Churches To Loose Tax Free Status?

[the dangling wrangler]

Can anybody confirm this?

The congress has passed a bill That will be ratified upon the election of Obama to presidency!!!
ALL Non-profit entities will be required to turn over thier accounting and bookkeeping files to the Internal Revenue Service as soon as January 1, 2009
The Obama council has stated that this is the only way to balance the budget in the first 100 days of office, And congress has agreed!

[coolwhip]

B.O. aside, I think this is an excellent idea!

[the dangling wrangler]

B.O. aside, I think this is an excellent idea!

Yes, it is. It should have happened a long time ago.

[JRINJAX]

If BO is doing it, it will be a very "selective" process where Acorn is given a "pass" and Chritian Churches will be penalized.

[wolfstrike]

that's what i love about country going backwards, its good entertainment before the guns come out.


1) the government can not recognize the establishment religion,and therefor legally can not tax it, and sure as FCK has no say in it.

2) the want to penalize the only form of charity that does anything, the churches.
(the churches showed up to the victims of Katrina when the government was nowhere to be seen)

3) they want to tax the churches out of pure spite for Christianity

4) they want to tax Christianity while Hollywood film making is increasingly becoming more tax free

[JRINJAX]

that's what i love about country going backwards, its good entertainment before the guns come out.


1) the government can not recognize the establishment religion,and therefor legally can not tax it, and sure as FCK has no say in it.

2) the want to penalize the only form of charity that does anything, the churches.
(the churches showed up to the victims of Katrina when the government was nowhere to be seen)

3) they want to tax the churches out of pure spite for Christianity

4) they want to tax Christianity while Hollywood film making is increasingly becoming more tax free

I am afraid that a Conservative like you living in California will eventually end up "next" to Jimmy Hoffa. I am always telling a good friend [who is a Conservative that lives in Napa] "Its time to get out".
Be careful out there....

[wolfstrike]

i tried to move to Nevada but that was a whole other can of worms.


..and i found it more heartbreaking to watch the people of Nevada lose their freedoms as Clark County's big money switches the state over to socialism, then it was to live in California's socialist state.

i had already lived through a take-over in California

[hvacker]

Just more fear tactics.
Churches have been protected as long as we've been a country.
The way to loose a tax non-profit status is to mix religion and politics. The deal was stay out of politics and the government won't tax you.
It was very important to Jefferson to keep a pure vision of the idea of our country. With churches involved the Spanish Inquisition would still be going on.
It seems many out there ( self proclamed men of God ) don't know when to shut up. They deserve to loose it.
Keep in mind, only Congress can write the laws not the President. Fear mongering is just a last ditch effort for votes.

We could also turn this argument around and immagine Government involved in what Churches could do.

[Pneuma]

that's what i love about country going backwards, its good entertainment before the guns come out.


1) the government can not recognize the establishment religion,and therefor legally can not tax it, and sure as FCK has no say in it.

How can the government grant a church tax exempt status without recognizing it. Doesn't the church have to obtain a tax exempt number? The government cannot establish a religion it absolutley does recognize them.

I think the whole tax exempt thing in many cases is just a tax loophole for a lot of unscruplulous people and unfortunately churches and charities may have to go through a lot of accounting stuff because of it. In this case Churches are victims but not of the government, they are victims of people who are scamming the system.

[bootlen]

Go ahead. Tax 'em. THEN you WILL hear politics from the pulpit.

THAT should shut up a lot of libs.

[RoBoTeq]

I've never understood how organizations that are allowed to own assets are not required to pay taxes. I say allow religous organizations a percentage of their annual income as tax exempt as long as they spend that amount within the next year. Otherwise; ever dime not put toward charitible activities should be taxed.

[The Doctor]

Just more fear tactics.
Churches have been protected as long as we've been a country.
The way to loose a tax non-profit status is to mix religion and politics. The deal was stay out of politics and the government won't tax you.
It was very important to Jefferson to keep a pure vision of the idea of our country. With churches involved the Spanish Inquisition would still be going on.Talk about fear tactics. Have you ever thought why hospitals and missions across our nation by and large have Christian names? Is it because of an inquisition?

It seems many out there ( self proclamed men of God ) don't know when to shut up. They deserve to loose it.
Keep in mind, only Congress can write the laws not the President. Fear mongering is just a last ditch effort for votes.

We could also turn this argument around and immagine Government involved in what Churches could do.

[JRINJAX]

My feelings are that a Church should not be taxed on anything that is essential to it's ministry, whether or not it supports INTERNAL political discussion. This does not include any financial support of politicians or advocacy groups. If they want lawyers and lobbyists, let them pay taxes.

They should not own anything tax-free that is outside the direct sphere of necessity for their ministry.

I still remember when the worlds largest denomination owned local filling stations and other commercial real estate tax free.

They/their tenants were competing against owner-operators that had to pay taxes. The still own undeveloped waterfront real-estate here in Jax.

I don't think profit making business/organizations such as Planned Parenthood should use a religious type tax exemption such as they do. Ending the lives of unborn Children is no more a charitable service than operating a slaughterhouse [actually more like a concentration camp].

[acmanko]

Just stop titheing from being a individuals tax dedudtion. that should put churches on the right track

[bootlen]

Just stop titheing from being a individuals tax dedudtion. that should put churches on the right track

I have to agree with that. That way, only those who are seriously obedient will tithe, attendance would likely drop off, and only those churches that are Bible believing churches will survive because God will see to it.

BTW, AC. I see through your attempt to raise hackles. It is obvious that it was your only reason for the post but you have, in fact, unwittingly stated truth. Typical of non-believers.

[acmanko]

I have to agree with that. That way, only those who are seriously obedient will tithe, attendance would likely drop off, and only those churches that are Bible believing churches will survive because God will see to it.

BTW, AC. I see through your attempt to raise hackles. It is obvious that it was your only reason for the post but you have, in fact, unwittingly stated truth. Typical of non-believers.
actually it was one of my well thought out posts, and i agree with what you say

[whec720]

Just more fear tactics.
Churches have been protected as long as we've been a country.
The way to loose a tax non-profit status is to mix religion and politics. The deal was stay out of politics and the government won't tax you.
It was very important to Jefferson to keep a pure vision of the idea of our country. With churches involved the Spanish Inquisition would still be going on.
It seems many out there ( self proclamed men of God ) don't know when to shut up. They deserve to loose it.
Keep in mind, only Congress can write the laws not the President. Fear mongering is just a last ditch effort for votes.

We could also turn this argument around and immagine Government involved in what Churches could do.

This guy mixes religion and politics at the church he is affiliated with. Guess they loose there tax non-profit status, right? Fair is fair.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2008/images/03/21/art.wrightnew.jpg

[Pneuma]

This guy mixes religion and politics at the church he is affiliated with. Guess they loose there tax non-profit status, right? Fair is fair.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2008/images/03/21/art.wrightnew.jpg

Since when are churches not allowed to have an opinion on politics? The Pope makes public speeches regarding political issues. Churches can make whatever political statement they want. The establishment clause has to do with the US government sponsoring a particular religion. It does not tell religions how they are to behave or what they can do or what they can or can't say. Reverend Wright, can say whateve he wants to his congregation, not that I defend what he says, but there is nothing about the tax exempt law or the establishment clause that says he has to stick to the bible when he is at the pulpit.

The laws regarding tax exemption have a set of rules also, and anyone who files to be tax exempt must follow those rules and this includes Churches. If anyone thinks the tax exempt rules are not scammed and abused I got a broidge to nowhere to sell you. This thread started by saying that Congress is going to look into this and require auditing to root out the abuse and I can't figure why that is a bad thing, even from a conservative point of view.

[RoBoTeq]

Since when are churches not allowed to have an opinion on politics? The Pope makes public speeches regarding political issues. Churches can make whatever political statement they want. The establishment clause has to do with the US government sponsoring a particular religion. It does not tell religions how they are to behave or what they can do or what they can or can't say. Reverend Wright, can say whateve he wants to his congregation, not that I defend what he says, but there is nothing about the tax exempt law or the establishment clause that says he has to stick to the bible when he is at the pulpit.

The laws regarding tax exemption have a set of rules also, and anyone who files to be tax exempt must follow those rules and this includes Churches. If anyone thinks the tax exempt rules are not scammed and abused I got a broidge to nowhere to sell you. This thread started by saying that Congress is going to look into this and require auditing to root out the abuse and I can't figure why that is a bad thing, even from a conservative point of view.
A churches one and only True mission is to tell the Good News of Salvation. Church buildings, Synagogues, Mosques, Temples and whatever type of structure that is used by the faithful are not the defining factor of the faithful. Therefore, no tax exemption should apply.

When leaders of a faith based ministry get involved with politics, they are no longer doing God's work but rather they are doing the works of man and they should pay man's taxes.

[Pneuma]

A churches one and only True mission is to tell the Good News of Salvation. Church buildings, Synagogues, Mosques, Temples and whatever type of structure that is used by the faithful are not the defining factor of the faithful. Therefore, no tax exemption should apply.

When leaders of a faith based ministry get involved with politics, they are no longer doing God's work but rather they are doing the works of man and they should pay man's taxes.

I'll resist debating the true mission of a Church, that's a really big subject.:D

However as far as tax exemption goes, I'm not at all opposed to looking at that law to see if it makes sense for a Church or anyone to be tax exempt.

But the fact is, Churches can legally talk politics and be tax exempt.


Well here is a link about how it all got started http://en.allexperts.com/q/Nonprofit-Law-2266/history-tax-exempt-orgs.htm

What they are basically saying is if Churches and Charities didn;t do these things the Government would have to. So its sort of socialsim by subcontract!

"One federal court
wrote that the reason for the charitable contribution deduction has “histori-
cally been that by doing so, the Government relieves itself of the burden of
meeting public needs which in the absence of charitable activity would fall on
21
the shoulders of the Government.”

[mrs reb77]

Maybe you should read this http://www.christianitytoday.com/yc/8y4/8y4060.html

or this http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/07/AR2008090702460_pf.html

[Pneuma]

That article brought up some good points, churches taking out ads in papers, printing poilitical brochures. All of that I would consider crossing the line as it takes money to do those things and tax exempt money is worth more than taxed money, clearly that's crossing a line. I'll also have to agree churches can go too far politically with just speech, but that is harder line to find and enforce. Having a Sunday school class that debates modern poltical subjects like abortion laws or war or even poltical candidates is not crossing any lines. Having a pastor say from the pulpit that a particular candidates stance on abortion, for example, is not in accordance with the Church's doctrines, I think that has to be ok.

Again I'd just as soon look at it from the tax exempt saide and say does it make any sense to have that even for churches.

[JRINJAX]

My Church, by being a fairly large one [6K members] is very cautious about anything that could be construed as partisan-political. We have members that are employed by the IRS and many other Government Officials.

Our Pastor knows that he is in the cross-hairs and uses Biblical reading and principles to contrast to today's headlines.

I really think he should be able to say any thing he wants inside of the church and then let the members carry the message into the community where they live.

[wolfstrike]

church pastors have the right to say whatever they want, including telling you how to vote.

its up to you if you want to be an idiot and let someone tell you how to vote.

this is another rule the government pulled out of it's ass.


to even buy into the theory the church doesn't have a right to tell people how to vote, is to believe that church goes are mindless

[RoBoTeq]

I'll resist debating the true mission of a Church, that's a really big subject.:D

However as far as tax exemption goes, I'm not at all opposed to looking at that law to see if it makes sense for a Church or anyone to be tax exempt.

But the fact is, Churches can legally talk politics and be tax exempt.


Well here is a link about how it all got started http://en.allexperts.com/q/Nonprofit-Law-2266/history-tax-exempt-orgs.htm

What they are basically saying is if Churches and Charities didn;t do these things the Government would have to. So its sort of socialsim by subcontract!

"One federal court
wrote that the reason for the charitable contribution deduction has “histori-
cally been that by doing so, the Government relieves itself of the burden of
meeting public needs which in the absence of charitable activity would fall on
21
the shoulders of the Government.”
The "church" is the group of the faithful, not the religious organization that has deemed what it should be doing. The "church", as in "the faithful", are only to tell the Good News of Salvation.

Since when does what is legal have anything to do with what is right? We know it is currently legal for religious organizations to not pay taxes and still be able to discuss whatever they want. That is the problem, they should not be exempt from paying taxes. They are just organizations and they have real assets, therefore they should be paying taxes.

Unfortunately, our government keeps taking over things that religious organizations used to take care of because Socialists in our government want citizens to become passive sheep being taken care of without having to have moral or theological values.

We need to get civic programs back into the hands of religious organizations and tax those organizations on all but monies that go directly to the needy.

[acmanko]

The "church" is the group of the faithful, not the religious organization that has deemed what it should be doing. The "church", as in "the faithful", are only to tell the Good News of Salvation.

Since when does what is legal have anything to do with what is right? We know it is currently legal for religious organizations to not pay taxes and still be able to discuss whatever they want. That is the problem, they should not be exempt from paying taxes. They are just organizations and they have real assets, therefore they should be paying taxes.

Unfortunately, our government keeps taking over things that religious organizations used to take care of because Socialists in our government want citizens to become passive sheep being taken care of without having to have moral or theological values.

We need to get civic programs back into the hands of religious organizations and tax those organizations on all but monies that go directly to the needy. the government takes over because evangelical conservatives have infiltrated churches, and without any christ like atrributes, fail to do Gods work.

[Pneuma]

The "church" is the group of the faithful, not the religious organization that has deemed what it should be doing. The "church", as in "the faithful", are only to tell the Good News of Salvation.

Since when does what is legal have anything to do with what is right? We know it is currently legal for religious organizations to not pay taxes and still be able to discuss whatever they want. That is the problem, they should not be exempt from paying taxes. They are just organizations and they have real assets, therefore they should be paying taxes.

Unfortunately, our government keeps taking over things that religious organizations used to take care of because Socialists in our government want citizens to become passive sheep being taken care of without having to have moral or theological values.

We need to get civic programs back into the hands of religious organizations and tax those organizations on all but monies that go directly to the needy.

the needy? How do you define needy. I'm needy, send me some money!

[hvacker]

This guy mixes religion and politics at the church he is affiliated with. Guess they loose there tax non-profit status, right? Fair is fair.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2008/images/03/21/art.wrightnew.jpg

I don't know, A lot of people would like to shut him up.
I guess what will have to be decided is where freedom speech ends and involvement in the political process starts.
As I remember the deal it was predicated on the churches involvement with the poor, the widows and orphans. If they weren't taxed they could continue with their good works. Things were probably a lot cheaper then.
How would you judge Rev. Martin Luther Kings marches in the 60's. Justice based on his religious beliefs or religion getting involved in politics?
Some churches today don't seem different from any other profit motivated corporation and they don't seem to want to right the worlds wrongs for sure.

[bootlen]

The "church" is the group of the faithful, not the religious organization that has deemed what it should be doing. The "church", as in "the faithful", are only to tell the Good News of Salvation.

Since when does what is legal have anything to do with what is right? We know it is currently legal for religious organizations to not pay taxes and still be able to discuss whatever they want. That is the problem, they should not be exempt from paying taxes. They are just organizations and they have real assets, therefore they should be paying taxes.

