goodman vs. bryant or carrier Heat Pump/ac

[66mustang]

any thoughts or expierence with these brands - Ive heard different things depending on who uses what brand

[I_bend_metal]

Its not what kind of equipment you buy....it's how well the equipment is installed...equipment is equipment

[hvacsaavyhmownr]

I am far from a professional in terms of doing hvac for a living but I can speak from experience that would validate what you have been told. However, I am a licensed HVAC technician and have installed several systems myself. I have a special certification in indoor air quality. However, I must admit that I am still a neophyte compared to the heavy weight experts on this site (some of which have in excess of 40 years experience).

What I am about to say has been echoed from every publication I have ever read: installation matters more than brand. Here in the DC area, we have Washington Checkbook which rates contractors in terms of quality (and price). Angies list is another (I am relatively certain it is nationwide). Look them up on the internet if you are interested.

I think most would agree that Bryant/Carrier are superb systems assuming they are properly installed particularly the Evolution/Infinity line. I did over a year of research before I installed my first Carrier Infinity system. I am convinced it is the best system on the market at any price. I think most would agree that Trane/American Standard systems are good as well but Carrier has the edge with humidity control and overall ease of programming/seamless operation. There are hundreds of testimonials from satisfied owners of Carrier Infinity systems on this site alone. You can certainly find more. Perhaps in your neighborhood! The system has over 41 separate patents. Truly a marvel of engineering.

I have had two homes in the last 10 years. In both of them, I installed Carrier Infinity systems. The first was a gas heat/electric AC. Most recently, I installed 2 hybrid heat systems-Carrier Infinity with the Infinity air purifiers and large fan powered humidifiers. The infinity control (optional with all but the very top end systems) I would strongly recommend. I did not get the very highest AFUE furnace since Northern VA/DC area does not have exceptionally cold winters. It was not cost effective for our climate here. In any case, you may want to spring for the higher AFUE Carrier Infinity furnace(s): the infinity 96 or the ICS just based on how quiet they are. They are markedly quieter than what I purchased and the Infinity ICS is virtually silent. However, they both require special venting with PVC pipe. I was unable to justify the additional cost with the special venting but God knows I can still wish. lol ; - )


Regardless, I cannot say enough positive about Carrier Infinity systems. I am certain you would be more than pleased (assuming a good installation--with special attention to duct-work adequacy) No matter who does your system, I would insist on a load calculation (ideally have your ductwork sized properly too). You can do your own load calculation for about $50.00 if you wish. I did mine and it helped me jointly decide with my contractor what size was best. Bryant systems are the same animal with a different label and slightly different case/paint. In general, according to what I have been told, Bryant is slightly less expensive. They call their top end systems "Evolution" instead of Infinity. Bryant is actually made by Carrier and has different patents but they are essentially the same equipment relabeled.

Whatever you do, I would get the highest SEER/AFUE you can afford just below the top top of the line and definitely get variable speed. Gas isn't getting any cheaper and neither is electricity. As such, a hybrid heat system would be really good for almost any climate. A hybrid heat system will automatically shift between heat pump heating and gas (or oil or hydronic) depending on the outdoor temperature and the heat load of your house. A heat pump can heat your home at 1/2 to 1/3 the cost of gas. But, it loses its ability to effectively transfer heat from the outdoors as the temperature goes much below 25-35 or so. From a cost standpoint, using a heat pump instead of gas would be advisable until you reach the balance point of your home which is generally 25-37 degrees or so. It is at this point that your gas furnace (or other heat source) would take over. Also, heat pumps have advanced light years from the 70's and 80's during which time everyone complained that they blew cold air. Not so with the Carrier Infinity. It has remarkable "comfort heat technology" which automatically adjusts the fan speed and compressor stage to prevent drafty cooler air noted by older heat pump owners. The only caveat is the system isn't particularly cheap. However, there is a large rebate from Carrier until the end of this month and you may be eligible for another through your utility or state. This would bring the cost down to very competitive with mid-high to high end systems with other manufacturers. Conclusion: It is worth the money if it is within your means to spring for this incredible system.

Hope this helps. The pros on this site are superb. I am sure they would echo my sentiments. Good luck.

