Aaah, the lib mindset...

[bootlen]

is like a book...easy to read. Looks like Iran thought W was running again, too.

http://www.military.com/news/article/iran-sees-obama-win-as-a-bush-defeat.html

[cehs]

I still have to wonder what DEALS Obama made with our enemys while traveling overseas prior to the elections. :eek:
He CLAIMED he was working on better relations, but I think there were DEALS made that should have been avoided. :(

Are you suspicious?

[acmanko]

Hate to pop your bubble, but Iran is a CONSERVATIVE country. Ran by CONSERVATIVE Muslim clerics. Be thankful we threw off the yoke of CONSERVATIVE Christians:eek:

[bootlen]

Hate to pop your bubble, but Iran is a CONSERVATIVE country. Ran by CONSERVATIVE Muslim clerics. Be thankful we threw off the yoke of CONSERVATIVE Christians:eek:

Not exactly. They are a cultic government. Get over it.

[cehs]

Hate to pop your bubble, but Iran is a CONSERVATIVE country. Ran by CONSERVATIVE Muslim clerics. Be thankful we threw off the yoke of CONSERVATIVE Christians:eek:

Ill bite, WHY should I be thankful we threw off the YOKE of conservative Christians?
I have NEVER considered Christianity a yoke, Christ promised freedom from sin, how is that a yoke?

[bootlen]

For AC, anything greater than breathing is a yoke. And I'm not sure who reminds him to breathe.

[acmanko]

Ill bite, WHY should I be thankful we threw off the YOKE of conservative Christians?
I have NEVER considered Christianity a yoke, Christ promised freedom from sin, how is that a yoke? its a yoke when fundamentalist practicing in his name try to impose their will on others

[bootlen]

AC gets daily visits from the little old Baptist ladies down the street. They put a gun to his head theatening his life if he doesn't repent.:rolleyes:

[acmanko]

AC gets daily visits from the little old Baptist ladies down the street. They put a gun to his head theatening his life if he doesn't repent.:rolleyes:
Lately, its been pairs a Mormons. But after 30 minutes on the porch , they leave, never to return.:mad:

[cehs]

its a yoke when fundamentalist practicing in his name try to impose their will on others

Do you mean that when gays and lesbians want US to accept and embrace their actions that THEY are placing a yoke on the rest of us because we do NOT want our children to accept or become like them? :eek:

[acmanko]

Do you mean that when gays and lesbians want US to accept and embrace their actions that THEY are placing a yoke on the rest of us because we do NOT want our children to accept or become like them? :eek:yes I do, nothing hypocritical about me:eek:

[hvacker]

I still have to wonder what DEALS Obama made with our enemys while traveling overseas prior to the elections. :eek:
He CLAIMED he was working on better relations, but I think there were DEALS made that should have been avoided. :(

Are you suspicious?

You have absolutely no way of knowing anything you posted. When people believe things without evidence they need more meds.
What makes you think DEALS were made is called paranoia unless all you were doing was an attempt to damage a man's character.
But most know paranoia is the engine that drives right wing nuts anyway.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Lately, its been pairs a Mormons. But after 30 minutes on the porch , they leave, never to return.:mad:

Takes you 30 minutes... Takes me about 30 seconds to politely explain that I am not interested... they are all smiles and thank me for my time... and do not come back.

You need a life; then you would not spend 30 minutes on the porch talking to folks... :D

[ga-hvac-tech]

Whoops, double post...

[ga-hvac-tech]

You have absolutely no way of knowing anything you posted. When people believe things without evidence they need more meds.

Lessee if I understand this; If five times in a row, I see a specific behavior and a resulting specific behavior; the same cause and effect... then on the sixth time I see the 'cause behavior' I should not suspect or expect the effect behavior... and if I do I need to be on meds...

That sounds like sticking my head in the sand to me.

PS--Meds are for folks that cannot handle reality.


What makes you think DEALS were made is called paranoia unless all you were doing was an attempt to damage a man's character.
But most know paranoia is the engine that drives right wing nuts anyway.

What one person calls paranoia; another calls common sense.

Again, why should I have to suffer because another is un-educated, in-experienced, or naive?

[tunnel_rat]

Again, why should I have to suffer because another is un-educated, in-experienced, or naive?



That's what I want to know. :mad:

But the Obama groupies have spoken.....:confused:

[ga-hvac-tech]

That's what I want to know. :mad:

But the Obama groupies have spoken.....:confused:

One of the founding fathers said that the free society they made would only work in a Christian and Moral society... well we lost on both of those...

SOOO

If we are to take the statement of one of the founders of this great nation seriously, then we have lost the way our nation was meant to work...

Shame, we have a bunch of idiots today that are too smart to listen to wisdom. They will learn...

But I agree, why should I have to suffer along the way???

[acmanko]

One of the founding fathers said that the free society they made would only work in a Christian and Moral society... well we lost on both of those...

SOOO

If we are to take the statement of one of the founders of this great nation seriously, then we have lost the way our nation was meant to work...

Shame, we have a bunch of idiots today that are too smart to listen to wisdom. They will learn...

But I agree, why should I have to suffer along the way??? You don't, the ocean is about an hour and a half away from you, flee while you still can. Haiti needs help

[tunnel_rat]

You don't, the ocean is about an hour and a half away from you, flee while you still can. Haiti needs help

No need for that.

Haven't you heard? Barry's gonna take care of that too...

The world is now at peace.......:D


Aaahhhhhhhhhh..................................... ...........................................

[ga-hvac-tech]

You don't, the ocean is about an hour and a half away from you, flee while you still can. Haiti needs help

I wish the ocean WAS only an hour and a half away... alas it is 5+ hours away... too far to take an afternoon trip... :(

But I have no plans to leave my country just because a few un-educated and immature naive kids elected a goofball.

They did that in 1976, and again in 1992. We lived through it and we will live through it again.

And after a few months of that goofball not fulfilling his promises, folks will learn... and in 2 years we will have a GOP congress again and can get back to fixing the country.

Freedom is worth too much to just run away...

[bootlen]

Lately, its been pairs a Mormons. But after 30 minutes on the porch , they leave, never to return.:mad:

Mormonism is a cult, too.

[ChristopherNJ]

[QUOTE=ga-hvac-tech;2038027]I wish the ocean WAS only an hour and a half away... alas it is 5+ hours away... too far to take an afternoon trip... :(

But I have no plans to leave my country just because a few un-educated and immature naive kids elected a goofball.

QUOTE]

See thats where I think you are wrong. McCain could not carry the republican leaning states that Bush carried. Its not college kids that won this election. Its not blacks. In fact union voters only supported Obama 59%.


He lost his own party. Thats a shame. I blame Bush and Palin.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Mormonism is a cult, too.

I do not care for the faith either, I think there are a lot of places they do not hold fast to Scripture... (And I am not calling you out on your viewpoint). However;

In our country we have freedom of (not from) religion. That means we are all free to worship as we please, as long as we do not step on another's freedom to worship (or not worship). BUT

Casually seeing a different form of worship is not a violation of anyone's freedoms... and anyone who thinks it is, is IMO a spoiled child that is looking for a free ride from an attorney.

[bootlen]

I do not care for the faith either, I think there are a lot of places they do not hold fast to Scripture... (And I am not calling you out on your viewpoint). However;

In our country we have freedom of (not from) religion. That means we are all free to worship as we please, as long as we do not step on another's freedom to worship (or not worship). BUT

Casually seeing a different form of worship is not a violation of anyone's freedoms... and anyone who thinks it is, is IMO a spoiled child that is looking for a free ride from an attorney.

Yeah, no argument there. I was addressing AC re a previous post this thread. My post was meant to be more specific than general (although it is also accurate in the general sense as well).

[ga-hvac-tech]

[quote=ga-hvac-tech;2038027]I wish the ocean WAS only an hour and a half away... alas it is 5+ hours away... too far to take an afternoon trip... :(

But I have no plans to leave my country just because a few un-educated and immature naive kids elected a goofball.

QUOTE]

See thats where I think you are wrong. McCain could not carry the republican leaning states that Bush carried. Its not college kids that won this election. Its not blacks. In fact union voters only supported Obama 59%.


He lost his own party. Thats a shame. I blame Bush and Palin.

It appears you still do not get it Chris; A true conservative believes (only) in the principles, because they know the principles are the best (some would say the only) route to an honorable and clean life. Following a trend, being on the winning team, reaping the rewards of a carefully crafted plan... that is all secondary to believing and following a set of principles. A true conservative understands the principles, and follows them; it is called honor... something the volunteers that give their all in the military understand.

[geepo12]

Mormonism is a cult, too.

all religions are cults..yes, even yours.

[ga-hvac-tech]

all religions are cults..yes, even yours.

How about we say that all religions have the potential to be practiced as cults if one chooses to...

Christianity has this strange and different thingy: Having a real, live, two way, relationship with the One the faith calls God. Do any other religions have that? And do any other religions say their God is Love?

[bootlen]

Well, geepo, I learned a long time ago to not follow someone who is lost. And YOU, my lost friend, are also uninformed.

[geepo12]

Well, geepo, I learned a long time ago to not follow someone who is lost. And YOU, my lost friend, are also uninformed.

neither lost nor uninformed....It amuses me how a person of one religion can call another religion a cult..close minded much?

[ga-hvac-tech]

Well, geepo, I learned a long time ago to not follow someone who is lost. And YOU, my lost friend, are also uninformed.

I guess GeePo has not had a 'Damascus road' experience with God... if he had, he would know the difference... I hope when it happens he understands.

[bootlen]

neither lost nor uninformed....It amuses me how a person of one religion can call another religion a cult..close minded much?

When one is correct, one can afford to be closed minded.

[x-wrenchturner]

When one is correct, one can afford to be closed minded.

LOL!!
This one says it all.
:rolleyes:

[Focko]

Hmm . . . there is no use for discussion if the moderator, and loudest speaker, has that kind of mindset. That's why I usually avoid ARP.

At any rate, turns out Iran's not so happy with Obama after he spoke his mind about Iran's nuclear program. So much for having all liberals all figured out.

[x-wrenchturner]

When one is correct, one can afford to be closed minded.

What did Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Jim Jones, Charles Manson, and the Heaven’s Gate followers all have in common?

They all "knew” they were correct also.

[sline-dawg]

What did Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Jim Jones, Charles Manson, and the Heaven’s Gate followers all have in common?

They all "knew” they were correct also.


We are all bio-degradable.....;)

[Focko]

Love your quote, sline dawg, "Remember; if you are only right or only left winged, you will only fly in circles."

And by the way I usually vote Dem but I think we had a good Republican candidate this time around.

[sline-dawg]

Thanks Focko.....But I must give credit to Robo on that one.... I did ask for his ok....:)


Cool avatar bro..... might have seen that around.....;)

[the mojo]

is like a book...easy to read. Looks like Iran thought W was running again, too.

http://www.military.com/news/article/iran-sees-obama-win-as-a-bush-defeat.html

When you dig through all the goop your eyes should have drawn to what the Ayatollah Ali Khamenei says and discard the rest of the info.

"No thaw in U.S.-Iran relations should be expected no matter who wins the election,saying Iran hatred for the U.S. runs deep and differences between the two nations go beyond a few political issues".

Is this a cult leader oh yes. The only thing in our favor right now is that Iran's economy is one hundred times worse than ours.