Unfortunately, our government keeps taking over things that religious organizations used to take care of because Socialists in our government want citizens to become passive sheep being taken care of without having to have moral or theological values.

We need to get civic programs back into the hands of religious organizations and tax those organizations on all but monies that go directly to the needy.

Here's the deal, Robo. Why would it even have been a consideration to make churches tax exempt? Because the church's contribution to the well-being society far outweighs and possible tax collections. (Please keep in mind that I understand that the Catholic Church has done great harm to society by concealing certain priests. But I do not consider the Catholic Church...[b]capital "c" in church, denoting the heirarchy of Catholicism...to be part of Christ's church. There I've said it and stand by it. Anybody who wants to argue start another thread and I'll be glad to discuss it. Just be prepared to be PO'ed or hurt.) Yes, political policy may be discussed from the pulpit. BUT, support for given candidates may not be. I'm okay with that as is every preacher I've known except irreverant Wright. After all, it's perverted doctrine and bad/poor policy that are harmful, and not flesh and blood.

Make churches taxable? Sure. That's a sure fire next step to putting more power in the hands of gummint. It's donations...tax deductible ones...to churches, as well as other charitable entities that feed , clothe, and house uncounted thousands across the country. Go ahead. Hand that authority over to the gummint. But you're only working against all that you profess.

[RoBoTeq]

Here's the deal, Robo. Why would it even have been a consideration to make churches tax exempt? Because the church's contribution to the well-being society far outweighs and possible tax collections. (Please keep in mind that I understand that the Catholic Church has done great harm to society by concealing certain priests. But I do not consider the Catholic Church...[b]capital "c" in church, denoting the heirarchy of Catholicism...to be part of Christ's church. There I've said it and stand by it. Anybody who wants to argue start another thread and I'll be glad to discuss it. Just be prepared to be PO'ed or hurt.) Yes, political policy may be discussed from the pulpit. BUT, support for given candidates may not be. I'm okay with that as is every preacher I've known except irreverant Wright. After all, it's perverted doctrine and bad/poor policy that are harmful, and not flesh and blood.

Make churches taxable? Sure. That's a sure fire next step to putting more power in the hands of gummint. It's donations...tax deductible ones...to churches, as well as other charitable entities that feed , clothe, and house uncounted thousands across the country. Go ahead. Hand that authority over to the gummint. But you're only working against all that you profess.
The way it has been for decades with religious organizations enjoying tax exempt status has created a very expensive loophole that is being taken advantage of by many.

I used to have a sheet metal shop in the inner city of Baltimore. An elderly Black auto mechanic across the alley from my shop had tax exempt status by holding weekly "Bible" meetings which amounted to he, Reverend White, and a couple of his buddies drinking beer all night. Every other business owner in poor Black neighborhoods is a Reverend.

If we keep contributions up to 10% of earnings to religious organizations tax deductable but require religious organizations to pay taxes on all monies that cannot be shown to have been directly used to help others or promote the direct teachings of the religion, we could greatly decrease the abuse and add millions to the government's general coffers.

[bootlen]

Good point. However, no matter what system we are talking about, abuse is there. It is a result of a fallen world. But to tax churches because there is abuse in some would be similar to jailing someone when there is reasonable doubt of their guilt.

So how should that be addressed? Investigations. Audits. Not really that difficult. After all, you are aware of your neighbor's abuse just through casual observation.

[sysint]

The "church" is the group of the faithful, not the religious organization that has deemed what it should be doing. The "church", as in "the faithful", are only to tell the Good News of Salvation. Can you support that with scripture?

[JRINJAX]

Can you support that with scripture?
I was thinking the same thing. I seem to have read about Christ making the blind see, the Lame walk and the hungry fed. He also said to me to "pick up thy cross and follow me". Christ was not big on just telling people what to do, he would show them what the power of God was to be used for.

There are a lot of local Churches here [including mine] which have or support rescue missions that consist of a inner city shelter/soup kitchen and then a rural farm.

The druggies hear the Gospel of Christ at the rescue mission and then make a choice of "remain the same or repent". If they choose to repent, they are taken to the farm and they work their butts off [and learn farming]. The food they grow feeds them and defers some of the cost of their much-needed medical/dental care.

This is a much better solution than the Government's, just handing them a check and paying someone to bury them when they OD on drugs/alcohol.

[acmanko]

I was thinking the same thing. I seem to have read about Christ making the blind see, the Lame walk and the hungry fed. He also said to me to "pick up thy cross and follow me". Christ was not big on just telling people what to do, he would show them what the power of God was to be used for.

There are a lot of local Churches here [including mine] which have or support rescue missions that consist of a inner city shelter/soup kitchen and then a rural farm.

The druggies hear the Gospel of Christ at the rescue mission and then make a choice of "remain the same or repent". If they choose to repent, they are taken to the farm and they work their butts off [and learn farming]. The food they grow feeds them and defers some of the cost of their much-needed medical/dental care.

This is a much better solution than the Government's, just handing them a check and paying someone to bury them when they OD on drugs/alcohol.Slavery was banned during the War of Northern Aggression.
surely they get paid. this sounds similar to the Yearning for Zion ranch in west Texas.

[Some Dude]

Cant we talk about killing baby seals instead? wow religion and polotics at the same time, im not saying another word.

[JRINJAX]

Slavery was banned during the War of Northern Aggression.
surely they get paid. this sounds similar to the Yearning for Zion ranch in west Texas. Sure they get some pay, but mostly they support themselves in a "clean" lifestyle. They can only stay on the farm for so long to make room for others who need to get clean [pharmaceutically and spiritually].

[acmanko]

Sure they get some pay, but mostly they support themselves in a "clean" lifestyle. They can only stay on the farm for so long to make room for others who need to get clean [pharmaceutically and spiritually]. OK,sounds good .

[JRINJAX]

Cant we talk about killing baby seals instead? wow religion and polotics at the same time, im not saying another word.

I realize that the possibility of a changed life is "scary" to some. I was once that way, but now I understand what true Joy is. Would not trade it for anything.

Just like the commercial on TV, "Try it, you will like it".

[acmanko]

Cant we talk about killing baby seals instead? wow religion and polotics at the same time, im not saying another word.
what, you want polar bears to lose their livelihood, they have to eat too.

[the mojo]

Can you support that with scripture?

Matthew 24: 45,46,47

[sysint]

I know who you are and why you would think this. However, this is not answering the question to the point of the statement Robo made. Further, it is an assumption, or a claim with no ability to prove by any person or people making the claim. My personal opinion is that it would be more prudent to state this is what a person or people is trying to be or maintain, but not be so bold to state they in fact are. Unless of course a person or people have some direct divine communication they can document telling them otherwise.

Matt 7:21
Mark 9:38-40

[Pneuma]

The "church" is the group of the faithful, not the religious organization that has deemed what it should be doing. The "church", as in "the faithful", are only to tell the Good News of Salvation.

The Church as I understand it is the body of Christ here on earth and we are here to spread the good news but also feed the sheep and love our nieghbors as we love our selves, fight for the widow, stand up for justice and the list goes on. That is the Christian Church. But of course we rightly cherish the freedom and liberty of anyone to follow the religion of their choosing.

In reality the income tax should be abolished and that would take care of any need to be exempt from it. There does need to be some sort of taxes to pasy for some government services, but I'd rather have some sort of flat tax or consutmption tax, that applies equally to everyone.

[bootlen]

Exactly. Now if you'd just drive over and try to explain that to the numbskulls at the intersection of Pennsylvania and Maryland, I'd be most appreciative.

[dec]

A churches one and only True mission is to tell the Good News of Salvation. Church buildings, Synagogues, Mosques, Temples and whatever type of structure that is used by the faithful are not the defining factor of the faithful. Therefore, no tax exemption should apply.

When leaders of a faith based ministry get involved with politics, they are no longer doing God's work but rather they are doing the works of man and they should pay man's taxes.

Gotta go with ROBO on this one :D

[sysint]

Robo has a misunderstanding of this concept.

1 Corinthians 14:40 But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way. NIV

And they did this: 1 Timothy 3 is all about the congregation talking about deacons and overseers. And Christ talks to the congregations in Revelation.

The early Christians did in fact have churches and organization of them. They did many things in the congregations to help people but the main objective was preaching commanded by Jesus. Matt 28:19,20 Mark 13:10

This was not really about salvation as it was about a kingdom. Personal salvation is secondary. Matt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. -NIV

Interesting many churches today concentrate on the personal salvation part and don't talk anything about the kingdom. However, that's not what is written.

Anyway, Robo's thoughts about the church are wrong. However, I just as soon see churches taxed anyway.

[bigtime]

First off, I voted for McCain, think taxes are to high, and the government is to big.

There seems to be a lot of people that think if you work, pay taxes, and dont get a check from the government, that you are pulling the wagon. The mindset is that you send money to the government, the gov gives it away, and you get nothing in return. A small percentage of your taxes are "redistributed" to those that do not work. Most of the money funds things that benefit you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Fy2008spendingbycategory.png

The federal budget is roughly 3 trillon dollaras and there are roughly 300 mil people in the USA. That is $10,000 per person. If you make 60k or so a year, have 10k in mort interest, and a few kids, you are getting a ride in the wagon, wether you realize it or not.

Appreciate the good life and freedom you have.

[bigtime]

I meant to make the above post a new thread. Mod, please make this a new thread if possible.

[sysint]

First off, I voted for McCain, think taxes are to high, and the government is to big.

There seems to be a lot of people that think if you work, pay taxes, and dont get a check from the government, that you are pulling the wagon. The mindset is that you send money to the government, the gov gives it away, and you get nothing in return. A small percentage of your taxes are "redistributed" to those that do not work. Most of the money funds things that benefit you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Fy2008spendingbycategory.png

The federal budget is roughly 3 trillon dollaras and there are roughly 300 mil people in the USA. That is $10,000 per person. If you make 60k or so a year, have 10k in mort interest, and a few kids, you are getting a ride in the wagon, wether you realize it or not.

Appreciate the good life and freedom you have. Well 1840.3 of it needs serious reconsideration. So that's more than half of it right there that is really screwed up. If they could get 30% better there (which should be easily done) then they could wipe out the 261 on debt payment really quickly and we should be in the black in no time. Something tells me that isn't happening.

I agree, this is off topic and needs to move.

[hvacker]

In my business I have to have supporting documentation on my claims of write offs. Shouldn't the churches prove they are involved in good works to justify their tax status?
Some just build testimonials to themselves.
The deal was with Jefferson they wouldn't be taxed because of good works and stay out of the government.
I say have them prove it like I have to. A lot of churches are well known for good works but I wonder about these mega-churches. What good works do they do. I also don't think the original idea of starting a church was to get rich.

[whec720]

In my business I have to have supporting documentation on my claims of write offs. Shouldn't the churches prove they are involved in good works to justify their tax status?
Some just build testimonials to themselves.
The deal was with Jefferson they wouldn't be taxed because of good works and stay out of the government.
I say have them prove it like I have to. A lot of churches are well known for good works but I wonder about these mega-churches. What good works do they do. I also don't think the original idea of starting a church was to get rich.

Your last sentence, I can agree.


“In the temple he found people selling cattle, sheep, and doves, and the money changers seated at their tables. Making a whip of cords, he drove all of them out of the temple, both the sheep and the cattle. He also poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.” John 2:14-15

[RoBoTeq]

Robo has a misunderstanding of this concept.

1 Corinthians 14:40 But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way. NIV

And they did this: 1 Timothy 3 is all about the congregation talking about deacons and overseers. And Christ talks to the congregations in Revelation.

The early Christians did in fact have churches and organization of them. They did many things in the congregations to help people but the main objective was preaching commanded by Jesus. Matt 28:19,20 Mark 13:10

This was not really about salvation as it was about a kingdom. Personal salvation is secondary. Matt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. -NIV

Interesting many churches today concentrate on the personal salvation part and don't talk anything about the kingdom. However, that's not what is written.

Anyway, Robo's thoughts about the church are wrong. However, I just as soon see churches taxed anyway.
Really? Maybe in the world according to man determined interpretations, but not in the world according to the Bible. While I may have oversimplified what I stated, I did clarify that the "churches" "True" mission was to tell of the Good News.

While mankind is supposed to take care of one anothers needs as a natural order of godliness, man's physical nature is quite secondary to the spirit of man and that spirit's eternal life after man's physical being has departed the Creation of physical existance. If we simply follow Jesus's command to love one another as He loves us, we will have no choice but to do all of the civic good that is needed to help one another. To make specific commands of us to do specific deeds would be quite redundant.

Therefore, I stick to my comment that the churches true mission and only true requirement is to tell of the Good News of Salvation.

As for the what the Bible states is the church, in literally every one of 118 times the ancient Greek word "ekklesia" (English translation "church") is used, it refers to a congregation of people. 114 times this Greek word refers to an assembly and the rest of the times it refers to the church, ie; the people of the faith.


A church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/church) is an association of people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groups_of_people) who share a particular belief system, particularly used in Christianity (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Christianity). The Christian concept "Church" (Greek εκκλησία — ekklesia, ref. Strong's Concordance — 1577) is mentioned in the New Testament, of the 114 occurrences. The Greek term εκκλησία — ekklesia, which literally means a "convocation", was a governmental and political term, used to denote a national assembly.

[sysint]

Any "Good News of Salvation" is not "the gospel of the kingdom" or even "the good news of the kingdom".

Further, the congregations had overseers and deacons. The congregation also had a head because they made a decision regarding circumcision and conveyed that to the congregation(s).

That is according to the Bible and I've used nothing but scriptures. So, why you state: "but not in the world according to the Bible" can't hold enough weight here. Conversely, I'm still waiting for yours... for comparison purposes.

[RoBoTeq]

Any "Good News of Salvation" is not "the gospel of the kingdom" or even "the good news of the kingdom".

Further, the congregations had overseers and deacons. The congregation also had a head because they made a decision regarding circumcision and conveyed that to the congregation(s).

That is according to the Bible and I've used nothing but scriptures. So, why you state: "but not in the world according to the Bible" can't hold enough weight here. Conversely, I'm still waiting for yours... for comparison purposes.
I don't understand what you are trying to justify here. I gave you 118 Biblical reasons to realize that the "church" is a gathering of people and not a building or an organization.

The Good News of Salvation "is" the Good News of the Kingdom of God.

[Pneuma]

Robo,

Not to make any particular point about this discussion...it's just an intersting video on the subject. The first link is part 1 and then part 2 This guy makes great vids IMHO. I hope they play all the way throguh


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbEPU4oxiVs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKpDNoIZeas

[bootlen]

Great links, Pneuma.

[sysint]

The Good News of Salvation "is" the Good News of the Kingdom of God.No it is not. Salvation is simply an attribute of benefit of the Kingdom of God. Use your Strong's and define what this "kingdom of God" means.

