My new Geothermal System

[tecman]

Just FYI, my own house, 3000 ft^2, I use about 5-600 kw/month for heating in the coldest months.

paul

[geodean]

I agree with this. The loss in a couple of fittings will not make any measurable flow difference between two 600' loops. .... Low flow, high flow, indoor issues all would not explain how the loop water is so cold if properly ground coupled. Dig up the headers and get some readings. It is the only way !

Paul

I agree. It is nice to see a rational post:):)

[Roscoe]

I agree. It is nice to see a rational post:):)

hey hey.........if that was directed at me ......:rolleyes:.....someone has to lighten things up around here.........this is like a Chinese fire drill with all the guessing going on in this experiment I mean thread...............:p

besides john likes my humor..........:p :p :p

[jongig]

hey hey.........if that was directed at me ......:rolleyes:.....someone has to lighten things up around here.........this is like a Chinese fire drill with all the guessing going on in this experiment I mean thread...............:p

besides john likes my humor..........:p :p :p

I have Buckwheat on DVD, what does that say about me. I just love the episode with the guy in the bear suit.

[Roscoe]

I have Buckwheat on DVD, what does that say about me. I just love the episode with the guy in the bear suit.

hehehe It says a lot, I knew I liked you for a reason......I think A Wild Man From Borneo was the best, even though Buckwheat wasn't in it........Stymie was.....

yum yum eatem up......:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXt0_25rHFo

If it gets too cold up there bring yer Our Gang Comedy CD's I'll buy the Cheesesteaks and beer.........:D

Anyhow was the system flushed real good, I'm no GEO guy but I can tell ya when the coax coils aren't flushed good it creates havoc. :eek:

[RoBoTeq]

I agree. It is nice to see a rational post:):)
Several of the previous posts have alluded to the same thing. Seriously; how can someone who made an error in their own calculations come off so superior?

I just want to know how to justify this so I can adopt it for my sales presentations;)

[geodean]

Just FYI, my own house, 3000 ft^2, I use about 5-600 kw/month for heating in the coldest months.

paul

Paul, I have some info I would like to share with you, email if you are interested.... dean at palacegeothermal.com

[geodean]

Seriously; how can someone who made an error in their own calculations come off so superior?

I was offering a compliment. Maybe you should take a prozac. :D:D:D

[RoBoTeq]

I was offering a compliment. Maybe you should take a prozac. :D:D:D
Sorry I misunderstood. I will increase my dosage of Paxil;)

[heaterman]

It took me over an hour to read this entire post, (I'm a big Buck Wheat fan, We be do'in O'TAY!). The most obvious course of action is to dig up the piping connections so that the loops can be evaluated. While it will be a pain in the ass, anything else is just guessing. Most of the advise or opinions that center around flow problems, restrictions and improper grouting of the vertical loops are all played out by the symptoms and the only way to isolate the problem is to get a shovel. This reminds me of the old saying "Doctors just bury their mistakes"! If the original poster is still on speaking terms with the installer and he wants to salvage his reputation as a Geo Thermal professional, he'll help. If not, time to hire out to a professional who will, document you every move and expense, and then take civil action. I have never ever in over 30 years of working in this industry walked away from or made excuses for something that we installed that did not work as I said it would, period, no exceptions. There have been times when a mistake was made and it was my fault (or one of my employees) and we have fixed it, at our cost. I really wish you the best of luck and hope you end up with what you paid for.

[RPowell]

Looking for service manual 160.54-M1. York YK with optiview panel.

[Roscoe]

hehehe yep .................Everybody's looking for something..............:eek:

was that a song or what................:D

[cmajerus]

The most obvious course of action is to dig up the piping connections so that the loops can be evaluated. While it will be a pain in the ass, anything else is just guessing. Most of the advise or opinions that center around flow problems, restrictions and improper grouting of the vertical loops are all played out by the symptoms and the only way to isolate the problem is to get a shovel.

Makes you wonder if a manhole would be a good idea for these installs to gain access to the headers:D Would add a couple G's to the price but hey, when your already spending $$,$$$, thats a drop in the bucket! Plus it would be a cool hideout for the kids:eek:

[Roscoe]

here's the answer...........:D......we're good now folks..........thanks for all the reply's...........:D :D :D :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJ8T0nuHwfg

[Twilly]

Twilli says all rational posts will be deleted immediately, only scientific misinformation is allowed in the residential section.....

Carry on

[Roscoe]

Twilli says all rational posts will be deleted immediately, only scientific misinformation is allowed in the residential section.....

Carry on

see twilli one fart smeller, I mean smart feller..................:D

[cactusjack]

Looking for service manual 160.54-M1. York YK with optiview panel.

hmmm..You might check with Chrysler Corp now owned I think by Ceribus Capital Mgmt. LLC , a subsidary of The Carlyse Group..according to CNN..but they may be to busy getting more of that bailout money...:mad:

[jongig]

No news except it's now near 60 degrees here in the last couple days so electric use has gne down.

I finally got the sub panel electric meter to work right and save data to a file. The picture is of the file in the last 12 hours or so but it's pretty neat. The total KWH to date is since I hooked up the meter which is a week today.

John

[gary wilson]

No news except it's now near 60 degrees here in the last couple days so electric use has gne down.

I finally got the sub panel electric meter to work right and save data to a file. The picture is of the file in the last 12 hours or so but it's pretty neat. The total KWH to date is since I hooked up the meter which is a week today.

John

Cool, can you tell me what make/model you're using for a meter? And, how do you attach thumbnails??

[jongig]

Cool, can you tell me what make/model you're using for a meter? And, how do you attach thumbnails??

Not sure what you mean by thumbnails. The picture I posted was just a screen print of the file created by the logging program. I have it set to record a electric reading every hour and log to a file. The file will get very long over time and so I'll probbably go to a 12 hour or 24 hour format. Not sure yet. I looked into meters and most are fairly expensive but this one seems to do a good job. The company is new and the documentation is not good but once up and running it shouldn't give me any more trouble. The software can read multiple meters but I don't see myself needing more than this meter.

http://ekmmetering.com/EKM_Metering/Home.html

I'm using the Model EKM-25EDS-N connected to a RS485 TCP/IP converter. This ports the data to my LAN.

[gary wilson]

Not sure what you mean by thumbnails. The picture I posted was just a screen print of the file created by the logging program. I have it set to record a electric reading every hour and log to a file. The file will get very long over time and so I'll probbably go to a 12 hour or 24 hour format. Not sure yet. I looked into meters and most are fairly expensive but this one seems to do a good job. The company is new and the documentation is not good but once up and running it shouldn't give me any more trouble. The software can read multiple meters but I don't see myself needing more than this meter.

http://ekmmetering.com/EKM_Metering/Home.html

I'm using the Model EKM-25EDS-N connected to a RS485 TCP/IP converter. This ports the data to my LAN.

By thumbnail i meant: on your post above you show the image of you power consumption. How do you attach the thumbnail to this sight?

I looked at that meter; is there an amperage issue? Seems like light gauge wire, and they make a comment about a 15 amp breaker.

[geodean]

If I am not logged in to the site, I see a small photo in Jongig's post, If am logged in all I see is the link. How weird is that?

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f58/dewdean/ScreenHunter_23-1.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f58/dewdean/ScreenHunter_24.jpg

[jongig]

By thumbnail i meant: on your post above you show the image of you power consumption. How do you attach the thumbnail to this sight?

I looked at that meter; is there an amperage issue? Seems like light gauge wire, and they make a comment about a 15 amp breaker.


They are talking about conecting power to the meter. The meter uses 240 Volts and a couple watts.

Nothing actually connects to the load being metered. The meter uses curent transformers.

[jongig]

If I am not logged in to the site, I see a small photo in Jongig's post, If am logged in all I see is the link. How weird is that?

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f58/dewdean/ScreenHunter_23-1.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f58/dewdean/ScreenHunter_24.jpg


I don't use hotobucket, I uploaded the image to the website.

BTW, If I recall the meter is good to about 100 AMPS.

[jrbenny]

If I am not logged in to the site, I see a small photo in Jongig's post, If am logged in all I see is the link. How weird is that?

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f58/dewdean/ScreenHunter_23-1.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f58/dewdean/ScreenHunter_24.jpg

You have images disabled in your profile. So, when you log in, the forum changes to your preference settings.

[geodean]

That was it ...thanks

[jongig]

As of today I'm about 50-60 KWH per day.

Climatemaster said they'd get involved but I've not heard back from anyone yet.

Recall that I have a cold bedroom that my kid is in. The temperature can be 5 degrees lower than the rest of the house. My wife who knows something about duct air flow thinks the flex duct is maybe the problem. The adjoining bathroom at least to use does not have any air flow.

My question is this. Can I use a anemometer to measure the air flow speed and then calculate the amount of air in CFM from the duct? If this would work I could go around the house and maybe see where the problem is.

John

[RoBoTeq]

As of today I'm about 50-60 KWH per day.

Climatemaster said they'd get involved but I've not heard back from anyone yet.

Recall that I have a cold bedroom that my kid is in. The temperature can be 5 degrees lower than the rest of the house. My wife who knows something about duct air flow thinks the flex duct is maybe the problem. The adjoining bathroom at least to use does not have any air flow.

My question is this. Can I use a anemometer to measure the air flow speed and then calculate the amount of air in CFM from the duct? If this would work I could go around the house and maybe see where the problem is.

John
Doing this is really not necessary. You already know what the problem is; that room is not getting enough air. What difference will your knowing how much air each area is getting make? You need to either force more air to that line by restricting lines with more air or increase the ducting to that room.

Why is the contractor not doing these things? Why is the builder not taking responsibility?

[Roscoe]

As of today I'm about 50-60 KWH per day.

Climatemaster said they'd get involved but I've not heard back from anyone yet.

Recall that I have a cold bedroom that my kid is in. The temperature can be 5 degrees lower than the rest of the house. My wife who knows something about duct air flow thinks the flex duct is maybe the problem. The adjoining bathroom at least to use does not have any air flow.

My question is this. Can I use a anemometer to measure the air flow speed and then calculate the amount of air in CFM from the duct? If this would work I could go around the house and maybe see where the problem is.

John


John at this point I think you may be beating a dead horse.......probably what scared the bajesus out a the installer..............maybe you need a hobby besides GEO.............heh just a thought........;)

[cactusjack]

Wow...what a great thread... experiment,...Lab...learning tool...and sometimes humorous...You couldn't get this kind of participation in any course....(how many credit hours Continuing Education is this thread worth ?) :D

[jongig]

Wow...what a great thread... experiment,...Lab...learning tool...and sometimes humorous...You couldn't get this kind of participation in any course....(how many credit hours Continuing Education is this thread worth ?) :D


4 CE credits will be given by the Jongig school of hard knocks to anyone who has actually read this entire thread. Just send me twenty bucks and I'll send you your certificate.

John

[Roscoe]

4 CE credits will be given by the Jongig school of hard knocks to anyone who has actually read this entire thread. Just send me twenty bucks and I'll send you your certificate.

John

stick yer CE credits............ ya owe me $1500 bucks fer putting up with this experiment......................err......thread... ...........:D

How's it going anyhow John...................the experiment I mean..........:p

[jongig]

stick yer CE credits............ ya owe me $1500 bucks fer putting up with this experiment......................err......thread... ...........:D

How's it going anyhow John...................the experiment I mean..........:p

I need your address to send you a check and also to start sending my stuff since we're moving in with you. et out the popcorn and old funny movies.

John

[cactusjack]

WELL...have we heard from the factory yet...how's the lab going ? Has the installer or HO figured out that the 8 gpm reading is actually the pressure drop(8psi) across the Coax.

The factory specs (page38) from table 9a : TT Coax Water Pressure Drop for your unit call for (4)psi to get optimum (lab) 12 GPM flow @ 30 deg F entering water for best HE numbers.

Time to turn (slow) the flow down thru the flow contol valve(circuit setter) after (booster pump B)and mark it(for future reference)...since factory requires 2 pumps over 3 ton's and I can understand that reasoning. :)

[jongig]

WELL...have we heard from the factory yet...how's the lab going ? Has the installer or HO figured out that the 8 gpm reading is actually the pressure drop(8psi) across the Coax.

The factory specs (page38) from table 9a : TT Coax Water Pressure Drop for your unit call for (4)psi to get optimum (lab) 12 GPM flow @ 30 deg F entering water for best HE numbers.

Time to turn (slow) the flow down thru the flow contol valve(circuit setter) after (booster pump B)and mark it(for future reference)...since factory requires 2 pumps over 3 ton's and I can understand that reasoning. :)

I have heard from the PA Climatemaster Factory Rep. He sent me an email and told me that the system should have been designed to operate between 28 degrees F and 105 degrees F. With this information and a EWT that has not gone below 29 I guess it is what it is. Regarding the energy consumption (KWH) of the unit he said "that it is hard to provide a definitive answer".

For those of you reading this maybe for the first time this all started when I emailed my installer asking him about the EWT and not receiving a response I then went elsewhere and received information that my EWT is low. With the knowledge from the information prvovided in this thread from those experienced in this field I thought I had a problem. Now that the installer, the designer of the system and the factory rep have determined that I don't have a problem I really have nowhere else to go and will live with what I have. As for the electric use, it is what it is and my savings are not as good as I had hoped.

I don't understand what you mean by "accross the coax". When the technician was at my house two weeks ago he told me my fluid flow was 8GPM.

I would like to write a paper on my experience and provide it to all of those who venture iinto this realm of GT experimenting as Roscoe put it. I realize many of you install systems and the systems receive very good savings to the consumer but this may not be the case in every situation as is mine. I was told that my costs for heating would be $100-$110 in the winter but I have NOTHING IN WRITING. I have a contract for the install and from what I can tell my installer did what he was contracted to do. My paper would start out by first making the statement that I believe in GT systems and I still do.

John

[Twilly]

Twilli was gonna read all this crap, but will just wait for the movie to come out.

[RoBoTeq]

I have heard from the PA Climatemaster Factory Rep. He sent me an email and told me that the system should have been designed to operate between 28 degrees F and 105 degrees F. With this information and a EWT that has not gone below 29 I guess it is what it is. Regarding the energy consumption (KWH) of the unit he said "that it is hard to provide a definitive answer".


You also had heard from the other factory rep that something was wrong. That other rep made that comment before knowing your equipment was not purchased through them. I would be suspicious if my heating bills were not substantially lower with the geo system.

[Twilly]

Twilli says maybe Robo is giving you a clue......Twilli is in the know

[Roscoe]

Twilli says maybe Robo is giving you a clue......Twilli is in the know

Did twilli just say jongig has no clue...............:D

[jthom]

We are now 23 pages deep,
lots of good advice,
even more crap advice from others,
system still not corrected, HO going to have to live with it and the electricity bills.



and then people ask why is the install the most important aspect of the installation!!!!!!



Jongig- please write that paper, it will go great in my presentation booklet to warn future customers of potential install horrors by new contractors....

[Roscoe]

We are now 23 pages deep,
lots of good advice,
even more crap advice from others,
system still not corrected, HO going to have to live with it and the electricity bills.



and then people ask why is the install the most important aspect of the installation!!!!!!



Jongig- please write that paper, it will go great in my presentation booklet to warn future customers of potential install horrors by new contractors....

So you are writing a how not to book................Or GEO Experiment #101

:D :D J/K

[jthom]

One of our biggest challenges selling HVAC equipment is to give the customers a chance to "kick the tires".

That is why word of mouth is so helpfull and a primary focus with our company.

Yet some times we get a lead for a new install from someone that is not famiilair with our company. We need to show the differences.

Hence the presentation booklet. Shows pictures of jobs, staff, licenses, insurance, customers letters and references.

Lately I have added "case studies". Case Studies are jobs we have gotten involved with to clean up someone elses mess. I have 5 Case Studies in my presentation booklet and the original installing contractors are still in business today- still selling jobs- still installing horror stories.

After 59 years of servicing Eastern Ontario we are seeing more horror stories than ever. Lack of skilled tradesman. More techs going out on their own. The lowest price is the best price. All contributing factors.

The worst part, every job that is installed and creates a thread like this is terrible for the HVAC industry. Buyer beware.

[jongig]

One of our biggest challenges selling HVAC equipment is to give the customers a chance to "kick the tires".

That is why word of mouth is so helpfull and a primary focus with our company.

Yet some times we get a lead for a new install from someone that is not famiilair with our company. We need to show the differences.

Hence the presentation booklet. Shows pictures of jobs, staff, licenses, insurance, customers letters and references.

Lately I have added "case studies". Case Studies are jobs we have gotten involved with to clean up someone elses mess. I have 5 Case Studies in my presentation booklet and the original installing contractors are still in business today- still selling jobs- still installing horror stories.

After 59 years of servicing Eastern Ontario we are seeing more horror stories than ever. Lack of skilled tradesman. More techs going out on their own. The lowest price is the best price. All contributing factors.

The worst part, every job that is installed and creates a thread like this is terrible for the HVAC industry. Buyer beware.

You mentioned buyer beware and you're right.

HVAC people will always be needed and in my case I met with a few and settled on this one. I did some research and in the end I went with this person because of a close friend's recommendation of the installer. My friend is also a tradesmen and a very good one and I trusted his recommendation. Needless to say he will never again make that recommendation and he and I are still good friends.

I wouldn't as an industry worry too much about my problem because most who read this will think that they are doing more than I and will not have the same problem. Probably that is true and just reading someone’s bad story will make the rest of you who do a good job even stronger.

Some of you care on a personal level and this thread shows that. It's very nice that you all contribute to this forum and try to help and I'd sure love to buy everyone lunch, except you Roscoe. Just kidding Roscoe and since you offered me a place to stay you've got diner waiting.

Print this thread out and feel free to add this to your book and remind those that you speak to that this is a decision that they will live with for a long time and the wrong decision will make them feel bad every day that they walk into their kids room and see the temperature is 6 degrees less than the rest of the house. Every night when I go to bed I leave my 8-year-old son in a cold room and so I got him a heating blanket. That was the best I could come up with.

John

[Roscoe]

One of our biggest challenges selling HVAC equipment is to give the customers a chance to "kick the tires".

That is why word of mouth is so helpfull and a primary focus with our company.

Yet some times we get a lead for a new install from someone that is not famiilair with our company. We need to show the differences.

Hence the presentation booklet. Shows pictures of jobs, staff, licenses, insurance, customers letters and references.

Lately I have added "case studies". Case Studies are jobs we have gotten involved with to clean up someone elses mess. I have 5 Case Studies in my presentation booklet and the original installing contractors are still in business today- still selling jobs- still installing horror stories.

After 59 years of servicing Eastern Ontario we are seeing more horror stories than ever. Lack of skilled tradesman. More techs going out on their own. The lowest price is the best price. All contributing factors.

The worst part, every job that is installed and creates a thread like this is terrible for the HVAC industry. Buyer beware.

Cool so you personally oversee every job.........hey I'm impressed

So when you walk on water is it heal toe.......or toe heal.........gimme a break...........:p.................:rolleyes:

[jthom]

I can only walk on water during the winter when it is frozen- AKA ice.

[Roscoe]

I can only walk on water during the winter when it is frozen- AKA ice.




ennnnnnnnnnnnnttttttttt ...hehe wrong answer..........the question was WHEN you walk on water..when....

Is it heal toe or toe heal


I'm still not impressed....ennnnnnnnnnnnnttttttttt :p:p:p:p:p.......:D

[Twilly]

Twilli got a lot of cases that could be studied....

[RoBoTeq]

Twilli got a lot of cases that could be studied....
No need. Penicillin cures most of your cases:confused:

[Twilly]

Twilli has also found Flagyl to be very helpful as well

[cactusjack]

Twilli was gonna read all this crap, but will just wait for the movie to come out.

StumpJumper...my service tech looks kinda like you,...(only he's about 4'-0"tall) said that's a great idea Twilli...maybe they will name it "Anger Management 2" and they could use you at the end of the movie as the guy that jumps out of the tree.....he also wondered what size crane they would need to get you up there....:rolleyes:

[hotwaterworld]

your sons room? I seem to think there is some CYA going on here on reps and installers part. This bothers me. Sure the unit is designed to operate between 28 and 105 but at 28 you only get a small amount of heat output compared to if your loop was at 35+ or so. It may not have anything to do with rep & equipment but there needs to be enough ground loop to allow the heat pump to cover the load of house. I just think something is fishy... Tim

[Airmechanical]

your son's room surely sounds like a ductwork issue

any other updates on your incoming water temp?



.

[rudylyon57]

I have a 3-1/2 ton Geocomfort split system that I installed about 1-1/2 years ago. This new install replaced a 3T 13 SEER dual fuel heat pump. Like jonjig, I took a lot of interest in the system design and performance. Unlike jonjig, my system has been working fine. Here are some stats simply as a another point of reference.