[bootlen]

What did Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Jim Jones, Charles Manson, and the Heaven’s Gate followers all have in common?

They all "knew” they were correct also.

Turns out they weren't, though, huh?.

[bootlen]

Hmm . . . there is no use for discussion if the moderator, and loudest speaker, has that kind of mindset. That's why I usually avoid ARP.



So just to please you, I should entertain accepting falsehoods?

[ga-hvac-tech]

Anybody care to make a wager (monopoly money) as to the answer to these two questions:

1) How long before BHO starts hedging on what he promised in the campaign? and
2) How long until the media turns on him and starts harassing him for hedging on what he promised in the campaign?

[bootlen]

The first one is already true.

Second one...should be interesting to watch.

[Focko]

Well, bootlen, I guess you have nothing more to learn in life--so why do you need to prove to the rest of us that you know it all?

I believe that even if I live to be 200 years old, if I'm not still learning, I'm not worth much. My philosophy, though not everybody's.

Shall we assume that the ultra-conservative mindset is that "I know it all and there's nothing I have to learn, so I will prove that to everybody so that I can prove it to myself" Otherwise why are you wasting your time here?

[bootlen]

Well, bootlen, I guess you have nothing more to learn in life--so why do you need to prove to the rest of us that you know it all?


Well, Focko, I might ask you the same question as it pertains to YOUR opinions.

The thing is, I believe what I say, as I'm sure the same is true for you. Sure I can be proven wrong. Have been in the past. But it seems that since I've been a Christian, I am not allowed an opinion that I stand by. I am expected to be wishy-washy.

Well, it just does not work that way, Focko. My opinion is something I believe and stand on until I'm proven wrong.

[glennac]

When one is correct, one can afford to be closed minded.

Hey boots, that's a little heavy there. Perhaps you could enlighten us as to which denomination is the correct one so one doesn't have to waste a lot of time searching for the best church to belong too?

Maybe you could even guide robo to the right path because I think he might need a little help there. Just kidding robo don't spin out on me here.:) Tomorrow is another day, I think.

[bootlen]

Hey boots, that's a little heavy there. Perhaps you could enlighten us as to which denomination is the correct one so one doesn't have to waste a lot of time searching for the best church to belong too?


Whichever local church believes in the inerrant Word of God, and allows Scripture to interpret Scripture. Has not to do with denom so much as what comes out of the local pulpits.

Doctrine from Rome is perverted. But there are some priests who teach accurately the Word. Southern Baptist Convention is pretty accurate. But there are some local SBC preachers I wouldn't let my dog listen to. See what I'm saying?

[bootlen]

Hey boots, that's a little heavy there.

And, BTW, truth is heavy. And obnoxious. And painful. And insulting. And offensive.

But it is also exhileratingly liberating.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Whichever local church believes in the inerrant Word of God, and allows Scripture to interpret Scripture. Has not to do with denom so much as what comes out of the local pulpits.

Doctrine from Rome is perverted. But there are some priests who teach accurately the Word. Southern Baptist Convention is pretty accurate. But there are some local SBC preachers I wouldn't let my dog listen to. See what I'm saying?

Well said Boots!

I would add that faith in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, and salvation from our sins through faith in that same Christ.

Also, in relation to the second paragraph in bold above; I would not limit that to SBC preachers... :eek:

[ga-hvac-tech]

And, BTW, truth is heavy. And obnoxious. And painful. And insulting. And offensive.

But it is also exhileratingly liberating.

You and I are on the same page here also!

When one tries to understand life and God from a human viewpoint, they are already lost! When one learns to see life and God through God's eyes (Scripture), one learns a lot more truth!

Looking through man's eyes can be the first sentence of your post; seeing through God's eyes is IMO the second sentence of your post!

[Focko]

Well, Focko, I might ask you the same question as it pertains to YOUR opinions.

The thing is, I believe what I say, as I'm sure the same is true for you. Sure I can be proven wrong. Have been in the past. But it seems that since I've been a Christian, I am not allowed an opinion that I stand by. I am expected to be wishy-washy.

Well, it just does not work that way, Focko. My opinion is something I believe and stand on until I'm proven wrong.

You sure have put a heavy burden on yourself.

I believe no human can claim to know all that's right and wrong. And to imagine yourself to be that authority--that's heavy.

[bootlen]

You sure have put a heavy burden on yourself.

I believe no human can claim to know all that's right and wrong. And to imagine yourself to be that authority--that's heavy.

Not MY burden. God's. And I never said I know all that's right and wrong. At least, I don't think I did. Could you paste that for me if I did? I simply said I believe and stand on what I believe until proven wrong. If you cannot do the same, you are easily led astray.

I would pity you but...well...it's your choice.

[ga-hvac-tech]

You sure have put a heavy burden on yourself.

I believe no human can claim to know all that's right and wrong. And to imagine yourself to be that authority--that's heavy.

IMO one should be careful of thinking they 'know it all'... One only needs to reference a few chapters in the book of Genesis in the Bible, and read about "... the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil..." Something God did NOT want us trying to do... but we try anyway... to our own peril... :eek:

BTW: Post #4000... :cool:

[bootlen]

Also, in relation to the second paragraph in bold above; I would not limit that to SBC preachers... :eek:

Absolutely agree. I was just trying to provide a measure of comparison. Any pulpit from which the Word of God is not taught to be inerrant is a pulpit of Satan.

Not so difficult to know for one who is earnest in his desire to know truth.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Not MY burden. God's. And I never said I know all that's right and wrong. At least, I don't think I did. Could you paste that for me if I did? I simply said I believe and stand on what I believe until proven wrong. If you cannot do the same, you are easily led astray.

I would pity you but...well...it's your choice.

See the bold type above: THAT, is the beauty of a relationship with God! HE (not myself) carries the burden!

[bootlen]

See the bold type above: THAT, is the beauty of a relationship with God! HE (not myself) carries the burden!

Therein lies that liberty.

[Focko]

Pity me all you want. No skin off my neck. That's pretty condescending.
My parents made God's work their life, their occupation. They were missionaries in India. So for you to pity me is like a fart in the wind.

[bootlen]

Pity me all you want. No skin off my neck. That's pretty condescending.
My parents made God's work their life, their occupation. They were missionaries in India. So for you to pity me is like a fart in the wind.

What's your parents' life work have to do with YOUR spiritual status? Or whether I pity you...which I don't. I DID say that.

[Focko]

I was going to make a rebuttal, but

Bootlen, you have made Christ your life and I admire that. Christ is my life, though I don't see my mission the same way you see yours.

I meant no offense. God bless you.

[bootlen]

Sure I did. He also taught truth.

[RoBoTeq]

all religions are cults..yes, even yours.
Please explain this comment. By what definition are you referring to as a cult?

[RoBoTeq]

neither lost nor uninformed....It amuses me how a person of one religion can call another religion a cult..close minded much?
Boy, doesn't take much to amuse you:rolleyes:

Closed minded? No. Actually, many of us who understand what constitutes a cult are quite open minded about religions. Me? I have yet to find a religious organization that I don't feel is tainted by greed and a need for some sort of power, but that's just me. That does not mean that all religous organizations are cults.

[RoBoTeq]

When one is correct, one can afford to be closed minded.
Even if this is true, you can't afford it;)

[RoBoTeq]

Thanks Focko.....But I must give credit to Robo on that one.... I did ask for his ok....:)


Cool avatar bro..... might have seen that around.....;)
I'm glad to see that saying put to good use. If no one can find an origin for that saying, I am claiming it to be mine as an original;).

Here's another one for ya; "originality is the art of concealing your source".

[RoBoTeq]

And, BTW, truth is heavy. And obnoxious. And painful. And insulting. And offensive.

But it is also exhileratingly liberating.
No it's not. And that's the truth:cool:

[RoBoTeq]

You sure have put a heavy burden on yourself.

I believe no human can claim to know all that's right and wrong. And to imagine yourself to be that authority--that's heavy.
I'm gonna agree with you on this one.

One who claims to know all is one who has accepted the gift from Satan, not Jesus.

[RoBoTeq]

Not MY burden. God's. And I never said I know all that's right and wrong. At least, I don't think I did. Could you paste that for me if I did? I simply said I believe and stand on what I believe until proven wrong. If you cannot do the same, you are easily led astray.

I would pity you but...well...it's your choice.
If you won't open your mind, at least open your heart so that God can fill you with truth rather then your making that determination based on Satan's gift of knowledge to us.

[RoBoTeq]

See the bold type above: THAT, is the beauty of a relationship with God! HE (not myself) carries the burden!
I remember that song;

He ain't heavy,
He's my diety....
And on we go....

[ga-hvac-tech]

I'm gonna agree with you on this one.

One who claims to know all is one who has accepted the gift from Satan, not Jesus.

There is a Scripture somewhere in the new testament (if you want the reference, I will find it), that suggests that Christians have 'the mind of Christ'... so long as they live by faith.

So maybe there is a different dynamic here that goes beyond human understanding???

[ga-hvac-tech]

I remember that song;

He ain't heavy,
He's my diety....
And on we go....

THAT appears to me to be similar to a recently elected spinmeister's talents... :D

[Mr Bill]

There is a Scripture somewhere in the new testament that suggests that Christians have 'the mind of Christ'... so long as they live by faith.

Maybe this one? :D

1 Corinthians 1:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=1&verse=10&version=9&context=verse) Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

[acmanko]

Maybe this one? :D

1 Corinthians 1:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=1&verse=10&version=9&context=verse) Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
That is directed to a bunch who believe in personal interpretation of the Bible. Which means that every person, secular, as we are, will read something different.

[Mr Bill]

That is directed to a bunch who believe in personal interpretation of the Bible. Which means that every person, secular, as we are, will read something different.


No, not personal interpretation actually he is talking to believers as most of what God the Bible pertains to and even some believers read scripture different "believe me" so it's not only secular, and believers understand what he is saying, if you not a believer it don't matter, there's not but two sides of a fence right?

You know as a believer, I do care about non-believers destiny, if not I would not be much of a Christian, but you know God feeds the birds but he don't stuff it down there throats, they have to make some effort to seek food, so after being witnessed to they have to seek the Lord. I do two things, I tell folks my testimony and I let folks know what Jesus has done for Mr. Bill since I gave my life to him, trust me my life has been a ton better since I have trusted in Jesus Christ, some may call it coincidence that's fine, I call it Jesus Christ.

’No eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no mind has imagined what God has prepared for those who love him.’ But it was to us that God revealed these things by His Spirit. For His Spirit searches out everything and shows us God’s deep secrets” (1 Corinthians 2:9-10, NLT).

[ga-hvac-tech]

That was not the Scripture I was looking for, but it is a good one!

And I like the life Mr Bill lives, it is a witness to the changes Christ will make in folks when we choose to trust and follow.

I need to go out and attend to a few customers, and I have a Bible Study group this evening (currently, I attend 3 per week; plus Sunday morning). I will try to find the Scripture I mentioned and post it when I can.

Meanwhile, lets all pray for each other's work load (or the lack there-of).

[RoBoTeq]

There is a Scripture somewhere in the new testament (if you want the reference, I will find it), that suggests that Christians have 'the mind of Christ'... so long as they live by faith.

So maybe there is a different dynamic here that goes beyond human understanding???
This would fall in line with the way I determine whether or not my understanding of a passage is accurate. I basically do as much study of the entomology and history of the passage as I can and then pray for Satan's influence to be taken from me and for me to understand the truth of the passage. What I end up with is a "feeling" of the truth of the passage.