[skippedover]

Let's assume for a moment that you can find a company that will install any of the 3 brands you've mentioned. (Our company could offer 2 out of the 3). Which brand would you choose? Which one would they recommend? Comparing Goodman with Carrier/Bryant is kind of like comparing a Chevy with a Lexus. Both have their attributes and both will get the job done if assembled and maintained properly. But the Lexus most would agree is built a little tougher, has more creature comforts and costs more. You expect to get a manufacturer's warranty with both cars but with one you have a higher expectation of not having any problems. Goodman is a great product if installed properly. Carrier and Bryant are comparable as they're almost identical units outdoors and are the exact same units indoors. Either Carrier or Bryant can give you all kinds of trouble is installed improperly or superb comfort if installed properly. So.... I've included a little attachment to help you find a good company.

[I_bend_metal]

I am far from a professional in terms of doing hvac for a living but I can speak from experience that would validate what you have been told. However, I am a licensed HVAC technician and have installed several systems myself. I have a special certification in indoor air quality. However, I must admit that I am still a neophyte compared to the heavy weight experts on this site (some of which have in excess of 40 years experience).

What I am about to say has been echoed from every publication I have ever read: installation matters more than brand. Here in the DC area, we have Washington Checkbook which rates contractors in terms of quality (and price). Angies list is another (I am relatively certain it is nationwide). Look them up on the internet if you are interested.

I think most would agree that Bryant/Carrier are superb systems assuming they are properly installed particularly the Evolution/Infinity line. I did over a year of research before I installed my first Carrier Infinity system. I am convinced it is the best system on the market at any price. I think most would agree that Trane/American Standard systems are good as well but Carrier has the edge with humidity control and overall ease of programming/seamless operation. There are hundreds of testimonials from satisfied owners of Carrier Infinity systems on this site alone. You can certainly find more. Perhaps in your neighborhood! The system has over 41 separate patents. Truly a marvel of engineering.

I have had two homes in the last 10 years. In both of them, I installed Carrier Infinity systems. The first was a gas heat/electric AC. Most recently, I installed 2 hybrid heat systems-Carrier Infinity with the Infinity air purifiers and large fan powered humidifiers. The infinity control (optional with all but the very top end systems) I would strongly recommend. I did not get the very highest AFUE furnace since Northern VA/DC area does not have exceptionally cold winters. It was not cost effective for our climate here. In any case, you may want to spring for the higher AFUE Carrier Infinity furnace(s): the infinity 96 or the ICS just based on how quiet they are. They are markedly quieter than what I purchased and the Infinity ICS is virtually silent. However, they both require special venting with PVC pipe. I was unable to justify the additional cost with the special venting but God knows I can still wish. lol ; - )


Regardless, I cannot say enough positive about Carrier Infinity systems. I am certain you would be more than pleased (assuming a good installation--with special attention to duct-work adequacy) No matter who does your system, I would insist on a load calculation (ideally have your ductwork sized properly too). You can do your own load calculation for about $50.00 if you wish. I did mine and it helped me jointly decide with my contractor what size was best. Bryant systems are the same animal with a different label and slightly different case/paint. In general, according to what I have been told, Bryant is slightly less expensive. They call their top end systems "Evolution" instead of Infinity. Bryant is actually made by Carrier and has different patents but they are essentially the same equipment relabeled.

Whatever you do, I would get the highest SEER/AFUE you can afford just below the top top of the line and definitely get variable speed. Gas isn't getting any cheaper and neither is electricity. As such, a hybrid heat system would be really good for almost any climate. A hybrid heat system will automatically shift between heat pump heating and gas (or oil or hydronic) depending on the outdoor temperature and the heat load of your house. A heat pump can heat your home at 1/2 to 1/3 the cost of gas. But, it loses its ability to effectively transfer heat from the outdoors as the temperature goes much below 25-35 or so. From a cost standpoint, using a heat pump instead of gas would be advisable until you reach the balance point of your home which is generally 25-37 degrees or so. It is at this point that your gas furnace (or other heat source) would take over. Also, heat pumps have advanced light years from the 70's and 80's during which time everyone complained that they blew cold air. Not so with the Carrier Infinity. It has remarkable "comfort heat technology" which automatically adjusts the fan speed and compressor stage to prevent drafty cooler air noted by older heat pump owners. The only caveat is the system isn't particularly cheap. However, there is a large rebate from Carrier until the end of this month and you may be eligible for another through your utility or state. This would bring the cost down to very competitive with mid-high to high end systems with other manufacturers. Conclusion: It is worth the money if it is within your means to spring for this incredible system.

Hope this helps. The pros on this site are superb. I am sure they would echo my sentiments. Good luck.