Water Flow
I have 4 X 200 foot bores (too much mud prevented achieving the 3 X 300 foot design). The 1" loops are plumbed in a 2 in series X 2 in parallel configuration with an indoor manifold for control and monitoring. I am flowing about 14 gpm (7 gpm in each loop) which is about 5 gpm more than the 9 suggested. Two Grundfos B26-116BF pumps are doing the work against a total head of approx. 55 feet (design agrees with calc). After this read, I may play with turning off one pump just to see what happens? Considering jonjig's relatively low head and similar pump capacity, I find it hard to believe there is only 8 gpm circulating. There is a problem. Just cross the loop and pumping head v. flow and this should be clear.


Circulating temperatures
Ground temps in this area (Roanoke VA) are about 55F. The lowest EWT I have ever seen has been 45F (during a few consecutinve days with 40+ HDD) and the highest has been 67F (with a few days with 25+ CDD). It is interesting to look at the static loop pressure as there appears to be a close correlation between it and the bore hole temperatures. Makes sense at the water and polyethylene contract/expand with temperature. I have a daytime & nightime setback of about 3F. One of the posters on this thread mentioned avoiding large setbacks...I agree and have seen the same problem where the system does not recover as quickly.


Air temperatures
I am flowing approx. 1150 cfm across the coil. With the desuperheater off I am getting a temp rise of about 32F and with the desuperheater on I am getting about 30F rise. These temps are measured on the furnace. These figures agree with Geocomfort specs even though I am about 150 cfm shy of the 1300 they call for.


Overall performance
I compared the old air-air heat pump system to the geothermal install by looking at energy (electricity & propane) consumption vs degree days for the past few years. From what I can tell, if I allow for 750 kwh/mo for non heat/cool requirements, the geothermal system is using 42% of the energy vs the 13 seer dual fuel it replaced (see degree-days vs. kwh chart attached). I have not used a drop of propane for backup since the installation was comissioned.

Food for thought!

[geodean]

Rudy, thanks for the positive news

[RoBoTeq]

I'd like to read a better report from the OP of this thread.

Has anything been done?

Has the manufacturer's rep and contractor done any specific testing on this system yet?

[larobj63]

I have a 3-1/2 ton Geocomfort split system that I installed about 1-1/2 years ago. This new install replaced a 3T 13 SEER dual fuel heat pump. Like jonjig, I took a lot of interest in the system design and performance. Unlike jonjig, my system has been working fine. Here are some stats simply as a another point of reference.


Water Flow
I have 4 X 200 foot bores (too much mud prevented achieving the 3 X 300 foot design). The 1" loops are plumbed in a 2 in series X 2 in parallel configuration with an indoor manifold for control and monitoring. I am flowing about 14 gpm (7 gpm in each loop) which is about 5 gpm more than the 9 suggested. Two Grundfos B26-116BF pumps are doing the work against a total head of approx. 55 feet (design agrees with calc). After this read, I may play with turning off one pump just to see what happens? Considering jonjig's relatively low head and similar pump capacity, I find it hard to believe there is only 8 gpm circulating. There is a problem. Just cross the loop and pumping head v. flow and this should be clear.


Circulating temperatures
Ground temps in this area (Roanoke VA) are about 55F. The lowest EWT I have ever seen has been 45F (during a few consecutinve days with 40+ HDD) and the highest has been 67F (with a few days with 25+ CDD). It is interesting to look at the static loop pressure as there appears to be a close correlation between it and the bore hole temperatures. Makes sense at the water and polyethylene contract/expand with temperature. I have a daytime & nightime setback of about 3F. One of the posters on this thread mentioned avoiding large setbacks...I agree and have seen the same problem where the system does not recover as quickly.


Air temperatures
I am flowing approx. 1150 cfm across the coil. With the desuperheater off I am getting a temp rise of about 32F and with the desuperheater on I am getting about 30F rise. These temps are measured on the furnace. These figures agree with Geocomfort specs even though I am about 150 cfm shy of the 1300 they call for.


Overall performance
I compared the old air-air heat pump system to the geothermal install by looking at energy (electricity & propane) consumption vs degree days for the past few years. From what I can tell, if I allow for 750 kwh/mo for non heat/cool requirements, the geothermal system is using 42% of the energy vs the 13 seer dual fuel it replaced (see degree-days vs. kwh chart attached). I have not used a drop of propane for backup since the installation was comissioned.

Food for thought!


A fine example of a sound design.

I think the two in-series loops in parallel was an excellent idea for your application.

And the zero back-up fuel usage - see, it can be done!

Can we inquire how you're looking for payback? We technically can't discuss prices in here, but, as a hypothetical, how many $500 casino chips would you have traded in for your installed system? :)

[jongig]

I'd like to read a better report from the OP of this thread.

Has anything been done?

Has the manufacturer's rep and contractor done any specific testing on this system yet?

I have the pipes dug up and I'm trying to find a K type temp probe that I can attach and burry the pipes again. I found a pipe clamp probe at Grainger and will have it Friday. I have a very small section of the piping dug up so that I just have access to the Ts and the 1 inch pipes from each well. I will attach a temp probe to the two 1 inch entry pipes before the T.

Manufactures rep has not responded to my last email.

Installer was supposed to be here last week to address my kids cold room, no call and no show.

Happy new year to everyone!!!

John

[Roscoe]

I have the pipes dug up and I'm trying to find a K type temp probe that I can attach and burry the pipes again. I found a pipe clamp probe at Grainger and will have it Friday. I have a very small section of the piping dug up so that I just have access to the Ts and the 1 inch pipes from each well. I will attach a temp probe to the two 1 inch entry pipes before the T.

Manufactures rep has not responded to my last email.

Installer was supposed to be here last week to address my kids cold room, no call and no show.

Happy new year to everyone!!!

John

Still playing with that GEO EXPERIMENT john??

I think ya got the MFG rep and the installer on the run............:eek:

I got the Little Rascals Collector's Edition for Christmas........hehehe

88 Classic Episodes on 11 DVD'S............................:D :D

[Twilly]

when movie comes out Twilli like to be original contractor and Roscoe be new contractor and Robo be "good" factory rep. Op can play himself.

[jrbenny]

A fine example of a sound design.

I think the two in-series loops in parallel was an excellent idea for your application.

And the zero back-up fuel usage - see, it can be done!

Can we inquire how you're looking for payback? We technically can't discuss prices in here, but, as a hypothetical, how many $500 casino chips would you have traded in for your installed system? :)
No hypothetical either.

[Twilly]

Twilli says no gambling either

[Roscoe]

when movie comes out Twilli like to be original contractor and Roscoe be new contractor and Robo be "good" factory rep. Op can play himself.

ROFLMAO.....:D.:D.:D.:D.

[larobj63]

No hypothetical either.

OK, OK, I retract the question. How about what year make and model car could you have bought for the same money?

I kid, I kid...

[RoBoTeq]

when movie comes out Twilli like to be original contractor and Roscoe be new contractor and Robo be "good" factory rep. Op can play himself.
If I were the manufacture's rep, I would have been on this job taking measurements and doing everything I could to either find a reason for a problem or providing firm data that there was no problem.

[Habeed]

Misunderstandings in fundamental physics I have seen in this thread :

1. "overpumping". Overpumping is NOT the cause of jongig's problem. If you were to increase the flow rate of his system to some arbitrarily large numerical value, only one thing would happen : the temperature of the water entering the loop would equal the temperature of the water exiting.

It has NOTHING to do with the problem : if you massively overpumped the system, you would merely waste a lot of energy running the pumps.

The actual heat pump does NOT need a difference in temperature between the exiting and entering water temperatures. A heat pump/refrigerator is a Carnot heat engine run in reverse, with the water acting as one side of the system (the hot side in the winter) and the air of the house the other side. The SMALLER the temperature difference between the desired air temperature and the water temperature, the more efficient the system will run.

2. The arguments about where the bends went are probably pointless, but actually, the way it is done is completely wrong.

You want to set up this kind of geothermal system in parallel between the wells, not in series. This minimizes the resistance to flow through the system, reducing the energy used by the pump.
Thus, you want to use larger diameter piping as a manifold...all the ground piping should be larger diameter than the pipe that goes in the well. So all those lines going horizontal should be a good 1/2" wider in diamter or greater, including the elbows. There should be an intake, and an exit manifold made from this wider piping. This ensures nearly perfectly equal flow between the wells.

What the problem COULD be : (there are no other possibilities)

1. The ground above jongig's house runs into Hell, which has frozen over. Thus, the ground temperature is below 40 degrees farenheit in November.
2. Jonig screwed up his thermometer probe placement
3. The wells are not transfering heat because of low thermal conductivity to the ground.
4. The wells are not transfering heat because the poorly constructed surface manifold creates such high resistance that all the water goes down only one well
5. The wells are transfering heat about as well as could be expected, but more are needed.

Jonig : for reasons #3-5, your system is NOT working properly. Period. Since you are not getting water that is near the temperature of the ground, but is instead colder, you have to spend more energy to heat your house. This is fundamental in the laws of physics : when you run a Carnot heat engine in reverse (a Carnot heat engine is a theoretical machine that is the best possible engine that can ever be made) the energy you have to spend is directly proportional to the difference in temperature.
Maximum (theoretical) efficiency = Thot / (Thot-Tcold)

Thot is your target air temperature (70 Farenheit, although to use this equation you have to convert to Kelvin)
Tcold is the temperature of water coming from the ground.

As you can see, the higher Tcold is, the higher your efficiency is. So, since your water temperature is 30 farenheit rather than 50 farenheit, your geothermal system is stealing electricity from you every single minute it runs.

It was not installed properly, and it needs to be fixed. Be ready to take your installer to court if you have to, as this is a defect that is readily provable and understandable.

Sure, it might be 'warm enough' to survive at the moment. But that isn't the point : you could build your house like a giant tent, and use those huge propane burners fed by an enormous blower to heat your house. But that wouldn't be efficient, and you would have to pay for the extra energy used.


QUICK FIX : Get a piping kit, and hook the wells up in SERIES. This will force all of the water to go up and down both wells. It's a 1 hour job once you have everything dug up, but bleeding out the air has to be done.
It will lower flow, but it should raise water temperature entering the system.

If water temperature doesn't go up, then the problem is with the grouting.

Water temperature entering the system may go up, but there may not be enough flow now that the system is in series. You would see a very low exiting water temperature if this was the case.

If there is a blockage in one of the wells, then flow will stop completely, but at least you'll know.

[jongig]

If I were the manufacture's rep, I would have been on this job taking measurements and doing everything I could to either find a reason for a problem or providing firm data that there was no problem.

@Robo, If I owned the company I'd gladly hire you as the rep!

@Roscoe, I didn't think the Little Rascals had 88 episodes? PM me what you got from Santa as I'm curious. Not sure all here want to sideline this thread into a Lil rascals thread. Sorry to say this but my favorite was Jack.

@Twilli, I can't be the OP in the movie, I'll need therapy. I'mmmmmm just about there now, sorry for the twitch.

Happy new year all...

[jongig]

@Habeed.

I am a physics fan and I love math but the experience in this thread by those that have contributed is probably in the hundreds of yearsof HVAC and GT. No disrespect to physics but getting your head around the math and then actual application can sometimes seem to have a disconnect. I've done experiments for years and in this case of mine there really is a need for experience that is/was needed.

My wife is a great example because she has an engineering degree as well other science degrees and has been a scientist. I found it funny when she asked me in the beginning to explain to her how the house would be 70 when the ground is 50.

The piping is in parallel but not the reverse return which is suggested by everyone on this thread. I have 12-14GPM so I would think I don’t have an obstruction issue in the piping. If I were to test the individual ground loops I would probably use a crimp device on each well allowing the other well to run alone and take measurements. I am not crimping but I am attaching temp probes to each of the two well entry water pipes. The pipes in/out of the house are 1.25 inch pipe and then at the T they drop down to 1 inch which was appropriate for the flow and balance of the two wells.

I didn’t screw up the probes but remember that most of these are not 100% and so I could be off by a degree but probably not more than that.

I am cold in my house today and the system has never hit 67 and never will with the temperature outside so cold.

You are right is your assessment that my ground loops have one or more of the problems you mentioned.

Thanks,

John

[larobj63]

Habeeb:

Nice work, slick, you completely missed diagnosed the piping issue. It's already in parallel, not in series.

For the 300th time - the way it is piped is likely fine. I say likely because we can't see more than the picture reveals. Again, reverse return is ideal, but not going to help much here.

Here is some hydronics 101:

There are two circuits. They are in parallel. Therefor, if both loops are equal length and equal bends and equal fittings, etc, they would have equal head loss or equal "resistance" and would therefor have equal flow.

Now, again, here is what he has, and I'll use example numbers for demonstration.

One loop has say 300 foot of 1" pipe, and is fed by the straight section of a Tee. This loop, for arguments sake has a head loss of 40 feet.

The other loop has the same or similar 300 foot of 1" pipe, and is fed by the 90 side of the Tee, and runs through one 90 on the supply and one 90 on the return. This loop, for arguments sake has a head loss of 40.4 feet.

OK - (40.4 - 40) / 40 is .01, or 1%. That's the difference in head loss between the two circuits. That will be the difference between the flow in both loops; 1%.

Again, if you had a well bank with 10 wells, reverse return becomes important because the length of pipe between the different wells (circuits) could potential vary quite a bit. Remember, the wells should be 20' apart, so the closest well could have a lot less pipe (and therefor head loss) than the farthest. Reverse return eliminates this issue, at the cost of additional pipe.

Can we put this issue to bed? :o

[Roscoe]

Figures now we have Habeed's that can't spell Habib, what next Snoop Dog......:D

[RoBoTeq]

We obviously have some very good talent posting on this thread, so may I suggest putting the egos to rest and lowering the testosterone level just a tad and stop looking for fault in the diagnosis of others.

The fact is that more specific data is needed and the contractor needs to be come to the table.

Jongig, is there any reason for bad blood between you and the contractor or builder that is preventing them from being more involved in the corrections of your system? I am just wondering if there are any reasons for us on this forum to back off of suggesting you hire someone else to do a proper and accurate testing of your system rather then just telling you that's the way it's supposed to be arbitrarily. If you do hire someone else to do the testing and corrections, it would then be suggested that you revover whatever you need to spend to do so from the builder and/or HVAC contractor. This is not a way to go if there are any outstanding financial issues or any other issues with the builder and/or HVAC contractor that we are not aware of.

If the rep for the equipment is not able to or unwilling to help you with this system, it also may be in your best interest to see if another rep in your area will hire themselves to you as an arbitrator. I don't even know if that is feasible, but you need to have someone repping the equipment at least do some proper testing to show that it is not the equipment that is at fault.

[Habeed]

Jonig, here's actual data from a working geothermal system. Not speculation, this is real time data from actual sensor probes on a real system.

http://welserver.com/WEL0114/

Key piece of information : look at the first graph. See the red line, representing entering water temperature from the ground exchange loop?

Notice, the red line is only about 2-3 degrees farenheit lower than the ground temperature at 9 feet (green line). THAT is what your system should be giving you.

Also notice that the temperature STAYS close to ground temperature. It doesn't start out at 40 and drop to 28 when the system runs.

Your system is either faulty, or you aren't using the probe right.


Here's what you should have done : bought this sensor package : http://welserver.com/store.htm

You could still retrofit this system in, but one measurement would be difficult to get : what the ground temperature is at 150'. You could estimate it by burying a sensor to a shallow depth, and extrapolate, but it would obviously not be as accurate.

It costs about $525, and about $50 for a sensor you could have dropped into one of the wells, encapuslated in a pvc pipe with a copper conduction window at the end. With it, you could have complete monitoring of the entire system, and calculate both the efficiency, daily energy savings and money saved, and basically have spotted this problem before the contractor even left the site.

Geothermal is a complicated system that needs to be tuned correctly. It saves you no money if it isn't working right, either, and it's harder to spot problems than with a conventional HVAC furnace or AC.

I have no financial affiliation, or even know who 'welserver' is, I just know that data is crucial, and these guys are offering a machine to collect it for a reasonable price.

Update : I just skimmed the manual for the "WEL" system. It has very good information, and the 1 wire bus is an incredibly robust way to hook up sensors. But I digress...the main thing is, it looks very straightforward to work with. Also, there is a description of how to properly hook up a temperature probe. You are supposed to attach the probe to a copper section of pipe, directly after a bend if possible. Use heat sink compound (that silver putty stuff) between the pipe and the sensor. Hose clamp the sensor down to the metal surface. Wrap the sensor leads around the pipe. Wrap the whole thing with thermal insulation.

[jongig]

We obviously have some very good talent posting on this thread, so may I suggest putting the egos to rest and lowering the testosterone level just a tad and stop looking for fault in the diagnosis of others.

The fact is that more specific data is needed and the contractor needs to be come to the table.

Jongig, is there any reason for bad blood between you and the contractor or builder that is preventing them from being more involved in the corrections of your system? I am just wondering if there are any reasons for us on this forum to back off of suggesting you hire someone else to do a proper and accurate testing of your system rather then just telling you that's the way it's supposed to be arbitrarily. If you do hire someone else to do the testing and corrections, it would then be suggested that you revover whatever you need to spend to do so from the builder and/or HVAC contractor. This is not a way to go if there are any outstanding financial issues or any other issues with the builder and/or HVAC contractor that we are not aware of.

If the rep for the equipment is not able to or unwilling to help you with this system, it also may be in your best interest to see if another rep in your area will hire themselves to you as an arbitrator. I don't even know if that is feasible, but you need to have someone repping the equipment at least do some proper testing to show that it is not the equipment that is at fault.

Bad blood.

I wouldn't call it bad blood between myself and the installer but I would say that our relationship has been strained. Our relationship has never been the same after I noticed the way the GT piping was installed. He was not happy with me and those that did the work did not want to come back to my house and have anything to do with me. Why is this my fault and it's not so don't bother answering.

I am the GC of the house and hired the installer myself. I beleive I explained this some time ago in the thread by saying that I met with more than one installer of GT. I hired this individual based on a friends recomendation. The friend is also a contractor.

I am in business myself and own my own company as well as I've run a water company for quite a few years. I retired last year from the water company but I miss it and will probably go back into business with water some day.

As for cash. Again I mentioned along the way in the thread that I've paid the contractor in full. I have hired contractors to work on my house that I've had years of relationship with and when I called my excavator the other warm day he dug up my back yard 4 hours later. I know what motivates people and I know contractors work hardest for the person that pays them quickly and doesn't haggle over costs. When the installer gave me a price I said okay and he's been paid that price.

I don't believe my system works as well as it should but I have very little proof of that. The rep was not very helpful and has not returned my last email. I think ClimateMaster does not want to deal with the homeowner. I had thought I would have talked to someone at ClimateMaster but the Rep never called.

One of two things will happen.
1. I will find out that the installer did a good job and "it is what it is", and then I will decide to make it better or live with it.
2. The system is not right and the installer will either fix it or pay for it to be fixed.

This thread has provided myself as well as probably lots of other folks good information so they don't get into the same problem.

john

[jongig]

Jonig, here's actual data from a working geothermal system. Not speculation, this is real time data from actual sensor probes on a real system.

http://welserver.com/WEL0114/

Key piece of information : look at the first graph. See the red line, representing entering water temperature from the ground exchange loop?

Notice, the red line is only about 2-3 degrees farenheit lower than the ground temperature at 9 feet (green line). THAT is what your system should be giving you.

Also notice that the temperature STAYS close to ground temperature. It doesn't start out at 40 and drop to 28 when the system runs.

Your system is either faulty, or you aren't using the probe right.


Here's what you should have done : bought this sensor package : http://welserver.com/store.htm

You could still retrofit this system in, but one measurement would be difficult to get : what the ground temperature is at 150'. You could estimate it by burying a sensor to a shallow depth, and extrapolate, but it would obviously not be as accurate.

It costs about $525, and about $50 for a sensor you could have dropped into one of the wells, encapuslated in a pvc pipe with a copper conduction window at the end. With it, you could have complete monitoring of the entire system, and calculate both the efficiency, daily energy savings and money saved, and basically have spotted this problem before the contractor even left the site.

Geothermal is a complicated system that needs to be tuned correctly. It saves you no money if it isn't working right, either, and it's harder to spot problems than with a conventional HVAC furnace or AC.

I have no financial affiliation, or even know who 'welserver' is, I just know that data is crucial, and these guys are offering a machine to collect it for a reasonable price.


I have seen Dewayne's system and have read all of his posts on this forum and others and he is very knowledgable and helpful.

I saw the sensor logging system but I already have a data logger and I don't see a need to go this far on my system. As a water operator I was into data logging and it's a great idea when you need it but I don't plan on watching my temperatures as I am today. I started watching the temperatures because the system never shuts off and ice was all over the brass fittings and I started to wonder. I'm using Fluke professional equipment as well as a Taylor 7 day logger, logging the entry and exit water temperature.

I think those in the business like Dewayne need to go as far as he did so that he can really understand all that's going on underground and when he gets someone like me with a problem he can quickly figure out the problem, fix it and not have a negative thread started about him.