[acmanko]

This would fall in line with the way I determine whether or not my understanding of a passage is accurate. I basically do as much study of the entomology and history of the passage as I can and then pray for Satan's influence to be taken from me and for me to understand the truth of the passage. What I end up with is a "feeling" of the truth of the passage.
What if Satan refuses and corrupts your thinking, like he did last week?

[RoBoTeq]

No, not personal interpretation actually he is talking to believers as most of what God the Bible pertains to and even some believers read scripture different "believe me" so it's not only secular, and believers understand what he is saying, if you not a believer it don't matter, there's not but two sides of a fence right?

You know as a believer, I do care about non-believers destiny, if not I would not be much of a Christian, but you know God feeds the birds but he don't stuff it down there throats, they have to make some effort to seek food, so after being witnessed to they have to seek the Lord. I do two things, I tell folks my testimony and I let folks know what Jesus has done for Mr. Bill since I gave my life to him, trust me my life has been a ton better since I have trusted in Jesus Christ, some may call it coincidence that's fine, I call it Jesus Christ.

’No eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no mind has imagined what God has prepared for those who love him.’ But it was to us that God revealed these things by His Spirit. For His Spirit searches out everything and shows us God’s deep secrets” (1 Corinthians 2:9-10, NLT).
I need to go with mancows thoughts on this one. Corinthians were Greeks who had been used to making determinations of faith based on newly taught philosophies. Corinthians were among the first dedicated "thinkers". It makes sense that Paul would speak to Corinthians in philosophical tones that they would better understand and accept.

[RoBoTeq]

What if Satan refuses and corrupts your thinking, like he did last week?
Satan cannot refuse God. God's influence over Satan is greater then Satan's influence over us, that's why He's God and Satan is not;). Satan is a wannabe.

What did Satan refuse last week?

[Mr Bill]

I need to go with mancows thoughts on this one.

That's no problem with me, I sure would hate it if everyone agreed with me,
the world sure would be boring. :D

[acmanko]

Lucky for me, I didn't have to go back but 5 posts to see what I was thinking at the time.:)

[acmanko]

Satan cannot refuse God. God's influence over Satan is greater then Satan's influence over us, that's why He's God and Satan is not;). Satan is a wannabe.

What did Satan refuse last week?

On one of your rants last week, you sounded like Lucifer, fighting with an underling demon(Bootlen).:rolleyes:

[ga-hvac-tech]

On one of your rants last week, you sounded like Lucifer, fighting with an underling demon(Bootlen).:rolleyes:

Now that would definitely be a statement of deception! Both Robo and Bootsie are Christians, and as such cannot be indwelt with a demon... they can be deceived into believing a lie that is not from God, but they cannot be indwelt with a demon...

Hmmm, I might have to alter that to believing many lies if I keep Robin in this paragraph... LOL :D

Christ will not share residence with a demon, and since Christ says our bodies (well, or beings) are His temple, then a demon could not be there also.

OK, back on the previous post about the mind of Christ:

Look at 1 Cor 2:12-16

V12-13 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is form God, that we might know the things freely given us by God; which things we also speak, not in words taught by Human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
John's comment: Note that this spirit is like a presence that indwells my mind and emotions (my soul). It is there and guides me when I choose to seek it and listen to it. Note also that this Spirit is ONLY in a Christian, it comes only AFTER one chooses Christ. A person that has not chosen Christianity does not have the Spirit, and as such does not have a first hand knowledge of this indwelling Spirit, and probably does not understand.

V14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised (understood).
John's comment: The reference to a natural man is a reference to a person that is operating from their own independent ability to think out things. It is my opinion that this Scripture says that in our own (independent, mental and/or emotional) strength, we cannot understand the things of God.

V15 But he who is spiritual appraises (understands) all things, yet he himself is appraised (understood) by no man.
John's comment: The person that chooses to seek God's Spirit will have an understanding of things that a person that does not seek that Spirit will not have. And only other folks that have sought that Spirit will also. In simple words: Only Christians that are seeking God will understand, and generally, only other Christians seeking God will understand what the first one said.

Here is the Scripture I was referring to in the post earlier:
V16 For who has know the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct Him (God), But we have the mind of Christ.
John's comment: Not even believers (Christians) know God/Father's mind... and if God's children (Christians) are not qualified to tell God what to do, then unbelievers sure as heck are not qualified to either... But we do have the mind of God's Son, Jesus Christ. Kinda like being the child of POTUS; you would have an inside to things going on...

Reference to that last sentence of V16 above:
Galatins 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lies in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh (in this biological body) I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me.
John's comment: Spiritually, us Christians died, and Christ is the life source within us... amazing, but there it is in print in the Bible!!! Talk about a relationship with God!!! How could one get any closer to the creator of the universe than to have the Spirit of his Son indwell me??? :cool:

And V21 is kinda interesting also: I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law (keeping the law in my strength), then Christ died needlessly.
John's comment: This verse puts to bed the idea that God accepts or rejects me based on my choices of behavior... Now I am NOT saying one can sin freely... rather God does not walk away from me when I goof up.
Also understand that if I consciously choose to sin, I will pay the price for it... :(

There is some interesting stuff in earlier vs in Gal ch 2, but that is another post.

[Mr Bill]

Nice post John it really Blessed me tonight. http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l286/mrbillpro/yes.gif
Thanks!
Mr. Bill

[bootlen]

Yes. Very good post, GATECH. However, I would remind you that the Holy Spirit is a "He" and not an "it". He is the 3rd Person of the Triune God.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Yes. Very good post, GATECH. However, I would remind you that the Holy Spirit is a "He" and not an "it". He is the 3rd Person of the Triune God.

I agree, in Scripture the Spirit is referred to as 'He'. Note that in the post above, Scripture is from the New American Standard Bible. While it is not exactly the Shakespearean King James, it is still very traditional in the way it was translated. Some folks say that the NASB was/is the most grammerically accurate translation.... I say 'to what generation'... as a different generation may not understand a word or phrase the same as their parents or grandparents... IMO it takes a lot of study (and possibly playing with the origional languages) to really get to the root sometimes... but ultimately I believe strongly it is a revelation from God, not an intellectual exercise.

My studies of Biblical times indicate that leadership was assumed to be a male role... they did not have equal rights back then... :) Some theologians have suggested that male gender was automatically assigned to all roles that were associated with leadership... including God... simply because women were usually not in those roles.

And there is a valid argument by many theologians that God has both gender personalities within him/herself... (I use that term in jest, not sure how to refer to a being that understands and can relate through both roles). There is a way to look at the first few chapters of Genesis and see that God gave Adam a complete personality (both male and female)... then he took the rib (and the female personality) and placed them in the woman...

Personally, I believe that God the Father operates a male role because of the importance of 'Fathering' His children (us Christians). And we have proof positive that during the short period that Christ occupied a body on this earth, it was a male body. Note that all three parts of God are eternal beings (no beginning and no end), therefor the time Christ was here may not be an exact and total representation of all things associated with Christ.

If there is reference to the Spirit in Scripture that speaks of his character and personal traits (as character and traits are referred to for the Father and Christ), I have not found it (yet). I am aware of the role the Spirit plays (communicator and indweller of our human spirit), but I have not found much that would give the Spirit a recognizable image; like 'Father' or 'Son' or 'Savior'.

One thing I have found and truly appreciate is this: As usual, God knows a lot more than I do, and I would do well to listen rather than think (incorrectly in my case) I have it figured out...

[RoBoTeq]

That's no problem with me, I sure would hate it if everyone agreed with me,
the world sure would be boring. :D
Well, since this conversation revolves around faith, I can't say I disagree with you either.

Faith based ideas I will disagree with are any that will create a negative attitude between peoples of faith. To me, those ideas are created by Satan to keep us fighting amongst ourselves.

[RoBoTeq]

On one of your rants last week, you sounded like Lucifer, fighting with an underling demon(Bootlen).:rolleyes:
Absolutely. Aren't we all? This is why we must constantly let God into our lives. We need to block out evil thought and replace it with God's influence.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Absolutely. Aren't we all? This is why we must constantly let God into our lives. We need to block out evil thought and replace it with God's influence.

IMO While there is some truth in this statement, there is also a subtle lie within... I will type the explanation later.

[RoBoTeq]

Now that would definitely be a statement of deception! Both Robo and Bootsie are Christians, and as such cannot be indwelt with a demon... they can be deceived into believing a lie that is not from God, but they cannot be indwelt with a demon...

Hmmm, I might have to alter that to believing many lies if I keep Robin in this paragraph... LOL :D

Christ will not share residence with a demon, and since Christ says our bodies (well, or beings) are His temple, then a demon could not be there also.

OK, back on the previous post about the mind of Christ:

Look at 1 Cor 2:12-16

V12-13 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is form God, that we might know the things freely given us by God; which things we also speak, not in words taught by Human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
John's comment: Note that this spirit is like a presence that indwells my mind and emotions (my soul). It is there and guides me when I choose to seek it and listen to it. Note also that this Spirit is ONLY in a Christian, it comes only AFTER one chooses Christ. A person that has not chosen Christianity does not have the Spirit, and as such does not have a first hand knowledge of this indwelling Spirit, and probably does not understand.

V14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised (understood).
John's comment: The reference to a natural man is a reference to a person that is operating from their own independent ability to think out things. It is my opinion that this Scripture says that in our own (independent, mental and/or emotional) strength, we cannot understand the things of God.

V15 But he who is spiritual appraises (understands) all things, yet he himself is appraised (understood) by no man.
John's comment: The person that chooses to seek God's Spirit will have an understanding of things that a person that does not seek that Spirit will not have. And only other folks that have sought that Spirit will also. In simple words: Only Christians that are seeking God will understand, and generally, only other Christians seeking God will understand what the first one said.

Here is the Scripture I was referring to in the post earlier:
V16 For who has know the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct Him (God), But we have the mind of Christ.
John's comment: Not even believers (Christians) know God/Father's mind... and if God's children (Christians) are not qualified to tell God what to do, then unbelievers sure as heck are not qualified to either... But we do have the mind of God's Son, Jesus Christ. Kinda like being the child of POTUS; you would have an inside to things going on...

Reference to that last sentence of V16 above:
Galatins 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lies in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh (in this biological body) I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me.
John's comment: Spiritually, us Christians died, and Christ is the life source within us... amazing, but there it is in print in the Bible!!! Talk about a relationship with God!!! How could one get any closer to the creator of the universe than to have the Spirit of his Son indwell me??? :cool:

And V21 is kinda interesting also: I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law (keeping the law in my strength), then Christ died needlessly.
John's comment: This verse puts to bed the idea that God accepts or rejects me based on my choices of behavior... Now I am NOT saying one can sin freely... rather God does not walk away from me when I goof up.
Also understand that if I consciously choose to sin, I will pay the price for it... :(

There is some interesting stuff in earlier vs in Gal ch 2, but that is another post.
OK, what he said;)

I did not mean that we all have demons dwelling within us. I was referring to the influence of Satan. I believe there are very few who actually have demons.

