My new Geothermal System

[jongig]

I purchased a new home and had a heating contractor install a forced air, closed loop, 4-ton geothermal system. The system is a Tranquility 27 which is 2 stages and has a third stage that is electric resistance. I've received little information about its workings and we are not really happy with the heat. Besides I hoped my electric bill would not be so high and it's over $200 and for a 2,400 SQ ft house it seems like alot.

I programmed the thermostat for 65 degree days and 70 evenings and 67 degree nights.

The unit can not heat the house on a 30s day from 65 to 70 by the time we go to bed 9-10PM. I was told that I shouldn't set the temperature so low durring the day or I could have the third stage come on sooner. My kids room has never seen 70. My wife thinks we have to suplement our heat by using the LP fireplace.

I've placed temperature probes everywhere.

Temperature of the loop is 32 in and 28 out when it runs for awhile.

Temperature of the air from the unit is either 78-80 or 88-90, first and second stage.

My kids room gets as high as 68 but never 70. I've shut many grates off and so now I hear whistling.

The unit runs nearly all the time.

The house is dry and about 35% humidity.

We're not even cold outside yet and I wonder if we'll be warm and scared of the electric bill.

Thanks very much for taking the time to read this.

[Twilly]

Twilli says call manufacture if contractor isn't helping you and explain your situation

[ambarton]

sounds like u have a bum geo system

[jongig]

I'd really love more information if anyone can help because I would like to understand what is wrong or right.

Thanks.

[ambarton]

to help u understand i need more info like your location and if it is a horizontal loop or a verticle loop system. 32 in is pretty cold mite as well have a standard air to air system

[Twilly]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ibX3TejlZE

[Freezeking2000]

My electric bill is almost that much pluss my oil. Do use electric for washer? Dryer? Range? Water heater? I bet that is 50% of the bill.

[jongig]

The system is 2 bore holes each 300 feet. Pipe going out is 1.25 inch and parallels to 1 inch into the bore holes.

House is well insulated. Gas dryer, gas range. Electric water heater. Two adults working 9-5 M-F. Kid is 8 and in school.

Location is NE-PA, NE of Scranton, Zone 5.

[Twilly]

Twilli's last two bills have been 133 and 116. Twilli all electric and has Coleman water furnace

[Twilly]

Twilli has energy star home, 3000 sq ft

[cmajerus]

I am not a geo expert by any means, but I would guess your probably 2 loops short.

[mike robinson]

Two loops short one ton shy.

[jongig]

I am not a geo expert by any means, but I would guess your probably 2 loops short.


The installer told me 150 feet per ton and so 600 feet makes up the 4 ton. Again according to him.

[homersodyssey]

As Twilli suggested, you should contact the manufacturer and explain the situation.

[cmajerus]

are the bore holes 300' deep, or is there 300' of pipe in each 150' hole?

[jongig]

are the bore holes 300' deep, or is there 300' of pipe in each 150' hole?

The depth of the holes are 300 feet each. I saw the driller and looked at the markings of the GT pipe that went into each hole. I'm sure they went down 300 feet in each hole.

[ISOTHERMAL]

The installer told me 150 feet per ton and so 600 feet makes up the 4 ton. Again according to him.

When I first got into geo units, in my area (SW Missouri), we used 150' of bore hole per ton for 1.5" dia. pipe. 200' of bore hole per ton for 1". I did not get into loop design.
Your loop would not be large enough with using the heat strips in my area and would not work at all in the A/C mode.
Sounds short to me, or not all the loop is being used due to a restriction. The installing contractor should have some design that he goes by, have him show prove to you that the loop is adequate. Has he ever installed one before?

[beenthere]

With that low of a water temp, and air to air would be cheaper to run.
Something not right.
You need your contractor to check it again.
If he can't give you satisfaction. Call the manufacturer and let them know.

[jongig]

I went to the manufacturers website and they don't take inquiries from customers?

[Twilly]

Twilli says contact the distributor then


http://www.climatemaster.com/index/res_locator

[Twilly]

Twilli says we can't solve your problem, you should be complaining to the installing contractor and then the distributor and then the manufacture.

[Roscoe]

Roscoe says



GEO...............??


You got sold a bill a goods.................but hey, take into the equation your carbon foot print yer prolly good to go.............use extra blankets and wear sweaters, you'll feel better..............:D

Sorry I couldn't help my self GEO and Solar.......are Great Concepts.......for green...just .....ask Al Gore.............but....not for comfort.......

as far as the payback.....................heh there ain't none..............but hey yer Green......an ya rack up Carbon Credits..............:D



Twilli forget Al the GoreP..............leave him a message Maybe he'll get back to ya.........:p

[jongig]

Not asking for you to solve the problem but with information I might be better able to ask the contractor the right questions. For instance, someone mentioned the loop temperature is low, but what should it be, because I've asked my contractor and he says the temperature is okay. One of his answers to me was that he would change the thermostat so that the electric strips come on so that we are more comfortable more quickly. But at what cost, electric, so why did I spend so much money on this, to save money.

Temperature outside is 32 right now and my system has been on all evening and never made it to 70 degrees in the house and the loop temperature is fairly constant at 32/28

I am a fairly knowledgeable person and have run a water company for years, am licensed and have extensive knowledge in wells, water, pumps and controls. I just need to be more knowledgeable about this situation I'm in with this system because I have a family and they depend on me to make a home for them comfortable.

Regards.

[RoBoTeq]

Roscoe says



GEO...............??


You got sold a bill a goods.................but hey, take into the equation your carbon foot print yer prolly good to go.............use extra blankets and wear sweaters, you'll feel better..............:D

Sorry I couldn't help my self GEO and Solar.......are Great Concepts.......for green...just .....ask Al Gore.............but....not for comfort.......

as far as the payback.....................heh there ain't none..............but hey yer Green......an ya rack up Carbon Credits..............:D



Twilli forget Al the GoreP..............leave him a message Maybe he'll get back to ya.........:p
Completely useless rhetoric from someone who won't take the time and energy to understand such systems. I have worked with people with 20-30 year old geothermal systems who have had absolutely no problems with comfort.

It's all in the sizing, application and installation; all of which can be screwed up by the wrong people doing the job.

[RoBoTeq]

Not asking for you to solve the problem but with information I might be better able to ask the contractor the right questions. For instance, someone mentioned the loop temperature is low, but what should it be, because I've asked my contractor and he says the temperature is okay. One of his answers to me was that he would change the thermostat so that the electric strips come on so that we are more comfortable more quickly. But at what cost, electric, so why did I spend so much money on this, to save money.

Temperature outside is 32 right now and my system has been on all evening and never made it to 70 degrees in the house and the loop temperature is fairly constant at 32/28

I am a fairly knowledgeable person and have run a water company for years, am licensed and have extensive knowledge in wells, water, pumps and controls. I just need to be more knowledgeable about this situation I'm in with this system because I have a family and they depend on me to make a home for them comfortable.

Regards.
You have one of the better geothermal units on the market today and should not be having these issues.

When you witnessed the drilling process, did you also happen to notice if the well driller filled the well with a thermal grouting? This is an important step that some drillers wrongly don't think is worth the time or money.

Is your pump station a single or two pump system?

[jongig]

Yes they grouted but I didn't actually see them do it but the truck sat in my yard.

The unit has two pumps and I've attached a few pictures.

[Roscoe]

Completely useless rhetoric from someone who won't take the time and energy to understand such systems. I have worked with people with 20-30 year old geothermal systems who have had absolutely no problems with comfort.

It's all in the sizing, application and installation; all of which can be screwed up by the wrong people doing the job.


Completely useless rhetoric from someone who won't take the time and energy to understand such systems.......

.Ohhhhh I think I've taken some time and I am pretty well versed in water source H/P.................;)

Can you justify the added cost of installation, service, pump and control replacement, as far as the dollar savings go over say a 15 or 20 yr period, I feel this is an experiment at best...

..........:rolleyes:

but hey I'm all for experimenting with your money....................;)

So if the job is sized right and installed correctly...............hows the pay back considering all the Variables as Such.........Robin............

The HO being comfortable has little to do with the mechanical s, but more the envelope..........er..........building construction .......loss, gain, infiltration etc.................don't you think..............
================================================== =======================


Completely useless rhetoric from someone who won't take the time and energy to understand such systems

well that was real nice, I don't think you completely understand my philly sarcasm..................;)

I'm not forgetting the OP who has extensive experience in the water movement side of this experiment..............

.if we were to count his hours on putsing around with his system and charging for his labor as if he were a tech like he does as an Investment Councilor...............{sorry I couldn't resist}.........I think you'd see It's an experiment..............or go ahead prove it out..............hey I'm always willing to learn..........................and appreciate it, hell it's almost free, If i don't count this as work..............get my drift..................you're working right now Robin.........as am I..........:(

[jongig]

I really don't need information about how bad of an idea it was to spend what I did on this system or that a GT system is no good, too late for me to learn this. I really just need help finding a way to live with it or fix it.

[RoBoTeq]

I really don't need information about how bad of an idea it was to spend what I did on this system or that a GT system is no good, too late for me to learn this. I really just need help finding a way to live with it or fix it.
There is definitely something not right with your system. Hell, it's sometimes difficult to diagnose problems when we are on the job actually testing systems let alone trying to diagnose from a keyboard many miles away (actually, I'm not that far).

Do you know if the installer of the equipment has experience with geothermal systems? How about the well driller? You should have about 52 degree water/glycol entering your system unless your system has somehow already chilled the ground around your loop system already. If this is the case, it appears you don't have enough loop for your system. There is no hard and set rule for how much piping is required per ton of cooling/heating. There are variables having to do with how much clay, sand, rock etc. is in your ground.

[Roscoe]

I really don't need information about how bad of an idea it was to spend what I did on this system or that a GT system is no good, too late for me to learn this. I really just need help finding a way to live with it or fix it.

I apologize for the anti geo rant jonig,

at least you know that GEO is not the way to go....:D...I'm kidding. I'm kidding.......:D

ClimateMaster makes nice stuff but they are terrible at customer support.

Sounds like it's a design and install problem, I'd have the contractor yank the A/H and install 90% gas furnace.....if you can't keep the house comfortable @ 32* what are you gonna do when it hits single digits and 15mph winds .........

get them to rectify it.

you did say you have gas right..............Then why do you have electric W/H

Loop temp is 32*...?..............:eek:........I'm no GEO expert but I know W/S H/P's..........bet the Climate Master install manual has a min/max water temp range.

[jongig]

The installer did have experience and I interviewed a couple.

As for water temperature, when it was turned on the water temperature was 48 but it quickly went down to the low 40s and as soon as the system was heating more often it went down to where it's at, 32.

I understand in principal how this works and although 32 degree water has less heat energy it still has plenty of heat energy.

The installer has to come back to install the thermostat in the basement zone so I have heat in the basement and I'll talk to him again. I can't imagine this system being able to heat the basement which is another 2,400 SQ feet.

[Roscoe]

Well I don't get the 32* water, then I only work on WSHP that have cooling towers and boilers and a constant 75* to 80* water temp.

I'd still say use the gas as aux heat........JMO

[Airmechanical]

You should have about 52 degree water/glycol entering your system

what he said;

and once they address and repair that HUGE problem, it should fix the other problems

and quit closing off the supply vents in your house!



.

[RoBoTeq]

Yes they grouted but I didn't actually see them do it but the truck sat in my yard.

The unit has two pumps and I've attached a few pictures.
There is a specific technique to the grouting. Grouting must be done from the bottom of the well, upwards. In your case, a 300' long tube pumping the grouting would be dropped down the wells to pump grouting from the very bottom of the well so that the entire depth of the well is grouted.

[RoBoTeq]

ClimateMaster makes nice stuff but they are terrible at customer support.
This much I will give you. However, there is at least one distributor of ClimateMaster in Eastern PA that provides exellent support to the contractors they sell to. Depending on who the distributor is may make this an easier to diagnose issue.


Sounds like it's a design and install problem, I'd have the contractor yank the A/H and install 90% gas furnace.....if you can't keep the house comfortable @ 32* what are you gonna do when it hits single digits and 15mph winds .........

This is a self contained system. There is no seperate air handler. The electric auxilliary is in the ClimateMaster unit itself. There is usually no need for auxilliary heat other then intensely cold days as long as the system has been sized properly and installed properly. We definitely agree on that point.


......bet the Climate Master install manual has a min/max water temp range.
Using a glycol solution, below 32 degree fluids can successfully provide heat in a geothermal system. I just don't see how the inlet temps could have dropped so low unless there is a loop sizing or application issue.

[aircooled53]

I purchased a new home and had a heating contractor install a forced air, closed loop, 4-ton geothermal system. The system is a Tranquility 27 which is 2 stages and has a third stage that is electric resistance. I've received little information about its workings and we are not really happy with the heat. Besides I hoped my electric bill would not be so high and it's over $200 and for a 2,400 SQ ft house it seems like alot.

I programmed the thermostat for 65 degree days and 70 evenings and 67 degree nights.

The unit can not heat the house on a 30s day from 65 to 70 by the time we go to bed 9-10PM. I was told that I shouldn't set the temperature so low durring the day or I could have the third stage come on sooner. My kids room has never seen 70. My wife thinks we have to suplement our heat by using the LP fireplace.

I've placed temperature probes everywhere.

Temperature of the loop is 32 in and 28 out when it runs for awhile.

Temperature of the air from the unit is either 78-80 or 88-90, first and second stage.

My kids room gets as high as 68 but never 70. I've shut many grates off and so now I hear whistling.

The unit runs nearly all the time.

The house is dry and about 35% humidity.

We're not even cold outside yet and I wonder if we'll be warm and scared of the electric bill.

Thanks very much for taking the time to read this.

That loop temp. is way to cold for some reason, most loops only drop to 45* ground temps are usually steady and don't fall that much.Do not shut grills off as this will cause higher static pressure.Try raising the temperture a little say to 72* and see if second stage of geo come on and high speed. $200.. for electric for 2400 sq.ft. ain't that bad but, it's not cold yet, and if you have to continue to run back-up heat electric will surely be higher.

Get the company out there to make some adjustments and try only 4 degree setback during the day as max.Something is going on with the loops.

[2nu2no]

Is the HRP or HOTSHOT enabled?

[larobj63]

I would like to reaffirm a few thing to the original poster, in no particular order:


You have good equipment, and a questionable install. At least on the heat exchanger end.
150 ft / ton is a rule of thumb and there are many variables. You are in the water business, right? Was there a conductivity test done? Was water movement measured? What is the soil type? Did the installer express any interest in this info - or he was just happy with the rule of thumb? Bad sign if he was.
I usually design around 1-1/4 well pipe, but we do commercial work.
A geo system can be designed with NO BACKUP HEAT. We do it all the time.
Your well temps should BOTTOM OUT (In February) where they are right now and you are rightfully concerned about the capacity of the system. The Heat Pumps will eventually lock-out from low temp. Or the COP will approach 1, and you may as well use resistance anyway.
You have natural gas and you put in a geo set-up? I'm sorry, I know you didn't want to hear this type of non-constructive criticism, but a properly set up system would have been a 20 year payback, let alone the problematic one you have.
I wouldn't use any thermostatic temp set-back at all in your case.
I would make a lot of noise to the installing company. A lot.

[Roscoe]

Da' yumn..................That's saying something.....................nice.......:cool:

[Roscoe]

Da' yumn..................That's saying something.....................nice.......:cool:


# You have natural gas and you put in a geo set-up? I'm sorry, I know you didn't want to hear this type of non-constructive criticism, but a properly set up system would have been a 20 year payback, let alone the problematic one you have.

that's what I'm talk'en bout..................:D

[RoBoTeq]

I would like to reaffirm a few thing to the original poster, in no particular order:

You have good equipment, and a questionable install. At least on the heat exchanger end.
150 ft / ton is a rule of thumb and there are many variables. You are in the water business, right? Was there a conductivity test done? Was water movement measured? What is the soil type? Did the installer express any interest in this info - or he was just happy with the rule of thumb? Bad sign if he was.
I usually design around 1-1/4 well pipe, but we do commercial work.
A geo system can be designed with NO BACKUP HEAT. We do it all the time.
Your well temps should BOTTOM OUT (In February) where they are right now and you are rightfully concerned about the capacity of the system. The Heat Pumps will eventually lock-out from low temp. Or the COP will approach 1, and you may as well use resistance anyway.
You have natural gas and you put in a geo set-up? I'm sorry, I know you didn't want to hear this type of non-constructive criticism, but a properly set up system would have been a 20 year payback, let alone the problematic one you have.
I wouldn't use any thermostatic temp set-back at all in your case.
I would make a lot of noise to the installing company. A lot.
I agree with everything but the payback period and the choice to go geothermal when natural gas is available. The cost of natural gas as a commodity can easily rise rather quickly whereas the cost of absorbing heat from the Earth is going to stay the same. The cost of the electric in both cases will be about equal.

The bottom line is that the payback period can only decrease and the benefits can only increase.

[Roscoe]

robo. did ya forget the replacement and service cost, pumps etc.........

[RoBoTeq]

robo. did ya forget the replacement and service cost, pumps etc.........
Not at all. These items are going to last as long as air to air and gas systems, so this is another equal factor.

I attended a seminar by a hydrogeologist recently who has an unprecedented 30 year old geo system, an open loop at that. While he admits his system has received unusually fanatical attention over the years, 30 years is still phenominal for any HVAC system to last.

Another pump and dump geo home I am involved with has 5 systems that were put in 21 years ago. Because there is a total of 21 tons of cooling in this home with all systems having hot water generators, the electric elements of the domestic water heating has never turned on. This is even during the winter when the basement of this home is being heated by in floor radiant heat provided by the domestic hot water tanks.

