Armaflex Dripping!

[man from trane]

I've got a Source combo rack system on a smallish grocery store with a Low-Temp suction line that runs in an "L" shape from the last freezer evap out to the rack. It's 3" at the rack and goes down to 2" at the last evap. I would guess the total length is about 120'. There are only 4 evaps on it.

It is insulated with 1/2" Armaflex. The problem is that it is dripping at every joint, and the insulation in some places where there is no joint is squishy, wet and slimy (non-technical terms, I know) and dripping on the floor and shopper's heads. The temp in the store is about 72°F during the day and setback to 82° from 10 pm to 4 am. I have not checked the RH but it's probably around 55% during the day. That's typical for this climate and there is no dehumidification equipment on the package AC units so it is what it is.

The store is 3 years old and this has been happening for at least 6 months. The company that builds these stores says they always use this same insulation with no problems. The medium temp suction line has no problems and has the same insulation.

I'm not sure why this is happening or where to go with it. I'm thinking 2 possibilities:

A. The salt air in a tropical climate is breaking the insulation down prematurely. My condenser coil on the rack is badly corroded so I know the air must be corrosive to metals, but I don't know if Armaflex is affected by that.

B. Improper installation. But how do you install it incorrectly? Don't you just slip it on?

I have no experience with insulation except cutting it away to get at something under it. I've never seen it break down or drip. What's going on here? :confused:

[zzonko]

The arma should be glued at every butt end to form a unpenetrable vapor barrier. This is even more important in high-humidity areas like yours.

[man from trane]

The arma should be glued at every butt end to form a unpenetrable vapor barrier. This is even more important in high-humidity areas like yours.

OK, it's glued, but obviously not very well or it wouldn't be dripping from the joints. Maybe they used the wrong glue? Since you probably can't even get a bottle of Elmer's 9 months out of the year on this crazy island it's possible they didn't have the correct glue so they used whatever they could find at Jamal's Hardware Hut.

First of all, does everyone agree with the installation company that 1/2" Amaflex is suitable for a -25 Deg. F pipe in this environment? They insist that this is what they use everywhere.

[absoair]

When I worked in markets installing we used 3/4" on the suction, 1/2" on the liquid. That was 5 years ago. Not sure but I would suspect it's mainly the joints. Now that all that moisture and slime is in there would probably be best to change it all out, up grade to 3/4" on that line.

Sometimes the installers don't let the glue set before they make the joint. They move on and the joint pulls apart.
Good Luck

[gmfridg]

On low temp and med temp. i always use 3/4''wall. Rubber cement the joints and 100% silicone all around the joint just to be on the safe side. 1/2'' on hi temp units. Costs a little more but worth it in the long run.

[jpsmith1cm]

1/2" is probably not enough.

3/4 or a full inch is more like it. With proper joints.

Now that its wet, its junk.

[Dchappa21]

Yep I always like to get 1" on freezer's and never had a problem.

[zzonko]

http://www.armacell.com/www/armacell/INETFAQ.nsf/vFrame1/1D63FFFF98977B238025709E000CB18D

[uguysagain]

man zzonko that was a great link, but for man frome trane 3/4 w armaflex is best and when connecting two insulation pieces i use armaflex clue and also wrap with black duct tape it has worked great for me

[sumdumacguy]

i'd bid on striping it all off and putting 3/4 back on also could be to big id for pipe... some guys get lazy. is it icing back?

[frigeguy]

OK, it's glued, but obviously not very well or it wouldn't be dripping from the joints. Maybe they used the wrong glue? Since you probably can't even get a bottle of Elmer's 9 months out of the year on this crazy island it's possible they didn't have the correct glue so they used whatever they could find at Jamal's Hardware Hut.

First of all, does everyone agree with the installation company that 1/2" Amaflex is suitable for a -25 Deg. F pipe in this environment? They insist that this is what they use everywhere.

Ok 3/4 wall on the low temp is standard, ARMAFLEX 520 adhesive works well, (10,000 cans later and atleast 5000 miles of pipe)..trick of it is to compress the insulation slighly apply glue to both sides and I twist it, a bit on the pipe helps. Your lines are saddled correctly ? The person or persons that put 1/2 wall on low temp may have not installed the lines correctly either.

[sumdumacguy]

also you can get a pattern off the armaflex for mitering. :)
a good sticking habit to get into would be letting the glue air until it gives off strands like melted cheese when connecting.;)

[man from trane]

Thanks for all the input! Looking at it closely, the parts between the joints are dry and frost-free on the tops and sides, but moisture has dripped from the joints and spread across the bottom, ruining the Armaflex.

So is it safe to say that 1/2" was probably borderline sufficient, and the poor installation techniques (leaky joints) most likely caused the failure? That is what it looks like to me. The insulation that is located outside is rotted and falling off the pipes, like it has been there for 50 years. Obviously this stuff is not waterproof.