So you like the Carrier Infinity System then??? :rolleyes:

[RyanHughes]

It has remarkable "comfort heat technology" which automatically adjusts the fan speed and compressor stage to prevent drafty cooler air noted by older heat pump owners.

Is it efficienct when it does that?

[hvacsaavyhmownr]

Well, I am not a mechanical engineer. But I would say this: probably less efficient. But if it is very uncomfortable ("cold blow"), but slightly more efficient, who the hell would want it?:eek:

I think the Carrier engineers are pretty smart fellas. Many people shy away from HP's because of the "cold blow" reputation that they once had. I know I was skeptical. Hmmmh, I said to myself. Dunno about that. A heat pump?

You guys are the pros. That's irrefutable. I just know that I am happy with my system and the peeps that put it in did a fine job.:D I am a duct work do do. That's why I had them do it. So to answer the aforementioned question my Mr I bend metal, I am elated with my system...Carrier Infinity. I am sure you know how to duct things right. I sure don't.

I also know that I once had a Goodman system of 3.5 tons and a POS Goodman furnace to match. After seven years, the thing had a cracked heat exchanger on the furnace and the compressor went to compressor heaven on the outdoor unit with a bad valve (likely...since it had low liquid pressure and high suction pressure?) Now, maybe the dude that originally installed it didn't pull a good vacuum on it. Moisture was in there and mixed with the oil and effed things up. I know for a fact it didn't have a filter dryer on it. The outdoor unit sounded like a freight train. Most manufacturers use copeland scrolls now so I wouldn't fault Goodman for the bad compressor because they do go bad sometimes. But the heat exchanger? Cracked after 7 years? Come on.

[I_bend_metal]

But the heat exchanger? Cracked after 7 years? Come on.


Carrier's are notorious for cracked heat exchangers....:rolleyes:

Then again....I find cracked HX's every day.....in every system.....

Carrier makes a good system....but there are many systems that can be put together and installed properly that will perform just as well....

[RoBoTeq]

Comparable features and benefits (efficiency etc.) on equipment that is comparably installed by a professional HVAC company will give comparable performance no matter what the brand.

All brands have had issues with certain models of equipment or certain components, many times the same component used on multiple brands.

The better brand in one area may not be a good brand in another area depending on the support of the HVAC distributor supplying that brand to contractors.

It is the overall system installation that makes the difference. In the end, the contractor must complete the manufacturing of the system in your home. So in the end, the contractor is the brand of system you will have.

[beenthere]

I wouldn't fault Goodman for the bad compressor because they do go bad sometimes. But the heat exchanger? Cracked after 7 years? Come on.

Check out the class action law suit against Carrier for bad heat exchangers.


The Carrier Infinity with Infinity control is probably the best all around system.

Now compare a Carrier ABA to any other brands builer grade.
Nothing special.

Not everybody that gets a Carrier gets the high end unit.

And depending which Infinity you have. It has a Bristol TS recip compressor.

[beachtech]

since we have concluded that carrier and goodman have thier faults :)

the guy should buy a trane :)

[RoBoTeq]

Well, I am not a mechanical engineer. But I would say this: probably less efficient. But if it is very uncomfortable ("cold blow"), but slightly more efficient, who the hell would want it?:eek:

I think the Carrier engineers are pretty smart fellas. Many people shy away from HP's because of the "cold blow" reputation that they once had. I know I was skeptical. Hmmmh, I said to myself. Dunno about that. A heat pump?

You guys are the pros. That's irrefutable. I just know that I am happy with my system and the peeps that put it in did a fine job.:D I am a duct work do do. That's why I had them do it. So to answer the aforementioned question my Mr I bend metal, I am elated with my system...Carrier Infinity. I am sure you know how to duct things right. I sure don't.

I also know that I once had a Goodman system of 3.5 tons and a POS Goodman furnace to match. After seven years, the thing had a cracked heat exchanger on the furnace and the compressor went to compressor heaven on the outdoor unit with a bad valve (likely...since it had low liquid pressure and high suction pressure?) Now, maybe the dude that originally installed it didn't pull a good vacuum on it. Moisture was in there and mixed with the oil and effed things up. I know for a fact it didn't have a filter dryer on it. The outdoor unit sounded like a freight train. Most manufacturers use copeland scrolls now so I wouldn't fault Goodman for the bad compressor because they do go bad sometimes. But the heat exchanger? Cracked after 7 years? Come on.
With your having had a good experience with Carrier and a bad experience with Goodman, I can understand your personal feelings. However, your feelings are based on specific personal experiences and not overall data.