You add up the vast savings of energy in cooling and heating along with the savings from hot water generation and it doesn't take long to realize the payback potential. Opposed to oil fired systems last year, paybacks from geo systems can be as short as four years. After that, it's all free gravy.

[Roscoe]

Not at all. These items are going to last as long as air to air and gas systems, so this is another equal factor.

I attended a seminar by a hydrogeologist recently who has an unprecedented 30 year old geo system, an open loop at that. While he admits his system has received unusually fanatical attention over the years, 30 years is still phenominal for any HVAC system to last.

Another pump and dump geo home I am involved with has 5 systems that were put in 21 years ago. Because there is a total of 21 tons of cooling in this home with all systems having hot water generators, the electric elements of the domestic water heating has never turned on. This is even during the winter when the basement of this home is being heated by in floor radiant heat provided by the domestic hot water tanks.

You add up the vast savings of energy in cooling and heating along with the savings from hot water generation and it doesn't take long to realize the payback potential. Opposed to oil fired systems last year, paybacks from geo systems can be as short as four years. After that, it's all free gravy.

Damn you're contractor got the AIG CFO exec or what.......:eek:.......:D
I'd have ta see all the bills and time spent before I'd believe a payback less than 20 yr's if ever........but like I said we don't do GEO, only commercial stuff on WSHP,

Hey and as far as the ClimateMaster distributor, in my area they are also THE contractor........... :(


jongig.......let us know how you make out tomorrow..........hopefully they square everything up.........32* loop the C/M spec's stop at 30......and 200 bucks doesn't seem out of range for that house, Electric WH............? Does your utility have a H/P rate........

[RoBoTeq]

Hey and as far as the ClimateMaster distributor, in my area they are also THE contractor........... :(


Who would that be? The company I work for is one of the two ClimateMaster distributors in your area for residential. Commercial geo is a different story. For Delaware and Chester counties, I am the ClimateMaster rep for residential.

[Roscoe]

Who would that be? The company I work for is one of the two ClimateMaster distributors in your area for residential. Commercial geo is a different story. For Delaware and Chester counties, I am the ClimateMaster rep for residential.

S/M...........

[Roscoe]

I forgot to add I can buy Carriers,,from PPI,,,,,,for half of what we pay S/M for the same unit...............;)

[RoBoTeq]

I forgot to add I can buy Carriers,,from PPI,,,,,,for half of what we pay S/M for the same unit...............;)
I'm not familiar with S/M. PPI does not keep any stock, my company does. Right now there is a 9-12 week wait on ClimateMaster equipment from the factory. My company has continuous orders of stock repleneshment for the most commonly installed units. I can get just about any geo system to my contractors with all accesories in less then two days, same day for emergencies.

[2nu2no]

What’s the price of tea in China, & by the way; why do I have a 4 ton Slurpee machine

[cactusjack]

Very Interesting thread...I plugged the numbers into my loop program on a previous residential job that had 2800 sf. I also changed the bin setup to your area in Pa.
This changed the load drastically. I also plugged in your setup on installed bores/footages and a 4 ton 2 stage Geo Unit...It nailed your existing temp at 31 deg EWT.and producing 34,618 BTU'S. Your heating load should be around (minimum)50,000 BTU's/25,148 sensible /2148 latent cooling (assuming well sealed ,well insulated walls,floors, ceilings, and double pane low e glazing).

The Reynolds footage produced by the program show 2500' (minimum loop) needed for your situation. results then would be 40 deg. EWT and producing 41,167 BTU'S. This would give you a much needed cushion as you are to close to disaster with 410a IMO at 31 deg EWT.

Also noticed from reading post's something not right with strip heat...assuming 100% you have 15 KW. correct? or 10KW? 5 KW? Is it working? unpluged ? turned off at dip switches maybe? System should catch up with 5KW and cycle if ductwork properly sized.

Can't understand why no fault lights are not going off at stat or unit

Also noticed 2 pumps? why? only have 32ft H20 pump head @1200 ft...hmmm..could this be a problem. 2500 ft = 48ft H20 pump head..2 pumps..yes?

All this is just a Beer and Turkey SWAG and the Corporate Weather Machine could have caused a Big Drought in your Area over the last few months and the ground needs re-hydrating to give you better temps..... :eek:

[Roscoe]

damn cactus....I don't know what you just said but I agree.............:D


actually I do know what you said......In layman's terms...ah his system is undersized, for the loop temp.......and........another words he's screwed.....:eek:


Even with the design done correctly


I still don't see the payback.............but hey it's the most efficient sheet out there.......it's gotta be worth some Carbon Credits.........and Al the Gorp would love it................:D

[RoBoTeq]

What’s the price of tea in China, & by the way; why do I have a 4 ton Slurpee machine
If you are incapable of following the thread connections, that is your problem:rolleyes:

But just so you know, tea in China is going for about 200 yen an ounce and if you want big slurpees you have to have the refrigeration to make them.

[RoBoTeq]

ClimateMaster requires dual pumps (one pushing and one pulling) on over 3 ton systems.

I don't have any of the software to calculate loop length but I've not seen just two 300' vertical loops for 4 ton.

[jongig]

I apologize for the anti geo rant jonig,

at least you know that GEO is not the way to go....:D...I'm kidding. I'm kidding.......:D

ClimateMaster makes nice stuff but they are terrible at customer support.

Sounds like it's a design and install problem, I'd have the contractor yank the A/H and install 90% gas furnace.....if you can't keep the house comfortable @ 32* what are you gonna do when it hits single digits and 15mph winds .........

get them to rectify it.

you did say you have gas right..............Then why do you have electric W/H

Loop temp is 32*...?..............:eek:........I'm no GEO expert but I know W/S H/P's..........bet the Climate Master install manual has a min/max water temp range.

Thanks for the posts from everyone and the information. I am a technical person and my wife works in a very technical field so we both can opine about all of this but it was my decission to spend all this money and I'd really like for this to work.

I may have mentioned gas but we have Liquid Propane.

I just wrote my own rant about all of my issues with this installer but you have all heard it before so I hit the delete key.

My wife works with 2 people that have geothermal and one that's had it for many years and they've been very happy with it which helped her think it was a good idea. I also know a couple people who have it and love it and one had his installed by my installer.

I will not be seeing my installer because he is not the one that does the work but I would like to put together a thought out letter asking specifics about my system.

Thanks again,

John

[RoBoTeq]

I will not be seeing my installer because he is not the one that does the work but I would like to put together a thought out letter asking specifics about my system.

Thanks again,

John
If your installer is not the one that does the work; who did?

[jongig]

Very Interesting thread...I plugged the numbers into my loop program on a previous residential job that had 2800 sf. I also changed the bin setup to your area in Pa.
This changed the load drastically. I also plugged in your setup on installed bores/footages and a 4 ton 2 stage Geo Unit...It nailed your existing temp at 31 deg EWT.and producing 34,618 BTU'S. Your heating load should be around (minimum)50,000 BTU's/25,148 sensible /2148 latent cooling (assuming well sealed ,well insulated walls,floors, ceilings, and double pane low e glazing).

The Reynolds footage produced by the program show 2500' (minimum loop) needed for your situation. results then would be 40 deg. EWT and producing 41,167 BTU'S. This would give you a much needed cushion as you are to close to disaster with 410a IMO at 31 deg EWT.

Also noticed from reading post's something not right with strip heat...assuming 100% you have 15 KW. correct? or 10KW? 5 KW? Is it working? unpluged ? turned off at dip switches maybe? System should catch up with 5KW and cycle if ductwork properly sized.

Can't understand why no fault lights are not going off at stat or unit

Also noticed 2 pumps? why? only have 32ft H20 pump head @1200 ft...hmmm..could this be a problem. 2500 ft = 48ft H20 pump head..2 pumps..yes?

All this is just a Beer and Turkey SWAG and the Corporate Weather Machine could have caused a Big Drought in your Area over the last few months and the ground needs re-hydrating to give you better temps..... :eek:

I would like to understand better all that you just said in this post!

The unit has two zones, one on the main floor and one in the basement. The basement is insulated. The house is insulated and we have good windows and doors. The main floor uses a Venstar thermostat supplied by me. They liked this better than the one they had but now they want to replace the venstar. The venstar is 3-heat and 2-cool which matches up with the T-27 from what I know. The thermostat is set for 2 degrees before second stage and 2 more before thrid stage (strip heater). The strip heaters have not turned on as far as I know. The unit has 3 electrical circuits to it. One is 50 amp to the bottom of the unit. The other two connect to the strip heaters in the top of the unit, one is 50 amp and the second is 30 amp.

I really enjoy the reading and learning about where I'm at and what needs to be done next. One thing I would sugest to the thermostat is if the unit is running for a half hour trying to make up one degree it seems like the second stage should turn on. On the other hand I've read some posts from people that say they ever see the second stage. The temperature in my house now is 69 and I will turn it up to 72 over the weekend just to see what happens.

Thanks,

John

[jongig]

If your installer is not the one that does the work; who did?

His workers.

I really did see this question comming, sorry.

Thanks for the replies.

john

[2nu2no]

If you are incapable of following the thread connections, that is your problem:rolleyes:

But just so you know, tea in China is going for about 200 yen an ounce and if you want big slurpees you have to have the refrigeration to make them.

Articulate

[RoBoTeq]

Articulate
OK;
1ar·tic·u·late http://www.merriam-webster.com/images/audio.gif (javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?articu10.wav=articulate')) Pronunciation: \är-ˈti-kyə-lət\ Function: adjective Etymology: Latin articulatus jointed, past participle of articulare, from articulus Date: 1586 1 a: divided into syllables or words meaningfully arranged : intelligible (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/intelligible) b: able to speak c: expressing oneself readily, clearly, or effectively <an articulate teacher> ; also : expressed in this manner <an articulate argument>2 a: consisting of segments united by joints : jointed (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/jointed) <articulate animals> b: distinctly marked off
— ar·tic·u·late·ly adverb
— ar·tic·u·late·ness noun

Not of much value for the written word. Are you lost?

[junkhound]

80F or 88F air out, assume the 70F air in.

A. Like others have said, those numbers art totally out of whack for a 4T system. The following may also help put some other numbers in context for you.
Doing these numbers in my head with conversions from memory (so someone may correct me but they 'feel' to be ballpark also) results in the following
.
32 in and 28 out and 48Kbtu/hr would mean 800 Btu/min, divide by 4F and you get your water flow to be an astounding 200#/min or about 24-25 gal/minute.

Likewise, only a 10F air rise at 48K/Btu-hr would mean your air flow would be 800 Btu/min, divide by 10, divide by .25 Btu/3 for air, gives 320# air min, times about 14#/ cu ft or close to 4500 cfm. Most systems are less than 10 GPM and airflow is typically 1600 CFM. At the typical 1600 CFM you would be getting less than 1-1/2 T heating, no wonder you are cold.
If this gets worse, you may have an 'infant mortality' leak in your 410A lines.

B. Trust in Robo's responses. I got a lot of CR@p from some responses on my first post asking a brand related question here a few years ago. Robo gave me straight answers.

C. For temperature comparisons, my custom 4T WSHP (in Seattle area) has 57F water in (better ground temp than PA fer sure) and 42F out. Air in is 70F, air out 110 F. Flow set to maximize COP. If I bump the water flow up to 10 GPM, the nominal 4T HP puts out over 5T of heating. It got down to 34F here the other night, we setback to 60F (basically shut off), takes only about 45 min to bring 5300 sq ft up to 70F.

[RoBoTeq]

Junkhound, I thank you for your vote of confidence in my posting. I do try to give as accurate of information as I can.

In this case, I am not the most knowledgeable on geothermal. I have only recently been involved with geothermal because of my having ClimateMaster to sell. Being the technical geek that I am, I have of course been visiting as many geo jobs as I can and attending seminars on geothermal from every source I have the oportunity to.

There is a lot of good information being posted on this thread, but we still don't know why the OPs system is so out of whack. I would really like for the installer to post on this one so we could work it out with him/her.

[jongig]

I appreciate all the help and I have some questions.

1. Why does the system remove exactly 4 degrees from the loop? Does the heat pump know the temperature.
2. If we assume 8GPM what is the BTUs being extracted from the loop?
3. Why is the air temperature 80/90, normal or should it be higher?
4. How can I calculate accurately if this is going to actually heat my house when it really gets cold? I'd like to figure it out now before we get cold here in NE-PA. I never use much heat in November and January is only 2 months away.

I played with the thermostat and figured out how to keep the second stage on until the set temperature is hit. Maybe this is wrong but the unit now will at least hit the set temperature. Before the unit would make it to within 1 degree and goto 1st stage and never make it to the set temperature. I now have it so that if the second stage comes on that it stays on until the set temp is reached.

Anyone interested in getting more involved in my experiment? It sure seems like an experiment at this point.

john

[Roscoe]

Anyone interested in getting more involved in my experiment? It sure seems like an experiment at this point.

john


See now didn't I say that earlier........:D


Roscoe

Can you justify the added cost of installation, service, pump and control replacement, as far as the dollar savings go over say a 15 or 20 yr period, I feel this is an experiment at best...

I'm kidding john, I'm kidding,..........;)

Believe me if anybody can help with THE experiment one of these brainiacs can, and will...........somehow I get the feeling this experiment will turn out ok......:) sorry I was no help but then I was always the smart ass class clown..type.....:o

but I did nail it as an experiment.............:D huh........

[aircooled53]

I would ask the installer to check for air in system at it's highest level in home, I would also make sure that you have at least 8-10 inlet -outlet water differential. As for the temperture split it needs to be at least 18-22 degrees on T.D.. I would monitor the water for 24 hours and get readings ever 1/2 hours to check out loop temps.And psi diff.If this system is zoned make sure all zones are open and set at same temps.

make sure you don't have more the 4 cycles per hours on thermostat and 1.0 differential, and 6 * dead band.

[junkhound]

OK, here goes, from an engineer's viewpoint:

1. Why does the system remove exactly 4 degrees from the loop? Does the heat pump know the temperature.
a. are you using a digital thermometer than does not have decimal places?
b. the refrigerant flow is such that at whatever flow rate you have only that much heat is needed to boil all the refrigerant flow and provide the superheat the txv is set for.
c. the TXV does know the temperature and pressure (not sure what your setup is). However, if refrigerant is low or the flow is blocked, the TXV would 'know' to go to wide open due to low temperature delta, 'thinking' it was the limit to flow.

2. If we assume 8GPM what is the BTUs being extracted from the loop?
'in-head' calculations/conversion) 8gpm = a lttle over 64 #/min, say 67 #/min. for ease of calculation. 1F dT and 1# water = 1 BTU. Thus 4*200/3*60 = 80*200 = 16,000 BTU hr or all of 1-1/3 Ton!

3. Why is the air temperature 80/90, normal or should it be higher?
Per 2, you are only putting 16,000 BTU per hour into the air (plus fan motor heat plus some of the compressor losses). Air is about 14# cuft, 1/4 BTU/dF per pound of air. 16,000/60 BTU/min (approx 267 BTU/min) at say 1600CFM removes about 25 to 30 BTU per dF/minute from the refrigerant. 10F rise means only 300 BTU/min or about 18,000 BTU/hr. Similar to a.

4. How can I calculate accurately if this is going to actually heat my house when it really gets cold? I'd like to figure it out now before we get cold here in NE-PA. I never use much heat in November and January is only 2 months away.
It ain't gonna heat your house unless super-ultra insulated, which by present problems it is not.

Just from these numbers, if it were my own system, I'd suspect I'd put a screw point (or drywall guy did it) into a refrigerant line someplace and had a refrigerant leak.

The low temp differences and consistency in the poor water and airflow temp differentials indicate that you likely have inadequate refrigerant flow.
Your installer's top troubleshooter should check out your system, looking for malfunctioning TXV, blocked filter, or other blockage to refrigerant flow in the system; or for a leak in the system that means not enough refrigerant to flow to give you your 4Tons.
If by next week you are getting even less heat, you probably have a leak.

example of leak - hate to admit it, but on son's house, once dropped a panel screw in the grass and could not find it, so put a similar but longer screw into the cover panel. 2 weeks later DIL calls and says 'no-cool' - the longer screw had just slightly pierced the refrigerant line.

[voleye]

Geo an experiment? Thats funny.

We have a couple geo systems that are over 20 years old now. We didn’t install them but service them now. They have had replacement parts. But show me a 20-year-old heat pump that has all original parts? We don’t do a lot of geo, but we do a couple custom homes or retrofits a year with geo.

The last one was for an operator of heavy equipment. We had the supplier design the system and loop. He dug the loop (horizontal) and put the pipe in the ground. We took out the old 8 S.E.E.R. pump and electric heat, installed the unit, and flushed the loop and start up. His payback with the tax deduction and local energy kickback of $200 was close to 4 years. I know he did the loop. But still.

I’m will be putting a Climatemaster Tranquility 27 in my house in the spring. Horizontal loop (3ton) replacing a 12-seer pump and oil back up. My payback is less than 2 years. Plus the fact I don’t have to worry what oil will do the next time the middle east raises prices.

[jongig]

I would ask the installer to check for air in system at it's highest level in home, I would also make sure that you have at least 8-10 inlet -outlet water differential. As for the temperture split it needs to be at least 18-22 degrees on T.D.. I would monitor the water for 24 hours and get readings ever 1/2 hours to check out loop temps.And psi diff.If this system is zoned make sure all zones are open and set at same temps.

make sure you don't have more the 4 cycles per hours on thermostat and 1.0 differential, and 6 * dead band.

I believe you're thinking my system is hydronic? I only have an air handler.

What psi diff?

[Airmechanical]

for all the GEO experts out there;

give some reasons other than what i list why you think the entering water temp is so low!

too small of a loop

improperly installed fill material

buildup inside loop piping (stopping heat transfer)

improperly mixxed liquid (percentage of glycol to water) inside loop



.

