitchen (ya, I know, crack the whip) so here are a few websites to check out:

www.catholic.com

www.catholicculture.org

www.askacatholic.com

Robo knows some good ones too.

God Bless,

[TB]

It gets worse for me. Besides having a druid symbol on my nation's flag...

Pagans celebrate the equinox.
I drive a Chevy Equinox.
Therefore, I'm a pagan.



well, just dont let your second car be a mitsubishi-- that's a wiccan earth magik symbol on the back of them

;)

[jmac00]

:cool: cool. Lets start there then. Read the Bible, and enjoy knowing more and more what He stood for, (not what someone said He stands fore once upon a time). Get to know Him, and you'll look foreward to knowing Him more


I don't really need a book to tell me that Gods and Jesus's love is all encompassing and everywhere?

I don't see the big deal? :rolleyes: I'm not really worried about getting in to heaven either. I figure God KNOWS ME, HE KNOWS my heart and mind are in a good place and that I will do the right thing.

[acmanko]

Pagan women shaved their legs and wore makeup

[jmac00]

Pagan women shaved their legs and wore makeup

Thank you God :D:D:D

[TB]

I don't really need a book to tell me that Gods and Jesus's love is all encompassing and everywhere?

I don't see the big deal? :rolleyes: I'm not really worried about getting in to heaven either. I figure God KNOWS ME, HE KNOWS my heart and mind are in a good place and that I will do the right thing.

And where is your heart and mind? in a place where they do not want to know Him, or read His word? and that's a good place?

[jmac00]

And where is your heart and mind? in a place where they do not want to know Him, or read His word? and that's a good place?

some people feel the need to expound on the bible, and that's fine with me.

If that's what floats your boat, cool.

But honestly? do you really need to read stories of God and Jesus to feel closer to him? If you get right down to the basics of God and Jesus, what is the basic message? what IS Jesus's BASIC message to all people???

It's really a very simple message, love one another and love God.

If you volunteer at a homeless shelter or a hospital, or you are a community organizer and you help your fellow man to love each other, Love Jesus and God, have not just done Gods work:confused:

Is God going to deny me entrance into heaven because I didn't read a Bible. Or his he going to allow me to live in eternal bliss with him in heaven because I did his work and loved my fellow man and helped my fellow man love each other?

[arc8]

Is the Ten Commandment meaningless? Shouldn't we obey God?

Jesus died because we broke God's commandments.

According to the scriptures (the law/s of God) the majority will not be going to Heaven! only a few.

The first commandment with a promise:
Love God with all your heart, with all your mind, with all your soul and with all your strength. Really, do we care enough?

Jesus Christ died for us, we owed him!!!

PS The Trinity is obvious in both the OT & NT!

[jmac00]

Is the Ten Commandment meaningless? Shouldn't we obey God?

Jesus died because we broke God's commandments.

According to the scriptures (the law/s of God) the majority will not be going to Heaven! only a few.

The first commandment with a promise:
Love God with all your heart, with all your mind, with all your soul and with all your strength. Really, do we care enough?

Jesus Christ died for us, we owed him!!!

PS The Trinity is obvious in both the OT & NT!

Isn't that why Jesus died for us? Because I (we) will never be that perfect.

and if only a few will get into heaven, I guess I'll just do the best I can and hope for the best:)

[bootlen]

I don't really need a book to tell me that Gods and Jesus's love is all encompassing and everywhere?

I don't see the big deal? :rolleyes: I'm not really worried about getting in to heaven either. I figure God KNOWS ME, HE KNOWS my heart and mind are in a good place and that I will do the right thing.

Yes, you do.
"I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it is teh power of God unto salvation."
"Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."

If you expect to just BEGIN a relationship with Him, you first have to hear the gospel. And the gospel won't just pop into your mind. Even Scrog will back me on that one.

[jmac00]

Yes, you do.
"I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it is teh power of God unto salvation."
"Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."

If you expect to just BEGIN a relationship with Him, you first have to hear the gospel. And the gospel won't just pop into your mind. Even Scrog will back me on that one.


okay? :confused: I'm quite comfortable with my relationship with God and JC.

[bootlen]

agreed. I'm more concerned about the paganism in the RC Catechism than the obelisk anyways. We got a couple in our country too.
yup, ...eat anything sold in the meat market w/o raising question of concience...
am I getting out of line? Pardon me if I am.

No, I don't think you were out of line. Just a little condemning. Homer is, or was, unaware of the pagan symbolism. What was not an issue to come between God and himself has suddenly possibly become one. We are called to be "all things to all men" in order to reach those men. Does that mean we compromise? Not at all. It means we just present the truth and let them chew on it (that's Scriptural BTW).

But to try to stomach pump them and then jam thruth down their throat is harmful.

Personally, I say toss the extemporaneous writings and stick to Scripture. (Sola Scriptura.) Allow God Himself to be the Authority.

[bootlen]

okay? :confused: I'm quite comfortable with my relationship with God and JC.

LOL! So is satan. But I wouldn't wanna be in his shoes.

Edit: now that I think about it, MOST lost people are comfortable in that relationship.

As a sinner saved by grace, I am not comfortable. I have need of vast improvement. I am not holy but God says, "Be holy, for I am holy."

[jmac00]

LOL! So is satan. But I wouldn't wanna be in his shoes.

Edit: now that I think about it, MOST lost people are comfortable in that relationship.

As a sinner saved by grace, I am not comfortable. I have need of vast improvement. I am not holy but God says, "Be holy, for I am holy."

Lets try a different approach........

sum up God, in one word?

[bootlen]

Lets try a different approach........

sum up God, in one word?

I don't have to...He did already: "Love"..."agape" in a transliteration from the Greek.

[jmac00]

I don't have to...He did already: "Love"..."agape" in a transliteration from the Greek.


there ya go? what else did you need to know? :p

[bootlen]

there ya go? what else did you need to know? :p

Knowing that don't cut it. Like I said, satan knows a whole lot more and he ain't gunna make it. There ARE other things you should know, like where is the evidence of your relationship with Him. No evidence...no relationship.

[RoBoTeq]

I turned away for "the church" but I still like Jesus and what he stands for.

I think all the scripture stuff is nice, but over complicates Jesus and God. I'm very happy with the simplicity of love and serve all.:)
I don't think it is scripture so much that complicates things so much as it is the interpretations of what scripture means to those organizations wanting to use scripture for their own mortal gain.

Scripture is pretty easy; Love one another as I love you. That's pretty much the gist of it for Christians. For particulars in scripture for particular issues of life, it is a matter of understanding what those who are being referred to in scripture were going through at the time they were going through it so we can relate how scripture advise us to deal with similar issues throughout our lives.

Unfortunately, organized religions obscure the Truth of scripture in order to make themselves sound so needed for interpretations of scripture that we will support the organization rather then learn the Truth.

[jmac00]

Knowing that don't cut it. Like I said, satan knows a whole lot more and he ain't gunna make it. There ARE other things you should know, like where is the evidence of your relationship with Him. No evidence...no relationship.


evidence :D Your demanding an intangible thing , the only evidence is in my heart, I need not prove anything to your or anyone else.

THAT, is between me and GOD. And God knows I love him and I know he loves me.........we're cool :cool:

[jmac00]

I don't think it is scripture so much that complicates things so much as it is the interpretations of what scripture means to those organizations wanting to use scripture for their own mortal gain.

Scripture is pretty easy; Love one another as I love you. That's pretty much the gist of it for Christians. For particulars in scripture for particular issues of life, it is a matter of understanding what those who are being referred to in scripture were going through at the time they were going through it so we can relate how scripture advise us to deal with similar issues throughout our lives.

Unfortunately, organized religions obscure the Truth of scripture in order to make themselves sound so needed for interpretations of scripture that we will support the organization rather then learn the Truth.

thats all I'm say'n. It's as simple as that:)

[RoBoTeq]

It appears to me he's trying to show that symbols are that and nothing else. It's what they mean to each person as to whether they are pagan or otherwise.

Sorta like Peter's dream about non-kosher food. God had to straighten him out about it. To Peter, it was unclean. To Gentiles, it held no meaning at all one way or the other.

I really think we should be careful in how we perceive our Catholic friends...some of them brothers/sisters in Christ. And in all cases, be sure of hitting the target, false doctrine, and not those who have been deceived by it.
I agree 100% boots. I thought I was dealing with someone who had only been deceived by false doctrine until that person started defending false doctrine along with evil deeds done within the RCC. There is no sense in wasting time on someone who has already decided to fight on the side of false teachings and evil actions.

I just returned home from a wonderful dinner with a very good friend who happens to be a good Catholic. He understands my points of view on his choice of religious organization and denies the aspects of the RCC that he has come to realize is not only false, but downright evil. This individual openly rejects the wrongs of the RCC rather then making excuses for them.

[RoBoTeq]

:cool: cool. Lets start there then. Read the Bible, and enjoy knowing more and more what He stood for, (not what someone said He stands fore once upon a time). Get to know Him, and you'll look foreward to knowing Him more
Good advice. Just by studying the Biblical passages we will find where organized religious doctrine is simply wrong in many instances. Satan relies on the masses just believing the deceits of those who Satan has corrupted, unfortunaely those are the very clergy we tend to depend on.

Remember the warnings of false prophets? Well, that is not about major religious leaders, it is about all religious leaders. Read and study the passages for yourself and constantly pray to God for guidance of the intent of those passages. This is how I came out of my Satanic, anti-Jesus beliefs. I was proven wrong and have never been more grateful for having been proven wrong.

[RoBoTeq]

I don't really need a book to tell me that Gods and Jesus's love is all encompassing and everywhere?

I don't see the big deal? :rolleyes: I'm not really worried about getting in to heaven either. I figure God KNOWS ME, HE KNOWS my heart and mind are in a good place and that I will do the right thing.
While I understand this sentiment, and I really do, it must be remembered that Satan's forces are constantly deceiving us. Therefore it is best to take advantage of the teachings of scripture even if it is only constantly repeating things such as psalm 23 and the Lord's Prayer to keep us in line with God's will.

[glennac]

.................................................. ..............
.................................................. ...........................
I just returned home from a wonderful dinner with a very good friend who happens to be a good Catholic. He understands my points of view on his choice of religious organization and denies the aspects of the RCC that he has come to realize is not only false, but downright evil. This individual openly rejects the wrongs of the RCC rather then making excuses for them.

Sorry robo this is to funny to pass. You have to forgive me. I can't let it go.

Robo I'm sure glad that you found someone who agrees with you even if it is a disgruntled member of the evil RCC. :D:)

Sorry just couldn't resist. Go ahead and take a free swing at me I guess I deserve it but I have a good sense of humor and you have knocked me down to the floor on this one.:D

[RoBoTeq]

Pagan women shaved their legs and wore makeup
So do I; what's your point?

[RoBoTeq]

Thank you God :D:D:D
Really? I prefer hairy women with no make up;):p

[homersodyssey]

IAs a result, I can reveal the fallacies of Mormonism, to Mormons, by showing them how much their own religion is identical in nature to Catholicism--a religion they believe to be apostate. If a = M, and M = C, then a = M. They can no longer be intellectually deceived--only willingly deceived.

I don't have any idea what you're going on about here. If you logic is similar to others here on this subject then it's basically - I'm right because the Bible tells me so. Does that about sum it up?

Does Robo know the Catechism is pagan too? I'm shocked he hasn't brought it up yet. Can you provide examples? You are aware Catholics read the Bible too, right?

Just where did that obscure fountain in St. Peter's Square question come from anyway, the Anti-Catholic Handbook? Seriously, if I didn't know about it how come you did?

[RoBoTeq]

some people feel the need to expound on the bible, and that's fine with me.

If that's what floats your boat, cool.

But honestly? do you really need to read stories of God and Jesus to feel closer to him? If you get right down to the basics of God and Jesus, what is the basic message? what IS Jesus's BASIC message to all people???

It's really a very simple message, love one another and love God.

If you volunteer at a homeless shelter or a hospital, or you are a community organizer and you help your fellow man to love each other, Love Jesus and God, have not just done Gods work:confused:

Is God going to deny me entrance into heaven because I didn't read a Bible. Or his he going to allow me to live in eternal bliss with him in heaven because I did his work and loved my fellow man and helped my fellow man love each other?
Rational thoughts to keep us from scripture cannot come from anything from God. It can only help to read the Words of how to better live our lives and to better prepare ourselves for our spiritual eternity then to try to go without God's help in an existance filled with demons who are very willing to deceive us.

The very fact that you have thoughts that keep you from scripture should be a red flag that you are being decieved.

[RoBoTeq]

Is the Ten Commandment meaningless? Shouldn't we obey God? We certainly should always try.


Jesus died because we broke God's commandments.Jesus died in payment for our innability to successfully obey all of God's commandments. I don't know if that is different then what you mean, but it is more important to me to know that God knows we are incapable of obeying His commandments to their fullest.


According to the scriptures (the law/s of God) the majority will not be going to Heaven! only a few. Scripture references, please.


The first commandment with a promise:
Love God with all your heart, with all your mind, with all your soul and with all your strength. Really, do we care enough?

Jesus Christ died for us, we owed him!!!Owed? I don't think that God thinks of it this way. We should certainly be grateful for the gift of Salvation, but I don't believe God considers us "owing" for Salvation. I believe that Salvation is free to all who accept it.


PS The Trinity is obvious in both the OT & NT!
Is this a change of heart from a previous post claiming that the Trinity is only mentioned in the Old Testament?

[homersodyssey]

I just returned home from a wonderful dinner with a very good friend who happens to be a good Catholic. He understands my points of view on his choice of religious organization and denies the aspects of the RCC that he has come to realize is not only false, but downright evil. This individual openly rejects the wrongs of the RCC rather then making excuses for them.

Oh, well, gee whiz, in that case I'll go along with you too then Robo. I guess I was wrong.

Wait a minute...I had lunch today with a guy who used to be a "church of one" just like you. After a quick chat he saw the light and converted to Catholicism before dessert - soul saved!

Seriously, are you this desperate now?

[RoBoTeq]

okay? :confused: I'm quite comfortable with my relationship with God and JC.
And that is good. However, unless you are hearing voices in your head (bad thing:confused:), it is best to go to scripture to get to know Jesus.

[RoBoTeq]

Lets try a different approach........

sum up God, in one word?
Love


But just try loving someone without making the effort to know and understand them.

[RoBoTeq]

Sorry robo this is to funny to pass. You have to forgive me. I can't let it go.

Robo I'm sure glad that you found someone who agrees with you even if it is a disgruntled member of the evil RCC. :D:)

Sorry just couldn't resist. Go ahead and take a free swing at me I guess I deserve it but I have a good sense of humor and you have knocked me down to the floor on this one.:D
Why do you have so much trouble understanding my posts Glenn. Where did I ever say my friend is disgruntled? Quite to the contrary Glenn, my friend is very content with with the RCC. He is just not so naive to believe that everything one organization tells him is absolutely true.

As it is thus far, my good Catholic friend constantly tells me I'm going to hell every time I inform him of another RCC Pagan ritual. We allow ourselves to learn from one another without blindly defending the teachings that have inspired us.

[RoBoTeq]

I'm seeing an interesting, albeit disturbing, pattern here. TB, Booty and myself have all had many disagreeing posts to one another, but we have always wound up finding a common ground. Homer is finding a common front from all three of us, who are very different in our theological approaches, yet he is denying everything that all of us are trying to inform him. Are the three of us, so different ourselves, that wrong?

[bootlen]

evidence :D Your demanding an intangible thing , the only evidence is in my heart, I need not prove anything to your or anyone else.

THAT, is between me and GOD. And God knows I love him and I know he loves me.........we're cool :cool:

Were that only true. "For if you confess me in your heart, you will confess me with your mouth." "You will hunger for My Word like a baby hungers for milk."

[acmanko]

So do I; what's your point?
that makes it a pagan ritual, and if you do it , then you support their beliefs.

[glennac]

Why do you have so much trouble understanding my posts Glenn. Where did I ever say my friend is disgruntled? Quite to the contrary Glenn, my friend is very content with with the RCC. He is just not so naive to believe that everything one organization tells him is absolutely true.

As it is thus far, my good Catholic friend constantly tells me I'm going to hell every time I inform him of another RCC Pagan ritual. We allow ourselves to learn from one another without blindly defending the teachings that have inspired us.

Well surly you have to admit your post had some humor in it and I couldn't resist the chance for a good joke. No offence intended robo and I do try not to "correct" you to much since we do agree a lot and are friends. I'll admit I probably have been a "hassling" you little bit lately but it's nothing personal. It's just my nature. Carry on and have a good day there.

[RoBoTeq]

that makes it a pagan ritual, and if you do it , then you support their beliefs.
Why? Many things we do in life were either also done by Pagan believers or even came out of Pagan rituals. Why would day to day actions without a context of religious faith cause someone to be Pagan?

We all breath too:rolleyes: Sometimes you are just silly.

[RoBoTeq]

Well surly you have to admit your post had some humor in it and I couldn't resist the chance for a good joke. No offence intended robo and I do try not to "correct" you to much since we do agree a lot and are friends. I'll admit I probably have been a "hassling" you little bit lately but it's nothing personal. It's just my nature. Carry on and have a good day there.
I know this, but I need to keep up my persona as god like on the forums;)

My Catholic friend even voted for Obama:(. He is younger then I am and with a wife and three children I figure he has more at stake, so I take our differences in stride. In business, he and I are very much on the same page, which had initially created the friendship.

[TB]

I don't have any idea what you're going on about here. If you logic is similar to others here on this subject then it's basically - I'm right because the Bible tells me so. Does that about sum it up?'Cmon Homer, even a mormon kid on my front porch can follow it. If A=B, and B=C, then A=C. In a mormons mind, the RCC is apostate, when it is shown to them just how similar mormonism and catholicism are, the conclusion ringing in their minds is that they also are apostate. It may have been a bit confusing, the way I presented it, but I was trying to let you come to the conclusion yourself that I was claiming that Mormonism and Catholicism are real close to being the same religion.


Does Robo know the Catechism is pagan too? I'm shocked he hasn't brought it up yet. Can you provide examples? You are aware Catholics read the Bible too, right?I don't know if Robo ever read the RC Catechism, but if he did, I'm sure he does know of it's paganism.

Some Catholics choose to read the Bible, yes, and some only choose to know what the Catechism and the Church says about what the Bible says. They'll be the ones who read the Catechism, or go to church, more often than they read the Bible, and trust the catechism, or the church, more than their bible.

Yes, I can provide examples, and so can you, or you do not know the Bible, and Catechism as well as you thought.


Just where did that obscure fountain in St. Peter's Square question come from anyway, the Anti-Catholic Handbook? Seriously, if I didn't know about it how come you did?A better question may be, why didn't you? It's your religion isnt it? How many other questionable, or just plain wrong teachings / practices are there you are also unaware of?
Like I said, I've been studying occult religions lately, and I have seen the similarities in all of them. There is only two religions in the world, Christianity, and the occult. There are a few occult religions that call themselves Christian, but that dosen't make it so. They are easily revealed by their love of and employment of symbols and icons, and their teachings that distract people from Jesus and his work for us, by focusing on our works for ourselves. They have a plethora of spiritual guides, spirits, guardians and other such things that all boil down to the category of "other gods" that God condemns. They do certain things, in certain ways, for certain results, exult dead humans to a status of power and/or influence, rather than realize they are just dead humans--either saved by grace, or not. The qualifying quality they use to exult them are their works. They make claims like if you leave their organization you've lost your chance at salvation. They deny there is a judgment and consequence faced before God, after death--some deny it outright, some promote a 'purifying existence' before the judgment, claiming there is a 'second chance' after this life is over. Some claim you can influence the existence of those dead, by doing something on their behalf. They tend to have a structure where some people are "closer to God", or more holy / enlightened than others are, or can be. They tend to appeal to a person and his writings as the authority, rather than God and His, and in general, an individuals spiritual status is dependent on that individuals state of being and earned 'credits', rather than Gods promise.

[TB]

Lets try a different approach........

sum up God, in one word?

How 'bout: Just

That is one word that sum's Him up. God cannot overlook sin, or allow it to go unpunished. Either Jesus paid for them and you accept Him, or you will pay for them. Either way, they must be paid for, and God only set up one way that we don't have to do it ourselves.

[homersodyssey]

A better question may be, why didn't you?

Well, it's a fair question but I thought I answered it (typical - you didn't).

The information I provided said the fountain was in the coliseum when St. Paul was martyred. There isn't any pagan symbolism or writing on it and the Church put a crucifix with a sliver of the True Cross on top. It is in the Square as a 'in your face' gesture to pagans, seeing as we beat them.

I have provided examples of American symbolism that would be considered pagan if held up to your criteria. You haven't said where you discovered this fountain. Did you visit the Vatican?

I apologize for not being clear with my question regarding your a+b=c thingie. I understood the math, but the comparison between Catholicism and Mormonism went right over my head.

Mormonism and Christianity

Mormonism is a restorationist Christian religion, with its origins firmly rooted in the Second Great Awakening.[19] There is much confusion and controversy over whether or not Mormonism should be called a Christian faith due to several factors. Today, the major differences between Mormonism and other Christian churches include the LDS Church's views on the Trinity; the nature and purpose of Jesus Christ; baptism, the meaning of salvation, eternal life, "The Gospel," and the afterlife; its temple worship; and its open canon. Mormon cosmology is also substantially different from that of historical Christianity. Given its stance on the Trinity, traditional Christian denominations such as the Roman Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodox Church, Anglican Communion and most branches of Protestantism consider the teachings of Mormonism heretical. One recent Pew Research poll shows only 52 percent of Americans believe that Mormonism is a Christian denomination. However, among traditional Christians, more than six in ten said Mormonism and their own religion are very different[20][21]

Despite these differences, Mormons and Christians hold similarly conservative views on social issues and often work together in political or humanitarian causes, most recently opposing same-sex marriages with Proposition 8. However, doctrinal conflicts between Mormonism and other Christian denominations remain. Mormonism does not accept the baptism of any other Christian church and rejects the apostolic succession of those churches that claim its existence. Some Christian denominations have acknowledged that Mormonism does not share their apostolic Christian tradition and have also declared Mormon baptisms to be invalid.[22] The issues listed below are a small sample of many talking points, although whether or not they argue for or against the inclusion of Mormonism within the category of Christianity depends entirely on individual viewpoints.


