Id rather see Toyota buy GM

[frostman]

With all the problems the not so Big 2.25 are having, it doesn't look like they're going to make it. Now the Democrats want to take partial ownership of the car companies..personally, i'd rather see Toyota buy a controlling stake in GM, at least they know how to make money. Either way, i'm ready to trade in my Grand Prix, (that is, if it was worth anything) for a Honda or Toyota, i'm afraid pretty soon they're going to be the big, and only, 2.

[acmanko]

I'd just as soon see them restructure. Circuit City just entered bankruptcy and they are already planning a huge sale.

one little known fact from the 1970's-1980's. Detroit asked for and got duties added to the price of Japanese cars so they would be more expensive than American cars. So what did Detroit do. The raised the price of American cars, and have been goig downhill eversince. It did'nt take the Japanese long to figure out they could build their cars here and export them around the world because of the highly educated workforce. The problem is in management , plain and simple.

[Pascone10]

i only buy american.. i have a chevy:D:D
no point in supporting other countries if you can help it.
imaging thats some young kids dad that lost their job:mad:
i know it sounds crazy but thats what i think about....

[snewman24]

With all the problems the not so Big 2.25 are having, it doesn't look like they're going to make it. Now the Democrats want to take partial ownership of the car companies..personally, i'd rather see Toyota buy a controlling stake in GM, at least they know how to make money. Either way, i'm ready to trade in my Grand Prix, (that is, if it was worth anything) for a Honda or Toyota, i'm afraid pretty soon they're going to be the big, and only, 2.

The problem is that even having Toyota as a majority owner, GM would still be stuck with the UAW and all the legacy labor costs that make the Big 3 non-competitive with foreign manufacturers. Only chapter 11 bankruptcy and re-organization could give them some relief from this.

[jayhawker]

If the big three American auto makers go bankrupt alot of their suppliers will too. Those suppliers also furnish parts to overseas auto makers and it will cause the cost of those cars to rise due to a shortage of certain parts that are supplied by outside vendors to all auto makers.

[chaard]

The problem is in management , plain and simple.

The problem is the UAW

[Pneuma]

The big three also have an issue with dealerships. Apparently the Japanese manufacturers structured thoise relationships significantly differently. I can;t remember the details but that is alos oen of those legacy costs. BTW a lot of white collar workers also got bought out with packages, so the health care and pension si just not union workeres, it's managers also.

[bootlen]

I find it hard to understand how a $25/hr. tech can afford a vehicle built by a $78/hr. assembly worker.

[jrbenny]

I'd like to meet an assy worker making that jack.

I know none of my friends that are employed at either Ford plant in Louisville make that kind of money.

[bootlen]

Includes bennies for union members. It's the national average for members.

[the mojo]

The gap between UAW and non- union workers is not that large as a base pay.

The average UAW line worker makes between 26 to 28 bucks. Skilled labor is more.

A line worker a Honda is at 24.25 but has got a bonus every year for 21 straight years as of 2007.
The difference between is of course easy. Health care and pension.

[HeyBob]

The workers average at American Axle in Detroit was just a little higher than that. Would you work an iron forge for less?




Includes bennies for union members. It's the national average for members.

[The Doctor]

This is the next step in the acquisition of the means of production by the State. It's all written in the book. Ya know, the Democratic manual :eek:

Republicans lost the election in a BLOODBATH because they don't believe in the free market any longer, and they succeeded in growing the government (building the future regulatory structure).

Will be anything left in this country to regulate? There might, and it will pay less than we think we're used to being paid.

[conky]

Each vechicle GM makes has a very large cost built into it's sales price, compared to the newer American Car Manufactures.

Between the Company Management, Company Workers/ Union Representatives, Retired Workers; Legacy cost have caught up with them.

Stay Gold,
Conky

[the mojo]

The workers average at American Axle in Detroit was just a little higher than that. Would you work an iron forge for less?

Line workers @ AAM make 14 skilled 18.50.
They gave it up at their last contract.

[the mojo]

The UAW has been making concessions to their labor force.