The most important probe to me is the sub panel electric meter and it tells me I'm spending more than I thought I would.

John

[cactusjack]

4 CE credits will be given by the Jongig school of hard knocks to anyone who has actually read this entire thread. Just send me twenty bucks and I'll send you your certificate.

John

John I never received the 8 hrs CE certificate that I sent you the 40 bucks and the Infrared Thermometer (gift)...I feel sure now I sent it to the wrong address. However, I did get my 8 hrs. in yesterday online just in the nick of time for my license re-newal...and I thank you for this.

Onward with the lab and back to Ammonia in 2009...:D

http://new.music.yahoo.com/videos/--2143234

[RoBoTeq]

Bad blood.

I wouldn't call it bad blood between myself and the installer but I would say that our relationship has been strained. Our relationship has never been the same after I noticed the way the GT piping was installed. He was not happy with me and those that did the work did not want to come back to my house and have anything to do with me. Why is this my fault and it's not so don't bother answering.

I am the GC of the house and hired the installer myself. I beleive I explained this some time ago in the thread by saying that I met with more than one installer of GT. I hired this individual based on a friends recomendation. The friend is also a contractor.

I am in business myself and own my own company as well as I've run a water company for quite a few years. I retired last year from the water company but I miss it and will probably go back into business with water some day.

As for cash. Again I mentioned along the way in the thread that I've paid the contractor in full. I have hired contractors to work on my house that I've had years of relationship with and when I called my excavator the other warm day he dug up my back yard 4 hours later. I know what motivates people and I know contractors work hardest for the person that pays them quickly and doesn't haggle over costs. When the installer gave me a price I said okay and he's been paid that price.

I don't believe my system works as well as it should but I have very little proof of that. The rep was not very helpful and has not returned my last email. I think ClimateMaster does not want to deal with the homeowner. I had thought I would have talked to someone at ClimateMaster but the Rep never called.

One of two things will happen.
1. I will find out that the installer did a good job and "it is what it is", and then I will decide to make it better or live with it.
2. The system is not right and the installer will either fix it or pay for it to be fixed.

This thread has provided myself as well as probably lots of other folks good information so they don't get into the same problem.

john
I am involved with a lot of HVAC issues at any one time so forgive my need to reiterate. Was just crossing my t's and dotting my i's on this one. Thanks for putting it all in one post.

ClimateMaster expects it's local reps to take care of issues. If you are not getting satisfaction from one local ClimateMaster rep, call another and see if they will get involved for a price.

[drsmith012]

jongig,

I am sorry you are having such trouble. But I also commend you for taking a big step is helping out the enviorment and what you thought to be your wallet as well.

I have a Waterfurnace Evnision three+ ton unit with a horizontal loop of 3/4' pipe in three, 300' loops and about 50 feet of 2" header pipe to get to the "swamp" that is my back yard. I live in central VA and currently have a EWT of 40F. I could not be happier with my system. Compared to my coworkers, family ect, my peak utility bill is 1/3 of theirs. The biggest revelation I had with the system is how it moderates my electrical energy consumption. Yes I do have a desuperheater and my waterheater is currently OFF. As electrical rates have risen the payback period has decreased. My orgional ROI (return on investment) calculation was 10-12 years but I based that on the price difference between the system I currently have and the cost of a new 16+ seer 2 stage air source heat pump. I did not do a ROI for the HP/oil (40 year old furnace) as the furnace was done for and HAD to be replaced.

Since the system was put in the electric rates in my area have increased over 27%, shaving a few more years off the ROI.

My system cost half as much as a Prius, will actually have an ROI unlike the prius, is not worse for the enviroment than what it replaces*, Will last far longer than a prius, and has far less cost of ownership than a prius, and will actually reduce my carbon footprint more than a prius. and when it reaches it end of its life longe after the prius has been sent to the scrap yard it will have more of its parts recycled than the prius.

* a recent study in Great Britton found out the a Prius is just as damaging to the envriroment as a Land Rover Discovery.



I hope and pray you get you system working to its full potential without having to involve the courts or any more of you money.

[RoBoTeq]

jongig,

I am sorry you are having such trouble. But I also commend you for taking a big step is helping out the enviorment and what you thought to be your wallet as well.

I have a Waterfurnace Evnision three+ ton unit with a horizontal loop of 3/4' pipe in three, 300' loops and about 50 feet of 2" header pipe to get to the "swamp" that is my back yard. I live in central VA and currently have a EWT of 40F. I could not be happier with my system. Compared to my coworkers, family ect, my peak utility bill is 1/3 of theirs. The biggest revelation I had with the system is how it moderates my electrical energy consumption. Yes I do have a desuperheater and my waterheater is currently OFF. As electrical rates have risen the payback period has decreased. My orgional ROI (return on investment) calculation was 10-12 years but I based that on the price difference between the system I currently have and the cost of a new 16+ seer 2 stage air source heat pump. I did not do a ROI for the HP/oil (40 year old furnace) as the furnace was done for and HAD to be replaced.

Since the system was put in the electric rates in my area have increased over 27%, shaving a few more years off the ROI.

My system cost half as much as a Prius, will actually have an ROI unlike the prius, is not worse for the enviroment than what it replaces*, Will last far longer than a prius, and has far less cost of ownership than a prius, and will actually reduce my carbon footprint more than a prius. and when it reaches it end of its life longe after the prius has been sent to the scrap yard it will have more of its parts recycled than the prius.

* a recent study in Great Britton found out the a Prius is just as damaging to the envriroment as a Land Rover Discovery.



I hope and pray you get you system working to its full potential without having to involve the courts or any more of you money.
I hope contractors here who do geothermal systems print out your post here to use as a selling tool;)

[rudylyon57]

A fine example of a sound design.

I think the two in-series loops in parallel was an excellent idea for your application.

And the zero back-up fuel usage - see, it can be done!

Can we inquire how you're looking for payback? We technically can't discuss prices in here, but, as a hypothetical, how many $500 casino chips would you have traded in for your installed system? :)

Hi larobj63,

That's a good question. Since I work in the rockdrilling/waterwell-boring business and my brother-in-law is a pipe contractor, I had lot's of help with labor! I had an HVAC professional do the liquid & suction line hookups, charge and startup. So the number of casino chips would be irrelevant for comparison on the open market.

In any event,

Old system annually (3T 13 SEER dual fuel)
- 17,000 kwh electric @ $0.10/kwh = $1700
- 150g propane @ $2.50/g = $375
- Total = $2075/yr

Geothermal system annually (3-1/2T Geocomfort w/desuperheater)
- 14,500 kwh electric @ 0.10/kwh = $1450/yr

Savings = $625/year (11 year payback at present fuel prices)
Wife happy (warm air) = priceless!

[RoBoTeq]

Hi larobj63,

That's a good question. Since I work in the rockdrilling/waterwell-boring business and my brother-in-law is a pipe contractor, I had lot's of help with labor! I had an HVAC professional do the liquid & suction line hookups, charge and startup. So the number of casino chips would be irrelevant for comparison on the open market.

In any event,

Old system annually (3T 13 SEER dual fuel)
- 17,000 kwh electric @ $0.10/kwh = $1700
- 150g propane @ $2.50/g = $375
- Total = $2075/yr

Geothermal system annually (3-1/2T Geocomfort w/desuperheater)
- 14,500 kwh electric @ 0.10/kwh = $1450/yr

Savings = $625/year (11 year payback at present fuel prices)
Wife happy (warm air) = priceless!
And since geothermal systems can last longer then air to air systems with the same maintenance, once the system has recovered in savings it is just continued savings.

[larobj63]

And since geothermal systems can last longer then air to air systems with the same maintenance, once the system has recovered in savings it is just continued savings.

And his old system was dual fuel!! (Heat pump w backup propane).

If he was burnig all gas before, the "payback" would be far quicker.

Yes, this is how geo should be performing.

Remember, however, my initial "attacks" on pay-back were related to natural gas cost, not propane, because NG is almost always the cheapest fuel in most areas, by a long shot.

Also - he got a break on the biggest ticket item - the wells. That's a HUGE factor on payback period. Huge.

Anyway, this gentleman's geo sounds like it's purring like a cat, and saving energy like it should.

Cool.

[jongig]

I had a HVAC and GT professional have a look at my GT system and my house and here is the information he provided me.

GT;
The Climatemaster is running good and heating the air through it by about a 27 degrees rise. The entry water temperature readings I’ve provided are about 2 degrees high which suggests that I’ve had entry water as low as 26 degrees. The water circulation in the loop is about 12GPM. The unit was sized right for the house and the loop size was correct.

House;
I have some insulation issues that needed to be addressed. I have two attic stair units and they need to be insulated. I have the basement insulated with Thermax board but the sill plate is not insulated and needs to be. I had known this would make some difference in the basement but had not considered that this would have an effect on the main floor. The basement does not get heated much of the time and with the heat off the basement only goes down to about 57. I also had a few small spots in the attic that could have been insulated a bit better.

HVAC:
The problem in the kids room is due in part to the way the unit delivers air. The plenum that runs to the kids room is a very long run that has 9 registers that take off from it. The kids room is one of the last. It would be better to have that part of the plenum that is 14 inches continue at that size all the way to that area and have shorter lengths of the flex duct to the three registers in that area. Other ideas were to actually make that plenum and that area its own zone. It also would help to zone off the master bedroom just so more air makes it to the kids room and that area. You really can barely feel air come from the registers now.

I learned a lot and it was fun to have someone take me around and explain how everything works and why it works. I learned what it can do and what it can’t do. I can only remove from the ground loop what the system was designed for and I may be exceeding that by loosing heat in the areas mentioned above.

As of this afternoon I have insulated the two attic openings. I insulated the opening to more than r-20. I used foam seal, Dow board, caulk and expanding foam. It looks nice and is more insulated than I’ve ever seen one of these openings insulated. I will have the basement sill plate started tomorrow and I will try to have it completed tomorrow.

My thanks go out to the person who spent a Saturday to help a friend he never met.

Keep tuned in because on Monday I will have 60 degree EWT and my electric bill will be shooting downward.

John

[junkhound]

Thanks for the update.
Applause also to the member who helped you out Saturday.


to the kids room is a very long run that has 9 registers

WOW, that is quite a run, esp. the 9 registers!

[gary wilson]

John,

I'm not an old sea dog when it comes to geo. How will the loop temp go from 26 to 60? Did I misunderstand?

Have you considered a blower door test for your home?
Insulation does not alwys equate to "tightness"

[Airmechanical]

John,

I'm not an old sea dog when it comes to geo. How will the loop temp go from 26 to 60? Did I misunderstand?


yes, can we get some clarification on that!

i keep waiting to read where they found out why the EWT is soooooo low, and what was done to fix the problem!



.

[jongig]

John,

I'm not an old sea dog when it comes to geo. How will the loop temp go from 26 to 60? Did I misunderstand?

Have you considered a blower door test for your home?
Insulation does not alwys equate to "tightness"

I'm sorry, the 60 was kind of a joke all be it not a good one I guess. The house is insulated well and was inspected after the insulation was finished. The problem in the attic was some wiring was done after the insulation was in place and the insulation not put back.

The point to this is that I'm not using a tank of gas which is easily measured but instead using a area in the ground for heat extraction. The theory is that I'm using too much and have depleted this. That's the theory and I will quickly fix what I can and report back the results. If this works we will all have another avenue to explore when someone has a problem like mine.

john

[Airmechanical]

I'm sorry, the 60 was kind of a joke all be it not a good one I guess.

oh, that was a joke, don't do that:p



.

[RoBoTeq]

Well... (pun intended, as long as we are joking around:p), I don't see how your electric usage is going to ever decrease dramatically with your ground loop getting so cold so fast.

[cactusjack]

I had a HVAC and GT professional have a look at my GT system and my house and here is the information he provided me.

GT;
The Climatemaster is running good and heating the air through it by about a 27 degrees rise. The entry water temperature readings I’ve provided are about 2 degrees high which suggests that I’ve had entry water as low as 26 degrees. The water circulation in the loop is about 12GPM. The unit was sized right for the house and the loop size was correct.

House;
I have some insulation issues that needed to be addressed. I have two attic stair units and they need to be insulated. I have the basement insulated with Thermax board but the sill plate is not insulated and needs to be. I had known this would make some difference in the basement but had not considered that this would have an effect on the main floor. The basement does not get heated much of the time and with the heat off the basement only goes down to about 57. I also had a few small spots in the attic that could have been insulated a bit better.

HVAC:
The problem in the kids room is due in part to the way the unit delivers air. The plenum that runs to the kids room is a very long run that has 9 registers that take off from it. The kids room is one of the last. It would be better to have that part of the plenum that is 14 inches continue at that size all the way to that area and have shorter lengths of the flex duct to the three registers in that area. Other ideas were to actually make that plenum and that area its own zone. It also would help to zone off the master bedroom just so more air makes it to the kids room and that area. You really can barely feel air come from the registers now.

I learned a lot and it was fun to have someone take me around and explain how everything works and why it works. I learned what it can do and what it can’t do. I can only remove from the ground loop what the system was designed for and I may be exceeding that by loosing heat in the areas mentioned above.

As of this afternoon I have insulated the two attic openings. I insulated the opening to more than r-20. I used foam seal, Dow board, caulk and expanding foam. It looks nice and is more insulated than I’ve ever seen one of these openings insulated. I will have the basement sill plate started tomorrow and I will try to have it completed tomorrow.

My thanks go out to the person who spent a Saturday to help a friend he never met. Paulie..Rep of Soprano Heating & Cooling Co.Keep tuned in because on Monday I will have 60 degree EWT and my electric bill will be shooting downward.

John

Your last post concerning gpm indicated 8 gpm,...now you have around 12 gpm without another visit by the installer (Twilli),..I would love to know how this was arrived at ? :confused:

[RoBoTeq]

Your last post concerning gpm indicated 8 gpm,...now you have around 12 gpm without another visit by the installer (Twilli),..I would love to know how this was arrived at ? :confused:
Twilli was the installer?

[hotwaterworld]

is low for a properly designed system and loop?? I feel like I am down at the fish market, something sounds fishy.

[cactusjack]

Twilli was the installer?

I did read that...didn't I ?.....or did I dream that ?

All I know for sure is that I need to start wearing a OSHA and EPA approved "Safety Belt" while reading this thread to keep from cracking a rib or wrenching my back while ...ROTFLMAO

[jongig]

Your last post concerning gpm indicated 8 gpm,...now you have around 12 gpm without another visit by the installer (Twilli),..I would love to know how this was arrived at ? :confused:

Sorry but that's what the technician told me that works for the installer about 4 weeks ago. It was checked yesterday and verified to be about 12 GPM. The difference at the two PT ports was 5 PSI and water temperature was 29 EWT.

John

[jongig]

I did read that...didn't I ?.....or did I dream that ?

All I know for sure is that I need to start wearing a OSHA and EPA approved "Safety Belt" while reading this thread to keep from cracking a rib or wrenching my back while ...ROTFLMAO


Have you hugged your OSHA girl today, I have.

[Roscoe]

MAN.............ahhhhhhs tard ahhhs sooo tard,......wheewh...... this thread is 3 and a 1/2 miles long an we jes be back at the begin'in ............:confused:..............:eek:......... ..................:D.:D

[drsmith012]

I hope contractors here who do geothermal systems print out your post here to use as a selling tool;)

I would hope so. I have mentioned this to a prius owner or two. The look on their faces was most.........fullfilling :D.

jongig,

as for thermal depletion or saturation: my experience with my system has been that in the summer the loop temp may hit 80F but at night when the unit cycles off the temp can drop as much as 10 degrees. So in the morning I start back at 70. This past summer I only hit second stage when I had to open the windows to air out the house from using block sealer in the basement.

In the winter when I run continous low stage and cycle second, I seem to hover around 35. If the units cycles off during the day my temp can rise back up to the low 40s rather quickly. I have yet to run continous second this season and never rally managed a 24 hour continous run last year either.

Now that the ground has settled around my loops and my compressor has worn in My system is unbelieveable. Have you hugged your GSHP today?:D Hopefully you'll have these feelings soon.

[astar]

To eliminate possible air in the circulated water you could install an air purger in the water line, ideally located as high as possible, but in your case the pictures show a possible spot in the re-enforced vinyl hose. Be sure to also install a pressure gauge if you don't already have one. If air is removed as it passes the air purger, you will need to add water to the system keeping it slightly pressurized at around 10 to 20 PSI. Ideally you would add water through a pressure regulator for safety. Using a temporary fill system may introduce more air each time so be careful. Having the wells plumbed in series would have been a better way so if you open the ground up, correct that and minimize the 90 fittings.

[geodean]

Having the wells plumbed in series would have been a better way so if you open the ground up, correct that and minimize the 90 fittings.

Sorry but I have to disagree. Having only flow path for a geothermal loop is not the right way to go.

[crash11]

Sorry but I have to disagree. Having only flow path for a geothermal loop is not the right way to go.
More often than not you are right, but not always. It has everything to do with spreading the pipe over enough area and achieving proper turbulence for adequate heat transfer.

[geodean]

The pressure drop on two loops in parallel is 46 ft of head
The pressure drop on two loops in series is 144 ft of head

The Reynolds number on the parallel loops is 5630, 2500 is all that is needed.

Figure out what size pump would be needed to push 12 gpm at 144 ft of head and then tell me how a series loop would be better.



It has everything to do with spreading the pipe over enough area and achieving proper turbulence for adequate heat transfer.

It has more to do with creating a loop that has a low enough pressure drop so that pumping costs low.

[gary wilson]

More often than not you are right, but not always. It has everything to do with spreading the pipe over enough area and achieving proper turbulence for adequate heat transfer.

Huh,,, golly, I'm trusting my computer too much (Wrightsoft). The 3 ton I just did- I did two bores, in series. In parellel the burt reynolds number was too low according to the program. Where do I find a long hand method to do the reynolds?

I am having a difficult time with how much GPM this system is moving...1" bores? Single pump? Is there anyone else or is it just me? I'm the geonewbie, so let me know.

[beenthere]

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/reynolds.html

This might help you.

[gary wilson]

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/reynolds.html

This might help you.

Yes, I get the concept, but without a simple calculator (geothermal loop program), I'm lost. Forget long hand.... If Wrightsoft is not accurate I will be an unhappy camper.

[geodean]

Huh,,, golly, I'm trusting my computer too much (Wrightsoft). The 3 ton I just did- I did two bores, in series. In parellel the burt reynolds number was too low according to the program. Where do I find a long hand method to do the reynolds?

I am having a difficult time with how much GPM this system is moving...1" bores? Single pump? Is there anyone else or is it just me? I'm the geonewbie, so let me know.


What GPM did you use? The system needs 12 gpm for optimum performance.

Wiki has the formula if you really want to do it long hand.

[geodean]

.. If Wrightsoft is not accurate I will be an unhappy camper.

What does Wright Soft give you for 6 gpm in a 1" HDPE pipe?

[wagnerhvac]

To eliminate possible air in the circulated water you could install an air purger in the water line, ideally located as high as possible, but in your case the pictures show a possible spot in the re-enforced vinyl hose. Be sure to also install a pressure gauge if you don't already have one. If air is removed as it passes the air purger, you will need to add water to the system keeping it slightly pressurized at around 10 to 20 PSI. Ideally you would add water through a pressure regulator for safety. Using a temporary fill system may introduce more air each time so be careful. Having the wells plumbed in series would have been a better way so if you open the ground up, correct that and minimize the 90 fittings.

be careful with this idea if your pressure drops and your methanol starts to vaporize and then will go out your air vent then you will eventually start freezing

( providing one is using methanol)

[cactusjack]

The pressure drop on two loops in parallel is 46 ft of head I get 34ft with Wrightsoft
The pressure drop on two loops in series is 144 ft of head

The Reynolds number on the parallel loops is 5630, 2500 is all that is needed.

Figure out what size pump would be needed to push 12 gpm at 144 ft of head and then tell me how a series loop would be better.




It has more to do with creating a loop that has a low enough pressure drop so that pumping costs low. agree

I also downloaded the WF program like you used in your earlier post and the Climate Master as I am also concerned why so many different head's.

[geodean]

The heat pump has 12 ft of head. I should have subtracted that....sorry

[cactusjack]

be careful with this idea if your pressure drops and your methanol starts to vaporize and then will go out your air vent then you will eventually start freezing

( providing one is using methanol)

Also a definite cross-connection and a code violation if not done properely..by a lic. plumber.

[crash11]

The pressure drop on two loops in parallel is 46 ft of head
The pressure drop on two loops in series is 144 ft of head

The Reynolds number on the parallel loops is 5630, 2500 is all that is needed.

Figure out what size pump would be needed to push 12 gpm at 144 ft of head and then tell me how a series loop would be better.




It has more to do with creating a loop that has a low enough pressure drop so that pumping costs low.
How so? I could run a loop with 4" pipe that goes out of the house, makes 180 degree turn, and comes back in. That would have really low pressure drop. Guess that's optimal then.

