Congrats to the UAW

[jmac00]

they just killed the big 3 bail out?

Congratulations:mad:

[Mr Bill]

A $14 billion emergency bailout for U.S. automakers collapsed in the Senate Thursday night after the United Auto Workers refused to accede to Republican demands for swift wage cuts. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said he was "terribly disappointed" about the demise of an emerging bipartisan deal to rescue Detroit's Big Three.
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Word out that the UAW wouldn't agree to swift wage concessions in 2009 so the bill is done for now. Now we know who the greedy self centered ones are. They would rather let the Big 3 fail rather than bring wages in line. All of their concession talk is bs. Let GM go into chapter 11 and cut the unions anyway, Chrysler can just go away. Ford is in better shape and will probably make it anyway. The UAW will lose in the end. They think they are bigger than the Congress. The Congress (at least some of them) will be a lot tougher than any automaker. They won't roll over. The public is sick of it and some in Congress are too.

Harry disappointed? nah! can't be, I would say we should all get ready for a lot of disappointments, biggest one starting in January. :eek:

[Frostie]

Huh? The U.A.W. weren't the ones looking for a bailout to keep their company afloat? I do think their wages are out of line, but this bailout deal was a deal between the tax payers(Congress) and the auto companies. The auto companies are the ones to be negociating with their employees, not congress. Seems like the Republicans are scapegoating the UAW.

[Mr Bill]

Why doesn’t the government just use the $14 billion as cash vouchers towards a new (American) car for the American populous? That would generate business and help consumers. Then, qualifying citizens can get a new car. Whatever the government does, it has to put a frown on everyone’s face, except for cooperate executives. :eek:

[Mr Bill]

Huh? The U.A.W. weren't the ones looking for a bailout to keep their company afloat?

Do some folks believe the stuff they write? yea right I am sure the Unions balked at the bailout and fought it tooth and nail, well if they did they should really be happy about now, right? :rolleyes:

[Frostie]

Do some folks believe the stuff they write? yea right I am sure the Unions balked at the bailout and fought it tooth and nail, well if they did they should really be happy about now, right? :rolleyes:

Sure the union wanted the bailout, but the Senate were demanding concessions from them when the unions weren't the ones at the Congressional hearings asking for the money. ]

These are the additional concession brought into the bill *tonight*. How the hell could ANYONE make such sweeping decisions on such important matters in the timeframe of a few hours? It is rediculous, and while I in no way support unions this looks like a complete scape goat and the senate was never going to support the bill either way.

Why not blame the bondholders? The bondholders weren't asked to make a decision TONIGHT.

*Immediately provide federal funds requested by GM and Chrysler to keep them out of bankruptcy, but with additional "covenants."

* Require GM and Chrysler to reduce their outstanding unsecured debt by at least two-thirds by March 15, 2009, or be forced to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy at that time.

* Require GM and Chrysler to force their bondholders to accept equity for debt.

* Require UAW to take action to reduce labor costs only after the UAW sees the bondholders take a haircut.

* Require UAW to accept equity for half of the payments owed by automakers to the UAW-aligned trust fund known as a voluntary employee beneficiary association (VEBA).

* Require the "all-in" labor costs and work rules of the Detroit Three be immediately brought on par with foreign carmakers such as Nissan, Toyota and Honda.

* End the union's jobs bank that requires payments to some autoworkers up to four years after their jobs ended.

[Frostie]

You have to be able to look at these subjects clearly and without bias. The media is trying to spin this as anti-union propoganda, when the truth is it was Senate politics that failed to deliver the bailout.

[Mr Bill]

The media is trying to spin this as anti-union propoganda, when the truth is it was Senate politics that failed to deliver the bailout.