[edit] Lack of roots in historical traditional Christianity
Its late emergence in the historical Christian tradition makes it arguably part of the restoration movement rather than a traditional Christian faith. While Joseph Smith and almost all of his original followers were members of various Protestant faiths and much of the LDS Church services resemble New England style Protestantism, the ordinances of the Mormon temple have no historical equivalent within traditional Christianity beyond the Biblical record. Mormons avoid use of the cross in ritual, decoration, or apparel, but it is not forbidden. Mormons celebrate the Christian holidays (Christmas and Easter) and refer to Jesus Christ as their savior and head of their faith, with prophets, apostles, seventies, and other leaders acting as his servants.


[edit] Scripture
Mormonism teaches that the Gospel of Christ has existed since the days of Adam and Eve, and that throughout history apostasy from this gospel in its pure form led to the need for a restoration. Mormons believe that their doctrine has existed on the Earth throughout history, but at different eras was lost and later restored. Most notably Mormons believe the Great Apostasy occurred after the death of Saint Peter and the other original twelve apostles and the calling of Joseph Smith marked a new restoration that has continued to this day.[23]

The Book of Mormon, published in 1830 in Palmyra, New York, claims to be a sacred record written by Prophets of God practicing Christianity on the American Continent between 600 BCE and 400 CE. Mormons believe that the Book of Mormon is holy scripture and, as another testament of Jesus Christ, a companion to the Bible. Many Christians have held that the Book of Mormon was written by Joseph Smith, and that the Bible is the only book that should be accepted as scripture. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism

Here's the wikipedia link to Catholicism. I'm not sure which similarities you've noticed but I'd be happy to hear about them, should you provide them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church

Are you providing examples of paganism in the Catechism?

Every religion believes it is the sole path to salvation. Recently Pope John Paul II (well, recent in the 2000 year lineage from Christ) softened that stance by saying there are others. Basically all you are doing is declaring yourself an authority and labelling everyone else a pagan/occultist.

I appreiciate that people like yourself and Robo are against organized religion of all kinds. As a 'church of one' it's easy to criticize the formal, organized religions that have been around for thousands of years and the temptation of self declared authority is very real. Thing is, unless there's something I don't know about you, Christ said His Church will never die. I'm assuming you will, someday. Until then, enjoy your walk with Christ and I hope it leads you to Him.

[bootlen]

that makes it a pagan ritual, and if you do it , then you support their beliefs.

Not necessarily. God looks on the heart, not the outward appearance.

[bootlen]

How 'bout: Just

That is one word that sum's Him up. God cannot overlook sin, or allow it to go unpunished. Either Jesus paid for them and you accept Him, or you will pay for them. Either way, they must be paid for, and God only set up one way that we don't have to do it ourselves.

That definitely is a partial description but Scripture says that "God is love," and it also says in other places in not so many words that love is God.

I doubt seriously that how we define love is very close to how God defines love. Part of His expression of love is being a just God.

The 1st century Greeks had words for 4 types of love: eros, storge, phileo, agape. God is agape...unconditional love...a love for someone in spite of who or what they are. The other three are very conditional.

[arc8]

Quote:Originally Posted by TB
How 'bout: Just

That is one word that sum's Him up. God cannot overlook sin, or allow it to go unpunished. Either Jesus paid for them and you accept Him, or you will pay for them. Either way, they must be paid for, and God only set up one way that we don't have to do it ourselves.


Quote:Originally Posted by bootlen
That definitely is a partial description but Scripture says that "God is love," and it also says in other places in not so many words that love is God.

I doubt seriously that how we define love is very close to how God defines love. Part of His expression of love is being a just God.

The 1st century Greeks had words for 4 types of love: eros, storge, phileo, agape. God is agape...unconditional love...a love for someone in spite of who or what they are. The other three are very conditional.

Certainly, God has many attributes and they all are true, but let's not let one attribute rule out another for it does not do God justice.

What caused God to withdraw His fellowship from mankind? What brings on the turmoil seen in the world today? The simple answer is Sin.
Like TB said; "God is Just", he demands it, it's in His nature. But God is Love, He made a provision for man's sins, so we don't have to be judged and die the second death.
(The scriptures mention ... for love is of God; not love is God!)
God's attribute love; is not intended for God not to judge man. God gave it all (His Son: a gift), but man still refuses the gift; God will judge us all. Some of their Rejection of Christ and others for their Faithfulness.
You heard the song: Jesus paid it all; we owe him our lives, we are his bondservants as some scriptures teach (our attitudes). But we are jointheirs if we are born-again believers.


This is for Robo: He wanted it!
Matt.7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Concerning the Trinity: read all my post!

[RoBoTeq]

'Cmon Homer, even a mormon kid on my front porch can follow it. If A=B, and B=C, then A=C. In a mormons mind, the RCC is apostate, when it is shown to them just how similar mormonism and catholicism are, the conclusion ringing in their minds is that they also are apostate. It may have been a bit confusing, the way I presented it, but I was trying to let you come to the conclusion yourself that I was claiming that Mormonism and Catholicism are real close to being the same religion.
I don't know if Robo ever read the RC Catechism, but if he did, I'm sure he does know of it's paganism.

Some Catholics choose to read the Bible, yes, and some only choose to know what the Catechism and the Church says about what the Bible says. They'll be the ones who read the Catechism, or go to church, more often than they read the Bible, and trust the catechism, or the church, more than their bible.

Yes, I can provide examples, and so can you, or you do not know the Bible, and Catechism as well as you thought.
A better question may be, why didn't you? It's your religion isnt it? How many other questionable, or just plain wrong teachings / practices are there you are also unaware of?
Like I said, I've been studying occult religions lately, and I have seen the similarities in all of them. There is only two religions in the world, Christianity, and the occult. There are a few occult religions that call themselves Christian, but that dosen't make it so. They are easily revealed by their love of and employment of symbols and icons, and their teachings that distract people from Jesus and his work for us, by focusing on our works for ourselves. They have a plethora of spiritual guides, spirits, guardians and other such things that all boil down to the category of "other gods" that God condemns. They do certain things, in certain ways, for certain results, exult dead humans to a status of power and/or influence, rather than realize they are just dead humans--either saved by grace, or not. The qualifying quality they use to exult them are their works. They make claims like if you leave their organization you've lost your chance at salvation. They deny there is a judgment and consequence faced before God, after death--some deny it outright, some promote a 'purifying existence' before the judgment, claiming there is a 'second chance' after this life is over. Some claim you can influence the existence of those dead, by doing something on their behalf. They tend to have a structure where some people are "closer to God", or more holy / enlightened than others are, or can be. They tend to appeal to a person and his writings as the authority, rather than God and His, and in general, an individuals spiritual status is dependent on that individuals state of being and earned 'credits', rather than Gods promise.
Of all of the atributes of false teachings, teachings that cannot be supported by scripture, I believe the deliberate distractions are the most likely to be from the deceitful one.

Evil has been using methods to keep us from reading scripture directly for ourselves since the first words of scripture were put to papyrus. Scripture has deliberately been allowed to become obscure in its style of writings so that scripture can be interpretated by those who are being deceived.

With so many wonderful ways of breaking the time/culture codes of scripture, isn't it better to study scripture itself directly then to just follow the interpretations of scripture by others? This is a rhetorical question as the answer is obviously, yes.

Just because those who have interpreted scripture wrongly have been deceived by evil does not make them inherently evil. It does mean though, that if what a theological teacher tells us does not hold up when compared to scripture, well then, that person or organization needs to be questioned, not scripture. This is what Martin Luther did but unfortunately fell short on.

[RoBoTeq]

I appreiciate that people like yourself and Robo are against organized religion of all kinds. As a 'church of one' it's easy to criticize the formal, organized religions that have been around for thousands of years and the temptation of self declared authority is very real. Thing is, unless there's something I don't know about you, Christ said His Church will never die. I'm assuming you will, someday. Until then, enjoy your walk with Christ and I hope it leads you to Him.
I cannot speak for anyone else, but I am not at all against organized faith in Jesus Christ. What I am against is religiousity; the worship of the religion using Jesus Christ as a sales tool with no regard for scripture unless it benefits the financial and/or power structure of that religous organization.

How many buildings, statues or other permanent structures did Jesus's ministy own? There were finances, what was done with them?

[homersodyssey]

Evil has been using methods to keep us from reading scripture directly for ourselves since the first words of scripture were put to papyrus. Scripture has deliberately been allowed to become obscure in its style of writings so that scripture can be interpretated by those who are being deceived.

If the printing press wasn't invented until 1440, does that mean everyone before that went to hell?

What are all these obscure Scripture deceptions you speak of?

[RoBoTeq]

This is for Robo: He wanted it!
Matt.7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Concerning the Trinity: read all my post!
I appreciate the passage, which I am familiar with. I just don't like to adhere to a single passage as an overall conception without more support from scripture. We could go back and forth quoting singular passages supporting one anothers beliefs, but we need to more understand the overall intent of scripture rather then singular passages on particular issues.

"In my house there are many rooms"

[RoBoTeq]

If the printing press wasn't invented until 1440, does that mean everyone before that went to hell?

What are all these obscure Scripture deceptions you speak of?
I have no desire to throw pearls before swine homer. It is obvious that you feel your religion is under attack and all you are honing in on is defending your religion. My findings would be wasted on you until you want to know Truth rather then defend what you perceive to be correct.

By the way, your printing press comment is just absurd. There was a lot of literature available before the printing press invention, it was just a lot more expensive and therefore had to be shared rather then individually owned. Tynesdale's illegally printed Bible's prove that the RCC was hiding very much desired scripture from the unwashed masses. Once the people were allowed to study the Truth for themselves, they were able to reform the entire structure of Christian theology by learning the teachings of Jesus without the deceits of the RCC.

[homersodyssey]

I cannot speak for anyone else, but I am not at all against organized faith in Jesus Christ. What I am against is religiousity; the worship of the religion using Jesus Christ as a sales tool with no regard for scripture unless it benefits the financial and/or power structure of that religous organization.

How many buildings, statues or other permanent structures did Jesus's ministy own? There were finances, what was done with them?

It's sad you share Bill Maher's spiteful and jadded view of religion.

I suppose you walk around in sandals and a cloak all day, just like Jesus did? And unmarried? No children? Beard? No job? Savings account?

Mathew 16: 24-26
Then Jesus said to his disciples, 'Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it."

Mathew 19: 16-25
Now someone approached him and said, "Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?" He answered him, "Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." He asked him, "Which ones?" And Jesus replied, "You shall not kill, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not bear false witness, honor your father and mother, and you shall love your neighbour as yourself." The young man said to him "All of these I have observed. What do I still lack?" Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." When the young man heard this statement, he went away sad, for he had many possessions. Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Amen, I say to you, it will be hard for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of Heaven. Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."

[homersodyssey]

I have no desire to throw pearls before swine homer. It is obvious that you feel your religion is under attack and all you are honing in on is defending your religion. My findings would be wasted on you until you want to know Truth rather then defend what you perceive to be correct.

You keep attacking my religion, I defend it, prove your accusations wrong, you get frustrated, pick up your marbles and run home. I cite objective sources as major universities, newspapers, encyclopedias along with Scriptural and Catechism. You find obscure websites that are quickly discredited and obviously biased. You can call me a pig all you want, Christ said the world will hate the believer. The truth is I've called you out and you're not willing nor able to support your bigoted provocations.

The press wasn't invented until fairly recently. The common man didn't have books to study. Plus, literacy wasn't wide spread until even more recently. I'm glad we have our own bibles now but won't condemn those who preserved and spread the Word across the globe.

Your version of Christianity is self-authority and hateful attacks on others. You've built yourself up into a "church of one" where your beliefs are infallible. Based on all that, perhaps it would be better if Scripture wasn't so readily available.

Perhaps Satan's deceptions have gathered speed since the press, television, on-line seminaries, etc, were invented. Based on the amount of time you spend debating and interpreting Scripture it's obvious the chances of obscurity, deceit, and misinterpretation have increased. Why not use the gift of Christ to live a better life rather than all the vile you throw at others?

[RoBoTeq]

Homer is now reduced to snide personal comments. Pity, I once was like homer and so I know I can do nothing to introduce homer to Truth rather then deceit. I pray daily that people like homer have a similar awakening that I had many years ago and that through study of scripture people like homer will come to better understand that not all who claim to be of God, truly are of God, but sometimes of the Other.

[acmanko]

Not necessarily. God looks on the heart, not the outward appearance.
so in essence, according to the Church of Bootlen. Pagan rituals are OK as long as you pick and choose, as with Biblical Passages.!

[RoBoTeq]

so in essence, according to the Church of Bootlen. Pagan rituals are OK as long as you pick and choose, as with Biblical Passages.!
Hmmm, didn't take 20/20 vision to see this one coming. I'm kind of surprised booty let himself get hit with this one.

Let's try this again mancow; doing the same things that Pagan's do, ie; tatoos, partying, giving gifts, honoring birthdays etc., is done in a secular manner, then it is not actually a Pagan thing, but rather just something being done, like breathing. However; when we do things that Pagans do in the context of religious activities, we are then stepping on God's will that we not be like the Pagans.

I don't even see where God actually dislikes Pagans per se, but is more likely just irritated that Pagan's have misconstrued His attempts to communicate with them as His being many seperate deities. This is just an opinion of course.

[homersodyssey]

I wonder if pagans ever used palms in their ceremonies? Hopefully not on Sundays.

[bootlen]

so in essence, according to the Church of Bootlen. Pagan rituals are OK as long as you pick and choose, as with Biblical Passages.!

Ya know, I went back and looked and that simply AIN'T what I posted. I posted a statement based in Scripture. Ya got a problem with that, have a little talk with the Guy who said it.

Now that I think about it, ya prolly need to do that anyway.

[RoBoTeq]

I wonder if pagans ever used palms in their ceremonies? Hopefully not on Sundays.
Well, yes they do, but palms were also used by Jews to cover the paths for honored people to walk on. For Pagans, palms and other tree parts were used for certain Pagan rites;
March was an important month in the Roman year. Originally, it was the first month of the year and was celebrated with almost constant events. March 22 was the ancient Roman Festival of the Entry of the Tree. On this day priests of one of the goddesses, Cybele or Ops or Rhea, carried pine or palm trees through the city.


The fact that churches that use palms symbolically by carrying them and not by laying them on the ground could be perceived as more a Pagan ritual. Also, since Palm Sunday (the day that commerates the Pagan sun god) always falls a week prior to Easter, which follows the Pagan Spring rite timing, it is actually safe to say that the way palms are used in Christian churches is more Pagan then Biblical.

Now, if we as Christians were to lay palms on our walkways leading to our homes for our sharing a Passover meal and three days (or two, depending on the accuracy of our calculations) later we celebrate Jusus's resurrection, then the palms, the meal and the celebration of our risen Lord would not be of Pagan rituals.

[acmanko]

But a true Christian is supposed to be Christ like in all his/her daily endeavors. Not just on Sunday.

[RoBoTeq]

But a true Christian is supposed to be Christ like in all his/her daily endeavors. Not just on Sunday.
Not that Sunday has anything special to do with Christ, but you are correct that we should try to walk in His ways always. I know I am not that good, but as many people remind me often, I am trying;)

[glennac]

Well, yes they do, but palms were also used by Jews to cover the paths for honored people to walk on. For Pagans, palms and other tree parts were used for certain Pagan rites;

The fact that churches that use palms symbolically by carrying them and not by laying them on the ground could be perceived as more a Pagan ritual. Also, since Palm Sunday (the day that commerates the Pagan sun god) always falls a week prior to Easter, which follows the Pagan Spring rite timing, it is actually safe to say that the way palms are used in Christian churches is more Pagan then Biblical.

Now, if we as Christians were to lay palms on our walkways leading to our homes for our sharing a Passover meal and three days (or two, depending on the accuracy of our calculations) later we celebrate Jusus's resurrection, then the palms, the meal and the celebration of our risen Lord would not be of Pagan rituals.

So you are saying in this post and have in past ones Christians can't celebrate anything on their own it always has to be tied the Jewish feasts and ceremonies. Interesting thought. Perhaps we should all become Jews and then don't worry about it.:)

[RoBoTeq]

So you are saying in this post and have in past ones Christians can't celebrate anything on their own it always has to be tied the Jewish feasts and ceremonies. Interesting thought. Perhaps we should all become Jews and then don't worry about it.:)
Well Glenn, you are consistant:rolleyes:

I have never stated what you are claiming at all. I said that I for one will try to walk in the way of our Lord who observed the holy days of the Bible but will not celebrate days that are associated with Pagan holy days.

You are only calling Pagan oriented holy days, Christian, because that is what you and most others have been wrongly taught all of your life.

At the least, most Christians today use traditionally Pagan dates and rites to celebrate what they believe to be somehow Christian.

I realize that you may have been raised with the teachings that Jews are the murderers of your Lord and Saviour, but the fact is that "I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile."

If you are not a Jew from birth, you cannot change your race. If you are a Christian, to theologically become a Jew would be denying Christ as the Messiah and taking a step backwards in our faith. But if you want Glenn, I'm sure I can get enough people here to pitch in to get you circumcized.

[TB]

Of all of the atributes of false teachings, teachings that cannot be supported by scripture, I believe the deliberate distractions are the most likely to be from the deceitful one.

Evil has been using methods to keep us from reading scripture directly for ourselves since the first words of scripture were put to papyrus. Scripture has deliberately been allowed to become obscure in its style of writings so that scripture can be interpretated by those who are being deceived.

With so many wonderful ways of breaking the time/culture codes of scripture, isn't it better to study scripture itself directly then to just follow the interpretations of scripture by others? This is a rhetorical question as the answer is obviously, yes.

Just because those who have interpreted scripture wrongly have been deceived by evil does not make them inherently evil. It does mean though, that if what a theological teacher tells us does not hold up when compared to scripture, well then, that person or organization needs to be questioned, not scripture. This is what Martin Luther did but unfortunately fell short on.
this really annoys me, when you post something I hafta completely agree with :D

[TB]

I'm seeing an interesting, albeit disturbing, pattern here. TB, Booty and myself have all had many disagreeing posts to one another, but we have always wound up finding a common ground. Homer is finding a common front from all three of us, who are very different in our theological approaches, yet he is denying everything that all of us are trying to inform him. Are the three of us, so different ourselves, that wrong?

I'm reminded of a lesson on Jesus trial series, as he was bounced back and forth between Pilate and Herod--bitter enemies before, but became friends after their experience with Jesus. Those who know Jesus are drawn together, and those who don't know Him unite in their opposition of Him.

[TB]

Ok, you like links, heres a couple that reveal not only the occult nature of the obelisk, but its intended occult use in the design of st. pete's square. The entire "square" was designed to be an occult symbol, in a circle--the preferred shape of witchcraft ceremonies too. The occult is big on symbols, plastering them all over the place.







Obelisks were prominent in the architecture of the ancient Egyptians, who placed them in pairs at the entrance of temples. The word "obelisk" is of Greek rather than Egyptian origin because Herodotus, the Greek traveler, was the first to describe the objects. Twenty-nine ancient Egyptian obelisks are known to have survived, plus the "Unfinished Obelisk" found partly hewn from its quarry at Aswan. These obelisks are now dispersed around the world, and only nine remain in Egypt.

The earliest temple obelisk still in its original position is the 20.7 m / 68 ft high 120 tons [3] red granite Obelisk of Senusret I of the XIIth Dynasty at Al-Matariyyah part of Heliopolis.[4]

The obelisk symbolized the sun god Amon Re, and during the brief religious reformation of Akhenaten was said to be a petrified ray of the Aten, the sundisk. It was also thought that the god existed within the structure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obelisk

Here you see a view of the piazza or plaza at the Vatican, also known as St. Peter's square. The papal palace is on the right edge of the photo. The large eight-rayed sun wheel design, symbolic of Ishtar, is immediately noticeable. Look closely in the center of the wheel. What you see there is an obelisk, a genuine Egyptian obelisk shipped from Heliopolis to Rome by the Roman emperor Caligula. The obelisk is, of course, a phallic symbol,* but it also was used in sun worship.

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/wheel.htm

[acmanko]

You know, the Jews, besides being Jews, were also Pagans. So any Jewish holiday is a Pagan holiday also

[jmac00]

You know, the Jews, besides being Jews, were also Pagans. So any Jewish holiday is a Pagan holiday also


your logic is scary, even to a schizophrenic :(

[acmanko]

your logic is scary, even to a schizophrenic :(
sometimes , I scare myself. But Moses broke the first slab with the commandments because the Jews had returned to their pagan ways and guilded the calf.:confused:

[homersodyssey]

Ok, you like links, heres a couple that reveal not only the occult nature of the obelisk, but its intended occult use in the design of st. pete's square. The entire "square" was designed to be an occult symbol, in a circle--the preferred shape of witchcraft ceremonies too. The occult is big on symbols, plastering them all over the place.

Geez, I was hoping today's site maintenance would have cleaned up this tripe. I provided the answer a few pages back. Did you read it?