But how much does Rick Wagner and the rest of upper management make at GM?

For that matter the rest of them Delphi, AAM,GM, Cerberus have the upper management taken salary cut in line with labor cuts.

[the mojo]

Any way you look at it the Big Three will need some help.

That one in ten effect on the American work force is something to study.
http://www.cargroup.org/

[jrbenny]

Let 'em sink.

Somebody will by the scraps and rehire the labor force.

It's a business cycle.

This government intervention needs to stop NOW!

[trane]

Let 'em sink.

Somebody will by the scraps and rehire the labor force.

It's a business cycle.

This government intervention needs to stop NOW!


I agree 100%

They are in need of money but look at what the union is going to want on top of the money GM needs.

If the plan were to offer no strong guarantees against layoffs it would likely draw fire from unions. But Obama advisers have been persuaded that the impact on current workers and retirees would be staggering if the companies went into bankruptcy.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=washingtonstory&sid=aBlCucXR33Jw

[bootlen]

Let 'em sink.

Somebody will by the scraps and rehire the labor force.

It's a business cycle.

This government intervention needs to stop NOW!

Right on, JR. Time to be held accountable.

[forged alloy]

The concessions the Union made were for incoming workers. The problem in the plants are the high seniority guys never leave.

No one in business would want to enter into an ownership position with a hostile partner. As an owner making a huge investment you would want control. When you buy into a union shop, you also hire an unknown and potentially hostile partner. This is why there are so many vacant plants and out of work union guys in Detroit right now.

Federal intervention is being pushed hard right now by many. I see this as defacto nationalization of an industry. It goes against everything I believe about America. I also see it just allowing the status quo to continue without the sea-change necessary to turn things around.

Even though I am in the middle of ground zero, I fear bankrupcy, reorganization, restructuring, and an enema to the management that put these institutuions in this position is the only long term fix, god help us. It will be very painful to so many in this area that it just makes me sick.

[JRINJAX]

If the big three American auto makers go bankrupt alot of their suppliers will too. Those suppliers also furnish parts to overseas auto makers and it will cause the cost of those cars to rise due to a shortage of certain parts that are supplied by outside vendors to all auto makers.
A lot of the suppliers have the same problem that the big three have, the UAW.

The big 3/suppliers need to file bankruptcy that will void their union contracts. The new owners can then have their employees reapply as non-union compeitive workers and the only job losses will be the lazy and the Union bosses.

[whec720]

This $#%king bail out bill is a disaster. Now everybody is waiting in line for our money, including the state of California. Sink or swim to the Big Three, thats what I say. And while they are at it, try to make a vehicle that people want to buy......%$#king whiney welfare state.:mad:

[sysint]

....The problem is in management , plain and simple. Yea. I'll agree with that. They take too much money and have poor planning. They let the unions run all over them and the liabilities have killed their company. They also do things like let the union dictate that a union forklift driver doesn't have to get his #$$ off the seat of the forklift do move something not on a pallet and the union is stupid enough to think that's a good idea.... and that something on a pallet can't be touched by someone else even if the guy is on lunch or break...Brilliant Thinking. After wasteful labor like that then they cut out nice quality components and people complain American cars are junk. Now you know why the dash in your Chevy isn't as nice as that Toyota.

Meanwhile, the Japanese work on efficiency, limiting corporate bloating, fat outsourced spinoffs, etc...

So much for the American way. I say they all made their bed so they can all lie it. Leave the car making to the professionals from the other countries.

[The Doctor]

Should we bail this kind of disparity out with tax dollars?

Live and let die.


Like JR said, someone will come along and pick up the infrastructure and take a shot at making it work.

[acmanko]

Ford to pay new CEO $2M salary, $18.5M bonus

By Shawn Langlois, MarketWatch
Last update: 4:49 p.m. EDT Sept. 8, 2006SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- Ford Motor Co., in the middle of a wrenching restructuring that already has led to plant shutdowns and thousands of job cuts, said Friday that it will pay its new chief executive a $2 million base salary as well as an $18.5 million bonus.
Alan Mulally also will receive 4 million stock options priced at the grant date's current fair-market value of $8.28 along with 600,000 restricted stock units, according to the regulatory filing.
Of the $18.5 million up-front payment, $7.5 million is considered a hiring bonus while $11 million was given to offset performance and stock-option awards Mulally forfeited at Boeing Co. (BA:Boeing Co.
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10:04am 11/14/2008

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BA 41.97, -1.19, -2.8%) , his former employer.