The media is just doing what they do best, If a business model does not work, then you fix it. This bridge loan would not do that. It would simply delay the inevitable. Along with government regulations, the UAW shares a lot of the blame for threatening strikes if their excessive demands were not met. The only way to solve this problem is to force them into Chapter 11 so that they will have to restructure. If the government, and more specifically you and I as taxpayers, keep giving out handouts then nothing will be solved and the American car industry will remain uncompetitive. The only way through this is to force them to file for Chapter 11. The Big 3 can then renegotiate and restructure with the greedy UAW. Their current business model clearly does not work, and throwing money at it will not fix it but only delay the inevitable. I support one GOP Senator who suggested that the Big 3 file for Chapter 11, and the money for the proposed bridge loan be used to back warranties instead.

[Frostie]

The media is just doing what they do best, If a business model does not work, then you fix it. This bridge loan would not do that. It would simply delay the inevitable. Along with government regulations, the UAW shares a lot of the blame for threatening strikes if their excessive demands were not met. The only way to solve this problem is to force them into Chapter 11 so that they will have to restructure. If the government, and more specifically you and I as taxpayers, keep giving out handouts then nothing will be solved and the American car industry will remain uncompetitive. The only way through this is to force them to file for Chapter 11. The Big 3 can then renegotiate and restructure with the greedy UAW. Their current business model clearly does not work, and throwing money at it will not fix it but only delay the inevitable. I support one GOP Senator who suggested that the Big 3 file for Chapter 11, and the money for the proposed bridge loan be used to back warranties instead.

You are right, but we aren't here discussing whether or not the companies should get the loan or not. We are discussing the fact that the UAW have been put on the chopping block for the failed legislation. If the legislation fails, then so be it. But the reason behind the failure should be understood as the truth(whatever it may be) and not "Congrats to the UAW".

[the mojo]

This guy has hindsight and knows how to run a buisness and knows how to make money....
When the Democrats and "SENOIR Rebublicans were running around like fools, this guy had it all together as we would say,having your s**t in one sock.:D

And the best part about him is,this junior Senator took command and got the job done.

Did I mention he has hindsight and a natural ability to see beyond the BS.
Oh and he did'nt start out life with a silverspoon in his mouth, but $8,000 dollars and a shovel in construction in the 70's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Corker

[Frostie]

This guy has hindsight and knows how to run a buisness and knows how to make money....
When the Democrats and "SENOIR Rebublicans were running around like fools, this guy had it all together as we would say,having your s**t in one sock.:D

And the best part about him is,this junior Senator took command and got the job done.

Did I mention he has hindsight and a natural ability to see beyond the BS.
Oh and he did'nt start out life with a silverspoon in his mouth, but $8,000 dollars and a shovel in construction in the 70's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Corker

He didn't get anything done, the bill didn't pass. Do you believe he was motivated to bail out the auto industry? If he had any intent on doing it, he pretty much sunk that ship by asking for the amendments that most would consider erouneous in the limited time frame they had to work with. If he had no intent to bail out the auto industry then yes, he got the job done.

I find this auto sector scrutiny hard to understand considering the fact they just sent 700billion to wall street, WITH NO DEBATE, NO OVERSIGHT and NO TRANSPARENCY. They still haven't told us who they gave the money to.

[The Doctor]

Toyota--manufactured 9.37 million automobiles worldwide (during a year)to the tune of a 18 billion dollar profit.
GM --manufactured 9.37 million automobiles worldwide (same time frame) to a 34 billion dollar loss. The reference to the info is here (http://www.bloomberg.com/avp/avp.htm?N=av&T=Cardin%20Says%20Auto%20Failure%20May%20Be%20%60D eath%20Nail'%20of%20Industry&clipSRC=mms://media2.bloomberg.com/cache/vHRgqnj6Ggbw.asf).

I kinda liked the title "Congrats to the UAW", although your point about the bailout legislation is noted... :p

[jmac00]

what congress should have asked for is ACROSS THE BOARD pay cuts from the CEO and BOD (Board of Directors) to the Janitors.

This NOT just a UAW issue.

This is much worse than some might think.

My bet is sales of GM & Chrysler are going to drop like a stone, much worse than what we have seen in the last couple of months. Who is going to buy a car from a company that is virtually bankrupt. How are they going to get warranty work done? where are repair parts going to come from.