That's an interesting website you sourced. It lists Catholicism with a "666". Quite objective. He also asserts church steeples are phalic symbols.

Your assertion is self-defeating. If obelisks are used for witchcraft ceremonies, then when was the last one in St. Peter's Square? Why haven't I heard of Baal or Ishtar? Why do they not appear in any Church teachings such as the Catechism?

Some say this obelisk was the last thing St. Peter saw before he was martyred. By no coincidence, it now stands in St. Peter's Square. Besides honoring him, it symbolizes triumph and proves anything or one can be converted (hint, hint).

I found some other obelisks you may be familiar with:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Monument
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Russell_House
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunker_Hill_Monument
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln%27s_Tomb
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Groton_Heights


God Bless,

[jmac00]

I got another question:

Why would God let someone take there own life :(:(:(:(:(:(:mad::mad::mad:

[homersodyssey]

Because God gave us free will.

And I hope this is another theoretical question.

[jmac00]

Because God gave us free will.

And I hope this is another theoretical question.


:(:(:(:(:( it's not :(:(:(:(:( RIP joe

[homersodyssey]

:(:(:(:(:( it's not :(:(:(:(:( RIP joe

I'm so sorry to hear that, jmac. It's such a senseless thing and hurts those closest. I'll pray for Joe tonight

[jmac00]

I'm so sorry to hear that, jmac. It's such a senseless thing and hurts those closest. I'll pray for Joe tonight

thanx? I'm very sad tonight:(

http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?p=2095112&posted=1#post2095112

[TB]

Jmac, I'm sorry. My wife's nephew died the same way, 4 days before his 20th b-day (or so the air force says).

Homers right, because we have been given freedom of choice, God allows us to make it. When the demons come, bringing their onslaught of accusations against you like the, "what if's", "why didn't I see it coming", and,, "if I had only..." You can allways tell your troubles and thoughts and feelings to God, even if they're anger at Him (yes, it's ok to tell god your angry at Him--it's who we are people who get angry... at Him too). Hang on my friend, and talk to us.


Would you like to introduce us to Joe?

[TB]

Geez, I was hoping today's site maintenance would have cleaned up this tripe. I provided the answer a few pages back. Did you read it?

That's an interesting website you sourced. It lists Catholicism with a "666". Quite objective. He also asserts church steeples are phalic symbols.

Your assertion is self-defeating. If obelisks are used for witchcraft ceremonies, then when was the last one in St. Peter's Square? Why haven't I heard of Baal or Ishtar? Why do they not appear in any Church teachings such as the Catechism?

Some say this obelisk was the last thing St. Peter saw before he was martyred. By no coincidence, it now stands in St. Peter's Square. Besides honoring him, it symbolizes triumph and proves anything or one can be converted (hint, hint).

I found some other obelisks you may be familiar with:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Monument
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Russell_House
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunker_Hill_Monument
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln%27s_Tomb
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Groton_Heights


God Bless,

Yep, I'm familiar with them, in fact the whole city of Washington D.C. is laid out with many occult symbols as seen from the air. The Washington monument is only one of them.

[RoBoTeq]

I'm reminded of a lesson on Jesus trial series, as he was bounced back and forth between Pilate and Herod--bitter enemies before, but became friends after their experience with Jesus. Those who know Jesus are drawn together, and those who don't know Him unite in their opposition of Him.
I just got one of them rare tingles of contentment with the universe:)

I have never thought about this before, but it certainly does make sense.

[RoBoTeq]

You know, the Jews, besides being Jews, were also Pagans. So any Jewish holiday is a Pagan holiday also
So, may we assume your ancestors were idiots?

[RoBoTeq]

I got another question:

Why would God let someone take there own life :(:(:(:(:(:(:mad::mad::mad:
God let's us do whatever we want. That's the whole point of our love for God being a choice and not an obligation. That is why some who claim to love God will be called on this because they are just going through the motions out of obligation.

[homersodyssey]

Yep, I'm familiar with them, in fact the whole city of Washington D.C. is laid out with many occult symbols as seen from the air. The Washington monument is only one of them.

As I can't recall any pagan ceremonies or witchcraft rituals performed around any of these obelisks I'm going to conclude that your accusation is false. Just as there are no pagan ceremonies or witchcraft rituals performed on Capital Hill there are also none in St. Peter's Square or your local parish.

If you have some spare time, I can provide you with some positive websites to check out rather than from people who's motivation with Christianity is to express negativity. This isn't why Jesus came down from heaven and walked among us.

[RoBoTeq]

As I can't recall any pagan ceremonies or witchcraft rituals performed around any of these obelisks I'm going to conclude that your accusation is false. Just as there are no pagan ceremonies or witchcraft rituals performed on Capital Hill there are also none in St. Peter's Square or your local parish.


Christmas?

Easter?

What do you think we have been discussing?

[RoBoTeq]

If you have some spare time, I can provide you with some positive websites to check out rather than from people who's motivation with Christianity is to express negativity. This isn't why Jesus came down from heaven and walked among us.
This is the problem, you are only seeing what you are looking for and you are not looking in scripture.

Do you want to try to be a good Christian, one who follows Christ, or do you want to be a good Catholic? You can't effectively do both.

[homersodyssey]

Oh, Robo. I wish Christ would remove the blinders and get your passion working for Him.

I've proven Christmas and Easter to not be pagan, as well as the Catholic Church. At this point all you keep doing is repeating the same weak accusations and ignoring my refutations. In some ways I wish there was some substance to these claims as it would at least make for an interesting discussion. I'm not sure what the cause or origin of your contempt is but I will keep my eyes open for it and let you know if I come across anything.

I may be just a simple country boy as this level of bigotry is completely new to me. I've read about this level of hatred but never experienced it for myself. Mistakenly I assumed logic, reason, and common sense would prevail, but I was wrong. Something this deep rooted will have to be solved by Christ Himself. I'll pray for the light of Christ to once again show you the errors in your ways.

Any website I would refer would most likely be Catholic based as there aren't any objective sources on this subject that I'm aware of. The Catholic sources all use Scripture in their explanations which once again, defeats your accusation. Actually, everything about the Church is Scripture based and Christ is the head officer. If you truly want to know Him then you will need to release that ego driven self-righteousness and remove the wooden beam.

God Bless,

[acmanko]

Christmas?

Easter?

What do you think we have been discussing?
Those are not pagan festivals, they are Christian Holydays.
just as the Jews celebrated their Pagan Gods , while Moses was on the Holy mountain, their beliefs in Paganism were strong and since the early Christians watched their Pagan brothers celebrate Celestial events, they too had holydays to correspond to them.

Your Hangup about Christmas and Easter must be because you never recieved more than ashes and coal for Christmans and Hollow marshmellow tweeps for Easter,.

[RoBoTeq]

Oh, Robo. I wish Christ would remove the blinders and get your passion working for Him.

I've proven Christmas and Easter to not be pagan, as well as the Catholic Church. At this point all you keep doing is repeating the same weak accusations and ignoring my refutations. In some ways I wish there was some substance to these claims as it would at least make for an interesting discussion. I'm not sure what the cause or origin of your contempt is but I will keep my eyes open for it and let you know if I come across anything.

I may be just a simple country boy as this level of bigotry is completely new to me. I've read about this level of hatred but never experienced it for myself. Mistakenly I assumed logic, reason, and common sense would prevail, but I was wrong. Something this deep rooted will have to be solved by Christ Himself. I'll pray for the light of Christ to once again show you the errors in your ways.

Any website I would refer would most likely be Catholic based as there aren't any objective sources on this subject that I'm aware of. The Catholic sources all use Scripture in their explanations which once again, defeats your accusation. Actually, everything about the Church is Scripture based and Christ is the head officer. If you truly want to know Him then you will need to release that ego driven self-righteousness and remove the wooden beam.

God Bless,
Sorry homer, but I'm gonna have to reject any blessings from someone who denies scripture and accepts Paganistic values as well as makes excuses for sexual molesters. At this point, I am having a difficult time believing that you have any Christian values what so ever.

I think you will be more content having theological discussions with syssy. Have fun you two.

[RoBoTeq]

Those are not pagan festivals, they are Christian Holydays.
just as the Jews celebrated their Pagan Gods , while Moses was on the Holy mountain, their beliefs in Paganism were strong and since the early Christians watched their Pagan brothers celebrate Celestial events, they too had holydays to correspond to them.

Your Hangup about Christmas and Easter must be because you never recieved more than ashes and coal for Christmans and Hollow marshmellow tweeps for Easter,.
I always had very nice, albeit more secular Christmas's and Easter's in my youth. It was not until I started having faith and developed a theology that I came to denounce these days for what they are.

I simply prefer to try to better understand Jesus's messages for us through the only True source, scripture. Everything I learn about Jesus must pass scripture, or I must assume it to be false.

[arc8]

Haven't you heard that Religion is of the Devil and Salvation is of God, probably not, seeing that your arguments are about Religion (pagan).

What is the True Church?
Which Church did Jesus (not Peter) build?

[acmanko]

I always had very nice, albeit more secular Christmas's and Easter's in my youth. It was not until I started having faith and developed a theology that I came to denounce these days for what they are.

I simply prefer to try to better understand Jesus's messages for us through the only True source, scripture. Everything I learn about Jesus must pass scripture, or I must assume it to be false.
But not all scripture is included in the Bible.
Since the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, which contained more books that have been banned, How do you figure what you read is correct. Remeber , the books that were banned were banned by the RCC

[homersodyssey]

I simply prefer to try to better understand Jesus's messages for us through the only True source, scripture. Everything I learn about Jesus must pass scripture, or I must assume it to be false.

Wow. That's exactly how some Muslims talk about Allah.

[RoBoTeq]

Haven't you heard that Religion is of the Devil and Salvation is of God, probably not, seeing that your arguments are about Religion (pagan).

What is the True Church?
Which Church did Jesus (not Peter) build?
Good point.

[RoBoTeq]

But not all scripture is included in the Bible.
Since the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, which contained more books that have been banned, How do you figure what you read is correct. Remeber , the books that were banned were banned by the RCC
I believe "not included" would be a more accurate term then "banned".

While it is true that the RCC was responsible for the compilation of canonized Bible writings, it was done by Christian leaders who were Christian leaders prior to the Roman takeover of Christianity.

I have heard many arguments for many non-canonized writings and I must say that all arguments for books not being canonized hold up to the scrutiny they were put under.

[TB]

So, may we assume your ancestors were idiots?

I don't care who you are, that's funny right there? :D:D

I almost choked on my spagettii :D

[TB]

As I can't recall any pagan ceremonies or witchcraft rituals performed around any of these obelisks I'm going to conclude that your accusation is false. Just as there are no pagan ceremonies or witchcraft rituals performed on Capital Hill there are also none in St. Peter's Square or your local parish. Sure 'bout that? dija know Aliester Crowley was convinced that gay sex was the most powerful form of sex magik?


If you have some spare time, I can provide you with some positive websites to check out rather than from people who's motivation with Christianity is to express negativity. This isn't why Jesus came down from heaven and walked among us.

Nope, it was so that we could know the truth, and be set free.

[RoBoTeq]

Sure 'bout that? dija know Aliester Crowley was convinced that gay sex was the most powerful form of sex magik?


Nope, it was so that we could know the truth, and be set free.
And sometimes the Truth is not always pretty. I sure am glad I never got into magic.

[TB]

And sometimes the Truth is not always pretty. I sure am glad I never got into magic.

magik (or ck) I think you mean. The occult uses the "k" or "ck" to distinguish between their occult behavior, and the slight of hand parlor tricks we call magic.

Not to be nit-picky, but that's why I spell it with a 'k' too, just to differentiate.;) (In case you might be thinking I had a spellling problm or somthing lik thet.;)

[TB]

Homer, Jesus said you can tell a tree by it's fruit. I assume you know what that means--don't judge a book by its cover, wolf in sheeps clothing, that kind of thing. It don't matter what is said, but what is the real meat of the matter. Do you really think that Satan attempts to decieve us by telling us he's comeing for us in sheeps clothing? Do you really think that Baal, and Ishtar are the only names those gods go by? You wanna take a guess at why every well trained and practiced witch, and sorcerer has a Bible on their shelf?

You claim Jesus is the head of the RCC, but the reality is the symbol chosen to display in the center of pete's square is a phallic symbol, supposedly to represent Peter, the head of the RCC. The focus of the RCC appears then, to be a dead man, not the living God. You claim to follow Jesus, yet appeal to the words of the pope as your source of truth. Do you see a problem here? Your actions are not consistent with your words. Thats what me and Robo have been driving at. There are no scriptures that support praying for those allready dead, praying to mary, or any 'patron saints' (which incedentally each are pagan gods renamed to sound biblical). There are none that support cellebacy in the priesthood, salvation if and only if your baptized into the RCC, salvation by baptism, forgiveness from communion, not to mention the other 5 'sacraments' the RCC claim, purgatory, immaculate conception, or holy water,. There are no scriptures to support those claimes the RCC makes---unless you look in pagan tradition, which is why the RCC claims tradition as a source of truth (which Jesus condemned)--so they can claim the other stuff.

[homersodyssey]

TB, I can and have cited the scripture base for everything you've listed. If you really want to live your life by Christ's words, His Church is the place for you. Right now you are ignoring many of His teachings. You can find these sources just as easily as I can or I'll write them out for you later today.

From what I've learned about Catholic bigotry out there (indeed a new thing for me) there's a differential between "church of one" or "bible alone" and Catholicism. The main attack seems to be on traditions. Traditions are the actualization of scripture. God doesn't give us His word to sit in the basement on-line. God's Words are to be lived as Christ lives is us.

As for the whole pagan thing, your argument had me thinking more about you and Robo than anyone else. Indeed, a wolf in sheep's clothing. Christ was a man of peace, unity, clarity and all you're doing is confusing, diverting, and turning people away.

All the bigotry sites I've seen list obscure notions like the St. Peter's Square obelisk while conveniently ignoring Washington Monument. Then they fail to connect with any collaborating evidence prior to arriving at their conclusions. This is weak thinking and doesn't stand up to reason. Why are you aware of Baal and I wasn't? Why do my days not involve any of these pagan thoughts are yours do. What part of the Mass, or Catechism, or Bible contains these thing you've been wrongly taught?

I have learned this bigotry is deep rooted and will not cure itself easily. There are people who believe Jews are rats, Blacks are sub-humans, and Catholics are pagans. It will most likely take Christ to lighten your heart and steer you away from any such evil thoughts. I'm still searching for the origins of this bigotry and will most likely form an explanatory theory which I'll share.

Although I'm grateful for Robo's devil obsession for helping me put some things in my own life into perspective, I wonder if it was an unintentional consequence. Perhaps the great deceiver is working through people claiming to be defenders of the faith who spend most of their time attacking others. Who are you focused on when studying ancient sun dance rituals? Why do you concern yourself with the actual date Christ was born and not spend your time celebrating His birth? If some ancient pagan winter festival keeps you from honoring our Saviour, then who is more likely to be a pagan?

As I said earlier, you are indeed ignoring some of Christ's teachings, however, you are following others so you're headed in the right direction. I have faith your salvation is at hand and God has a place for you in heaven. The question remains as to how you'll live your life here - walking in Christ's footsteps or worrying about pagan distractions. Christ said the world will hate the believer and based on what I've seen from you and Robo, I now feel what He was talking about.

[RoBoTeq]

magik (or ck) I think you mean. The occult uses the "k" or "ck" to distinguish between their occult behavior, and the slight of hand parlor tricks we call magic.

Not to be nit-picky, but that's why I spell it with a 'k' too, just to differentiate.;) (In case you might be thinking I had a spellling problm or somthing lik thet.;)
I've seen magic spelled with a "k" before and just thought it was an older way to spell it. I was not aware of the significance of the difference in spelling. I will keep that in mind from now on. I still don't like magic, cause I suck at it:(

[RoBoTeq]

Homer, Jesus said you can tell a tree by it's fruit. I assume you know what that means--don't judge a book by its cover, wolf in sheeps clothing, that kind of thing. It don't matter what is said, but what is the real meat of the matter. Do you really think that Satan attempts to decieve us by telling us he's comeing for us in sheeps clothing? Do you really think that Baal, and Ishtar are the only names those gods go by? You wanna take a guess at why every well trained and practiced witch, and sorcerer has a Bible on their shelf?

You claim Jesus is the head of the RCC, but the reality is the symbol chosen to display in the center of pete's square is a phallic symbol, supposedly to represent Peter, the head of the RCC. The focus of the RCC appears then, to be a dead man, not the living God. You claim to follow Jesus, yet appeal to the words of the pope as your source of truth. Do you see a problem here? Your actions are not consistent with your words. Thats what me and Robo have been driving at. There are no scriptures that support praying for those allready dead, praying to mary, or any 'patron saints' (which incedentally each are pagan gods renamed to sound biblical). There are none that support cellebacy in the priesthood, salvation if and only if your baptized into the RCC, salvation by baptism, forgiveness from communion, not to mention the other 5 'sacraments' the RCC claim, purgatory, immaculate conception, or holy water,. There are no scriptures to support those claimes the RCC makes---unless you look in pagan tradition, which is why the RCC claims tradition as a source of truth (which Jesus condemned)--so they can claim the other stuff.
Wasted pearls TB. I think we may have been duped by homer. Think about it; if anyone wanted to make the RCC sound even worse then it is, wouldn't posting the things homer posts be just about the best way to achieve this?

Homer has a username depictive of Pagan gods (don't get me wrong, I love the stories of The Odyssey). Homer is focusing on and magnifying every point of the RCC that is opposed by those who understand these things were derived from the Roman Empire's Pagan beliefs. And now, homer has allied himself with syssy, who has always posted anti-Catholic information, is anti-trinitarian and supports all religions be bannished.

C'mon, we've been had:o......and well done if I must have to admit:cool:

[bootlen]

TB, I can and have cited the scripture base for everything you've listed.

Homer, I'd be interested in knowing where in the Canon of Scripture those things TB listed are located. Could you itemize each one with the referenced Scripture?

[homersodyssey]

Homer, I'd be interested in knowing where in the Canon of Scripture those things TB listed are located. Could you itemize each one with the referenced Scripture?

I will Boot, it will take some time and I'm in the car a lot today so it'll probably be tonight. Have a good day, eh.

[RoBoTeq]

Homer, I'd be interested in knowing where in the Canon of Scripture those things TB listed are located. Could you itemize each one with the referenced Scripture?
Right....you know he cannot and you know we will just get more RCC rhetoric. Whenever homer has posted his claimed proof for any RCC doctrine it has come directly from an RCC source. Homer has no desire to learn anything other then how to better promote anti-Christian views.

[bootlen]

Right....you know he cannot and you know we will just get more RCC rhetoric. Whenever homer has posted his claimed proof for any RCC doctrine it has come directly from an RCC source. Homer has no desire to learn anything other then how to better promote anti-Christian views.

Well, that is to be seen. I just want a "line item : Scripture address" format. No commentary. No opinion (the only one that matters is God's). I think Homer understands what Im looking for.

I am a Scripture interprets Scripture kinda person so the "fire" will be hot enough to burn away false doctrine. But, let me remind you of your own words, Robo. "Keep an open mind." I happen to agree with you and TB on the RCC issues but talking about them using the Canon of Scripture will shed light and sharpen swords. Surely you don't have a problem with that.;)

[acmanko]

II. Mary - the Immaculate Ark of the New Covenant
Exodus 25:11-21 - the ark of the Old Covenant was made of the purest gold for God's Word. Mary is the ark of the New Covenant and is the purest vessel for the Word of God made flesh.

2 Sam. 6:7 - the Ark is so holy and pure that when Uzzah touched it, the Lord slew him. This shows us that the Ark is undefiled. Mary the Ark of the New Covenant is even more immaculate and undefiled, spared by God from original sin so that she could bear His eternal Word in her womb.

1 Chron. 13:9-10 - this is another account of Uzzah and the Ark. For God to dwell within Mary the Ark, Mary had to be conceived without sin. For Protestants to argue otherwise would be to say that God would let the finger of Satan touch His Son made flesh. This is incomprehensible.

1 Chron. 15 and 16 - these verses show the awesome reverence the Jews had for the Ark - veneration, vestments, songs, harps, lyres, cymbals, trumpets.

Luke 1:39 / 2 Sam. 6:2 - Luke's conspicuous comparison's between Mary and the Ark described by Samuel underscores the reality of Mary as the undefiled and immaculate Ark of the New Covenant. In these verses, Mary (the Ark) arose and went / David arose and went to the Ark. There is a clear parallel between the Ark of the Old and the Ark of the New Covenant.

Luke 1:41 / 2 Sam. 6:16 - John the Baptist / King David leap for joy before Mary / Ark. So should we leap for joy before Mary the immaculate Ark of the Word made flesh.

Luke 1:43 / 2 Sam. 6:9 - How can the Mother / Ark of the Lord come to me? It is a holy privilege. Our Mother wants to come to us and lead us to Jesus.

Luke 1:56 / 2 Sam. 6:11 and 1 Chron. 13:14 - Mary / the Ark remained in the house for about three months.

Rev 11:19 - at this point in history, the Ark of the Old Covenant was not seen for six centuries (see 2 Macc. 2:7), and now it is finally seen in heaven. The Jewish people would have been absolutely amazed at this. However, John immediately passes over this fact and describes the "woman" clothed with the sun in Rev. 12:1. John is emphasizing that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant and who, like the Old ark, is now worthy of veneration and praise. Also remember that Rev. 11:19 and Rev. 12:1 are tied together because there was no chapter and verse at the time these texts were written.