[junkhound]

a. Jongig: ....have extensive knowledge in wells, water, pumps and controls.

b. airmech: too small of a loop, improperly installed fill material, buildup inside loop piping (stopping heat transfer), improperly mixxed liquid (percentage of glycol to water) inside loop

Making the assumptions all is OK withthe HP itself, A suggestion for a fact-finding test for jongig, taking into account the qualifications in (a.) of jongig.
Disconnect the loop from the evap connections and hook the inlet to your potable water supply (thru vac breaker, et. Al. as needed) and a hose to dump the outlet outside. Run the unit with straight water flow thru the evap for 15- 20 minutes and observe temperatures. If you get lots of heat now, one of airmech's items is likely true, and you are freezing your well solid as a result.

[RoBoTeq]

I believe you're thinking my system is hydronic? I only have an air handler.

What psi diff?
No, aircooled understands what you have and is correct with his post. For some reason your system is just not picking up enough heat to transfer the amount that it is supposed to be transferriing.

By transferring 8-10 degrees from the water loop your air should have the 18-22 degree temperature rise aircooled suggests.

Are you running glycol through the loop? Was the loop pressure purged?

[jongig]

No, aircooled understands what you have and is correct with his post. For some reason your system is just not picking up enough heat to transfer the amount that it is supposed to be transferriing.

By transferring 8-10 degrees from the water loop your air should have the 18-22 degree temperature rise aircooled suggests.

Are you running glycol through the loop? Was the loop pressure purged?

I'll ask my wife about the makeup of the solution they used because she read one of the buckets. They did purge the system using a rubbermaid container and a, probably pool pump. The loop however has some form of antifreeze solution.

Someone asked about the temperature probes since I didn't use the decimal point. I have rounded up/down for the most part and when I mentioned the lowest loop return temperature I should have said 31.8 degrees F.

@junkhound.

I like your idea but have no clue of the connections that are made to the black box on the wall.

Before I lay beyond the thermostat I will have to understand better some of the controls on this unit. For instane, why is the air temperature always 78-80 or 88-90?

I mentioned to someone that I was closing up many grates in the house in order to force heat into my kids room which is in the east wing if you will. It's a very long travel and they used the smaller flex duct for his room. I did open everything back up this morning to see what hapens but it's a bit warmer today and the systems not working much. I believe I should ask to have a second duct installed to his bedroom. The return from his room is much larger. I also notice in the manual many more settings to the T-27 which have to do with air flow.

The rise in air temperature is above 20 degrees when in second stage. If you guess the return air is below 70 and the air is 90 that would be 20. I'd like to see the air in here go down farther, maybe below 60 and then see what the system produces as far as air temperature?

[2nu2no]

page 39

[hvacmd]

:)Contact the manufacturer,have them suggest a contractor,pay for an accurate heat/load calculation.Here in Illinois our vertical geo-loops vary by ground condition conductivity.The loop diameter,distance from adjacent loop(at least ten feet) type of antifreeze,% of antifreeze all factor in.

[RoBoTeq]

ClimateMaster technical manual

page 39
This is exactly what we have been telling this HO. Please do not post technical manuals in an open forum.

[2nu2no]

sorry want me to edit

[clintkennon]

Twilli has energy star home, 3000 sq ft

Thats a big trailer! And ive seen some nice ones down here in GA.

[RoBoTeq]

sorry want me to edit
I would think so. This is really up to the mods, but we are getting pretty darned technical already as it is on this thread.

I just don't want the thread to be moved to a professional forum where it will be out of sight of the HO.

The link you posted is great for info, just not a good thing here in the open forum.

[tecman]

No, aircooled understands what you have and is correct with his post. For some reason your system is just not picking up enough heat to transfer the amount that it is supposed to be transferriing.

By transferring 8-10 degrees from the water loop your air should have the 18-22 degree temperature rise aircooled suggests.

Are you running glycol through the loop? Was the loop pressure purged?

I agree also. You should not have water that cold coming in. I did a system last year, same unit, with 3 x 225' wells, 1" pipe downhole. Single pump package. Lowest incoming water temp is around 40 deg at the darkest days of winter.

Contact in the wells seems likely, poor grout job or similar. Also glycol has issues with viscosity at those cold temps. Requires more pump and may not have enough turbulance (Reynolds number).

Get the installer back. It ashould be his problem.

paul

[cactusjack]

32 in and 28 out and 48Kbtu/hr would mean 800 Btu/min, divide by 4F and you get your water flow to be an astounding 200#/min or about 24-25 gal/minute

Teach me please, how did you arrive at this.and is it correct..I would like to know for future reference.

That would verify my original question in my post concerning pumps and explain what is wrong here. If the system is moving 22-24 gpm the loops can't extract the heat properly. Take 1 pump off line(wiring) and loop field should start to recover if I am correct.

It would be nice if he had a balance valve or circuit setter,,,but I guess that's why they don't give kids guns.:D

Another thing,.. it was a wise choice IMO to set the system to reach setpoint in 2nd stage.

Does this system have a De-superheater ?

[RoBoTeq]

Teach me please, how did you arrive at this.and is it correct..I would like to know for future reference.

That would verify my original question in my post concerning pumps and explain what is wrong here. If the system is moving 22-24 gpm the loops can't extract the heat properly. Take 1 pump off line(wiring) and loop field should start to recover if I am correct.

It would be nice if he had a balance valve or circuit setter,,,but I guess that's why they don't give kids guns.:D

Another thing,.. it was a wise choice IMO to set the system to reach setpoint in 2nd stage.

Does this system have a De-superheater ?

This system does have a hot water generater (desuperheater) and you are correct that it should be off during all tests.

[Roscoe]

.............................

[Roscoe]

Well are we out of the experimental stage...........and ah did someone say "Circuit Setter" now there's an idea............:eek:

:D.............:D

[cactusjack]

This system does have a hot water generater (desuperheater) and you are correct that it should be off during all tests.

Ruuh-Rooh...I wonder if the installer has taken thermo-siphonage into account here....( proper sizing and piping seems to be a grey area with all Geo Manuf. to me) What size water-heater does the HO have and is there a separate storage tank and size? (pictures of this and unit showing duct supply and return with sizes would be helpful)

All in all....I think the unit is functioning o.k. and sized ok..,my installation was a 3 ton dual unit in the South..but there is , I see a lot of difference in the North... mainly heating,,,(however , he will only be using 5-7 kw.auxillary heat) also he should never see second stage in cooling according to my first post.

Also if I had the cost per kw. of power for summer , winter rates from the home owner and gas per therm summer, winter rates we could take this experiment and show Roscoe the fact....and he be puttin 1 in soon.LoL
ROLL TIDE !

[junkhound]

Cactusjack:


re: 32 in and 28 out and 48Kbtu/hr would mean 800 Btu/min, divide by 4F and you get your water flow to be an astounding 200#/min or about 24-25 gal/minute

Teach me please, how did you arrive at this and is it correct

Sorry to just throw out numbers cactus. The calculation was meant to illustrate that the system 'probably' was not putting out anywhere near 4T worth of heat as the number came out to 'ridiculous' values. The HO obviously does not have a 24 gal/min flow.

Here are the way to do the numbers, you should memorize and know the conversion numbers by heart.

- There is 1 BTU per pound of water per deg F.
The 4T RATING is obviously 48,000 BTU/hr (12,000 BTU per ton, I'm assuming thhat having gotten your pro credentials everyone remembers that it takes 12,000 BTU nominally to freeze a ton of ice??).

Divide by 60 minutes for 800 BTU per minute.
Since the water loses 4F from input to output, that means 4 BTU per pound of water.
800/4 = 200# of water per minute.
A gallon of water at 32 F weighs 8.34 pounds.
Thus, 200/8.34 rounds off to 24 gal per minute. -- think 25/3 vs. 8.34 for weight of a gallon and you can do the calcs in your head without a calculator e.g. (200/25) = 8, then 8*3 = 24.


See a later post based on OP being pretty sure he has about 8 gal per minute flow.

Hope that helps you.

[cactusjack]

Cactusjack:


re: 32 in and 28 out and 48Kbtu/hr would mean 800 Btu/min, divide by 4F and you get your water flow to be an astounding 200#/min or about 24-25 gal/minute

Teach me please, how did you arrive at this and is it correct

Sorry to just throw out numbers cactus. The calculation was meant to illustrate that the system 'probably' was not putting out anywhere near 4T worth of heat as the number came out to 'ridiculous' values. The HO obviously does not have a 24 gal/min flow.

Here are the way to do the numbers, you should memorize and know the conversion numbers by heart.

- There is 1 BTU per pound of water per deg F.
The 4T RATING is obviously 48,000 BTU/hr (12,000 BTU per ton, I'm assuming thhat having gotten your pro credentials everyone remembers that it takes 12,000 BTU nominally to freeze a ton of ice??).

Divide by 60 minutes for 800 BTU per minute.
Since the water loses 4F from input to output, that means 4 BTU per pound of water.
800/4 = 200# of water per minute.
A gallon of water at 32 F weighs 8.34 pounds.
Thus, 200/8.34 rounds off to 24 gal per minute. -- think 25/3 vs. 8.34 for weight of a gallon and you can do the calcs in your head without a calculator e.g. (200/25) = 8, then 8*3 = 24.


See a later post based on OP being pretty sure he has about 8 gal per minute flow.

Hope that helps you.

I missed the pretty sure about 8 gal per minute post and re-read all,...I only found 1 with HO saying" lets assume 8 gpm flow"...assumption is a loaded word...where your stating math facts that I believe to be accurate.

You proved,..no matter how ridiculous it sounds that he has 24 gpm flow.
correct?

And thanks for helping me with this.

[jongig]

Here are a couple pictures.

The 8 GPM comes from a conversation I had with the instaler sometime ago.

[jongig]

Here is a picture of the loop probe.

Sometimes when the unit turns on it shuts back down and on the honeywwell device it says "purge". What is it doing?

[RoBoTeq]

Here is a picture of the loop probe.

Sometimes when the unit turns on it shuts back down and on the honeywwell device it says "purge". What is it doing?
Purge? Air in the piping, maybe?

[burrq]

The honeywell zone control "purges" on power-up and at the end of a cycle. It basically runs the fan for a certain amount of time 60 90 120 secs after each call for heat or cooling.

[superheatrman]

that water is way to cold. and is primary source of your problem. sounds like the ground loop is not moving water thru it, a short circut in water flow, bypass valve open? at that water temp. it hard to get any capacity.

[jongig]

that water is way to cold. and is primary source of your problem. sounds like the ground loop is not moving water thru it, a short circut in water flow, bypass valve open? at that water temp. it hard to get any capacity.

The way the loops were installed in parallel and burried you can't monitor each well.

As for short circuit I'm guessing you mean in the loop control box? My loop temp probes are attached to the loop pipes as they go through the foundation and so the are measuring actual temperature comming/going from the house.

[Airmechanical]

Here is a picture of the loop probe.

Sometimes when the unit turns on it shuts back down and on the honeywwell device it says "purge". What is it doing?


that looks to me as if it's displaying the minimum temp all of the time!

is that the current temp, or is it (locked on) the minimum!



.

[jongig]

that looks to me as if it's displaying the minimum temp all of the time!

is that the current temp, or is it (locked on) the minimum!



.


It's a data logging thermostat and the temperature displayed is the min temp only for that day. Each press of the min button gives you the lowest temp of each day.

[Jay-B]

My first post here. I admit I didn't read the whole thread. But there is some good information in there, and some bad.

Jon,
Your story is a very common one. Unfortunately geothermal systems will become very unpopular in the near future because of situations like yours. That's a real shame, because in certain applications it's an excellent option.

You have nowhere near enough pipe in the ground. I don't know what type of soil you have and I haven't seen the application so I can't accurately say what you need, but I would guess you're not even halfway there.
Time to drill more holes.

Simply put, your system just doesn't absorb enough heat. You could have a 10 ton heat pump and it still wouldn't keep up.

You can ask all the questions you want, but you have a square peg and round hole. It will not work until you get a round peg. There is nothing you can do without expanding your current system

Once you get it working right, stop setting your thermostat back, and lose the zone system.

Just curious, was this contractor the low bidder? Be honest:D

[Roscoe]

Just curious, was this contractor the low bidder? Be honest.:D

ohhh boy...:eek:..:D.

[RoBoTeq]

jay-b, what is your rationale for stating that there is not enough piping in the loop?

[jongig]

My first post here. I admit I didn't read the whole thread. But there is some good information in there, and some bad.

Jon,
Your story is a very common one. Unfortunately geothermal systems will become very unpopular in the near future because of situations like yours. That's a real shame, because in certain applications it's an excellent option.

You have nowhere near enough pipe in the ground. I don't know what type of soil you have and I haven't seen the application so I can't accurately say what you need, but I would guess you're not even halfway there.
Time to drill more holes.

Simply put, your system just doesn't absorb enough heat. You could have a 10 ton heat pump and it still wouldn't keep up.

You can ask all the questions you want, but you have a square peg and round hole. It will not work until you get a round peg. There is nothing you can do without expanding your current system

Once you get it working right, stop setting your thermostat back, and lose the zone system.

Just curious, was this contractor the low bidder? Be honest:D

You're funny, thanks for the smile. He was one of three that I talked to and what I liked most was that he wanted to do a closed loop system. Two others wanted to do open and knowing a bit about water and what it can do in an open enviroment it didn't make sense. Our water locally is mineral rich and we have lots of trouble with iron bacteria and I can't imagine that being good for a GT system. I also had seen some of his work and it looked clean and well done.

I do think you're right and they system is most likely working but just no pulling enough heat energy from the ground. I really wish it was something easy but based on the two holes I have now I can imagine needing at least two more.

I also have to tell you that I wish the two wells were piped into the house and headered in the house. It would seem that you could monitor the temperature of each loop and know if maybe a problem exists on one of the two. I once had a water main installed with a rock in it and man did that cause some trouble for a while. Maybe I'm using one loop instead of two?

[jrbenny]

The way the loops were installed in parallel and burried you can't monitor each well.

As for short circuit I'm guessing you mean in the loop control box? My loop temp probes are attached to the loop pipes as they go through the foundation and so the are measuring actual temperature comming/going from the house.
Short circuit in the well return loop. If the headers are connected incorrectly, you will only pull the water through one well instead of both wells.

[jongig]

Short circuit in the well return loop. If the headers are connected incorrectly, you will only pull the water through one well instead of both wells.

Here is a picture of the wells and piping. I did not like the way the pipes were connected and that caused some tention between us. If I were to connect the two wells in parallel I would have used the same connections for each well so that you have the best chance of a ballanced flow. The installer said it doesn't matter enough and left it and he is probably right but I'm a bit of a stickler. The 1.25 inch pipe goes out from the house about 15 feet where you see the two T's. The pipe out is 1.25 and the pipe down the wells is 1 inch.

No short circuit but as I mentioned you could have one well plugged up.

I have another thought about the well temperature. With my sending 28F water down those holes won't I freeze the water around the wells which would cause another loss in efficiency? Ice is a good insulator.

[jongig]

Called the local distributor and they tell me that no way can I get 32 degree water in my situation unless something is very wrong with the loops.

Called the installer and asked him about the water temperature and he thinks since I'm not actually in the water with my probe that the probe might be wrong. I then reminded him that the probe is in living space and on the outside of the pipe and if anything the probe would show a higher temperature not lower. He'll be out this week to check it out. I am not happy with knowing that I emailed him this informaton back on 11/19 and he never responded to my loop temperature.

I am looking into connecting a sub pannel electric meter to the unit so that I can break out the electric for the unit because it's just running all the time.

[RoBoTeq]

Who is the local distributor?

[jongig]

Who is the local distributor?


HVAC Distributors Inc.

[RoBoTeq]

HVAC Distributors Inc.
You will get your issue resolved.

[LibertyGeo]

I have been reading this post and I have a suggestions and a question or two.
It sounds like your loop is short and I would wonder if the grout mix you are using is incorrect. It sounds like you have a grout mixture that is a combination of Bentonite and graphite, Contractors use graphite because it flows thru a grout pump easier than Bentonite and sand mixes. I also would be concerned if the loops were filled from the bottom up? I have been seeing alot of suggestions about your loop size but if your loop is indeed to short it's affects would be more concentrated when the AC is run. I really sounds like you loop field has a thermal short circut do to bad grout or a heavy use of graphite. Are your loops in series or parallel?

Just my thoughts....

[jongig]

I have been reading this post and I have a suggestions and a question or two.
It sounds like your loop is short and I would wonder if the grout mix you are using is incorrect. It sounds like you have a grout mixture that is a combination of Bentonite and graphite, Contractors use graphite because it flows thru a grout pump easier than Bentonite and sand mixes. I also would be concerned if the loops were filled from the bottom up? I have been seeing alot of suggestions about your loop size but if your loop is indeed to short it's affects would be more concentrated when the AC is run. I really sounds like you loop field has a thermal short circut do to bad grout or a heavy use of graphite. Are your loops in series or parallel?

Just my thoughts....


The loops are in parallel. The holes were each 300 feet deep, saw it. I didn't see them grout but I am aware that the grout truck broke on the first day and it took two more days to get it working. I don't know anything about the grout.

[RoBoTeq]

The loops are in parallel. The holes were each 300 feet deep, saw it. I didn't see them grout but I am aware that the grout truck broke on the first day and it took two more days to get it working. I don't know anything about the grout.
The first well supplied should be the last well returned. Is the return line on the opposite well from the supply?