[RoBoTeq]

Robo,

Not to make any particular point about this discussion...it's just an intersting video on the subject. The first link is part 1 and then part 2 This guy makes great vids IMHO. I hope they play all the way throguh


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbEPU4oxiVs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKpDNoIZeas
Interesting thoughts, but just that; the thoughts of this person. I can't say I agree or disagree because neither I nor anyone else knows what may or may not have been going through the minds of peoples 2,000 years ago. One thing we must keep in mind, this guy is putting today's concepts into the minds of believers who lived in a very different culture under very different circumstances with very different belief systems.

While his concept of what early Christian may have been thinking is warm and fuzzy, we just don't know it to be accurate. Remember what the Bible tells us how followers of Jesus behaved directly after His crucifixion? They all just went back to their old lives, or if they were close to Jesus and being sought out by the Romans, they hid for their lives. The indication is that between Jesus's death and resurrection, His followers gave up on Him.

This certainly doesn't sound like people thinking all of the convoluted, theologically deep thoughts that this guy is suggesting.

[RoBoTeq]

No it is not. Salvation is simply an attribute of benefit of the Kingdom of God. Use your Strong's and define what this "kingdom of God" means.
What are you talking about? Strong's Concordance does not define phrases.

Does the Kingdom of God occur through the Salvation of believers? Is it not through Salvation that the Kingdom of God is achieved? Why make God's will more complicated then it has to be only to create more contraversy over God's will? Why?! Because that is how Satan gets us to be at odds with one another, that's why! Keep it simple. If it causes contention amongst believers, it is most likely not from God.

[RoBoTeq]

No it is not. Salvation is simply an attribute of benefit of the Kingdom of God. Use your Strong's and define what this "kingdom of God" means.
I don't know why you want me to define "kingdom" as per the Biblical meanings, but here goes;

In the Greek language used in the New Testament, the word translated to "kingdom" is "basileia", which means "royalty", "ruler" etc. Basileia is an abstract noun, meaning it is not a physical place, but a general area or realm. In the phrase "kingdom of God", basileia refers to the realm of God's rule, not a place.

You may be confusing the Hebrew (Old) Testament Hebrew translations to the English word "kingdom". The most prominent of the Hebrew words translated as "kingdom" is "mamlakah", which means dominion, estate, country etc. This is not the term used to describe the "kingdom of God and Jesus".

The kingdom of God is conceptual and not a physical place, at least according to Biblical references of it. God Created the physical world, but aside from God's time on Earth in the body of Jesus of Nazareth, God is not a physical entity. Therefore, why should we perceive the kingdom of God as being a physical entity?

We are spirits on a temporary physical journey. We were born into the physical world and we will die out of the physical world. Our spiritual being will live forever, either with God (heavenly) or without God (hell). Heaven and hell would also be conceptual since they are also not of a physical nature.

[gruntly]

I tried but I could only read so much...

As I see it in my little corner: A church that's out to turn a profit should be taxed, but a church that uses every last dime shouldn't be. True or false?

I think the purpose to taxing churches is to prove they have returned all their proceeds back into the church, community or their own charity work. It merely makes sure no-one is ripping the people off. The only real pain should come from having to maintain better books for the end of the year.

[RoBoTeq]

I tried but I could only read so much...

As I see it in my little corner: A church that's out to turn a profit should be taxed, but a church that uses every last dime shouldn't be. True or false?

I think the purpose to taxing churches is to prove they have returned all their proceeds back into the church, community or their own charity work. It merely makes sure no-one is ripping the people off. The only real pain should come from having to maintain better books for the end of the year.
This is similar to what I have said, only I actually feel that church organizations should be taxed on all money not used in directly charitable ways and deduct all monies that have been used in charitable ways.

No, I do not consider gold gilded steeples or properties that are being rented out to be charitable entities.

[gruntly]

This is similar to what I have said, only I actually feel that church organizations should be taxed on all money not used in directly charitable ways and deduct all monies that have been used in charitable ways.

Paying the priest, rev, rabbi, whoever is an expense, so is repairs to the existing church, rectory, etc. These should be tax deductible.


No, I do not consider gold gilded steeples or properties that are being rented out to be charitable entities.

Nor do I, but that becomes a cosmetic upgrade or increase in asset value for the purpose of increasing the value or profit of the church, don't you think? These purchases come out of "profit" which should be taxable prior to use?
It basically means the church needs to run more like a business with the laws governing business.

Like any business, intake vs. expense = profit, which should be taxable. As mentioned though, the crimp in all this is the charitable work and how it is defined: as an overhead expense or a out of profit expense.

Some very sticky laws will have to be written. No, gold gilt should not be an expense, but a cosmetic, out of profit expense, but suppose the church can prove they needed a new roof and gold gilt lasts longer than any other roof... (Does a new roof need to be amortized over a few years or can it be expensed all at once?) It will get weird, I'm sure, with many people complaining up front.

[bootlen]

Remember what the Bible tells us how followers of Jesus behaved directly after His crucifixion? They all just went back to their old lives, or if they were close to Jesus and being sought out by the Romans, they hid for their lives. The indication is that between Jesus's death and resurrection, His followers gave up on Him.


Of course they "gave up". They were told to go back to their daily lives until Pentecost. But Man has ALWAYS given up on God. Man has NEVER sought after God. God has ALWAYS sought after man.

That was the purpose of Pentecost. To You might want to go back and read Acts. And also look into the deaths of the Apostles and 1st century Christians and why they died. They did not give UP ON God...they gave IN TO God.

[bootlen]

This is similar to what I have said, only I actually feel that church organizations should be taxed on all money not used in directly charitable ways and deduct all monies that have been used in charitable ways.


Isn't that the way the tax codes are currently set forth?

[sysint]

What are you talking about? Strong's Concordance does not define phrases.

Does the Kingdom of God occur through the Salvation of believers? Is it not through Salvation that the Kingdom of God is achieved? Why make God's will more complicated then it has to be only to create more contraversy over God's will? Why?! Because that is how Satan gets us to be at odds with one another, that's why! Keep it simple. If it causes contention amongst believers, it is most likely not from God. You are the one making it too complicated. Answer to question 1=NO. Answer to question 2=NO.

Matt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.-- NIV

Matt 24:14 and this good news of the reign shall be proclaimed in all the world, for a testimony to all the nations; and then shall the end arrive. --YLT

Matt 6:9 "This, then, is how you should pray: " 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. ---NIV

Matt 6:9 thus therefore pray ye: `Our Father who [art] in the heavens! hallowed be Thy name. 10`Thy reign come: Thy will come to pass, as in heaven also on the earth. --YLT

Now it should be easier for you to use your Strongs Concordance.
And, as long as you are looking I've quoted two instances of the "good news of the Kingdom". Quote your Biblical verses for the "good news of salvation" that you talk about. I'd certainly like to compare.

[RoBoTeq]

Of course they "gave up". They were told to go back to their daily lives until Pentecost. But Man has ALWAYS given up on God. Man has NEVER sought after God. God has ALWAYS sought after man.

That was the purpose of Pentecost. To You might want to go back and read Acts. And also look into the deaths of the Apostles and 1st century Christians and why they died. They did not give UP ON God...they gave IN TO God.
I'm a little dissapointed to read this from you boots. I seek God every day. It is my seeking God that allowed me to remove the veil of the physical nature in order for me to know God as I believe I do. God has sought us? Why? God is always there for us to be with, why would God need to seek us?

Give yourself ten minutes of silent prayer, say a bunch of hail Mary's, rub some beads, whip your back with spikes or whatever it is that opens your heart to God and then get back to me on this;).

[RoBoTeq]

Paying the priest, rev, rabbi, whoever is an expense, so is repairs to the existing church, rectory, etc. These should be tax deductible.



Nor do I, but that becomes a cosmetic upgrade or increase in asset value for the purpose of increasing the value or profit of the church, don't you think? These purchases come out of "profit" which should be taxable prior to use?
It basically means the church needs to run more like a business with the laws governing business.

Like any business, intake vs. expense = profit, which should be taxable. As mentioned though, the crimp in all this is the charitable work and how it is defined: as an overhead expense or a out of profit expense.

Some very sticky laws will have to be written. No, gold gilt should not be an expense, but a cosmetic, out of profit expense, but suppose the church can prove they needed a new roof and gold gilt lasts longer than any other roof... (Does a new roof need to be amortized over a few years or can it be expensed all at once?) It will get weird, I'm sure, with many people complaining up front.
Church organizations of today just business's, some of them quite the big business's. The evil corruption in governments along with the basic even corruption of the greed and desire for power of man have created religious organizations, not a faith in God.

[RoBoTeq]

Isn't that the way the tax codes are currently set forth?
Not even close. These multi-million dollar extravaganzas were built completely tax free; http://l.yimg.com/g/images/spaceball.gif

http://l.yimg.com/g/images/spaceball.gif
http://www.flickr.com/photos/7355435@N04/2370997016/

http://image02.webshots.com/2/5/87/37/43058737BqBMEg_fs.jpg
http://l.yimg.com/g/images/spaceball.gif

http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/8103138.jpg



http://l.yimg.com/g/images/spaceball.gif
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/shuls/USAAdasIsrael.jpg

Not to mention the millions of dollars of tax free money in upkeep for these buildings.

[RoBoTeq]

You are the one making it too complicated. Answer to question 1=NO. Answer to question 2=NO.

Matt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.-- NIV

Matt 24:14 and this good news of the reign shall be proclaimed in all the world, for a testimony to all the nations; and then shall the end arrive. --YLT

Matt 6:9 "This, then, is how you should pray: " 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. ---NIV

Matt 6:9 thus therefore pray ye: `Our Father who [art] in the heavens! hallowed be Thy name. 10`Thy reign come: Thy will come to pass, as in heaven also on the earth. --YLT

Now it should be easier for you to use your Strongs Concordance.
And, as long as you are looking I've quoted two instances of the "good news of the Kingdom". Quote your Biblical verses for the "good news of salvation" that you talk about. I'd certainly like to compare.
I have over a dozen versions of Bibles I use for study but mostly refer to the NIV. It is your interpretation of the passages that differ, not the words. I try not to interpret passages but rather to understand them in the context of the time they were written and the specific people they were addressing. The same comment made to Christian followers in Romans can be very different in meaning then when made to believers in Hebrews.

[glennac]

Not even close. These multi-million dollar extravaganzas were built completely tax free; http://l.yimg.com/g/images/spaceball.gif

http://l.yimg.com/g/images/spaceball.gif
http://www.flickr.com/photos/7355435@N04/2370997016/

http://image02.webshots.com/2/5/87/37/43058737BqBMEg_fs.jpg
http://l.yimg.com/g/images/spaceball.gif

http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/8103138.jpg

Not to mention the millions of dollars of tax free money in upkeep for these buildings.

Yeah robo I can see you climbing the tower to shout out the daily calls to go for prayers in Arabic.

[RoBoTeq]

Yeah robo I can see you climbing the tower to shout out the daily calls to go for prayers in Arabic.
Hey...you've met me. Do I look like I'm climbing anything I don't have to?:D

[bootlen]

I'm a little dissapointed to read this from you boots. I seek God every day. It is my seeking God that allowed me to remove the veil of the physical nature in order for me to know God as I believe I do. God has sought us? Why? God is always there for us to be with, why would God need to seek us?

Give yourself ten minutes of silent prayer, say a bunch of hail Mary's, rub some beads, whip your back with spikes or whatever it is that opens your heart to God and then get back to me on this;).

Since the fall, God has sought man...not the other way around. Our Adamic nature is one of rebellion and selfishness. Only God is faithful and righteous. The fact that you are desirous to know more about Gods does not change what I've said. The indicated change is your very heart. It is unsaved man God seeks after: "I have come to seek and save the lost." God has captured you and what you are experiencing is the fruit of HIS labor...not yours. From the point of your salvation, any growth is fruit of His and your labor working together toward a common goal...riches untold awaiting you in eternity.

[21degrees]

The Lord has answered my prayers and is now going to tax the richest business in the world. I hope that is what I am hearing. At onetime their use to be more banks than churches, but now their are more churches than banks. They should be taxed like any other business, because that is essentially what they are and the god I know does'nt need money.;)

[sysint]

I have over a dozen versions of Bibles I use for study but mostly refer to the NIV. It is your interpretation of the passages that differ, not the words. I try not to interpret passages but rather to understand them in the context of the time they were written and the specific people they were addressing. The same comment made to Christian followers in Romans can be very different in meaning then when made to believers in Hebrews.
You keep talking about the "good news of Salvation". I talk about the "good news of the Kingdom". The phrase I used is in the Bible, as I quoted it directly from the NIV. YOUR phrase is not found in the NIV or any other Bible, but you now say it's my interpretation? You are the one changing the words, not me. It couldn't be more plain.

It's amazing to me you Bible guys don't seem to like what's actually written in the Bible. You want to make-up phrases that don't exist. It's the "good news of the kingdom", and Jesus taught people how to pray and he specifically mentions it so maybe you should be more concerned with the way he states things rather than your made up phrasing --- don't you think so?

[RoBoTeq]

Since the fall, God has sought man...not the other way around. Our Adamic nature is one of rebellion and selfishness. Only God is faithful and righteous. The fact that you are desirous to know more about Gods does not change what I've said. The indicated change is your very heart. It is unsaved man God seeks after: "I have come to seek and save the lost." God has captured you and what you are experiencing is the fruit of HIS labor...not yours. From the point of your salvation, any growth is fruit of His and your labor working together toward a common goal...riches untold awaiting you in eternity.
Whatever you say booty. Me? I'll keep on seeking because I know God is easy to find.;)

[bootlen]

Whatever you say booty. Me? I'll keep on seeking because I know God is easy to find.;)

That's sorta my point.

[RoBoTeq]

You keep talking about the "good news of Salvation". I talk about the "good news of the Kingdom". The phrase I used is in the Bible, as I quoted it directly from the NIV. YOUR phrase is not found in the NIV or any other Bible, but you now say it's my interpretation? You are the one changing the words, not me. It couldn't be more plain.

It's amazing to me you Bible guys don't seem to like what's actually written in the Bible. You want to make-up phrases that don't exist. It's the "good news of the kingdom", and Jesus taught people how to pray and he specifically mentions it so maybe you should be more concerned with the way he states things rather than your made up phrasing --- don't you think so?
Wow! You really are the kind that needs to have direct and specific verbage in order to come to a conclusion. Good thing you weren't a Black guy in Vietnam being told to "get down" when the bullets started flying. You'd be the one dancing in harms way:D

Are you saying that you don't believe that the New Testament teaches us Good News of Salvation?

[RoBoTeq]

That's sorta my point.
OK, so we are just looking at the coin from different viewpoints. It's still the same value, even if we are seeing different pictures.

[the dangling wrangler]

Hey Rob, just to change the subject for a minute, are you gonna be in Houston for Christmas this year? Or was that with the other folks?

[RoBoTeq]

Hey Rob, just to change the subject for a minute, are you gonna be in Houston for Christmas this year? Or was that with the other folks?
Am I rob?

If so, I don't do Christmas and have never been in Houston for the holidays. I will still be going to Houston for Amana business, but I am no longer employed by Goodman.

[the dangling wrangler]

Am I rob?

If so, I don't do Christmas and have never been in Houston for the holidays. I will still be going to Houston for Amana business, but I am no longer employed by Goodman.