Mulally also has the option to live in temporary housing in Southeast Michigan for the first two years and is eligble for relocation assistance. He will be required, for security reasons, to use the company aircraft for travel. On personal business trips, he's allowed to bring friends and family at Ford's expense.
Earlier this week, Chairman Bill Ford (F:Ford Motor Company
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F 1.84, -0.06, -3.2%) handed over the chief's reins to the aerospace executive, as the struggling automaker aims to quicken the pace of its massive "Way Forward" overhaul. See full story.
As Boeing's second-highest paid executive, Mulally received more than $9.9 million in cash and stock in 2005, which was twice as much as he earned in the prior year.
Rival General Motors Corp. (GM:General Motors Corporation
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GM 3.05, +0.10, +3.4%) paid Chief Executive Rick Wagoner a salary of $2.2 million in 2005, with a total payout package worth $5.48 million. That's about half his compensation from 2004. Wagoner's base salary has been the same since 2003.
Shawn Langlois is a reporter for MarketWatch, and the editor of its community message boards

thats 42,307,69 a week for Fords Ceo

1057.69 dollars per hour

[forged alloy]

thats 42,307,69 a week for Fords Ceo

1057.69 dollars per hour

And he will be worth every penny if he can pull them out of decades of mismanagement.

Don't join the class envy circuit.

[jrbenny]

And he will be worth every penny if he can pull them out of decades of mismanagement.

Don't join the class envy circuit.
Don't ask for my tax dollars to recover from years of mismanagment.

Suck it up. Fix it or fail.

Get your damn hand out of my pocket.

[JRINJAX]

Don't ask for my tax dollars to recover from years of mismanagment.

Suck it up. Fix it or fail.

Get your damn hand out of my pocket.
Why do I want to support a car company that advertises in the Gay magazines? Why do I want to support a Radical Union that supports everything I am against?
They are already getting 25 billion of my money.

[frostman]

The Big 2.25s problems started way before current management took over. And yes, the UAW is a big part of the problem, however the companies did themselves no favors by building what was basically rolling piles of junk for so long. American cars were awful for a long long time, and now when they're finally catching up in quality and design, at least GM and to some extent Ford is, the economy takes a dive. Let them file bankruptcy, get out from under the union contracts, and yes, let them lay off all those workers. The number of workers these companies have when their market share is so low is laughable. They simply don't need all those workers.

[the mojo]

Any way you look at it the Big Three will need some help.

That one in ten effect on the American work force is something to study.
http://www.cargroup.org/

Was scoping out Bloomberg.com today and came across Charles Grassley's comments on what he thinks these CEO should do. Lead by example.
Rick Wagner pay to zero.
Alan Mulally pay to zero.
Robert Nardelli pay to zero. (He said he would'nt take a salary till Chrysler was profitable.)

If the Fed's want to just give our $$$ away like its water then there should be a strings attached condition. Thats not enough.



Unions: Line workers 16-18 max based on senority.
Unions: Skilled labor 18- 22 max based on senority.

Health care shared half and half.
Pensions paid out based on the performance of the individual companies.


These are trying times but you just can't let them fold nor can you give them an excuse to continue to feed off the company t*t.


And this is based only on the 25 Billion they intend to give away.

[smokin68]

And he will be worth every penny if he can pull them out of decades of mismanagement.

Don't join the class envy circuit.

Yeah, but will he be held accountable for failure? Noone else has....big F'ing golden parachute, a real incentive for top management.

As far as the japanese automakers go, they were selling cars for below cost in the 70's and 80's, and that's why the big T(h)ree asked for tariffs etc. They couldn't compete then. Now, after 30 yrs of not improving their quality on the same level as the Japs, they want a bailout. Can't help you..sorry. I agree with Jrbenny and the others who say let them sink.