Rev 12:1 - the "woman" that John is describing is Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. Just as the moon reflects the light of the sun, so Mary, with the moon under her feet, reflects the glory of the Sun of Justice, Jesus Christ.

Rev. 12:17 - this verse tells us that Mary's offspring are those who keep God's commandments and bear testimony to Jesus. This demonstrates, as Catholics have always believed, that Mary is the Mother of all Christians.

Rev. 12:2 - Some Protestants argue that, because the woman had birth pangs, she was a woman with sin. However, Revelation is apocalyptic literature unique to the 1st century. It contains varied symbolism and multiple meanings of the woman (Mary, the Church and Israel). The birth pangs describe both the birth of the Church and Mary's offspring being formed in Christ. Mary had no birth pangs in delivering her only Son Jesus.

Isaiah 66:7 - for example, we see Isaiah prophesying that before she (Mary) was in labor she gave birth; before her pain came upon her she was delivered of a son (Jesus). This is a Marian prophecy of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.

Gal 4:19 - Paul also describes his pain as birth pangs in forming the disciples in Christ. Birth pangs describe formation in Christ.

Rom. 8:22 - also, Paul says the whole creation has been groaning in travail before the coming of Christ. We are all undergoing birth pangs because we are being reborn into Jesus Christ.

Jer. 13:21 - Jeremiah describes the birth pangs of Israel, like a woman in travail. Birth pangs are usually used metaphorically in the Scriptures.

Hos. 13:12-13 - Ephraim is also described as travailing in childbirth for his sins. Again, birth pangs are used metaphorically.

Micah 4:9-10 - Micah also describes Jerusalem as being seized by birth pangs like a woman in travail.

Rev. 12:13-16 - in these verses, we see that the devil still seeks to destroy the woman even after the Savior is born. This proves Mary is a danger to satan, even after the birth of Christ. This is because God has given her the power to intercede for us, and we should invoke her assistance in our spiritual lives.



Top

[bootlen]

II. Mary - the Immaculate Ark of the New Covenant
Mary is the ark of the New Covenant and is the purest vessel for the Word of God made flesh.

No Scripture reference to that title, AC? Don't bother. It ain't there. It's an RCC thing only.

Mary the Ark of the New Covenant is even more immaculate and undefiled, spared by God from original sin so that she could bear His eternal Word in her womb.

See above.

God to dwell within Mary the Ark, Mary had to be conceived without sin.

See above.

hron. 15 and 16 - these verses show the awesome reverence the Jews had for the Ark - veneration, vestments, songs, harps, lyres, cymbals, trumpets.

Irrelevant to this issue.

Luke 1:39 / 2 Sam. 6:2 - Luke's conspicuous comparison's between Mary and the Ark described by Samuel underscores the reality of Mary as the undefiled and immaculate Ark of the New Covenant. In these verses, Mary (the Ark) arose and went / David arose and went to the Ark. There is a clear parallel between the Ark of the Old and the Ark of the New Covenant.

So did a couple dozen people in Scripture rise and go. Pointless use of bandwidth there.

Luke 1:41 / 2 Sam. 6:16 - John the Baptist / King David leap for joy before Mary / Ark. So should we leap for joy before Mary the immaculate Ark of the Word made flesh.

This is obviously your way of interfering in an otherwise intelligent conversation between 2 intelligent people. Shame on you.

I'll ignore the rest of your pointless blather.

[arc8]

II. Mary - the Immaculate Ark of the New Covenant
Exodus 25:11-21 - the ark of the Old Covenant was made of the purest gold for God's Word. Mary is the ark of the New Covenant and is the purest vessel for the Word of God made flesh.

What?
Mary had other children!



2 Sam. 6:7 - the Ark is so holy and pure that when Uzzah touched it, the Lord slew him. This shows us that the Ark is undefiled. Mary the Ark of the New Covenant is even more immaculate and undefiled, spared by God from original sin so that she could bear His eternal Word in her womb.

What?
Mary was a sinner!



1 Chron. 13:9-10 - this is another account of Uzzah and the Ark. For God to dwell within Mary the Ark, Mary had to be conceived without sin. For Protestants to argue otherwise would be to say that God would let the finger of Satan touch His Son made flesh. This is incomprehensible.

What?
Jesus Christ: is God and Man! His deity (from God the Father) and his humanity (from his mother). Jesus had to become one of us, but without sin!!!



1 Chron. 15 and 16 - these verses show the awesome reverence the Jews had for the Ark - veneration, vestments, songs, harps, lyres, cymbals, trumpets.

Luke 1:39 / 2 Sam. 6:2 - Luke's conspicuous comparison's between Mary and the Ark described by Samuel underscores the reality of Mary as the undefiled and immaculate Ark of the New Covenant. In these verses, Mary (the Ark) arose and went / David arose and went to the Ark. There is a clear parallel between the Ark of the Old and the Ark of the New Covenant.

What?
Strange thinking.



Luke 1:41 / 2 Sam. 6:16 - John the Baptist / King David leap for joy before Mary / Ark. So should we leap for joy before Mary the immaculate Ark of the Word made flesh.

What?
John the Baptist cousin of Jesus leaps for joy because of the Saviour, not Mary!



Luke 1:43 / 2 Sam. 6:9 - How can the Mother / Ark of the Lord come to me? It is a holy privilege. Our Mother wants to come to us and lead us to Jesus.

Luke 1:56 / 2 Sam. 6:11 and 1 Chron. 13:14 - Mary / the Ark remained in the house for about three months.

Strange.



Rev 11:19 - at this point in history, the Ark of the Old Covenant was not seen for six centuries (see 2 Macc. 2:7), and now it is finally seen in heaven. The Jewish people would have been absolutely amazed at this. However, John immediately passes over this fact and describes the "woman" clothed with the sun in Rev. 12:1. John is emphasizing that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant and who, like the Old ark, is now worthy of veneration and praise. Also remember that Rev. 11:19 and Rev. 12:1 are tied together because there was no chapter and verse at the time these texts were written.

Rev 12:1 - the "woman" that John is describing is Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. Just as the moon reflects the light of the sun, so Mary, with the moon under her feet, reflects the glory of the Sun of Justice, Jesus Christ.

What?
The Woman in revelation had always meant the Jewish nation (the Mother)! I would be very careful in how you interpret revelation; let's not forget the drunken woman on the hills!



Rev. 12:17 - this verse tells us that Mary's offspring are those who keep God's commandments and bear testimony to Jesus. This demonstrates, as Catholics have always believed, that Mary is the Mother of all Christians.

What?
No, Mary is the Mother of Jesus and his half brothers and half sisters!



Rev. 12:2 - Some Protestants argue that, because the woman had birth pangs, she was a woman with sin. However, Revelation is apocalyptic literature unique to the 1st century. It contains varied symbolism and multiple meanings of the woman (Mary, the Church and Israel). The birth pangs describe both the birth of the Church and Mary's offspring being formed in Christ. Mary had no birth pangs in delivering her only Son Jesus.

Isaiah 66:7 - for example, we see Isaiah prophesying that before she (Mary) was in labor she gave birth; before her pain came upon her she was delivered of a son (Jesus). This is a Marian prophecy of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.

No! Mary was not a virgin when she died!


del



Rom. 8:22 - also, Paul says the whole creation has been groaning in travail before the coming of Christ. We are all undergoing birth pangs because we are being reborn into Jesus Christ.

"Whole Creation": key word/phrase! Incorrectly used! includes more than you think.



Jer. 13:21 - Jeremiah describes the birth pangs of Israel, like a woman in travail. Birth pangs are usually used metaphorically in the Scriptures.

Hos. 13:12-13 - Ephraim is also described as travailing in childbirth for his sins. Again, birth pangs are used metaphorically.

Micah 4:9-10 - Micah also describes Jerusalem as being seized by birth pangs like a woman in travail.

Almost right thinking! the woman represents Israel! period.


Rev. 12:13-16 - in these verses, we see that the devil still seeks to destroy the woman even after the Savior is born. This proves Mary is a danger to satan, even after the birth of Christ. This is because God has given her the power to intercede for us, and we should invoke her assistance in our spiritual lives.

Woman = Jewish nation: Israel!


Me thinks we need to study harder and more!!!


out

[bootlen]

He was making a joke, Arc8. I fell for it, too, till the 6th obviously looney reference. Ignore him. (No, he won't go away but it will save bandwidth.)

[homersodyssey]

I’m going to respond to these claims as effectively as possible. Here are a few sources that do a much better job than I at explaining the faith:

www.davidmacd.com just a guy like you and me who took the time to write this stuff out

www.askacatholic.com folks who have questions and scrutiny. Many answers are posted for your review.



TB Accusation #1 “You claim Jesus is the head of the RCC”

Actually, I don’t claim Jesus is the head of the Catholic Church, it is a fact.

- 669. As Lord, Christ is also head of the Church, which is his Body. Taken up to heaven and glorified after he had thus fully accomplished his mission, Christ dwells on earth in his Church. The redemption is the source of the authority that Christ, by virtue of the Holy Spirit, exercises over the Church. The Kingdom of Christ is already present in mystery on earth the seed and the beginning of the kingdom.

- 792. Christ is the head of the body, the Church. He is the principle of creation and redemption. Raised to the Father’s glory, “in everything he is preeminent, especially in the Church, through whom he extends his reign over all things.”
Catechism of the Catholic Church

Mathew 16: 13-21
When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” They replied, “Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets. He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
John 21: 15-20
When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of Jonah, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” He then said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord you know everything; you know that I love you, when you were younger, you used to dress yourself and go where you wanted; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.” He said this signifying by what kind of death he would glorify God. And when he had said this, he said to him, “Follow me.”

TB, take a moment and imagine what it must have felt like for Jesus himself to ask, “do you love me” and then command, “follow me”. Awesome!


Here are more scriptural references:

Matt. to Rev. - Peter is mentioned 155 times and the rest of apostles combined are only mentioned 130 times. Peter is also always listed first except in 1 Cor. 3:22 and Gal. 2:9 (which are obvious exceptions to the rule).
Matt. 10:2; Mark 1:36; 3:16; Luke 6:14-16; Acts 1:3; 2:37; 5:29 - these are some of many examples where Peter is mentioned first among the apostles.
Matt. 14:28-29 - only Peter has the faith to walk on water. No other man in Scripture is said to have the faith to walk on water. This faith ultimately did not fail.
Matt. 16:16, Mark 8:29; John 6:69 - Peter is first among the apostles to confess the divinity of Christ.
Matt. 16:17 - Peter alone is told he has received divine knowledge by a special revelation from God the Father.
Matt. 16:18 - Jesus builds the Church only on Peter, the rock, with the other apostles as the foundation and Jesus as the Head.
Matt. 16:19 - only Peter receives the keys, which represent authority over the Church and facilitate dynastic succession to his authority.
Matt. 17:24-25 - the tax collector approaches Peter for Jesus' tax. Peter is the spokesman for Jesus. He is the Vicar of Christ.
Matt. 17:26-27 - Jesus pays the half-shekel tax with one shekel, for both Jesus and Peter. Peter is Christ's representative on earth.
Matt. 18:21 - in the presence of the disciples, Peter asks Jesus about the rule of forgiveness. One of many examples where Peter takes a leadership role among the apostles in understanding Jesus' teachings.
Matt. 19:27 - Peter speaks on behalf of the apostles by telling Jesus that they have left everything to follow Him.
Mark 10:28 - here also, Peter speaks on behalf of the disciples by declaring that they have left everything to follow Him.
Mark 11:21 - Peter speaks on behalf of the disciples in remembering Jesus' curse on the fig tree.
Mark 14:37 - at Gethsemane, Jesus asks Peter, and no one else, why he was asleep. Peter is accountable to Jesus for his actions on behalf of the apostles because he has been appointed by Jesus as their leader.
Mark 16:7 - Peter is specified by an angel as the leader of the apostles as the angel confirms the resurrection of Christ.
Luke 5:3 – Jesus teaches from Peter’s boat which is metaphor for the Church. Jesus guides Peter and the Church into all truth.
Luke 5:4,10 - Jesus instructs Peter to let down the nets for a catch, and the miraculous catch follows. Peter, the Pope, is the "fisher of men."
Luke 7:40-50- Jesus addresses Peter regarding the rule of forgiveness and Peter answers on behalf of the disciples. Jesus also singles Peter out and judges his conduct vis-à-vis the conduct of the woman who anointed Him.
Luke 8:45 - when Jesus asked who touched His garment, it is Peter who answers on behalf of the disciples.
Luke 8:51; 9:28; 22:8; Acts 1:13; 3:1,3,11; 4:13,19; 8:14 - Peter is always mentioned before John, the disciple whom Jesus loved.
Luke 9:28;33 - Peter is mentioned first as going to mountain of transfiguration and the only one to speak at the transfiguration.
Luke 12:41 - Peter seeks clarification of a parable on behalf on the disciples. This is part of Peter's formation as the chief shepherd of the flock after Jesus ascended into heaven.
Luke 22:31-32 - Jesus prays for Peter alone, that his faith may not fail, and charges him to strengthen the rest of the apostles.
Luke 24:12, John 20:4-6 - John arrived at the tomb first but stopped and waited for Peter. Peter then arrived and entered the tomb first.
Luke 24:34 - the two disciples distinguish Peter even though they both had seen the risen Jesus the previous hour. See Luke 24:33.
John 6:68 - after the disciples leave, Peter is the first to speak and confess his belief in Christ after the Eucharistic discourse.
John 13:6-9 - Peter speaks out to the Lord in front of the apostles concerning the washing of feet.
John 13:36; 21:18 - Jesus predicts Peter's death. Peter was martyred at Rome in 67 A.D. Several hundred years of papal successors were also martyred.
John 21:2-3,11 - Peter leads the fishing and his net does not break. The boat (the "barque of Peter") is a metaphor for the Church.
John 21:7 - only Peter got out of the boat and ran to the shore to meet Jesus. Peter is the earthly shepherd leading us to God.
John 21:15 - in front of the apostles, Jesus asks Peter if he loves Jesus "more than these," which refers to the other apostles. Peter is the head of the apostolic see.
John 21:15-17 - Jesus charges Peter to "feed my lambs," "tend my sheep," "feed my sheep." Sheep means all people, even the apostles.
Acts 1:13 - Peter is first when entering upper room after our Lord's ascension. The first Eucharist and Pentecost were given in this room.
Acts 1:15 - Peter initiates the selection of a successor to Judas right after Jesus ascended into heaven, and no one questions him. Further, if the Church needed a successor to Judas, wouldn't it need one to Peter? Of course.
Acts 2:14 - Peter is first to speak for the apostles after the Holy Spirit descended upon them at Pentecost. Peter is the first to preach the Gospel.
Acts 2:38 - Peter gives first preaching in the early Church on repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.
Acts 3:1,3,4 - Peter is mentioned first as going to the Temple to pray.
Acts 3:6-7 - Peter works the first healing of the apostles.
Acts 3:12-26, 4:8-12 - Peter teaches the early Church the healing through Jesus and that there is no salvation other than Christ.
Acts 5:3 - Peter declares the first anathema of Ananias and Sapphira which is ratified by God, and brings about their death. Peter exercises his binding authority.
Acts 5:15 - Peter's shadow has healing power. No other apostle is said to have this power.
Acts 8:14 - Peter is mentioned first in conferring the sacrament of confirmation.
Acts 8:20-23 - Peter casts judgment on Simon's quest for gaining authority through the laying on of hands. Peter exercises his binding and loosing authority.
Acts 9:32-34 - Peter is mentioned first among the apostles and works the healing of Aeneas.
Acts 9:38-40 - Peter is mentioned first among the apostles and raises Tabitha from the dead.
Acts 10:5 - Cornelius is told by an angel to call upon Peter. Angels are messengers of God. Peter was granted this divine vision.
Acts 10:34-48, 11:1-18 - Peter is first to teach about salvation for all (Jews and Gentiles).
Acts 12:5 - this verse implies that the "whole Church" offered "earnest prayers" for Peter, their leader, during his imprisonment.
Acts 12:6-11 - Peter is freed from jail by an angel. He is the first object of divine intervention in the early Church.
Acts 15:7-12 - Peter resolves the first doctrinal issue on circumcision at the Church's first council at Jerusalem, and no one questions him. After Peter the Papa spoke, all were kept silent.
Acts 15:12 - only after Peter (the Pope) speaks do Paul and Barnabas (bishops) speak in support of Peter's definitive teaching.
Acts 15:13-14 - then James speaks to further acknowledge Peter's definitive teaching. "Simeon (Peter) has related how God first visited..."
Rom. 15:20 - Paul says he doesn't want to build on "another man's foundation" referring to Peter, who built the Church in Rome.
1 Cor. 9:5 – Peter is distinguished from the rest of the apostles and brethren of the Lord.
1 Cor. 15:4-8 - Paul distinguishes Jesus' post-resurrection appearances to Peter from those of the other apostles. Christ appeared “to Cephas, then to the twelve.”
Gal.1:18 - Paul spends fifteen days with Peter privately before beginning his ministry, even after Christ's Revelation to Paul.
1 Peter 5:1 - Peter acts as the chief bishop by "exhorting" all the other bishops and elders of the Church.
1 Peter 5:13 - Some Protestants argue against the Papacy by trying to prove Peter was never in Rome. First, this argument is irrelevant to whether Jesus instituted the Papacy. Secondly, this verse demonstrates that Peter was in fact in Rome. Peter writes from "Babylon" which was a code name for Rome during these days of persecution. See, for example, Rev. 14:8, 16:19, 17:5, 18:2,10,21, which show that "Babylon" meant Rome. Rome was the "great city" of the New Testament period. Because Rome during this age was considered the center of the world, the Lord wanted His Church to be established in Rome.
2 Peter 1:14 - Peter writes about Jesus' prediction of Peter's death, embracing the eventual martyrdom that he would suffer.
2 Peter 3:16 - Peter is making a judgment on the proper interpretation of Paul's letters. Peter is the chief shepherd of the flock.
Matt. 23:11; Mark 9:35; 10:44 - yet Peter, as the first, humbled himself to be the last and servant of all servants.


Here’s the list of popes from St. Peter to present day:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm

1. St. Peter (32-67)
2. St. Linus (67-76)
3. St. Anacletus (76-88)

23. St. Stephen (254-257)

64. St. Gregory the Great (590-604)

88. Constantine (708-815)

265. John Paul II (1978-2005)
266. Benedict 16 (2005- present)

[homersodyssey]

TB Accusation #2: “but the reality is the symbol chosen to display in the center of pete's square is a phallic symbol”

I’ve explained what the St. Peter’s Square obelisk is all about twice now. If all obelisks are phallic symbols then do you the acknowledge Washington Monument, Bunker Hill Memorial, and all the cemeteries that display them as pagan too? And if so, what rituals or ceremonies do you believe occur around them? Do these monuments make America pagen?


TB Accusation # 3: “supposedly to represent Peter, the head of the RCC.”

No, St. Peter was the first pope, not the head of the Church. It’s like a shepherd tending the flock for the land owner. George Washington was the first president, but he isn't America herself.


TB Accusation #4: “The focus of the RCC appears then, to be a dead man, not the living God.”

Why? Because St. Peter’s Square is named after the first pope? Can’t we recognize great leaders and defenders of the faith? Does the name “Lincoln Avenue School” detract from the principles of America?


TB Accusation #5: “You claim to follow Jesus, yet appeal to the words of the pope as your source of truth.”

Not at all. God is the only Truth.

2465. The Old Testament attests that God is the source of all truth. His Word is truth. His Law is truth. His faithfulness endures to all generations. Since God is true, the members of his people are called to live in the truth.

2466. In Jesus Christ, the whole of God’s truth has been mad manifest. Full of grace and truth, he came as the light of the world, he is the truth. Whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. The disciple of Jesus continues in his word so as to know the truth that will make you free and that sanctifies. To follow Jesus is to live in the Spirit of Truth, whom the Father sends in his name and who leads into all the truth. To his disciples Jesus teaches the unconditional love of truth: Let what you say be simply Yes or No.
Catechism of the Catholic Church
(many scriptural reference in here, please check them out for yourself: http://www.catholicity.com/catechism/

[homersodyssey]

Homer has a username depictive of Pagan gods (don't get me wrong, I love the stories of The Odyssey). Homer is focusing on and magnifying every point of the RCC that is opposed by those who understand these things were derived from the Roman Empire's Pagan beliefs. And now, homer has allied himself with syssy, who has always posted anti-Catholic information, is anti-trinitarian and supports all religions be bannished.

C'mon, we've been had:o......and well done if I must have to admit:cool:

Has this what it's come down to for you Robo? Tying my avatar to your accusations in desperation? If that's true than can you explain your humanizing a mechanical robot in your avatar? Is that robot actually you, like the Tin Man in the Wizard of Oz?

Sysint and I will most likely agree to disagree on our eventual Trinity debate. We are not allied in any regard. However it seems we are able to interact without insults, name calling or unsubstantiated accusations. You should find the heart to give it a try.

You make this too easy.

[bootlen]

TB Accusation #1 “You claim Jesus is the head of the RCC”

Actually, I don’t claim Jesus is the head of the Catholic Church, it is a fact.

Jesus IS indeed head of the catholic church. But not in the sense to which Catholics refer Him to be. The RCC is not the catholic church. The body of ALL believers is the catholic church. The RCC (I'm talking leadership here...not general membership) is a SELF-appointed body of SELF-righteous men who seek control over the masses.