[LibertyGeo]

My concern is that your loop field has been compromised, if your temps are in the 30's as you stated earlier you have air pockets in your loop field. I can come to this conclusion based on the two days that the holes were left ungrouted I can bet that your wells collapsed around the Pex tube and when they finally got around to grouting your wells they filled partially with sediment. My second concern is that I would have designed the loop field in series but I think this is solely a design decision

[jongig]

My concern is that your loop field has been compromised, if your temps are in the 30's as you stated earlier you have air pockets in your loop field. I can come to this conclusion based on the two days that the holes were left ungrouted I can bet that your wells collapsed around the Pex tube and when they finally got around to grouting your wells they filled partially with sediment. My second concern is that I would have designed the loop field in series but I think this is solely a design decision


I never did attach the picture of the piping to the holes. The picture only shows the joints but the right two pipes goto one well and the left two goto the other.

[jongig]

The first well supplied should be the last well returned. Is the return line on the opposite well from the supply?


Not sure how you want the piping done but look at the picture in my last post and let me know what you think.

Thanks...

[RoBoTeq]

Not sure how you want the piping done but look at the picture in my last post and let me know what you think.

Thanks...
Can't tell for certain without seeing the entire layout, but that doesn't look right. Looks like you could have a one dead well loop, which would freeze the one getting the circulating fluid. Also, how far apart are the wells?

[jongig]

Here is a better picture since you can't see the actual wells in the picture.

1.25 inch out to T and then 1 inch down into wells.

[tecman]

Your piping, as well as the overall scheme looks okay. I have to agree with others that there is either a clog in one well line (unlikely) or the coupling to the ground in the well has been compromised somehow. If the grouting was not done correctly, it is possible that there could be a big air pocket in the middle of the well with grout above and below. I also assume that the borehohes were dry, no water in them.

First step would be to dig up the manifold that you showed in your picture. A clamp-on thermometer would give some indication of one well is a problem.

On average, you should have enough well depth for 4 tons (assuming average soil conditions). However the temps indicate a real issue with heat flow, most likely doe to bad earth coupling. If one well is bad you could have another drilled, connect the new one and abandon the bad one.

paul

[Roscoe]

I don't know............ it's looking more and more like an experiment.......:D

I'm Kidding, I'm Kidding...............:p

I'd just like to see all the original install cost and all the service cost, and pay back with the all time spent on the HO's part and all the free time spent, trying to get this GEO to work.........

Efficient.................... no doubt.................;)
----------------------------------------------
Cost Effective............ doubt.....................:rolleyes:

[Airmechanical]

Efficient.................... no doubt.................;)
----------------------------------------------
Cost Effective............ doubt.....................:rolleyes:


at this point it's not efficient

i feel bad for this home owner!

did the original installer ever show back up

or was that the guy that said 32* entering water is fine:(



.

[jthom]

Jongig,

your last pic with labels shows us that the loops are NOT piped in the required "Reverse return method" as Robo was talking about.

Loop two will get all / majority of the flow. You have one dead loop circuit. This may be why your loop temps are so low for this early in the season.

Secondly, not grouting for 2 days may also have caused voids in the bore holes between the pipe and the wall with missing grout, again just a guess sitting here.

JMHO

[Roscoe]

at this point it's not efficient

i feel bad for this home owner!

did the original installer ever show back up

or was that the guy that said 32* entering water is fine:(



.

Ah...crap [Freudian]..... back to excrement ..........heh sorry I meant

experiment.........:D

come on guys lighten up.......this is gonna work, I was serious when I said I'd like to see the #'s

I'm from Missouri .....................Show me............;)

[jongig]

Ah...crap [Freudian]..... back to excrement ..........heh sorry I meant

experiment.........:D

come on guys lighten up.......this is gonna work, I was serious when I said I'd like to see the #'s

I'm from Missouri .....................Show me............;)


You are more than welcome to see my numbers once I have good numbers. I'm very interested in this experiment cost wise and I'm a bit of a realist and will admit the right and wrong of it when finished.

I odered a subpanel electric meter so I can see good data. I have a 8 year old that only knows how to turn things on so I'll try to be fair to the GT system.

On the funny side, please keep posting as I sure enjoy your side of things.

john

[Roscoe]

You are more than welcome to see my numbers once I have good numbers. I'm very interested in this experiment cost wise and I'm a bit of a realist and will admit the right and wrong of it when finished.

On the funny side, please keep posting as I sure enjoy your side of things.

john
I'm just trying to keep it lite.....and keep the thread moving.......and I do look forward to seeing the #'S

Believe it or not I want it to work ..................and work very well.........:)

Hell we all do.......;)

[jongig]

Jongig,

your last pic with labels shows us that the loops are NOT piped in the required "Reverse return method" as Robo was talking about.

Loop two will get all / majority of the flow. You have one dead loop circuit. This may be why your loop temps are so low for this early in the season.

Secondly, not grouting for 2 days may also have caused voids in the bore holes between the pipe and the wall with missing grout, again just a guess sitting here.

JMHO

Reverse return is not a term I'm famliar with at all. I mentioned in a past post that I was unhapy with the piping because of head loss being higher in Well1 because of the 4 90 degree bends in the water flow versus well 2 which is a straight shot into the well. He told me the head loss was not enough to matter.

Please diagram out how two wells run in parallel should be plumbed.

Please also explain why it matters.

Thanks.

[jongig]

I'm just trying to keep it lite.....and keep the thread moving.......and I do look forward to seeing the #'S

Believe it or not I want it to work ..................and work very well.........:)

Hell we all do.......;)


When it gets cold in here and the well completely freezes up we're moving out to live with you for the winter! As long as it's warm in the house and you get more than one channel on the TV we'll be happy.

[Roscoe]

When it gets cold in here and the well completely freezes up we're moving out to live with you for the winter! As long as it's warm in the house and you get more than one channel on the TV we'll be happy.

Hey yer welcome to but I got a feeling things will be worked out before then, hang in there.

Sides I only got 2 duel fuel 15 seer heatpumps with 4 zone gas hydronics and a variable 2 stage gas furnace. A Poor HVAC mans system........:D

AN yep reverse return as robo said is worth looking into, this doesn't look like a good place for 2 pipe direct return. But hey I'm no GEO guy or an Engineer,

I leave the design stuff to the xperts..............heh we just make stuff work, that looked good on paper....and the experts look good.............
;)

[dzenzel]

Reverse return is not a term I'm famliar with at all.

Please diagram out how two wells run in parallel should be plumbed.



Thanks.

Attached is an example from one of my sets. I have a Climatemaster 5-ton packaged unit connected to three wells at 300 ft (900 ft total). The manifold is under ground and in a reverse-return configuration. Note how the in/outs are reversed for the loops.... ie... first to get water is last to feedback... (Note: In our case I had them install more loop than recommended. Recommendation in pa is 150ft/ton.... on the 5-ton system, I went to 900 ft instead of 750.... on my 2 ton systems I went with 450ft instead of 300)

On the two 2 ton systems each with separate loops (2x225ft each)... the manifolds are identical to yours. My driller told me that for two wells, reverse-return didn't make much of a difference. He strongly recommended it for three wells and above.

I've been running over a month now, and my temps (Near Allentown/Phl) are around 50 in - 42 out fairly steady the past month.... checking every few days and my variance is always between 8-10 degrees. I do have a glycol/water mix.

[jthom]

Jongig,

Another way to say "reverse return" would be "first off- last on".

So, on the side of the tee #2 (first off) follow the pipe out and back and it should be connected onto the end of Tee #1 (last on).

The other circuit would be connected to the last open holes on each tee. This will give you equal flow thru each circuit. Providing each circuit is within 10&#37; of the same lenght as each other.

The 2 extra 90's should not be enough effect to reduce the flow and lower your loop temps down to 32degreesF.

Water will take the path of least resistance and right now if simply flows right on by the circuit that comes of the side of each tee.

Have your installer dig it up and change the tees and connections. Leave the hole open and run test checking your flows, heat of extraction. Once you have the flow corrected, fill in the hole.

Also another thought- this dead circuit may have air it and could be adding to the lack of flow.

[jongig]

I came home the after they fused the connetions to the wells and I right away made a drawing of how it should have been done and took it outside to show the guys working on it and although I didn't know your technical terms I did ask if they understood headloss. It was a big deal and the two that were here that day did not want to come back and work on the system. The installer told me it didn't matter and not to worry about it. I would have automatically designed it in a ballanced flow design (my terminology) myself but I have tried not to get to involved because I just figure I don't know and they do.

Installer will be here Thursday and I wish it were sooner and I'm tempted to call my excavator but I guess I'd better wait.

[jthom]

Scary thought, How many more loops have they done this way?

Hopefully they take ownership and correct the problem.

Have you talked to the distributor yet? They should be involved and included on thursday.

[tecman]

I think that this thread is getting a bit far from reality. Reverse return, extra elbows, etc. All of these items might add a psi or two, or a degree or two. This guy has a major problem. He should have plenty of pump. Glycol could be an issue at these temps, but there should still be enough pump to make up for it. There are only two boreholes, so reverse return piping will make little difference. If he had 10 wells, maybe then.

The only way to get to the issue is to have the installer (or someone qualified) dig up the headers and do some temp measuring. Next step is to cut the lines and check for blocked loops. This will quickly point to a general location of the problem. As I had said before, this guy has a serious heat transfer problem than needs to be addressed. It will work as is, but no better efficiency as an air unit. He spent big bucks on the vertical loops, now the installer should step up to the plate and fix his problems.

paul

[RoBoTeq]

The way this loop is installed, there could be 50&#37; of the loop not picking up ground heat resulting in the freezing of the ground of the other 50% in the one well. Reverse return piping would prevent this.

What is the difference if you have ten 30 foot wells or 2 150 foot wells? If you are not picking up ground heat from the last 50% of the wells, the results are the same.

I'm also concerned about the grouting aspect. The piping is relatively easy to resolve, but if there are air gaps in the wells due to improper grouting, that means new wells.

Did I get an answer to whether or not a flush kit was used to make sure all piping has fluid in it? Could the one loop be air bound? This could not happen if the piping were of the reverse return pattern.

[jongig]

The way this loop is installed, there could be 50% of the loop not picking up ground heat resulting in the freezing of the ground of the other 50% in the one well. Reverse return piping would prevent this.

Did I get an answer to whether or not a flush kit was used to make sure all piping has fluid in it? Could the one loop be air bound? This could not happen if the piping were of the reverse return pattern.

I thought I had answered this before but maybe not. Anyway, yes they did flush the loops. I was here when they did it and although I didn't watch I did see a rubbermaid container with what looked like a pool pump connected to the system.

[hotwaterworld]

Just an off the wall idea, could it be his flow rates are too high and he is not getting enough thermal transfer which could explaing the low delta t in & out of the well. I do mostly hydronics and water source hp work but understand a fair amount on Geo. Just a thought.

[jdh]

I'm posting just to stay informed of the updates to this thread...........

Looks like most things have been covered by previous posters

Looks like you know how, the piping loop in the ground should look, just a quick drawing of how I would do it. This is off of your original photo.

Air pockets in ground loop could be a possibility, if they did not use a purge cart strong enough to get velocities up in the pipe.

Debris or bad fusion joint.

[jongig]

I received a call from the installer this morning and he is sending his men out to look at the system tomorrow and finish installing the thermostats so we have heat in the basement. I really would like to give all the details from the call but I will limit what I say.

Please don't bash the installer because we're here only to do what's right and I'm really sorry that my relationship with the him is at this point not very good. I wish he would come out and talk to me but I think at this point none of them want anything to do wth me.

From the installer;

1. The homeowner is not suposed to have probes on the loop and know the temperatures.
2. When you turn the thermostat up does the house warm up to that set point. Yes (me). The unit is working.
3. I am not God and I can't control the temperatures in the ground.

I really need an advocate at this point and someone who can just go over things with these men tomorrow becuse I just don't see myself being the right person because I am the home owner. I got an idea that I was playing with the system which is bad but I didn't open, change or play with any settings on the unit. Maybe some form of independant analysis is sorely needed.

I'm not an idiot and am educated in some of this but just in another field of plumbing. My wife's no slouch either and has multiple degrees including an engineering degree and is very familiar with controls and systems becuse of her job. Can't tell you but if I did you'd aggree.

[jrbenny]

If those are the the words of the installer, I would place in immediate call to the president/owner/general manager of the local distributor that you listed. That clowns needs an education.

[hotwaterworld]

I would contact a local engineering outfit who has experience with GEO and have them evaluate if the guy does not want to address the malfunctions of the system. Then have them write a report on the deficiencies and present that to the installer. My .02 worth. Tim

[cactusjack]

Well.... I guess the installer or home owner won't be interested in my CactusJack Geo Defrost Board w/staged pump controller (patent pending/copyrighted) for the HO's Prozac27 Geo Unit. (been known to boost COP rating to 9) :D

[Airmechanical]

I purchased a new home and had a heating contractor install a forced air, closed loop, 4-ton geothermal system. The system is a Tranquility 27 which is 2 stages and has a third stage that is electric resistance. I've received little information about its workings and we are not really happy with the heat. Besides I hoped my electric bill would not be so high and it's over $200 and for a 2,400 SQ ft house it seems like alot.
I programmed the thermostat for 65 degree

remember everything in the house furniture, floors, beds, etc. all get down to that 65* on setback

65 days and 70 evenings and 67 degree nights.The unit can not heat the house on a 30s day from 65 to 70 by the time we go to bed 9-10PM.

what time do you start recovery

I was told that I shouldn't set the temperature so low durring the day or I could have the third stage come on sooner.

can you shut the breakers to the strip heater off and recover earlier to see if it will reach desired temp

My kids room has never seen 70.

what about the rest of the house, could this be a distribution problem

My wife thinks we have to suplement our heat by using the LP fireplace.

out of the question

I've placed temperature probes everywhere.Temperature of the loop is 32 in and 28 out when it runs for awhile.

if that is indeed the temp in the loop as stated that's not good

The unit runs nearly all the time.

on low speed not a terrible thing

The house is dry and about 35% humidity.

same in my house if i don't use humidifier

We're not even cold outside yet and I wonder if we'll be warm and scared of the electric bill.

i heard that, i would be to!



.

[jambsi]

I read this entire thread hoping their would be a happy ending. I guess I'm too early.

Anyway, I just installed a ClimateMaster (except in Canada they're called NextEnergy) Tranquility 27 4 ton unit myself. Its been running for a couple of weeks. I note that the house maintains the heat setpoint just fine but using any termostat setbacks throws it into a poor performing fit. I'm told that this is because its "low mass heating" vs the raw horsepower of the propane furnace I replaced. I don't have anywhere near the issues you have nor can I relate to your vertical loops because my loop is 1200' in a river.

My system is also a 2 zone forced air. I note in a few comments that you have a zone system and have tried adjusting the "installer programming" of the thermostats. As I understand it the affects (or not) of this depends a lot on the zone controller. I'd be interested in what brand/model of zone controller you have. I have a Robertshaw Slimzone which affectively takes all the operational controls away from the thermostats except the basics; set point, setpoint time programming, etc.

This isn't cutting it for me & I'm now looking into a WaterFurnace Intellizone controller.

Good luck, hang in there. Keep us in the 'loop'

;)

[burner man]

Unfortunately you have gotten way to much info, it takes years to become an experienced and competent geothermal installer. In short you cannot use and I stress this point! any sort of setback on your system. It is a good system but because of the third stage coming on with a timer you dont have the option to set back the thermostat. We can discuss until the cows come home how your system is installed and operating but in a nutshell, dont set your thermostat back and you will be fine. Besides that the loop is a bit on the shy side but not by much. Leave it at one temperature and leave it! And try to mend the relashionship with the installer, remember you get more bees with honey.

I have several systems installed and operating in much colder climates than you would think, try design of -29f temps and no problems. I think this has been over analized and the issue is the fact that you cannot turn your thermostat down at night, if you do it will be more costly to operate!

[Twilly]

Did Obama really get elected? Or did Twilli just dream that?

[Roscoe]

Did Obama really get elected? Or did Twilli just dream that?

More than likely it's going to be an ongoing nightmare

[Roscoe]

WELL....how are the wells and well piping............we got the bugs worked out yet or what..........:confused:

[jongig]

WELL....how are the wells and well piping............we got the bugs worked out yet or what..........:confused:

The men that came out today went over everything and concluded that everything is okay. They told me that the system is good at 32 degrees inlet water and 28 out. I said that I contacted the distributor but since they use a different distributor they didn't know the person I spoke to. They made a call to the their distributor and came back in the house and had me speak to him. He told me that his system runs at 32 degrees and it works just fine. He gave me some numbers but not being in the business they didn't mean very much to me. I gave him the name of the person from HVAC Inc. that I spoke to and he said he would be contacting him.

Not sure what to do and far more confused today than I was yesterday.

A few things I will do moving forth.

1. Connected the Subpanel electric meter today and I will keep a log of electric used by the unit.
2. I'll keep track of the loop temperatures.


I don't know what else I can do but just keep logging data.

John

[Roscoe]

jon

Is it possible you could be looking at this system a little too hard, is it working?

You may be scaring the hell out of them inadvertently...ie "I'm going to sue your ass off".....

You have a 1 yr guaranty soups to nuts...right.........;)

Maybe get them to add a 10 yr warranty, and guaranty it will hold temp at design..........temps.

Just a thought..........:)


I'll get a couple a bedrooms with cable ready for you just in case................hehehehe.......:p

[burner man]

The men that came out today went over everything and concluded that everything is okay. They told me that the system is good at 32 degrees inlet water and 28 out. I said that I contacted the distributor but since they use a different distributor they didn't know the person I spoke to. They made a call to the their distributor and came back in the house and had me speak to him. He told me that his system runs at 32 degrees and it works just fine. He gave me some numbers but not being in the business they didn't mean very much to me. I gave him the name of the person from HVAC Inc. that I spoke to and he said he would be contacting him.