[hvacpope]

4 months or so ago I was driving home listening to Michael Savage he said “be aware of what the Bush administration will do in their last 6 months”, Bush is out of control in his quest to become the worst president we ever had, he is giving away our dollars like there is no tomorrow and there is nothing we can do about it, I’m not saying Obama is going to be any different or maybe worst but for gods sake this idiot call himself a republican, what a freaking stupid moron.

[sysint]

Ford to pay new CEO $2M salary, $18.5M bonus

By Shawn Langlois, MarketWatch
Last update: 4:49 p.m. EDT Sept. 8, 2006SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- Ford Motor Co., in the middle of a wrenching restructuring that already has led to plant shutdowns and thousands of job cuts, said Friday that it will pay its new chief executive a $2 million base salary as well as an $18.5 million bonus....

thats 42,307,69 a week for Fords Ceo

1057.69 dollars per hour Hmmm. sounds similar to the cost of union lawyer. Usually they work in packs of 5. Either way it is obscene for the work.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Ford to pay new CEO $2M salary, $18.5M bonus

By Shawn Langlois, MarketWatch
Last update: 4:49 p.m. EDT Sept. 8, 2006SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- Ford Motor Co., in the middle of a wrenching restructuring that already has led to plant shutdowns and thousands of job cuts, said Friday that it will pay its new chief executive a $2 million base salary as well as an $18.5 million bonus.
Alan Mulally also will receive 4 million stock options priced at the grant date's current fair-market value of $8.28 along with 600,000 restricted stock units, according to the regulatory filing.
Of the $18.5 million up-front payment, $7.5 million is considered a hiring bonus while $11 million was given to offset performance and stock-option awards Mulally forfeited at Boeing Co. (BA:Boeing Co.
News, chart, profile, more
Last: 41.97-1.19-2.76%

10:04am 11/14/2008

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BA 41.97, -1.19, -2.8%) , his former employer.

Mulally also has the option to live in temporary housing in Southeast Michigan for the first two years and is eligble for relocation assistance. He will be required, for security reasons, to use the company aircraft for travel. On personal business trips, he's allowed to bring friends and family at Ford's expense.
Earlier this week, Chairman Bill Ford (F:Ford Motor Company
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Last: 1.84-0.06-3.16%

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F 1.84, -0.06, -3.2%) handed over the chief's reins to the aerospace executive, as the struggling automaker aims to quicken the pace of its massive "Way Forward" overhaul. See full story.
As Boeing's second-highest paid executive, Mulally received more than $9.9 million in cash and stock in 2005, which was twice as much as he earned in the prior year.
Rival General Motors Corp. (GM:General Motors Corporation
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GM 3.05, +0.10, +3.4%) paid Chief Executive Rick Wagoner a salary of $2.2 million in 2005, with a total payout package worth $5.48 million. That's about half his compensation from 2004. Wagoner's base salary has been the same since 2003.
Shawn Langlois is a reporter for MarketWatch, and the editor of its community message boards

thats 42,307,69 a week for Fords Ceo

1057.69 dollars per hour

It is easy to get excited about someone that gets more than I do... While you are posting CEO payrols; try GE, Goldman Sachs, Westinghouse, etc...

There are only a handful of folks in the world that have the ability to run a company as big as GM... I realize that sounds strange, but it is true. Read a few business journals (Forbes, Fortune, The Economist for a few years, you will see of what I speak).

And honestly, if I were one of those folks... I would not work for wages... Why bust my butt at that level, deal with the tremendous stress and liability, and sacrifice my family and personal life... for wages... NO, if I am going to run GM, you will pay me what it is worth. If you want to pay me wages, I will take a wages job and when I punch the timeclock... I will spend the evening on H-talk... :D

Those Corporate CEO's live in a different world (figuratively speaking) than we do... Comparing their income to ours is just a political ploy to create discention and accomplish goals of a power hungry leader. I truly hope the posters at this forum are wise enough to see that...