The customer wants to know why this happened. It's obviously going to have to be stripped and replaced. I'm not sure how that's going to be possible when it seems like the freezers would have to be shut down completely for a while, unless we do one small section at a time. How long does the glue take to dry? Is this something I can do easily myself or should I get a plumber invovled? I try to stick to maintenance and smaller repairs instead of long, drawn-out projects since this is a part-time occupation for me.

[frigeguy]

Thanks for all the input! Looking at it closely, the parts between the joints are dry and frost-free on the tops and sides, but moisture has dripped from the joints and spread across the bottom, ruining the Armaflex.

So is it safe to say that 1/2" was probably borderline sufficient, and the poor installation techniques (leaky joints) most likely caused the failure? That is what it looks like to me. The insulation that is located outside is rotted and falling off the pipes, like it has been there for 50 years. Obviously this stuff is not waterproof.

The customer wants to know why this happened. It's obviously going to have to be stripped and replaced. I'm not sure how that's going to be possible when it seems like the freezers would have to be shut down completely for a while, unless we do one small section at a time. How long does the glue take to dry? Is this something I can do easily myself or should I get a plumber invovled? I try to stick to maintenance and smaller repairs instead of long, drawn-out projects since this is a part-time occupation for me.

The best way to do it would be to defrost the line cut it a an ideal location, tear off the old stuff in both directions from the cut reweld and glue 3/4 wall on as much as possible while its on a vacume pump and restart..you may have 3-4 hours max, a helper would be an asset.

However it would be possible to get 2 5/8 by 3/4 wall and split it over existing 2 1/8 by 1/2. Not the best way but it has been done. Lots of glue and tyraps.

Outside we use armaflex with a white UV resistant paint made for this purpose.

[man from trane]

The best way to do it would be to defrost the line cut it a an ideal location, tear off the old stuff in both directions from the cut reweld and glue 3/4 wall on as much as possible while its on a vacume pump and restart..you may have 3-4 hours max, a helper would be an asset.

However it would be possible to get 2 5/8 by 3/4 wall and split it over existing 2 1/8 by 1/2. Not the best way but it has been done. Lots of glue and tyraps.

Outside we use armaflex with a white UV resistant paint made for this purpose.

I'm not cutting the pipe. :eek:

The diameter of the 3" pipe with the exisiting insulation is 4", so do you mean 4" by 3/4 wall over the old insulation? Or are you saying tear off the old stuff and split the new stuff over the pipe? Could I pump the system down, rip off the old insulation, use a torch to melt any ice on the pipe and then split new 3" by 3/4 wall over it and have the glue dry in a couple hours? I can't shut this freezer down very long but with the doors all closed it should be ok for a few hours at night.

[zzonko]

If you dont cut the pipe, you will have to split and perfectly glue all the arma. Chances are that you will be in the same condition as you are now in no time, unless you can make sure that every cut is completely sealed. Not very likely.

Or you could go with a fiberglass product:

http://www.knaufusa.com/products/commercial__industrial/pipe_and_equipment_insulation/knauf_1000°_pipe_insulation.aspx

[jpsmith1cm]

I wouldn't cut the line either. Too much chance for contamination.

Remove old insulation by whatever means.

Split the insulation longways (I have seen pre-split).

Using the armaflex glue mentioned, glue all seams.

Best technique is to wait for glue to get tacky then press together. I like black duct tape to cover the seams with.

Do yourself a HUGE favor. Wear old clothes and old gloves. That glue is worse than PVC cement.

[man from trane]

If you dont cut the pipe, you will have to split and perfectly glue all the arma. Chances are that you will be in the same condition as you are now in no time, unless you can make sure that every cut is completely sealed. Not very likely.

Or you could go with a fiberglass product:

http://www.knaufusa.com/products/commercial__industrial/pipe_and_equipment_insulation/knauf_1000°_pipe_insulation.aspx

That stuff makes my hands itch just looking at it. :D I like the looks of it, but how would I seal the ends? I would probably leave the old stuff in place where the pipe hangers are because I don't see how to get around the hangers with the new fiberglass. I would need to transition from the new to the old and back to the new again.

[sumdumacguy]

That stuff makes my hands itch just looking at it. :D I like the looks of it, but how would I seal the ends? I would probably leave the old stuff in place where the pipe hangers are because I don't see how to get around the hangers with the new fiberglass. I would need to transition from the new to the old and back to the new again.