Not sure what to do and far more confused today than I was yesterday.

A few things I will do moving forth.

1. Connected the Subpanel electric meter today and I will keep a log of electric used by the unit.
2. I'll keep track of the loop temperatures.


I don't know what else I can do but just keep logging data.

John

What you have is a traditional Geothermal system, it is (or should be) designed to heat 75% of your heating load. The problem comes when you setback the thermostat, when the unit comes on to recover the temperature after a short while the elctric strip heat comes on. Bye Bye cheap*operation! That is the drawback with this type of system, normally a loop temp of 32 is just fine, it is just a bit early in the season for it to be that low. I would expect to see 38 to 42 right now, the low temp may be a result of to much antifreeze in the loop. You could have it tested, if it is Methanol, a 25% mix is ideal anything over that and the loop temp drops artificially. I have read as many post as possible here, I think other than some tweaking you have a good system.

Alot of my clients with this type of system turn off the electric strip heat, and turn them on when the weather gets colder.

[burner man]

I just glanced over the posts again and something caught my attention, you mentioned the loop temp started out in the 45 degree range but dropped off quickly. That sounds exactly like to much antifreeze concentration, do you know what the antifreeze type is? What is the concentration? And please dont let anyone hang a set of refrigerant guages on the unit! If the antifreeze level is to high and the mix gets diluted, the loop temp will come back up very quickly. So remember, 25% methanol 75% water mix is ideal, I ont have the numbers handy but if I remember correctly a specific gravity of .98 is needed. ( Dont take that number litterally I work with ethanol, it is a bit different) The antifreeze (Methanol) does not have the ability to hold as much heat as water does, that is why to much of it is not good.

I am in Northern Canada, the mean earth temperature here is 38, that is what I would expect to see as a begining loop temp this time of year. The same would be for you and your area, I suspecta mean earth temp in the mid to low 40 degree range.

Chin up, I dont think you have a bad system at all.

[junkhound]

They told me that the system is good at 32 degrees inlet water and 28 out.

Did they also confess that they sold you a 1-1/2T system for the price of a 4T system??? The numbers just do NOT compute, unless the system is actually pumping 24 GPM! Since your wife is an engineer, have them show her the calculations on how they get 4T from 8 GPM at 4F - when you get down to 0F outside, they should be getting alot of 'no heat' calls, esp if they have sold the same bill of goods to others in the area.
Akin to the 200 MPG carb myths.

Unfortunately, such incompetence rubs off on others in the business.

[watercop]

Just now read whole thread - my thoughts:

1) 3 tons / 2400 SF probably OK if house is modern and tight, though Manual J calc would be needed to confirm.

2) Difficulty heating one distant room not surprising in situation where geo retrofitted in place of former gas fired hot air since geo heated air is cooler than gas fired hot air. Geo is more vulnerable to ductwork shortcomings owing to its much lower heating Delta-Ts. Manual D calculation would confirm.

3) 4 deg F water Delta T across unit is a problem - water flow may be too high or there's been a major loss of refrigerant as suggested earlier. Someone should measure Delta P across unit waterside to approximate actual water flow.

4) 10 deg F air Delta T across unit at low stage is likely a problem - should be more like 20. Could be too much air - poor airflow selections by installer, but most systems flow too little rather than too much air. HO's grill blocking likely reduced airflow by increasing static beyond what ECM blower will provide set flows. This seems to me to support a refrigerant problem

5) System should handle small setbacks OK as long as strip heat does not come on during recovery.

6) I have limited closed loop experience but the fact that one well is tee-d off the main lines suggests straight through well is getting most of the flow as others have noted. System could well be under-looped, but a site-specific design calculation is needed to confirm.

7) 32 deg EWT is a problem, but system should still make 80-90 % of nominal tonnage with 32 EWT, at some expense in expected COP. November's 32 EWT may well be a fond memory in January...

8) That this system can't make HO comfortable in November bodes badly for January. $200 light bill may become $400.

9) Desuperheater looks well plumbed to its own preheat tank - very good. However all that copper needs about $20 worth of Armaflex insulation. Desuper should be disabled until these issues are resolved, but do bear in mind that desuper should divert no more than approx 10% of system capacity, so should not be major factor in these issues.

10) HO needs disinterested expert onsite analysis to resolve / eliminate all issues raised here. If HO's statements here are substantially truthful, presoent installer is not up to the task. Roboteq's advice to seek intervention by distributor is well put

I spend much time at Greenbuilding talk, where there is a specialty forum for geo. GBT is less tightly moderated and has looser rules for direct assistance. I encourage the HO to join us there. Though things are looser at GBT, I'm disappointed at the number of irrelevant, unhelpful posts made here on this thread, despite this site's tighter rules of engagement.

[jongig]

jon

Is it possible you could be looking at this system a little too hard, is it working?

You may be scaring the hell out of them inadvertently...ie "I'm going to sue your ass off".....

You have a 1 yr guaranty soups to nuts...right.........;)

Maybe get them to add a 10 yr warranty, and guaranty it will hold temp at design..........temps.

Just a thought..........:)


I'll get a couple a bedrooms with cable ready for you just in case................hehehehe.......:p

Like I said Roscoe the best I can do at this point is just maintain a data log and see where the data take me.

Not a sue happy peron or pushy so I kind of get stuck at times on the bad end of things but not hurting people is kind of my montra. I am fortunate in many ways and if this system never worked I'd pack up and move in with you and be thankful for friendship.

The system is working and as I type this I'm warm so all is good for now.

I own quite a bit of propane (not kidding) so if it gets cold we can turn on the fireplace. Purchased it cheap at $2.25 a gallon, not the best deal since today it's $1.35.

john

[GnarHammer]

Jongig,

I didn't bother to read all the replies to your original query, but I've run into a very similar problem with a house in Dubois, PA, that had radiant floor heat with a ClimateMaster GSW water-to-water heat pump. With outside daytime air temp at 28, the house could not get past 70 degrees. I would ask the contractor if he purged air out of the tubes because it's crucial that an adequate flow of water is attained (check the flow meter by the heat pump). If air has been allowed to remain in the loop, you may have an air lock which can add a significant amount of resistance to the system. Also, I would check the pumps on the flow control unit for any sedimentary debris that may have gotten into the pipes (good drillers know to be VERY careful about not getting ANY amount of dirt into the pipes). Even a small pebble will significantly affect the performance of the pumps. After addressing these two problems our flow rate increased from 7.3 GPM to about 14 and the system performs perfectly. Keep in mind, purging the air may take a long time especially if the system is filled with ethanol versus propylene glycol.

Hope this helps.

ps: I would ask the contractor to Armaflex all interior tubing leading from the flow control unit to the heat pump and also I would make sure that the attic space is adequately insulated.

[jongig]

What you have is a traditional Geothermal system, it is (or should be) designed to heat 75% of your heating load. The problem comes when you setback the thermostat, when the unit comes on to recover the temperature after a short while the elctric strip heat comes on. Bye Bye cheap*operation! That is the drawback with this type of system, normally a loop temp of 32 is just fine, it is just a bit early in the season for it to be that low. I would expect to see 38 to 42 right now, the low temp may be a result of to much antifreeze in the loop. You could have it tested, if it is Methanol, a 25% mix is ideal anything over that and the loop temp drops artificially. I have read as many post as possible here, I think other than some tweaking you have a good system.

Alot of my clients with this type of system turn off the electric strip heat, and turn them on when the weather gets colder.


I have no idea how the strips come on and as far as I know they don't. I did shut off the breakers anyway.

I did change the setback to about 2 degrees. How can you check the antifreeze in a closed up system?

I believe you're right and I do have a good system and we'll see how well it works. I will continue to update this thread so others can learn and maybe have an easier time. I also think adding data to this thread will help.

BTW, my EWT on the loop was 32 on 11/19/08. I have a picture of the temperature on the logger.

john

[jongig]

Just now read whole thread - my thoughts:

1) 3 tons / 2400 SF probably OK if house is modern and tight, though Manual J calc would be needed to confirm.

2) Difficulty heating one distant room not surprising in situation where geo retrofitted in place of former gas fired hot air since geo heated air is cooler than gas fired hot air. Geo is more vulnerable to ductwork shortcomings owing to its much lower heating Delta-Ts. Manual D calculation would confirm.

3) 4 deg F water Delta T across unit is a problem - water flow may be too high or there's been a major loss of refrigerant as suggested earlier. Someone should measure Delta P across unit waterside to approximate actual water flow.

4) 10 deg F air Delta T across unit at low stage is likely a problem - should be more like 20. Could be too much air - poor airflow selections by installer, but most systems flow too little rather than too much air. HO's grill blocking likely reduced airflow by increasing static beyond what ECM blower will provide set flows. This seems to me to support a refrigerant problem

5) System should handle small setbacks OK as long as strip heat does not come on during recovery.

6) I have limited closed loop experience but the fact that one well is tee-d off the main lines suggests straight through well is getting most of the flow as others have noted. System could well be under-looped, but a site-specific design calculation is needed to confirm.

7) 32 deg EWT is a problem, but system should still make 80-90 % of nominal tonnage with 32 EWT, at some expense in expected COP. November's 32 EWT may well be a fond memory in January...

8) That this system can't make HO comfortable in November bodes badly for January. $200 light bill may become $400.

9) Desuperheater looks well plumbed to its own preheat tank - very good. However all that copper needs about $20 worth of Armaflex insulation. Desuper should be disabled until these issues are resolved, but do bear in mind that desuper should divert no more than approx 10% of system capacity, so should not be major factor in these issues.

10) HO needs disinterested expert onsite analysis to resolve / eliminate all issues raised here. If HO's statements here are substantially truthful, presoent installer is not up to the task. Roboteq's advice to seek intervention by distributor is well put

I spend much time at Greenbuilding talk, where there is a specialty forum for geo. GBT is less tightly moderated and has looser rules for direct assistance. I encourage the HO to join us there. Though things are looser at GBT, I'm disappointed at the number of irrelevant, unhelpful posts made here on this thread, despite this site's tighter rules of engagement.


1. house on first floor is 2400 but I do have a 2,400 sq ft basement that is insulated and a zone on the system. The kid plays down there and so do I so we had it heated. The thermostat was just installed today and I set it at 62.

2. House is new and never had gas.

3. They told me today that the water in the loop is circulating at 8GPM.

4. Opened most grills back up. It didn't work so well with them closed up. The men today did not have a fix for the colder room. While they were her I could show them the room was 5 degrees colder than the main part of the house.

5. 2 degree setback.

7. Distributors numbers today sugests that the difference in temperature between 40 and 32 are very little.

8. $400 = bad.

10. distributor says all is okay... That is the distributor I didn't call but they did. I would like to find someone?

john

[jongig]

They told me that the system is good at 32 degrees inlet water and 28 out.

Did they also confess that they sold you a 1-1/2T system for the price of a 4T system??? The numbers just do NOT compute, unless the system is actually pumping 24 GPM! Since your wife is an engineer, have them show her the calculations on how they get 4T from 8 GPM at 4F - when you get down to 0F outside, they should be getting alot of 'no heat' calls, esp if they have sold the same bill of goods to others in the area.
Akin to the 200 MPG carb myths.

Unfortunately, such incompetence rubs off on others in the business.


I'll have heat but it will be the strip heat and an unhappy HO with a $400 electric bill.

[watercop]

CM makes available at their site a pdf with performance data: http://www.climatemaster.com/share/Res_All_Products_CLM/Section_3_TT27.pdf

From that I read and calculate that 8 GPM is OK and at part load and at 32 EWT you should extract 15 Kbtuh from the water so it should leave at 28 LWT. At full load (2nd stage) you should extract about 21 Kbtuh resulting in a leaving water temp of 26.5 or so.

That is not far from what you report. I missed that the house was never gas heated and that you are attempting to heat both 2400 SF upstairs and the 2400 SF basement.

I now conclude:

1) you are both underlooped and misplumbed for 3 tons.

2) Refrigerant / system charge likely not an issue - low air Delta T may be from excessive airflow - installer may have chosen higher CFM settings for ECM to get air out to distant rooms

3) System is undersized and / or you are overhoused.

We are not supposed to size by rules of thumb, but I strongly suspect an underlooped nominal 3 ton system hasn't a prayer of warming 4800 SF in NE Penna using 32 deg LWT. Diverting 10-15% of its capacity to hot water worsens matters, as does the fact that the domestic water lines are uninsulated.

As a point of reference I have the equivalent Waterfurnace unit conditioning 3400 SF, including basement and hot water. I have 71 EWT and 58 LWT, and the house is just south of Jacksonville, FL. We've had a chilly November, and on nights with lows in low 30s, system runs pretty much all night in low stage (2nd stage is disabled) to hold house at 72. House is new, tight, ICF construction with sprayfoamed attic - system and all ductwork within conditioned envelope. November light bill $83.

[cactusjack]

Is this not a 4 ton system ?

[RoBoTeq]

1. house on first floor is 2400 but I do have a 2,400 sq ft basement that is insulated and a zone on the system. The kid plays down there and so do I so we had it heated. The thermostat was just installed today and I set it at 62.

2. House is new and never had gas.

3. They told me today that the water in the loop is circulating at 8GPM.

4. Opened most grills back up. It didn't work so well with them closed up. The men today did not have a fix for the colder room. While they were her I could show them the room was 5 degrees colder than the main part of the house.

5. 2 degree setback.

7. Distributors numbers today sugests that the difference in temperature between 40 and 32 are very little.

8. $400 = bad.

10. distributor says all is okay... That is the distributor I didn't call but they did. I would like to find someone?

john
Who is the contractor's distributor?

[cactusjack]

48000 BTU 2 speed scroll compressor w/ boob job (410a)

[watercop]

Oops - somehow got 3 ton on my brain. My bad!

Editing above for 4 nominal tons and 8 GPM:

8 GPM still OK, though on the low side for 2nd stage. Extracted heat rates for 4 ton should be 20 and 26 KBtuh respectively and LWTs 27 and 25.5 or so.

4 tons at 32 EWT still a bit light for 4800 SF in NE Penna. Loop length and plumbing even more questionable. Double the loop length, plumb in parallel and EWT up to the low 40s would improve the situation.

I'd really like to review the Manual J for this house and then apply Manual S. I'd bet a six pack of good beer that a nominal 5 ton system more closely approaches design load even with 25&#37; coming from strips. I'd want to be sure ductwork would handle a 5 ton unit before making that change.

[watercop]

Cheaper fix might be to resolve plumbing problem with present setup so as to balance flow between the two wells and then add a mini-split to chilly kid's room and a vented Propane heater for the basement

[cactusjack]

How about unpluging 1 pump...reduce gpm to 12 (ck specs on pump)

[cactusjack]

I just glanced over the posts again and something caught my attention, you mentioned the loop temp started out in the 45 degree range but dropped off quickly. That sounds exactly like to much antifreeze concentration, do you know what the antifreeze type is? What is the concentration? And please dont let anyone hang a set of refrigerant guages on the unit! If the antifreeze level is to high and the mix gets diluted, the loop temp will come back up very quickly. So remember, 25% methanol 75% water mix is ideal, I ont have the numbers handy but if I remember correctly a specific gravity of .98 is needed. ( Dont take that number litterally I work with ethanol, it is a bit different) The antifreeze (Methanol) does not have the ability to hold as much heat as water does, that is why to much of it is not good.

I am in Northern Canada, the mean earth temperature here is 38, that is what I would expect to see as a begining loop temp this time of year. The same would be for you and your area, I suspecta mean earth temp in the mid to low 40 degree range.

Chin up, I dont think you have a bad system at all.

Take sample at pump,..pan ,screwdriver,..air...long hissing...answers 2 questions @ once,...good anti-freeze checker....save sample.

[cactusjack]

"And please dont let anyone hang a set of refrigerant guages on the unit! "

Good advice......question, what is the discharge temp for this compressor w/ 410a ?

[RoBoTeq]

How about unpluging 1 pump...reduce gpm to 12 (ck specs on pump)
Dual pumps do not create higher flowrate. One pump is pulling and one is pushing, just for easier flow, not higher rate of flow.

[crash11]

Jongig,

I didn't bother to read all the replies to your original query, but I've run into a very similar problem with a house in Dubois, PA, that had radiant floor heat with a ClimateMaster GSW water-to-water heat pump. With outside daytime air temp at 28, the house could not get past 70 degrees. I would ask the contractor if he purged air out of the tubes because it's crucial that an adequate flow of water is attained (check the flow meter by the heat pump). If air has been allowed to remain in the loop, you may have an air lock which can add a significant amount of resistance to the system. Also, I would check the pumps on the flow control unit for any sedimentary debris that may have gotten into the pipes (good drillers know to be VERY careful about not getting ANY amount of dirt into the pipes). Even a small pebble will significantly affect the performance of the pumps. After addressing these two problems our flow rate increased from 7.3 GPM to about 14 and the system performs perfectly. Keep in mind, purging the air may take a long time especially if the system is filled with ethanol versus propylene glycol.

Hope this helps.

ps: I would ask the contractor to Armaflex all interior tubing leading from the flow control unit to the heat pump and also I would make sure that the attic space is adequately insulated.I think you're on the right track, but in reverse. I believe he has a flow problem, but I think it's because he's flowing too much. If your flowrate is low you get huge temperature drops across the heat exchanger. When the flowrate is too high the heat exchanger can't extract heat properly and you get hardly any temperature drop. Also, with a high flowrate the loop buried in the ground can't capture any heat from the ground properly.

Original poster...... do you monitor pressure drop across the geo unit with reliable gauges? Your unit specs should have a flow curve that basically says how much pressure drop you get vs flowrate for that size unit. Check that curve/table to see where you are.