Oh, thought you did. Well, when & if you do hit town, look Bill and myself up.

[RoBoTeq]

Oh, thought you did. Well, when & if you do hit town, look Bill and myself up.
I'll be looking forward to it. Maybe we can get classical to venture out as well.

[the dangling wrangler]

I'll be looking forward to it. Maybe we can get classical to venture out as well.

OK.

[sysint]

Wow! You really are the kind that needs to have direct and specific verbage in order to come to a conclusion. ...Are you saying that you don't believe that the New Testament teaches us Good News of Salvation?I would say you think that the Bible doesn't have to "say what it means or mean what it says".

How convenient for you to do whatever you want.

I suppose when you make a contract with a customer and the customer decides not to pay you because of their interpretation of the contract that you are OK with that? Something tells me that is not the case and you would appeal to a judge.

So now you have this god in the Bible that makes a contract with people. You can examine the details of that contract. It's rock solid the way it's written and your appeal is to the judge that had it written.

Since your phrase isn't in the Bible, the one I used is that you tried to equate to your own incorrect thought. What I'm suggesting is you figure that out first and then concern yourself about your thoughts. Where is the talk of your Salvation in the Lord's prayer? It's not mentioned. What it would be is an attribute related to that kingdom of god.

[the dangling wrangler]

Robo,check your PM.

[Richard Kletty]

FWIW, I agree with Sysint on this one.

[21degrees]

Does not apply hear. My post was removed. Nice to know your free to say what you want as long as someone else doesn't disagree.:mad:

[gruntly]

The Lord has answered my prayers and is now going to tax the richest business in the world. I hope that is what I am hearing. At onetime their use to be more banks than churches, but now their are more churches than banks. They should be taxed like any other business, because that is essentially what they are and the god I know does'nt need money.;)

Are you talking about post #73 or another one?

[jrbenny]

There have been no posts removed from this thread.

[the dangling wrangler]

Does not apply hear. My post was removed. Nice to know your free to say what you want as long as someone else doesn't disagree.:mad:

This is yours, isn't it?


The Lord has answered my prayers and is now going to tax the richest business in the world. I hope that is what I am hearing. At onetime their use to be more banks than churches, but now their are more churches than banks. They should be taxed like any other business, because that is essentially what they are and the god I know does'nt need money.

[jrbenny]

And freedom of speech does not apply here.

Posts are removed or edited if they violate our site rules.

However, no post was removed from this thread.

[the dangling wrangler]

I'm gonna blame it on Obama. ;)

[acmanko]

I'm gonna blame it on Obama. ;)
It is his fault, or at least 50% of it is. we can't forget Mr GW Bush yet,if ever.:D

[RoBoTeq]

I would say you think that the Bible doesn't have to "say what it means or mean what it says".

How convenient for you to do whatever you want.

I suppose when you make a contract with a customer and the customer decides not to pay you because of their interpretation of the contract that you are OK with that? Something tells me that is not the case and you would appeal to a judge.

So now you have this god in the Bible that makes a contract with people. You can examine the details of that contract. It's rock solid the way it's written and your appeal is to the judge that had it written.

Since your phrase isn't in the Bible, the one I used is that you tried to equate to your own incorrect thought. What I'm suggesting is you figure that out first and then concern yourself about your thoughts. Where is the talk of your Salvation in the Lord's prayer? It's not mentioned. What it would be is an attribute related to that kingdom of god.
Why are you making all of these assumptions (wrong, by the way) about me instead of answering my question? Are you saying that you don't believe that the New Testament teaches us Good News of Salvation?

[RoBoTeq]

FWIW, I agree with Sysint on this one.
I'm paying attention to what others believe because we are dealing with a faith based subject here. I am just not understanding how we as Christians are not expected to make telling others the Good News of Salvation a priority one evangelism in our lives.

I'm not an "onward Christian soldiers" kind of a Christian. I believe that seeking a physical kingdom, which the New Testament clearly does not refer to, is falling into Satan's trappings of getting us to do evil in the alleged name of our Lord and Saviour.

[RoBoTeq]

Does not apply hear. My post was removed. Nice to know your free to say what you want as long as someone else doesn't disagree.:mad:
I sometimes think I have been successful in posting when in fact I did something wrong or the system did not put my post through. I can't imagine any point of view that would be deleted for not being agreed with.

[21degrees]

I swore I went through 2 post on another thread and they are gone. Topic was with lusker. I wish I had drugs or booze to blame it on.:eek: I guess work is wearing me down.

[the dangling wrangler]

I swore I went through 2 post on another thread and they are gone. Topic was with lusker. I wish I had drugs or booze to blame it on.:eek: I guess work is wearing me down.

There was a thread the other night, that the quote option was all screwd up. I think the site has some glitches in it. Every now and then, somebody will post pics, and only some folks can see them. Perhaps you should pop a coupla Valiums, and wash them down with a nice CC& 7. :D

[21degrees]

There was a thread the other night, that the quote option was all screwd up. I think the site has some glitches in it. Every now and then, somebody will post pics, and only some folks can see them. Perhaps you should pop a coupla Valiums, and wash them down with a nice CC& 7. :D

Hows life their, last time I talked to you, my wife was heading your way to do some training,but storm hit, she ended up going to sanfransico.

[the dangling wrangler]

Hows life their, last time I talked to you, my wife was heading your way to do some training,but storm hit, she ended up going to sanfransico.

Yea, that storm messed a lot of things up. Me personally, didn't get any more than a bunch of limbs down, and the power was out for three or four days. No biggie though, I picked up a generator last year. Didn't even loose the refrigerator, had a window shaker for the bed room, and coffee for the block. It was amazing, how something that insignificant, meant so much to everyone.

[sysint]

Why are you making all of these assumptions (wrong, by the way) about me instead of answering my question? Are you saying that you don't believe that the New Testament teaches us Good News of Salvation? Not wrong. Entirely Biblical. I quoted the scripture. Can't get any more plain than that.

You simply refuse to accept that you are wrong with your "good news of Salvation". Rather than admit your mistake and investigate you become obstinate.

It's the "good news of the kingdom". That's actually what is written. You could look up the words in the scriptures and compare this with your Strong's Concordance. What will happen is that you will find out your concepts you are espousing are not well founded.

Luke 4:43 But he said, "I must preach the good news of the kingdom of God to the other towns also, because that is why I was sent." --- NIV (New International Version)

....good news of the kingdom is found all over the new testament. Good news of Salvation seems to be found nowhere.

Jesus stated it was for the good news of the kingdom he was sent. That IS the reason he was sent according to Jesus himself. Maybe you should concern yourself with that than demonstrate your obstinate position. The argument you are trying to make is with the words of Jesus in the Bible, not with me.

[RoBoTeq]

There was a thread the other night, that the quote option was all screwd up. I think the site has some glitches in it. Every now and then, somebody will post pics, and only some folks can see them. Perhaps you should pop a coupla Valiums, and wash them down with a nice CC& 7. :D
I've been having problems with the "search" function over the past couple of weeks. I use that "search" function extensively when checking out pro member applications and it had been doing all sorts of goofy things.

[RoBoTeq]

Not wrong. Entirely Biblical. I quoted the scripture. Can't get any more plain than that.

You simply refuse to accept that you are wrong with your "good news of Salvation". Rather than admit your mistake and investigate you become obstinate.

It's the "good news of the kingdom". That's actually what is written. You could look up the words in the scriptures and compare this with your Strong's Concordance. What will happen is that you will find out your concepts you are espousing are not well founded.

Luke 4:43 But he said, "I must preach the good news of the kingdom of God to the other towns also, because that is why I was sent." --- NIV (New International Version)

....good news of the kingdom is found all over the new testament. Good news of Salvation seems to be found nowhere.

Jesus stated it was for the good news of the kingdom he was sent. That IS the reason he was sent according to Jesus himself. Maybe you should concern yourself with that than demonstrate your obstinate position. The argument you are trying to make is with the words of Jesus in the Bible, not with me.
Whatever. Not only did you still not answer my question, you claimed that the Bible supports your personal accusations against my character. I had no idea I was that important.

Since you refuse to answer specific questions and just keep repeating your Bible quotes while refusing to acknowledge that what you think they mean is not what the Bibilical and entomological experts agree on, I see no reason to continue this conversation. Beleive what you want to believe. I will continue to study with an open mind and open heart rather then getting hung up bumper sticker sized Bible quotes that are being misrepresented.

[RoBoTeq]

Not wrong. Entirely Biblical. I quoted the scripture. Can't get any more plain than that.

You simply refuse to accept that you are wrong with your "good news of Salvation". Rather than admit your mistake and investigate you become obstinate.

It's the "good news of the kingdom". That's actually what is written. You could look up the words in the scriptures and compare this with your Strong's Concordance. What will happen is that you will find out your concepts you are espousing are not well founded.

Luke 4:43 But he said, "I must preach the good news of the kingdom of God to the other towns also, because that is why I was sent." --- NIV (New International Version)

....good news of the kingdom is found all over the new testament. Good news of Salvation seems to be found nowhere.

Jesus stated it was for the good news of the kingdom he was sent. That IS the reason he was sent according to Jesus himself. Maybe you should concern yourself with that than demonstrate your obstinate position. The argument you are trying to make is with the words of Jesus in the Bible, not with me.
I gotta ask one more time (the third time to be precise); do you not beilieve that the New Testament teaches us to spread the Good News of Salvation?

[Mr Bill]

do you not beilieve that the New Testament teaches us to spread the Good News of Salvation?


Mr Bill believes the New Testament teaches us that we are to gather together for prayer,
worship, teaching and other elements of the communal aspect of a Christian life. :D

[RoBoTeq]

Mr Bill believes the New Testament teaches us that we are to gather together for prayer,
worship, teaching and other elements of the communal aspect of a Christian life. :D
I can't argue against those sentiments, but it doesn't answer the question.

What is the most important thing about Christianity? What is the biggest benefit of accepting Jesus as our Lord and Saviour?

[Mr Bill]

What is the most important thing about Christianity? What is the biggest benefit of accepting Jesus as our Lord and Saviour?


My personal answer to that would be my salvation, as it assures me I will be headed up
and not down. "well spiritually" :D

[sysint]

Whatever. Not only did you still not answer my question, you claimed that the Bible supports your personal accusations against my character. I had no idea I was that important.

Since you refuse to answer specific questions and just keep repeating your Bible quotes while refusing to acknowledge that what you think they mean is not what the Bibilical and entomological experts agree on, I see no reason to continue this conversation. Beleive what you want to believe. I will continue to study with an open mind and open heart rather then getting hung up bumper sticker sized Bible quotes that are being misrepresented..........I gotta ask one more time (the third time to be precise); do you not beilieve that the New Testament teaches us to spread the Good News of Salvation?Listen. You can't accept the scriptures for what they say.

They say "good news of the kingdom". I kindly asked you to produce a scripture saying "good news of Salvation". You have not and refuse to answer and simply admit it doesn't exist. So, your whole premise is seriously flawed based on a phrase that doesn't exist. You are obstinate because you cannot admit the facts because you have this developed ideology and personal doctrine you wish to espouse. The problem is the scriptures throw a wrench into your personal doctrine.

The New Testament is all about spreading the "good news of the kingdom", not spreading your made up phrase "good news of Salvation". The good news of the kingdom is mentioned over and over again. Hardly a bumper sticker quote. What is a bumper sticker quote is "good news of Salvation". It has to be a bumper sticker because the phrase isn't in the Bible.

What you need to do is figure out what the kingdom actually is and what your role is in relation to it.

Does your existence depend on it? I think so by the scriptures. However, you seem to be attempting to make your salvation the paramount issue. This is hardly the case. I think Jesus' prayer gives us the two most important issues right in the beginning where it says 1. Let God's name be sanctified, and 2. his kingdom come. No mention of personal salvation in the prayer. You see, it's not about you and me. It's about God. That's the part you absolutely don't get and why you struggle. You want to put your personal salvation above God in importance. Personal Salvation is miniscule by comparison to God's name being sanctified and his rulership over creation according to the Bible.

Again, Luke 4:43.

[RoBoTeq]

My personal answer to that would be my salvation, as it assures me I will be headed up
and not down. "well spiritually" :D
Exactly. And is the major theme of the New Testament to tell others the Good News about Salvation or to tell others that Jesus was all about building up real estate?

Once again for those who ignore facts by insisting on changing the intent of Bible passages; the word "kingdom", as used throughout the New Testament, refers to a realm of influence. The kingdom of God refers to any and all areas of existance where God has influence over. I can only assume that there will be a place where God will not have influence over and that place is what we refer to as Hell.

Salvation, and Salvation alone can get our spiritual being to dwell in the realm of God forever rather then be condemned to the place where God does not have influence over.

[RoBoTeq]

Listen. You can't accept the scriptures for what they say.

They say "good news of the kingdom". I kindly asked you to produce a scripture saying "good news of Salvation". You have not and refuse to answer and simply admit it doesn't exist. So, your whole premise is seriously flawed based on a phrase that doesn't exist. You are obstinate because you cannot admit the facts because you have this developed ideology and personal doctrine you wish to espouse. The problem is the scriptures throw a wrench into your personal doctrine.

The New Testament is all about spreading the "good news of the kingdom", not spreading your made up phrase "good news of Salvation". The good news of the kingdom is mentioned over and over again. Hardly a bumper sticker quote. What is a bumper sticker quote is "good news of Salvation". It has to be a bumper sticker because the phrase isn't in the Bible.

What you need to do is figure out what the kingdom actually is and what your role is in relation to it.

Does your existence depend on it? I think so by the scriptures. However, you seem to be attempting to make your salvation the paramount issue. This is hardly the case. I think Jesus' prayer gives us the two most important issues right in the beginning where it says 1. Let God's name be sanctified, and 2. his kingdom come. No mention of personal salvation in the prayer. You see, it's not about you and me. It's about God. That's the part you absolutely don't get and why you struggle. You want to put your personal salvation above God in importance. Personal Salvation is miniscule by comparison to God's name being sanctified and his rulership over creation according to the Bible.

Again, Luke 4:43.
OK, so you believe that God is building an army that will be housed in some kingdom like real estate....I got it. I just don't think that is anywhere near what the Bible is telling us. What you are promoting is what every conquerer wannabee using Christian soldiers to obtain power over others promoted. It has not worked out for one of those Christian armies.

The Crusades were all a disaster, so, did God's army lose? Not only were hundreds of thousands of men, women and children of Christian, Muslim, Jewish and other faiths killed in the name of "the kingdom of God", thousands of children later perished when they attempted to emulate what their fathers had done a few years prior; http://www.historyguide.org/ancient/children.html

I will stick to believing that the main theme, stated in these exact words or not (it is not), is for Christian's to spread the Good News of Salvation.

Just as there is nothing Biblical about celebrating the birth of Jesus of Nazareth, we do it because it is Biblical. Just as there is no reference to celebrating the Ressurection of Jesus Christ in the Bible, we do it because that is where the Bible leads us in our faith.