[RoBoTeq]

Yes. Very good post, GATECH. However, I would remind you that the Holy Spirit is a "He" and not an "it". He is the 3rd Person of the Triune God.
I would say that all aspects of God, and I don't limit God to a Trinity, are not really definable by us. If "he" refers to a man, then God, Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ in heaven etc. cannot be "He's". Jesus Christ was once a man, but now is back to being a spiritual entity.

[ga-hvac-tech]

I would say that all aspects of God, and I don't limit God to a Trinity, are not really definable by us. If "he" refers to a man, then God, Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ in heaven etc. cannot be "He's". Jesus Christ was once a man, but now is back to being a spiritual entity.

I am not arguing with you here Robin, but one of the things a Christian believes is that there is only one God, the one that is three parts. All other gods are not real in the Spiritual sense (unless one wants to call Satan a god).

Now for a little fun at your expense: As a salesperson, I understand that you cannot commit to a belief system that would mess with your income... LOL :p:D

[RoBoTeq]

I am not arguing with you here Robin, but one of the things a Christian believes is that there is only one God, the one that is three parts. All other gods are not real in the Spiritual sense (unless one wants to call Satan a god).

Now for a little fun at your expense: As a salesperson, I understand that you cannot commit to a belief system that would mess with your income... LOL :p:D
I believe in the Trinity as it is suggested Biblically, but I also believe that spiritually God can be as many entities as God wishes to be at any particular time. This is why God, unlike Satan Claus, can be with each and every one of use simultaneously. God's plurality is evident right from the beginning in Genesis.

I would never comprimise my faith for my work. My belief system in business is simple; it's all crap unless I'm selling it.

[bootlen]

I would say that all aspects of God, and I don't limit God to a Trinity, are not really definable by us. If "he" refers to a man, then God, Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ in heaven etc. cannot be "He's". Jesus Christ was once a man, but now is back to being a spiritual entity.

According to Scripture, there are only 3 Persons. If you have found more in Scripture, I'd be interested to know where.

Actually, "He" refers not to man but to God. God simply "lends" the word to us in that men are responsible for taking spiritual leadership in the church and family, 2 institutions God created.

And Christ is still in His physical body. He physically arose from the dead.

[ga-hvac-tech]

And Christ is still in His physical body. He physically arose from the dead.

How about his 'Resurrection body'...

As I read Scripture, the body Christ occupied in the times He revealed Himself to mankind after the resurrection; had/has qualities that our physical bodies do not...

'The other side' will be a GREAT place when we get there!!!

[bootlen]

How about his 'Resurrection body'...

As I read Scripture, the body Christ occupied in the times He revealed Himself to mankind after the resurrection; had/has qualities that our physical bodies do not...

'The other side' will be a GREAT place when we get there!!!

I think what's going on with this is that God cannot reveal Himself completely to our sin-ridden bodies because His glory would destroy us...until such time as WE also have received our promised glorified bodies...because we are still in a fallen state. The "resurrection body" is the glorified body. And we, too, shall have qualities that our current physical bodies do not.

Ya know, I think about these details and am in awe of the idea of being in a state where the desire to sin will not even exist.

BRING IT!

[ga-hvac-tech]

I think what's going on with this is that God cannot reveal Himself completely to our sin-ridden bodies because His glory would destroy us...until such time as WE also have received our promised glorified bodies...because we are still in a fallen state. The "resurrection body" is the glorified body. And we, too, shall have qualities that our current physical bodies do not.

Ya know, I think about these details and am in awe of the idea of being in a state where the desire to sin will not even exist.

BRING IT!

I agree, BRING IT ON!!!

I would suggest something though:

If the message in Gal 2:20 is correct (about I died and Christ is my life), then it is not really my nature to want to sin... rather that sin still dwells within my body (NOT my Spirit, where my identity and person hood are)... There is some interesting stuff in Romans CH 6 and 7 about this.

Yeah, it may be splitting hairs... but the idea that sin is not my nature does help me to live a righteous life...

Someday all us ARP Christians should gather somewhere... :)

[bootlen]

I agree, BRING IT ON!!!

I would suggest something though:

If the message in Gal 2:20 is correct (about I died and Christ is my life), then it is not really my nature to want to sin... rather that sin still dwells within my body (NOT my Spirit, where my identity and person hood are)... There is some interesting stuff in Romans CH 6 and 7 about this.

Yeah, it may be splitting hairs... but the idea that sin is not my nature does help me to live a righteous life...

Someday all us ARP Christians should gather somewhere... :)

We WILL! But I know what you mean...this side of eternity.

I guess in my post I should have substituted "desire to sin" with "be tempted". Our nature will not be a sinful one but one of pure righteousness. As it is, I hate sin with a passion and when I sin, I feel like manure wrapped in vomit (terrible analogy but you get my drift).

I LOVE the book of Romans. It is my favorite, in particular chapter 8. And chapter 8 shows us how the conflicts of sin nature and righteousness (found in chapters 6 and 7) are eliminated by the indescribable love of Almighty God through His death on Calvary.

[RoBoTeq]

According to Scripture, there are only 3 Persons. If you have found more in Scripture, I'd be interested to know where.

Actually, "He" refers not to man but to God. God simply "lends" the word to us in that men are responsible for taking spiritual leadership in the church and family, 2 institutions God created.

And Christ is still in His physical body. He physically arose from the dead.
Agreed, scripture only makes note of three beings represented as God. Scripture does not however make any claim that these are the only three entities that are God, that is a manmade claim that has become religioud dogma and religious dogma is nearly as dangerous as Satan himself.

I am not familiar with anything that teaches us that "he" is a God reference that is transposed to man. Could you please give me some references of that one? If you are referring to man being made in the image of God, I don't agree. I believe that passage refers to our spirituality, not any physical attributes.

Jesus Christ was raised from the dead and was in "a" physical form that was unrecognized by those who knew him. I am going to have to assume that something we just don't understand (yet) was going on with this physical version of Jesus. Also, Jesus ascended into Heaven in His mortal form. That does not absolutely mean that a flesh and blood Jesus is hanging around somewhere in outer space. It just means that there was no physical death on Earth, maybe the body vaporized....no one can claim to have knowledge on the ascension process.

[RoBoTeq]

Ya know, I think about these details and am in awe of the idea of being in a state where the desire to sin will not even exist.

BRING IT!
I'm with you on this one. What is really strange to me is that those of who believe we will exist in a state where there will be no more sin, where we will feel no physical pain or have to deal with heartache and fear, still are afraid of leaving our current physical existance.

When I had my heart attack, things did not look good for a while and then things took a nose dive while the stents were being implanted into my heart. I was pretty whacked out on morphine and nitro, but was awake all the way through having 7 of the 8 stents that were required to be implanted in my heart.

During the entire time of being admitted into the county hospital, being flown by helicopter to Johns Hopkins in Baltimore and having those first 7 stents implanted, I was outwardly joking about things going on. Inside, I was praying like crazy. Throughout this time, I kept saying to myself that I was in the best hands that are currently available and if I were to die, it was simply my time to do so. I felt I was ready for death and even sort of looked forward to the calm of no more physical woes.

Then; things went downhill after the implantation of the 7th stent and the medical staff made me very nervous because they were panicking over my blood pressure dropping to like 50 over 20. The last thing I remember was the nurses washing down my right leg to take veins from it for a by-pass. They must have had something in the IV to knock me out. My last conscience thought though was; "I'M NOT READY! PLEASE LORD......I'M NOT READY TO GO!"

Strange, huh?

[RoBoTeq]

Someday all us ARP Christians should gather somewhere... :)
I think that would be very nice. Even though we disagree on some of the details and even on end results, we do have a common interest that I think would be interesting in a round table type of discussion.

Most of us are used to doing Bible study with like minds. Maybe a little Bible study with those who have other views could provide refreshing thought for us.

I'm in.

[RoBoTeq]

We WILL! But I know what you mean...this side of eternity.

I guess in my post I should have substituted "desire to sin" with "be tempted". Our nature will not be a sinful one but one of pure righteousness. As it is, I hate sin with a passion and when I sin, I feel like manure wrapped in vomit (terrible analogy but you get my drift).

I LOVE the book of Romans. It is my favorite, in particular chapter 8. And chapter 8 shows us how the conflicts of sin nature and righteousness (found in chapters 6 and 7) are eliminated by the indescribable love of Almighty God through His death on Calvary.
It would make sense that would like the letter to Romans the best. This is a letter to those who had no prior monotheistic teachings but had a knowledge of higher beings. Letters to Hebrews were geared toward those who had monotheistic teachings in life but were taught laws that bound them and had a different perspective of the outcome of their prophecies. Corinthians were more philosophical then theological and needed to be given guidance. I fall more under the Corinthian thought because of a more openly uninhibited lifestyle that needed more direction.

Each letter is intended to do the same thing, yet each letter seems different because the approach from Paul needed to be different for the audience he was addressing.

[ga-hvac-tech]

We WILL! But I know what you mean...this side of eternity.

I guess in my post I should have substituted "desire to sin" with "be tempted". Our nature will not be a sinful one but one of pure righteousness. As it is, I hate sin with a passion and when I sin, I feel like manure wrapped in vomit (terrible analogy but you get my drift).

I LOVE the book of Romans. It is my favorite, in particular chapter 8. And chapter 8 shows us how the conflicts of sin nature and righteousness (found in chapters 6 and 7) are eliminated by the indescribable love of Almighty God through His death on Calvary.

Good post Boots!

I remember a while back... I think it was the late 1990's, I was teaching a Bible study group (done that on and off most of my life)... anyhow this group agreed to do the book of Romans. Yeah, that was biting off a mouthful.

They asked me if I would take it on; after some thought and prayer I said yes, but we need to think about something: This is a challenging study, and it will take a while.

Honestly, I was not sure I was qualified to teach the book, there was a lot in there I was not sure about...

The miraculous thing was that the Spirit showed me what I needed to know as the weeks and months went by... it took almost 2 years to complete the book...

What I learned from that study was/is that the book of Romans is an explanation of God's plan for salvation (both initial salvation from being lost, AND daily salvation from my independent--independent from God--lifestyle). Some folks call learning how to be dependent on God the real Christian life, I think it better to let that be an individual decision...

In Romans, St Paul (the writer of most of the new testament epistles) explains something that a current movement called 'Exchanged Life', and another movement calls Grace Life or Grace Walk teaches. You can get a copy of a book titled: 'Grace Walk' by Dr Steve McVey that will explain it. Go to this site:

GraceWalk.org

Note: There will be some things in the book that will challenge traditional Christian beliefs... and Dr McVey carefully documents every one of them with Scripture. There is a lot of freedom and relationship with God in this faith, I an thankful for being shown God's Grace this way.

[ga-hvac-tech]

I think that would be very nice. Even though we disagree on some of the details and even on end results, we do have a common interest that I think would be interesting in a round table type of discussion.

Most of us are used to doing Bible study with like minds. Maybe a little Bible study with those who have other views could provide refreshing thought for us.

I'm in.

One thought that comes to mind is an evening out at one of the HVAC shows or gatherings...

Another thought that comes to mind is a thread or private Email discussion...

Anyone have other ideas???

[bootlen]

Agreed, scripture only makes note of three beings represented as God. Scripture does not however make any claim that these are the only three entities that are God, that is a manmade claim that has become religioud dogma and religious dogma is nearly as dangerous as Satan himself.

I happen to believe that Romans 1 says differently. God's attributes can be seen in creation.