[crash11]

Dual pumps do not create higher flowrate. One pump is pulling and one is pushing, just for easier flow, not higher rate of flow.

two pumps in series most definitely DOES create more flow. For his size loop he doesn't need 2 pumps (just a hunch).

[hotwaterworld]

Log what your delta t is under current flow conditions then try valving off the out of pump station to loop by say appx 25% closed. Then log what you delta t is under same load conditions and same operating conditions. This may be a simple idenfication if system is over pumped and not picking up heat at loop or heat x as is should be. I would think you will see a mucher better delta T with limited info we have currently. Tim

[geodean]

I'm disappointed at the number of irrelevant, unhelpful posts made here on this thread, despite this site's tighter rules of engagement.

My feelings exactly.

[tecman]

I ran the numbers on the install, with the best info given. With glycol and 2 x 300" holes, the total drop is 38 ft-head. One pump only gives 10 gem, below the 12 recommended. A two pump unit will give 13 gem, and a Reynolds number of 3212, which is sufficiently turbulent for the heat transfer. BTW two pumps does yield more flow since a greater head pumping capacity results from 2 pumps.

The whole question of reverse return is moot in my mind. The purpose of reverse return is to equalize line lengths, and thus bore hole flows. If you have many holes in a line, and the incoming and outgoing lines cone in and run parallel, you would have the lowest drop at the first bore hole. Reverse return loops the return line back to equalize loop line lengths and thus pressure drops (see attached). Since he is using what is basically a "T" header for only 2 holes, lune lengths are essentially matched.

There is a major thermal coupling issue. I would not accept the argument from the installer that the temp drop is okay and you have heat, so all is well. Sure you have heat, but with the same efficiency as an outdoor air unit. That is not what you spent your money for. The deep ground temps are around 50 deg F, and your return water should be within 10 degrees of that value at this time of year. If necessary get an outside consultant to look at it.

paul

[marauderx]

Ok, thought I'd add to this as well, since I'm rather experienced with geothermal.

The head for the pumps should be pretty low, given that the loop is fully closed. ~600' total length + ~100' equivalent length for bends, turns, connections, valves, etc. = ~700'. At about 4' head per 100' length, this comes out to be 28' of head.

The problem with the low temperature seems to stem from the 32-28 degree temperature difference. This derates the efficiency of the unit significantly, and it is the reason why you're not getting enough heat. It sounds like the unit is operating mostly on the electical coil, which was likely never sized to handle the whole house, but sized just to compliment the heat pump.

With 32-28 degree temperatures, you are freezing the ground. This means that you will get less and less transfer, hence only 4 degree delta. You should be operating at a much higher temperature, with a low limit of about 40F.

I would ask the installer how the piping loop was put together. The loops cannot have a bypass of any type, as the flow must be pushed into the wells, not just circulating around the headers. I have heard an installer say that having them with bypass helps with circulation... which couldn't be more wrong.

[cactusjack]

52-53 FT. H20 Head loss @ 24gpm

32-34 FT. H20 Head Loss @ 12 gpm

all assuming 15&#37; P>G> mixture 63 gal H20 = 23 (+-)deg F. ( verify)

unplug leaving water pump. if correct

[cactusjack]

"The problem with the low temperature seems to stem from the 32-28 degree temperature difference. This derates the efficiency of the unit significantly, and it is the reason why you're not getting enough heat. It sounds like the unit is operating mostly on the electical coil, which was likely never sized to handle the whole house, but sized just to compliment the heat pump.

wrong.I would think..see my 1st post...all brands usually give options to 100 &#37; sequenced in....this case balance pt 16deg F +- (sized correct for 2400 sf )

[jongig]

"The problem with the low temperature seems to stem from the 32-28 degree temperature difference. This derates the efficiency of the unit significantly, and it is the reason why you're not getting enough heat. It sounds like the unit is operating mostly on the electical coil, which was likely never sized to handle the whole house, but sized just to compliment the heat pump.

wrong.I would think..see my 1st post...all brands usually give options to 100 % sequenced in....this case balance pt 16deg F +- (sized correct for 2400 sf )

The heat strips are not turning on. They don't come on unless temperture is off more than 6 degrees. This has never happened.

[cactusjack]

hmmm...sorry 'bout that, I was using WF spec's in my program,..CM not showing dual stage in mine,..however probably very similar,...I will try and surf some on their web-site to try and find your specs and look @ wiring schematic and Aux Heat diag and info on their website and get back to you.

[pyropaul]

Lots of posts in this thread. It may be worth mentioning that the ARI ratings for geothermal closed loop heating are at an entering water temperature of 32F. Looking in the performance data from ClimateMaster (I don't understand the comments about posting this "in an open forum" as ClimateMaster don't hide this information at all), the 4-ton two-stage Tranquility 27 unit has a heat output of 37,500BTU/h under those ARI conditions. Now as to whether the original poster's unit is supplying that is another question, but the heatpump itself certainly can supply more than 3 tons of heating with the loop inlet temperature at 32F (and the ClimateMaster figures already account for 15&#37; antifreeze). As to whether this is enough for the design conditions of the house is another question. The loop temperatures do sound low, though, for the location and the size of the wells which does suggest there is a heat transfer problem (air lock, bad grout contact or whatever). But if the heat load is being met without aux resistance heat, the cost should not be too bad since the rated COP under those ARI conditions is still 4.0.

BTW, I live in a cold climate where the ground temperature is only 40F best case and so it's not uncommon to have entering water temperatures in the low 30s here. So long as there is a good delta T and the unit is sized for the heat output at those temperatures, it's not bad.

Paul.

[RoBoTeq]

Lots of posts in this thread. It may be worth mentioning that the ARI ratings for geothermal closed loop heating are at an entering water temperature of 32F. Looking in the performance data from ClimateMaster (I don't understand the comments about posting this "in an open forum" as ClimateMaster don't hide this information at all), the 4-ton two-stage Tranquility 27 unit has a heat output of 37,500BTU/h under those ARI conditions. Now as to whether the original poster's unit is supplying that is another question, but the heatpump itself certainly can supply more than 3 tons of heating with the loop inlet temperature at 32F (and the ClimateMaster figures already account for 15% antifreeze). As to whether this is enough for the design conditions of the house is another question. The loop temperatures do sound low, though, for the location and the size of the wells which does suggest there is a heat transfer problem (air lock, bad grout contact or whatever). But if the heat load is being met without aux resistance heat, the cost should not be too bad since the rated COP under those ARI conditions is still 4.0.

BTW, I live in a cold climate where the ground temperature is only 40F best case and so it's not uncommon to have entering water temperatures in the low 30s here. So long as there is a good delta T and the unit is sized for the heat output at those temperatures, it's not bad.

Paul.
Where do you live that the ground temperature is only 40 degrees?

[Airmechanical]

I live in a cold climate where the ground temperature is only 40F best case and so it's not uncommon to have entering water temperatures in the low 30s here.Paul.

let's think about that Paul, if the ground temp is 40* and your entering temp is 30* you got problems!



.

[RoBoTeq]

let's think about that Paul, if the ground temp is 40* and your entering temp is 30* you got problems!



.
Not if it's a closed loop system that has absorbed ground heat over a period of run time. I just want to know where Paul lives that the ground temperature is 40 degrees. That would make the average annual air temperature 60 degrees. Northern Canada?

[cactusjack]

Minn

[larobj63]

let's think about that Paul, if the ground temp is 40* and your entering temp is 30* you got problems!



.

You need to study up on geo. :) Well temps drift by design - it's the limits you let it drift to that determines the design (aka sizing the wells). It would take 100% heat transfer to expect well temps to always equal ground temps, and that aint happenin'...

[Airmechanical]

You need to study up on geo. :) Well temps drift by design - it's the limits you let it drift to that determines the design (aka sizing the wells). It would take 100% heat transfer to expect well temps to always equal ground temps, and that aint happenin'...


thanks for pointing that out, that means i an not waisting my time on this website:rolleyes:

who said anything about 100% transfer, i still beleive "before any of your recommended studying"

that a 10* difference between ground temp and entering water temp is a problem

now i will do a little research to see if i can disagree less with you:)



.

[jongig]

thanks for pointing that out, that means i an not waisting my time on this website:rolleyes:

who said anything about 100% transfer, i still beleive "before any of your recommended studying"

that a 10* difference between ground temp and entering water temp is a problem

now i will do a little research to see if i can disagree less with you:)

.


One thing the installer told me was that he can't control ground temperatures. I don't see that the ground temperature changes in the area you live.

If I turn my system off for a few hours when I turn it back on my EWT is in the high 40s. After an hour or so my EWT goes down into the low 30s and if left on stage 2 heat it will go down to 32 EWT and not go much lower. As of right now my loop EWT is 31.9 and 28 out and the unit is on stage 2.

I have had the Electric meter connected now for almost two days and in the last 24 hours I've exceeded 60KWH for the heat.

The basement zone is on and set to 62 ad the upstairs is set to 69.

John

[larobj63]

who said anything about 100% transfer, i still beleive "before any of your recommended studying"

that a 10* difference between ground temp and entering water temp is a problem



It's not a problem, in and of itself. Well temps are expected to swing up and down 60 degrees or more seasonaly, in most cases. In this case (the OP's), we are concerned that the incoming temps are low for his region, at this time, as I'm sure you've gathered.


I'll let you look into it some... ;) :cool:

[jthom]

Lets review,

a new vertical bore in PA., Questionable install practises.
It is now late Nov, early Dec, EWT at 32F.
Still have another 3 months of the coldest winter to go through and your loop is already at the design Minimum as per CSA448-1 standard. This is the CDN standard with a colder winter design.

Your Installer states he "cannot control ground temps"- he is correct there!

An experienced installer knows how to design and install a loop to extract the energy from the ground for the whole year. Thereby ending up with a loop EWT down to 32F at the END of the heating season.

My loops are in the mid 40's that includes verticals , horizontals and pond loops. I am located in eastern Ontario with a winter design temp of -13F. I just checked my own vertical bore and EWT is 45F today.

Your EWT has no where to go but colder as the HP continues to try to add heat to the home. Be prepared to supplement your homes heating with electric heat this winter and watch you Electric bills climb for Jan, Feb.

You have to fix your Loop. Period.

[mr43]

i'm no geo guy myself but my brother in law had the exact same problem... it turned out to be his ground water was too cold.. his gpm from the well was ok but the return water was cooling off his supply causing his electric heat to kick in all the time... he eventually had the install contractor come back and the company piped the return h2o out to his firepond... now he gets 50 degree water supply all the time.. this is in northern mass by the way.. hope this helps

[gary wilson]

John,

I plugged along until page 7 or so. I'm pretty much a new geo guy. I did the IGSHPA training/accredidation, so I know what I don't know, and I
know what I didn't know before the training. I learned enough to know that without the training, there are many assumptions that take place with geo.

Up until page 7, I didn't notice any pressure drop numbers through the heat pump heat exchanger. This tells you GPM (you need the chart of course). Did you installer check this?

I liked the "hook up a hose" experiment, very cool.

Is this unit equipped with ECM or or PSC? (blower motor)

Can the installer CONFIRM air flow? Yes or no is an accepted answer. Not all hvac guys have the tools to do this (hot tip anamometer, flow hood, static readings). What is the external static pressure on the duct system when both zones are calling? If you installer doesn't know, that's not a real good sign. A "small" flex duct???? This isn't looking good!

Can you take another pic of the return air connection on your system? I'm curriuos about the air flow dynamics through the coil.

Did the installer appear to have a clue? (maybe a rude question)

Did the installers check the antifreeze level when they were done? (with that floaty thing, sorry, I forgot the name of this device)

Perhaps they can look at the refrigeration cycle.. amp draw, pressures, s/h and s/c to cofirm and/or scrutinize.

If the unit is producing its rated energy, then you need to point your sights towards your home. That's a whole different topic.

I was indeed confused for a while on your loop system.... you have two 300' deep bores? I thought you said 600' of pipe; please clarify.

the bores are tied together in parellel????? Are you positive they did the reverse return? I bet the reynolds number is too low, ask your installer to SHOW YOU his calcs and that the number should be above 2500 (turbulent>good< vs laminer>bad<)

Checking amp draw on the pump station may help steer the ship. Obviously if the install guys didn't effectively purge the loop, too much antifreeze, poor grout application... all lead to lame heat transfer and poor performance. Have your installer check amps and have him show you on the pump chart that it's moving the appropriate water (gpm)

I am stricken by how fast you loop drops in temp. I can't see this coming close to performing when the weather gets really cold

Thanks! Gary

[Airmechanical]

Well temps are expected to swing up and down 60 degrees or more seasonaly. In this case (the OP's), we are concerned that the incoming temps are low for his region




the difference in ground temp between summer and winter is not relavent to this discussion

enough heat is not being extacted from the loop

hence, if you have 40* ground temp and 30* entering water temp, it's not a good thing

and since you need no studying on GEO's;

question for you, with a ground temp of 40*

what entering water temp. would YOU start being concerned that not enough heat was being transfered from the loop to the ground?



.

[jongig]

John,

I plugged along until page 7 or so. I'm pretty much a new geo guy. I did the IGSHPA training/accredidation, so I know what I don't know, and I
know what I didn't know before the training. I learned enough to know that without the training, there are many assumptions that take place with geo.

Up until page 7, I didn't notice any pressure drop numbers through the heat pump heat exchanger. This tells you GPM (you need the chart of course). Did you installer check this?

I liked the "hook up a hose" experiment, very cool.

Is this unit equipped with ECM or or PSC? (blower motor)

Can the installer CONFIRM air flow? Yes or no is an accepted answer. Not all hvac guys have the tools to do this (hot tip anamometer, flow hood, static readings). What is the external static pressure on the duct system when both zones are calling? If you installer doesn't know, that's not a real good sign. A "small" flex duct???? This isn't looking good!

Can you take another pic of the return air connection on your system? I'm curriuos about the air flow dynamics through the coil.

Did the installer appear to have a clue? (maybe a rude question)

Did the installers check the antifreeze level when they were done? (with that floaty thing, sorry, I forgot the name of this device)

Perhaps they can look at the refrigeration cycle.. amp draw, pressures, s/h and s/c to cofirm and/or scrutinize.

If the unit is producing its rated energy, then you need to point your sights towards your home. That's a whole different topic.

I was indeed confused for a while on your loop system.... you have two 300' deep bores? I thought you said 600' of pipe; please clarify.

the bores are tied together in parellel????? Are you positive they did the reverse return? I bet the reynolds number is too low, ask your installer to SHOW YOU his calcs and that the number should be above 2500 (turbulent>good< vs laminer>bad<)

Checking amp draw on the pump station may help steer the ship. Obviously if the install guys didn't effectively purge the loop, too much antifreeze, poor grout application... all lead to lame heat transfer and poor performance. Have your installer check amps and have him show you on the pump chart that it's moving the appropriate water (gpm)

I am stricken by how fast you loop drops in temp. I can't see this coming close to performing when the weather gets really cold

Thanks! Gary

Gary,

Amp draw from the unit on stage 2 heat is 30 Amps +/- 1 amp. On stage 1 Heat it's about 23 if I recall.

I asked the men to check flow in the loops and they connected a pressure guage and gave me the figure of 8GPM.

The wells are not reverse return flow and I have pictures in this thread of the piping and a diagramed picture.

The 2 holes are each 300 feet. The total pipe in my system would then be 1,200 feet of pipe.

Blower is ECM.

[hotwaterworld]

drop was across the well field, might be able to figure from there. Also I think he Gary was wondering what the amp draw of the pumps were?? Tim
Ideally you would get the pressure drop across the heat pump heat exchanger as their are published pressure drops at certain flow rates. That is the easiest to figure.

[GnarHammer]

I think you're on the right track, but in reverse. I believe he has a flow problem, but I think it's because he's flowing too much. If your flowrate is low you get huge temperature drops across the heat exchanger. When the flowrate is too high the heat exchanger can't extract heat properly and you get hardly any temperature drop. Also, with a high flowrate the loop buried in the ground can't capture any heat from the ground properly.

Original poster...... do you monitor pressure drop across the geo unit with reliable gauges? Your unit specs should have a flow curve that basically says how much pressure drop you get vs flowrate for that size unit. Check that curve/table to see where you are.

Agreed, thanks for that. Still trying to wrap my head around the principles of geothermal systems (apprenticing for three months now), tricky business.

[RoBoTeq]

You need to study up on geo. :) Well temps drift by design - it's the limits you let it drift to that determines the design (aka sizing the wells). It would take 100% heat transfer to expect well temps to always equal ground temps, and that aint happenin'...
This of course is true for closed loop systems only, which the system in this thread is. Just making sure someone doesn't get confused with open loop system data.

[RoBoTeq]

One thing the installer told me was that he can't control ground temperatures. I don't see that the ground temperature changes in the area you live.

If I turn my system off for a few hours when I turn it back on my EWT is in the high 40s. After an hour or so my EWT goes down into the low 30s and if left on stage 2 heat it will go down to 32 EWT and not go much lower. As of right now my loop EWT is 31.9 and 28 out and the unit is on stage 2.

I have had the Electric meter connected now for almost two days and in the last 24 hours I've exceeded 60KWH for the heat.

The basement zone is on and set to 62 ad the upstairs is set to 69.

John
If your entering water temperature drops from the upper 40s to the low 30s, more then 10 degrees, then you do not have enough functioning loop for your system capacity. Either an air blocked loop, no grouting on a major portion of loop or something, but your system should not be cooling the loop ground area that much that fast.

[RoBoTeq]

i'm no geo guy myself but my brother in law had the exact same problem... it turned out to be his ground water was too cold.. his gpm from the well was ok but the return water was cooling off his supply causing his electric heat to kick in all the time... he eventually had the install contractor come back and the company piped the return h2o out to his firepond... now he gets 50 degree water supply all the time.. this is in northern mass by the way.. hope this helps
In this case, either the wells were too close together or the supply was downstream from a slant in the rock causing the return to run right back to the supply. Most likely the wells were too close together.