[geodean]

How so? I could run a loop with 4" pipe that goes out of the house, makes 180 degree turn, and comes back in. That would have really low pressure drop. Guess that's optimal then.

Go ahead and do that on your next job and let us know how well it works:D:D

[jdh]

Would be interesting to know the energy to turn a pump for turbulent flow.
Hope the homeowner has deep pockets.

I would say as contractors, we are always in the mind set as having to design systems that meet all the needs from, initial costs, to system running costs, to maintenance costs. And find a happy medium.....................
................ And still come in the Cheapest :):D

[gary wilson]

What does Wright Soft give you for 6 gpm in a 1" HDPE pipe?

what are two bore depths again? I need to simulate the loop field to answer that.

I'm kinda surprised no one is wondering about the type of soil it is.

I'm also surprised no one else wondered about the duct system. One of those shots looked a little iffy; where the return connected to the unit. Is this puppy loaded up with the turning vanes?

[jongig]

Met with the installer and he says I need to give the system one year before thinking something is wrong with the wells.

His guys will be here Monday to fix the problem with the kids room. He also has to figure out why the electric strip heat will not turn on.

I've done some more insulating wherever I can and I believe it helped but just not the cure all.

Electric bill for December was $300.06 and of that about $190 for the GTHP.

I have thermal probes on the entry pipes from the two wells and the difference between the two wells is 1 to 1.5 degrees. My entry water temperature still hoovers about 32.

All I have.

john

[HVACJOEK]

In a conventional system I would size your home at 6 tons (2400 sq ft @ 400 cfm per ton), but this is only a very general rule.:cool:

If you send me your E-Mail address I have some manuals on the Tranquility 27 System.:cool:



I purchased a new home and had a heating contractor install a forced air, closed loop, 4-ton geothermal system. The system is a Tranquility 27 which is 2 stages and has a third stage that is electric resistance. I've received little information about its workings and we are not really happy with the heat. Besides I hoped my electric bill would not be so high and it's over $200 and for a 2,400 SQ ft house it seems like alot.

I programmed the thermostat for 65 degree days and 70 evenings and 67 degree nights.

The unit can not heat the house on a 30s day from 65 to 70 by the time we go to bed 9-10PM. I was told that I shouldn't set the temperature so low durring the day or I could have the third stage come on sooner. My kids room has never seen 70. My wife thinks we have to suplement our heat by using the LP fireplace.

I've placed temperature probes everywhere.

Temperature of the loop is 32 in and 28 out when it runs for awhile.

Temperature of the air from the unit is either 78-80 or 88-90, first and second stage.

My kids room gets as high as 68 but never 70. I've shut many grates off and so now I hear whistling.

The unit runs nearly all the time.

The house is dry and about 35% humidity.

We're not even cold outside yet and I wonder if we'll be warm and scared of the electric bill.

Thanks very much for taking the time to read this.

[Doug Lockhart]

jongig,
FWIW, I have installed about 2000 tons of GHP on Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada over the last 20 years; my observations are:

-the loop pumps are UP26-99...could have used UP26-116 for better flow profile
-get rid of the glycol, if it's ethylene it is toxic, if it is propylene it will gum the entire system after 3-4 years if run less than 30%! Install either 20% methanol or ethanol.
-ClimateMaster is the old guard from WFI and they sized the H/P on cooling capacity....great if you use 50 degF loop in July Texas! That same unit has about 2/3 the capacity (in tons for cooling) with a cold loop. You're also in a heating dominated load so take 'er from there....ie you don't 'rest' the loop.
-If the driller drilled 'water well' holes they are now 6" insulated holes instead of 3.75" holes. Did they use 'clips' to push the pipe to the perimeter of the hole? Did they use enhanced grout? Do you have the drill log? We use 200'/ton here to be safe. Did he tremie the hole from the bottom up...if not you've got air pockets...insulation pockets. What was the volume of bentonite....was it sufficient to 'fill' the annulus?
-the use of only 2 loops of 1" is disturbing....if you do the math on SDR pipe you will find a 500' loop of 3/4", 1", 1 1/4" or 2" will pass the SAME amount of heat.....remember it's SDR standard diameter ratio meaning that its wall thickness increases (resistance to heat flow) at the same ratio as the diameter (enhancement) to heat flow. We use 1" in deep loops of multiple circuits but NOT needed in resi jobs.
-how far are the loops apart? Should be minimum 20'...if not they are thermally interfering with each other. Also put then in a line, not a matrix as the center loops are useless after about a day of cold weather with no rest.
-how well was the loop flushed? Was a proper flush cart used and what is the chance you've got a bubble of air in it? A 2 HP 3 stage pump is what we use for over an hour of 'back and forth' to get all the air out.
-ductwork IMHO should be sized with S/A at max 1000 fpm and R/A at 700 fpm. Branch runs with min 6" dia and 90 cfm. The R/A registers, accounting for a 20% loss in free area from crossbars on the grills, should NEVER be more than 500 fpm.
-use always min of 4" X 10" boots


I've got a 2900 sq.ft. house on an ocean loop in Canada here using less than $300/yr of power to heat and cool his house. Done properly they're great and to troubleshoot you don't even need to put a good set of digital gauges on them;)

[RoBoTeq]

Met with the installer and he says I need to give the system one year before thinking something is wrong with the wells.


john
Why? The fact that ground temperature does not change is the reason that geothermal heat transfer works. Is the installers ClimateMaster rep supporting this way of thinking?

[beenthere]

Why? The fact that ground temperature does not change is the reason that geothermal heat transfer works. Is the installers ClimateMaster rep supporting this way of thinking?

Because then, the 1 year labor warranty will have expired.
And they can charge him to fix it. :(

[Airmechanical]

Met with the installer and he says I need to give the system one year before thinking something is wrong with the wells.
it's over, you have lost the battle with this installer, it's time to move on to another company

i have thermal probes on the entry pipes from the two wells and the difference between the two wells is 1 to 1.5 degrees. My entry water temperature still hoovers about 32.
still too low, any additions to your post's about the original installer seem to be totaly redundant and useless



.

[RoBoTeq]

Airmechanical, I have to agree. The contractor is either making excuses to avoid rectifying an improper install or just does not really understand geothermal systems and Earth thermal values.

I still suspect there are mulitple issues with the loops and wells. It keeps being mentioned about the grouting either not being sufficient, not having been applied from the bottom of the well up etc., and I think that could very well be one of the issues. The other issue is the loops not being laid out as a reverse return which may be causing one loop to not be functioning properly.

Since the ClimateMaster rep for that contractor is not willing to do anything other then make excuses for the contractor, another contractor who deals with another ClimateMaster rep should be hired.

[cactusjack]

can anyone tell me what the temperature of the Moon is tonite from
Pa.?

[Airmechanical]

can anyone tell me what the temperature of the Moon is tonite from Pa.?


the dark side is about -459 degrees below zero

the light side (the only side we see from earth) is warmer



.

[beenthere]

can anyone tell me what the temperature of the Moon is tonite from
Pa.?
Probably the same temp it is from Alabama. :)

[crash11]

Go ahead and do that on your next job and let us know how well it works:D:D

Do you realize you're insulting yourself instead of me? I was speaking sarcastically.

[RoBoTeq]

Do you realize you're insulting yourself instead of me? I was speaking sarcastically.
Sarcasm is not always apparant in the written word. You should have used a :rolleyes: or written out sarcasm in italics to emphasize your grammatical intent:cool:

Just trying to help:rolleyes::D

[Roscoe]

Sarcasm is not always apparant in the written word. You should have used a :rolleyes: or written out sarcasm in italics to emphasize your grammatical intent:cool:

Just trying to help:rolleyes::D


No your not.............hehehe
Your by being sarcastic.......................:p

John you need to hire someone who knows WTF they are doing.........or do you just like being a pseudo GEO guy.......:rolleyes:.......:D

[luv2cruiserccl]

I have a water furnace geothermal in my own home and installed hundred's and not had those problem. I highly suggest that you have an electrician come out and install a separate meter just for the geothermal. Most of the time they will run one circuit from your main breaker panel thru the meter and to a sub panel. Then those wire's go to your geothermal and electric heat. You can buy the meter and the meter sockets and most supply houses. This way you know exactly what the unit is costing you, not a estimate with all the other electric appliance's in your home. You would be surprised what dryers, water heaters etc take in electric power. Also a infrared house inspection and a blower door test would be a VERY wise decision. You very well could have poor insulation or some sort of building envelope problem. Just Google infrared inspections in your area and try to get someone with Level II Infrared Thermography & A Certification in Infrared Building Science. I am both and you will achieve a greater result with someone with these qualification’s. Any other questions please just ask. Hope you get your problem fixed.

[jongig]

@luv2cruiserccl, I have a separate electric meter on the GTHP which reports every 6 hours directly to a spreadsheet on my PC. Last 24 hours I used about 65KWH.

@Roscoe, I would like to find someone local who could help but I've not found anyone. I had someone look at the unit that drove a couple hours but that person probably won't want to drive here to work on the unit.

The installer’s men were at the house yesterday and changed the plumbing to the kids room. It looks better and works a bit better. The kids room was 64 this morning which puts him about 4 degrees under the 68 degree setting at the thermostat. I spoke to him again today and he is going to put dampers in some of the takeoffs, which have more air in an attempt to balance out the airflow in the house.

This has been a lousy ordeal and I will write up a very nice paper at the conclusion of this install and I doubt ClimateMaster will appreciate what I have to say about their unit, the lack of support and what I feel about the GT process.

I’ve done a lot in the past couple weeks to further insulate the house. I’ve even used the smoke units to see if I could find leaks in the house. I own a good IR thermometer and have looked hard for cold spots.

For those of you who know what you’re doing that’s great but in my opinion you also need to get involved and ask these companies selling these GTHP units to require more education from installers and even require a better contract between the installer and the HO. Mine tells me I’m getting a 4 ton unit and unless 4 tons relates to the weight I don’t understand what the 4 tons represents.

john

[Airmechanical]

I have a water furnace geothermal in my own home and installed hundred's and not had those problem. I highly suggest that you have an electrician come out and install a separate meter just for the geothermal. Most of the time they will run one circuit from your main breaker panel thru the meter and to a sub panel. Then those wire's go to your geothermal and electric heat. You can buy the meter and the meter sockets and most supply houses. This way you know exactly what the unit is costing you, not a estimate with all the other electric appliance's in your home. You would be surprised what dryers, water heaters etc take in electric power. Also a infrared house inspection and a blower door test would be a VERY wise decision. You very well could have poor insulation or some sort of building envelope problem. Just Google infrared inspections in your area and try to get someone with Level II Infrared Thermography & A Certification in Infrared Building Science. I am both and you will achieve a greater result with someone with these qualification’s. Any other questions please just ask. Hope you get your problem fixed.



yes, that will surely help warm-up his water inlet temp:rolleyes::p

after he finds out that his geo is using the same or more energy than an air cooled heat pump, what next?



.

[wagnerhvac]

So here is some follow up from my visit.

First thing I started with is heat of extraction.

30 entering water
25.6 exiting water

4.2 psi drop ( give or take a hair the big guy guage from the training kit) 11.25 GPM if my math figures

9 GPM with 2.7 PSI drop

12 GPM with 4.6 PSI drop

4.4 delta t x 11.25 x 490 = 24255 for HE

Voltage was 237 amps 15 3555 watts book shows 3055 Not much of a deal here

Temperature rise was 27 degrees RA temp was 65 SA was 92

Next part of the project was to do a heat loss.

This got a little tricky The basement has a 2" rigid insulation with said R10 value but the floor and the band board was not insulated. The daylight basement door and window was nt insulated around the framing.
The basement has its own zone and is set for 60 degrees and it was drafty.

The first floor is all hardwood floor and ceramic and Vynal ( no carpet )

I calculated the loss both ways as far as the duct loss since it was about half down there but the loss with duct loss came to 52,824 and the gain was 29,759

Geo designer has a call for 570 foot bore hole ( there is 600) with a $1007 op cost
Scranton is the worst conditions in PA for heating. Geo designers heating estimate is 612, cooling 72 water heating 261

So everything checks out good with sizing and ground loop.
The basement stat differential was set for 1 1 4 ( ? on that setup Climatemaster stat)
I set his first floor 1 1 and changed it so the second stage will run till satisfied. ( not a climatemaster stat some fancy one that ties int his computer)


Now here is what I found as some issues.

The basement, as I stated the band board was not insulated. Some of the returns are not sealed as good as they can be. ( wire holes, one spot the tape is coming off, etc.)

There is a pull down stairs at one end of the house about 3-4 feet from the thermostat location. This stairs has no insulation. There is a second stairs at the far side of the house with the same no insulation.
The thermostat is in a room with a vaulted ceiling, Side note I just thought of, the stat is in direct line of sight of the gas fireplace. Comparing this to my house I had a piece of luan for my attic access is my third floor and my room was cold.

The next issue in the attic was one of the trayed ceilings was not insulated as well as it should have been. There was also some other areas that needed to be addressed.



This is the final issue. The sons bedroom is hurting for air. That particular zone reduces down to a 10 inch duct with, I believe 6 runs on it, two of which are 8" runs. The only way I can get air to the sons room is if the three other ducts dampers are shut.


Install three 7" butterfly dampers to the runs in the family room and close them down some, The dinnete had a damper and I closed it down a little.

The duct to the sons side of the house.

Remove the 10" duct. Extend the 14" duct make the 90 turn and extend to the front of the house wall.
This is to get a bigger duct for air flow, and get rid of the hard 90 turns of the flex duct.( some of the flex is border being pinched off.

[geodean]

So if I follow this, the unit is producing 24,255 btus from heat of extraction, 11,162 from heat of compression 24,255+ 11,162 = 35,050 BTU's/h going into the house.

The heat loss is 52,824. 52,824-35,050= 17,773 This means that his system is short 17,773 btu's/h from meeting the load on this house. No wonder he is having problems.

[wagnerhvac]

So if I follow this, the unit is producing 24,255 btus from heat of extraction, 11,162 from heat of compression 24,255+ 11,162 = 35,050 BTU's/h going into the house.

The heat loss is 52,824. 52,824-35,050= 17,773 This means that his system is short 17,773 btu's/h from meeting the load on this house. No wonder he is having problems.

HC is 37.2 with 15 kw back up needing 3kw for the system.

In the 52,000 number also includes 9000 BTU for duct loss which is questionable since the duct is in the 60 degree basement zone being heated

so the unit is sized fine for the house under the code. Just some insulation, infiltration, and some duct sizing issues that slipped through the inspector.

so in conclusion some joint faults

[geodean]

so the unit is sized fine for the house under the code.

as long as he runs his back heat?

[gary wilson]

Hi John, a ton is 12,000 btus. It has something to do with a ton of ice, yes, a big block of frozen water, and it takes 12,000 BTus to melt it, from what I recall when I heard the story years ago it takes one hour.

When you take your temp drop and your pressure drop (GPM), and multiply by 490, what are you getting for BTUs??

BTW, a 4 ton heat pump will produce much less than 48,000 btus of heat. Perhaps you know that.

[gary wilson]

So if I follow this, the unit is producing 24,255 btus from heat of extraction, 11,162 from heat of compression 24,255+ 11,162 = 35,050 BTU's/h going into the house.

The heat loss is 52,824. 52,824-35,050= 17,773 This means that his system is short 17,773 btu's/h from meeting the load on this house. No wonder he is having problems.

geodan, how do you figure the heat of compression?

[geodean]

1 watt = 3.41 BTU 3555 * 3.41= 12,122 BTUs

I must have fat fingered the calculator last night to come up with 11,162

[jongig]

The installer’s men were here today and I asked them to look to see if the settings on the unit were maybe set wrong because my recent suspicion is that the CFM settings were low. I counted the flashes on the board from the LED and each flash was 100 CFM and it was 12 or 13 flashes. Not sure if you count the first one because it’s not really in sync with the other flashes. They confirmed that yes the settings were wrong. Two of the dipswitches were set to lower the CFM from the standard 1,200/1,430 CFM by 15% or 1,020/1,215 CFM. They just reversed the setting so now I’m at 1,380/1,644. They tell me that’s how it should have been set.

The kids room has more air flow now and that makes me quite happy. We’ll see in a day or so the difference.

It also means some of my calculations of how much heat was being produced by the unit have been wrong.

See the picture from the board attached.

John

[jongig]

HC is 37.2 with 15 kw back up needing 3kw for the system.

In the 52,000 number also includes 9000 BTU for duct loss which is questionable since the duct is in the 60 degree basement zone being heated

so the unit is sized fine for the house under the code. Just some insulation, infiltration, and some duct sizing issues that slipped through the inspector.

so in conclusion some joint faults

I think insulating the house was a great idea and I really appreciated the help but from my point of view I'm now doing all I can and spending my money to make the house fit the GTHP system. I have blue prints and the only place I was wrong and didn't insulate was the sill-band. It doesn't say in my blue prints that I have to add insulation to the attic stair units. I would argue in the basement that insulating the walls to R-13 was worth more than the missing sill-band insulation. My walls are thermax which is not dow-board, it is a fiberglass insulation. My tray ceilings are insulated in the vertical portion of the tray on the inside and they meet code and were insulated the way the blue prints show.

John

[Airmechanical]

So here is some follow up from my visit.

First thing I started with is heat of extraction.

30 entering water
25.6 exiting water


so after all your testing can you explain why the incoming water temp is at least 20 degrees colder than the ground temp!



.

[jongig]

@wagnerhvac, I have 3/4 wood flooring throughout the house with ceramic in the three bathrooms and the kitchen.

I'm not sure this is a problem but I'd better ask. The ClimateMaster thermostat wiring is connected to a Honeywell unit that hangs on the GTHP unit and is used to add zones, from what I'm told. The Honeywell has a button on the bottom that says Emergency Heat. The ClimateMaster thermostat has a setting on it to enable Emergency Heat. The ClimateMaster thermostat will not put the ClimateMaster GTHP into Emergency Heat. This according to the installer's men is because the Honeywell does not pass the setting to the GTHP. I told them I don't mind if I have to go downstairs and press the button for Emergency Heat.

I started thinking, I know bad idea, why doesn't this stuff work right together? Should a ClimateMaster zone thing been used. Will I have other issues in the future because a different brand item was used instead of the ClimateMaster brand?

What do the rest of you do and is there a way to make the ClimateMaster thermostat work with the Honeywell? Should I even care?

John

[wagnerhvac]

so after all your testing can you explain why the incoming water temp is at least 20 degrees colder than the ground temp!



.

Sure can
When the air infiltration is like having two windows wide open the unit is going to run non stop and keep sucking heat from the ground faster than the ground can give it back.

[wagnerhvac]

@wagnerhvac, I have 3/4 wood flooring throughout the house with ceramic in the three bathrooms and the kitchen.

I'm not sure this is a problem but I'd better ask.

This comment was made cause carpet has some insulation value. So there is more heatloss through the floor with wood and tile . Not a code thing

[jongig]

Sure can
When the air infiltration is like having two windows wide open the unit is going to run non stop and keep sucking heat from the ground faster than the ground can give it back.

My house is like having two windows open? That's not very nice. I did all that you told me to and hundreds of dollars later I see little improvement. I was very hopeful that the insulation would really help but again I just see that I'm now trying to make the house fit the GTHP.

I'm sure Freddy and my installer will be happy to know that you blamed my house but in the end I'm the one who has to take the unit apart to figure out what the hell is going on. It's all just for saving face, for who, ClimateMaster, Freddy, Geothermal?

Good thing this isn't really important, National Security or Heart Surgery. Just getting the 8 year old kids room warm and just no big deal that we should double check our work.

Gotta give my installer some credit because if he went with the 570 feet ground loop I'd be in even worse shape.

GO HEAT STRIPS!!

Man I could go on and on but where does it get me.

[RoBoTeq]

I don't believe anyone feels that there is anything wrong with the ClimateMaster equipment. It appears to be all the way it was put together. The ground loops being the proper length is of little help if the fluid is not circulationg properly through both loops and/or not absorbing the proper amount of heat due to an improper grouting of the wells.

[jrbenny]

My house is like having two windows open? That's not very nice. I did all that you told me to and hundreds of dollars later I see little improvement. I was very hopeful that the insulation would really help but again I just see that I'm now trying to make the house fit the GTHP.

I'm sure Freddy and my installer will be happy to know that you blamed my house but in the end I'm the one who has to take the unit apart to figure out what the hell is going on. It's all just for saving face, for who, ClimateMaster, Freddy, Geothermal?

Good thing this isn't really important, National Security or Heart Surgery. Just getting the 8 year old kids room warm and just no big deal that we should double check our work.

Gotta give my installer some credit because if he went with the 570 feet ground loop I'd be in even worse shape.

GO HEAT STRIPS!!

Man I could go on and on but where does it get me.
Guess he thinks you have high infiltration values.

Why get your undies in a knot about it?

[beenthere]

My house is like having two windows open?
Man I could go on and on but where does it get me.