- 669. As Lord, Christ is also head of the Church, which is his Body. Taken up to heaven and glorified after he had thus fully accomplished his mission, Christ dwells on earth in his Church. The redemption is the source of the authority that Christ, by virtue of the Holy Spirit, exercises over the Church. The Kingdom of Christ is already present in mystery on earth the seed and the beginning of the kingdom.
- 792. Christ is the head of the body, the Church. He is the principle of creation and redemption. Raised to the Father’s glory, “in everything he is preeminent, especially in the Church, through whom he extends his reign over all things.”
Catechism of the Catholic Church

No problem with the context but I see no Scripture. Just Catholic stuff.

Mathew 16: 13-21
When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” They replied, “Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets. He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” [B]Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Uh, yeah. About those little words, Peter and rock. Same root but different meanings. The building of the church was not on Peter, the man, but on man's faith that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of the Living God. Way different, homer. WAY different.

John 21: 15-20
When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of Jonah, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” He then said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord you know everything; you know that I love you, when you were younger, you used to dress yourself and go where you wanted; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.” He said this signifying by what kind of death he would glorify God. And when he had said this, he said to him, “Follow me.”

Said the same "Follow Me" to John, James, and Andrew. Just earlier in His ministry.

Here are more scriptural references:

Matt. to Rev. - Peter is mentioned 155 times and the rest of apostles combined are only mentioned 130 times.

And money (financial matters) is mentioned more than any other issue in Scripture. Yet, "the love of money is the root of all evil." From that, I would assume Peter had some problems that needed to be addressed more than the rest of the Apostles. You know, Andrew is know as the quiet Apostle...likely because he was Peter's brother. Peter was impetuous...shooting from the hip and always mouthy. And he denied Christ 3 times in His last 18 hours of life. Of course, once he received the Holy Spirit, his spiritual maturity grew in leaps and bounds but he was no different from the other Apostles.

Peter is also always listed first except in 1 Cor. 3:22 and Gal. 2:9 (which are obvious exceptions to the rule).
Matt. 10:2; Mark 1:36; 3:16; Luke 6:14-16; Acts 1:3; 2:37; 5:29 - these are some of many examples where Peter is mentioned first among the apostles.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with anything. "He who would be first on earth shall be last in eternity."

Matt. 14:28-29 - only Peter has the faith to walk on water. No other man in Scripture is said to have the faith to walk on water. This faith ultimately did not fail.

Ultimately, true but only after Christ had ascended and Peter was filled with the H.S....just like everybody else at Pentecost. Remember, Peter took his eyes off Jesus on that lake and almost drowned. That was Peter's way.

Matt. 16:16, Mark 8:29; John 6:69 - Peter is first among the apostles to confess the divinity of Christ.

Well somebody had to be first. Ya gotta figure that would be Peter, the Mouth. No disrespect meant to Peter but, again, he was no different from the others.

Matt. 16:17 - Peter alone is told he has received divine knowledge by a special revelation from God the Father.

I see no indication in Scripture that Peter was the only one to receive that particular divine revelation. Fact is, I see the exact opposite. EVERYBODY receives divine knowledge by teaching of the H.S. That is replete throughout the NT.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus builds the Church only on Peter, the rock, with the other apostles as the foundation and Jesus as the Head.

You're starting to repeat yourself. Torted and retorted. See my third retort.

Matt. 16:19 - only Peter receives the keys, which represent authority over the Church and facilitate dynastic succession to his authority.

What exactly are those "keys", Homer. Using Scripture only please. Scripture is ALL I believe.

Matt. 17:24-25 - the tax collector approaches Peter for Jesus' tax. Peter is the spokesman for Jesus. He is the Vicar of Christ. From teh passage, it looks to me like Jesus was teaching inside, Peter was outside. Everybody knew who Jesus followers were and Peter being Peter was likely looked upon as the 2nd in charge of the group, although he was not. He was just the most vociferous. But you see, when Peter said "Yes" that Jesus DOES pay taxes, the collector went into the house where he spoke directly to Jesus.

Matt. 17:26-27 - Jesus pays the half-shekel tax with one shekel, for both Jesus and Peter. Peter is Christ's representative on earth.

Umm, it's not really that complicated. More like Christ paying all our debts with His one act of self-sacrifice. See, it's stuff like this that makes TB and Robo make accusations against the RCC taking the focus off Christ and putting it on the "Pope". Fact is, there is only ONE Pope for ALL of eternity. His name is Jesus. All believers are priests: "...for you are members of a royal priesthood..." Pontiff comes from the same root word as pontoon...bridge. Christ is the Bridge that spans the bottomless chasm caused by sin and giving us access to God the Father. "No one comes to the Father but by Me."

Matt. 18:21 - in the presence of the disciples, Peter asks Jesus about the rule of forgiveness. One of many examples where Peter takes a leadership role among the apostles in understanding Jesus' teachings.

Again, the Mouth. It was his personality. Plus he did not know without questioning. Besides, you can be a leader without being the pope. There is, frankly, no connection...and certainly not in Scripture.

Matt. 19:27 - Peter speaks on behalf of the apostles by telling Jesus that they have left everything to follow Him.
Mark 10:28 - here also, Peter speaks on behalf of the disciples by declaring that they have left everything to follow Him.
Mark 11:21 - Peter speaks on behalf of the disciples in remembering Jesus' curse on the fig tree.

Still, the Mouth. Make the connection between Peter's lack of spiritual maturity and braggadocio. He continues to show lack of spiritual maturity right up to pentecost.


Mark 14:37 - at Gethsemane, Jesus asks Peter, and no one else, why he was asleep. Peter is accountable to Jesus for his actions on behalf of the apostles because he has been appointed by Jesus as their leader.

And where in Scripture was he appointed leader? It ain't there.

Mark 16:7 - Peter is specified by an angel as the leader of the apostles as the angel confirms the resurrection of Christ.

All the angel confirmed was that Jesus had risen just as He said. I would suspect that Peter's name was mentioned because of Peter's encounter with Jesus at the trial. Peter was likely feeling pretty bad about himself at that point. Also, at that point, Peter and the other 10 were not Apostles. They were DISCIPLES. So that COULD mean that Peter was not a disciple. But i won't play that game with you. I've already said what I believe. maybe TB has some insight into that.

Luke 5:3 – Jesus teaches from Peter’s boat which is metaphor for the Church. Jesus guides Peter and the Church into all truth.

Who else had a boat? Nobody. The other guys worked their dad's boat.

Luke 5:4,10 - Jesus instructs Peter to let down the nets for a catch, and the miraculous catch follows. Peter, the Pope, is the "fisher of men."

Uh, I think your friends are reading something into that that ain't there.

Luke 7:40-50- Jesus addresses Peter regarding the rule of forgiveness and Peter answers on behalf of the disciples. Jesus also singles Peter out and judges his conduct vis-à-vis the conduct of the woman who anointed Him.
Luke 8:45 - when Jesus asked who touched His garment, it is Peter who answers on behalf of the disciples.

Still, the Mouth.

Luke 8:51; 9:28; 22:8; Acts 1:13; 3:1,3,11; 4:13,19; 8:14 - Peter is always mentioned before John, the disciple whom Jesus loved.
Luke 9:28;33 - Peter is mentioned first as going to mountain of transfiguration and the only one to speak at the transfiguration.
Luke 12:41 - Peter seeks clarification of a parable on behalf on the disciples. This is part of Peter's formation as the chief shepherd of the flock after Jesus ascended into heaven.
Luke 22:31-32 - Jesus prays for Peter alone, that his faith may not fail, and charges him to strengthen the rest of the apostles.

Peter was part of the "inner circle", the closest to Jesus. He was also the most vocal. "Squeaky wheel gets the grease."

Luke 24:12, John 20:4-6 - John arrived at the tomb first but stopped and waited for Peter. Peter then arrived and entered the tomb first.

Why would John run ahead, then wait? He wasn't waiting in deference to Peter, I assure you. (James and John asked Jesus to be seated nearest Christ in Heaven. I'd think they would have expected one of those seatrs to be Peters idf i go by your reasoning.) John was much more cautious than Peter. Remember, Christ's tomb had been under Roman guard up till not too long before they got there. I'm sure John's thoughts were of the possibility of being accused of breaking some Roman law. Peter, on the other hand...well, you know how Peter is.

Luke 24:34 - the two disciples distinguish Peter even though they both had seen the risen Jesus the previous hour. See Luke 24:33.

Just establishing a witness. Nothing more.

John 6:68 - after the disciples leave, Peter is the first to speak and confess his belief in Christ after the Eucharistic discourse.

Naturally.

John 13:6-9 - Peter speaks out to the Lord in front of the apostles concerning the washing of feet.

Of course.

John 13:36; 21:18 - Jesus predicts Peter's death. Peter was martyred at Rome in 67 A.D. Several hundred years of papal successors were also martyred.

So?

John 21:2-3,11 - Peter leads the fishing and his net does not break. The boat (the "barque of Peter") is a metaphor for the Church.

Well, it WAS HIS boat, no?

[bootlen]

John 21:7 - only Peter got out of the boat and ran to the shore to meet Jesus. Peter is the earthly shepherd leading us to God.

No. That was, once again, impetuous Peter. And remember, the last time Peter saw Jesus, it was at His trial. I beleive I'd have bailed and swam to Him, too. But I'd never make t as a Pope. I believe Scripture too much.

John 21:15 - in front of the apostles, Jesus asks Peter if he loves Jesus "more than these," which refers to the other apostles. Peter is the head of the apostolic see.
John 21:15-17 - Jesus charges Peter to "feed my lambs," "tend my sheep," "feed my sheep." Sheep means all people, even the apostles.
Acts 1:13 - Peter is first when entering upper room after our Lord's ascension. The first Eucharist and Pentecost were given in this room.
Acts 1:15 - Peter initiates the selection of a successor to Judas right after Jesus ascended into heaven, and no one questions him. Further, if the Church needed a successor to Judas, wouldn't it need one to Peter? Of course.
Acts 2:14 - Peter is first to speak for the apostles after the Holy Spirit descended upon them at Pentecost. Peter is the first to preach the Gospel.
Acts 2:38 - Peter gives first preaching in the early Church on repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.
Acts 3:1,3,4 - Peter is mentioned first as going to the Temple to pray.
Acts 3:6-7 - Peter works the first healing of the apostles.
Acts 3:12-26, 4:8-12 - Peter teaches the early Church the healing through Jesus and that there is no salvation other than Christ.
Acts 5:3 - Peter declares the first anathema of Ananias and Sapphira which is ratified by God, and brings about their death. Peter exercises his binding authority.
Acts 5:15 - Peter's shadow has healing power. No other apostle is said to have this power.
Acts 8:14 - Peter is mentioned first in conferring the sacrament of confirmation.
Acts 8:20-23 - Peter casts judgment on Simon's quest for gaining authority through the laying on of hands. Peter exercises his binding and loosing authority.
Acts 9:32-34 - Peter is mentioned first among the apostles and works the healing of Aeneas.
Acts 9:38-40 - Peter is mentioned first among the apostles and raises Tabitha from the dead.
Acts 10:5 - Cornelius is told by an angel to call upon Peter. Angels are messengers of God. Peter was granted this divine vision.
Acts 10:34-48, 11:1-18 - Peter is first to teach about salvation for all (Jews and Gentiles).
Acts 12:5 - this verse implies that the "whole Church" offered "earnest prayers" for Peter, their leader, during his imprisonment.
Acts 12:6-11 - Peter is freed from jail by an angel. He is the first object of divine intervention in the early Church.
Acts 15:7-12 - Peter resolves the first doctrinal issue on circumcision at the Church's first council at Jerusalem, and no one questions him. After Peter the Papa spoke, all were kept silent.
Acts 15:12 - only after Peter (the Pope) speaks do Paul and Barnabas (bishops) speak in support of Peter's definitive teaching.
Acts 15:13-14 - then James speaks to further acknowledge Peter's definitive teaching. "Simeon (Peter) has related how God first visited..."
Rom. 15:20 - Paul says he doesn't want to build on "another man's foundation" referring to Peter, who built the Church in Rome.
1 Cor. 9:5 – Peter is distinguished from the rest of the apostles and brethren of the Lord.
1 Cor. 15:4-8 - Paul distinguishes Jesus' post-resurrection appearances to Peter from those of the other apostles. Christ appeared “to Cephas, then to the twelve.”
Gal.1:18 - Paul spends fifteen days with Peter privately before beginning his ministry, even after Christ's Revelation to Paul.
1 Peter 5:1 - Peter acts as the chief bishop by "exhorting" all the other bishops and elders of the Church.
1 Peter 5:13 - Some Protestants argue against the Papacy by trying to prove Peter was never in Rome. First, this argument is irrelevant to whether Jesus instituted the Papacy. Secondly, this verse demonstrates that Peter was in fact in Rome. Peter writes from "Babylon" which was a code name for Rome during these days of persecution. See, for example, Rev. 14:8, 16:19, 17:5, 18:2,10,21, which show that "Babylon" meant Rome. Rome was the "great city" of the New Testament period. Because Rome during this age was considered the center of the world, the Lord wanted His Church to be established in Rome.
2 Peter 1:14 - Peter writes about Jesus' prediction of Peter's death, embracing the eventual martyrdom that he would suffer.
2 Peter 3:16 - Peter is making a judgment on the proper interpretation of Paul's letters. Peter is the chief shepherd of the flock.
Matt. 23:11; Mark 9:35; 10:44 - yet Peter, as the first, humbled himself to be the last and servant of all servants.

Ye Gads, Homer. Yer wearing me out. Not down...just out. This is an impressive list but is it C&P'ed?

I can go on and on, I'm pretty sure, to discredit INTERPRETATION of Peter being the first Pope. You have not presented any Scriptural proof of you premise, at least up to the points to which I have retorted.

If you insist, I will finish but I gotta take a break. I did read over them and already can retort but my keyboard is beginning to smoke and my fingers hurt. You better not have C&P'ed that stuff...I'm gonna be ticked if you did. If it ain't from your own heart, you are only repeating what others have said. That means ZIP to me.

Heck I just found out I ran out of space and had to C&P some of it for this post. We're wearing out the forum, too.

[RoBoTeq]

Well, that is to be seen. I just want a "line item : Scripture address" format. No commentary. No opinion (the only one that matters is God's). I think Homer understands what Im looking for.

I am a Scripture interprets Scripture kinda person so the "fire" will be hot enough to burn away false doctrine. But, let me remind you of your own words, Robo. "Keep an open mind." I happen to agree with you and TB on the RCC issues but talking about them using the Canon of Scripture will shed light and sharpen swords. Surely you don't have a problem with that.;)
Me have a problem? My mind is open my brains keep leaking out:(

[homersodyssey]

Boot,

This is wearing me out too. Of course I'm cutting and pasting along with typing. I'm stating to feel guilty about the quotes on my desk that are sitting idle while I divert time to this cause. I have to call it a night, but I'll finish TB's list tomorrow (hopefully).

Anyway, you asked me to provide scriptural support and I have. You can disagree with the interpretations as your perogative, but the challenge was to back up Catholic beliefs with the Good Book. Clearly I've done that by no creative means, just taking what is already available and putting it forth. No paganism here my friend.

That reminds me. The chief pagan interrogator has yet to divulge his religious afflilation. The secret remains hidden...

[glennac]

I think we need to have a new rule here on ARP to see who can quote the most scriptures pertinent to the discussion and they will be declared the winner of the debate what ever it is at the time.:) I have a hard time just keeping up with a little news everyday and working much less memorizing the Bible. More power to you all, have at it.:eek::)

[BigJon3475]

If you are an atheist what type of background did you grow up in? Poverty stricken? middle class? upper class? barely educated? well educated?

I think you will see a trend of people who "believe" and who don't. Do you really want to take away the one thing people in the most dire of situations have that makes them feel good and gives them purpose? Is "It's not about you" really that offensive that you need to "make people believe"? There is a reason why the people with the strongest faith throughout history have been the poor, weak, needy, poverty stricken...etc. But it's very much like humans once they "movinonup to the east side" to abandon past practices and in some cases even try and forget that past by trying to destroy religion in others eyes.

A woman huddling down hiding from genocide in the Congo is praying to god for help. Would you walk up to her and start talking about how wrong it is? How about someone sitting on a bench reading the bible? If you would or wouldn't depending on the situation what is the difference to you?

[RoBoTeq]

That reminds me. The chief pagan interrogator has yet to divulge his religious afflilation. The secret remains hidden...
If this is in reference to me, no one has ever asked this of me. My life is a complete open book, no secrets here. I was raised loosely as a Methodist, which was the denomination I left when I stopped belieiving in God. In my early teens I fought Christianity to the point of becoming a Satanist, not for a faith in Satan but to irritate those I was opposing.

During my relatively short time worshipping Satan, I realized that Satan was indeed real. With every gift I asked for and received from Satan, I could feel Satan's demons infecting me. With a little help from a local gypsy woman who scared the hell out of me, literally, and with the intervention of what I will now and forever will always believe to have been Jesus of an Angel of God filling me with the Holy Spirit so I could understand enough to believe, I was Saved from Satan.

After my Salvation from Satan, I truly believed that since Satan had shown himself to me to be very real, then God must also be real and I must turn to God to get rid of the demons that had infected me body and soul. Still, I was convinced that Jesus was a charleten who was either a liar or evil incarnate, and I set out to prove my belief with Bible study. I used every type of Bible I could afford to buy along with archeaology books on Biblical events and persons and entomological translations of Hebrew, Aramaic and ancient Greek.

I was about 22 when my research to prove Jesus was a fake or evil when I came to the conciense realization that "Jesus is who He claims to be"; that was my moment of spiritual birth, I was born again in Jesus Christ.

Through my studies I realized that it was not God or God in Jesus that I had a problem with but religion. I had had several encounters with Catholic priests with work that I did on Catholic churches. While some of the priests I struck up conversations with were pretty much the pompous asses I use to criticize the RCC, some of the best theologins I have encountered were also Catholic priests. I was especially impressed at the amount of formal education in psychology that priests have that a good priest will use to enhance the faith experience.

Mostly though, I have not found any organized religion that I don't feel has compromized faith for religiosity. Then again, I have also found sound doctrine in some aspects or another in every denomination.

Anything else anyone want to know about my theology?

[RoBoTeq]

If you are an atheist what type of background did you grow up in? Poverty stricken? middle class? upper class? barely educated? well educated?

I think you will see a trend of people who "believe" and who don't. Do you really want to take away the one thing people in the most dire of situations have that makes them feel good and gives them purpose? Is "It's not about you" really that offensive that you need to "make people believe"? There is a reason why the people with the strongest faith throughout history have been the poor, weak, needy, poverty stricken...etc. But it's very much like humans once they "movinonup to the east side" to abandon past practices and in some cases even try and forget that past by trying to destroy religion in others eyes.

A woman huddling down hiding from genocide in the Congo is praying to god for help. Would you walk up to her and start talking about how wrong it is? How about someone sitting on a bench reading the bible? If you would or wouldn't depending on the situation what is the difference to you?
I see no truth in your claim that those of faith are poor, weak, needy, poverty stricken (redundant) etc. Wealthy people and powerful people die unhappy every day. What we gain in our mortal lives is only for while we live our mortal lives. Nothing we gain of a physical nature has any meaning in the end. Everything is meaningless, utterly meaningless.

If a person dies a mortal death happy in their faith, they win.

[arc8]

Actually, I don’t claim Jesus is the head of the Catholic Church, it is a fact.

- 669. As Lord, Christ is also head of the Church, which is his Body. Taken up to heaven and glorified after he had thus fully accomplished his mission, Christ dwells on earth in his Church. The redemption is the source of the authority that Christ, by virtue of the Holy Spirit, exercises over the Church. The Kingdom of Christ is already present in mystery on earth the seed and the beginning of the kingdom.


Yes, Jesus Christ is the Head of His Church!
Yes, the Church has a body, like you and me (a visible body that casted a shadow); not a universal church nor an invisible church.
Actually The Lord abides in heaven and the Holy Spirit abides with us.
Yes the Kingdom of God/Heaven includes all saved persons on earth at the present time. But, not all that abide in the Kingdom of God/Heaven is in a church or a member of a church!
The Family of God are all saved folks from past to the last one!
A member of a Church is a saved and baptized person.
The bride is a member of the Church that Jesus built and is a faithful servant!




Mathew 16: 13-21
When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” They replied, “Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets. He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.


How about verse :20
Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
Have you ever heard the saying "Jesus is the Rock, but Peter is the pebble? Check out the Greek meanings.
Actually Jesus was asking and talking to his disciples not just Peter. Have you ever heard that Peter was impetuous!

Check this verse: Mt. 16:22-23
Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offense unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. And this was a straight talk to Peter not all the disciples.(this is extra)



John 21: 15-20
When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of Jonah, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” He then said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord you know everything; you know that I love you, when you were younger, you used to dress yourself and go where you wanted; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.” He said this signifying by what kind of death he would glorify God. And when he had said this, he said to him, “Follow me.”


Remember the denial of Peter! i believe these sayings were said because of Peter's denial. He denied the Lord Three times; the Lord asked Peter Three times if he loved him!




Matt. to Rev. - Peter is mentioned 155 times and the rest of apostles combined are only mentioned 130 times. Peter is also always listed first except in 1 Cor. 3:22 and Gal. 2:9 (which are obvious exceptions to the rule).

So what!
This does not make a doctrine!



Matt. 10:2; Mark 1:36; 3:16; Luke 6:14-16; Acts 1:3; 2:37; 5:29 - these are some of many examples where Peter is mentioned first among the apostles.
Matt. 14:28-29 - only Peter has the faith to walk on water. No other man in Scripture is said to have the faith to walk on water. This faith ultimately did not fail.
Matt. 16:16, Mark 8:29; John 6:69 - Peter is first among the apostles to confess the divinity of Christ.