So, you keep on your crusade for kingdomry, maybe cut off an ear or two along the way (that too is "written" in the Bible, so I suppose we should be doing it), and I'll keep on telling others the Good News of Salvation that is ours for free if we just accept that God sacrificed His own Earthly being for the sake of washing away the sins of the rest of humanity.

I just hope I don't meet you on a battle field becuase you will be taking my life as I try to give you Good News.

[bootlen]

Just as there is nothing Biblical about celebrating the birth of Jesus of Nazareth, we do it because it is Biblical.

I don't know that celebrating Jesus' birth is "Biblical". I'll plead the Clinton Amendment and ask how you define "Biblical".:o

BTW, I have no problem celebrating or not celebrating His birth...as long as it is not mandated either way by man's laws.:cool:

Best I can tell, Christmas was instituted by man just so he could eventually remove God from the celebration.

The celebration of Christ's D, B, & R was once the biggest holiday of the year. Thanks to Macy's , that is no longer true. How sad.

Just as there is no reference to celebrating the Ressurection of Jesus Christ in the Bible, we do it because that is where the Bible leads us in our faith.

Not sure about this. Christ said of Communion, "For as often as you do this, do it in remembrance of Me." I cannot imagine celebrating His death and burial without in the next breath celebrating His resurrection. And this because of the fact that the second part of of your quote...our faith leads us to it. Indeed, it does just that.

[RoBoTeq]

Just as there is nothing Biblical about celebrating the birth of Jesus of Nazareth, we do it because it is Biblical.

I don't know that celebrating Jesus' birth is "Biblical". I'll plead the Clinton Amendment and ask how you define "Biblical".:o

BTW, I have no problem celebrating or not celebrating His birth...as long as it is not mandated either way by man's laws.:cool:

Best I can tell, Christmas was instituted by man just so he could eventually remove God from the celebration.

The celebration of Christ's D, B, & R was once the biggest holiday of the year. Thanks to Macy's , that is no longer true. How sad.

Just as there is no reference to celebrating the Ressurection of Jesus Christ in the Bible, we do it because that is where the Bible leads us in our faith.

Not sure about this. Christ said of Communion, "For as often as you do this, do it in remembrance of Me." I cannot imagine celebrating His death and burial without in the next breath celebrating His resurrection. And this because of the fact that the second part of of your quote...our faith leads us to it. Indeed, it does just that.
We are in the same church and even in the same pew on these things boots. We are just reading from different versions of the Bible and don't yet realize we are still reading the same things;)

In other words, there is no argument here.

[Richard Kletty]

I'm paying attention to what others believe because we are dealing with a faith based subject here. I am just not understanding how we as Christians are not expected to make telling others the Good News of Salvation a priority one evangelism in our lives.

I'm not an "onward Christian soldiers" kind of a Christian. I believe that seeking a physical kingdom, which the New Testament clearly does not refer to, is falling into Satan's trappings of getting us to do evil in the alleged name of our Lord and Saviour.

If Im not mistaken the "physical" kingdom will be here on earth. Its in Revelation and The Lords Prayer.

The good new is the news of the coming Kingdom of which Salvation allows us to be a part of.

So, Salvation is not the good news . The Kingdom which is coming is the good news.

Im not going to argue that Salvation isnt good news because it most certainly is. It is good news to those who accept it.

Im guessing were talking semantics here. I do not think whether one thinks Salvation or the Kindom is the good news precludes one from either.

Salvation certainly is good news. The Kindom coming is better news. How bout that? LOL

[RoBoTeq]

If Im not mistaken the "physical" kingdom will be here on earth. Its in Revelation and The Lords Prayer.

The good new is the news of the coming Kingdom of which Salvation allows us to be a part of.

So, Salvation is not the good news . The Kingdom which is coming is the good news.

Im not going to argue that Salvation isnt good news because it most certainly is. It is good news to those who accept it.

Im guessing were talking semantics here. I do not think whether one thinks Salvation or the Kindom is the good news precludes one from either.

Salvation certainly is good news. The Kindom coming is better news. How bout that? LOL
I agree that much of what appears to be conflicts in our ways of thinking is symantecs.

I disagree that the kingdom of God is real estate or even a physical domain. This belief comes from factual translations of the Greek words the New Testament were originally written in being used to mean "realm of" or "domain" and have no connection with the term "kingdom" that is used today to refer to a physical place. The Hebrew words used to write the Hebrew (Old) Testament are mostly translated into the English word "kingdom" and do refer to real estate. To put it bluntly; the translated term "kingdom" in the Old (Hebrew) Testament writings have an entirely different meaning then the words that are translated into the English word "kingdom" of the New Testament.

As far as the references to Earth being God's physical kingdom, it is quite clear throughout the Bible(s) that the Earth is ruled by Satan. Since Earth, as well as all of physical existance, is still God's domain (kingdom), it stands to reason that from the Lord's prayer we would pray that God's will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. The reason to pray for God's will to be done on Earth is because we need to choose and ask for God's will to be done where Satan rules.

[Richard Kletty]

I agree that much of what appears to be conflicts in our ways of thinking is symantecs.

I disagree that the kingdom of God is real estate or even a physical domain. This belief comes from factual translations of the Greek words the New Testament were originally written in being used to mean "realm of" or "domain" and have no connection with the term "kingdom" that is used today to refer to a physical place. The Hebrew words used to write the Hebrew (Old) Testament are mostly translated into the English word "kingdom" and do refer to real estate. To put it bluntly; the translated term "kingdom" in the Old (Hebrew) Testament writings have an entirely different meaning then the words that are translated into the English word "kingdom" of the New Testament.

As far as the references to Earth being God's physical kingdom, it is quite clear throughout the Bible(s) that the Earth is ruled by Satan. Since Earth, as well as all of physical existance, is still God's domain (kingdom), it stands to reason that from the Lord's prayer we would pray that God's will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. The reason to pray for God's will to be done on Earth is because we need to choose and ask for God's will to be done where Satan rules.

Ahh but you are neglecting the "thy Kingdom come" part which along with "thy will be done" belongs with the "on earth as it is in Heaven".

Indeed Revelation makes it clear that the New Jerusalem will be on earth.

Its all good. You and I will find out together along with our other brothers and sisters all the details when He returns.

[BigJon3475]

Can anybody confirm this?

The congress has passed a bill That will be ratified upon the election of Obama to presidency!!!
ALL Non-profit entities will be required to turn over thier accounting and bookkeeping files to the Internal Revenue Service as soon as January 1, 2009
The Obama council has stated that this is the only way to balance the budget in the first 100 days of office, And congress has agreed!

They can't unless they are allowed representation in the state. No taxation without representation....and separation of church and state are conflicting interest with this agenda.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_taxation_without_representation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state

The only way they can do this is to ban religions or the separation of church and state. Either way they will be in for a big surprise. Either it will be the 2nd revolution with the religious in a heated all out war against oppression or we can start teaching kids in school about christian and other religious values. Of course we are in socialism transition right now so anything can happen....

[BigJon3475]

One thing we can rest assured on is this is all gods will and who are we to really question it.

[sysint]

..I disagree that the kingdom of God is real estate or even a physical domain. This belief comes from factual translations of the Greek words the New Testament were originally written in being used to mean "realm of" or "domain" and have no connection with the term "kingdom" that is used today to refer to a physical place.....Please put it bluntly with your Strong's concordance on Matt 24:14 and let me know what you get. We wouldn't want your Strong's to disappear on this one.

[sysint]

...I will stick to believing that the main theme, stated in these exact words or not (it is not), is for Christian's to spread the Good News of Salvation...This certainly is not the theme of the Bible. It's not even a command to spread some "good news of Salvation" (the invented phrase by you).

So, why is Jesus called a king and why are his followers called rulers and priests if there isn't a kingdom? Probably you have some explanation for Revelation 5: 10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth." --- NIV

[RoBoTeq]

Ahh but you are neglecting the "thy Kingdom come" part which along with "thy will be done" belongs with the "on earth as it is in Heaven".

Indeed Revelation makes it clear that the New Jerusalem will be on earth.

Its all good. You and I will find out together along with our other brothers and sisters all the details when He returns.
"thy kingdom come" is a request for God to govern over the realm of the Earth. "kingdom" in this passage refers to an area or realm of power and "come" refers to a request for something to occur.

"thy will be done" Is pretty straigt forward to relating to today's meaning. So far we are praying for God to govern over us where we currently dwell.

"on Earth as it is in Heaven" again is straight forward. So, the entire passage is a prayer requesting God to extend His will to the realm of Earth as His will is in Heaven.

Revelations makes nothing clear. Revelations is the most abstract of all Biblical books and has been the catalyst of most religious cults as well as much of Hollywood's mythical creatures that come from the ancient Eqyptian or Greek cultures.

It is Revelations that gave us the one liner about the number 666 that has become legendary for identifying evil. We now believe that the number was mistranslated from the ancient Greek it was written...Sorry, wrong number:rolleyes:

It is Revelations one liner that gives the Jehova's Witness's the idea that Heaven has a limited capacity....first come, first serve? Maybe we take a test. Could be if we slip St. Peter a coin or two we will be given special consideration, eh?

Not to mention that the prophecies of the Book of Revelation can actually have already occured. Many Bible scholars feel that Revelation was addressing the conditions of the current Roman Empire and it's imminent demise.

You do understand that Jesus's returning is the sign that the end of mankind has come....don't you? I'm kinda hoping not to be around. Indications that the end of times is a loooooong time off are fairly numerous.

[sysint]

All right, I see you don't want to use your Strong's on Matthew 24:14.

From WIKI- The Kingdom of God or Reign of God (Greek: Βασιλεία τοῦ Θεοῦ - Basileia tou Theou,[1]) translates to the "reign of God" [2] is a foundational concept in the three Abrahamic faiths, and most notably within Christianity, where it constitutes the central theme of Jesus of Nazareth's message in the synoptic Gospels. The phrase occurs in the New Testament more than 100 times...

The Kingdom of God is a government. You yourself said the world is currently Satan's which is Biblical. Essentially the Kingdom overthrows Satan (also in scripture). So, The Lord's prayer asks for that kingdom on earth as in heaven. Satan has no dominion in heaven, so Jesus was praying that the kingdom take over on earth as in heaven.

Very simple and logical. Anything else becomes "fluff". And of course there are many faiths that like the fluff because it suits their doctrine. Otherwise they would have to figure out how to be subject to that Kingdom and some people are just obstinate and like the thoughts from their own head fill their ears.

[RoBoTeq]

Please put it bluntly with your Strong's concordance on Matt 24:14 and let me know what you get. We wouldn't want your Strong's to disappear on this one.

While I don't appreciate your snide and sarcastic comments on my use of Strong's Concordance, I also don't see you refering to anything but your own contrivances. Should I consider your viewpoints to be more definitive then what has been studied thoroughly by entimological scholars? If you are not going to accept the definitions of Strong's then there is no point in continuing to arue with my arguing from a learned point of view and you arguing from an ignorant one.

Here is the verse in NIV version "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

Broken down we have;
"And this gospel" (And this good message)
"of the kingdom" (of the realm, ie; where the author dwells)
"will be preached" (will be heralded, proclaimed, taught)
"in the whole world" (exactly what it says, as is)
"as a testimony" (as to be witnessed, seen and described)
"to all nations" (to the multitudes, all types of peoples),
"and then the end will come." (and then the termination of man's rule will be sought after.)

In one interpretation the passage could read; "And the good message of the realm of where I dwell will be told in the the whole world as to be witnessed to the multitudes of every types of peoples, and then the last of man's rule will be sought after."

We of course must be careful with interpretations. Since entomology is a moving target depending on the most current knowledge of ancient languages and cultures at the moment, the actual intent of a word or even verse can change with the discovery of the next Rosetta Stone.

[RoBoTeq]

This certainly is not the theme of the Bible. It's not even a command to spread some "good news of Salvation" (the invented phrase by you).

So, why is Jesus called a king and why are his followers called rulers and priests if there isn't a kingdom? Probably you have some explanation for Revelation 5: 10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth." --- NIV
The people of the times of the Biblical verses related to terms such as king and kingdom. Even so, the ancient Greek words that have been translated to kingdom in the New Testament have different usages then the Hebrew words translated to kingdom from the Old Testament.

Your point of view of arguing is exactly the same as the ancient Hebrews points of view when they argued against Jesus. You and Simon Zeolot would have gotten along just fine:rolleyes:

[5 star]

Playing God on Earth and denying his work to be done byway of promoting the taxation of the Lord’s house and limiting his ability to bring salvation to people is a sin in itself.

God is the creator of everything on earth. We have NO ownership, NO right or NO power to limit his work in anyway.

Is anyone really willing to doubt the work and power of God and stand before him and deny him?

[BigJon3475]

Yeah many many people unfortunately are.

[RoBoTeq]

Playing God on Earth and denying his work to be done byway of promoting the taxation of the Lord’s house and limiting his ability to bring salvation to people is a sin in itself.

God is the creator of everything on earth. We have NO ownership, NO right or NO power to limit his work in anyway.

Is anyone really willing to doubt the work and power of God and stand before him and deny him?
Jesus disagrees with you in Matthew 22;
17Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not?"

18But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, "You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? 19Show me the coin used for paying the tax." They brought him a denarius, 20and he asked them, "Whose portrait is this? And whose inscription?" 21"Caesar's," they replied.
Then he said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."

[5 star]

Jesus disagrees with you in Matthew 22; "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."Give to Caesar means for businesses to pay their share to townships etc., and give to God what is God's is referring to personal tithe.

It does not say restrict God's work which taxing the church would do.

God controls every movement, not man. If God had wanted church's taxed from the beginning, he would have had our founders tax the churches for it was God's hand and spirit that guided our founders to write our Constitution, not the founders themselves.

[RoBoTeq]

Give to Caesar means for businesses to pay their share to townships etc., and give to God what is God's is referring to personal tithe.

It does not say restrict God's work which taxing the church would do.

God controls every movement, not man. If God had wanted church's taxed from the beginning, he would have had our founders tax the churches for it was God's hand and spirit that guided our founders to write our Constitution, not the founders themselves.
Really? And where in the Bible can we find these gems of knowledge? Since the "church" had nothing to do with an organization or buildings in the Biblical sense, I find it interesting that you have decided what Jesus "really" meant when he told the Pharissees that tax money was not Caesar's (government) and not God's.

Just a little time line for ya; the "beginning" is not when the Constitution of the U.S. was formed. There were several thousand years between "the beginning" and the formation of the United States government.

There is nothing Biblical to indicate that any organization should be exempt from taxation. The Pagan Temples were not exempt and neither were the Synogagues. Not until the U.S Constitution were religous organizations exempt from supporting the tax burden of the country they exist in.

[deq1269]

Can anybody confirm this?

The congress has passed a bill That will be ratified upon the election of Obama to presidency!!!
ALL Non-profit entities will be required to turn over thier accounting and bookkeeping files to the Internal Revenue Service as soon as January 1, 2009
The Obama council has stated that this is the only way to balance the budget in the first 100 days of office, And congress has agreed!

Has anybody confirmed this? So far it seems this discussion is based on supposition. People are getting riled up and don't even know if its true. Gotta love the internet. 90% rumor 10% truth.