If you don't believe him.

Have a blower door test done.

[crash11]

Sure can
When the air infiltration is like having two windows wide open the unit is going to run non stop and keep sucking heat from the ground faster than the ground can give it back.

That doesn't explain it at all. If the loop is sized correctly the EWT should be a couple degrees below ground temp in heating season (doesn't matter how long the unit runs). From reading most of this thread I think it's been agreed upon that the loop is large enough. The question is if the ENTIRE loop is receiving equal flow.

Why is it the default of HVAC techs to exaggerate things and then only offer "call a pro" for advice? Do you only speak like normal intelligent people behind closed doors to one-another?

[beenthere]

That doesn't explain it at all. If the loop is sized correctly the EWT should be a couple degrees below ground temp in heating season (doesn't matter how long the unit runs). From reading most of this thread I think it's been agreed upon that the loop is large enough. The question is if the ENTIRE loop is receiving equal flow.

Why is it the default of HVAC techs to exaggerate things and then only offer "call a pro" for advice? Do you only speak like normal intelligent people behind closed doors to one-another?

Wagner was there.

Were you?

[Roscoe]

The HO being comfortable has little to do with the mechanical s, but more the envelope..........er..........building construction .......loss, gain, infiltration etc.................don't you think..............

Of course I realize I fack around too much to be taken seriously. I come here to blow off some steam if I wanted to be serious I'd stay at work..........

[beenthere]

What does a Geo system have to do with a Steam system.

Oh, you meant a different kind of steam. :D

[jongig]

Guess he thinks you have high infiltration values.

Why get your undies in a knot about it?


You're right and I'm a bit agitated to put it lightly. We sold a house with a air/gas unit that was about 3,000 sq/ft and moved into this one, 2,400 sq/ft. We look at our bills from the last house, which was about 15 years old, and they are within about 15% of each other. Right now that the temperature is staying under 30 I’m now over 65KWH per day to run the GTHP. In the other house we did partly heat the basement although we didn’t have a zone in the basement. In this house I do heat the basement but in this cold weather I’m not sure I should heat it so I’ve turned down the basement zone to 57 degrees and the basement this morning is 58 so that zone has not been on. The two houses were managed heat/ac wise much differently. In this house we’ve stopped turning down the temperature during the day/night because it won’t warm up in the evening/morning quickly enough. We have lowered the temperature in this house to 68 and we don’t move it. In the old house I would turn the daytime down to 62 and raise it to 70 in the evening when we walked in. At bedtime we’d lower it to about 65 and raise it to 70 in the morning. We also had a gas fireplace that we’d turn on to further heat the living room. The difference between the GTHP and the gas from my perspective is that you had flexibility with the gas and very little with the GTHP if maybe none.

On the other house the basement wasn’t insulated and we did not do nearly as much in that house to insulate and yet it seems as though the only way we can get down to the costs we projected in this house with GTHP is to turn the house into a thermos bottle. Funny that at the other house we used to see outside the house under the front door and we never fixed it. Now we are using a smoke unit to find any little intrusion of air into the house from the outside.

I for one am not convinced we made the right decision to go through the expense of installing the GTHP. Someone told me that even though you might not be saving money you should feel good that you went “Green”. That’s a good one considering PA is in the top 5 states for pollutants due to electric generation. Most of our electric comes from coal and I’m probably less “Green” than if I used gas.

If you guys that are good at this and read this say I’ve got it wrong and you can prove to me that GTHP works please send me the actual information including running costs and installation costs along with the zone information the house is in. I don’t care to hurt the sales of GTHP just because of mine but I am going to put something together to help educate those perspective people thinking about using GT. It either needs to be done right and we as the HO get a warranty on more than just what we can see or continue with just put in two 570ft bore holes and hope for the best and have people like me out there.

[John Owings]

Hi jongig,
I moved into a home with a water furnace geo-thermal system.
Most of the problems have been worked out, but the homeowner who had the system installed didn't want the emergency heat grid, so I am looking into getting one installed.
The system is amazing all summer long, cooling the house for half the electric I was paying for half the size my old house was. But due to the temp zone I live in, it's not as effective in heating. The exchange of heat, it's 30 deg out, and the house is 69 to 70 deg. Not bad, but when the out side air drops into the 20's the system just runs & runs.
The house is geo-thermal insulated, to the correct value, or my problems would be worse. Supplemental electric heat is cheaper than running the compressor all the time, especially since the geo-thermal system stores it.
However,
If you haven't insulated the home correctly, the heat pump will never store the ambient heat in the home as it should. A humidifier should be installed and working also.

Best of luck,
John

[larobj63]

You're right and I'm a bit agitated to put it lightly. We sold a house with a air/gas unit that was about 3,000 sq/ft and moved into this one, 2,400 sq/ft. We look at our bills from the last house, which was about 15 years old, and they are within about 15% of each other. Right now that the temperature is staying under 30 I’m now over 65KWH per day to run the GTHP. In the other house we did partly heat the basement although we didn’t have a zone in the basement. In this house I do heat the basement but in this cold weather I’m not sure I should heat it so I’ve turned down the basement zone to 57 degrees and the basement this morning is 58 so that zone has not been on. The two houses were managed heat/ac wise much differently. In this house we’ve stopped turning down the temperature during the day/night because it won’t warm up in the evening/morning quickly enough. We have lowered the temperature in this house to 68 and we don’t move it. In the old house I would turn the daytime down to 62 and raise it to 70 in the evening when we walked in. At bedtime we’d lower it to about 65 and raise it to 70 in the morning. We also had a gas fireplace that we’d turn on to further heat the living room. The difference between the GTHP and the gas from my perspective is that you had flexibility with the gas and very little with the GTHP if maybe none.

On the other house the basement wasn’t insulated and we did not do nearly as much in that house to insulate and yet it seems as though the only way we can get down to the costs we projected in this house with GTHP is to turn the house into a thermos bottle. Funny that at the other house we used to see outside the house under the front door and we never fixed it. Now we are using a smoke unit to find any little intrusion of air into the house from the outside.

I for one am not convinced we made the right decision to go through the expense of installing the GTHP. Someone told me that even though you might not be saving money you should feel good that you went “Green”. That’s a good one considering PA is in the top 5 states for pollutants due to electric generation. Most of our electric comes from coal and I’m probably less “Green” than if I used gas.

If you guys that are good at this and read this say I’ve got it wrong and you can prove to me that GTHP works please send me the actual information including running costs and installation costs along with the zone information the house is in. I don’t care to hurt the sales of GTHP just because of mine but I am going to put something together to help educate those perspective people thinking about using GT. It either needs to be done right and we as the HO get a warranty on more than just what we can see or continue with just put in two 570ft bore holes and hope for the best and have people like me out there.

You've now focused your animosity towards the system "type" and not the system you actually have. This is not the right path. You have written of the entire technology (which is very sound, I assure you) based on your bad experience.

Early on I questioned the payback of geo for residential use. It's long, but it's there IF THE SYSTEM WORKS TO FULL POTENTIAL! Yours clearly does not, that is the long and short of it. :(

Since we're talking about real money here, you may want to get a lawyer who will hire an impartial consultant to verify that your install is not up to par. I hate the thought of that route, but for you to live with this bum system is a hard pill to swallow. Damn man, you could have put in strip electric heat in every room and saved MAJOR COIN in first costs. Ughh, Terrible.

[Doug Lockhart]

Hi jongig,
I moved into a home with a water furnace geo-thermal system.
Most of the problems have been worked out, but the homeowner who had the system installed didn't want the emergency heat grid, so I am looking into getting one installed.
The system is amazing all summer long, cooling the house for half the electric I was paying for half the size my old house was. But due to the temp zone I live in, it's not as effective in heating. The exchange of heat, it's 30 deg out, and the house is 69 to 70 deg. Not bad, but when the out side air drops into the 20's the system just runs & runs.
The house is geo-thermal insulated, to the correct value, or my problems would be worse. Supplemental electric heat is cheaper than running the compressor all the time, especially since the geo-thermal system stores it.
However,
If you haven't insulated the home correctly, the heat pump will never store the ambient heat in the home as it should. A humidifier should be installed and working also.

Best of luck,
John

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG John with all due respect.
This system is obviously 'short looped'....it is probably 80-90% of the reason that GHP systems get bad names. I have watched this thread for a week and got to say that when building a GHP system you are building a 'chain'. If you put in a weak link, it will fail....this one failed.
Unless you did a 72 hour conductivity and diffusivity test you have NO WAY of knowing if the ground would support the 4 ton machine and ANYONE running a 25 degF loop at this time of year is 'short looped' IMHO.
I have a client with a 4 ton system here that runs less than $300/YR heating and cooling costs. Piss around with a lousy loop you are running the engine with the emergency brake on......high CR X mass flow/42.42 = high HP drain with piss poor heat...
John, even at 25 degF liquid the GHP has a COP of 2+ so this means it's using less than 50% of the energy that the strip heat is.....most H/P don't fall to COP of 1 'till -10 degF.

Jam another loop in next summer jongig, that's your best fix....you may even want to install it 100' away if possible and cycle your fields in the winter like they sometimes will do in commercial/institutional vert. loop fields.

[John Owings]

Thanks Doug, That makes sense.
It would explain his problem. I have ten acres, so the loop wanders across a couple of them, I expect about 200 feet out from the house, last I checked. That should not be my problem. Matching a Honeywell 8000 series thermostat to the zone computer was no problem.

My frustration has been matching the zone computer to the furnace.
I see the 24volt signals from the thermostats (for fan, compressor 1&2 etc.) but the output of the 'system2' zone control does not put out the same readings. Odder still, the change-over valve terminal "o" (output to the GHS) is reading voltage while the heat is on. It just doesn't make sense. The GHS normally activates the change-over valve on cooling, best I know.

The System2 is set for heat pump operation,
GHP is a water furnace system.

John

[jongig]

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG John with all due respect.
This system is obviously 'short looped'....it is probably 80-90% of the reason that GHP systems get bad names. I have watched this thread for a week and got to say that when building a GHP system you are building a 'chain'. If you put in a weak link, it will fail....this one failed.
Unless you did a 72 hour conductivity and diffusivity test you have NO WAY of knowing if the ground would support the 4 ton machine and ANYONE running a 25 degF loop at this time of year is 'short looped' IMHO.
I have a client with a 4 ton system here that runs less than $300/YR heating and cooling costs. Piss around with a lousy loop you are running the engine with the emergency brake on......high CR X mass flow/42.42 = high HP drain with piss poor heat...
John, even at 25 degF liquid the GHP has a COP of 2+ so this means it's using less than 50% of the energy that the strip heat is.....most H/P don't fall to COP of 1 'till -10 degF.

Jam another loop in next summer jongig, that's your best fix....you may even want to install it 100' away if possible and cycle your fields in the winter like they sometimes will do in commercial/institutional vert. loop fields.

Thanks for the great post, makes so much sense. I sure wish I was one of the lucky ones stairing at a $300 per year bill for this.

Since I've tried to get other parties involved and no one aggrees with you, I do, I'll probably end up either living with it or fixing it myself. Everyone here in PA including ClimateMaster thinks 30 degree water is just great.

[Roscoe]

Like I said months ago........Experiment...............

I don't care what you so called Engineer Experts say...........It's an experiment.


Prove the payback..........and incorporate all the cost..........and replacement cost.....in your.......Experiment............:rolleyes:

And don't give me all the who do voodoo crap like my Investment councilor does .......answer this.......Where Does The Money Go

[Doug Lockhart]

Everytime I get some Canuck redneck 'wood burning' logger here on Vancouver Island ask me what the payback is, here is my reply after I find out he's got a full size diesel P/U or SUV:
You put $45-50,000 into a vehicle with a 5 year warranty, plug $5000/yr into fuel and insurance, drive it for an average of 15 minutes a day X 365 days a year and at the end of 5 years you have a vehicle nearing tires/brakes/u-joints/trans service etc and not only has it depreciated $30,000 but it has cost you $25,000 to keep on the road for a grand total of $55,000 pissed into the wind!!!.......on the other hand you could spend $30,000 on a GHP home system that you or members of your family spend 8-18hrs/day in and rely on for their health supported by this system to keep them healthy (5X the incidence of Asthma now), have it pay for itself in 5-8 years, eliminate 8-12 tons of CO2 per year and then look forward to 18-20 more years of service.
How's the freakin' payback on that Hummer guys?.....ANYBODY EVER, EVER look at that?........no 'cause it's a dick measurer and we gotta stroke our egos.......:eek::eek:
So how was it again that we North Americans got into this recession.....strike that.....'RECKONING'? Karma guys, Karma....we reap what we sow....!!;)

[Freezeking2000]

Everytime I get some Canuck redneck 'wood burning' logger here on Vancouver Island ask me what the payback is, here is my reply after I find out he's got a full size diesel P/U or SUV:
You put $45-50,000 into a vehicle with a 5 year warranty, plug $5000/yr into fuel and insurance, drive it for an average of 15 minutes a day X 365 days a year and at the end of 5 years you have a vehicle nearing tires/brakes/u-joints/trans service etc and not only has it depreciated $30,000 but it has cost you $25,000 to keep on the road for a grand total of $55,000 pissed into the wind!!!.......on the other hand you could spend $30,000 on a GHP home system that you or members of your family spend 8-18hrs/day in and rely on for their health supported by this system to keep them healthy (5X the incidence of Asthma now), have it pay for itself in 5-8 years, eliminate 8-12 tons of CO2 per year and then look forward to 18-20 more years of service.
How's the freakin' payback on that Hummer guys?.....ANYBODY EVER, EVER look at that?........no 'cause it's a dick measurer and we gotta stroke our egos.......:eek::eek:
So how was it again that we North Americans got into this recession.....strike that.....'RECKONING'? Karma guys, Karma....we reap what we sow....!!;)

Such wisdom should not be allowed in HVAC! Cant you install a new unit for $1200.00? I dont have any money, as they drive away im the 80K BMW

[Doug Lockhart]

Such wisdom should not be allowed in HVAC! Cant you install a new unit for $1200.00? I dont have any money, as they drive away im the 80K BMW

Freezeking....true story.....I attended a 5 acre view property that the customer had a $80,000 pond built on so they could gaze over it whilst eating breakfast. (my mtn biking patner's family built it so I knew the cost) As the guy drove onto site with his loaded Envoy ($65,000 CDN) and his wife drove up in here Audi Quatro ($60,000 CDN) they informed me that my price of $30,000 for a zoned WFI system for their 4500 sq.ft. home with a nasty route to the zoned bonus room over the 3 car garage was WAY too high for their $1.5M home.....drive's me frickin' nuts!!!:mad::mad::mad:

[Roscoe]

Everytime I get some Canuck redneck 'wood burning' logger here on Vancouver Island ask me what the payback is, here is my reply after I find out he's got a full size diesel P/U or SUV:
You put $45-50,000 into a vehicle with a 5 year warranty, plug $5000/yr into fuel and insurance, drive it for an average of 15 minutes a day X 365 days a year and at the end of 5 years you have a vehicle nearing tires/brakes/u-joints/trans service etc and not only has it depreciated $30,000 but it has cost you $25,000 to keep on the road for a grand total of $55,000 pissed into the wind!!!.......on the other hand you could spend $30,000 on a GHP home system that you or members of your family spend 8-18hrs/day in and rely on for their health supported by this system to keep them healthy (5X the incidence of Asthma now), have it pay for itself in 5-8 years, eliminate 8-12 tons of CO2 per year and then look forward to 18-20 more years of service.
How's the freakin' payback on that Hummer guys?.....ANYBODY EVER, EVER look at that?........no 'cause it's a dick measurer and we gotta stroke our egos.......:eek::eek:
So how was it again that we North Americans got into this recession.....strike that.....'RECKONING'? Karma guys, Karma....we reap what we sow....!!;)

Jeeeeesus......take it easy or ...you need to go to the ARP section.to go on with that crap................I still don't think yer GEO sh!t works ...heh


......Show us hard Pay Back #'s............Great concept but you gotta spend a bundle making you're house tight, and you have to include it in the cost of building......that friggen monolith ...........;)

[Doug Lockhart]

Jeeeeesus......take it easy or ...you need to go to the ARP section.to go on with that crap................I still don't think yer GEO sh!t works ...heh


......Show us hard Pay Back #'s............Great concept but you gotta spend a bundle making you're house tight, and you have to include it in the cost of building......that friggen monolith ...........;)


When you do what you did you get what you got.....stay right where your at there Roscoe......keeps my rates up.....hang in there with your percentage on a $800 furnace.....don't ever change......thanx......;)

[Roscoe]

When you do what you did you get what you got.....stay right where your at there Roscoe......keeps my rates up.....hang in there with your percentage on a $800 furnace.....don't ever change......thanx......;)

Guess what, you don't sell any GEO systems here..... and you have no Idea what I do you Doug...........just show the pay back, or stuff it........DUDE...:p

[Doug Lockhart]

Guess what, you don't sell any GEO systems here..... and you have no Idea what I do you Doug...........just show the pay back, or stuff it........DUDE...:p

Proud to be in the industry with your there Roscoe. Your a real fine piece of work, you really bring us all up a notch....thanx.....I love contrast....;)

[boldthvac]

Twilli has energy star home, 3000 sq ft

I thought you were saving for a double wide?:p

[Roscoe]

Proud to be in the industry with your there Roscoe. Your a real fine piece of work, you really bring us all up a notch....thanx.....I love contrast....;)

HEH

Ya sound as if some one stuck a screw driver up yer ass.........now

Like I said "Put Up Or Shut Up" .......heh......."up a notch".............In your mind....


Put Up Or Shut Up........Dougy

[jrbenny]

Knock it off, knuckleheads.

[Roscoe]

Knock it off, knuckleheads.

ok MASTER.........:rolleyes:

[jrbenny]

No, Roscoe...i'm nobody's master. I'm just a mod here that's trying to keep a couple of knuckleheads from derailing a thread.

I'd appreciate if you kept the smart ass reply to yourself in the future when I or another mod ask you to cool things.

[Roscoe]

No, Roscoe...i'm nobody's master. I'm just a mod here that's trying to keep a couple of knuckleheads from derailing a thread.

I'd appreciate if you kept the smart ass reply to yourself in the future when I or another mod ask you to cool things.


yep got it master JR............any further discussions will be in private.......;)

[Doug Lockhart]

No, Roscoe...i'm nobody's master. I'm just a mod here that's trying to keep a couple of knuckleheads from derailing a thread.

I'd appreciate if you kept the smart ass reply to yourself in the future when I or another mod ask you to cool things.

Thanx

[RoBoTeq]

Like I said months ago........Experiment...............

I don't care what you so called Engineer Experts say...........It's an experiment.


Prove the payback..........and incorporate all the cost..........and replacement cost.....in your.......Experiment............:rolleyes:

And don't give me all the who do voodoo crap like my Investment councilor does .......answer this.......Where Does The Money Go
There is no reason for any geothermal system to be an experiment. If the ground loop system is properly installed and the system properly set up, there is no experimentation involved.

Geothermal systems have been around successfully heating and cooling homes for over 20 years. Most of the geothermal equipment I sell are replacement units for existing 20 year old systems that have been doing a great job with no experimentation factors.

[Roscoe]

There is no reason for any geothermal system to be an experiment. If the ground loop system is properly installed and the system properly set up, there is no experimentation involved.

Geothermal systems have been around successfully heating and cooling homes for over 20 years. Most of the geothermal equipment I sell are replacement units for existing 20 year old systems that have been doing a great job with no experimentation factors.

To clarify I'm not saying they don't work or aren't efficient, I'd like to see some real numbers for ROI....compared to a high efficient dual fuel system and tightening up the home.......

[junkhound]

I'd like to see some real numbers

Refer to post #233.
Agree that 'tightening up' a customers or own home should be first step regardless.

This is the sytem in my own house (seattle area), designed from the ground up by an aerospace engineer <big Grin>
Only items new in the system are the filter dryers and copeland scroll

Here are the specs.
TXV naturally, set up to run HP mode only.
evaporator is approx 70 ft or 3/4 old line set Cu inside 1-1/4 pvc pipe, beat the Cu up for more turbulence before inserting in PVC
condensor is a salvaged 7.5 T Carrier finned tube coil - biggest is best on condensor.
Compressor: 4T nominal copeland scroll, 14.1 m^3 R22 flow)
Blower: part of Rheem 4T existing air-air unit (operates when air temp over 45 F)

Specs last time i wrote down the numbers last week
in water = 55.5F
out water = 42.3F
flow = 8.2 gpm
7F SH
239.2 V @15.6A compressor draw
239.1 V @ 3.1 A blower draw
1540 CFM, 70F cond inlet 110F cond output air
COP of over 4, since comp and all lines are inside, effective heating COP is over 5 (if you believe in that method of marketing calculation)

Comparison: So, with 5 kW heat into house, for every 1kW that spins the meter, i get 17K Btu/hr. At say a nominal 10 cents kW/hr that gives 59 cents per therm. To beat this type system NG would need to sell for, at the house meter, for under 55.5 cents per 100 CF using a 94% efficient furnace.