Peter was a prominant person of the Apostles.




Matt. 16:17 - Peter alone is told he has received divine knowledge by a special revelation from God the Father.
Matt. 16:18 - Jesus builds the Church only on Peter, the rock, with the other apostles as the foundation and Jesus as the Head.
Matt. 16:19 - only Peter receives the keys, which represent authority over the Church and facilitate dynastic succession to his authority.


Not true! the other Apostles were there as well! The Lord was speaking to them as well.
Yes, Peter did speak up first and loud many times; but please don't give him honour when it is not due! He sins just like us; a mere mortal not more a vicar of Christ than any Godly person who represents Christ.
Check rock in the greek context; you will note Christ the Rock(massive) and Peter(a pebble).
Authority: check the commission of Christ. It was given to the Church not men. The apostles will eventually die, but the Church will continue to go!




Peter was martyred at Rome in 67 A.D. Several hundred years of papal successors were also martyred.

Name a few and I bet they are probably true believers!



Acts 1:13 - Peter is first when entering upper room after our Lord's ascension. The first Eucharist and Pentecost were given in this room.


I don't know about anyone else, but eucharist is never, ever mentioned in the Holy Book of God!
Actually, in this room, a eucharist and pentecost never happened, at least it was not recorded.




Acts 1:15 - Peter initiates the selection of a successor to Judas right after Jesus ascended into heaven, and no one questions him. Further, if the Church needed a successor to Judas, wouldn't it need one to Peter? Of course.


Hogwash!
This was a church meeting! They were electing another Apostle that was with them at the beginning; since John's baptism.
Peter was the spoke person; they did things in order.




Acts 2:14 - Peter is first to speak for the apostles after the Holy Spirit descended upon them at Pentecost. Peter is the first to preach the Gospel.
Acts 2:38 - Peter gives first preaching in the early Church on repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.
Acts 3:1,3,4 - Peter is mentioned first as going to the Temple to pray.
Acts 3:6-7 - Peter works the first healing of the apostles.
Acts 3:12-26, 4:8-12 - Peter teaches the early Church the healing through Jesus and that there is no salvation other than Christ.


Jesus Christ is the First and Lord; all men must decrease.

[TB]

Now's when the real fun begins, right boot? As we dig into the word, Homer, were going to have to apply the correct scriptural understanding to what is being said. There's a big difference between exogisis, and isogesis.




I'll be back. :D (late night tonight.)

[TB]

First off, Homer, unless you can supply evidence showing that the RC Catechism should be a valid authority to appeal to for the support of doctrine, it will be considered meaningless. After all, if it says the same thing as the Bible, then only using the Bible is sufficient, since that is the authority we can both agree on.

[jmac00]

If a person dies a mortal death happy in their faith, they win.


I win ;)

although I don't read and interpret the bible and scripture (which I don't believe is necessary), I still have faith and I believe in Gods basic message,of Love All

[bootlen]

Boot,

This is wearing me out too. Of course I'm cutting and pasting along with typing. Anyway, you asked me to provide scriptural support and I have. You can disagree with the interpretations as your perogative, but the challenge was to back up Catholic beliefs with the Good Book. Clearly I've done that by no creative means, just taking what is already available and putting it forth. No paganism here my friend.

Okay, here is the very crux of the matter as to RCC membership. Everybody believes what they have been told to believe. The personal relationship with Christ can never be found in someone believing about Jesus what they have been told to believe. Each of us has to dig into Scripture and discover for ourselves exactly who Jesus Christ is before we can have a personal understanding about Him and resulting personal relationship.

I assume you are married. Did you marry your beloved because of what someone told you about her? Or did you get to know her before popping the question? Our relationship in marriage is supposed to be a picture of our relationship with Christ. (The church is His bride, Scripturally speaking.)
At any rate, I bet you reached out to know her...what she likes, dislikes...her favorite things to do...her hopes and dreams for the future. In other words, you courted her. THEN through that, your relationship grew. Am I painting a fairly accurate picture here of the growth of your relationship with your wife? Then you consummate the marriage and there are even more things to discover about her...not just physically but spiritually, emotionally, and mentally. As you know her more, you come to love her more. And the growth of your relationship has nothing to do with what you have been told about her but what you yourself have discovered. It's VERY personal.

It's not a lot different with our relationship with Christ. It's VERY personal. And that is by His design. The relationship is based on growing faith. And Scripture says, "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God." In other words, study of Scripture is the key to building that relationship. Not believing what someone says about Scripture...what you yourself have discovered through personal study and scrutiny. Of course, prayer is also vital. As you know, prayer is nothing more than conversation with God. Just like conversing with the wife. Except God understands you better.;) Because He knows your very heart...your innermost being...he fully understands you.

That being said, I really don't give a rip what others say about Scripture. My question is to YOU. What do YOU believe in your heart of hearts? And what is the Scripture that backs up YOUR beliefs?

Do ya see what I'm asking?

[homersodyssey]

Okay, here is the very crux of the matter as to RCC membership. Everybody believes what they have been told to believe. The personal relationship with Christ can never be found in someone believing about Jesus what they have been told to believe. Each of us has to dig into Scripture and discover for ourselves exactly who Jesus Christ is before we can have a personal understanding about Him and resulting personal relationship.

... It's VERY personal.

... And what is the Scripture that backs up YOUR beliefs?

Do ya see what I'm asking?


If the relationship with Christ is personal...VERY personal, then how can you claim to know what mine is?

If we're not suppose to believe what others tell us to believe, then why are you telling me what to believe?

Just because my beliefs are shared by millions of other people over centuries doesn't make them wrong.

------------------------------------------------------

I spent a lot of time last night responding to TB's challenge to back up Catholic beliefs with scripture. After posting responses to the first ones I get a reply dismissing them as wrongly interpreted. Is there any point in continuing?

The challenge was to provide scripture to support a lengthy list of accusations. I did that. Point Homer. Now, I'm not telling you to believe them, join the Church, steal third, or anything you don't want to do. But don't issue a challenge and then make it into something else when it's answered.

I don't come on this forum to attack any one's Christian beliefs. But I also find it hard to ignore blatant bigoted attacks on my faith. It's even more frustrating when these attacks aren't supported or debated in proper established guidelines. Robo calls me a pagan, I prove him wrong, he just ignores it or waits a day and does it again. Kinda like what sysint is doing with the Modalist accusations. Is this a proper way to life in Christ, or even be an adult?

Here's another way of looking at it. Personally, I find most libertarian philosophy a little too right wing for my tastes. Does that mean they aren't my countrymen? Are they communists just because somebody calls them so? Do I have to challenge their core beliefs anytime a political discussion takes place? Do I obsess about them and bring their philosophies into question in totally separate topics?

If I were to get into a discussion with someone today about the Trinity and I repeat something you or Robo or TB said to make a point, does that make it wrong? Am I now not thinking for myself? Am I worshipping you and not Christ? This is all organized religion is, a common, established means of worshipping God.

Perhaps Catholics do misinterpret scripture. I'll give you that for the sake of argument. However, they are still reading scripture, believing in Christ, trying to follow His ways in their daily life, spiritual life, and religious practices. You may not like them, want to join them, but calling them anti-Christian, pagan, devil worshippers or whatever else is not just wrong, it's flawed logic.

-------------------------------------------------

Boot, you asked for my beliefs and I gladly share them as I feel a kinship with you as a fellow Christian. Here's an idea of how I practice my faith.

Last night I shut the computer off and read a few pages of: Jesus of Nazareth.

Then I read a chapter from: The Imitation of Christ

Then I said my bedtime prayers: Our Father, Fatima Prayer, a prayer to the Holy Spirit, Glory Be, and a Hail Mary (which you should know is merely a petition to Mary asking her to pray to God for us).

Then this morning I awoke and said the Jesus Master prayer and read Psalm 130 (my Friday morning routine prayers).

Now, usually I would then read the Church's directed scripture readings for the day found in the Missal. If you're interested, they are 1 John 5:5-13, parts of the 147 psalm, and Luke 5: 12-16. I would usually then try to keep those readings in my mind throughout my day.

However, after fending off some weak pagan accusation made by Robo or someone else that required me to dig into The Liturgy of the Hours, I've been trying to practice that devotion again. It's not easy as it calls for prayer five times a day. This morning's readings are Isaih 65: 13-25, Revelation 21: 1,3,4followed by a sermon by Saint Maximus of Turin on the mystery of the Lord's baptism.

-------------------------------------

Do you see what I'm getting at? You can dislike the Catholic Church, organized religion in general, but please come to the simple conclusion that you don't own Christianity. Your beliefs and practices are just that - yours. I have mine, love them, and would be a rudderless ship without them.

Anyway, my apologies for such a long rant. It's just frustrating dealing with fellow Christians that assume because someone practices differently they must therefore be wrong. TB, can we just agree to disagree over certain beliefs and practices and move on, or would you like me to complete your list?

[homersodyssey]

By the way, I didn't share my personal prayer routine in order to try and prove myself more devout or pious than anyone else. I'm very humble in my faith and consider myself very lucky to have Chist in my life. The point is to show how one typical Catholic goes about his day. You'll notice there aren't any ritual dances to Saturn, or Baal, nor witchcraft ceremonies, voodoo, or magic/magik. The Catholic Church is a means of worshipping Christ, a vehicle, a guide along the journey home to Him.

[homersodyssey]

If this is in reference to me, no one has ever asked this of me.

That's a touching story and I'm glad you found Christ.

But you still haven't answered the question that's been put forth many times. You keep insisting sysint declares a religious affiliation but you have yet to do the same.

If Satan is the great deceiver and you were once in his charge, perhaps he's still tricking you and who you think is Christ is really him. Kinda like the Matrix. Next time, take the red pill. If not, then using Christ as a divider of men is surely not His intent which suggests you are doing the devil's work.

[acmanko]

He was making a joke, Arc8. I fell for it, too, till the 6th obviously looney reference. Ignore him. (No, he won't go away but it will save bandwidth.) here is the link that I copy and pasted from. allthough you know everything and will surely go to heaven, I thought you asked Homer for something such as this. BTW what are the credentials of the members who set your Church Doctrine?

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html

[bootlen]

If the relationship with Christ is personal...VERY personal, then how can you claim to know what mine is?

I don't. That's why I'm asking YOUR views...not what you have already said yourself is someone else's views.

If we're not suppose to believe what others tell us to believe, then why are you telling me what to believe?

I'm NOT telling you what to believe. Just to go to the Source of what you claim you believe.

Just because my beliefs are shared by millions of other people over centuries doesn't make them wrong.

Agreed...unless those millions are wrong, too.

------------------------------------------------------

I spent a lot of time last night responding to TB's challenge to back up Catholic beliefs with scripture. After posting responses to the first ones I get a reply dismissing them as wrongly interpreted. Is there any point in continuing?

You didn't post what YOU believe. You posted thoughts by 2 other guys. Now if you believe what they believe, please post in your own words.

The challenge was to provide scripture to support a lengthy list of accusations. I did that. Point Homer. Now, I'm not telling you to believe them, join the Church, steal third, or anything you don't want to do. But don't issue a challenge and then make it into something else when it's answered.

I didn't do anything but share with you what I have found to be truth according to Scripture. THAT was the whole reason for making the request...to find out what YOU have found to be truth according to Scripture.

I don't come on this forum to attack any one's Christian beliefs. But I also find it hard to ignore blatant bigoted attacks on my faith. It's even more frustrating when these attacks aren't supported or debated in proper established guidelines. Robo calls me a pagan, I prove him wrong, he just ignores it or waits a day and does it again. Kinda like what sysint is doing with the Modalist accusations. Is this a proper way to life in Christ, or even be an adult?

I have not used pagan as regards to the RCC. Matter of fact, I think Robo and TB are just a little off target with it when talking about RCC membership rather than RCC leadership. Frankly, there's a lot ot be said FOR many of RCC membership as they are much more faithful to the truth than leadeship/doctrine.

Here's another way of looking at it. Personally, I find most libertarian philosophy a little too right wing for my tastes. Does that mean they aren't my countrymen? Are they communists just because somebody calls them so? Do I have to challenge their core beliefs anytime a political discussion takes place? Do I obsess about them and bring their philosophies into question in totally separate topics?

Nope. But they do discuss politics and the finer ways of best making a stronger nation, no? Is it a problem for you to discuss the finer points of Christianity?

Someone once asked me this question..."If you are wrong, wouldn't you want to know it?" My answer was, of course, yes.

If I were to get into a discussion with someone today about the Trinity and I repeat something you or Robo or TB said to make a point, does that make it wrong? Am I now not thinking for myself? Am I worshipping you and not Christ? This is all organized religion is, a common, established means of worshipping God.

The ONLY Authority on spiritual matters is God Himself as He has revealed to us through the Canon of Scripture. If what anyone says is violate of Scripture, it is, simply put, a lie. I can think of no good reason for you to quote anyone other than God in matters of a spiritual nature if you want to speak with authority. (I think that's what you are asking...maybe not.)

Perhaps Catholics do misinterpret scripture. I'll give you that for the sake of argument. However, they are still reading scripture, believing in Christ, trying to follow His ways in their daily life, spiritual life, and religious practices. You may not like them, want to join them, but calling them anti-Christian, pagan, devil worshippers or whatever else is not just wrong, it's flawed logic.

Umm, I'm pretty you won't find where I have done that.

-------------------------------------------------

Boot, you asked for my beliefs and I gladly share them as I feel a kinship with you as a fellow Christian. Here's an idea of how I practice my faith.

Last night I shut the computer off and read a few pages of: Jesus of Nazareth.

Then I read a chapter from: The Imitation of Christ

Then I said my bedtime prayers: Our Father, Fatima Prayer, a prayer to the Holy Spirit, Glory Be, and a Hail Mary (which you should know is merely a petition to Mary asking her to pray to God for us).

Then this morning I awoke and said the Jesus Master prayer and read Psalm 130 (my Friday morning routine prayers).

Now, usually I would then read the Church's directed scripture readings for the day found in the Missal. If you're interested, they are 1 John 5:5-13, parts of the 147 psalm, and Luke 5: 12-16. I would usually then try to keep those readings in my mind throughout my day.However, after fending off some weak pagan accusation made by Robo or someone else that required me to dig into The Liturgy of the Hours, I've been trying to practice that devotion again. It's not easy as it calls for prayer five times a day. This morning's readings are Isaih 65: 13-25, Revelation 21: 1,3,4followed by a sermon by Saint Maximus of Turin on the mystery of the Lord's baptism.
-------------------------------------

Do you see what I'm getting at? You can dislike the Catholic Church, organized religion in general, but please come to the simple conclusion that you don't own Christianity. Your beliefs and practices are just that - yours. I have mine, love them, and would be a rudderless ship without them.
Anyway, my apologies for such a long rant. It's just frustrating dealing with fellow Christians that assume because someone practices differently they must therefore be wrong.

How you develop your own relationship with Christ is not at issue. I have said it is VERY personal and it is.

But say, in your marriage, you were misinterpreting what your wife was trying to say to you and your relationship became strained. Would you not want to know what she was really saying?
Of course, you would. That being said...

As to praying to Mary, I would remind you of John 14:6. "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by Me." Christ alone is our Advocate.

[homersodyssey]

Boot, I'm sorry if I've lumped you into the same barrel as Robo. Indeed you are a person capable of having religious/scriptural discussions without resorting to childish behaviour. Perhaps I'm a little sensitive from the onslaught of pagan/devil/witchcraft accusations.

Anyway, I believe everything I posted. As I've said before, the Church exists to serve God but because it's run by humans it isn't perfect. An imperfect entity serving a perfect one can create some opportunities for criticism. Robo will attest to my not thinking everything the Church says or has done is perfect. But I'm also not going to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Watergate and Lewinski were mistakes made by Presidents, but they don't justify scrapping the office or prove democracry wrong, do they?

The Church is my spiritual guide along my journey home to Christ. It has made mistakes and I don't blindly accept everything that comes out of it. For example I'm not a fan of the changes initiated after Vatican II. Although I understand the premise, I don't practice indulgences. Saints are special people (most literally walked the talk - St. Francis for example) but I don't pray for their direct intervention. Asking someone to pray to God for you is no sin.

It's very selfish and egotistical to expect a group of people to do exactly what you believe and an individual usually doesn't get very far in life by trying. You can also disagree with anything the Pope,a bishop, or a practicing Cathlic says, but to suggest they aren't pious or devout is another faulty leap of arrogance.

I have no problem with the way you choose to follow Christ. TB challenged me to provide scriptural evidence for many Catholic beliefs. I've done that. Any one of them can be challenged as wrongly interpreted, but that wasn't the original challenge. At this point we are down to a debate over whose interpretation is correct. That's fine although I'm sure none of us are about to convert to the other's position. But the point has been proven that Catholics are just as Christian as you or anyone else.

There are no pagan practices, devil worshipping, or withcraft in the Church and to suggest otherwise is absurd. Actually, I could make the same accusations to you all if I were to follow the example and attack another Christian's faith. I pray that you come to realize this isn't what Christ intended and continuing these tactics leads us further from Him and divides His flock.

[homersodyssey]

Christ alone is our Advocate.

Scripture says the Holy Spirit is the Advocate:

John 14: 16 "And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always, the Spirit of Truth."

John 14: 26 "The Advocate, the Holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name - he will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you."

Just messing with ya. I ask Mary to pray for me as I'm a sinner and need all the help I can get.

[acmanko]

Scripture says the Holy Spirit is the Advocate:

John 14: 16 "And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always, the Spirit of Truth."

John 14: 26 "The Advocate, the Holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name - he will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you."

Just messing with ya. I ask Mary to pray for me as I'm a sinner and need all the help I can get.
you should not use the source of Truth to make one look bad

[RoBoTeq]

That's a touching story and I'm glad you found Christ.

But you still haven't answered the question that's been put forth many times. You keep insisting sysint declares a religious affiliation but you have yet to do the same.

If Satan is the great deceiver and you were once in his charge, perhaps he's still tricking you and who you think is Christ is really him. Kinda like the Matrix. Next time, take the red pill. If not, then using Christ as a divider of men is surely not His intent which suggests you are doing the devil's work.
Sorry you didn't understand me...again. I thought I was quite clear that while I have no specific affiliation with any organized religion, I can see some Truth in most of them. Unfortunately, I have not yet found any religious organization that doesn't have doctrine that is not supported by scripture.

While I definitely lean toward Protestant denominations, most of them still have too many Roman Catholic ways about them that do not jibe with scripture. I have chosen churches to associate with over the years strictly by the fellowship of the members.

When listening to some of my teachings to an adult Bible study class, the pastor of the last Lutheran Church I belonged to would just shake his head and exclaim; "well, I suppose that's one way of looking at it." To me, this was fellowship, not being told what to believe, how to believe it or what icons or idols to utilize while believing.

So, just in case you still don't get it, I am a non-denomination follower of Jesus Christ. No religious affiliation, just an affiliation of faith in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour.

[RoBoTeq]

Boot, I'm sorry if I've lumped you into the same barrel as Robo. Indeed you are a person capable of having religious/scriptural discussions without resorting to childish behaviour. Perhaps I'm a little sensitive from the onslaught of pagan/devil/witchcraft accusations.

Anyway, I believe everything I posted. As I've said before, the Church exists to serve God but because it's run by humans it isn't perfect. An imperfect entity serving a perfect one can create some opportunities for criticism. Robo will attest to my not thinking everything the Church says or has done is perfect. But I'm also not going to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Watergate and Lewinski were mistakes made by Presidents, but they don't justify scrapping the office or prove democracry wrong, do they?

The Church is my spiritual guide along my journey home to Christ. It has made mistakes and I don't blindly accept everything that comes out of it. For example I'm not a fan of the changes initiated after Vatican II. Although I understand the premise, I don't practice indulgences. Saints are special people (most literally walked the talk - St. Francis for example) but I don't pray for their direct intervention. Asking someone to pray to God for you is no sin.

It's very selfish and egotistical to expect a group of people to do exactly what you believe and an individual usually doesn't get very far in life by trying. You can also disagree with anything the Pope,a bishop, or a practicing Cathlic says, but to suggest they aren't pious or devout is another faulty leap of arrogance.

I have no problem with the way you choose to follow Christ. TB challenged me to provide scriptural evidence for many Catholic beliefs. I've done that. Any one of them can be challenged as wrongly interpreted, but that wasn't the original challenge. At this point we are down to a debate over whose interpretation is correct. That's fine although I'm sure none of us are about to convert to the other's position. But the point has been proven that Catholics are just as Christian as you or anyone else.

There are no pagan practices, devil worshipping, or withcraft in the Church and to suggest otherwise is absurd. Actually, I could make the same accusations to you all if I were to follow the example and attack another Christian's faith. I pray that you come to realize this isn't what Christ intended and continuing these tactics leads us further from Him and divides His flock.
Ahhh, when an alliance does not work out (syssy must have hit a nerve), use the old divide and conquer technique.

Good thing there is unity is Christ.

[bootlen]

Scripture says the Holy Spirit is the Advocate:

John 14: 16 "And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always, the Spirit of Truth."

John 14: 26 "The Advocate, the Holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name - he will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you."

Just messing with ya. I ask Mary to pray for me as I'm a sinner and need all the help I can get.

No argument. And if you look at the 21st century Greek, you can find that the word (I don't have my Greek NT with me so I'm going from memory...please forgive) in v. 16 for "another" means "another just exactly like me in every facet and detail". This is more confirmation that the Father, Son, and H.S. are 3 Persons in one God. So we are both correct on that account. However, Mary is not someone you should pray to. She cannot hear you nor will she present your requests to the Father.