I would suggest to you nice folks that the UAW & Congress just moved this country one step closer to a DEPRESSION:(

unless something can be worked out in the next week or so.

[the mojo]

From Pelosi to Bush to Dr.Paulson.......

Take two TARP's and check back next year.

Dr. John call your office.

[mrs reb77]

GM to temporarily close 20 factories to cut 250,000 vehicles from 1st-quarter production
http://start.localnet.com/article.php?article=D951E7Q80.html

General Motors Corp. said Friday it will temporarily close 20 factories across North America and make sweeping cuts to its vehicle production as it tries to adjust to dramatically weaker automobile demand.

So, was this already in the plan as presented to Congress or is this a result of the failure of the bailout bill?

[Mr Bill]

Riddle me this! Why should people making $45/hour get bailed out by people making $10/hour? :rolleyes:

[Mr Bill]

Do we UAW "United Air Conditioning Workers" have a spokes person in our corner? :D

[bigtime]

Riddle me this! Why should people making $45/hour get bailed out by people making $10/hour? :rolleyes:

That is a real good question. And the answer is, they shoudnt. They need to cut their costs, not ask others to give them money.

[jmac00]

Not if you listened to the UAW president this morning.

he said that the union has all ready made "substantial concessions"

I don't know what those concessions are?

But I think if the Fed doesn't bail them out, the UAW is going to take a SUBSTANTIAL hit in bankruptcy court.

if the B3 doesn't get the bail out, the first AND second quarter of next year is going to be extremely tough.

I don't know about you guys, but I hope you have a pretty good savings account, because the first half of next year is going to be very bad.

[mrs reb77]

Some interesting stories about Chrysler

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aJuB1QdMXcog&refer=home
http://www.freep.com/article/20081206/BUSINESS01/812060363

[rich pickering]

Listening to CNN tonite, the Senators that voted against the bailout tended to be southern and had foriegn carmakers with plants in their ridings.

Any truth?

[acmanko]

Listening to CNN tonite, the Senators that voted against the bailout tended to be southern and had foriegn carmakers with plants in their ridings.

Any truth?yes, lots of truth. but they were elected to represent the people of their respective States, who for the most part are anti-union. but why are they anti union.Historically the large corporations and the unions who work for them did not want to invest in the southern states.

[The Doctor]

These votes are just "show pipe". Mr. Bush is going to get them some dough if he has to take it from the TARP program. :rolleyes:

Did anyone notice that Harry Reid voted against this, but for procedural reasons?

Here is a link to the Senate page on the vote... (http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=110&session=2&vote=00215)where is Mr. Obama?

[mrs reb77]

Remember, Mr Obama is the PE now, he resigned his seat really quickly so that Gov. Blagojevich could sell it! :D
Seriously though, it is a bit odd that he resigned it so quickly in light of the fact that his party does not have an overwhelming majority and so many strange things happen in lame duck sessions. Doesn't seem like real good representation for his electorate over there in Illinois. However, it does keep him from having to vote or not vote on controversial matters....like this bill! ;)

[acmanko]

Remember, Mr Obama is the PE now, he resigned his seat really quickly so that Gov. Blagojevich could sell it! :D
Seriously though, it is a bit odd that he resigned it so quickly in light of the fact that his party does not have an overwhelming majority and so many strange things happen in lame duck sessions. Doesn't seem like real good representation for his electorate over there in Illinois. However, it does keep him from having to vote or not vote on controversial matters....like this bill! ;)
I see baracks green jobs are taking hold already. we have some here who are so green with envy, they have taken the job as forum jester.

[hvacker]

Riddle me this! Why should people making $45/hour get bailed out by people making $10/hour? :rolleyes:

This won't fly Bill. You blame the worker for getting the best deal they could but say nothing about management??
Condemn the worker as they are an ez target.
In Washington all were not present. Parts suppliers, bond holders, dealers, on and on . Just the UAW. Only they were asked to bleed.
What this is about is Union busting. Moving blame from where it belongs to the guy on the bottom of the pile.
Clearly you along with others here are victims of media bias and political propaganda.
Workers don't kill a company any more than if you worked for a company that went broke could blame you. But the management will find a way to look innocent as lambs.