3 tenses of time: past, present, future;

3 dimensions in the physical creation: height, depth, width;

3 aspects of human life: mind, body, soul;

3 earthly attributes: land, sea, sky;

3 sides to the strongest possible component in structure;

There are others but I cannot remember them right now.

[RoBoTeq]

I happen to believe that Romans 1 says differently. God's attributes can be seen in creation.

3 tenses of time: past, present, future;

3 dimensions in the physical creation: height, depth, width;

3 aspects of human life: mind, body, soul;

3 earthly attributes: land, sea, sky;

3 sides to the strongest possible component in structure;

There are others but I cannot remember them right now.
Once again, I'm not disagreeing that a Trinity is suggested, never specifically mentioned as a Trinity. There is nothing that would confine God's nature to just three entities. I believe that God's plurality is infinite and that God can be with every individual in the existance of the Universe at the same time and equally if need be.

God is as individual to us as God is omnipresent. If you are praying to God, I believe you have God's full attention. If a million others are praying to God at exactly the same moment, I believe that each and every one of those people have God's full attention.

Do we really have enough justification to limit God to only three entities?

[ga-hvac-tech]

Once again, I'm not disagreeing that a Trinity is suggested, never specifically mentioned as a Trinity. There is nothing that would confine God's nature to just three entities. I believe that God's plurality is infinite and that God can be with every individual in the existance of the Universe at the same time and equally if need be.

God is as individual to us as God is omnipresent. If you are praying to God, I believe you have God's full attention. If a million others are praying to God at exactly the same moment, I believe that each and every one of those people have God's full attention.

Do we really have enough justification to limit God to only three entities?

I think Robin and Boots are talking about different things...

But since I replied to this post, I will speak to this post:

I agree that God the Father can listen to every believer in the world at the same time... He has some qualities (well many qualities) we do not... and many we may not even be able to imagine...

The accepted explanation is that the Spirit (or Holy Spirit) lives within the hearts of the believers... Call it a communications conduit if you will. And since the Spirit lives in the hearts of ALL believers, then God the Father can communicate with ALL believers, even at the same time... Just another of those things that God can do that we cannot... ;)

The following journey is one that I chose to take, and others have chosen also: At a point many years (well maybe decades) ago, I decided I was tired of hearing folks say; 'God said this to me' or 'God told me that'... So I told God that I wanted to learn to hear His voice. Well I went through some experiences that are too lengthy to type about... nothing unusual, just circumstances. In the midst of, and after some time, I realized what/where God's voice was/is in my life. There was nothing unusual or special about the experiences, just that I was open to learning something from God; and He taught it to me.

I believe that each of us has to 'pursue' finding God's voice in their personal lives. I can say for me it was worth the journey!

[Mr Bill]

I believe that each of us has to 'pursue' finding God's voice in their personal lives. I can say for me it was worth the journey!


Excellent post John! and your right the pursuit is worth it, as it took me a long time after giving my life to Christ to understand how and when he was speaking to me, I was a rebel on conformation for a long time it had to be Gods voice I was hearing, but when I opened up my rebel mind to conformation from others, man it was the last piece of the puzzle so to say and really has expanded my walk, but you also have to used a lot of discernment on listening to others.

[bootlen]

Once again, I'm not disagreeing that a Trinity is suggested, never specifically mentioned as a Trinity. There is nothing that would confine God's nature to just three entities. I believe that God's plurality is infinite and that God can be with every individual in the existance of the Universe at the same time and equally if need be.

Yeah, I disagree. His plurality is "limited" to the 3 in 1.

God is as individual to us as God is omnipresent. If you are praying to God, I believe you have God's full attention. If a million others are praying to God at exactly the same moment, I believe that each and every one of those people have God's full attention.

Agree. But it's because of His omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence that He can do that...not because of His plurality. Were He just One Person, He could still pull it off.

Do we really have enough justification to limit God to only three entities?

We don't. Scripture does.

[Mr Bill]

Do we really have enough justification to limit God to only three entities?

We don't. Scripture does.


I like the way you think, I also don't like to limit God to "anything" hey he is God he can do or be anything he wants. I think most of us try and stick to scripture on a lot of things involving God and the Word as I don't know anywhere in scripture that it said he is more than the Father, Son and Holy Spirit but I am also no Bible College grad. I do know that Psalms 12-6 and 7 says:
The words of the LORD are pure words; As silver tried in a furnace on the earth, refined seven times.
You, O LORD, will keep them; You will preserve him from this generation forever.

[RoBoTeq]

I think Robin and Boots are talking about different things...

But since I replied to this post, I will speak to this post:

I agree that God the Father can listen to every believer in the world at the same time... He has some qualities (well many qualities) we do not... and many we may not even be able to imagine...

The accepted explanation is that the Spirit (or Holy Spirit) lives within the hearts of the believers... Call it a communications conduit if you will. And since the Spirit lives in the hearts of ALL believers, then God the Father can communicate with ALL believers, even at the same time... Just another of those things that God can do that we cannot... ;)

The following journey is one that I chose to take, and others have chosen also: At a point many years (well maybe decades) ago, I decided I was tired of hearing folks say; 'God said this to me' or 'God told me that'... So I told God that I wanted to learn to hear His voice. Well I went through some experiences that are too lengthy to type about... nothing unusual, just circumstances. In the midst of, and after some time, I realized what/where God's voice was/is in my life. There was nothing unusual or special about the experiences, just that I was open to learning something from God; and He taught it to me.

I believe that each of us has to 'pursue' finding God's voice in their personal lives. I can say for me it was worth the journey!
I can completely relate to this post. I am currently in discussions with my son, the one who spent a month in jail a month ago and still has some legal and family issues down in Florida. One of the things we have been discussing is God speaking to us.

Eric is concerned because he says that even though prayer makes him feel better, that God does not actually talk to him. My response to that was; if God actually speaks to you, you may want to get a check up from the neck up. Maybe I'm wrong. Mayber God is actually vocal with some believers.

I told Eric that the fact that he feels better after prayer "is" God communicating with him. At least that's what occurs for me. I figure those internal feelings of contentment are God's communication with us. Sometimes I have "realizations" of things that I questoned in prayer which in essence is my answer. It's not like someone "told" me the answer to my questions or vocally taught me what I did not know, but I would "know" the answers and I would "understand" what was confusing to me prior to praying (my communication with God). I just assume that is what we refer to as the Holy Spirit. I feel I am filled with answers and comforting knowledge.

[Mr Bill]

Eric is concerned because he says that even though prayer makes him feel better, that God does not actually talk to him. My response to that was; if God actually speaks to you, you may want to get a check up from the neck up. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe God is actually vocal with some believers.

Only Benny Hinn :eek: I personally believe God speaks to the spirit within us, I have never had God speak to me verbally "but" I sure would not rule out that it can't happen, but I probably would have to change my underwear real soon afterwards. :D
You said you told Eric that the fact that he feels better after prayer "is" God communicating with him. At least that's what occurs for you, well if your Praying were at least communicating with him, but it don't mean he is not just listening at the moment and not even considering speaking back this time, but technically Prayer "is" communicating with God because he does hear our Prayers. Robin I am so glad to hear Eric is out, I have been concerned about him "but keeping it to myself" ever since you wrote the post about it, I did not post in that thread but I did keep him in Prayer. Eric has a good Daddy, I know I have meet his Daddy before. :D

[RoBoTeq]

Once again, I'm not disagreeing that a Trinity is suggested, never specifically mentioned as a Trinity. There is nothing that would confine God's nature to just three entities. I believe that God's plurality is infinite and that God can be with every individual in the existance of the Universe at the same time and equally if need be.

Yeah, I disagree. His plurality is "limited" to the 3 in 1.

God is as individual to us as God is omnipresent. If you are praying to God, I believe you have God's full attention. If a million others are praying to God at exactly the same moment, I believe that each and every one of those people have God's full attention.

Agree. But it's because of His omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence that He can do that...not because of His plurality. Were He just One Person, He could still pull it off.

Do we really have enough justification to limit God to only three entities?

We don't. Scripture does.
GA-tech may be right that we are discussing different things or at least using different terminology. Here is a list of Bible passages that refer to the plurality of God; [quote]

Plurality of God in the Old Testament
Gen. 1:26 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Gen/Gen_1.htm#And), "Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.'"
Angels do not create.
We are not made in the image of angels
there is no place in the OT where a leader refers to himself with the term "us."
Gen. 3:22 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Gen/Gen_3.htm#21), "Then the Lord God said, 'Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.'"
Gen. 11:7 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Gen/Gen_11.htm#1), "Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech."
Gen. 19:24 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Gen/Gen_19.htm#Th), "Then the Lord [YHWH] rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord [YHWH] out of heaven."
Psalm 45:6-7 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Psalms/Psalm_45.htm#6), "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Thy kingdom. 7Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated wickedness; Therefore God, Thy God, has anointed Thee."

This is quoted in Heb. 1:8 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Heb/Heb_1.htm#And), "But of the Son He [God] says, “Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, And the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom."
The Jehovah's Witness Bible has it translated as "God is thy Throne forever and ever..." But, God would not be a throne for anyone. A king sits upon a throne and God sits on His throne, not anyone else on God as a throne.
Isaiah 6:8 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Isaiah/Isaiah_6.htm#1), "Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, 'Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?" Then I said, "Here am I. Send me!'"
Isaiah 48:16 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Isaiah/Isaiah_48.htm#16), "Come near to Me [God], listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord God has sent Me, and His Spirit.”
Amos 4:10-11 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Amos/Amos_4.htm#sent), “I sent a plague among you after the manner of Egypt; I slew your young men by the sword along with your captured horses, And I made the stench of your camp rise up in your nostrils; Yet you have not returned to Me,” declares the Lord [YHWH]. 11“I overthrew you as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, And you were like a firebrand snatched from a blaze; Yet you have not returned to Me,” declares the Lord."Plurality of God in the New Testament

Matt. 3:16-17 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Matt/matt_3.htm#15), "And after being baptized, Jesus went up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon Him, 17and behold, a voice out of the heavens, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.”
Matt. 28:19 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Matt/matt_28.htm#th), "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,"
Note that there is one name and three persons.
1 Cor. 12:4-6 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/1Cor/1cor_12.htm#1), "Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6And there are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons."

"Lord" here is probably Jesus. See next verse.
2 Cor. 13:14 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/2Cor/2cor_13.htm#14), "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all."
Eph. 4:4-6 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Eph/eph_4.htm#1), "There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all."
1 Pet. 1:2 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/1Pet/1Pet_1.htm#1), "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in fullest measure."
Jude 20-21 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Jude/Jude_1.htm#20), "But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith; praying in the Holy Spirit; 21keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life."
[/qoute]
All of these passages state absolutely or at least give an indication that God is of a plural nature; many in one. At least two passages in the New Testament directly define the Trinity. Aside from these two passages, none of the others limit the amount of entities that are being discussed as the plural nature of God.