As mentioned, Carrier has a class action law suit against them for failed heat exchangers. This is not the same failure that Goodman heat exchangers had. Carrier still uses the same design heat exchanger that Goodman (along with other manufacturers) had with that style of heat exchanger.

A major difference in brands having problems is how they deal with their problems. When York had recent problems with heat exchangers, York recalled all of those furnaces and designed a program to help those consumers who had those furnaces. When Goodman realized what was causing the problems with their heat exchangers (which had to have had overtemperature issues to fail) Goodman designed a program to help consumers who had those furnaces. When Carrier's heat exchangers failed, Carrier decided to deny any problems and continues to fight against those who have failed Carrier furnaces.

All equipment is prone to failure. It is how manufacturers deal with errors that makes one better then another.

[Mr Bill]

I think the Carrier engineers are pretty smart fellas.



Carrier's are notorious for cracked heat exchangers....:rolleyes:


Check out the class action law suit against Carrier for bad heat exchangers.


Yep pretty smart fellers. :D

[21degrees]

[QUOTE=beenthere;2025265]Check out the class action law suit against Carrier for bad heat exchangers.


Are We talking about the Secondary Heat Exchanger?
What Bad Heat Exchanger, show me 1 picture of a bad heat exchanger. Actually it was cheaper for Carrier to settle out of court than fight the plaintiffs and have 30 lawyers drag their name through the mud for 3 years. Their is nothing wrong with the secondary heat exchangers, they have changed nothing about the design pattent on them! they have change they way they are installed. :D


You should look at goodman for manufacture Faults and bad designs.:p

[I_bend_metal]

[QUOTE=beenthere;2025265]You should look at goodman for manufacture Faults and bad designs.:p


LOL....and Bryant and York and Armstrong and Lennox and Luxaire and Coleman and Concord and Amana and Heil and ...... need I go on???

:p :p ;)

[Mr Bill]

[quote=21degrees;2025530]


LOL....and Bryant and York and Armstrong and Lennox and Luxaire and Coleman and Concord and Amana and Heil and ...... need I go on???

:p :p ;)


Your right! but the blue oval folks are well blue oval folks, what else can I say. Hey you forgot RUUD and
that's what I sell, but RUUD is not a cult. :D

[hvacsaavyhmownr]

And I did read a great deal about the Carrier class action suit. However, it was mostly with the condensing furnaces, if I recall. I do believe that they used inferior grade metal instead of stainless steel in the secondary heat exchanger, to save money. Wrong idea especially on a high end product. I know the wholesale cost of those furnaces. And they aren't cheap even wholesale. When you lay down a lot of money for a Lexus, you shouldn't get a Yugo fit for a junk yard.

My humble opinion with Carrier doesn't totally hold water with hard data (or even long experience). You are right. I think I am more transfixed with the technology and male engineering love of the product. Just like a big screen plasma TV or a fancy stainless gas BBQ grill, iphone etc. What testosterone filled male can resist?

There are plenty of people angry with Carrier/Bryant in how they have treated (those who did have failed heat exchangers). I can't say that I blame them. According to what I remember reading, the failures were at the point where the primary and secondary heat exchangers meet. This makes sense to me because the failure point would be located where the temperatures would be hottest and the acid condensate would begin to form and stagnate. Those conditions wouldn't be favorable for any material no matter how corrosion resistant it is.

If I remember correctly, the problems involved literally millions of furnaces. I'm sure Carrier just felt that if they replaced everyone's furnace or everyone's heat exchanger, they would go bankrupt. Supplying parts is one thing but the labor too? YIKES! That would cost billions. But then again, they make billions selling commercial and residential HVAC equipment. They are the largest manufacturer of HVAC equipment on the planet.

Interestingly, Carrier makes Bryant, Heil, Comfortmaker, Day and Night, Payne, and Tempstar too. Ultimately, those lines with condensing furnaces would be affected by the class action suit too (wouldn't they?) Deciding what to do from a business/image and financial standpoint would be difficult for any big company executive to figure out. The thing to do is not to deny the problems in the face of strong evidence to the contrary. Carrier should have done the right thing. I glean that there is pretty strong evidence that they haven't and probably won't fix the problems to the satisfaction of those affected. Where does Carrier's liability end and the customer's responsibility begin? That is a difficult question to answer from an ethical standpoint. I think if it were me, I would protect my image and treat others how they would want to be treated.