I've done this b4 at stores on freezer line ups and its not hard just get some armaflex and look at the box it comes in and practice your mitering to make it look nice. dont cut any pipe you can get the armaflex pre cut long ways with adhesive strips(more expensive)but i would still use the glue. every couple of dfst let the box come down to temp. go have a smoke and do it again. oh and make sure you get a scissor lift. it'll take a month and two guys that way

[-frozen-ocean-]

If you were to split the armaflex for any reason the best way is to cut the oval side of the armaflex this way stays tight when glueing. also when you apply glue do both sides and i like to move the cut area back and forth trust me it gets more tacky and seals better. and for those hangers if you can't get flex around them use sprayfoam the stuff really works for occasions like this. and if you thought armaflex glue was bad to get off your hands sprayfoam is 50 times worse. :D

[neumonic]

i have had a few days with a combo of spray foam, pvc glue and also armaflex glue on my hands now that doesnt wash off too well maybe i should consider wearing my gloves more often :D

[man from trane]

I'm going to talk to a contractor and get a bid. This project will take more time and work than I like to invest.

Thanks for all the input!

[sumdumacguy]

I'm going to talk to a contractor and get a bid. This project will take more time and work than I like to invest.

Thanks for all the input!

man, this is so easy to do and its all t&m:(

[crackertech]

man, this is so easy to do and its all t&m:(

Ditto on that it's easy money.

[man from trane]

man, this is so easy to do and its all t&m:(


It sounds easy enough, I'd just like to practice on something less critical. The people on this island love to sue, they call it the "Caribbean Lottery". If someone slips on the wet floor because of a few drops of water there goes my insurance premium, which is already about 8 times higher than what you pay in the states. :eek: I was going to drill some holes with my corded hammerdrill yesterday but when I thought about my extension cord running across the floor with customers walking around I decided to do it next week before the store opens.

[frigeguy]

I'm not cutting the pipe. :eek:

The diameter of the 3" pipe with the exisiting insulation is 4", so do you mean 4" by 3/4 wall over the old insulation? Or are you saying tear off the old stuff and split the new stuff over the pipe? Could I pump the system down, rip off the old insulation, use a torch to melt any ice on the pipe and then split new 3" by 3/4 wall over it and have the glue dry in a couple hours? I can't shut this freezer down very long but with the doors all closed it should be ok for a few hours at night.

The best way is to get rid of it ....cut the pipe plug the ends (to avoid contamination ) and remove old, slide on new, not split. It doesn't take long..if glued properly your problem is solved. Any other attempt may or may not work. I have seen 6 inch ABS split in half and placed under the line a sort of band-aid fix.

[Phase Loss]

i agree. you could split the new 3/4" wall down the middle. however it will look ugly and you will need to seal up 100% of the seems or quickly you will have the same situation on your hands.

or do it the way it should have been done. cut the lines, plug them. slip the new 3/4" wall over the pipe and only have to glue the joints then wrap with black duct tape. seamless looks better and last longer.

or go the cheap-o-route and hang some drain pans under the leaking suction lines and run a plastic tube to a drain. i am not a fan of this option, but have seen it.

[man from trane]

i agree. you could split the new 3/4" wall down the middle. however it will look ugly and you will need to seal up 100% of the seems or quickly you will have the same situation on your hands.

or do it the way it should have been done. cut the lines, plug them. slip the new 3/4" wall over the pipe and only have to glue the joints then wrap with black duct tape. seamless looks better and last longer.

or go the cheap-o-route and hang some drain pans under the leaking suction lines and run a plastic tube to a drain. i am not a fan of this option, but have seen it.

That idea had occured to me, but won't the existing insulation get worse and start falling apart completely?

[jpsmith1cm]

Yeah, but with a pan, nobody sees it. :D

[Phase Loss]

You can count on it. in fact the insulation will end up plugging the plastic drain tube and now you will have a water fall overflowing onto the floor...hence a secondary line set drain pan! you can keep adding pans or just fix it the first time :D

I never worked on an island..but it would be a cool effect if you split open some bamboo and cover the refrigeration lines with the bamboo

[sumdumguy]

I remember having to do some insulation on some racks but I got plenty of exerience mitering over and over cause I suck at it. that line set going out to your low temp is a 3 day job with a scissor lift. if i lived close i'd do it...its slow:cool:

there is a pattern to get your 45* & 90*s off on the box that armaflex comes in;)

[Dchappa21]

i agree. you could split the new 3/4" wall down the middle. however it will look ugly and you will need to seal up 100% of the seems or quickly you will have the same situation on your hands.

or do it the way it should have been done. cut the lines, plug them. slip the new 3/4" wall over the pipe and only have to glue the joints then wrap with black duct tape. seamless looks better and last longer.

or go the cheap-o-route and hang some drain pans under the leaking suction lines and run a plastic tube to a drain. i am not a fan of this option, but have seen it.

LOL.. Yep I've seen the rain gutters before.:D

Do it the right way pump it down cut the pipe, plugg it and slide it over. It's so much easier.