[luv2cruiserccl]

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG John with all due respect.
This system is obviously 'short looped'....it is probably 80-90% of the reason that GHP systems get bad names. I have watched this thread for a week and got to say that when building a GHP system you are building a 'chain'. If you put in a weak link, it will fail....this one failed.
Unless you did a 72 hour conductivity and diffusivity test you have NO WAY of knowing if the ground would support the 4 ton machine and ANYONE running a 25 degF loop at this time of year is 'short looped' IMHO.
I have a client with a 4 ton system here that runs less than $300/YR heating and cooling costs. Piss around with a lousy loop you are running the engine with the emergency brake on......high CR X mass flow/42.42 = high HP drain with piss poor heat...
John, even at 25 degF liquid the GHP has a COP of 2+ so this means it's using less than 50% of the energy that the strip heat is.....most H/P don't fall to COP of 1 'till -10 degF.

Jam another loop in next summer jongig, that's your best fix....you may even want to install it 100' away if possible and cycle your fields in the winter like they sometimes will do in commercial/institutional vert. loop fields.



I agree add to your loop and get a seperate meter installed so you know excatly what the geothermal runs. Mine in my own home and at a cozy 73 degrees cost about $300 a year and i make that much in free hot water. And i do have the seperate electric meter to prove it! Good Luck

[luv2cruiserccl]

To clarify I'm not saying they don't work or aren't efficient, I'd like to see some real numbers for ROI....compared to a high efficient dual fuel system and tightening up the home.......


roscoe, not to be hard on you but geothermal is proven and absolutely NOT A Experiment............... NOT BUY FAR. I’m sorry that you seem to be so miss lead and don’t have the true understanding of geothermal and the cost. Geothermal is proven and when installed buy a professional geothermal contractor will provide15-20 Years + of proven reliability, at a much cheaper rate then lp, fuel oil could ever be.

[John Owings]

Geothermal systems have been around successfully heating and cooling homes for over 20 years. Most of the geothermal equipment I sell are replacement units for existing 20 year old systems that have been doing a great job with no experimentation factors.

Well all fun aside, that is what I have, a 20 year old system, and it has issues ;)
Most of them are ironed out, but the system should be doing much better.
Last night it was 5 degrees out, and the system can only reach 63 in the house. A ground loop system should be heating like it is 50 deg. outside.

I noticed a number of other people scratching their heads after installing a Honeywell 8000 series thermostat, who have a zone control system. So I am off with my meter to measure and record what the heck the zone control system is telling the GHS to do!

Here is what I think is the problem with a hi tech thermostat, and a hi tech zone control, they both want to control the CPH of the compressor.
This all feeds into the control board of the GHS.

If my observation is correct, the compressor is being cycled too much, and the system2 either needs to be removed from the system, or, the thermostat needs to be set at 1 CPH.

Do any of you have experience dealing with interfacing zone controls with these new thermostats?

John

[luv2cruiserccl]

Well all fun aside, that is what I have, a 20 year old system, and it has issues ;)
Most of them are ironed out, but the system should be doing much better.
Last night it was 5 degrees out, and the system can only reach 63 in the house. A ground loop system should be heating like it is 50 deg. outside.

I noticed a number of other people scratching their heads after installing a Honeywell 8000 series thermostat, who have a zone control system. So I am off with my meter to measure and record what the heck the zone control system is telling the GHS to do!

Here is what I think is the problem with a hi tech thermostat, and a hi tech zone control, they both want to control the CPH of the compressor.
This all feeds into the control board of the GHS.

If my observation is correct, the compressor is being cycled too much, and the system2 either needs to be removed from the system, or, the thermostat needs to be set at 1 CPH.

Do any of you have experience dealing with interfacing zone controls with these new thermostats?

John


John you have to think thou that this problem is with your thermostat and not your geothermal kinda mis leading

[John Owings]

I agree, I need to figure which one is the problem,
They system had a mercury bubble type thermostat, and I seriously doubt it managed the CPH of the compressor. So logically, the zone control was installed to do what the thermostat did not.

I am looking for the 24Vac readings from the zone control to the geo-thermal system. These readings are not making sense. The zone control seems to think all is fine, the system led panel is reading like nothing is wrong.
But the 24vac output is not reading out as it should.

Can the output of the zone control be momentary? That's the kind of reading I get.
I am figuring the zone control may be toast.

I am going to take another set of readings this morning, and see what is up.


John

[Roscoe]

roscoe, not to be hard on you but geothermal is proven and absolutely NOT A Experiment............... NOT BUY FAR. I’m sorry that you seem to be so miss lead and don’t have the true understanding of geothermal and the cost. Geothermal is proven and when installed buy a professional geothermal contractor will provide15-20 Years + of proven reliability, at a much cheaper rate then lp, fuel oil could ever be.

not to be hard on you but what didn't you understand about what I wrote.........not good at reading or comprehension which is it.......:rolleyes:


ROI........:p
.................................................. .................................................. ........................
JUNKHOUND............ROI...........;) not temps etc........

[luv2cruiserccl]

not to be hard on you but what didn't you understand about what I wrote.........not good at reading or comprehension which is it.......:rolleyes:


ROI........:p

I can actually understand hvac and new consepts unlike yourself. I assure you we all are the ones rolling our eye's at you...

[jongig]

I agree add to your loop and get a seperate meter installed so you know excatly what the geothermal runs. Mine in my own home and at a cozy 73 degrees cost about $300 a year and i make that much in free hot water. And i do have the seperate electric meter to prove it! Good Luck

I have a electric meter on the GTHP that reports to a spread excel spread sheet every 6 hours.

See Picture attached.

[luv2cruiserccl]

I have a electric meter on the GTHP that reports to a spread excel spread sheet every 6 hours.

See Picture attached.

The meter i have is just a digital. where did you get that one that reports to excel I like that alot!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Doug Lockhart]

I can actually understand hvac and new consepts unlike yourself. I assure you we all are the ones rolling our eye's at you...

Easy on him luv2cruise....he doesn't know about IGSHPA, GeoExchange Heat Pump Consortium, DOE......as we all know he would not believe anything we would say anyway......;)

[Roscoe]

I can actually understand hvac and new consepts unlike yourself. I assure you we all are the ones rolling our eye's at you...

Not to bright are we...ROI= Return On Investment................not rolling eyes............heh heh.....WOW boy did you just make yourself look real dumb..........and ahhh it's concepts not consepts......duh

[jongig]

We all have opinions of GT and mine was much better before I got stuck in my own system, which is quite frankly turning into a experiment. Let Roscoe have his opinion and frankly this thread and my problems are good fuel for his opinion, IMHO.

@John Ownings, you have issues as do I and start a thread with the information, please. It’s just confusing to go of topic.

The meter is a EKM meter. Just google EKM electric meter. You need the meter, 2 current transformers, EKM metering program, and the network converter.

The meter sends the information to the IP device which sends it over your network and you run the EKM program 24/7 and set it up any way you want. I have it set to record what you see in the picture but you can record much more. I have a networked computer for the security video system and it’s on all the time so I loaded the EKM program on it.

[junkhound]

Roscoe,

ROI is pretty dependent on performance, look at the bottom paragraph:
(note - appologies to the moderator if putting in hypotetical utility kW-hr prices violates the rules in residential)

NOT counting my own labor, my wshp paid for itself in less than 5 months, how is that for ROI??

Probably 2 years if I count my own labor at $100/hr.

I told a co-worker (a high end pro, he helps design the compressors that are going on the new 787 airplane) that he would have a good ROI doing a gshp, especially if he bought himself a backhoe, then he would have the backhoe as a 'gift to himself' when he was done!

[John Owings]

Sorry Jongig,
I did start a thread, and got no response.
I found your problem to be similar, and figure it might be one in the same.

No matter, even the contractor who installed the system can't figure it out.

I'll manage through it as a DYI, I have no choice :(

Thought I might get some help here.
Silly me :p

Good day,
John

[Roscoe]

Roscoe,

ROI is pretty dependent on performance, look at the bottom paragraph:
(note - appologies to the moderator if putting in hypotetical utility kW-hr prices violates the rules in residential)

NOT counting my own labor, my wshp paid for itself in less than 5 months, how is that for ROI??

Probably 2 years if I count my own labor at $100/hr.

I told a co-worker (a high end pro, he helps design the compressors that are going on the new 787 airplane) that he would have a good ROI doing a gshp, especially if he bought himself a backhoe, then he would have the backhoe as a 'gift to himself' when he was done!

Thanks Junkhound at least one person here can read but for the true ROI all the cost incurred have to be totaled and the savings then can be compared to another heat type.ie dual fuel w/ a 96% 2 stage variable and a 2 stage 18 seer HP.

Of course you saved a lot of money, but what if you had the system engineered and installed by a contractor, paying for everything.

oh and we do have PM's so you don't have to post pricing in open areas.....;).
.................................................. .................................................. .................

hehehe I just had another laugh at these guys........ROI.........hehe damn Roll Our I's............sheeee!t

[crash11]

Not to bright are we...ROI= Return On Investment................not rolling eyes............heh heh.....WOW boy did you just make yourself look real dumb..........and ahhh it's concepts not consepts......duh

too.............. not to

[luv2cruiserccl]

too.............. not to

I guess that is the question!!! HAHA

[Roscoe]

I guess that is the question!!! HAHA


heheheh ROI.......

[luv2cruiserccl]

heheheh ROI.......

at the current rate of return my roi in less then 3 yrs

[Roscoe]

at the current rate of return my roi in less then 3 yrs
You had no idea
So Don't go acting like you knew what ROI was NOW.......you thought it was

Roll Our I's.....................:eek:...........:D:D:D

[luv2cruiserccl]

You had no idea
So Don't go acting like you knew what ROI was NOW.......you thought it was

Roll Our I's.....................:eek:...........:D:D:D

even the most basic person now what it means its not like it a secert and your some real smart guy.... come on give me a break.. wow you know how to google. what a dumba$$!

[RoBoTeq]

My ROI on every piece of geothermal equipment I sell is immediate:D;)

[Roscoe]

My ROI on every piece of geothermal equipment I sell is immediate:D;)

hehe.smartass.......:p

[jongig]

This morning the temperature outside is 0 and for this area that's no uncommon. What is uncommon for me is waking up to the house being below 65. The house is set at 68 and because of the cold I’ve shut off the basement heat. The unit is running full tilt on stage 2 but it can no longer heat the house to a comfortable level.

Again I say that this temperature is normal for these parts and I’ve seen weeks of this and lower. I asked the installer about the heat strips when they I saw them and they said it was for emergency. I guess that’s really what I’m supposed to heat my house with when it gets this cold. I believe the heat strips are set at 4 degrees on the thermostat so they will kick in soon or we can just turn on the propane fireplace, which will cost less.

For the one or two of you that think 29 or below EWT is just fine what do you say to this and is this just normal. If it is and if I was told this I would not own a GTHP.

What about ClimateMaster and the program some of you use. It doesn’t work and no one should buy ClimateMaster would be my opinion.

Any of you out there that read this and read the information ClimateMaster provides, be careful. Be careful about getting into GT because it doesn’t always work and unless you have the right equipment and installer you will end up where I am, very dissatisfied.

It’s going up to 30 tomorrow so I guess the ClimateMaster will then be able to heat our house again.

[dzenzel]

What about ClimateMaster and the program some of you use. It doesn’t work and no one should buy ClimateMaster would be my opinion.

Any of you out there that read this and read the information ClimateMaster provides, be careful. Be careful about getting into GT because it doesn’t always work and unless you have the right equipment and installer you will end up where I am, very dissatisfied.

It’s going up to 30 tomorrow so I guess the ClimateMaster will then be able to heat our house again.


jongig,


I've been reading this thread. I live about 100 miles southeast of you and just installed three climatemaster systems for my home. Last night, they worked incredibly well (yes, at 0F-5F outside).

I had a horrible experience with my install in october. You know what the problem is? its the cocky installers that think they are better than everyone else. Its the same people that scream "we won't help DIY", and at the same time refuse to "teach" because, god-forbid, they might lose a customer 1000 miles away over the internet!

Why mine works? I did research myself! Try it.... there are sources on the internet that actually will help, and the SOFTWARE WORKS! Its the installers who should know better (with that vast experience they claim to have) what parameters to put into the system/program. I forced my loops to be longer than the HVAC installer wanted to provide - I controlled this, because I also contracted the well driller separately, and he understood! My units were sized close - but one should have been a little larger - after Climatemaster sent Harrisburg tech guys (Josh and Keith) to our house..... but we were close-enough, and the loops I demanded helped incredibly. Our EWT yesterday was still above 40F on all three separate loops.

Just go back through this thread and look at the "way these people present themselves"... half the loop is sarcasm, smart remarks and "what-ifs". Everyone seems to -know the answer- yet you are still stuck.

One thing I agree across the thread is "you need a good installer"..... it's unlikely you will find a local one that you will be totally "in love with", but with the right research into geothermal itself, and being on-top-of-every move they make, you will succeed. I did (so far). Sure, I upset some people along the way, but I was warm last night without AUX or even second stage!

As for a person to talk to, I know this guy is remote, but he has been very informative to me: Geodean (Palace Geothermal in SLC). Obviously Dean can't be here to help directly, but at least out of all the "noise" on the internet, he is willing to help give geothermal a good word and help run the software correctly and give information. I also think that Robo (here on this forum and linked to Climatemaster) can help....but seems pressured by these forum rules to do much......visibly.

STUDY, RESEARCH....... it works....

[beenthere]

What about ClimateMaster and the program some of you use. It doesn’t work and no one should buy ClimateMaster would be my opinion.



Garbage in = Garbage out.

[jongig]

jongig,


I've been reading this thread. I live about 100 miles southeast of you and just installed three climatemaster systems for my home. Last night, they worked incredibly well (yes, at 0F-5F outside).

I had a horrible experience with my install in october. You know what the problem is? its the cocky installers that think they are better than everyone else. Its the same people that scream "we won't help DIY", and at the same time refuse to "teach" because, god-forbid, they might lose a customer 1000 miles away over the internet!

Why mine works? I did research myself! Try it.... there are sources on the internet that actually will help, and the SOFTWARE WORKS! Its the installers who should know better (with that vast experience they claim to have) what parameters to put into the system/program. I forced my loops to be longer than the HVAC installer wanted to provide - I controlled this, because I also contracted the well driller separately, and he understood! My units were sized close - but one should have been a little larger - after Climatemaster sent Harrisburg tech guys (Josh and Keith) to our house..... but we were close-enough, and the loops I demanded helped incredibly. Our EWT yesterday was still above 40F on all three separate loops.

Just go back through this thread and look at the "way these people present themselves"... half the loop is sarcasm, smart remarks and "what-ifs". Everyone seems to -know the answer- yet you are still stuck.

One thing I agree across the thread is "you need a good installer"..... it's unlikely you will find a local one that you will be totally "in love with", but with the right research into geothermal itself, and being on-top-of-every move they make, you will succeed. I did (so far). Sure, I upset some people along the way, but I was warm last night without AUX or even second stage!

As for a person to talk to, I know this guy is remote, but he has been very informative to me: Geodean (Palace Geothermal in SLC). Obviously Dean can't be here to help directly, but at least out of all the "noise" on the internet, he is willing to help give geothermal a good word and help run the software correctly and give information. I also think that Robo (here on this forum and linked to Climatemaster) can help....but seems pressured by these forum rules to do much......visibly.

STUDY, RESEARCH....... it works....

Could you please be more specific in how you decided to go against the norm and increase your GT-loop? What program is accurate? Obviously you're not referring to the Climatemaster program? My installer priced my house for less than I have and I increased it like you but I guess I just didn’t go far enough?

My EWT this morning was just over 28 and the air temperature on second stage in the plenum is 82 and I’m guessing the unit is just loosing it’s ability to provide enough heat. If I had a EWT of 40 as you do I’d probably have the house at 70 and we wouldn’t have to be so bundled up and using the fireplace.

Please provide more information because I’m not giving this system a year, we’ve decided this. I can’t see waiting a year for a couple of reasons. We’ve not put in the lawn yet and plan on it in the spring along with the pavement. If I have to put in another well a year or so out I won’t be able to bring in the drilling truck without the possible/probable damage that the yard and driveway will incur.

Why did Climatemaster come to your house? Why did they decide to provide you with customer service but chose not to reply to our email?

Did you agree with ClimateMaster’s marketing? If you had installed the system according to what ClimateMaster recommended where would you be today?

Thanks.

[Doug Lockhart]

Could you please be more specific in how you decided to go against the norm and increase your GT-loop? What program is accurate? Obviously you're not referring to the Climatemaster program? My installer priced my house for less than I have and I increased it like you but I guess I just didn’t go far enough?

My EWT this morning was just over 28 and the air temperature on second stage in the plenum is 82 and I’m guessing the unit is just loosing it’s ability to provide enough heat. If I had a EWT of 40 as you do I’d probably have the house at 70 and we wouldn’t have to be so bundled up and using the fireplace.

Please provide more information because I’m not giving this system a year, we’ve decided this. I can’t see waiting a year for a couple of reasons. We’ve not put in the lawn yet and plan on it in the spring along with the pavement. If I have to put in another well a year or so out I won’t be able to bring in the drilling truck without the possible/probable damage that the yard and driveway will incur.

Why did Climatemaster come to your house? Why did they decide to provide you with customer service but chose not to reply to our email?

Did you agree with ClimateMaster’s marketing? If you had installed the system according to what ClimateMaster recommended where would you be today?

Thanks.

Jongig,
http://www.gaiageo.com/ is the best software in the world for Geo....
I have been installing GHP systems since 1988 and YOU ARE SHORT LOOPED....HEAR THAT....SHORT LOOPED.
Hire a IGSHPA and if possible WFI loop certified GHP contractor, and tie in an extra set of loops to get the temp up.....
Get him to show you his PD calc, reverse-return diagram and invoked Reynolds numbers for all circuits and sub-circuits. Use a UP-116 pump double pump flow center.
As much as I hate to admit it dzenzel and DIY, that waste hundreds of hours of my time, is correct. Remember when you are surgically extracting information from one of us contractors, you are taking food off our tables, that's how we feed our families and pay our mortgages. Do your research and find the best and most expensive, probably, GHP contractor and get it done.
FYI, we just did a re-do here on a $45,000 system, the homeowner refused to pay all the bill 'till 14 months after the job was completed to ensure it was done right....he paid us 2 months later because it was unbelievable compared to his old system....COMPLETE NEW LOOP.....26 degF up to 45 degF c/w 3600' of pipe and 600' of trench....:D
You can pick my brain if you pay for the phone call....I already PMd you on that....or you can continue to piss moan and whine what a victim you were.....your choice.;)

[RoBoTeq]

This morning the temperature outside is 0 and for this area that's no uncommon. What is uncommon for me is waking up to the house being below 65. The house is set at 68 and because of the cold I’ve shut off the basement heat. The unit is running full tilt on stage 2 but it can no longer heat the house to a comfortable level.

Again I say that this temperature is normal for these parts and I’ve seen weeks of this and lower. I asked the installer about the heat strips when they I saw them and they said it was for emergency. I guess that’s really what I’m supposed to heat my house with when it gets this cold. I believe the heat strips are set at 4 degrees on the thermostat so they will kick in soon or we can just turn on the propane fireplace, which will cost less.

For the one or two of you that think 29 or below EWT is just fine what do you say to this and is this just normal. If it is and if I was told this I would not own a GTHP.

What about ClimateMaster and the program some of you use. It doesn’t work and no one should buy ClimateMaster would be my opinion.

Any of you out there that read this and read the information ClimateMaster provides, be careful. Be careful about getting into GT because it doesn’t always work and unless you have the right equipment and installer you will end up where I am, very dissatisfied.

It’s going up to 30 tomorrow so I guess the ClimateMaster will then be able to heat our house again.
Sorry jongig, but you have been beating a dead horse here without doing what is needed. If all you want to do is to blame ClimateMaster, you will not get any support. Your problem is in the application and install. Since your contractor is unable to do the job properly and the ClimateMaster distributor your contractor uses refuses to do anything to help, you must either hire another contractor who has proper support from their ClimateMaster distributor or live with what you have.

You have now gone into blaming the wrong source of your problem without actively taking the advice of members of this forum and doing what is needed to fix your problem.

I realize that there are a couple of detractors of geothermal who are posting rhetoric about geothermal who are not helping with this issue. However; you are now ignoring the multitude of posters who properly install geothermal systems or have properly operating geothermal systems in their homes and are dwelling on the comments of the few who have no clue as to what they are posting about.

Stop making excuses and hire someone who can fix your system.

[jrbenny]

I had a horrible experience with my install in october. You know what the problem is? its the cocky installers that think they are better than everyone else. Its the same people that scream "we won't help DIY", and at the same time refuse to "teach" because, god-forbid, they might lose a customer 1000 miles away over the internet!