[bootlen]

Boot, I'm sorry if I've lumped you into the same barrel as Robo. Indeed you are a person capable of having religious/scriptural discussions without resorting to childish behaviour. Perhaps I'm a little sensitive from the onslaught of pagan/devil/witchcraft accusations.

Anyway, I believe everything I posted. As I've said before, the Church exists to serve God but because it's run by humans it isn't perfect. An imperfect entity serving a perfect one can create some opportunities for criticism. Robo will attest to my not thinking everything the Church says or has done is perfect. But I'm also not going to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Watergate and Lewinski were mistakes made by Presidents, but they don't justify scrapping the office or prove democracry wrong, do they?

The Church is my spiritual guide along my journey home to Christ. It has made mistakes and I don't blindly accept everything that comes out of it. For example I'm not a fan of the changes initiated after Vatican II. Although I understand the premise, I don't practice indulgences. Saints are special people (most literally walked the talk - St. Francis for example) but I don't pray for their direct intervention. Asking someone to pray to God for you is no sin.

It's very selfish and egotistical to expect a group of people to do exactly what you believe and an individual usually doesn't get very far in life by trying. You can also disagree with anything the Pope,a bishop, or a practicing Cathlic says, but to suggest they aren't pious or devout is another faulty leap of arrogance.

I have no problem with the way you choose to follow Christ. TB challenged me to provide scriptural evidence for many Catholic beliefs. I've done that. Any one of them can be challenged as wrongly interpreted, but that wasn't the original challenge. At this point we are down to a debate over whose interpretation is correct. That's fine although I'm sure none of us are about to convert to the other's position. But the point has been proven that Catholics are just as Christian as you or anyone else.

There are no pagan practices, devil worshipping, or withcraft in the Church and to suggest otherwise is absurd. Actually, I could make the same accusations to you all if I were to follow the example and attack another Christian's faith. I pray that you come to realize this isn't what Christ intended and continuing these tactics leads us further from Him and divides His flock.

I can appreciate your points. I know many RCC members with whom I am sure I will fellowship in eternity. But as you grow spiritually and truth is made known to you, I am sure God expects you to act on those illuminations. I'm not saying you have to leave the RCC. If the liturgy is important to you and it draws you closer to the Lord, I say go for it. There are a few things with which I do not agree with my pastor. Neither will I throw out the baby with the bathwater. But then again, we are in agreement on about 99% and that is more than enough for me to stay. Most of our disagreement is in a political vein as it relates to Scripture.

BTW, my wife, her family, my pastor, and many of my friends at my church are former RCC. I may have mentioned that. Maybe that's why I wish to discuss this with you. Sort of a soft spot inmy heart for RCC membership. I'd like to see ALL of you come to understand what I am saying here.

[bootlen]

here is the link that I copy and pasted from. allthough you know everything and will surely go to heaven, I thought you asked Homer for something such as this. BTW what are the credentials of the members who set your Church Doctrine?

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html

No joke? Well it IS laughable.

Members don't set church doctrine. Scripture does.

[bootlen]

Here ya go, AC. All based on Scripture. It falls right in line with what I have found to be true in Scripture.

There is one true God, eternally existing in three persons--Father, Son and Holy Spirit---each of whom equally possesses all the attributes of Deity and the characteristics of personality.


Jesus Christ is God, the living Word, who became flesh through His miraculous conception by the Holy Spirit and His virgin birth. Hence, He is perfect Deity and true humanity united in one person forever.


Jesus Christ lived a sinless life and voluntarily atoned for the sins of men by dying on the cross as their substitute, thus satisfying divine justice and accomplishing salvation for all who trust in Him alone.


Jesus Christ rose from the dead in the same body, though glorified, in which He lived and died.


Jesus Christ ascended bodily into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God the Father, where He, the only mediator between God and man, continually makes intercession for His own.


Man is created in the image of God. All have sinned disobeying God; thus, man is alienated from His creator. That historic fall brought all mankind under divine condemnation.


Man’s nature is corrupted, and he is totally unable to please God. Every man is in need of salvation by regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.


The salvation of man is entirely a work of God’s free grace and is not the work, in whole or in part, of human works or goodness or religious ceremony. God imputes His righteousness to those who put their faith in Christ alone for their salvation, and thereby justifies them forever in His sight.


It is the privilege of all who are born again of the Spirit to be assured of their salvation from the very moment in which they trust Christ as their Savior and Lord. This assurance is not based on any kind of human merit, but is produced by the witness of the Spirit, who confirms in the believer the testimony of God in His written Word.


The Holy Spirit has come into the world to reveal and glorify Christ and to apply the saving work of Christ to men. He convicts and draws sinners to Christ, imparts new life to them, continually indwells them from the moment of spiritual birth and seals them until the day of redemption. His fullness, power and control are appropriated in the believer’s life by faith. Every believer is called to live in the power of the indwelling Spirit that he might not fulfill the lust of the flesh but will bear fruit to the glory of God.


Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church, His Body, which is composed of all men, living and dead, who have been joined to Him through saving faith.


God admonishes His people to assemble together in local churches for worship, for participation in the ordinances of believer’s baptism and the Lord’s Table, for edification through the Scriptures and for mutual encouragement.


At physical death the believer immediately enters into eternal, conscious fellowship with the Lord and awaits the resurrection of his body to everlasting glory and blessing.


At physical death the unbeliever enters immediately into eternal, conscious separation in Hades away from the Lord and awaits the resurrection of his body to everlasting judgment and condemnation in the Lake of Fire.


Jesus Christ will come again to the earth personally, visibly and bodily to consummate history and the eternal plan of God.


The Lord Jesus Christ commanded all believers to proclaim the gospel throughout the world and to disciple men of every nation in the context of the local church. The fulfillment of the Great Commission requires that all worldly and personal ambitions be subordinated to a total commitment to "Him who loved us and gave Himself for us."

[homersodyssey]

BTW, my wife, her family, my pastor, and many of my friends at my church are former RCC. I may have mentioned that. Maybe that's why I wish to discuss this with you. Sort of a soft spot inmy heart for RCC membership. I'd like to see ALL of you come to understand what I am saying here.

At least your wife stayed in Christianity and is active in her faith. Too many leave their church only to join the apathetic or agnostics wandering aimlessly through their spiritual life. The Church has lost many since Vatican II and hopefully this Pope will bring the Church back to its roots thereby distinguishing it from the numerous Protestant denominations.

My congregation has many converts in it too. I say they make the best Catholics as they appreciate everything the Church offers even more.

Every belief system states itself to be the sole path to salvation. What you claim to be the truth is your definition, your interpretation, your opinion. I'm glad you have a life in Christ and I'm confident you'll find salvation. Like you my faith is based on scripture; scripture based with two thousand years of following Christ as tradition.

[bigtime]

Every belief system states itself to be the sole path to salvation. What you claim to be the truth is your definition, your interpretation, your opinion.

Very true words. There is no doubt in my mind that the people who pound their chests and want everyone to know their way is the correct way, would do the same for a completely different religion if they were born in another time/place.

[bootlen]

Every belief system states itself to be the sole path to salvation. What you claim to be the truth is your definition, your interpretation, your opinion. I'm glad you have a life in Christ and I'm confident you'll find salvation. Like you my faith is based on scripture; scripture based with two thousand years of following Christ as tradition.

And Christianity is the only belief system that has proven itself to be what it says it is. It's spinoffs that have perverted and bastardized the tenets of Christianity. Those that have "other scripture"; those that have changed words; those that have taken focus from Christ and placed focus on things...time will show them to be false belief systems.

[acmanko]

Here ya go, AC. All based on Scripture. It falls right in line with what I have found to be true in Scripture.

There is one true God, eternally existing in three persons--Father, Son and Holy Spirit---each of whom equally possesses all the attributes of Deity and the characteristics of personality.


Jesus Christ is God, the living Word, who became flesh through His miraculous conception by the Holy Spirit and His virgin birth. Hence, He is perfect Deity and true humanity united in one person forever.


Jesus Christ lived a sinless life and voluntarily atoned for the sins of men by dying on the cross as their substitute, thus satisfying divine justice and accomplishing salvation for all who trust in Him alone.


Jesus Christ rose from the dead in the same body, though glorified, in which He lived and died.


Jesus Christ ascended bodily into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God the Father, where He, the only mediator between God and man, continually makes intercession for His own.


Man is created in the image of God. All have sinned disobeying God; thus, man is alienated from His creator. That historic fall brought all mankind under divine condemnation.


Man’s nature is corrupted, and he is totally unable to please God. Every man is in need of salvation by regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.


The salvation of man is entirely a work of God’s free grace and is not the work, in whole or in part, of human works or goodness or religious ceremony. God imputes His righteousness to those who put their faith in Christ alone for their salvation, and thereby justifies them forever in His sight.


It is the privilege of all who are born again of the Spirit to be assured of their salvation from the very moment in which they trust Christ as their Savior and Lord. This assurance is not based on any kind of human merit, but is produced by the witness of the Spirit, who confirms in the believer the testimony of God in His written Word.


The Holy Spirit has come into the world to reveal and glorify Christ and to apply the saving work of Christ to men. He convicts and draws sinners to Christ, imparts new life to them, continually indwells them from the moment of spiritual birth and seals them until the day of redemption. His fullness, power and control are appropriated in the believer’s life by faith. Every believer is called to live in the power of the indwelling Spirit that he might not fulfill the lust of the flesh but will bear fruit to the glory of God.


Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church, His Body, which is composed of all men, living and dead, who have been joined to Him through saving faith.


God admonishes His people to assemble together in local churches for worship, for participation in the ordinances of believer’s baptism and the Lord’s Table, for edification through the Scriptures and for mutual encouragement.


At physical death the believer immediately enters into eternal, conscious fellowship with the Lord and awaits the resurrection of his body to everlasting glory and blessing.


At physical death the unbeliever enters immediately into eternal, conscious separation in Hades away from the Lord and awaits the resurrection of his body to everlasting judgment and condemnation in the Lake of Fire.


Jesus Christ will come again to the earth personally, visibly and bodily to consummate history and the eternal plan of God.


The Lord Jesus Christ commanded all believers to proclaim the gospel throughout the world and to disciple men of every nation in the context of the local church. The fulfillment of the Great Commission requires that all worldly and personal ambitions be subordinated to a total commitment to "Him who loved us and gave Himself for us."
well, bootlen these are about on par with what Catholics believe

[bootlen]

well, bootlen these are about on par with what Catholics believe

"About"? What's different?

[acmanko]

"About"? What's different?nothing really

[bootlen]

nothing really

You're neither observant nor well read.

Actually, 6 out of the 16 points differ from RCC doctrine. I leave it up to you to figure out which. And there is enough on here alongside Scripture to determine which. That is your homework assignment. Given you're retired, you should have plenty of time to check back in with a report in 10 days.

Good luck.

[acmanko]

You're neither observant nor well read.

Actually, 6 out of the 16 points differ from RCC doctrine. I leave it up to you to figure out which. And there is enough on here alongside Scripture to determine which. That is your homework assignment. Given you're retired, you should have plenty of time to check back in with a report in 10 days.

Good luck.
6 of 16 is not much, but for starters the two about dying and being either in hades or in Gods favor till resurection are just derivatives of catholic doctirine on purgatory. the other 4 I'll have to take a look

[acmanko]

well, I reread your articles and see no difference other than the purgatory stance.

[RoBoTeq]

No argument. And if you look at the 21st century Greek, you can find that the word (I don't have my Greek NT with me so I'm going from memory...please forgive) in v. 16 for "another" means "another just exactly like me in every facet and detail". This is more confirmation that the Father, Son, and H.S. are 3 Persons in one God. So we are both correct on that account. However, Mary is not someone you should pray to. She cannot hear you nor will she present your requests to the Father.
Good point about Mary, the mother of Jesus. There is nothing claiming that Mary did not die just as every other mortal dies, so we must assume that Mary is indeed dead.

Now, here is where the RCC makes a very Paganistic argument for conversing with the dead; http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

But in Deuteronomy 18, we learn something else about this practice;
9 When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. 10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=18&version=31#fen-NIV-5395a)] the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. 13 You must be blameless before the LORD your God.

I don't see any clear instructions for us to speak to the dead, only interpretations of passages that could mean a lot of things. However, I do see a specific command to "not" speak to the dead.

[bootlen]

well, I reread your articles and see no difference other than the purgatory stance.

Like I said. You are not very observant or well read.

[bootlen]

6 of 16 is not much, but for starters the two about dying and being either in hades or in Gods favor till resurection are just derivatives of catholic doctirine on purgatory. the other 4 I'll have to take a look

Nope. Derivatives of The Canon of Scripture. Like I said. Not well read.

[bootlen]

Actually, ac, I guess you're not doing too bad. Got 2 in the first 15 or 20 minutes. But there's still 4 to go.

[acmanko]

Actually, ac, I guess you're not doing too bad. Got 2 in the first 15 or 20 minutes. But there's still 4 to go.what is is Booty is you believe you know what Catholics believe, but in reality you don't everything you stated is a catholic belief, some could be worded different , but that comes with different versions of the Bible. as I see it ,you and I are basically on the same page.

I just take to heart what Jesus said about the rightgeous, which you seem not to.

[homersodyssey]

Boot, at this point I'm not sure what direction you'd like our discussion to go. I don't see either of us converting to the other's faith or winning any debate. We're basically down to a "I'm right", "No your're not", "Yes I am" type of interaction which is not as offensive but just as futile as Robo's, "You're a pagan", "No I'm not.", "Yes you are" offerings.

If you are familiar with Monty Python's "Argument" skit then you might have an idea what I'm feeling.

We can both quote scriptural support of our beliefs. I would like to have dialogue expounding both our shared beliefs along with our differences. To be fair though, having your facts straight is a prerequisite to making assertions about the Church if I'm to take you seriously. If you'd like to continue as fellow Christians in the spirit of deepening our faith through the expression of the other's, then I'm in.

"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church, which is, of course, quite a different thing." Bishop Fulton Sheen

Here are some sources to check out to get a proper understanding of my position in case you're of the latter in the above quote.

http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/index2.htm
http://www.catholic.com/library/fundamentalist_or_catholic.asp
http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/rock.htm
http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/sola.htm
http://traditionalromancatholicism.org/Biblicalproofforthesevensacraments.html
http://www.askacatholic.com/_WhatsNew/myfavorites/TopTenReasonToReturn.cfm

Of course I didn't personally write all these websites, but I'm willing to bet they are totally or real close to mirroring my religious beliefs. That's one of the benefits of belonging to a two thousand year old church. You don't have to interpret, translate, re-invent the wheel, or design a better mouse trap. You can devote your spiritual time to fostering your faith, developing your personal relationship with Jesus, actually living his teachings, and preparing yourself to meet Him face to face.

I'm starting to consider you a friend in Christ so let me know how you'd like to continue.

[bootlen]

what is is Booty is you believe you know what Catholics believe, but in reality you don't everything you stated is a catholic belief, some could be worded different , but that comes with different versions of the Bible. as I see it ,you and I are basically on the same page.

I just take to heart what Jesus said about the rightgeous, which you seem not to.

Nope. Each of the,m have been demonstrated to be part of RCC doctrine right here in this thread. Also, I was aware of each of them being RCC doctrine prior to even posting my first statement on H-Talk. And they were demonstrated by RCC members.

Making rash statements does not flatter you, AC.

[bootlen]

Boot, at this point I'm not sure what direction you'd like our discussion to go. I don't see either of us converting to the other's faith or winning any debate. We're basically down to a "I'm right", "No your're not", "Yes I am" type of interaction which is not as offensive but just as futile as Robo's, "You're a pagan", "No I'm not.", "Yes you are" offerings.


Okay, I'll let AC off the hook as he has apparently given up and resorted to his standard practice of ignoring facts and saying, "See, we agree."

Besides items 13 and 14 that AC has found, let's look at items 3, 5, 8,and 9. I have stated that this statement of faith is based on what I have found to be true in Scripture and they are in direct contradiction to what RCC doctrine is. All I ask is that you show Scripture to back up what YOU believe.

Honestly, Homer, I don't see how it is such a problem. But if you are not interested, fine. I leave it to you to decide.

[homersodyssey]

Okay, I'll let AC off the hook as he has apparently given up and resorted to his standard practice of ignoring facts and saying, "See, we agree."

Besides items 13 and 14 that AC has found, let's look at items 3, 5, 8,and 9. I have stated that this statement of faith is based on what I have found to be true in Scripture and they are in direct contradiction to what RCC doctrine is. All I ask is that you show Scripture to back up what YOU believe.

Honestly, Homer, I don't see how it is such a problem. But if you are not interested, fine. I leave it to you to decide.


I haven't been following your discussion with AC. All Church doctrine is supported by scripture. You can disagree with the "interpretation" but that just gets us back to the "You're wrong" "No I'm not" "Yes you are" peeing match. If you'd like to skip that yellow patch in the snow and concede each other has their own interpretation then we can move along to more productive chats.

[bootlen]

I haven't been following your discussion with AC. All Church doctrine is supported by scripture. You can disagree with the "interpretation" but that just gets us back to the "You're wrong" "No I'm not" "Yes you are" peeing match. If you'd like to skip that yellow patch in the snow and concede each other has their own interpretation then we can move along to more productive chats.

Sure. I never did have an affinity for yellow snow anyway.

[homersodyssey]

Sure. I never did have an affinity for yellow snow anyway.

Great. Looking forward to it.

Sorry for the geographically insensitive reference to snow. I forgot you're a southern lad.

Come to think of it...the word 'snow' doesn't appear in the Bible. I guess that means Robo considers Snow Angels to be pagan symbols, Snow Men pagan icons, and God only knows what he thinks a Snow Storm represents.

[bootlen]

Were you brought up in the RCC or were you a convert?

[homersodyssey]

Born and raised. Had a few years of apathy/agnosticism in university. Slowly got back into regular practice in my late twenties/early thirties. It was getting talked into playing the church organ that really opened my eyes to the culture, history, teaching and practices of the Church. I've been self-learning ever since.

you?

[bootlen]

Parents took me to a Baptist Sunday Morning Social. No real Biblcal teaching there. Finished scool, went off into the military and lived like a (Now get this, Robo!) PAGAN! Womanized, drank, cursed, lied, stole, killed, and generally raised mortal hell. Then, at the age of 30, I started going to church on my own. Made a commitment, but never really walked with Christ. Even taught in my immature spiritual ignorance. A full 18 years later, I met the real thing. I met a couple who LIVED Christ. It would take way too much bandwidth to explain that. Suffice it to say that it literally totally changed my life. That was just 13 years ago. I've been slicing and dicing, chewing on, swallowing, regurgitating, chewing on more, in/exhaling, and generally absorbing Scripture since that time. It has been an incredible journey. And I can honestly say I haven't a clue how I physically survived some of the crap I went through but looking back,I can see the hand of God keeping me safe.

I am currently in a church where the Word of God is taught unabashedly and unashamedly. The pastor is an expositional preacher and allows Scripture to interpret Scripture. I have found there is no better way to know the will of God. (Yes, you CAN KNOW the will of God. He tells us what it is in Scripture.)

I do have some disagreement on occasion with the pastor but he and I are closer to the same wavelength than anyone I've ever met. My church is a non-denominational. We are not affiliated with any larger organization. It was founded some 28 years ago on July 4. Five families met for a Bible study and it has grown to about 1800 since that time.

Yeeeesh!
Hey! Homer! Wake up. I didn't mean to put you to sleep. Sorry 'bout that.

[homersodyssey]

You didn't close my eyes Boot, but you did get them a wee bit misty.

I know what you mean by not knowing how you made it through your days outside of Christ. I've strayed in my adult life too and when thinking back can't believe I made it this far unscathed.

By the way, thank you for serving your nation in defence of freedom and liberty.

[jpdc]

..

[jpdc]

?

[RoBoTeq]

what is is Booty is you believe you know what Catholics believe, but in reality you don't everything you stated is a catholic belief, some could be worded different , but that comes with different versions of the Bible. as I see it ,you and I are basically on the same page.

I just take to heart what Jesus said about the rightgeous, which you seem not to.
Hmmmm, I have always thanked God that most Catholics don't believe what the RCC teaches. As with most religions, most who are members of religious organizations don't really know that much about the doctrines of the religions that they ally themselves with.

Most people who are members of a religious organization are so because family or friends are members. Religious organizations are social organizations more so then they are theological organizations, at least from the standpoint of the congregations. That is a good thing because if people really bought in to most of the off beat stuff that religions teach, it would be a much more evil world.

Muslims are no different. That is why so many Muslims claim that Islam is strictly a peaceful religion; they just never took the time to really check out the doctrines of their chosen religion.

[RoBoTeq]

Okay, I'll let AC off the hook as he has apparently given up and resorted to his standard practice of ignoring facts and saying, "See, we agree."

Besides items 13 and 14 that AC has found, let's look at items 3, 5, 8,and 9. I have stated that this statement of faith is based on what I have found to be true in Scripture and they are in direct contradiction to what RCC doctrine is. All I ask is that you show Scripture to back up what YOU believe.

Honestly, Homer, I don't see how it is such a problem. But if you are not interested, fine. I leave it to you to decide.
Of course homer is not interested in Truth boots. Even though you and I disagree on several particulars of our faith, we are still both students of the faith. It has become apparent that homer's only intent is to try to demean our faith with his claims of believing so intently on everything about RCC doctrine that is so obviously wrong according to scripture.

Homer has escalated his accusations that I called him a Pagan to the now level of a flat out lie. He refuses to admit that I did not call him a Pagan, will not show where he even thinks I have called him a Pagan but yet continues to perpetuate the lie that I did call him a Pagan. Does this sort of rhetoric not sound familiar. Let me give you a hint; Screwtape and Wormwood would be more suitable names for homer and syssy.