[-frozen-ocean-]

I never worked on an island..but it would be a cool effect if you split open some bamboo and cover the refrigeration lines with the bamboo


now thats funny:D it would look good too

[man from trane]

I never worked on an island..but it would be a cool effect if you split open some bamboo and cover the refrigeration lines with the bamboo


now thats funny:D it would look good too

It's Costco, not Congo. :rolleyes: :D Thanks for the idea!

I'm going to see about getting an experienced tech from off-island to tackle it and I'll help him.

[frigeguy]

It's Costco, not Congo. :rolleyes: :D Thanks for the idea!

I'm going to see about getting an experienced tech from off-island to tackle it and I'll help him.

Send the plane ticket ...i'm booking my holidays as we speak. Hey how much does this pay per hour? forget it, i'll do it for free it's -15f here now . The Great White North. Well atleast we have good beer...:cool:

[man from trane]

Send the plane ticket ...i'm booking my holidays as we speak. Hey how much does this pay per hour? forget it, i'll do it for free it's -15f here now . The Great White North. Well atleast we have good beer...:cool:


It's cold here today, 76 F. The locals are wearing hooded jackets- no kidding! We have Presidente and Carib, but who needs beer? We drink rum! The good stuff (Cruzan) made right here is 5 bucks a bottle. :cool: Drinking and driving is legal, as long as you aren't drunk. If you are drunk they just take your drink and make you walk. :eek: Cigs are $1.25. Many of the locals don't even know pot is illegal. But enough about paradise...:D

[lovetowork]

pump system down, every 30' or so cut pipe, throw duct tape over opening. slide armaflex as far as you can each way.... you'll have to manually slide each piece. 1" armaflex on low temp side...3/4" armaflex on medium temp. 1/2" on liquid. glue and duct tape between each and every joint. when you need to make cuts in the armaflex naked hacksaw blade is a great tool... armaflexing is an art :) bad flexing job ruins a good piping job. when you re-coupling the pipe you'll have to make sure you sandcloth the pipe due to oil from the old armaflex.

[maxmejia]

You have to change the all insulation, once is wet is ruin. My advice, use 3/4" minimun", and remember to re-insulate if you used the one that is factory open and have special glue for is oK, otherwise you have to open the circuit (one by one) to slide the armaflex. Use the proper glue (usually dry very fast), and you don't have to shut down the system completly. Over here in Dominican Republic we have the same weather conditions more or less.
Note: For that temperature I used over here 1"

[sumdumguy]

You have to change the all insulation, once is wet is ruin. My advice, use 3/4" minimun", and remember to re-insulate if you used the one that is factory open and have special glue for is oK, otherwise you have to open the circuit (one by one) to slide the armaflex. Use the proper glue (usually dry very fast), and you don't have to shut down the system completly. Over here in Dominican Republic we have the same weather conditions more or less.
Note: For that temperature I used over here 1"

well said my friend:D

[neumonic]

how'd you make out with that job , did you end up changing out all the armaflex?

[man from trane]

how'd you make out with that job , did you end up changing out all the armaflex?

Nothing happens too fast here in paradise. :rolleyes: We just got finished with the 16 days of Christmas and every other reason for the locals to slack off that you can think of and things are slowly resuming their usual snail's pace.

My business partner is working up an estimate and we are planning to replace the portion of 4 1/8" Arma that is above the walking surface. That is what the owner is concerned about. Hopefully the rest will be ok. If it drips a bit over the freezer box or the loading dock it won't hurt anything. Over the customers heads is a problem. I'll update when it's done. Thanks for all the help! :)

[sumdumguy]

Nothing happens too fast here in paradise. :rolleyes: We just got finished with the 16 days of Christmas and every other reason for the locals to slack off that you can think of and things are slowly resuming their usual snail's pace.

My business partner is working up an estimate and we are planning to replace the portion of 4 1/8" Arma that is above the walking surface. That is what the owner is concerned about. Hopefully the rest will be ok. If it drips a bit over the freezer box or the loading dock it won't hurt anything. Over the customers heads is a problem. I'll update when it's done. Thanks for all the help! :)

I've done this clear back to the motor room b4 @ 2 different Costco"s I wish I was there with ya:(

[man from trane]

I've done this clear back to the motor room b4 @ 2 different Costco"s I wish I was there with ya:(

This is the Caribbean version of Costco, Cost-U-Less. I wonder if they were designed by the same people who insist on using 1/2" Armaflex on everything.

[sumdumguy]

This is the Caribbean version of Costco, Cost-U-Less. I wonder if they were designed by the same people who insist on using 1/2" Armaflex on everything.

I doubt it... but either way its work;)

[lovetowork]

oops