[BigJon3475]

The far left have been pushing for this for a while since religion opposes their wants to control the "masses"

[The Doctor]

Give to Caesar means for businesses to pay their share to townships etc., and give to God what is God's is referring to personal tithe.
What then was the reason for the colonists to rebel against the excessive taxation?

It does not say restrict God's work which taxing the church would do.

God controls every movement, not man. If God had wanted church's taxed from the beginning, he would have had our founders tax the churches for it was God's hand and spirit that guided our founders to write our Constitution, not the founders themselves.You need help. You need professional help. You need a team of doctors in Vienna, thinking about you 24 hours a day.

[Richard Kletty]

"thy kingdom come" is a request for God to govern over the realm of the Earth. "kingdom" in this passage refers to an area or realm of power and "come" refers to a request for something to occur.


We'll just disagree here. Kingdom means Kingdom. On earth means on earth. Im not gonna beat a dead horse with you.



"thy will be done" Is pretty straigt forward to relating to today's meaning. So far we are praying for God to govern over us where we currently dwell.


Actually, were praying for much more than that. But hey, I agree with what you've typed


"on Earth as it is in Heaven" again is straight forward. So, the entire passage is a prayer requesting God to extend His will to the realm of Earth as His will is in Heaven.


I agree in part.


Revelations makes nothing clear. Revelations is the most abstract of all Biblical books and has been the catalyst of most religious cults as well as much of Hollywood's mythical creatures that come from the ancient Eqyptian or Greek cultures.


So you're gonna discount what it says?



It is Revelations that gave us the one liner about the number 666 that has become legendary for identifying evil. We now believe that the number was mistranslated from the ancient Greek it was written...Sorry, wrong number:rolleyes:


But all the other numbers are correct? Man, whatever.


It is Revelations one liner that gives the Jehova's Witness's the idea that Heaven has a limited capacity....first come, first serve? Maybe we take a test. Could be if we slip St. Peter a coin or two we will be given special consideration, eh?


While I do not subscribe to the JW way I do appreciate their stance and continue to pray for them just as I do Jews, Muslims, Mormons and Christians.



Not to mention that the prophecies of the Book of Revelation can actually have already occured. Many Bible scholars feel that Revelation was addressing the conditions of the current Roman Empire and it's imminent demise.


Yeah, I think not. Again, the book is pretty clear and has a basic outline.



You do understand that Jesus's returning is the sign that the end of mankind has come....don't you? I'm kinda hoping not to be around. Indications that the end of times is a loooooong time off are fairly numerous.

Ahhhh but much will happen before he appears. Start sighting the "numerous" indications please. (though Im not saying we are or are not in the end times)

Actually, I dont think Revelation (its not plural as it is the Revelation of Jesus Christ) is hard to understand at all. While much of the speech is figurative, quite a bit is told in plain open language that anyone can understand.

The book follows pretty much the same outline as Daniels end time chapers and also Jesus tells us how much of it is gonna go down in Matthew and follows again, much the same outline.

Now as far as taxing churches? Im not so sure its a good idea due to separation.

[sysint]

...I also don't see you refering to anything but your own contrivances. Should I consider your viewpoints to be more definitive then what has been studied thoroughly by entimological scholars? If you are not going to accept the definitions of Strong's then there is no point in continuing to arue with my arguing from a learned point of view and you arguing from an ignorant one.

Here is the verse in NIV version "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

Broken down we have;
"And this gospel" (And this good message)
"of the kingdom" (of the realm, ie; where the author dwells)
"will be preached" (will be heralded, proclaimed, taught)
"in the whole world" (exactly what it says, as is)
"as a testimony" (as to be witnessed, seen and described)
"to all nations" (to the multitudes, all types of peoples),
"and then the end will come." (and then the termination of man's rule will be sought after.)

In one interpretation the passage could read; "And the good message of the realm of where I dwell will be told in the the whole world as to be witnessed to the multitudes of every types of peoples, and then the last of man's rule will be sought after."

We of course must be careful with interpretations. Since entomology is a moving target depending on the most current knowledge of ancient languages and cultures at the moment, the actual intent of a word or even verse can change with the discovery of the next Rosetta Stone. I would prefer you use the Bible for what is says. Your breakdown is based on what? If your "breakdown" was so accurate then Bible translators would be using it or something similar. However, it is so off track nobody could use it. Maybe look up some Greek.

You aren't using your Strong's here. Again, look it up. BTW, the word kingdom is used as definitive so it is not "realm". Your interpretation is completely not valid. It doesn't even hold up with Matt 6 with the Lord's prayer. The kingdom creates action according to the scriptures (Daniel 2:44). It is a government. You want to create some fluffy response so you don't need any accountability to the kingdom. Further, your interpretation would not be consistent when comparing the other 100+ NT scriptures talking about the kingdom of God. However, to say the Kingdom of God is a government FITS every time.

[5 star]

Really? And where in the Bible can we find these gems of knowledge? Have you ever heard of the word “interpretation”?
Since the "church" had nothing to do with an organization or buildings in the Biblical sense,Church could be anything / place that allows people to gather for fellowship. Where in the Bible is “church” specifically described so I can see this gem of knowledge?
I find it interesting that you have decided what Jesus "really" meant when he told the Pharissees that tax money was not Caesar's (government) and not God's.This is “2008”. How are towns / cities / states / federal government supposed to get their money to support the infrastructure if some is not Caesar’s? Everything is God’s. Why say taxes are not God’s?


Just a little time line for ya; the "beginning" is not when the Constitution of the U.S. was formed. There were several thousand years between "the beginning" and the formation of the United States government.Thank you for the civic lesson. I was unaware of what BC and AD stood for. It was not explained in the Operations Manual for this computer.


There is nothing Biblical to indicate that any organization should be exempt from taxation.Why would you want to limit the work of the almighty?
The Pagan Temples were not exempt and neither were the Synogagues.Things “change”.
Not until the U.S Constitution were religous organizations exempt from supporting the tax burden of the country they exist in.Maybe it was God’s plan being our founders where Christians. Ever think about that?

[5 star]

What then was the reason for the colonists to rebel against the excessive taxation?Hold on, let me make a phone call to our deceased heroes and find out. Ok, I am back. They said they were tired of taxation without representation, not "excessive" taxation.


You need help.Thank you. You must be a generous man to be offering a stranger help.
You need professional help.I can always use professional help on jobs. When would you like to start, that is of course after a background check and you pass testing?
You need a team of doctors in Vienna, thinking about you 24 hours a day.Jesus thinks about me 24/7. I think I will stick with Jesus.

[JRINJAX]

I would just like to share what works best for me. It is a simple "Child Like" faith.

I don't know all of the answers to the deep mysteries of God, but I have found I still can have great joy, even with not knowing them.

I have met many in my 34 years of being a Christian who professed to know all of the deep mysteries. They seemed without exception to have little depth to their faith and soon "withered".

I will stick to being joyful and ignorant.

[RoBoTeq]

The far left have been pushing for this for a while since religion opposes their wants to control the "masses"
I wonder how many liberal lobbyists have used religious organizations such as Reverand Wright's church. In which case, liberals would not be pushing to harm the religious organizations finances.

Ultra liberals are doing too well with infiltrating and using religious organizations to need to fight them.

[RoBoTeq]

We'll just disagree here. Kingdom means Kingdom. On earth means on earth. Im not gonna beat a dead horse with you.



You are simply wrong. Just pick up any Bible concordance and look up the translation of the ancient Greek word that has been translated to the word "kingdom". If you just want to remain ignorant of the facts, there is nothing we can any longer discuss. If you want to learn the truth, it is certainly easy enough to do so. I have already posted quite a bit of resources that support that the translated word "kingdom" in the New Testament has nothing to do with real estate.

What in the world would possess you to not want to understand what is factually determined as the truth?

[RoBoTeq]

Have you ever heard of the word “interpretation”? Church could be anything / place that allows people to gather for fellowship. Where in the Bible is “church” specifically described so I can see this gem of knowledge? This is “2008”. How are towns / cities / states / federal government supposed to get their money to support the infrastructure if some is not Caesar’s? Everything is God’s. Why say taxes are not God’s?

Thank you for the civic lesson. I was unaware of what BC and AD stood for. It was not explained in the Operations Manual for this computer.

Why would you want to limit the work of the almighty?Things “change”.Maybe it was God’s plan being our founders where Christians. Ever think about that?
Wow! Just wow! I have never seen so much out in left field information in one post before.

Yes, I've heard of "interpretation". It means that someone has made up a definition for something they don't understand.

The term "church" in the Bible is strictly referring to the group of people of faith. If you are too lazy to do a little bit of Bible study or just prefer to be ignorant about what the Bible really discusses, far be it for me to attempt to educate you.

[RoBoTeq]

Hold on, let me make a phone call to our deceased heroes and find out. Ok, I am back. They said they were tired of taxation without representation, not "excessive" taxation.

Thank you. You must be a generous man to be offering a stranger help. I can always use professional help on jobs. When would you like to start, that is of course after a background check and you pass testing? Jesus thinks about me 24/7. I think I will stick with Jesus.
I see you are from Texas. Are you one of the escaped Davidians?

[RoBoTeq]

I would just like to share what works best for me. It is a simple "Child Like" faith.

I don't know all of the answers to the deep mysteries of God, but I have found I still can have great joy, even with not knowing them.

I have met many in my 34 years of being a Christian who professed to know all of the deep mysteries. They seemed without exception to have little depth to their faith and soon "withered".

I will stick to being joyful and ignorant.
Relying on faith alone is certainly not being ignorant, it is accepting truth through faith alone. I envy you for this.

[5 star]

Wow! Just wow! I have never seen so much out in left field information in one post before.Maybe you "interpreted" the post wrong, or maybe you need to further educate yourself.


Yes, I've heard of "interpretation". It means that someone has made up a definition for something they don't understand.I believe you are incorrect. Interpretation is just that, in-ter-pre-ta-tion, how someone perceives the meaning of something. It has nothnig to do with "making up" as you say. Maybe go look it up on webster.com


The term "church" in the Bible is strictly referring to the group of people of faith. If you are too lazy to do a little bit of Bible study or just prefer to be ignorant about what the Bible really discusses, far be it for me to attempt to educate you.And you call yourself a registered minister as I have read you post on here before. Gees. Do you always attack people when discussing religion?

Church refers to a place to have fellowship and study the word of God.

[5 star]

I see you are from Texas. Are you one of the escaped Davidians?I am the next POTUS, number 45. ;)

[Mr Bill]

I am the next POTUS, number 45. ;)


Well then, I am from Texas also so can we Forget the change I want improvement! :D

[RoBoTeq]

Maybe you "interpreted" the post wrong, or maybe you need to further educate yourself.

I believe you are incorrect. Interpretation is just that, in-ter-pre-ta-tion, how someone perceives the meaning of something. It has nothnig to do with "making up" as you say. Maybe go look it up on webster.com

And you call yourself a registered minister as I have read you post on here before. Gees. Do you always attack people when discussing religion?

Church refers to a place to have fellowship and study the word of God.
I'm sorry you feel that my attempts to keep you from sounding ridiculous are attacks. That is not my intent. My intent is to have a reasonable discussion based on facts and not mere random thoughts.

Oh, I am quite against organized religions because they are more of a business then organizations of faith. My reason for having myself regestered as a reverend was mostly to show how silly such a title is. I do however think of myself as an evangelist. I just don't suffer fools gladly is all;)

As long as you are one with God, it's all good:cool:

[RoBoTeq]

I am the next POTUS, number 45. ;)
OK, that explains a lot:D

[5 star]

I'm sorry you feel that my attempts to keep you from sounding ridiculous are attacks. That is not my intent. My intent is to have a reasonable discussion based on facts and not mere random thoughts.Aren't thoughts interpretations in the end, of the scripture. No two people see things alike sometimes, hence the reason for each of us having a different DNA.


Oh, I am quite against organized religions because they are more of a business then organizations of faith. Not all, but mega-churches are getting away from what Jesus really wanted us to be doing, spreading the word through "actions" so others could learn from example.
My reason for having myself regestered as a reverend was mostly to show how silly such a title is.Reverend is not a silly title when the person wearing the title is performing to what the meaning of the title is.
I do however think of myself as an evangelist. I just don't suffer fools gladly is all;)Evangelist is good. One must watch how they walk when they call themselves an Evangelist, for they must walk near a perfect walk in order to not sway people away from God. It is a heavy responsibility.


As long as you are one with God, it's all good:cool:I am.

[5 star]

OK, that explains a lot:DJesus Christ was a carpenter and lead many, so isn't it about time another working class person lead this country out of hell?

[the dangling wrangler]

Colchester, Conn. — The Rev. Susan Nikirk of Nikirk Ministries is threatening to sue the town of Colchester, claiming the tax assessor is “playing God” by questioning her church’s tax-exempt status.

At Thursday’s Board of Selectmen meeting, Nikirk demanded answers from Tax Assessor John Chaponis about why he sent the church a $6,500 property tax bill for 2007.

“I want a meeting with this man right now,” Nikirk said, following Chaponis to the door as he tried to make his escape from the meeting room.

Several town police officers arrived shortly afterward to ensure everyone remained orderly, but they did not interfere with the meeting.

The dispute began earlier this year after Chaponis removed the church from the town’s tax-exempt list and sent them a property tax bill.

Chaponis said the issue is cut and dried.

He said the church no longer holds services on the property, so it does not fit the definition of a tax-exempt organization.

“They were granted exempt status for several years and then it was removed from the 2007 Grand List because it was no longer an exempt use,” he said.

The church at 52 Mill St., around the corner from Town Hall, is obviously vacant, Chaponis said. Unshoveled snow, a prominent “for sale” sign out front and no sign of people going in or out were the giveaways, he said.

Nikirk, who operates a national television ministry with her husband, Gerald, denies the church ever closed. She admits the size of the congregation has dwindled to a handful since she started in Colchester in 2000. The building has since been sold and is expected to be the new home of a day care center, she said.

The issue is likely to play out in Superior Court. Under advice of the town attorney, First Selectman Linda Hodge said the Board of Selectmen is not allowed under state statute to intervene.

Nikirk said the assessor overstepped his bounds by requesting such information as records of church services and credentials of clergy.

“He has no right to ask for these things. What does any of this have to do with property tax?” Nikirk said. “How do you tax a church you never taxed in eight years, out of the blue? Has he given all these demands to all the other churches? I believe we are being singled out.”

Selectman John Malsbenden asked Chaponis about the relevance of some of the questions. Chaponis said they are factors he uses to determine whether something is tax-exempt.

Nikirk, a former Broadway dancer who toured with the Beatles in a dance act, describes the church as unconventional and nondenominational, with a focus on the Jewish roots of the Christian faith.

[JRINJAX]

Colchester, Conn. — Nikirk, a former Broadway dancer who toured with the Beatles in a dance act, describes the church as unconventional and nondenominational, with a focus on the Jewish roots of the Christian faith.
I wonder if she is going to get Madonna to come help her out.

[the dangling wrangler]

I wonder if she is going to get Madonna to come help her out.