Your post offends me deeply.

I am truly pissed that you think you can come to this internet site and start lumping the posters here into some group that you dislike.

Here's an idea...

If you don't like our site rules, do not post here again.

Your attitude won't be missed.

[RoBoTeq]

Could you please be more specific in how you decided to go against the norm and increase your GT-loop? What program is accurate? Obviously you're not referring to the Climatemaster program? My installer priced my house for less than I have and I increased it like you but I guess I just didn’t go far enough?

My EWT this morning was just over 28 and the air temperature on second stage in the plenum is 82 and I’m guessing the unit is just loosing it’s ability to provide enough heat. If I had a EWT of 40 as you do I’d probably have the house at 70 and we wouldn’t have to be so bundled up and using the fireplace.

Please provide more information because I’m not giving this system a year, we’ve decided this. I can’t see waiting a year for a couple of reasons. We’ve not put in the lawn yet and plan on it in the spring along with the pavement. If I have to put in another well a year or so out I won’t be able to bring in the drilling truck without the possible/probable damage that the yard and driveway will incur.

Why did Climatemaster come to your house? Why did they decide to provide you with customer service but chose not to reply to our email?

Did you agree with ClimateMaster’s marketing? If you had installed the system according to what ClimateMaster recommended where would you be today?

Thanks.
Jongig, dzenzel had a situation where he was working with a contractor that was fairly new to geothermal systems. That contractor was in constant communication with the ClimateMaster distributor (not the one your contractor uses) and some of the information between dzenzel, the contractor and the ClimateMaster distributor did not get passed on in proper sequences.

As far as anyone on this thread who knows geothermal, and there are some really good geothermal posters here, you have enough ground loop. Whether or not the ground loop you have is properly transferring heat is what is mostly in question by those who have responded who know what they are doing.

I highly recommend you stop paying any attention to those who just posting rhetoric and pay attention to those who obviously know geothermal systems. Maybe dzenzel's contractor would be willing to get involved with your system.

[RoBoTeq]

Your post offends me deeply.

I am truly pissed that you think you can come to this internet site and start lumping the posters here into some group that you dislike.

Here's an idea...

If you don't like our site rules, do not post here again.

Your attitude won't be missed.
You know that I agree with you on this issue jr, but in defense of dzenzel, he had some experiences that made it "seem" as though what he "thinks" was occuring was really not. It was a matter of the timing between the contractor getting properly indoctrinated by the ClimateMaster distributor on proper proceedures of geothermal systems and a HO who was hoovering a little too close to the project. Can't say that I blame dzenzel, but we all know how annoying it can be when we are working on designing as we go and having a HO hoovering over us asking questions we may not yet have the proper answers to.

With so many different types of HVAC systems being designed and implemented, it would really be nice if the consumers gave the contractors a little slack and let them do their job.

[jrbenny]

You just don't walk into someone's house and piss on the carpet like an untrained dog.

[Doug Lockhart]

You know that I agree with you on this issue jr, but in defense of dzenzel, he had some experiences that made it "seem" as though what he "thinks" was occuring was really not. It was a matter of the timing between the contractor getting properly indoctrinated by the ClimateMaster distributor on proper proceedures of geothermal systems and a HO who was hoovering a little too close to the project. Can't say that I blame dzenzel, but we all know how annoying it can be when we are working on designing as we go and having a HO hoovering over us asking questions we may not yet have the proper answers to.

With so many different types of HVAC systems being designed and implemented, it would really be nice if the consumers gave the contractors a little slack and let them do their job.

Agree on both points BUT, I spend 30-40 hours a week giving 'free advice' to homeowners/DIY for GHP systems....in this day and age of 'free information available anytime, anywhere on the internet' it is NOT acceptable for dzenzel and others like him to phone up, extract 8-10 hours of site/phone/software time to help him save $1000.....again, we are not a computer screen...we are contractors with O/H, payrolls and families....don't be so frickin' self absorbed....then when the job goes sideways, blame one of the 4 guys you got free information from and assembled it in your own inexperienced mind improperly then had blow up!!!!!
33 years doin' this and I get so pissed with both sides.....lazy, untrained contractors goin' for the easy score and DIY $hitting in their own nest then blaming a contractor for the 'failed system'. I've got a $5M home on the ocean here in Vancouver with a $200,000 re-do.....if he doesn't do it EXACTLY like I tell him it needs to be done....I walk away....or it sets me up for failure.....if I take it at some of his insistence then my greed is my fault for not doing it properly.....short version in this new millenium and a new concept for a lot of '30 somethings'; Take responsibility.....

[RoBoTeq]

You just don't walk into someone's house and piss on the carpet like an untrained dog.
I agree. And I agree that dzenzel is out of line with the attitude. Just commenting that he had a situation that got out of hand because of too many chef's stirring the pot.

Hopefully, we on this site can help consumers who not just interested in DIY from so woefully misunderstanding our industry. We really are a bit like the medical industry in that there are some instances where we need to learn as we go. When consumers think we have all answers to all questions immediately, things can get very misconstrued, as has happened with dzenzel's system installation.

From what I understand, dzenzel is happy with the outcome of his install. Even with the off the cuff commentary about our trade, dzenzel can be of assistance to jongig on this particular issue.

I'm with you 100% jr. As you get a little longer in the tooth, you will mellow a bit more just like the rest of us old timers;). (with the exception of Glenn:rolleyes:)

[RoBoTeq]

Agree on both points BUT, I spend 30-40 hours a week giving 'free advice' to homeowners/DIY for GHP systems....in this day and age of 'free information available anytime, anywhere on the internet' it is NOT acceptable for dzenzel and others like him to phone up, extract 8-10 hours of site/phone/software time to help him save $1000.....again, we are not a computer screen...we are contractors with O/H, payrolls and families....don't be so frickin' self absorbed....then when the job goes sideways, blame one of the 4 guys you got free information from and assembled it in your own inexperienced mind improperly then had blow up!!!!!
33 years doin' this and I get so pissed with both sides.....lazy, untrained contractors goin' for the easy score and DIY $hitting in their own nest then blaming a contractor for the 'failed system'. I've got a $5M home on the ocean here in Vancouver with a $200,000 re-do.....if he doesn't do it EXACTLY like I tell him it needs to be done....I walk away....or it sets me up for failure.....if I take it at some of his insistence then my greed is my fault for not doing it properly.....short version in this new millenium and a new concept for a lot of '30 somethings'; Take responsibility.....
Agreed:confused:

Could you please put down any and all sharp instruments now?;)

[jongig]

Sorry jongig, but you have been beating a dead horse here without doing what is needed. If all you want to do is to blame ClimateMaster, you will not get any support. Your problem is in the application and install. Since your contractor is unable to do the job properly and the ClimateMaster distributor your contractor uses refuses to do anything to help, you must either hire another contractor who has proper support from their ClimateMaster distributor or live with what you have.

You have now gone into blaming the wrong source of your problem without actively taking the advice of members of this forum and doing what is needed to fix your problem.

I realize that there are a couple of detractors of geothermal who are posting rhetoric about geothermal who are not helping with this issue. However; you are now ignoring the multitude of posters who properly install geothermal systems or have properly operating geothermal systems in their homes and are dwelling on the comments of the few who have no clue as to what they are posting about.

Stop making excuses and hire someone who can fix your system.


I sure don’t think anyone should be mad at me for my opinion of Climatemaster. Maybe ClimateMaster should certify those that sell and install the units. Someone mentioned the Chain Theory here and aren’t Climatemaster a rather big part of the chain? Even if the equipment they sell works and then doesn’t work after installed like mine why shouldn’t I include them?

You’ve been nice to me all along but even those in this business like the ClimateMaster rep, the distributor, and two installers who installed and looked at my install say I have more than enough loop.

Am I missing something here? Haven’t I provided enough information to come to some conclusion that all the professionals on this thread should agree with?

Even in the last couple posts someone says I have enough loop.

I did hire a professional and to some degree he helped and I’m probably warmer today thanks to his help but it didn’t fix the system like we hoped.

Who do I hire next?

[jongig]

Jongig,
http://www.gaiageo.com/ is the best software in the world for Geo....
I have been installing GHP systems since 1988 and YOU ARE SHORT LOOPED....HEAR THAT....SHORT LOOPED.
Hire a IGSHPA and if possible WFI loop certified GHP contractor, and tie in an extra set of loops to get the temp up.....
Get him to show you his PD calc, reverse-return diagram and invoked Reynolds numbers for all circuits and sub-circuits. Use a UP-116 pump double pump flow center.
As much as I hate to admit it dzenzel and DIY, that waste hundreds of hours of my time, is correct. Remember when you are surgically extracting information from one of us contractors, you are taking food off our tables, that's how we feed our families and pay our mortgages. Do your research and find the best and most expensive, probably, GHP contractor and get it done.
FYI, we just did a re-do here on a $45,000 system, the homeowner refused to pay all the bill 'till 14 months after the job was completed to ensure it was done right....he paid us 2 months later because it was unbelievable compared to his old system....COMPLETE NEW LOOP.....26 degF up to 45 degF c/w 3600' of pipe and 600' of trench....:D
You can pick my brain if you pay for the phone call....I already PMd you on that....or you can continue to piss moan and whine what a victim you were.....your choice.;)


Good post. You are right on so many points.

[RoBoTeq]

I sure don’t think anyone should be mad at me for my opinion of Climatemaster. Maybe ClimateMaster should certify those that sell and install the units. Someone mentioned the Chain Theory here and aren’t Climatemaster a rather big part of the chain? Even if the equipment they sell works and then doesn’t work after installed like mine why shouldn’t I include them?

You’ve been nice to me all along but even those in this business like the ClimateMaster rep, the distributor, and two installers who installed and looked at my install say I have more than enough loop.

Am I missing something here? Haven’t I provided enough information to come to some conclusion that all the professionals on this thread should agree with?

Even in the last couple posts someone says I have enough loop.

I did hire a professional and to some degree he helped and I’m probably warmer today thanks to his help but it didn’t fix the system like we hoped.

Who do I hire next?
I also agreed that as far as my knowledge of geothermal goes you have enough loop. What I and others have consistantly been saying is that quality and design of the loop system you have appears to be flawed. This is not a ClimateMaster issue.

As far as the "chain" goes, ClimateMaster manufacturers the equipment which is sold to wholesale distributors who are responsible for the proper training and application support of the contractors that the distributer sells the ClimateMaster equipment to. The contractor is then responsible to the consumer and the distributor is responsible to the contractor, and in situations where the contractor is not able to resolve issues, the distributor is the manufacturer's rep to the consumer.

The contractors distributor needs to either inform the contractor of what the contractor did wrong or to determine that there is an equipment manufacturing defect and deal with the manufacturer on correcting that defect. None of this has occured with your situation. You are being left to fend for yourself with equipment that has been determined to be properly functioning by more then one contractor as well as by the distributor. It is time to find another contractor that has better distributor support.

[jrbenny]

That was a mellow response.

I didn't ban him.

:D

[RoBoTeq]

Good post. You are right on so many points.
I will concede that Doug is more proficient in the application and installation of geothermal systems. Even though other geothermal contractors are disagreeing with Doug on the amount of loop you have, and as far as I can ascertain strictly from the standpoint of information available, you do have enough loop, I would certainly not discount Doug's opinion here.

Still, the bottom line is that your problem stems from the application/installation and not from the equipment.

One thing should be noted; Doug is from a more northern climate then the other geothermal proficient posters who feel you have enough loop that is just not performing properly.

[RoBoTeq]

That was a mellow response.

I didn't ban him.

:D
Very true jr.....good job on restraint there:rolleyes:

[beenthere]

That was a mellow response.

I didn't ban him.

:D
Yes, that was mellow.

So when are you going to untie JR and let him at the keyboard, Mrs, benny. LOL

[Doug Lockhart]

I will concede that Doug is more proficient in the application and installation of geothermal systems. Even though other geothermal contractors are disagreeing with Doug on the amount of loop you have, and as far as I can ascertain strictly from the standpoint of information available, you do have enough loop, I would certainly not discount Doug's opinion here.

Still, the bottom line is that your problem stems from the application/installation and not from the equipment.

One thing should be noted; Doug is from a more northern climate then the other geothermal proficient posters who feel you have enough loop that is just not performing properly.

That's Northern Climate EH!!!!!;)
We do it on ice best (see the Junior World Hockey Championship....Gold again eh!!):cool:
Up here we have winter 10 months a year with 2 months of tough sledding!!:eek:

[RoBoTeq]

That's Northern Climate EH!!!!!;)
We do it on ice best (see the Junior World Hockey Championship....Gold again eh!!):cool:
Up here we have winter 10 months a year with 2 months of tough sledding!!:eek:
My error is being grammatically, not to mention politically correct:o

You can put the dogsleds away. No need to attack your "Southern" neighbors over a grammatical error;)

[junkhound]

Have to admit, this thread sure keeps my interest if only to hear the final outcome.

Advice to the original installers if they have even cared to read this thread?, but if I were troubleshooting this system, esp if it were my own, this is what I'd do:

Pull an old water heater from the back storeyard, connect it to the circulating pump and well outlets. Disconnect lines to WF, pump hot water thru ground loop (the wells-feed hot water into the wells) and monitor flow , hot in to colder out temp delta. Do the flow temp delta calculations to determine thermal transfer. Probably would show, as many times already infered by others and Doug most recently, that there is a poor thermal conductivity path between earth and the loop. Then fix whatever it takes, one bad install can ruin a reputation.

[wagnerhvac]

John and others

Here is what we have.

TTV048AGC01_R_S

15 KW heater with a honeywell zone system 2 zones basement and first floor

heat loss 52,824

heat gain 29759

ceiling R38 with some areas addressed

walls assumed R19 ( can't verify with out cutting drywall)

windows assumed U value .37 SHGC .31 (did not have brand name or models)

Basement walls insulated with 2" board and band board was not insulated but addressed.

Unit runs forever but is shutting down ( 6 hour reads with operating at 3.5KW equals 21 KWH your highest readng I think was 18)

5 ton unit would give 52,000 BTU for cooling on first stage (oversized to me)


These items were verified

whats happening?

Unit is running more than it should. Why?

I pointed out some of the areas that the inspector should have caught, as far as insulation. Still unknown behind the walls. As you were the GC for your
house, and it is a nice house, would you know if something was not correct? I still think it is still more infiltration.

Questions I still have. How well sealed is your gas insert fireplace on the outside wall. How much infiltration is coming from the attic to the basement through the mechanical penetrations that are not sealed with fire caulk, as we talked about for code. Are the walls insulated behind the tubs that are on the outside wall, usually tub installed first then insulation and it is hard to do after the fact.
Is the stereo rack in the wall cavity sealed from the attic?


So John the next step get someone to do a blower door test and infrared scan I'll even send you back your payment for the trip evaluation I did. Just say the word. I have nothing to gain or nothing to loose, Just trying to help get to the bottom of things.

The heat loss is obviously higher than the calculations are spitting out.

Kevin

[crash11]

Yeah, my opinion at this point (not worth much I'm sure) is to just use supplemental heating (blankets, space heaters, etc) for the rest of this winter, and have at least 1 more well drilled when the ground softens up. I'd probably put 2 in though. The problem though, is that it'll be a lot tougher to get good turbulence when you add wells unless there is a way to increase overall system flow a little.

Jon, is your flow center being restricted intentionally with ball valves to get 12 gpm? I would think so considering you have a 2 pump setup with only 1200' of pipe. My loop has over 3000' of 3/4" pipe and I get 9.5 gpm with a single pump. If you have extra flow potential you may be able to get away with just adding another well and bumping up the entire flow to about 15 gpm.

[jongig]

John and others

Here is what we have.

TTV048AGC01_R_S

15 KW heater with a honeywell zone system 2 zones basement and first floor

heat loss 52,824

heat gain 29759

ceiling R38 with some areas addressed

walls assumed R19 ( can't verify with out cutting drywall)

windows assumed U value .37 SHGC .31 (did not have brand name or models)

Basement walls insulated with 2" board and band board was not insulated but addressed.

Unit runs forever but is shutting down ( 6 hour reads with operating at 3.5KW equals 21 KWH your highest readng I think was 18)

5 ton unit would give 52,000 BTU for cooling on first stage (oversized to me)


These items were verified

whats happening?

Unit is running more than it should. Why?

I pointed out some of the areas that the inspector should have caught, as far as insulation. Still unknown behind the walls. As you were the GC for your
house, and it is a nice house, would you know if something was not correct? I still think it is still more infiltration.

Questions I still have. How well sealed is your gas insert fireplace on the outside wall. How much infiltration is coming from the attic to the basement through the mechanical penetrations that are not sealed with fire caulk, as we talked about for code. Are the walls insulated behind the tubs that are on the outside wall, usually tub installed first then insulation and it is hard to do after the fact.
Is the stereo rack in the wall cavity sealed from the attic?


So John the next step get someone to do a blower door test and infrared scan I'll even send you back your payment for the trip evaluation I did. Just say the word. I have nothing to gain or nothing to loose, Just trying to help get to the bottom of things.

The heat loss is obviously higher than the calculations are spitting out.

Kevin

I believe what you did for us was good and as I mentioned insulating was a good idea. I however believe that the unit does not have the capacity to heat the house. We've had power outages and in the previous cold snap it was out for a long time. The temperature in the house went down but with the propane fireplace the house didn't get cold.

I don't know how to proceed but I want more heat and this most likely means more loop and hopefully not a different GTHP. I would probably start by adding another 300 feet and going through next winter to see if the GTHP I have can heat the house.

I see my loop temperature go down in the last couple days below 28 and I just believe that the ClimateMaster does not get as much heat out of the water at these low temperatures.

I noticed that as the EWT increases so does the delta t in the loop. At 28 degrees in stage 2 the delta t is about 3.5 to 4 degrees. At 40 degrees I measured the delta t at 6 degrees. Doesn't this sugest that the house gets more heat at 40?

[junkhound]

the unit does not have the capacity to heat the house.

recall robo had a VERYearly post on well conductivity and poor installation.

Your wife is an engineer if IIRC, the reverse hot water test on you evaporator should be a cinch for her to figure out how to do.

IMHO, your sheat source with the low inlet temp must be a POS. Sorry to be that blunt.

[watercop]

"I noticed that as the EWT increases so does the delta t in the loop. At 28 degrees in stage 2 the delta t is about 3.5 to 4 degrees. At 40 degrees I measured the delta t at 6 degrees. Doesn't this sugest that the house gets more heat at 40?"

Yes, absolutely. Lower EWT means lower refrigerant pressure in evaporator (the waterside coaxial heat exchanger in winter) Lower refrigerant pressure means lower refrigerant flow through system. Compressor amps drops a bit as well. The all-important 'heat extracted' drops as well. You can verify this in performance tables available for your unit at ClimateMaster's website.

You may not be short-looped, but at those EWTs the loops you have aren't working very well. Your EWTs would be acceptable (and planned for during design - ACCA Manual S) in a more northern climate, but not in Penna.

Also bear in mind we've come off quite a cold snap - no geo system unless oversized to well below design temp would carry the load without some strip heat.

Consider a plug in oil-filled electric radiator heater for your son's room, possibly on a heavy duty appliance timer, at least until your duct issues get squared away.

I live in Florida but occasionally visit work HQ near Philly - could visit if useful, although it sounds like you got excellent boots-on-the-ground assistance from Wagner.

[gary wilson]

"I noticed that as the EWT increases so does the delta t in the loop. At 28 degrees in stage 2 the delta t is about 3.5 to 4 degrees. At 40 degrees I measured the delta t at 6 degrees. Doesn't this sugest that the house gets more heat at 40?"

Yes, absolutely. Lower EWT means lower refrigerant pressure in evaporator (the waterside coaxial heat exchanger in winter) Lower refrigerant pressure means lower refrigerant flow through system. Compressor amps drops a bit as well. The all-important 'heat extracted' drops as well. You can verify this in performance tables available for your unit at ClimateMaster's website.

You may not be short-looped, but at those EWTs the loops you have aren't working very well. Your EWTs would be acceptable (and planned for during design - ACCA Manual S) in a more northern climate, but not in Penna.

Also bear in mind we've come off quite a cold snap - no geo system unless oversized to well below design temp would carry the load without some strip heat.

Consider a plug in oil-filled electric radiator heater for your son's room, possibly on a heavy duty appliance timer, at least until your duct issues get squared away.

I live in Florida but occasionally visit work HQ near Philly - could visit if useful, although it sounds like you got excellent boots-on-the-ground assistance from Wagner.

My latest geo system is cooking w/ fuel...er, w/o fuel I should say. Although the strip heat is installed, the w is disconnected. We went below zero last week and the Ho's said the house stayed comfortable. The ewt never dropped below 41. It's a 3 ton system in a ranch, new duct system. The HO is still waiting for their first elec bill... we'll see what's what when that comes in.