[ga-hvac-tech]

Yeah, but will he be held accountable for failure? Noone else has....big F'ing golden parachute, a real incentive for top management.

As far as the japanese automakers go, they were selling cars for below cost in the 70's and 80's, and that's why the big T(h)ree asked for tariffs etc. They couldn't compete then. Now, after 30 yrs of not improving their quality on the same level as the Japs, they want a bailout. Can't help you..sorry. I agree with Jrbenny and the others who say let them sink.

I am not arguing with you, but could you document this... My grey cells seem to remember that as a lie (I was alive, in adult workforce, and an auto consumer back then)... THX!

[ga-hvac-tech]

No matter how we look at it, there are a few things that will not go away:

1) One cannot run a company when the product sales will not pay the bills;
2) One cannot sell the product when others make a better product and sell it for less;
3) When one refuses to make a profit (whatever the choices that are necessary), it hurts everyone;
4) Governments NEVER do things as efficiently as private enterprise;
5) We have lived too high for too long on credit... who in their right mind really thought it would go on forever???

There is a belt tightening out there; the wise folks will roll with it. The end result will be a leaner and pro-work ethic in the country. Those that fight it probably will become the victim of it.

And those that whine to government for a free ride will end up the loosers.

[smokin68]

I am not arguing with you, but could you document this... My grey cells seem to remember that as a lie (I was alive, in adult workforce, and an auto consumer back then)... THX!

I'll see....doubtful that's linked anywhere....see if you can find it's a lie/myth.THX.

[ga-hvac-tech]

I'll see....doubtful that's linked anywhere....see if you can find it's a lie/myth.THX.

Might be tricky to find news stories from 10-20 years before the internet... for both sides of this discussion...

I do remember that there was a lot of whining back in the late 1970's about lower wages paid to workers in auto manufacturing plants in America, run by foreign companies.

I toured Hyundai's plant last spring in Montgomery Al. I have been through plants before, so I paid more attention to the workers than the geewhiz part of how cool it it to watch a car being built. While I do not live in AL, I saw a lot of folks that looked happy about their jobs.

I suspect there are news stories out there about one or two folks that do not like this or that... but what I saw looked like a clean nice place to work. Is Detroit like this???? Seriously, I do not know. I have been through a GM plant here in Atlanta, it was not as nice as the Hyundai plant.

[JRINJAX]

I toured Hyundai's plant last spring in Montgomery Al. I have been through plants before, so I paid more attention to the workers than the geewhiz part of how cool it it to watch a car being built. While I do not live in AL, I saw a lot of folks that looked happy about their jobs.

I suspect there are news stories out there about one or two folks that do not like this or that... but what I saw looked like a clean nice place to work. Is Detroit like this???? Seriously, I do not know. I have been through a GM plant here in Atlanta, it was not as nice as the Hyundai plant.

That is one reason that I always fly Southwest Air Lines if possible. I enjoy the thought of flying with a company where 99% of the employees love their jobs.

The Southwest employees also respect the job their CEO is doing and are thankful for him. They told me they are proud of the fact their company has all of its equipment paid for completely.

You don't find that on any of the Union carriers.

[ga-hvac-tech]

That is one reason that I always fly Southwest Air Lines if possible. I enjoy the thought of flying with a company where 99% of the employees love their jobs.

The Southwest employees also respect the job their CEO is doing and are thankful for him. They told me they are proud of the fact their company has all of its equipment paid for completely.

You don't find that on any of the Union carriers.

I think the difference is the folks at Hyundai and at Southwest Airlines are thankful to have a quality company to work for... rather than greedy childish folks that think life is all about $$$.

Funny how the latter types are the easiest to lie to... :confused:

[RoBoTeq]

The gap between UAW and non- union workers is not that large as a base pay.

The average UAW line worker makes between 26 to 28 bucks. Skilled labor is more.

A line worker a Honda is at 24.25 but has got a bonus every year for 21 straight years as of 2007.
The difference between is of course easy. Health care and pension.
Another difference is that the cost of supporting the union is not burdening Honda.