I wonder what touring with the Beatles has to do with this subject? :confused:

[JRINJAX]

I wonder what touring with the Beatles has to do with this subject? :confused:
From what I understand, Madonna is into some hokus-pocus Jewish mystic religion that has very fuzzy definitions.
It certainly allows her the freedom to hate Christians and make fun of their heritage.
I thought it might be the same thing this Lady espouses.

[the dangling wrangler]

From what I understand, Madonna is into some hokus-pocus Jewish mystic religion that has very fuzzy definitions.
It certainly allows her the freedom to hate Christians and make fun of their heritage.
I thought it might be the same thing this Lady espouses.

Anythings possible.

[RoBoTeq]

Jesus Christ was a carpenter and lead many, so isn't it about time another working class person lead this country out of hell?
I hope it doesn't hurt your feelings that I won't be voting for you:rolleyes:

[Richard Kletty]

You are simply wrong. Just pick up any Bible concordance and look up the translation of the ancient Greek word that has been translated to the word "kingdom". If you just want to remain ignorant of the facts, there is nothing we can any longer discuss. If you want to learn the truth, it is certainly easy enough to do so. I have already posted quite a bit of resources that support that the translated word "kingdom" in the New Testament has nothing to do with real estate.

What in the world would possess you to not want to understand what is factually determined as the truth?

I said we'll just disagree. Isnt that enough for you?

FWIW, I think I have a pretty good relationship with the Truth.

You wanna start judging me now?

[Mr Bill]

I said we'll just disagree. Isnt that enough for you?

FWIW, I think I have a pretty good relationship with the Truth.

You wanna start judging me now?


This is the exact reason I have dropped out of two Bible Study groups in the past year. I have no problem with others views, but then you have these hard core folks at the study that it cannot possibly mean anything else and get all freaked out if you don't go with what they say it means. At first, I used to just kick back and let them hash it out, I enjoyed the debates until the debates got heated and killed the spirit of the groups fellowship, and I got up from my chair one evening and said see ya!
I said this on another post or maybe this one and I truly believe this, regardless of how brilliant or how great one's intellect may be, God's Word is not understood by human wisdom or reasoning. It is only through the Spirit of God that the Word of God is understood, Jesus said it is the Spirit of truth that teaches us all things.

[Pneuma]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvWNkMWWjs0 Here is a great Nooma about praying. Hope you all enjoy it.

[smokin68]

Go ahead. Tax 'em. THEN you WILL hear politics from the pulpit.

THAT should shut up a lot of libs.


Like they don't preach politics now...:rolleyes:

[5 star]

I hope it doesn't hurt your feelings that I won't be voting for you:rolleyes:You have not even heard my platform / plan, and yet you make a decision. Well, you sir, are just as clueless as all the other liberal voters then who get picked up by bus to go vote who have not educated themselves.

Let’s see, you want to tax the churches to death so it limits their ability to spread his word, and you make voting decisions without hearing the facts. Yep, another CINO true and “blue”.

[21degrees]

Let’s see, you want to tax the churches to death so it limits their ability to spread his word, and you make voting decisions without hearing the facts. Yep, another CINO true and “blue”.



I would be happy if some of them churches would just pay some Tax. I pay taxes my business pays taxes so why should the church not pay taxes, because they are essentially a business. I just hate when people are so blinded and feel they deserve a free ride. :mad:

[RoBoTeq]

I said we'll just disagree. Isnt that enough for you?

FWIW, I think I have a pretty good relationship with the Truth.

You wanna start judging me now?
I don't judge others. I also have no desire to correspond with someone who already knows it all and doesn't want to be confused by facts. Sorry I bothered you.

[RoBoTeq]

This is the exact reason I have dropped out of two Bible Study groups in the past year. I have no problem with others views, but then you have these hard core folks at the study that it cannot possibly mean anything else and get all freaked out if you don't go with what they say it means. At first, I used to just kick back and let them hash it out, I enjoyed the debates until the debates got heated and killed the spirit of the groups fellowship, and I got up from my chair one evening and said see ya!
I said this on another post or maybe this one and I truly believe this, regardless of how brilliant or how great one's intellect may be, God's Word is not understood by human wisdom or reasoning. It is only through the Spirit of God that the Word of God is understood, Jesus said it is the Spirit of truth that teaches us all things.
I agree. It still does not change the fact that the word "kingdom" in the New Testament refers to a realm in which God has control of and not a specific parcel of land. I didn't make this up. It is very well documented for all to see.

The KJV Bible has so many entomological mistakes in it, yet those who have been taught wrongly for so many years refuse to accept the truth now that it is known. This has been going on since the 1950s when the Rosetta Stone was discovered and taught us much better how to translate from ancient Greek to English.

There are five variations of ancient Hebrew words in the Old (Hebrew) Testament that have been translated to the word "kingdom". Most of these Hebrew words refer to a parcel of land or physical place. There is one ancient Greek word that translates to the word "kingdom" in the New Testament, and nowhere does it refer to a physical place. It is simply a different word.

[RoBoTeq]

You have not even heard my platform / plan, and yet you make a decision. Well, you sir, are just as clueless as all the other liberal voters then who get picked up by bus to go vote who have not educated themselves.

Let’s see, you want to tax the churches to death so it limits their ability to spread his word, and you make voting decisions without hearing the facts. Yep, another CINO true and “blue”.
Actually, my decision to not vote for you is based on my knowledge of you based on your posts here. On that basis, I would not vote for you for dog catcher and would lobby against your being able to even drive the dog pound truck:p

I see I'm now a liberal again....don't let the real liberals on the site know;)

[5 star]

Who said anything about tax to deathWhen did a government entity ever become lax on taxing something when they got their teeth into it?



I would be happy if some of them churches would just pay some Tax.Why start NOW? Society seemed to work fine in the first 130 years before corruption in government set in.
I pay taxes my business pays taxes so why should the church not pay taxes, because they are essentially a business. They are the foundation of all communities. Why would you want to destroy the communities in this country? Oh, you are not from the USA. Now I know why.
I just hate when people are so blinded and feel they deserve a free ride. :mad:I just hate it when people from a socialist country try to tell a country that is a republic how they should operate.

[5 star]

Actually, my decision to not vote for you is based on my knowledge of you based on your posts here.You are still an uneducated voter then. Brilliant.

[RoBoTeq]

You are still an uneducated voter then. Brilliant.
Sad but true; I am a lot dumber after having read your posts:p

[21degrees]

You are still an uneducated voter then. Brilliant.


You sound so educated. As far as my country and yours, taxes are taxes. Churchs are churchs and finally socialism is socialism. Is their something Im missing 5star? Since when did churchs become the foundation of communities. They usually don't open one until community is established. Educate me.

[5 star]

You sound so educated. As far as my country and yours, taxes are taxes. Churchs are churchs and finally socialism is socialism. Is their something Im missing 5star?Yes there is. If you do not know churches have been the foundation of our communities since the beginning of the settlers arriving, then you need to spend time educating yourself.
Since when did churchs become the foundation of communities. They usually don't open one until community is established. Educate me.So the earlier settlers did not meet anywhere to have fellowship and study the word of God until the wood was cut and the nails driven home you are saying, and when people loaded up their wagons to move west, I guess they did not have "church" along the way on Sundays either?

You are 100% wrong.

Google is your friend.

I hope I did not sound "so educated" for you.

[5 star]

Sad but true; I am a lot dumber after having read your posts:pI would have to agree, you certainly would be "more dumb", not "dumber" if you did not learn anything from them. :D

[21degrees]

Yes there is. If.

I am only 38 and you could be right 100 years ago. But we are talking about today and tomorrow, not 100 years ago. I do new construction and pay close attention to community development and you know how it works. A road gets built, a certain amout of houses are built, then you have a few stores, Then a school get developed and then went the church knows their might be a demand for a certain religion they open one up. I have yet to see a community built arround a church. I may be losing my eye sight but you losing the battle.;) You have been watching to much little house on the prairies

[5 star]

I am only 38 and you could be right 100 years ago. But we are talking about today and tomorrow, not 100 years ago. I do new construction and pay close attention to community development and you know how it works. A road gets built, a certain amout of houses are built, then you have a few stores, Then a school get developed and then went the church knows their might be a demand for a certain religion they open one up. I have yet to see a community built arround a church. I may be losing my eye sight but you losing the battle.;) You have been watching to much little house on the prairiesChurches start in peoples houses in new communities, hence the foundation of the "community". This is why you never see them at first. That is why you see them "later" in the development of the community. It takes time for the congregation, in people's houses, to save for the purchase of the land and save for a building fund.

Google is your friend if you want to learn.

I believe I just won this debate friend. ;)

[21degrees]

I must live in a protestan neighbourhood.:rolleyes: Are you a fan a micheal landon

[5 star]

I must live in a prodistan neighbourhood.:rolleyes: Are you a fan a micheal landonYes I am.

He was a great actor who committed himself to portraying good in the world and educating people of sound principles and morals. It is sad his life was cut short, but his son is carrying on his work.

[the dangling wrangler]

Taxes, anyone? :D

[RoBoTeq]

Yes there is. If you do not know churches have been the foundation of our communities since the beginning of the settlers arriving, then you need to spend time educating yourself. So the earlier settlers did not meet anywhere to have fellowship and study the word of God until the wood was cut and the nails driven home you are saying, and when people loaded up their wagons to move west, I guess they did not have "church" along the way on Sundays either?

You are 100% wrong.

Google is your friend.

I hope I did not sound "so educated" for you.
You remind me of Mr. Peabody on the old Rocky & Bullwinkle Show. He was the dog who would go back in time to show some goofball way that historical events "really" happened:rolleyes:

Religion in the American Colonial days was a mixed bag of refugees, cults and legitimately persecuted folks of faith. With the onslaught of the creation of the Church of England, all other denominations of faith were looked on as cultist in England.

In that regard, yes, religious organizations have been the foundation of American communities. That does not mean that all was good (pun intended), such as the communities surrounding Salem, Massachussetts. Do you really think the King of England allowed the organizations of faith that were exhiled from England to not pay taxes?

There is no reason why religious organizations should not pay taxes and file for tax exemption on monies that were used strictly for communal benefits.

[RoBoTeq]

I would have to agree, you certainly would be "more dumb", not "dumber" if you did not learn anything from them. :D
Sorry. Even though I was just being silly, I'm still correct;

dumb (dhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ubreve.gifm)
adj. dumb·er, dumb·est 1. a. Lacking the power of speech. Used of animals and inanimate objects.
b. Often Offensive Incapable of using speech; mute. Used of humans. See Usage Note at mute (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/mute).

2. Temporarily speechless, as with shock or fear: I was dumb with disbelief.
3. Unwilling to speak; taciturn.
4. Not expressed or articulated in sounds or words: dumb resentment.
5. Nautical Not self-propelling.
6. Conspicuously unintelligent; stupid: dumb officials; a dumb decision.
7. Unintentional; haphazard: dumb luck.

I've heard it said that "Google is your friend" (if you want to learn). Maybe we should practice what we preach.

[21degrees]

Sorry. Even though I was just being silly, I'm still correct;
[/COLOR][/I]

I've heard it said that "Google is your friend" (if you want to learn). Maybe we should practice what we preach.

I wonder what your response will be 5star, I think hes got a point. I don't agree with Robo much:D but he's got a point.

[5 star]

You remind me of Mr. Peabody on the old Rocky & Bullwinkle Show. He was the dog who would go back in time to show some goofball way that historical events "really" happened:rolleyes:Your posts are getting boring to read.


Religion in the American Colonial days was a mixed bag of refugees, cults and legitimately persecuted folks of faith. With the onslaught of the creation of the Church of England, all other denominations of faith were looked on as cultist in England.There were still a lot of protestants who came and stayed together. I do believe that is "why" they left England to begin with, get away from the church of England. :rolleyes:


In that regard, yes, religious organizations have been the foundation of American communities.Isn't that what I have been saying all along? :eek:
That does not mean that all was good (pun intended), such as the communities surrounding Salem, Massachussetts. Do you really think the King of England allowed the organizations of faith that were exhiled from England to not pay taxes?We are talking about taxes being paid since this country was founded, "NOT" before.


There is no reason why religious organizations should not pay taxes and file for tax exemption on monies that were used strictly for communal benefits.If you are a communist, and want the churches in this country destroyed, then you should protest for their demise.

Your colors are really showing.

[5 star]

Sorry. Even though I was just being silly, I'm still correct;
[/COLOR][/I]

I've heard it said that "Google is your friend" (if you want to learn). Maybe we should practice what we preach.Just because it is in webster, does not mean it is good grammar usage.

[5 star]

I wonder what your response will be 5star, I think hes got a point. I don't agree with Robo much:D but he's got a point.If you choose to use sentence structure as he does, then who am I to stop you.

Impressions say a lot on how you are perceived. You just might want to keep that little thought in mind.

[Mr Bill]

You remind me of Mr. Peabody on the old Rocky & Bullwinkle Show.
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l286/mrbillpro/mr_know-it-all.jpg


Been watching Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull pretty good flick guess I did not miss to much. :D

[x-wrenchturner]

Society seemed to work fine in the first 130 years before corruption in government set in.

For those of us in the uneducated back row, what year was it that corruption started again? :rolleyes:














Here, have another one of these :rolleyes: on me.



.

[sysint]

Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
You are simply wrong. Just pick up any Bible concordance and look up the translation of the ancient Greek word that has been translated to the word "kingdom". If you just want to remain ignorant of the facts, there is nothing we can any longer discuss. If you want to learn the truth, it is certainly easy enough to do so. I have already posted quite a bit of resources that support that the translated word "kingdom" in the New Testament has nothing to do with real estate.

What in the world would possess you to not want to understand what is factually determined as the truth?
I said we'll just disagree. Isnt that enough for you?

FWIW, I think I have a pretty good relationship with the Truth.

You wanna start judging me now?It's incredible that he can try to this completely ignorant about the definitive definition of kingdom with the definite article. Besides that it's obvious this kingdom is active as a government. But, for a guy that now wants to define kingdom it's entertaining because he was working so hard to justify the non-existent "good news of Salvation" phrase he was trying to push...

What it comes down to is the same with all these style religions -- they don't want to acknowledge it's about God and not them (ie their personal salvation) and his contract he sets up with people to live under his direction. I suppose that involves actual responsibility and he likes the fluffy aspect of not being accountable to a set of standards....

[RoBoTeq]

Your posts are getting boring to read.

There were still a lot of protestants who came and stayed together. I do believe that is "why" they left England to begin with, get away from the church of England. :rolleyes:

Isn't that what I have been saying all along? :eek: We are talking about taxes being paid since this country was founded, "NOT" before.

If you are a communist, and want the churches in this country destroyed, then you should protest for their demise.

Your colors are really showing.
OK, let's get something real straight here; you are being a jackass with your accusations that I am against faith based organizations. As most people who pay just a little attention on this forum know, I am a devout beleiver in Jesus Christ being my Lord and Saviour who just happens to feel that most organized religions are not only corrupt, but some are downright Satanic. That does not mean I think all of the people who support these religious organizations are evil intended, but rather duped by evil as they seek a relationship with God.