The system being discussed is a completely different type of system.

[GnarHammer]

I never did attach the picture of the piping to the holes. The picture only shows the joints but the right two pipes goto one well and the left two goto the other.



Looking at this picture, I wonder if the pipes aren't extending above the frost line. My boss and I are extremely careful to flatten the pipes as low as possible and to keep lengths short so that they don't bow up too much. This may seem like a really anal thing to do (it does take a lot of labor) but it safeguards against the line freezing. If this isn't resolved after your installer's next visit, then your distributor is the logical next source for a resolution, as others have suggested. My boss has had really good experiences contacting his distributors when facing mystery performance problems (reps have come out and have never left him without a solution).

[gary wilson]

Gary,

Amp draw from the unit on stage 2 heat is 30 Amps +/- 1 amp. On stage 1 Heat it's about 23 if I recall.

I asked the men to check flow in the loops and they connected a pressure guage and gave me the figure of 8GPM.

The wells are not reverse return flow and I have pictures in this thread of the piping and a diagramed picture.

The 2 holes are each 300 feet. The total pipe in my system would then be 1,200 feet of pipe.

Blower is ECM.

Can you tell me which post number, or at least what page? You're saying it's parellel but not reverse return? Not good.

Did you happen to observe the soil type? If you have clay or sand you're short for sure

Do the amp draw readings jive with climate master?

With waterfurnce, thier 4 ton two satge Envision series has a minimum 9 gpm and optimum 12 gpm. What does climatemaster say?

[gary wilson]

Dual pumps do not create higher flowrate. One pump is pulling and one is pushing, just for easier flow, not higher rate of flow.

wow, why does the pump flow chart say it does?:confused:

[jongig]

In this case, either the wells were too close together or the supply was downstream from a slant in the rock causing the return to run right back to the supply. Most likely the wells were too close together.

The system being discussed is a completely different type of system.


Wells are 20 feet apart and closed loop. I need to read ALL first before posting. Just a bit tired. SInce the house is new it needs lots of finish work and I'm close to being done.

[jongig]

Looking at this picture, I wonder if the pipes aren't extending above the frost line. My boss and I are extremely careful to flatten the pipes as low as possible and to keep lengths short so that they don't bow up too much. This may seem like a really anal thing to do (it does take a lot of labor) but it safeguards against the line freezing. If this isn't resolved after your installer's next visit, then your distributor is the logical next source for a resolution, as others have suggested. My boss has had really good experiences contacting his distributors when facing mystery performance problems (reps have come out and have never left him without a solution).

The pipes in the picture are above the frost line but this is before we filed the back yard. I personally insulated the piupes anyway using spray foam and sandwhiched the pipes in dow-board.

My installer is gone and done and without anything to back up my thoughts that the loop is cold I will pay him and live with it. I just don't know what else to do because he says it works and I can't argue because the house is warm.

The distributor told me over the phone that his loop in Lancaster PA runs at 32 degrees and not to worry about it.

[jongig]

Loop plumbing. Picture shows the loop and in this thread I have this same picture in a diagram.

The bottom pipes that lead up to the T's are in/out of house. The side-out of the t's goes to Well1 and the top to the T's go to Well2. The pipes to the t's are 1.25 inch and the pipes to the wells from the T's is 1 inch.

It is not a reverse return or a balanced flow design. I did complain but the installer told me it does not make a difference and so I stopped complaining.

[geodean]

[QUOTE Originally Posted by RoBoTeq
Dual pumps do not create higher flowrate. One pump is pulling and one is pushing, just for easier flow, not higher rate of flow.:[/QUOTE]

This is not an accurate statement. Dual pumps in series with result in more pressure which will result in more flow.

[geodean]

Jon,

You have been given a lot of bad advice on this forum. If you want to email me, I will be happy to help you sort this out. My email is listed in my public profile.


Do not accept your installers statement that your system is working fine. There is no way that your loop should be at 32° at this time of year. I know several engineers who design geo sytems that would back you up on this.

You paid good money and you deserve a system that works right.

[gary wilson]

Here is a better picture since you can't see the actual wells in the picture.

1.25 inch out to T and then 1 inch down into wells.

Yeah, I'm new at geo but not hydronics. You need to dig it up and re-pipe it. While you're at it, nicely ask if they can drop you another bore....

[RoBoTeq]

wow, why does the pump flow chart say it does?:confused:
Because with one pump pushing and the other pump pulling the fluid flows easier. With that much piping, you do not want to have just one pump doing all of the work.

[tecman]

Loop plumbing. Picture shows the loop and in this thread I have this same picture in a diagram.

The bottom pipes that lead up to the T's are in/out of house. The side-out of the t's goes to Well1 and the top to the T's go to Well2. The pipes to the t's are 1.25 inch and the pipes to the wells from the T's is 1 inch.

It is not a reverse return or a balanced flow design. I did complain but the installer told me it does not make a difference and so I stopped complaining.

Deep ground temps in your area are 50-52 degrees. If the loop is coupled to the ground properly, your return water should only be a couple of degrees below this point. I have done a few closed loop well systems in the Allentown area. Return temps this time of year are close to 50 deg. As the season progresses, the temps will drop somewhat, but not to 30 deg.

You need to have someone else look at the system. Call Climatemaster to get their comments. You have a problem with the install, for sure. The COP (efficiency) between 30 and 50 deg water is 3.5 to 4.7 (35% more efficient). Get help from someone, but I would not stand up for the BS he is feeding you.

paul

[RoBoTeq]

The pipes in the picture are above the frost line but this is before we filed the back yard. I personally insulated the piupes anyway using spray foam and sandwhiched the pipes in dow-board.

My installer is gone and done and without anything to back up my thoughts that the loop is cold I will pay him and live with it. I just don't know what else to do because he says it works and I can't argue because the house is warm.

The distributor told me over the phone that his loop in Lancaster PA runs at 32 degrees and not to worry about it.
Did you say who this distributor is? I am also in Lancaster and can't see why a system would have 32 degree entering water this time of year.

[RoBoTeq]

[QUOTE Originally Posted by RoBoTeq
Dual pumps do not create higher flowrate. One pump is pulling and one is pushing, just for easier flow, not higher rate of flow.:

This is not an accurate statement. Dual pumps in series with result in more pressure which will result in more flow.[/quote]
But you cannot just turn one pump off with that much loop.

[RoBoTeq]

Jon,

You have been given a lot of bad advice on this forum. If you want to email me, I will be happy to help you sort this out. My email is listed in my public profile.


Do not accept your installers statement that your system is working fine. There is no way that your loop should be at 32° at this time of year. I know several engineers who design geo sytems that would back you up on this.

You paid good money and you deserve a system that works right.
With all due respect, which you are not showing the members of this forum, what makes you think this site is a place for you to come to, criticize others, then not openly discuss your criticisms?

Is there some reason you don't want those of us who are so wrong to know what you know?

[RoBoTeq]

Yeah, I'm new at geo but not hydronics. You need to dig it up and re-pipe it. While you're at it, nicely ask if they can drop you another bore....
:DI like the way you think.

I am new at geo also and not well versed in hydronics, as you have noted:cool:. My cooked air background still allows me to understand the basics of thermodynamics which is why I agree that the loop is the problem.

[larobj63]

[QUOTE Originally Posted by RoBoTeq
Dual pumps do not create higher flowrate. One pump is pulling and one is pushing, just for easier flow, not higher rate of flow.:


This is not an accurate statement. Dual pumps in series with result in more pressure which will result in more flow.

That being said, two in series is a common solution to a high-head & low-flow requirement that may not be available from any one pump.

[larobj63]

the difference in ground temp between summer and winter is not relavent to this discussion

enough heat is not being extacted from the loop

hence, if you have 40* ground temp and 30* entering water temp, it's not a good thing

and since you need no studying on GEO's;

question for you, with a ground temp of 40*

what entering water temp. would YOU start being concerned that not enough heat was being transfered from the loop to the ground?



.


We got off on a tangent here. I think I took what you said out of context, or vis ca versa. If the average ground temp were 40, a 32 deg entering water wouldn't be so alarming. I believe the OP's average ground temp is much higher, and therefor current ground temp should be no-where near 40, and therefor his entering water shouldn't be any where near 32. Your first statement that I quoted said something to the effect that if the ground were 40 and the entering water were 32, you have a problem - well that is not allways or even often true, that's all. The person you quoted was from farther up north. That was my point, sorry if I sounded like a prick making it, it wasn't my goal...

This may also be taken the wrong way - but I take part in geo design during my day job, and much in the theme of "no DIY" in this forum, I am hesitant to start digging into the issues of the OP's system, except for in a general sense. I said in my first post in this thread that I was concerned about the well field design and how it was determined (rule of thumb, I take it). If I wanted to be a real boob, I would have said, "shoulda had an engineer design it, not the contractor", but that isn't fair to good knowledgeable contractors, because there are many of them. And plenty of engineers don't know much either... :D

Cheers.

[gary wilson]

My charts are showing to move 12 gpm through your 1" piping, even your dual-pump station isn't big enough. You need to hire a third party person with some basic design compitence. Not to mention the piping issue/no reverse return.

[larobj63]

My charts are showing to move 12 gpm through your 1" piping, even your dual-pump station isn't big enough. You need to hire a third party person with some basic design compitence. Not to mention the piping issue/no reverse return.

I agree. :)

[jongig]

Did you say who this distributor is? I am also in Lancaster and can't see why a system would have 32 degree entering water this time of year.

Recall that I called the distributor Hvac Inc. and they told me that the EWT could not be 32 if done right.

The installer called their distrtibutor and he told me 32 was just fine.

The distributor is;
Creative Energy
145 Earland Dr
New Holland, PA 17557-1502


If you put in my Zip code, 18436, into the contact part of the Climatemaste website they give you two distributors. One is Hvac and the other Creative Energy. I just happened to call HVAC inc. and spoke to them and they told me I could not have 32 degree EWT this time of year if the loops were working properly. Not exactly how he said it but this is what he meant.

[geodean]

Below is a pressure drop worksheet on Jon's system.

His heat pump needs 12 GPM for proper operation. His loop has 26 ft of head to overcome at 12 GPM.


The chart shows that one pump would give him the 12GPM needed. Two pumps will produce about 16 GPM. Twice the flow needed for his heat pump.

If the system is only pumping 8 GPM as measured by his installer then there is an obvious flow restriction.

If there was not a flow restriction, one pump would do the job for him.

While the header design is not the best, that is not the root of his problem.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f58/dewdean/ScreenHunter_15-1.jpg

[RoBoTeq]

Recall that I called the distributor Hvac Inc. and they told me that the EWT could not be 32 if done right.

The installer called their distrtibutor and he told me 32 was just fine.

The distributor is;
Creative Energy
145 Earland Dr
New Holland, PA 17557-1502


If you put in my Zip code, 18436, into the contact part of the Climatemaste website they give you two distributors. One is Hvac and the other Creative Energy. I just happened to call HVAC inc. and spoke to them and they told me I could not have 32 degree EWT this time of year if the loops were working properly. Not exactly how he said it but this is what he meant.
Go with what the tech guy at HVAC Distributors says. That distributor has an actual tech support division. The one that sold your contractor the equipment is a small company with no technical support division, only sales.

[tecman]

Below is a pressure drop worksheet on Jon's system.

His heat pump needs 12 GPM for proper operation. His loop has 26 ft of head to overcome at 12 GPM.


The chart shows that one pump would give him the 12GPM needed. Two pumps will produce about 16 GPM. Twice the flow needed for his heat pump.

If the system is only pumping 8 GPM as measured by his installer then there is an obvious flow restriction.

If there was not a flow restriction, one pump would do the job for him.

While the header design is not the best, that is not the root of his problem.



geodean:'

Your circuit lengths should be 600'. The bore hole is 300', but the pipe length with u bend would be 600'

paul

[RoBoTeq]

Below is a pressure drop worksheet on Jon's system.

His heat pump needs 12 GPM for proper operation. His loop has 26 ft of head to overcome at 12 GPM.


The chart shows that one pump would give him the 12GPM needed. Two pumps will produce about 16 GPM. Twice the flow needed for his heat pump.

If the system is only pumping 8 GPM as measured by his installer then there is an obvious flow restriction.

If there was not a flow restriction, one pump would do the job for him.

While the header design is not the best, that is not the root of his problem.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f58/dewdean/ScreenHunter_15-1.jpg
Thanks Dan. It is nice when we all can learn from others.

I am a sales rep who used to be a Technical Service Manager for a forced air manufacturer and so am technically inclined but not so much with hydronics or geo systems. ClimateMaster requires two pump stations for 3-1/2 ton and larger systems. If this would cause a problem, why would ClimateMaster require it and why do my many contractors installing these ClimateMaster systems this way not have issues?

These are not rhetorical questions. If there is something that a manufacturer requires that is a problem, I just would like to know. Thanks.

[geodean]

geodean:'

Your circuit lengths should be 600'. The bore hole is 300', but the pipe length with u bend would be 600'

paul

right you are... thanks for the heads up

Attached is the corrected version.

Now one pump will give 9 GPM and two pumps will give 14 GPM

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f58/dewdean/ScreenHunter_17.jpg

[RoBoTeq]

OK geodan, now that you have the corrected data, what are your thoughts on what could be wrong?

[Twilly]

Twilli wonders if Robo feels like grasshopper?

Robo ask him for his Geo badge...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxhuUdZzGYw&feature=rec-HM-rev-rn

[geodean]

I ran Jon's system through the Climate Master Loop Design Program.

Since this forum does not allow for the posting of technical data, I am not sure if I can post it here.

But the design calls for 800' of bore hole. They only gave Jon 600' so to begin with he doesn't have enough pipe in the ground. If he had 800' of bore length, his loop temp now should be about 42° and not reach 30° until the outside temp gets down to 2°

The deep earth temp at his location is about 51°.



From the pressure drop report that I posted, we can see that with two pumps he should be getting about 14 GPM. If he is only getting 8 GPM, then I suspect that one of his loops is blocked. The fact that his loop temp rises and falls so much adds the to blocked loop theory.


But it really tough to diagnose systems from a distance. If we were on the site, it wouldn't take long to zero in on the source.

[Roscoe]

Twilli wonders if Robo feels like grasshopper?

Robo ask him for his Geo badge...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxhuUdZzGYw&feature=rec-HM-rev-rn

ahhhh yes but can the young grasshopper snitch the snatch.....I mean snatch the pebble from my snitch......:eek:.....er.....hand.......I meant hand.....:eek:..

........ Can you
"Snatch the pebble from my hand, young grasshopper".............:D

[2nu2no]

What is a troll?

[gary wilson]

My charts are showing to move 12 gpm through your 1" piping, even your dual-pump station isn't big enough. You need to hire a third party person with some basic design compitence. Not to mention the piping issue/no reverse return.

oops, i saw the chart, i didn't split the gpm in half... :(

[jongig]

I ran Jon's system through the Climate Master Loop Design Program.

Since this forum does not allow for the posting of technical data, I am not sure if I can post it here.

But the design calls for 800' of bore hole. They only gave Jon 600' so to begin with he doesn't have enough pipe in the ground. If he had 800' of bore length, his loop temp now should be about 42° and not reach 30° until the outside temp gets down to 2°

The deep earth temp at his location is about 51°.



From the pressure drop report that I posted, we can see that with two pumps he should be getting about 14 GPM. If he is only getting 8 GPM, then I suspect that one of his loops is blocked. The fact that his loop temp rises and falls so much adds the to blocked loop theory.


But it really tough to diagnose systems from a distance. If we were on the site, it wouldn't take long to zero in on the source.

Your plane ticket is in the mail...
:D

[wagnerhvac]

Recall that I called the distributor Hvac Inc. and they told me that the EWT could not be 32 if done right.

The installer called their distrtibutor and he told me 32 was just fine.

The distributor is;
Creative Energy
145 Earland Dr
New Holland, PA 17557-1502


If you put in my Zip code, 18436, into the contact part of the Climatemaste website they give you two distributors. One is Hvac and the other Creative Energy. I just happened to call HVAC inc. and spoke to them and they told me I could not have 32 degree EWT this time of year if the loops were working properly. Not exactly how he said it but this is what he meant.

To put in my two sense Ignore what HVAC says They bought out Hummer equipment and they only have one tech guy from that company everyone else at HVAC tech wise I would take with a grain of salt.

I work with Fred from Creative Energy He is sharp as a tack. and you being in Scranton area is the coldest area in PA. I would question if you are getting much loop flow through the one loop that has the two elbows on, when piping in parallel the two loops need to be within 5% of lenghts for even flow . Revers return is not going to do much on a two loop system ( same thing) I worked for Fred from September to February. I found it interesting how many heating guys have no clue on geothermal. I left because I couldn't take it anymore and figured I will continue installing on my own.

Ask Your heating Contractor if Creative Energy designed your system. If they did they will help you out. If the contractor designed it himself and didn't follow Creative Energy's advice you will have to deal with your installer.

[wagnerhvac]

I purchased a new home and had a heating contractor install a forced air, closed loop, 4-ton geothermal system. The system is a Tranquility 27 which is 2 stages and has a third stage that is electric resistance. I've received little information about its workings and we are not really happy with the heat. Besides I hoped my electric bill would not be so high and it's over $200 and for a 2,400 SQ ft house it seems like alot.

I programmed the thermostat for 65 degree days and 70 evenings and 67 degree nights.

The unit can not heat the house on a 30s day from 65 to 70 by the time we go to bed 9-10PM. I was told that I shouldn't set the temperature so low durring the day or I could have the third stage come on sooner. My kids room has never seen 70. My wife thinks we have to suplement our heat by using the LP fireplace.