This is not a biggy to me. I am certainly not going to make the plurality, or even the singularness of God an issue between myself and other believers. For me, this is simply a discussion of details. Seeing that I am dislexic, we can just say that I believe in doG but am not really certain as to how many whiskers doG has;)

[RoBoTeq]

Only Benny Hinn :eek: I personally believe God speaks to the spirit within us, I have never had God speak to me verbally "but" I sure would not rule out that it can't happen, but I probably would have to change my underwear real soon afterwards. :D
You said you told Eric that the fact that he feels better after prayer "is" God communicating with him. At least that's what occurs for you, well if your Praying were at least communicating with him, but it don't mean he is not just listening at the moment and not even considering speaking back this time, but technically Prayer "is" communicating with God because he does hear our Prayers. Robin I am so glad to hear Eric is out, I have been concerned about him "but keeping it to myself" ever since you wrote the post about it, I did not post in that thread but I did keep him in Prayer. Eric has a good Daddy, I know I have meet his Daddy before. :D
Thanks for your thoughts and prayers for Eric. I truly believe that communal prayers received for Eric have allowed Eric to be released sooner and his upcoming trials to be reduced in severity. The best thing I believe to come out of the prayers for Eric is that Eric is now very curious about what the Bible contains. Some of this also came from his fellow inmates, who I am sure are desperately seeking a reason for their behaviour as well.

[ga-hvac-tech]

I can completely relate to this post. I am currently in discussions with my son, the one who spent a month in jail a month ago and still has some legal and family issues down in Florida. One of the things we have been discussing is God speaking to us.

Eric is concerned because he says that even though prayer makes him feel better, that God does not actually talk to him. My response to that was; if God actually speaks to you, you may want to get a check up from the neck up. Maybe I'm wrong. Mayber God is actually vocal with some believers.

I told Eric that the fact that he feels better after prayer "is" God communicating with him. At least that's what occurs for me. I figure those internal feelings of contentment are God's communication with us. Sometimes I have "realizations" of things that I questoned in prayer which in essence is my answer. It's not like someone "told" me the answer to my questions or vocally taught me what I did not know, but I would "know" the answers and I would "understand" what was confusing to me prior to praying (my communication with God). I just assume that is what we refer to as the Holy Spirit. I feel I am filled with answers and comforting knowledge.



I have come to understand that God chooses to do things differently with different folks... He might approach me when I privately talk to Him while I am working... He may simply pass a thought to someone while they are driving... He may quicken another one when they hear a song... And yet another may hear from God through Scripture (only).

But there is IMO one similar thing here; the person is seeking God.

This is why I believe that each of us has to seek God and learn (uniquely) the way God will speak to each person. Scripture tells us "...If we seek Him with all our heart, He will reveal Himself to us..." I would add in the way He chooses to...

[RoBoTeq]

I have come to understand that God chooses to do things differently with different folks... He might approach me when I privately talk to Him while I am working... He may simply pass a thought to someone while they are driving... He may quicken another one when they hear a song... And yet another may hear from God through Scripture (only).

But there is IMO one similar thing here; the person is seeking God.

This is why I believe that each of us has to seek God and learn (uniquely) the way God will speak to each person. Scripture tells us "...If we seek Him with all our heart, He will reveal Himself to us..." I would add in the way He chooses to...
Uh oh, you are about to feel the wrath of booty:p

Boots says that we do not seek God but rather God has always done the seeking. We must be the hiders;)

Seriously though, I agree. I think that the Genesis account where God is seeking Adam after Eve forced Adam to eat the apple (yes I did just blame women for man's bad behaviour:D) is depicting that man's acceptance of knowledge from Satan prevents God from seeing us unless we reveal ourselves to God. I believe that the way for us to reveal ourselves to God is through constant communication with God.

As long as we keep an open line of communication to God, God can easily slip us information.

Hmmmm, did I just agree with boots? Maybe it is God that does the seeking and we need to constantly reveal ourselves to God so we may be found.

[bootlen]

Uh oh, you are about to feel the wrath of booty:p

Boots says that we do not seek God but rather God has always done the seeking. We must be the hiders;)

Seriously though, I agree. I think that the Genesis account where God is seeking Adam after Eve forced Adam to eat the apple (yes I did just blame women for man's bad behaviour:D) is depicting that man's acceptance of knowledge from Satan prevents God from seeing us unless we reveal ourselves to God. I believe that the way for us to reveal ourselves to God is through constant communication with God.

As long as we keep an open line of communication to God, God can easily slip us information.

Hmmmm, did I just agree with boots? Maybe it is God that does the seeking and we need to constantly reveal ourselves to God so we may be found.

THERE IT IS!

Light received brings more light.

And that Adam and Eve thing...Adam committed the first sin. He stood right there while Satan beguiled her. He did not rebuke Satan. He did not tell Eve to not believe Satan. He did nothing. (See James 4:17) It was his responsibility, as spiritual leader of his family, to protect her. And I am willing to bet my life that Adam knew that he was responsible for protecting her.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Uh oh, you are about to feel the wrath of booty:p

Yeah, I started the post with a line something like; 'I probably will start a feud with this post...' but removed it...


Boots says that we do not seek God but rather God has always done the seeking. We must be the hiders;)

Seriously though, I agree. I think that the Genesis account where God is seeking Adam after Eve forced Adam to eat the apple (yes I did just blame women for man's bad behaviour:D) is depicting that man's acceptance of knowledge from Satan prevents God from seeing us unless we reveal ourselves to God. I believe that the way for us to reveal ourselves to God is through constant communication with God.

As long as we keep an open line of communication to God, God can easily slip us information.

Hmmmm, did I just agree with boots? Maybe it is God that does the seeking and we need to constantly reveal ourselves to God so we may be found.

OK, lets see what we can do with this:

Earlier did we agree that God is Omnicient, Omnipotent, and Omnipresent???
That is, God sees all, knows all, and is in all places at the same time...

OK, if God can be in all places all the time (as He chooses), then why would God have to 'find' me?

Ya know, there is that title 'God'... maybe it is us that need to 'find' Him?

As to the conversation in the Garden... first off, you are about to pi$$ off a woman, and Scripture says that is not wise; something about 'evil hath no equal to the wrath of a woman'... :eek: but getting back to the subject:
What Adam and Eve 'inherited' when they ate the apple was/is 'The knowledge of good and evil'. Now lets stop and think for a minute; why would a loving God keep this from them? I believe the answer is that since God created them, He knew their souls (minds and emotions) were not wired to handle it... Think of it kinda like a parent keeping a child from eating too much candy and spoiling their day...

OK... but as usual, us humans are just too stubborn and rebellious to go along with the program... so we rebelled...

I believe God already knew what happened, and he went looking for Adam and Eve because He loved them and wanted to talk to them about what happened. If God did not care, He would have just dusted his hands off (figuratively speaking), and let TSHTF... :eek:

There is another thought I would like to suggest here: Am I the center of the universe, or is God? In other words; Should God respond to me, or should I respond to God? (IMO, one should remember what the title God means, and tconsider the concept 'God the Father' in this thought process). After all, Scripture does suggest we approach God in a child like way.

Where I am going with this 'who is the central focus' thingy is that IMO one's viewpoint will change if they look through eyes that say it is all about me (my eyes), or look through eyes that see what God sees (see through God's eyes). Now one may ask; how do I see through God's eyes? Good question: I believe the answer is to humble oneself in God's presence and seek a relationship with Him... (and IMO, that relationship will be on His terms). After we do that, as time goes by and I abide in that relationship, I will 'see' lots of things I did not realize... And subtly, my view on things will change.

This subtle change that happens inside me (that is, in my mind and emotions), IMO is the wonderful reward of a relationship with God, and what the Christian life is about.

[ga-hvac-tech]

All of these passages state absolutely or at least give an indication that God is of a plural nature; many in one. At least two passages in the New Testament directly define the Trinity. Aside from these two passages, none of the others limit the amount of entities that are being discussed as the plural nature of God.

This is not a biggy to me. I am certainly not going to make the plurality, or even the singularness of God an issue between myself and other believers. For me, this is simply a discussion of details. Seeing that I am dislexic, we can just say that I believe in doG but am not really certain as to how many whiskers doG has;)

It would appear to me that each example which names 3 parts of God, supports the idea that God is one, yet in 3 forms...

Could this be one of those thingys that God can understand, but we cannot (other than by revelation from the Spirit)?

[bootlen]

I would think she was more pissed when she realized she was living "Paradise Lost". Adam could have saved her from that. Now she's really pissed because he did not. So...there goes THAT theory.

Why does God have to "find" us? I didn't say He does. I said He seeks us. And you'll have to ask Christ, Second Person of the Triune God, that question. He said, "I came to SEEK and save the lost."

As to why God would "hide' knowledge of good and evil from A & E? That sorta became obvious, did it not? It led to death...spiritual and eventually physical.

But the reason the forbidden fruit was placed within reach was to give A & E, and by extension, ALL of mankind, the opportunity to FREELY choose to love and obey God. God chose to NOT force us to love and obey Him by leaving temptation. He wants us to freely choose Him over all others.

[ga-hvac-tech]

I would think she was more pissed when she realized she was living "Paradise Lost". Adam could have saved her from that. Now she's really pissed because he did not. So...there goes THAT theory.

Why does God have to "find" us? I didn't say He does. I said He seeks us. And you'll have to ask Christ, Second Person of the Triune God, that question. He said, "I came to SEEK and save the lost."

As to why God would "hide' knowledge of good and evil from A & E? That sorta became obvious, did it not? It led to death...spiritual and eventually physical.

But the reason the forbidden fruit was placed within reach was to give A & E, and by extension, ALL of mankind, the opportunity to FREELY choose to love and obey God. God chose to NOT force us to love and obey Him by leaving temptation. He wants us to freely choose Him over all others.

Some interesting thoughts there Boots.

But it is late, and I have a book I am interested in... How about I look at this tomorrow.

[RoBoTeq]

I would think she was more pissed when she realized she was living "Paradise Lost". Adam could have saved her from that. Now she's really pissed because he did not. So...there goes THAT theory.
Nothing's much changed has it? No matter what we do when it comes to women, we are damned if we do and damned if we don't:confused:


Why does God have to "find" us? I didn't say He does. I said He seeks us. And you'll have to ask Christ, Second Person of the Triune God, that question. He said, "I came to SEEK and save the lost."
Well, now you are talking in circles. Why in the world would God seek what God is not intending to find?

As for Jesus having come to "seek" and save the lost, this is not the same as seeking us in general. Jesus was seeking the lost sheep to bring into the flock. Not the same.

What I think is that once mankind, through Adam and Eve, obtained the knowledge of good and evil, we were able to hide from God. Not only able to hide, but hiding became the norm unless we wanted to be found. The way to be exposed to God is to communicate with God.



As to why God would "hide' knowledge of good and evil from A & E? That sorta became obvious, did it not? It led to death...spiritual and eventually physical.

But the reason the forbidden fruit was placed within reach was to give A & E, and by extension, ALL of mankind, the opportunity to FREELY choose to love and obey God. God chose to NOT force us to love and obey Him by leaving temptation. He wants us to freely choose Him over all others.
I agree that God has always given mankind the choice between good and evil as well as the choice to choose knowledge of good and evil over blissful ignorance. I do not think God planned for man to fail, it was man's choice to fail.

God's creating man to have the choice between good and evil in literally every aspect of man's life is why we need to constantly be asking if what we are doing, the decisions we are making are good or evil. The way to verify our choices is through God. The way to reveal ourselves to God is through communication with God. The way to communicate with God is through prayer.

[bootlen]

Nothing's much changed has it? No matter what we do when it comes to women, we are damned if we do and damned if we don't:confused:

Yeah but I'd rather face a woman's wrath than God's. You?