[Mr Bill]

Workers don't kill a company any more than if you worked for a company that went broke could blame you. .

Do what? workers don't kill company's? Ok I will just let my install crew leave the next few homes after the new gas furnace has been installed, with the gas line off and the stop wide open and see if this don't put me out of business. :rolleyes:

[hvacker]

Do what? workers don't kill company's? Ok I will just let my install crew leave the next few homes after the new gas furnace has been installed, with the gas line off and the stop wide open and see if this don't put me out of business. :rolleyes:

I see this as a management problem Bill. Lack of training and instruction. Maybe not willing to pay for competent journeymen. Not communicating your expectations.
And don't roll your eyes at me. I might think your flirting.

[Mr Bill]

This won't fly Bill. You blame the worker for getting the best deal they could but say nothing about management??


You are putting the cart before the horse here in you thinking I am Pro or Con unions, I am neither, I just asked a simple question, Why should people making $45/hour get bailed out by people making $10/hour? and got a simple answer. I don't know who makes what, rather it's the mgmt. or worker, but I do know there is a lot of folks making a lot less, there asking to spend there tax dollars on to bail them out. You can put the blame on this whole mess on many different things, but when it comes right down to it, the poor are being asked bail the rich or richer out, doesn't something seem wrong even in your world about this picture?

[Mr Bill]

I see this as a management problem Bill. Lack of training and instruction.


You missed my whole point, I was literally talking about trained, experienced, Professionals leaving the gas lines off, they could put me out of business if they really wanted to, so my point was and still is, that employees can put business's out of business and you said they don't. I know my example is a little far fetched, but I was just trying to make a point, this can and trust me has happened many times in the good old USA.

[bigtime]

This won't fly Bill. You blame the worker for getting the best deal they could but say nothing about management??
Condemn the worker as they are an ez target.
In Washington all were not present. Parts suppliers, bond holders, dealers, on and on . Just the UAW. Only they were asked to bleed.
What this is about is Union busting. Moving blame from where it belongs to the guy on the bottom of the pile.
Clearly you along with others here are victims of media bias and political propaganda.
Workers don't kill a company any more than if you worked for a company that went broke could blame you. But the management will find a way to look innocent as lambs.

All I know, is their cars suck, they all make more money than me, Im not buying one of their cars, and I dont want any of my money to subsidize them. Them, are the uaw and management.

If foreign cars were not available, imagine how much a big three car would cost and how crappy it would be.

[whec720]

All I know, is their cars suck, they all make more money than me, Im not buying one of their cars, and I dont want any of my money to subsidize them. Them, are the uaw and management.

If foreign cars were not available, imagine how much a big three car would cost and how crappy it would be.

Another amen.

If the big three refuse to get their act together, then fold. If the UAW goes down with them, so be it. Enough is enough with extorting taxpayers.

[hvacker]

You missed my whole point, I was literally talking about trained, experienced, Professionals leaving the gas lines off, they could put me out of business if they really wanted to, so my point was and still is, that employees can put business's out of business and you said they don't. I know my example is a little far fetched, but I was just trying to make a point, this can and trust me has happened many times in the good old USA.

That example is sabotage. The Molly MaGuires or the Luddites.I was thinking more about Detroit's management problems and taking the money and running and the need to find a scape goat.


Whatever an average UAW person makes ( I've heard several numbers) it's plainly a very good job. If the car makers survive I'm fairly certain the UAW will make concessions. I know I would rather than deal with no future. But the management should be the ones to take the major hit. Suppliers, bond holders, stock owners, and all else concerned with survival should be learning to swim here and need to be part of the solution.

I could understand one company getting it wrong but all of them?
I guess I wonder about the willingness to throw money at the money but not value workers.
I still might buy a Ford. They began to shift gears a few years ago.