I've placed temperature probes everywhere.

Temperature of the loop is 32 in and 28 out when it runs for awhile.

Temperature of the air from the unit is either 78-80 or 88-90, first and second stage.

My kids room gets as high as 68 but never 70. I've shut many grates off and so now I hear whistling.

The unit runs nearly all the time.

The house is dry and about 35% humidity.

We're not even cold outside yet and I wonder if we'll be warm and scared of the electric bill.

Thanks very much for taking the time to read this.


I missed the part of you setting back your stats my question is why? the geothermal is designed for comfort meaning your system will run on low speed most of the time. you are being counter productive. your loop can get that cold if it runs full tilt to regain 5 degrees. do you have zoning?

[geodean]

When figuring pressure drops each elbow is the equivalent of 2.5 feet of pipe.


So the two elbows would be like adding five feet of pipe or .43 ft of head.

See attachment below.

This is not enough to make a difference in this situation.

[gary wilson]

To put in my two sense Ignore what HVAC says They bought out Hummer equipment and they only have one tech guy from that company everyone else at HVAC tech wise I would take with a grain of salt.

I work with Fred from Creative Energy He is sharp as a tack. and you being in Scranton area is the coldest area in PA. I would question if you are getting much loop flow through the one loop that has the two elbows on, when piping in parallel the two loops need to be within 5% of lenghts for even flow . Revers return is not going to do much on a two loop system ( same thing) I worked for Fred from September to February. I found it interesting how many heating guys have no clue on geothermal. I left because I couldn't take it anymore and figured I will continue installing on my own.

Ask Your heating Contractor if Creative Energy designed your system. If they did they will help you out. If the contractor designed it himself and didn't follow Creative Energy's advice you will have to deal with your installer.

Yea, can Fred come on here and confirm the piping is correct please? The first loop is seeing the greatest supply pressure and the greatest return pressure.

[cactusjack]

LOL..I'm beginning to see why they didn't listen to Nikola Tesla or did they ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOmY-cVnJJM

[RoBoTeq]

I ran Jon's system through the Climate Master Loop Design Program.

Since this forum does not allow for the posting of technical data, I am not sure if I can post it here.

But the design calls for 800' of bore hole. They only gave Jon 600' so to begin with he doesn't have enough pipe in the ground. If he had 800' of bore length, his loop temp now should be about 42° and not reach 30° until the outside temp gets down to 2°

The deep earth temp at his location is about 51°.



From the pressure drop report that I posted, we can see that with two pumps he should be getting about 14 GPM. If he is only getting 8 GPM, then I suspect that one of his loops is blocked. The fact that his loop temp rises and falls so much adds the to blocked loop theory.


But it really tough to diagnose systems from a distance. If we were on the site, it wouldn't take long to zero in on the source.
Now we're talking. The loop has been the prime suspect all along.

We usually don't get this technically involved on an open forum. I personally feel this is a somewhat special case. We can be pretty certain that this is not a DIY job and maybe, just maybe, some potential DIYers will think twice about trying to do a geo job without professionals.

So, what can cause a restriction? It is not really likely that there is actually something inside of the tubing. With as tough as that tubing is, it would be equally unlikely that the tubing has been crushed or bent. That leaves air.

So, would the best first thing to do to dig up the section of the loop where the wells connect and redo the lines so that the loop has a reverse return design? If nothing else, digging up that section of piping will give us more precise data on what each well is doing temperature wise.

If correcting the piping loop does not do the trick, an additional well could then be drilled and piped into the now exposed loop system.

[RoBoTeq]

Your plane ticket is in the mail...
:D
You have some very good local experts if your contractor would just contact them instead of just saying your system is good because his sales rep says it is good.

I am one of those sales reps. I know enough about geo systems to get myself into trouble when things get really hairy. I also have the experts at my disposal when I cannot handle an issue. I don't just deny that there is an issue.

Yes twilli, RoBo is the grasshopper. Yes, RoBo will get that pebble;)

[RoBoTeq]

To put in my two sense Ignore what HVAC says They bought out Hummer equipment and they only have one tech guy from that company everyone else at HVAC tech wise I would take with a grain of salt.

I work with Fred from Creative Energy He is sharp as a tack. and you being in Scranton area is the coldest area in PA. I would question if you are getting much loop flow through the one loop that has the two elbows on, when piping in parallel the two loops need to be within 5% of lenghts for even flow . Revers return is not going to do much on a two loop system ( same thing) I worked for Fred from September to February. I found it interesting how many heating guys have no clue on geothermal. I left because I couldn't take it anymore and figured I will continue installing on my own.

Ask Your heating Contractor if Creative Energy designed your system. If they did they will help you out. If the contractor designed it himself and didn't follow Creative Energy's advice you will have to deal with your installer.
Actually, HVAC Dist. has three full time technical guys available. The Hummer Equipment transition was about as smooth as any new ownership transition:rolleyes:, but the geothermal issues have been pretty much ironed out and are running smoothly. How many full time technical people does Energy Concepts have? How many of Energy Concepts staff are full time applications people who can help with system design?

So, what do you think is the problem with this system? Why do you think there is so much electrical usage?

And another thing:cool:; you have a Carrier unit on your website. Why aren't you buying your geo equipment from Pearce?;)

[Roscoe]

What is a troll?

ahhhhhhh ................why that's easy....!!....you are.....!! ...:p

[larobj63]

So, would the best first thing to do to dig up the section of the loop where the wells connect and redo the lines so that the loop has a reverse return design? If nothing else, digging up that section of piping will give us more precise data on what each well is doing temperature wise.



Yes and no. I might suggest digging it up to flow test each well individually to get a pressure drop through each (to pinpoint blockage), but this whole reverse return thing is a red herring in this instance. Look at post #225, geodean is right - the pressure difference created by those elbows is a small percentage of the total system head (the long runs up and down the wells are "driving" the system pressure loss). Would reverse return be ideal? Yes, and it's what I always design, but it doesn't make much difference in this case. Heck, the wells could be in series in this case. Reverse return is more concerning with much larger (multiple bores - commercial applications) well systems...

[jongig]

Today the house is set at 69 degrees and the basement at 60 degrees. Not seen the basement turn on but the upstairs has been on and I have a new low for the loops.

29.6 EWT
exit water temp is 27.8

John

[djw0324]

John, I have been watching this post for a couple of days now and you do have a problem with your loop system. Please call your contractor and have them look at it. This problem is not going to fix it self. The longer you wait the more problems you could have. Please keep us posted on what your contractor finds.

[gary wilson]

Yes and no. I might suggest digging it up to flow test each well individually to get a pressure drop through each (to pinpoint blockage), but this whole reverse return thing is a red herring in this instance. Look at post #225, geodean is right - the pressure difference created by those elbows is a small percentage of the total system head (the long runs up and down the wells are "driving" the system pressure loss). Would reverse return be ideal? Yes, and it's what I always design, but it doesn't make much difference in this case. Heck, the wells could be in series in this case. Reverse return is more concerning with much larger (multiple bores - commercial applications) well systems...

I respectfully disagree. I've had my fanny handed to me on hydronic heating systems where some knuckle head cut in new pieces of baseboard into an original one pipe / mono-flow system. I wasted hours and hours trying to figure out why a piece of heat I added to the original loop wouldn't heat. I finally realized the knuckle head shorted his mini-loop off the supply and back to the return right at the boiler.

If i'm wrong, I'll eat my words. Jon, get someone to dig a hole (carefully) and get some temp readings on those two loops. If you can run it in AC mode first that may enhance your ability to 'see' the heat (contrast).

IF there's a blockage, then I'll eat crow.

[larobj63]

I respectfully disagree. I've had my fanny handed to me on hydronic heating systems where some knuckle head cut in new pieces of baseboard into an original one pipe / mono-flow system. I wasted hours and hours trying to figure out why a piece of heat I added to the original loop wouldn't heat. I finally realized the knuckle head shorted his mini-loop off the supply and back to the return right at the boiler.

If i'm wrong, I'll eat my words. Jon, get someone to dig a hole (carefully) and get some temp readings on those two loops. If you can run it in AC mode first that may enhance your ability to 'see' the heat (contrast).

IF there's a blockage, then I'll eat crow.

I can't quite understand what the issue is that you had from your description, but it sounds like a totally dis-similar circumstance.

The well system has such long pipe runs that the difference created by the 90's in one of the two parallel circuits is almost entirely moot. Look at it like this - the pressure drop for one well loop is 50 feet. The pressure drop in the other is 50.43 feet. How different do you think the flow will be between the two? :) And those numbers are probably not too far off. It is much different when you're talking about two circuits that have 3 feet of head each. In that case, 0.43 ft is going to make a difference. You dig?

If one of the wells has a much higher pd, I assure you it's not from the piping configuration shown in the pictures. Like I said before, I'm all for reverse return design, but it is a red herring here. :)

[cactusjack]

Basics ..

1. Is not the 8 GPM readings taken at unit at P/T connections only indicating in this experiment the pressure drop across the heat exchanger ?

2. The home owners Temperature probes location before pump A (incoming) and after pump B (outgoing) are located at correct place to measure GPM in the loop by math conversion as we have previously discussed, indicating 22-24 GPM...correct ?

I may be wrong now.

[gary wilson]

I can't quite understand what the issue is that you had from your description, but it sounds like a totally dis-similar circumstance.

The well system has such long pipe runs that the difference created by the 90's in one of the two parallel circuits is almost entirely moot. Look at it like this - the pressure drop for one well loop is 50 feet. The pressure drop in the other is 50.43 feet. How different do you think the flow will be between the two? :) And those numbers are probably not too far off. It is much different when you're talking about two circuits that have 3 feet of head each. In that case, 0.43 ft is going to make a difference. You dig?

If one of the wells has a much higher pd, I assure you it's not from the piping configuration shown in the pictures. Like I said before, I'm all for reverse return design, but it is a red herring here. :)

I know, it's a pain... If the pump is pushing and pulling harder on the first bore, the second bore gets squat. The two 90s were never 'my' concern.. someone else mentioned the 90s. I can see how this could be confusing...IF it were rev ret then we could chat about "only a few feet", but that's not my point.

Also, have you ever tried purging a boiler system with multiple loops and no way to isolate each loop? aint happenin. The loop with the lowest pressure drop wins, the rest get squat, air bound loops. I'd be very surprised if loop B has any circulation. The true test is digging a hole and sticking on a decent K couple thermometer:rolleyes:

I've moved water through pipes all my life...I got a feeling about this;)

[gary wilson]

:o
Basics ..

1. Is not the 8 GPM readings taken at unit at P/T connections only indicating in this experiment the pressure drop across the heat exchanger ?

2. The home owners Temperature probes location before pump A (incoming) and after pump B (outgoing) are located at correct place to measure GPM in the loop by math conversion as we have previously discussed, indicating 22-24 GPM...correct ?

I may be wrong now.

Yes, but 8 gpm is 8 gpm....maybe I'm missing you point. 8 gpm at the coil is 8 gpm to the earth loop

You lost me on your second point, but it's past my bedtime. Last night I stayed up late and started getting all kinds of blury eye.:o

[cactusjack]

:o

Yes, but 8 gpm is 8 gpm....maybe I'm missing you point. 8 gpm at the coil is 8 gpm to the earth loop

You lost me on your second point, but it's past my bedtime. Last night I stayed up late and started getting all kinds of blury eye.:o

In this case pump B ( booster) is receiving at it's suction 8 GPM and delivering 22-24 GPM at it's discharge. correct?.....now air may still be a problem,...but I don't think so.

[larobj63]

I know, it's a pain... If the pump is pushing and pulling harder on the first bore, the second bore gets squat. The two 90s were never 'my' concern.. someone else mentioned the 90s. I can see how this could be confusing...IF it were rev ret then we could chat about "only a few feet", but that's not my point.

Also, have you ever tried purging a boiler system with multiple loops and no way to isolate each loop? aint happenin. The loop with the lowest pressure drop wins, the rest get squat, air bound loops. I'd be very surprised if loop B has any circulation. The true test is digging a hole and sticking on a decent K couple thermometer:rolleyes:

I've moved water through pipes all my life...I got a feeling about this;)


That's why ther's circuit setters for multiple loop boiler systems. The problem you describe happens because you need to purge before you can set the circuit setters and equalize or balance the flow. Your typical secondary loops in a house can have wildy varying lengths and pressures drops / fittings, not to mention the need to overcome static head in order to purge air! In this well field, you don't!!! You should be concerned about the two 90 because they are the only thing making the flow between the two circuits not equal! One circuit has 600 feet of 1" pipe and a pd through a "T". The other has 600 feet of 1" pipe and a pd through two 90's! What are we missing here? You keep bringing up examples that aren't relavent!

If there is air trapped in one of the loops, it's because it wasn't flushed properly. There should be minimal - no - negligable difference in flow between these two circuits! If it were reverse return, they could be exactly equal. As they are, the circuits should be within 2&#37; of each other.

I can see how this could be confusing indeed! :)

[crash11]

In this case pump B ( booster) is receiving at it's suction 8 GPM and delivering 22-24 GPM at it's discharge. correct?.....now air may still be a problem,...but I don't think so.
Actually that's impossible. You can't have two different flowrates in and out of a pump. I still stand by my original statement that he has too much flow. We haven't heard any update as to how the 8 gpm was measured. I think it's wrong. The pressure drop needs to be measured across the heat exchanger. I would love to know what that is.

[tecman]

There should be minimal - no - negligable difference in flow between these two circuits! If it were reverse return, they could be exactly equal. As they are, the circuits should be within 2&#37; of each other.


I agree with this. The loss in a couple of fittings will not make any measurable flow difference between two 600' loops. Measuring delta P at the inlet to the unit will give a pressure, that can be used to determine the the flow in the heat exchanger. If the flow is too low, then the delta T at the unit would be high. Easy to measure. But the bottom line is and has been that the loop water is too cold. If there is good ground contact, the return water from the loops should be near the subterranean temperature of around 50 deg for his location. I am convinced that it is a bad grouting job, leaving a large length of pipe with no ground coupling. If you recall from early on that there was an issue with the grouting rig breaking down. Low flow, high flow, indoor issues all would not explain how the loop water is so cold if properly ground coupled. Dig up the headers and get some readings. It is the only way !

Paul

[crash11]

I agree with this. The loss in a couple of fittings will not make any measurable flow difference between two 600' loops. Measuring delta P at the inlet to the unit will give a pressure, that can be used to determine the the flow in the heat exchanger. If the flow is too low, then the delta T at the unit would be high. Easy to measure. But the bottom line is and has been that the loop water is too cold. If there is good ground contact, the return water from the loops should be near the subterranean temperature of around 50 deg for his location. I am convinced that it is a bad grouting job, leaving a large length of pipe with no ground coupling. If you recall from early on that there was an issue with the grouting rig breaking down. Low flow, high flow, indoor issues all would not explain how the loop water is so cold if properly ground coupled. Dig up the headers and get some readings. It is the only way !

PaulI agree with all of this as well, except for one small detail I noticed in one of jon's posts. He said if the unit stays off for a decent amount of time, and then he turns it on......his ewt is reasonable (45-50), but it falls down rapidly. I still swear this suggests too much flow. He's obviously getting SOME contact with the ground.

[larobj63]

I agree with all of this as well, except for one small detail I noticed in one of jon's posts. He said if the unit stays off for a decent amount of time, and then he turns it on......his ewt is reasonable (45-50), but it falls down rapidly. I still swear this suggests too much flow. He's obviously getting SOME contact with the ground.

Right - some - not enough. :)

[jongig]

I agree with this. The loss in a couple of fittings will not make any measurable flow difference between two 600' loops. Measuring delta P at the inlet to the unit will give a pressure, that can be used to determine the the flow in the heat exchanger. If the flow is too low, then the delta T at the unit would be high. Easy to measure. But the bottom line is and has been that the loop water is too cold. If there is good ground contact, the return water from the loops should be near the subterranean temperature of around 50 deg for his location. I am convinced that it is a bad grouting job, leaving a large length of pipe with no ground coupling. If you recall from early on that there was an issue with the grouting rig breaking down. Low flow, high flow, indoor issues all would not explain how the loop water is so cold if properly ground coupled. Dig up the headers and get some readings. It is the only way !

Paul

Paul, would you do me a favor and email me your contact information.

John

[jongig]

John, I have been watching this post for a couple of days now and you do have a problem with your loop system. Please call your contractor and have them look at it. This problem is not going to fix it self. The longer you wait the more problems you could have. Please keep us posted on what your contractor finds.

They loked at the unit last week and say it's working correctly. I've contacted him since and emailed the low EWT reading I had yesterday. hard to say it's broke when we are warm.

I've used 205 KWH in 72 hours.

[RoBoTeq]

They loked at the unit last week and say it's working correctly. I've contacted him since and emailed the low EWT reading I had yesterday. hard to say it's broke when we are warm.

I've used 205 KWH in 72 hours.
The unit may be working correctly according to it's application, but as a system, your geo system has a problem that needs to be fixed if you expect to see a savings on your energy usage.

[Roscoe]

okok......I got a real basic question for you john.........was this system flushed out real good, so nothing settled in that coax coil to cause a low flow condition and a pressure drop............... before the circuit setter was used ......er ah........ just grabbing at straws like everyone else..................

I like experiments......jes kidding jes kidding...........winter's coming........and so's Christmas.........don't get too upset robo, it's only one day........:(..

...I'm kidding..............:D

About everything except the thorough flush, seen too many coils loaded up with junk do to poor install practices............;)

[geodean]

I've used 205 KWH in 72 hours.

I have used about 60 KWH in the last 72 hours. Don't believe the installer when he says your system is OK