Edit: I'll share this very secret moment. My wife had wanted to do something (not important what it was) that was outside God's will. I had details that she did not. I was not aware of what she wanted but by God's grace, I stepped in and unwittingly foiled her plans by virtue of tryting to do what was right before God. She was initially hurt and slightly angry. But about a week later, she had come upon the details that I mentioned above and that she did not. She came to me that night with grace and thanksgiving. It was the best reconciliation of disagreement I have ever experienced.

As for Jesus having come to "seek" and save the lost, this is not the same as seeking us in general. Jesus was seeking the lost sheep to bring into the flock. Not the same.

Sure it is. Precisely the same. Same word. Same definition. Same context.

What I think is that once mankind, through Adam and Eve, obtained the knowledge of good and evil, we were able to hide from God. Not only able to hide, but hiding became the norm unless we wanted to be found. The way to be exposed to God is to communicate with God.

Peading Clinton Amendment again. Define "hide". I guess if you mean God cannot look upon sin, then in that context I totally agree. But I think the word "communicate" is a little more accurate term. We are out of fellowship with God if we are in a sinful unrepentant state.
However, tha fact that God is omniscient means He was not asking where A & E were for His own sake but for theirs. He wanted them to realize that they were "incommunicado" in the spritual sense. They were dead spiritually.

I agree that God has always given mankind the choice between good and evil as well as the choice to choose knowledge of good and evil over blissful ignorance. I do not think God planned for man to fail, it was man's choice to fail.

Absolutely. No question. But God DID have foreknowledge that man would fall and God had a plan to reconcile.

God's creating man to have the choice between good and evil in literally every aspect of man's life is why we need to constantly be asking if what we are doing, the decisions we are making are good or evil. The way to verify our choices is through God. The way to reveal ourselves to God is through communication with God. The way to communicate with God is through prayer.

Okay. But I think communication does not reveal US to GOD as much as it reveals God to US. It is we who are blind...not God.

[RoBoTeq]

Nothing's much changed has it? No matter what we do when it comes to women, we are damned if we do and damned if we don't:confused:

Yeah but I'd rather face a woman's wrath than God's. You?

Edit: I'll share this very secret moment. My wife had wanted to do something (not important what it was) that was outside God's will. I had details that she did not. I was not aware of what she wanted but by God's grace, I stepped in and unwittingly foiled her plans by virtue of tryting to do what was right before God. She was initially hurt and slightly angry. But about a week later, she had come upon the details that I mentioned above and that she did not. She came to me that night with grace and thanksgiving. It was the best reconciliation of disagreement I have ever experienced.

As for Jesus having come to "seek" and save the lost, this is not the same as seeking us in general. Jesus was seeking the lost sheep to bring into the flock. Not the same.

Sure it is. Precisely the same. Same word. Same definition. Same context.

What I think is that once mankind, through Adam and Eve, obtained the knowledge of good and evil, we were able to hide from God. Not only able to hide, but hiding became the norm unless we wanted to be found. The way to be exposed to God is to communicate with God.

Peading Clinton Amendment again. Define "hide". I guess if you mean God cannot look upon sin, then in that context I totally agree. But I think the word "communicate" is a little more accurate term. We are out of fellowship with God if we are in a sinful unrepentant state.
However, tha fact that God is omniscient means He was not asking where A & E were for His own sake but for theirs. He wanted them to realize that they were "incommunicado" in the spritual sense. They were dead spiritually.

I agree that God has always given mankind the choice between good and evil as well as the choice to choose knowledge of good and evil over blissful ignorance. I do not think God planned for man to fail, it was man's choice to fail.

Absolutely. No question. But God DID have foreknowledge that man would fall and God had a plan to reconcile.

God's creating man to have the choice between good and evil in literally every aspect of man's life is why we need to constantly be asking if what we are doing, the decisions we are making are good or evil. The way to verify our choices is through God. The way to reveal ourselves to God is through communication with God. The way to communicate with God is through prayer.

Okay. But I think communication does not reveal US to GOD as much as it reveals God to US. It is we who are blind...not God.
I'm beginning to think you have an overly abundant appreciation for Monty Python. Your rebuttals are not arguments as much as they are contradictions;) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM&mode=related&search=

[bootlen]

Your rebuttals are not arguments as much as they are contradictions;)

Can you be specific?

BTW, I am a huge fan of MP. Thanks for the link.

[RoBoTeq]

quote=bootlen;2042985

Nothing's much changed has it? No matter what we do when it comes to women, we are damned if we do and damned if we don't:confused:

Yeah but I'd rather face a woman's wrath than God's. You?

While not a contradiction, this is you agreeing with me but with a condition that was not being discussed.

Edit: I'll share this very secret moment. My wife had wanted to do something (not important what it was) that was outside God's will. I had details that she did not. I was not aware of what she wanted but by God's grace, I stepped in and unwittingly foiled her plans by virtue of tryting to do what was right before God. She was initially hurt and slightly angry. But about a week later, she had come upon the details that I mentioned above and that she did not. She came to me that night with grace and thanksgiving. It was the best reconciliation of disagreement I have ever experienced.

As for Jesus having come to "seek" and save the lost, this is not the same as seeking us in general. Jesus was seeking the lost sheep to bring into the flock. Not the same.

Sure it is. Precisely the same. Same word. Same definition. Same context.

Purely a contradiction. Was everyone lost? Could God not find us until He became incarnate in Jesus? Elsewhere you state that man cannot hide from God, so why would God need to seek us? Seeking out those with specific needs is not the same as seeking out all of mankind. I'm calling Monte on this one;)

What I think is that once mankind, through Adam and Eve, obtained the knowledge of good and evil, we were able to hide from God. Not only able to hide, but hiding became the norm unless we wanted to be found. The way to be exposed to God is to communicate with God.

Peading Clinton Amendment again. Define "hide". I guess if you mean God cannot look upon sin, then in that context I totally agree. But I think the word "communicate" is a little more accurate term. We are out of fellowship with God if we are in a sinful unrepentant state.
However, tha fact that God is omniscient means He was not asking where A & E were for His own sake but for theirs. He wanted them to realize that they were "incommunicado" in the spritual sense. They were dead spiritually.

Yep, contradiction. Pulling the ole Bill Clinton act just gives you the venue to contradict what I stated by honing in on a particular verb definition. Shame on you for using a Clintonian tactic, just what kind of a conservative are you?

On this one you are also switching forms of interpretation to support your contradictions. In a way, you have contradicted yourself. You claim that God seeks us. Why would God seek us if God can see us at all times, as you also claim? The book of Genesis gives very little detail of this event, but let's review;

Ge 3:8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walkingl (javascript:void(0);) in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hidm (javascript:void(0);) from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”n (javascript:void(0);)Ge 3:10 He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraido (javascript:void(0);) because I was naked;p (javascript:void(0);) so I hid.”
Adam and his wife hid from God. (Adam's wife was not yet named, but was rather an extension of Adam. After the fall, Adam names his wife Eve, because she will be the mother of mankind) God called out to them; "where are you?" Was God lying about not knowing where Adam and his wife were?

I agree that God has always given mankind the choice between good and evil as well as the choice to choose knowledge of good and evil over blissful ignorance. I do not think God planned for man to fail, it was man's choice to fail.

Absolutely. No question. But God DID have foreknowledge that man would fall and God had a plan to reconcile.

Again, agreement with contradictory condition. Why would God be so deceitful? Why would God play such a game that God already knew the outcome of? It makes more sense that God has Created mankind specifically for God to "not" know the outcome of man's actions. In every scenario of life, man has the choice between good and evil. Does it not make more sense that God wants man to have complete free will so that when man chooses God it is out of pure love rather then design?

Of course there was a plan in place in case man chose evil. The entire physical world is planned with specific laws of nature that provide man with preset outcomes for series of actions that are nearly limitless. The physical world is like a computer game. There are specifically programmed outcomes for multitudes of series of actions. The basics of the programming is called "if/then". If you do "A", "B" and "C", then "1" will happen. If you only do "A" and "C", then maybe "2" will happen. Still, the choice of actions are up to the individual and I don't see why God would fix the game so the God already knows every outcome in advance. What would be the fun in that kind of game?

God's creating man to have the choice between good and evil in literally every aspect of man's life is why we need to constantly be asking if what we are doing, the decisions we are making are good or evil. The way to verify our choices is through God. The way to reveal ourselves to God is through communication with God. The way to communicate with God is through prayer.

Okay. But I think communication does not reveal US to GOD as much as it reveals God to US. It is we who are blind...not God.

Again, this is just a contradiction. You agree, but feel the need to agree only with conditions so you can also disagree. Obviously a Monte

[acmanko]

Christians are Liberal after all.

[RoBoTeq]

Christians are Liberal after all.
Oh, I can't wait to hear the justification for this comment:rolleyes:

Just so you know, I am a Christian and I do not consider myself overall liberal or overall conservative. I am liberal on some issues and conservative on others but more central on most issues. I am also a Christian who believes that at least one Christian oriented organization is Satanic and most others are very heavily influenced by evil doctrine and dogma.

[coolwhip]

Oh, I can't wait to hear the justification for this comment:rolleyes:

Just so you know, I am a Christian and I do not consider myself overall liberal or overall conservative. I am liberal on some issues and conservative on others but more central on most issues. I am also a Christian who believes that at least one Christian oriented organization is Satanic and most others are very heavily influenced by evil doctrine and dogma.

Im sorry, I was trying to quote Satan but got Robo's post instead.:D

http://d.imagehost.org/0580/devil.jpg

[acmanko]

Oh, I can't wait to hear the justification for this comment:rolleyes:

Just so you know, I am a Christian and I do not consider myself overall liberal or overall conservative. I am liberal on some issues and conservative on others but more central on most issues. I am also a Christian who believes that at least one Christian oriented organization is Satanic and most others are very heavily influenced by evil doctrine and dogma.well, look at the topic of the thread. see how it gravitated toward a liberal interpretation of the Bible. Nothing conservative about whats been discussed. Its all been very LIBERATING.:)

[bootlen]

While not a contradiction, this is you agreeing with me but with a condition that was not being discussed.

So?

Purely a contradiction. Was everyone lost? Could God not find us until He became incarnate in Jesus? Elsewhere you state that man cannot hide from God, so why would God need to seek us? Seeking out those with specific needs is not the same as seeking out all of mankind. I'm calling Monte on this one;)

Yes. Everyone was lost...many still are. "There is not one righteous...no, not one." The "seeking" in the garden is a picture of God reaching for each of us to come to salvation.

Yep, contradiction. Pulling the ole Bill Clinton act just gives you the venue to contradict what I stated by honing in on a particular verb definition. Shame on you for using a Clintonian tactic, just what kind of a conservative are you?

On this one you are also switching forms of interpretation to support your contradictions. In a way, you have contradicted yourself. You claim that God seeks us. Why would God seek us if God can see us at all times, as you also claim? The book of Genesis gives very little detail of this event, but let's review;

Ge 3:8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walkingl (javascript:void(0);) in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hidm (javascript:void(0);) from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”n (javascript:void(0);)Ge 3:10 He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraido (javascript:void(0);) because I was naked;p (javascript:void(0);) so I hid.”
Adam and his wife hid from God. (Adam's wife was not yet named, but was rather an extension of Adam. After the fall, Adam names his wife Eve, because she will be the mother of mankind) God called out to them; "where are you?" Was God lying about not knowing where Adam and his wife were?