There is no reason to allow any organization to become as powerful as some of these religious organizations have become when much of what they do is mere self promoting from a purely business standpoint.

I agree that liberal attitudes deplete the faith factor of organized religions. Creating tax exempt status is more of a liberal ploy to obtain control of religious organizations then a conservative ploy to promote faith based business's. "Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar".

As great a man as Thomas Jefferson was, he was also a very contraversial man in his actions. Thomas Jefferson is known for supporting the advancement of his wife's chosen religion while he himself was at best, a Deist. If anything, Thomas Jefferson would have promoted tax exemption for religious organizations for the purpose of having some governmental hold over them.

[RoBoTeq]

Just because it is in webster, does not mean it is good grammar usage.
Yea, we got it; you don't like facts.

Maybe we can make a movie based on your way of reasoning; "The World According to 5 Star". I'm thinking a skinhead actor for the lead;)

[RoBoTeq]

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l286/mrbillpro/mr_know-it-all.jpg


Been watching Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull pretty good flick guess I did not miss to much. :D
Both Lisa and I enjoyed the new Indy movie. An episode of South Park tore it apart by claiming that Speilburg and Lucas raped Indy....it was still pretty funny.

[RoBoTeq]

Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
You are simply wrong. Just pick up any Bible concordance and look up the translation of the ancient Greek word that has been translated to the word "kingdom". If you just want to remain ignorant of the facts, there is nothing we can any longer discuss. If you want to learn the truth, it is certainly easy enough to do so. I have already posted quite a bit of resources that support that the translated word "kingdom" in the New Testament has nothing to do with real estate.

What in the world would possess you to not want to understand what is factually determined as the truth?It's incredible that he can try to this completely ignorant about the definitive definition of kingdom with the definite article. Besides that it's obvious this kingdom is active as a government. But, for a guy that now wants to define kingdom it's entertaining because he was working so hard to justify the non-existent "good news of Salvation" phrase he was trying to push...

What it comes down to is the same with all these style religions -- they don't want to acknowledge it's about God and not them (ie their personal salvation) and his contract he sets up with people to live under his direction. I suppose that involves actual responsibility and he likes the fluffy aspect of not being accountable to a set of standards....
Whatever guys. Since I don't absolutely know the mind of God anymore then anyone else does, I won't attempt to persuade you guys into investigating what is the latest known facts on Biblical text. I have done my job. I have passed on the Good News of Salvation. I have no authority to do anything more;)

[sysint]

Since you use your made up phrase so much have you made up your church to go along with your own made up doctrine? Why stop there, I'm thinking you can get some papyrus, jam it in a pottery canister after you add a few books... you could even reinvent Greek.

[RoBoTeq]

Since you use your made up phrase so much have you made up your church to go along with your own made up doctrine? Why stop there, I'm thinking you can get some papyrus, jam it in a pottery canister after you add a few books... you could even reinvent Greek.
I absolutely think often about my own ministry. It would be based primarlily on the Biblical passages attributed to Jesus (the red Words;)) supported by other testaments from both the Hebrew (Old) Testament, the New Testament and current advanced knowledge from related historical findings and entomological discoveries.

Since our base of knowledge changes with our discoveries of ancient artifacts, there is a possible shifting of views that occur in my studies. Along with my studies of historical Biblical venues I also rely heavily on prayer to guide me to True conclusions to the intent of Biblical passages.

I don't believe in doctrine and I don't believe in dogma. I believe in understanding the Truth of God's messages and commands to us through ancient theological writings and all other means of God's communicating with us.

I don't need to make up anything or change anything. I do however, not disregard the factual evidence that is already in our possession.

[5 star]

OK, let's get something real straight here; you are being a jackass with your accusations that I am against faith based organizations.You are against faith based establishments if you want to impede them from spreading the word of God by taxing them and CHANGING the way they have to operate in this country.

Your ideas stink, just like gun control laws stink. They both work the same. They take a little at a time, and your idea of taxing the churches would start the movement towards destroying the churches. We are already fighting off hate speech laws which is an attempt to destroy the church, and now we have YOU wanting to pour fuel on the fire.

All of these obstacles are real American aren't they? :rolleyes:

[RoBoTeq]

You are against faith based establishments if you want to impede them from spreading the word of God by taxing them and CHANGING the way they have to operate in this country.

Your ideas stink, just like gun control laws stink. They both work the same. They take a little at a time, and your idea of taxing the churches would start the movement towards destroying the churches. We are already fighting off hate speech laws which is an attempt to destroy the church, and now we have YOU wanting to pour fuel on the fire.

All of these obstacles are real American aren't they? :rolleyes:
What part of "tax exemption is a liberal ideal used so that government can have influence over religious organizations" alludes you?

Let me ask you something; do you support the tax exemptions for Buddhists, Muslims, Paganism, Wiccanism, Hinduism, claimed Christian faiths under leaders such as Benny Hinn and Jim Jones etc.?

[5 star]

What part of "tax exemption is a liberal ideal used so that government can have influence over religious organizations" alludes you?What part of limiting the work of the Lord, which would sway people away from liberalism, alludes you?


Let me ask you something; do you support the tax exemptions for Buddhists, Muslims, Paganism, Wiccanism, Hinduism, claimed Christian faiths under leaders such as Benny Hinn and Jim Jones etc.?The work of the Lord and the truth always wins in due time when people conduct research and spread the truth. Maybe the other faiths will eventually collapse.

Next question.

[RoBoTeq]

What part of limiting the work of the Lord, which would sway people away from liberalism, alludes you?

The work of the Lord and the truth always wins in due time when people conduct research and spread the truth. Maybe the other faiths will eventually collapse.

Next question.
You did not answer the question asked; do you agree that all faiths of the world should be exempt from taxation no matter what or how they believe?

If paying taxes were to limit the work of the Lord, which it could not, how do you explain the immense growth of Christianity and other faiths in areas where they are taxed?

Why do you defy Jesus's own words about taxation?

Why am I having a discussion with someone who prefers to remain ignorant of facts?

[5 star]

You did not answer the question asked; do you agree that all faiths of the world should be exempt from taxation no matter what or how they believe?You cannot chose what religion gets taxed and which one does not. The Constitution says freedom of religion last I looked, so how could you be selective as you are suggesting?


If paying taxes were to limit the work of the Lord, which it could not, how do you explain the immense growth of Christianity and other faiths in areas where they are taxed?We are not talking about other areas, we are talking about here in the states. Taxing limits funds, so yes it does limit the work of spreading the good news. Printing is not free and neither is fuel last I looked. Don't you pay for gas?


Why do you defy Jesus's own words about taxation?Interpretation lad. We each have our own in-ter-pre-ta-tion. What makes yours the only right one?


Why am I having a discussion with someone who prefers to remain ignorant of facts?Because you like groping men.

[RoBoTeq]

You cannot chose what religion gets taxed and which one does not. The Constitution says freedom of religion last I looked, so how could you be selective as you are suggesting?

Stop being such a weasel and answer the question straight forward; Do "YOU" support all religious organizations, including Eastern faiths, Islamic faiths, Wiccan faiths, Benny Hinn and Jim Jones types of Christianity etc. having tax exempt status? The question is not going to go away just because you are afraid of it!


We are not talking about other areas, we are talking about here in the states. Taxing limits funds, so yes it does limit the work of spreading the good news. Printing is not free and neither is fuel last I looked. Don't you pay for gas?
So, you don't think Americans are as good as others in the world? You think that Americans must have a monetary incentive in order to be religious?

As far as your examples of spending, I have already addressed those items to be eligible for tax exemption when they are used to promote their faith, but not when they are used for personal gain and for promoting a political agenda, which most religous organizations do.


Interpretation lad. We each have our own in-ter-pre-ta-tion. What makes yours the only right one?
Wrong! You are once again just plain wrong. Jesus's statement about taxes is not an interpretation at all. It is a very plainly put declaration that we are to pay taxes. That is exactly what the Pharisees were trying to trick Jesus about, and that is exactly what Jesus very bluntly addressed.

You try so hard to make yourself sound like you know what you are talking about while continuing to spew out garbage that is easily disproved. Why? Why would you be that deliberately ignorant?


Because you like groping men.
I'd say the one thinking about groping men is the real fag; not that there's anything wrong with that:rolleyes:

[5 star]

Stop being such a weasel and answer the question straight forward; Do "YOU" support all religious organizations, including Eastern faiths, Islamic faiths, Wiccan faiths, Benny Hinn and Jim Jones types of Christianity etc. having tax exempt status? The question is not going to go away just because you are afraid of it!What about Scientology. You left out Scientology?


So, you don't think Americans are as good as others in the world?I never said that. You are now planting words I have not spoken. That is very childish and liberal of you. I thought you were not a liberal.
You think that Americans must have a monetary incentive in order to be religious?Never said that either. What are you drinking tonight?


As far as your examples of spending, I have already addressed those items to be eligible for tax exemption when they are used to promote their faith, but not when they are used for personal gain and for promoting a political agenda, which most religous organizations do.Most religions promote a political agenda? I never see or hear that in churches I attend. What cult are you a member of that promotes politics in the service since you obviously hear it?


Wrong! You are once again just plain wrong. Jesus's statement about taxes is not an interpretation at all. It is a very plainly put declaration that we are to pay taxes. That is exactly what the Pharisees were trying to trick Jesus about, and that is exactly what Jesus very bluntly addressed.Personal income taxes are unconstitutional. Read your Constitution.


You try so hard to make yourself sound like you know what you are talking about while continuing to spew out garbage that is easily disproved. Why? Why would you be that deliberately ignorant?How come you seem to be the only one stating I am wrong. Are you God?


I'd say the one thinking about groping men is the real fag; not that there's anything wrong with that:rolleyes:Funny, I have seen you bring up the sweepies before, so that must make you a real fag too?

Isn't there a picture on this site of you dancing shirtless for your man friends?

[RoBoTeq]

What about Scientology. You left out Scientology?

I never said that. You are now planting words I have not spoken. That is very childish and liberal of you. I thought you were not a liberal.Never said that either. What are you drinking tonight?

Most religions promote a political agenda? I never see or hear that in churches I attend. What cult are you a member of that promotes politics in the service since you obviously hear it?

Personal income taxes are unconstitutional. Read your Constitution.

How come you seem to be the only one stating I am wrong. Are you God?

Funny, I have seen you bring up the sweepies before, so that must make you a real fag too?

Isn't there a picture on this site of you dancing shirtless for your man friends?
OK, it is now apparent you are just a fool either playing a fool's game or actually lacking in grey matter. Either way, I don't suffer fools, so I am done with you. Have fun talking to yourself.

[21degrees]

[QUOTE=5 star;2045230]You are against faith based establishments if you want to impede them from spreading the word of God by taxing them and CHANGING the way they have to operate in this country.Your ideas stink, just like gun control laws stink. They both work the same. They take a little at a time, and your idea of taxing the churches would start the movement towards destroying the churches. We are already fighting off hate speech laws which is an attempt to destroy the church, and now we have YOU wanting to pour fuel on the fire.



You are a fanatic and should have been at jones town. Maybe you are related to david koresh or someone in the branch div. People like you are very dangerous and are actually sick and need help. You think your beliefs are the only ones that should matter. People like you are what causes wars and the killing of innocent people (extremism) GO GET HELP and leave the Sheeep alone.:eek:

[RoBoTeq]

[quote=5 star;2045230]You are against faith based establishments if you want to impede them from spreading the word of God by taxing them and CHANGING the way they have to operate in this country.Your ideas stink, just like gun control laws stink. They both work the same. They take a little at a time, and your idea of taxing the churches would start the movement towards destroying the churches. We are already fighting off hate speech laws which is an attempt to destroy the church, and now we have YOU wanting to pour fuel on the fire.



You are a fanatic and should have been at jones town. Maybe you are related to david koresh or someone in the branch div. People like you are very dangerous and are actually sick and need help. You think your beliefs are the only ones that should matter. People like you are what causes wars and the killing of innocent people (extremism) GO GET HELP and leave the Sheeep alone.:eek:
Wow! Even I didn't think that badly of 5 star.....until you mentioned it:D

Actually, I did already ask if he was a Davidian;)

It is a shame that 5 star's type of thinking, or lack thereof, is exactly the kind of attitude that does cause so much conflict in the world, especially over religious matters.

[x-wrenchturner]

is exactly the kind of attitude that does cause so much conflict in the world, especially over religious matters.

Not to jump on the anti-star bandwagon, but I couldn't agree more.

[21degrees]

I went to church growing up. When I was in grade 8 my parents said it is your choice now if you want to come. I decided I would be better off sleeping in on sundays instead of going to church. Lately i have asked my wife if we should look into church and she is not in against it, but feels we don't have enough time right now and really don't know what to expect. My kids are 18, 15 and 5 and have never push them to go to church. The thing that scares me the most is meeting people like 5star who only think one way, the churchs way and have no room for debate. I did work for a church and tried helping them out with the purchase of a older building. I came in and checked the whole mechanical system and wrote a report on everything that was wrong or about to fail, I made the report in favor of the churches side, thinking I would get some work later on or maintenance off them. They bought the building, I did not get paid and have they have not even phoned me even to explain why. Oneday I will show up and steal the money back, they stole from me.:D

[RoBoTeq]

I went to church growing up. When I was in grade 8 my parents said it is your choice now if you want to come. I decided I would be better off sleeping in on sundays instead of going to church. Lately i have asked my wife if we should look into church and she is not in against it, but feels we don't have enough time right now and really don't know what to expect. My kids are 18, 15 and 5 and have never push them to go to church. The thing that scares me the most is meeting people like 5star who only think one way, the churchs way and have no room for debate. I did work for a church and tried helping them out with the purchase of a older building. I came in and checked the whole mechanical system and wrote a report on everything that was wrong or about to fail, I made the report in favor of the churches side, thinking I would get some work later on or maintenance off them. They bought the building, I did not get paid and have they have not even phoned me even to explain why. Oneday I will show up and steal the money back, they stole from me.:D
I've met people like 5 star in churches. I find they are a minority. Most folks who go to church are not very well versed in their faith. They go because they want to be good, decent people and the fellowship comforts them.

The last church I was a member of was a Lutheran Church. Lutherans can be a bit stodgy and overly conservative, but this church had a good mix of people and I enjoyed being with them. I taught adult Bible study classes there for about 5 summers. I found that most of those who even spent the time to attend Bible study didn't really know the Bible all that well. Most Christians just take for granted that what the paster tells them is absolute.

Church fellowship is good. Get with a few like thinking members of a church and actually study the Bible. You will not be dissapointed and never bored if you give Bible study a genuine go at.

[RoBoTeq]

Not to jump on the anti-star bandwagon, but I couldn't agree more.
I realize that you are a bit more liberal on more matters then I am, so please understand that there are 5 stars on the left just as there are 5 stars on the right. The further to any extreme we lean, the more unbalanced the overall state of affairs becomes.

[x-wrenchturner]

I realize that you are a bit more liberal on more matters then I am, so please understand that there are 5 stars on the left just as there are 5 stars on the right. The further to any extreme we lean, the more unbalanced the overall state of affairs becomes.

No doubt about it.