[TB]

Anyway, my apologies for such a long rant. It's just frustrating dealing with fellow Christians that assume because someone practices differently they must therefore be wrong. TB, can we just agree to disagree over certain beliefs and practices and move on, or would you like me to complete your list?

Never once did I make assumtions about you, in fact, if you'll recall, one of the first things I said before we got into this "fire fight", was that I do believe some RCC's are true, saved, believers. My only intent was to display real legitimate concerns about following the RCC Catechism doctrine blindly, I have read "prayers" to mary in the Catechism that were word for word also in pagan worship rituals as prayers to their goddess. I don't think it is coincidence, but regardless of the denomination, Jesus is found only in His Word, as Bootlen posted. Look at it this way my friend, you have now been initiated into the ARPoholics religious debate club. :) (I think the guys have another name for it, but that's my name. :) ) Never once did I get upset, frustrated, or "biggoted" at you, because I realize that even if you suddenly laid down your arms, and realized Boot, Robo and/or I was "absolutely right" about all our claims, it would still take roughly 10 years + or -, for a complete paradigm shift. (Or at least it did in my case.) I also don't expect you to believe anything I say untill you research it for yourself, thus the reading recommendations I have made.

There are a few comments I'd like to make, just on the part of this post I didn't quote, but I won't right now, However, should you choose to entertain the idea of an exogetical study of the Bible, I'm sure there's more than a few here who would enjoy that, and all would benefit. I have found that there is nothing better to sharpen my own understanding of the Bible, than a good debate with a thoughtfull skeptic, or someone who disagrees with my own opinion, because frequently, it forces me to think through doctrine I was told to believe before I was old enough to think it through, and consequently, never have, because it never occured to me to think it through.

Untill such time, welcome to ARP ;)

[TB]

There are no pagan practices, devil worshipping, or withcraft in the Church and to suggest otherwise is absurd. Actually, I could make the same accusations to you all if I were to follow the example and attack another Christian's faith. I pray that you come to realize this isn't what Christ intended and continuing these tactics leads us further from Him and divides His flock.

Actually, the tactic I used is also used by Jesus. I may not have been as tactful, but I'm still learning, too.;)

[TB]

As I've said before, the Church exists to serve God but because it's run by humans it isn't perfect.

As long as you understand that, then you need to identify where it's wrong, otherwise, you'll be just as wrong.



There are no pagan practices, devil worshipping, or withcraft in the Church and to suggest otherwise is absurd.
I'm about to become absurd again. :eek:


The Church is my spiritual guide along my journey home to Christ.
Witches, buddhists, and paganists also believe in spirit guides...spirit guides that are not God Himself. The Christian, however, trusts God to guide him into His will for us in this life.



Asking someone to pray to God for you is no sin.
No, but asking a dead person to pray for you, or anything else, is called Necromancy, a common religious practice amongst the members of the occult, and therefore forbidden by God. Christians pray only to God.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God and one intermediary between God and humanity, Christ Jesus, himself human,

Act 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among people by which we must be saved."

1Jn 2:1 (My little children,1 I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. ) But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous One,

Joh 15:26 When the Advocate68 comes, whom I will send you from the Father — the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father — he will testify about me,

Joh 14:26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything, and will cause you to remember everything I said to you.

Heb 4:16 Therefore let us confidently approach the throne of grace to receive mercy and find grace whenever we need help.

The problem is not what is believed--per se, but what is not believed. If you believe that mary, or someone the church (ie. not God) called a "patron st. must be your advocate, it reveals a lack of trust in Jesus to be your advocate. Worse yet, your action, reveals your belief system is that a dead person is more qualified to be a good advocate on your behalf, than Jesus is. In order to believe that, you must, A) not know God or His character very well at all, B) not believe God, that Jesus is not only the Best advocate you could have, but also the only one avaliable, and C) trust the person who told you that a dead person was a better advocate than Jesus, and trust that person to be more likely to tell you the truth, than God.

How then can you have a good relationship with God, when you believe Him to be an untrustworthy liar, or, fail to know His true character?

Oh, BTW, that's the same opinion of God that occultist's have. Why do you believe the same thing occultists do?

[TB]

Scripture says the Holy Spirit is the Advocate:
Then why do you pray to mary?



I ask Mary to pray for me as I'm a sinner and need all the help I can get.

[TB]

If we're not suppose to believe what others tell us to believe, then why are you telling me what to believe?

I see a disturbing trend here Homer. Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing you, but this question reveals a quality about your belief system. Boot never told you what to believe. The fact that you understood him to, first of all suggests that you are in the habit of not only being told what to believe, but also, and other posts have eluded to this too, it shows that it dosen't even enter your thinking that someone would actually read the Bible and believe what it said, without having someone tell them too. We are told to use only scripture as the authority of truth.

Act 17:11 These Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica, for they eagerly received the message, examining the scriptures carefully every day to see if these things were so.

We need to know it, research it, and believe only what it says is true. Remember, it was Paul's words they were researching and testing by the standard of scripture, and commended for it.

[TB]

Come to think of it...the word 'snow' doesn't appear in the Bible.

Actually, it does, about 22 times.

[acmanko]

Okay, I'll let AC off the hook as he has apparently given up and resorted to his standard practice of ignoring facts and saying, "See, we agree."

Besides items 13 and 14 that AC has found, let's look at items 3, 5, 8,and 9. I have stated that this statement of faith is based on what I have found to be true in Scripture and they are in direct contradiction to what RCC doctrine is. All I ask is that you show Scripture to back up what YOU believe.

Honestly, Homer, I don't see how it is such a problem. But if you are not interested, fine. I leave it to you to decide. I did not give up. I do have other things happening in my life other than argueing with you about Religion.
You believe JC is the way to heaven as do I, you worship one way I another. You worry about it and I don't

[homersodyssey]

Untill such time, welcome to ARP ;)

Thank you for the welcome. I'll try to not lump people into the same barrel. While I appreciate your concern for the Church comes from pure intentions I can confirm that paganism is something that we know nothing about. There are more legitimite concerns in the world right now like Islamofascism, secularism, abortion, so perhaps Satan is actively at work there. The Church is in a good position to speak out against those at it isn't a loose collection of individuals.

[bootlen]

I did not give up. I do have other things happening in my life other than argueing with you about Religion.
You believe JC is the way to heaven as do I, you worship one way I another. You worry about it and I don't

Sure ya did.


well, I reread your articles and see no difference other than the purgatory stance.


what is is Booty is you believe you know what Catholics believe, but in reality you don't everything you stated is a catholic belief, some could be worded different , but that comes with different versions of the Bible. as I see it ,you and I are basically on the same page.

[bootlen]

Homer, at this point, I think it profitable for all of us for me to make this statement.

Robo did not call you personally a pagan. The closest thing he came to that was saying the RCC is paganistic. As a general rule, when one speaks of such a large organization, one is not speaking specifically of members of that organization but of its leadership/doctrine.

And I think you will also find that TB is in that same "boat".

I, too, use the same terminology. So please don't take words/statements quite as personally as you have here. This beast that is called ARP is brash, bold, raw, and unpolished. But it is that way for a reason. Frankly, truth is the same way. It is what it is regardless of who likes/dislikes it and regardless of who gets hurt. And the point of ANY discussion is to get to the truth, where pain and victory are at their zenith. This, Homer, is what the liberal mindset does not understand.

That being said, I realize it is difficult to hear things about one's mode of worship to be put on the mincing block. Please understand it is not an affront to persons but to doctrine...good, bad, or indifferent. All of Christianity voluntarily subjects itself to this mincing block daily. People are dying every single day for the cause of Christ as they lay Christian doctrine before the world to attack. And it will be that way until The Day. (Now THERE is a topic muchly worth discussing. Need another thread, though.)

And like TB said, welcome to the world of unmitigated truth.

[homersodyssey]

Just for the record, if you call someone's church pagen then those who practice the faith are too, by that assertion.

I checked a couple sources and didn't find any support for your definition of truth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth

I can handle brash, bold, raw and unpolished discussions. We could go back and forth on the merits of praying to Mary. But don't assert things that don't follow logical process such as some obelisk in the Vatican proving I practice a pagen ritual. Especially when there's a big one in Washington too.

To this point I have defended the faith. Keep in mind that I have chosen not to use my Bible to attack your beliefs.

It's true Christianity is under real attack in some parts of the world. You are aware of the Catholics that died for the faith last year and every year prior to that I hope. And all the flack we take for things like Prop 8, the abortion battle, Hollywood, etc.

Rather than using your time to attack fellow Christians, perhaps that investment would provide better returns if focused on legitimate threats.

[bootlen]

Just for the record, if you call someone's church pagen then those who practice the faith are too, by that assertion.

I disagree. You yourself said you were unaware of practices attributed to paganism within the RCC. You don't practice as a pagan but as a Catholic. Take note of AC's comments. I said pagans breathe. AC said that makes me a pagan. Do you see how ludicrous that is?

I checked a couple sources and didn't find any support for your definition of truth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth

I didn't define truth. I simply described it

I can handle brash, bold, raw and unpolished discussions. We could go back and forth on the merits of praying to Mary. But don't assert things that don't follow logical process such as some obelisk in the Vatican proving I practice a pagen ritual. Especially when there's a big one in Washington too.

Well, lots of people are conspiracy nuts. Ya gotta overlook some of that crap. I try to ignore that stuff.

To this point I have defended the faith. Keep in mind that I have chosen not to use my Bible to attack your beliefs.

LOL! Whatever. But I don't think your attack would succeed anyway. And I would not be offended if you did. Frankly, I don't believe anything till I hold it up to the light of Scripture. If it passes, I study it and try to learn from it. If it fails, I toss it into file 13 of my mind. But I'm not offended by it.

It's true Christianity is under real attack in some parts of the world. You are aware of the Catholics that died for the faith last year and every year prior to that I hope. And all the flack we take for things like Prop 8, the abortion battle, Hollywood, etc.

Of course. And our church prays from the pulpit and at home for those who remain and faithfully serve, be they Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, RCC or whatever Christian organization supports them. The cause of Christ is paramount.

Rather than using your time to attack fellow Christians, perhaps that investment would provide better returns if focused on legitimate threats.

Where did I attack a fellow Christian? Yeah, I have attacked false doctrine and will continue to do so.

If I see doctrine I am not familiar with, I will, as I said, hold it up to the light of Scripture...TRUTH, if you will...and if it does not pass Scriptural muster, I will castigate it. Christ did and I am convinced all believers should do the same. That is what Scripture teaches.

[homersodyssey]

If I see doctrine I am not familiar with, I will, as I said, hold it up to the light of Scripture...TRUTH, if you will...and if it does not pass Scriptural muster, I will castigate it. Christ did and I am convinced all believers should do the same. That is what Scripture teaches.

Then all we're down to is the "I know the TRUTH", "No you don't", "Yes I do" exchange. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/futile

[bootlen]

Then all we're down to is the "I know the TRUTH", "No you don't", "Yes I do" exchange. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/futile

You may be. I'm down to "God knows the truth".

[homersodyssey]

You may be. I'm down to "God knows the truth".

Then you are mistaken. God is the truth (John 14:6)

[bootlen]

You're saying He doesn't know Himself?

[arc8]

by acmanko
But not all scripture is included in the Bible.
Since the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, which contained more books that have been banned, How do you figure what you read is correct. Remember, the books that were banned were banned by the RCC

The RCC had the corrupted text anyway. So it would not matter whatever they banned.
Did God lie? The Bible claims that all is complete; there are no more scripture to be added!




by BigJon3475
If you are an atheist what type of background did you grow up in? Poverty stricken? middle class? upper class? barely educated? well educated?
I think you will see a trend of people who "believe" and who don't. Do you really want to take away the one thing people in the most dire of situations have that makes them feel good and gives them purpose? Is "It's not about you" really that offensive that you need to "make people believe"? There is a reason why the people with the strongest faith throughout history have been the poor, weak, needy, poverty stricken...etc. But it's very much like humans once they "movinonup to the east side" to abandon past practices and in some cases even try and forget that past by trying to destroy religion in others eyes.
A woman huddling down hiding from genocide in the Congo is praying to god for help. Would you walk up to her and start talking about how wrong it is? How about someone sitting on a bench reading the bible? If you would or wouldn't depending on the situation what is the difference to you?

Not me! But an atheist would!




by jmac00
I win
although I don't read and interpret the bible and scripture (which I don't believe is necessary), I still have faith and I believe in Gods basic message,of Love All

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?
2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.




by acmanko
here is the link that I copy and pasted from. allthough you know everything and will surely go to heaven, I thought you asked Homer for something such as this. BTW what are the credentials of the members who set your Church Doctrine?

Members become members by being baptized into a scriptural New Testament church; of course they must be born-again first.
All Pastors, Evangelist, Missionaries, etc… are called of God!
All doctrines, commandments and statues, etc… are taken by the Word of God: especially the Commission!



by acmanko
well, I reread your articles and see no difference other than the purgatory stance.

Why would purgatory even be mentioned? It’s never mentioned from the KJV bible; maybe it’s from the Catholic bible!



by homersodyssey
As I've said before, the Church exists to serve God but because it's run by humans it isn't perfect.


But the Word of God is Perfect!
Yet, Jesus will still come and get his pure, undefiled bride (His Pure Church) in the last days, according to the scriptures!



by homersodyssey
Asking someone to pray to God for you is no sin.


Except for absolving your sin.
Only Jesus Christ can forgive your Sin (death); not man or the vicar of Christ nor any dead relatives, not saints (all saved people are called Saints), and not Buddha.

[TB]

Just for the record, if you call someone's church pagen then those who practice the faith are too, by that assertion. Not so. This is one of the things I referred to before. People are individuals, and God holds us accountable for our own condition. We are not identified by the church we attend. The christian is not dependant on his church for a relationship with God, therefore, cannot be identified with it, and God dosen't hold us responsible for anything other than our own state of being. I attend a church that came from, and could be accused still, of being a Church of Christ denomination, but I ain't, not even the least, as boot and Robo can affirm :)


Keep in mind that I have chosen not to use my Bible to attack your beliefs.



Why not? If I'm wrong, I need to know it, right?

[RoBoTeq]

Not so. This is one of the things I referred to before. People are individuals, and God holds us accountable for our own condition. We are not identified by the church we attend. The christian is not dependant on his church for a relationship with God, therefore, cannot be identified with it, and God dosen't hold us responsible for anything other than our own state of being. I attend a church that came from, and could be accused still, of being a Church of Christ denomination, but I ain't, not even the least, as boot and Robo can affirm :)


Why not? If I'm wrong, I need to know it, right?
Very well put TB. I am a regestered reverend of church whose doctrines I do not completely agree with. I also don't agree that one needs to be affiliated with any religion in order to be a reverend, pastor or otherwise teacher of scripture. Ordaination is just one more thing that religions have invented.

[homersodyssey]

Did God lie? The Bible claims that all is complete; there are no more scripture to be added!

John 21: 25 "There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written."

Boot, I'm not sure I can recall Jesus talking about God's self-awareness.

TB, if I accused America of creating world poverty, an illegal war in Iraq, cultural imperialism, polluting the environmnet, etc, and concluded that it was evil would you come to her defence?

Jesus speaks many times of His Church, gives the apostles commands to teach, and gives conditions of discipleship. The numerous fractions and ways of Protestantism do not disprove Christ's words.

[TB]

Homer, I think I understand the paradigm's here. I was raised in a church denomination, very similar to the RCC. I don't understand exactly how it happened, but the unspoken rules that you don't question authority, anyone in clergy status is the unquestionable authority, anyone in the pews has no chance of correctly understanding scripture, and therefore needs the church officials to interpret for them--these rules rang loud and clear, and since I was raised in it, and it was the only thing I knew, I was bound by it, to the point where I too could not seperate myself from church doctrine, or attacks on the church, from attacks directed at me. This is the kind of bondage the occult uses to hang on to its members, and I see it displayed in you too. Go back through this thread and see if you can find anything me, Robo, or Boot said against you personally, but you have taken it that way and have accused us of attacking you personally. That illustrates there is a bondage there between you and the RCC that shouldn't exist. Jesus died to free us from that sort of thing, how dare a church, operating under the guise of His name, subject its members to it still.

I am a christian who serves the Lord as an HVAC/R tech, at XYZ church, and in variouse other ways, as He calls and leads. My identity is not found in what I do, or where I attend church, but it is found in Him alone. It is to Him alone I turn for understanding.

Jas 5:17 Elijah was a human being like us, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain and there was no rain on the land for three years and six months!

Who, amongst the RCC clergy, is better than Elijah? Elijah was heralded as one of the greatest prophets of the OT, but James says he was a man, just like us, no better, no worse. Who amongst the clergy is better than you? NO ONE. In fact, I suspect that you are probly more intelligent than many of them. If then you are on the same plane as the clergy--from the Father to the Pope, who amongst any of you is more qualified to understand what the scriptures say? Only the one who is willing to hear Jesus speak. Remember Peters confession, and Jesus' answer?

Mat 16:15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
Mat 16:16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered him, "You are blessed, Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father in heaven!


True scriptural understanding only comes from the Father, not from people. People can tell you things, and you can know them, but understanding is another story, that only God can reveal, and He reveals it to each heart that is willing to listen to Him, not people. God uses people, but we are never to believe what we hear without asking Him first, as Acts 17:11, and Mt. 23:10 says. Also, since God reveals understanding to us, there is nothing standing in the way of us reading and understanding the scriptures ourselves with His guidence--except a church, or belief system that calls Him a liar while telling us we can't. Remember what Jesus said, to Peter and the disciples in Mt. 23:8,

Mat 23:8 But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have one Teacher and you are all brothers.


They had one teacher [Jesus] and they were all brothers--equals. Noone is greater, or lesser than anyone else, from the Pope, to the newest convert from paganism, and no one is more or less able to receive Gods understanding as He gives it. That is why we can say read the Bible yourself, and that is why we can wind up with real similar belief systems having never met each other, or attended the same church, as long as it is the same God we look to for our understanding.

[TB]

John 21: 25 "There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written."
What were those things that He did that were not recorded for us? Unless this is known, it cannot be claimed that it supports any doctrine. That would fall under the logic fallacy of an Appeal to Ignorance


TB, if I accused America of creating world poverty, an illegal war in Iraq, cultural imperialism, polluting the environmnet, etc, and concluded that it was evil would you come to her defence?



is your claim true? I would concede that our Government is evil, and the Country is quickly becoming more and more evil, but your argument does not lead to the conclusion. The non-sequiter committed has more to do with false premisis, but I would agree that the conclusion is true.

[RoBoTeq]

Understanding that my response will fall on deaf ears and blind eyes of the author, it still affords a response;

John 21: 25 "There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written."
This passage in no way supports non-canonized writings about Jesus but rather states that Jesus did more then is written in the canonized books. To claim differently goes against every religion based on scripture but in particular goes against the RCC's claim to be based solely on scripture.

Boot, I'm not sure I can recall Jesus talking about God's self-awareness.
Why would Jesus refer to something that is obvious to all of the Judeo-Christian faith?

TB, if I accused America of creating world poverty, an illegal war in Iraq, cultural imperialism, polluting the environmnet, etc, and concluded that it was evil would you come to her defence? Only issues defendable should be defended. Has the U.S. created world poverty? Of course not. Maybe certain aspects of the U.S. has contributed to world poverty, but the U.S. has certainly not created it. Is the war on Iraq illegal? Only in the eyes of far left liberals. Has the U.S. created cultural Imperialism? Again, only in the eyes of an extreme leftist. Polluting the environment? See China and Russia for the top polluted cities and then look up pollution in Mexico City. Just what do all of these extreme leftist opinions have to do with theology?


Jesus speaks many times of His Church, gives the apostles commands to teach, and gives conditions of discipleship. The numerous fractions and ways of Protestantism do not disprove Christ's words.
Jesus's church is the congregation of believers and not any organized relious faction. This attempt to justify one religous organization by using Jesus is blasphemy at it's worst.

Just my opinion, of course.

[TB]

Understanding that my response will fall on deaf ears and blind eyes of the author, it still affords a response;
This passage in no way supports non-canonized writings about Jesus but rather states that Jesus did more then is written in the canonized books. To claim differently goes against every religion based on scripture but in particular goes against the RCC's claim to be based solely on scripture.

Good catch Robin

[bootlen]

Boot, I'm not sure I can recall Jesus talking about God's self-awareness.



Allow me to share. Just for a beginning..."I AM who I AM"..."say that I AM sent you." Gen. 3:13, 14

"I AM." Jn. 18:6

Ya know, only God can make that claim. So I'd say He is pretty Self-aware.

[bootlen]

.

TB, if I accused America of creating world poverty, an illegal war in Iraq, cultural imperialism, polluting the environmnet, etc, and concluded that it was evil would you come to her defence?


I'd like to answer that, also.

Not if it were true. I am prepared to kill/die in defense of truth.

"America...right or wrong"? That is not God's way.

[RoBoTeq]

I'd like to answer that, also.

Not if it were true. I am prepared to kill/die in defense of truth.

"America...right or wrong"? That is not God's way.
This comment allows me to define my moralistic values of God and country. While I do not adhere to a "my country, right or wrong" set of values, I do adhere to God's will fully because there can be no wrong in God's will.

[bootlen]

I do adhere to God's will fully...

I won't make that claim because I can't make that claim.:( But I give it the best shot I can.:)

Edit: But I know what you're saying...

[RoBoTeq]

I won't make that claim because I can't make that claim.:( But I give it the best shot I can.:)

Edit: But I know what you're saying...
Good point. I also can only attempt.