They were hiding alright...not from God...from themselves. You ever see anyone ashamed and hide their face? They can still be seen by others. And God asked where they were not for His sake but for ours...to help us realize we are spiritually lost. Lost..not in the sense of a state of not being out of sight...rather, in the sense of being without hope...as in, "all is lost".

Again, agreement with contradictory condition. Why would God be so deceitful? Why would God play such a game that God already knew the outcome of? It makes more sense that God has Created mankind specifically for God to "not" know the outcome of man's actions. In every scenario of life, man has the choice between good and evil. Does it not make more sense that God wants man to have complete free will so that when man chooses God it is out of pure love rather then design?

Where was God being deceitful? Be very careful here. Deceitfulness is of satan. "For he is a liar and the father of lies." Not the brightest thing in the world to do to make God to be like satan.

Not a game, Robo. He was offering a choice. He was ensuring a free will to us to choose to love and obey. You have another plan to provide a true free will for mankind? One better than God's? I think not.

Of course there was a plan in place in case man chose evil. The entire physical world is planned with specific laws of nature that provide man with preset outcomes for series of actions that are nearly limitless. The physical world is like a computer game. There are specifically programmed outcomes for multitudes of series of actions. The basics of the programming is called "if/then". If you do "A", "B" and "C", then "1" will happen. If you only do "A" and "C", then maybe "2" will happen. Still, the choice of actions are up to the individual and I don't see why God would fix the game so the God already knows every outcome in advance. What would be the fun in that kind of game?

Right. But it's not a game. It's real life or death. Our choice.

Again, this is just a contradiction. You agree, but feel the need to agree only with conditions so you can also disagree. Obviously a Monte

What's wrong with that? You think I should agree with all you say unconditionally? C'mon. You're smarter than that.

And that is not a contradiction. It's a set of legitimate parameters.

[RoBoTeq]

While not a contradiction, this is you agreeing with me but with a condition that was not being discussed.

So?

Purely a contradiction. Was everyone lost? Could God not find us until He became incarnate in Jesus? Elsewhere you state that man cannot hide from God, so why would God need to seek us? Seeking out those with specific needs is not the same as seeking out all of mankind. I'm calling Monte on this one;)

Yes. Everyone was lost...many still are. "There is not one righteous...no, not one." The "seeking" in the garden is a picture of God reaching for each of us to come to salvation.

Yep, contradiction. Pulling the ole Bill Clinton act just gives you the venue to contradict what I stated by honing in on a particular verb definition. Shame on you for using a Clintonian tactic, just what kind of a conservative are you?

On this one you are also switching forms of interpretation to support your contradictions. In a way, you have contradicted yourself. You claim that God seeks us. Why would God seek us if God can see us at all times, as you also claim? The book of Genesis gives very little detail of this event, but let's review;

Ge 3:8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walkingl (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0);) in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hidm (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0);) from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”n (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0);)Ge 3:10 He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraido (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0);) because I was naked;p (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0);) so I hid.”
Adam and his wife hid from God. (Adam's wife was not yet named, but was rather an extension of Adam. After the fall, Adam names his wife Eve, because she will be the mother of mankind) God called out to them; "where are you?" Was God lying about not knowing where Adam and his wife were?

They were hiding alright...not from God...from themselves. You ever see anyone ashamed and hide their face? They can still be seen by others. And God asked where they were not for His sake but for ours...to help us realize we are spiritually lost. Lost..not in the sense of a state of not being out of sight...rather, in the sense of being without hope...as in, "all is lost".

Again, agreement with contradictory condition. Why would God be so deceitful? Why would God play such a game that God already knew the outcome of? It makes more sense that God has Created mankind specifically for God to "not" know the outcome of man's actions. In every scenario of life, man has the choice between good and evil. Does it not make more sense that God wants man to have complete free will so that when man chooses God it is out of pure love rather then design?

Where was God being deceitful? Be very careful here. Deceitfulness is of satan. "For he is a liar and the father of lies." Not the brightest thing in the world to do to make God to be like satan.

Not a game, Robo. He was offering a choice. He was ensuring a free will to us to choose to love and obey. You have another plan to provide a true free will for mankind? One better than God's? I think not.

Of course there was a plan in place in case man chose evil. The entire physical world is planned with specific laws of nature that provide man with preset outcomes for series of actions that are nearly limitless. The physical world is like a computer game. There are specifically programmed outcomes for multitudes of series of actions. The basics of the programming is called "if/then". If you do "A", "B" and "C", then "1" will happen. If you only do "A" and "C", then maybe "2" will happen. Still, the choice of actions are up to the individual and I don't see why God would fix the game so the God already knows every outcome in advance. What would be the fun in that kind of game?

Right. But it's not a game. It's real life or death. Our choice.

Again, this is just a contradiction. You agree, but feel the need to agree only with conditions so you can also disagree. Obviously a Monte

What's wrong with that? You think I should agree with all you say unconditionally? C'mon. You're smarter than that.

And that is not a contradiction. It's a set of legitimate parameters.
Well, none of my Bibles state the additional information you have provided for Biblical passages. It must be nice to have so much hidden knowledge:rolleyes:

I have a real suspicious atitude toward those who feel they can fill in the blanks of Biblical text booty. Here is the facts; you don't know these things any more then anyone else does...not for fact. You are taking the word of others that what is not specified in the Bible is what others have determined must be what happened. This is how hatred amonst men is created. This is how wars are started. This is "NOT" from God.

[bootlen]

Well, none of my Bibles state the additional information you have provided for Biblical passages. It must be nice to have so much hidden knowledge:rolleyes:

I have a real suspicious atitude toward those who feel they can fill in the blanks of Biblical text booty. Here is the facts; you don't know these things any more then anyone else does...not for fact. You are taking the word of others that what is not specified in the Bible is what others have determined must be what happened. This is how hatred amonst men is created. This is how wars are started. This is "NOT" from God.

Other Scripture backs up my posts. You have to learn to allow Scripture to interpret Scripture. Works wonders. And of course it's how wars are started. People refuse to believe God at His Word. It just naturally follows. It sounds like you are a bit miffed...even angry. Hmm.

I am curious, though. Where in Scripture does it say God is deceitful?

[Mr Bill]

Regardless of how brilliant or how great one's intellect may be, God's Word is not understood by human wisdom or reasoning. It is only through the Spirit of God that the Word of God is understood.

Jesus said it is the Spirit of truth that teaches us all things.

A time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.
- John 4:23-24

[sline-dawg]

Oh brother..... You need secret coded phrases to decipher the true meaning of Gods message.....:confused:

Does it help when the moon is full, also.......:rolleyes:


I'm sure all the extra work you go through to prove you know the "message" will be appreciated....;)


Planet X will be here in a few years and perhaps The Rapture too......:cool:

[RoBoTeq]

It sounds like you are a bit miffed...even angry. Hmm.
Just annoyed at having to put up with zealots who think they know God better then anyone else. There is no reason for me to be angry over what I have no authority. Another name for those who magically know what Biblical text that is not clearly defined by the Bible is Gnostic. Are you a Gnostic?


I am curious, though. Where in Scripture does it say God is deceitful?
The Bible doesn't, you did, when you stated; And God asked where they were not for His sake but for ours...to help us realize we are spiritually lost.

Do you really feel you have the right to speak for God?

[RoBoTeq]

Regardless of how brilliant or how great one's intellect may be, God's Word is not understood by human wisdom or reasoning. It is only through the Spirit of God that the Word of God is understood.

Jesus said it is the Spirit of truth that teaches us all things.

A time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.
- John 4:23-24
My way of trying to understand Biblical passages that are left open on details is to study ancient cultures pertaining to Biblical times where the passages are referring to. That, along with studying the translations from the ancient languages that the passages were written in during the first century or earlier as to what the actual entomological meanings were, or at least as close as we can get with todays knowledge level. Once all of the most accurate data is collected, I pray on what the data points to. Sometimes I "feel" the data has accurately depicted the true meaning of the passage and sometimes it still does not "feel" right. If it don't feel right, I continue to question it.

[RoBoTeq]

Oh brother..... You need secret coded phrases to decipher the true meaning of Gods message.....:confused:

Not at all. As a matter of fact, those who lived two thousand years ago understood Biblical passages better then we do today. Over the centuries Satan has been working hard to obscure the true details of Biblical teachings. With the changes in langquages, word usage and cultural understandings, what the Bible(s) have to tell us has been somewhat lost to antiquity. It is through the study of antiquity we will regain what has been lost.
[/quote]
Does it help when the moon is full, also.......:rolleyes:
Only if you are reading in at night without a light;)


I'm sure all the extra work you go through to prove you know the "message" will be appreciated....;)
Regaining what evil has caused to be hidden from us is important to the basic battle of good and evil. Just what are your intentions in this matter? If you are not interested in being helpful, why do you feel the need to be disruptive and rude to those of us who are seriously trying to sort out what we believe in?



Planet X will be here in a few years and perhaps The Rapture too......:cool:
Once again, why do you feel the need to be so hateful and rude to those of us of faith? Did we do something to offend you?

[Mr Bill]

Once again, why do you feel the need to be so hateful and rude to those of us of faith? Did we do something to offend you?


Maybe God will have the Burn Channel in Heaven and we will get to see a whole new lineup of stars, of course they will be short lived, like one show only, but hey maybe we can say I told that person so Lord, but all he did was make snide remarks about you and your word. :eek:

[RoBoTeq]

Maybe God will have the Burn Channel in Heaven and we will get to see a whole new lineup of stars, of course they will be short lived, like one show only, but hey maybe we can say I told that person so Lord, but all he did was make snide remarks about you and your word. :eek:
Ahhh, a conundrum. If we have made it to the proverbial Heaven, how would it look for us to be interested in watching others burn in Hell?

[sline-dawg]

Just what are your intentions in this matter? If you are not interested in being helpful, why do you feel the need to be disruptive and rude to those of us who are seriously trying to sort out what we believe in?



To gain insight and possibly learn why we are ...:)

I'm really not rude....although it may come across that way.... I don't type well....:o Those quips are just meant to be curve balls....:D

[bootlen]

Just annoyed at having to put up with zealots who think they know God better then anyone else. There is no reason for me to be angry over what I have no authority. Another name for those who magically know what Biblical text that is not clearly defined by the Bible is Gnostic. Are you a Gnostic?

Nope, not a Gnostic. And I don't think I know God better than anyone else. But He does reveal Himself through, among other things, Scripture. The books of Scripture are not a bunch of disjointed sayings and stories. They are a very well meshed dovetail of who God is, who we are, and what God plans and wants for us. But I'm sure you already are aware of that. The point is, one can know a lot about God and what He is saying through, first of all, placing one's faith in Christ; secondly, prayer; and thirdly, study of Scripture.

The Bible doesn't, you did, when you stated; And God asked where they were not for His sake but for ours...to help us realize we are spiritually lost.

Apparently you never got caught with your hand in the cookie jar.

Parent, upon catching child stealing a cookie: "What are you doing?"

Child, caught in the very act: "Nothing."

No deceit by the parent there, Robo. Just trying to make it clear to the child that confession is critical.

Do you really feel you have the right to speak for God?

For Him? No. He seems to do very well for Himself.

However, I AM compelled to speak OF Him. Apparently, so are you.