[RoBoTeq]

My latest geo system is cooking w/ fuel...er, w/o fuel I should say. Although the strip heat is installed, the w is disconnected. We went below zero last week and the Ho's said the house stayed comfortable. The ewt never dropped below 41. It's a 3 ton system in a ranch, new duct system. The HO is still waiting for their first elec bill... we'll see what's what when that comes in.
Is this an open or closed loop system?

[Ed lohrenz]

The capacity of a geothermal heat pump in either heating or cooling mode, changes as the temperature of the ground heat exchanger (GHX) rises or falls. The colder the temperature of the fluid to the heat pump while heating, the lower the capacity of the heat pump. The TTV048 at 50 F entering water tempearture has a heating capacity of 50,300 Btu/hr. At 40 F entering it has a heating capacity of 43,900 Btu/hr. At 30 F the capacity drops to 37,900 Btu/hr. At 25 F, the capacity drops to 35,100 Btu/hr.

Assuming your heat loss calculation is reasonably accurate at 52,824 Btu/hr, the auxiliary will start coming on when the outdoor temperature is at design temperature and the GHX temperature is below 50 F.

In reality, if the heat loss is actually 53,824 Btu/hr, internal gains from occupants, appliances, lights, and solar gains will typically provide about 15% to 25% of the heat you require to keep the home at 72 F. In other words, the heat that must be provided by the heat pump is probably somewhere between 44,900 Btu/hr and 39,600 Btu/hr. Lets assume for this calculation that the internal gains provide 20% of the heat loss, or 10,565 Btu/hr. The heat pump has to supply the remaining 42,260 Btu/hr.

This means that when the GHX temperature drops below about 40 F, where the heat pump has a heating capacity of 43,900 Btu/hr, you will start seeing some auxiliary heat coming on when the outdoor temperature drops to the design temperature in your area.

If the GHX temperature drops to 30 F, you will be short by about 4,360 Btu/hr, or about 1.3 kW. If it eventually drops to 25 F (and most geothermal heat pumps will work fine at those temperatures), you'll be short by about 7,160 Btu/hr, or 2.1 kW.

If you are in Pennsylvania, the normal ground temperature should be about 51 F to 54 F, depending on where exactly you are located. Normally a GHX can be designed to operate at about 18 F to 20 F below the normal ground temperature. In PA, that would be about 31 F to 35 F.

There are a number of factors that must be taken into account when designing a GHX. These include: type of soil or rock, moisture content of the soil, normal soil temperature, depth of the vertical boreholes or horizontal trench, size of the borehole (if vertical), type of grout that was used to grout the boreholes, the size of pipe used, the type of heat transfer fluid that is being used, the flow rate required by the heat pump.

But first and foremost, you need to ensure that the heat loss is accurate. If it's not accurate you're in trouble before you start.

Then you need to make sure the distribution system is designed for the air flow rates required by the heat pump (the TTV048 needs about 1,600 cfm to operate efficiently)

Are pressure / temperture ports installed at the water inlet and outlet? If so, what is the pressure drop through the heat exchanger?

Geothermal heat pumps work very well, but if short cuts are taken in the design or installation of the system they WILL come back to haunt you.

[geodean]

Hey Ed,

Glad to see post here. I took your class in Golden Colorado last year.

[gary wilson]

Is this an open or closed loop system?

closed: two bores at 425 per hole, pipes in series not parellel. two pumps.

[RoBoTeq]

closed: two bores at 425 per hole, pipes in series not parellel. two pumps.
Then this certainly supports that there is most likely an issue with the loop on jongig's system. Thanks gary.

[geodean]

Then this certainly supports that there is most likely an issue with the loop on jongig's system. Thanks gary.


What a leap in logic this is :eek: :eek:

What size is Gary's house? What is the heat load?

I don't see how you can draw any conclusions about Jongig's house from Gary's statement

[RoBoTeq]

What a leap in logic this is :eek: :eek:

What size is Gary's house? What is the heat load?

I don't see how you can draw any conclusions about Jongig's house from Gary's statement
Sorry you didn't understand. Gary is in an area even further north then jongig and has higher inlet temperatures, thus, there is something wrong with jongigs loop.

I don't consider this a "leap" in logic, just a rational correlation of circumstances. Is there something that you would like to add rather then just dispute?

[geodean]

Is there something that you would like to add rather then just dispute?

For starters...Gary's house just come on line...just started extracting heat out of the loop...hasn't even ran a full month yet.

Jongig's house has been running all winter ...extracting heat out of the loop all winter.

Of course Gary's loop is going to warmer than Jon's.


thus, there is something wrong with jongigs loop

There is no "thus " that can be concluded from this

[RoBoTeq]

For starters...Gary's house just come on line...just started extracting heat out of the loop...hasn't even ran a full month yet.

Jongig's house has been running all winter ...extracting heat out of the loop all winter.

Of course Gary's loop is going to warmer than Jon's.



There is no "thus " that can be concluded from this
Jongig reported below freezing temperatures from the get go and before the weather even turned really cold. Please either keep up with the info or not be so arrogant about what you did not read.

[emcoasthvacr]

The last Tranquility 27 I installed was a 3 ton package -- we bored 4 holes 250ft deep to get a design water temp of 90 in the summer & 60 in the winter -- this is in NW Florida where our ground temp is 72 & we bore through sand & limestone (gravy).

You're probably 2 holes short -- the problem with geothermal is you have contractors that don't have either the experience or the intelligence to properly install regular air source heat pumps, let alone geothermal. Most of these contractors in our industry are lucky to have a high school education and a 100 IQ.

Probably the most important factor in a ground loop is the thermal conductivity of the earth where the loop is located -- this requires the ability of a mechanical engineer to discern the various conductivities of rock, limestone, shale, sand, etc -- not an uneducated contractor.

I couldn't imagine boring verticle in PA with the rock.


The system is 2 bore holes each 300 feet. Pipe going out is 1.25 inch and parallels to 1 inch into the bore holes.

House is well insulated. Gas dryer, gas range. Electric water heater. Two adults working 9-5 M-F. Kid is 8 and in school.

Location is NE-PA, NE of Scranton, Zone 5.

[RoBoTeq]

The last Tranquility 27 I installed was a 3 ton package -- we bored 4 holes 250ft deep to get a design water temp of 90 in the summer & 60 in the winter -- this is in NW Florida where our ground temp is 72 & we bore through sand & limestone (gravy).

You're probably 2 holes short -- the problem with geothermal is you have contractors that don't have either the experience or the intelligence to properly install regular air source heat pumps, let alone geothermal. Most of these contractors in our industry are lucky to have a high school education and a 100 IQ.

Probably the most important factor in a ground loop is the thermal conductivity of the earth where the loop is located -- this requires the ability of a mechanical engineer to discern the various conductivities of rock, limestone, shale, sand, etc -- not an uneducated contractor.

I couldn't imagine boring verticle in PA with the rock.
Well mr. edumacated one, even if most contractors are too stupid to do what you do, the amount of loop for jongig's system is what is specified by dem collegiate types that do the geothermal designs.

So what say we knock off all of these egotistical postings and try to stick with facts? The amount of wells is sufficient according to every chart, so if it is the loop that is the fault, it must be the quality of the loop. And I certainly do not have to tap into my college education or above average IQ to figure that one out.

[cactusjack]

Time to put that Safety Belt back on.....dang Robo...you beat Twilli and Roscoe to the punch...Roscoe must be under the weather.....it's Saturday Night Live

[geodean]

The amount of wells is sufficient according to every chart,

This is simply not true. I would like to see you post one report here that shows he has enough loop in the ground.

Attached is a design based on the heat load provided by Wagner HVAC.

It shows 800' of bore hole is needed.

If I remember right, you do not design nor install geothermal. How is it then that you are such an expert?

There are numerous posts on this thread by those who do design and install geothermal who say Jongig is short looped. I agree with them.


Originally Posted by Doug Lockhart View Post
Jongig,
http://www.gaiageo.com/ is the best software in the world for Geo....
I have been installing GHP systems since 1988 and YOU ARE SHORT LOOPED....HEAR THAT....SHORT LOOPED.

[Doug Lockhart]

Guys,
The Gaia software.....half of it is written by Ed Lohrenz...I have taken a ton of courses in GHP but over the last 20 years have talked and bugged Ed for hundreds of hours which taught me the most.....He is, IMHO, one of the if not the most well educated AND experienced GHP installers, instructors, designers, manufacturers, etc.in NA.

He invented the GHP hockey rink guys.....that heats the entire building, ice melts the parking lot and the seniors housing next door....OH yah it also makes the most consistent ice for hockey, figure skating and yes oval speed skating with differing temperatures for the corners and straight aways....
;):D

[RoBoTeq]

This is simply not true. I would like to see you post one report here that shows he has enough loop in the ground.

Attached is a design based on the heat load provided by Wagner HVAC.

It shows 800' of bore hole is needed.

If I remember right, you do not design nor install geothermal. How is it then that you are such an expert?

There are numerous posts on this thread by those who do design and install geothermal who say Jongig is short looped. I agree with them.
It is absolutely true that I am not a geothermal expert. I was going by other experts on this thread who have posted the required bore hole for jongig's system and who have disagreed with you on what you have come up with.

Who are we to believe when the so called experts disagree? Are we to believe what the manufacturer's of the equipment require? According to a hydrogeologist whose seminar on geothemal applications, there can be a variety of reasons why bore holes can vary greatly depending on soil, rock and water content. According to this expert, the Eastern PA area does not have many trouble spots as long as proper grouting is used and a reverse return loop system is installed. Again; who are we to believe?

[mdharris68]

After a good day of reading, ( I just had to see how this all ended,which it hasn't), and after looking at all of the facts and learning tons of specifics, I would have to guess that there is poor earth contact down hole.

In my mind, all of the evidence points to this. A two day delay in grouting the holes leaves a lot of room for problems right there. Jongig already stated that the loop temp will heat back up fairly quickly after a two hour off time, and drop off fast after it starts extracting heat. If there where pockets of air in the wells, wouldn't this explain the quick temp rise when off?

Has there been any testing done such as going to emergency heat for 24 hours so that the loop temp can be checked on startup to see if the water temp is close to the 52 degree subteranian temp? And next plotting the temp drop according to time? I would think that a test like this could give an idea of the shape of the holes. Jongig said there where just 1.5 degrees diff across the two wells. One other problem I see is we don't know what type of flush cart or pump was used. I understand it takes 2 gallon per minute water flow to break up the air molecules in the water. Jongig said they had a pool pump and a tote. Is this a standard practice for some of you guys?


Wouldn't you expect to have less that stellar performance out of a horizontal loop in the first year unless the dirt was flooded back in the trench with water? (Trying to compare this with a new horz loop field)

As a side note to anyone who can answer this: With the design of the header for the two wells shown in post #111, how can the water flow equally through the two wells? I see it as the water taking the path of least resistance and going straight forward into well #2 that is opposite the 1.25 inch header to the house. What is going to make that water turn two nintey's into well#1 when it can easily just go straight on by. I could see if there was a restriction on well #2, like 3/4 inch pipe instead of 1". Wouldn't this simulate a short loop field? If not, why not?

[RoBoTeq]

Guys,
The Gaia software.....half of it is written by Ed Lohrenz...I have taken a ton of courses in GHP but over the last 20 years have talked and bugged Ed for hundreds of hours which taught me the most.....He is, IMHO, one of the if not the most well educated AND experienced GHP installers, instructors, designers, manufacturers, etc.in NA.

He invented the GHP hockey rink guys.....that heats the entire building, ice melts the parking lot and the seniors housing next door....OH yah it also makes the most consistent ice for hockey, figure skating and yes oval speed skating with differing temperatures for the corners and straight aways....
;):D
Then if the amount of bore is incorrect, we are still at the fact that jongig's system is being adversely affected by the quality of the loop and not by the function of the equipment as jongig is now trying to claim.

[RoBoTeq]

After a good day of reading, ( I just had to see how this all ended,which it hasn't), and after looking at all of the facts and learning tons of specifics, I would have to guess that there is poor earth contact down hole.

In my mind, all of the evidence points to this. A two day delay in grouting the holes leaves a lot of room for problems right there. Jongig already stated that the loop temp will heat back up fairly quickly after a two hour off time, and drop off fast after it starts extracting heat. If there where pockets of air in the wells, wouldn't this explain the quick temp rise when off?

Has there been any testing done such as going to emergency heat for 24 hours so that the loop temp can be checked on startup to see if the water temp is close to the 52 degree subteranian temp? And next plotting the temp drop according to time? I would think that a test like this could give an idea of the shape of the holes. Jongig said there where just 1.5 degrees diff across the two wells. One other problem I see is we don't know what type of flush cart or pump was used. I understand it takes 2 gallon per minute water flow to break up the air molecules in the water. Jongig said they had a pool pump and a tote. Is this a standard practice for some of you guys?


Wouldn't you expect to have less that stellar performance out of a horizontal loop in the first year unless the dirt was flooded back in the trench with water?

As a side note to anyone who can answer this: With the design of the header for the two wells shown in post #111, how can the water flow equally through the two wells? I see it as the water taking the path of least resistance and going straight forward into well #2 that is opposite the 1.25 inch header to the house. What is going to make that water turn two nintey's into well#1 when it can easily just go straight on by. I could see if there was a restriction on well #2, like 3/4 inch pipe instead of 1". Wouldn't this simulate a short loop field? If not, why not?
And this is what I have been stating all along is what the evidence shows. If it turns out that there is also not enough bore hole, then that would compound the situation, but would not in itself cause the conditions that occur when there is little heat loss with ambient temperatures in the 40s.

It seems like there is more of a competition of egos posting here then actual troubleshooting the entire system. Jongig's situation may well be not having enough bore hole, it seems to be a 50/50 split on this issue. But, there seems to be no doubt that what bore hole there is and what loop there is, is incorrectly installed and not doing the job it is intended to do.

[Senior Tech]

The last Tranquility 27 I installed was a 3 ton package -- we bored 4 holes 250ft deep to get a design water temp of 90 in the summer & 60 in the winter -- this is in NW Florida where our ground temp is 72 & we bore through sand & limestone (gravy).

You're probably 2 holes short -- the problem with geothermal is you have contractors that don't have either the experience or the intelligence to properly install regular air source heat pumps, let alone geothermal. Most of these contractors in our industry are lucky to have a high school education and a 100 IQ.

Probably the most important factor in a ground loop is the thermal conductivity of the earth where the loop is located -- this requires the ability of a mechanical engineer to discern the various conductivities of rock, limestone, shale, sand, etc -- not an uneducated contractor.

I couldn't imagine boring verticle in PA with the rock.


"Most of these contractors in our industry are lucky to have a high school education and a 100 IQ."

And some wonder why the industry suffers? It's comments like these.

[geodean]

But, there seems to be no doubt that what bore hole there is and what loop there is, is incorrectly installed and not doing the job it is intended to do.


Yes !!!!! something we can agree on :D :D

[RoBoTeq]

Yes !!!!! something we can agree on :D :D
We got off on a tangent that I caused by error. My main contention is that there is a problem, most likely several, with the loop system and not with the general design of the geothermal equipment as is now being suggested by jongig.

My expertise in geothermal so far is 98% theoretical with a very little on job troubleshooting with others who know geothermal systems. I have learned more on this thread from those of you who work with geothermal systems then I care to admit. OK, I just admitted it.

Still, I don't want jongig to get out of this thread that there is nothing wrong with the loop system or bore holes that he has or that geothermal is still some kind of experimentation source of heating and cooling.

Carry on. I will try to do more following and less interferring;)

[jongig]

It's hard to understand how we can have different conclusions from the same information on this thread. I am of the belief that I am not able to extract enough heat from the ground to heat my house adequately with my present system. I do believe that with an additional 300 ft well I would probably be much better off. If I had the extra cash I’d probably make sure I had more than enough and drill two more wells bringing the system up to 1,200 ft. We will not be able to do that.

@Ed Lohrenz;

Thanks for the very well thought out post. I understand what you say and I have a comment or two.
On heat loss. If I provide the average outside temperature for a period of time, inside average temperature, say 24 hours, and then I provide the electrical usage on my TTV049 unit for that same period, can’t we figure out my heat loss?
The inlet/outlet ports have PT ports and the pressure drop was 5PSI if I recall. We concluded I have about 11-12 GPM.

@mdharris68;

I was not happy with the way the pipes were headed and I quickly told the men working at the house about this. I then got into the hole and realized that the T reduced on the well side from 1.25 inch to 1 inch. I don’t recall that actual calculation of head loss but it was about 20 feet difference between the two wells. I could be wrong because I had to use calculations from pipe used in water systems but with only two wells it wouldn’t cause enough problem to be noticed. The reason is because of the pressure the fluid is under when it goes into and out of the T. This is not the cause of my problem.

@Robo:

I was here and spoke to the driller and he told me he’s had 20 plus years experience doing GT. They hit solid rock in my back yard at a depth of 3 feet and it was slow drilling for two days because of the rock. Maybe this has something to do with the problem but I don’t know. We can’t fix whatever is wrong even if there is something wrong with the well. The two wells are working or I wouldn’t have any heat and most of the time we have enough heat. So what can we do but add more to the system in the way of more ground loop or loops.

@all

I started this thread with the hopes of understanding my New Geothermal System and there are so many great posts and some great education. I know this will sound a bit sappy and I’m sure not the sappy type but I have a lot of respect for what you do and that you take the time to help out a knucklehead like me.




Below is a conversation I had with my installer.

I talked to the installer about the loop temperatures again last week and I mentioned how the GTHP could not maintain the temperature in the house in last week's cold spell. I then asked him if he thought I needed a new unit or more loop. His answer was that more loop might help but that I should wait a year before making the decision. His reason that I should wait is based on the theory that next winter I will be extracting the heat that I had put into the ground in the summer months while with AC. I then mentioned to him that at this point I have no pavement and no grass and I will not want the drilling rig in my yard after this spring when the yard and driveway are installed. He agrees that installing another hole would most likely solve the problem of not being able to heat the house in the colder weather. He is going to get me a price on another 300 ft well, which would increase the loop by a third.

I do not believe that the summer heat put into the ground is available in the winter and if I’m wrong would someone please show me where I can read about this.

John

[mdharris68]

I don't know where you can read about this but here is my understanding of it.

Your wells will give up heat until you get to the end of the coldest weather. At this point, the ground, or rock, will be cool all around your pipes. When you start in to the cooling season, the ground may be cooler than the average subteranian temp. Your cooling will start and you will start to heat the ground/rock around your tubing and this will last until late summer. In theory, a slow gradual increase in ground temp in the cooling mode, and a slow gradual decrease in your ground temp while in the heat mode. It's a cycle that will happen over and over. Does this make sense? The max temp swings occur at or near the end of the respective seasons. Edited to add: This happens more with horizontal loop fields because the ground temp changes with the ambient temp. Ground = heat sink.

Did they run thier pump on your loops long enought to push the air out of the loops? I had a system that had the same problems, and it was when I added the antifreeze,(can't remember the exact name of it) to the loops, I also added air and didn't get it flushed properly, causing a similar problem with EWT. I or we, the company I work for, are new at this and still learning.

[jongig]

We got off on a tangent that I caused by error. My main contention is that there is a problem, most likely several, with the loop system and not with the general design of the geothermal equipment as is now being suggested by jongig.

My expertise in geothermal so far is 98% theoretical with a very little on job troubleshooting with others who know geothermal systems. I have learned more on this thread from those of you who work with geothermal systems then I care to admit. OK, I just admitted it.

Still, I don't want jongig to get out of this thread that there is nothing wrong with the loop system or bore holes that he has or that geothermal is still some kind of experimentation source of heating and cooling.

Carry on. I will try to do more following and less interferring;)

I think you should interfere all you want. I think this thread should be shown to anyone thinking of installing GT systems. I also think installers need to follow up on systems they’ve installed so they can be sure they are delivering a good product and I’ll bet Dewayne and some others do follow up. I get the idea Dewayne has quite an ego but it’s just the ego a HO needs. If he was the installer I’ll bet he would’ve dug up the 300 ft hole himself just to see what the heck was going on. I was surprised that my installer doesn’t go back to his installs to collect data. Most people are not like me as my installer told me, and they don’t have an electric meter and don’t follow costs so closely. I really don’t give a hoot about the EWT but it all seems to boil down to the EWT is my BIG, BIG PROBLEM.

John

[RoBoTeq]

The reason geothermal works so well is because heat is transferred so efficiently through the mass of the earth. You are not using heat you put in during the summer to heat during the winter. It is difficult to believe that someone has 20 years of experience with geothermal if they don't understand the basic principal of geothermal.

Why do you have to pay for another well? If the system calls for more well in order to function properly, then why should you have to pay for what should have been done in the first place? If however, the amount of well you have is what the equipment manufacturer called for, then if the wells were properly installed there would be no problem. Either way, you should not be having to pay for more well unless there is something that we have not been told about how you negotiated this system to be installed.

Did you contract for a complete system or did you act as a general and piece out components of the geo system seperately?