One thing is for certain: Bad image is bad business. Irrefutably, the focus of any business is to make money. By extension, if you are a publicly traded company like United Technologies, you must achieve an equitable return on investment for your stockholders. If you don't, you lose them (and your revenue stream to do R&D, pay your people etc). But you shouldn't shaft a bunch of customers in the process who likely didn't do anything wrong. At the $2000-$4000 that it costs to replace a furnace, the screwed over Carrier/Bryant furnace owners with prematurely failed heat ex. have plenty of reason to be furious. Plus, many companies don't like to replace just a furnace due to the air flow match problems that can happen with older unmatched evaporator coils. Replacing both costs a freaking mint.


Carrier claims that the people with the failed heat exchangers "didn't maintain them properly". Whatever. How many HVAC companies clean out and FULLY inspect heat exchangers with a routine maintenance check anyway? That would take a couple hours done correctly by the manual. Doesn't happen in practice. I don't even clean out my own heat exchanger like it says to do.

On the other hand, the new furnaces made by Carrier do "appear" to be of better quality with longer warranties. I haven't seen the newest ones on the market. If I am not mistaken, the new condensing furnaces have a lifetime warranty on the heat ex (probably parts only). I have replaced a heat exchanger myself on a non-condensing furnace and it wasn't fun. I think if someone told me that I had to replace the heat exchanger on a condensing furnace, I would probably yell out with grief, run away and bury my head in the sand.

It is for this reason that I did not buy a condensing furnace. I wanted to buy the Carrier ICS for purely male, gadget and technology loving reasons. Then rational thought took over since I had already laid out a wad of cash for the top-end hybrid heat system. In troubled times, you don't spend money indiscriminately without a substantial rebate or tax credit or something to offset the cost. We have an oil and gas man in office now and he did not renew the tax credit in time for 2008 peeps who installed high efficiency equipment. I won't even touch that subject.

Goodman has much less jugular exposed (liability wise) in terms of number of furnaces installed, I would assume. They haven't been in the regular furnace or condensing furnace business for as long. Consequently, they were able to make amends and fix the issues more readily with their failed heat exchangers without losing their shirt. Again, I am no expert and my views are purely "in my very humble, honest opinion".:D

[beenthere]

[QUOTE=beenthere;2025265]Check out the class action law suit against Carrier for bad heat exchangers.


Are We talking about the Secondary Heat Exchanger?
What Bad Heat Exchanger, show me 1 picture of a bad heat exchanger. Actually it was cheaper for Carrier to settle out of court than fight the plaintiffs and have 30 lawyers drag their name through the mud for 3 years. Their is nothing wrong with the secondary heat exchangers, they have changed nothing about the design pattent on them! they have change they way they are installed. :D


You should look at goodman for manufacture Faults and bad designs.:p

Your correct on the secondary HX.

Goodman never waited 19 years to make coorections or take action though. :cool:

[RoBoTeq]

And I did read a great deal about the Carrier class action suit. However, it was mostly with the condensing furnaces, if I recall. I do believe that they used inferior grade metal instead of stainless steel in the secondary heat exchanger, to save money. Wrong idea especially on a high end product. I know the wholesale cost of those furnaces. And they aren't cheap even wholesale. When you lay down a lot of money for a Lexus, you shouldn't get a Yugo fit for a junk yard.

My humble opinion with Carrier doesn't totally hold water with hard data (or even long experience). You are right. I think I am more transfixed with the technology and male engineering love of the product. Just like a big screen plasma TV or a fancy stainless gas BBQ grill, iphone etc. What testosterone filled male can resist?

There are plenty of people angry with Carrier/Bryant in how they have treated (those who did have failed heat exchangers). I can't say that I blame them. According to what I remember reading, the failures were at the point where the primary and secondary heat exchangers meet. This makes sense to me because the failure point would be located where the temperatures would be hottest and the acid condensate would begin to form and stagnate. Those conditions wouldn't be favorable for any material no matter how corrosion resistant it is.

If I remember correctly, the problems involved literally millions of furnaces. I'm sure Carrier just felt that if they replaced everyone's furnace or everyone's heat exchanger, they would go bankrupt. Supplying parts is one thing but the labor too? YIKES! That would cost billions. But then again, they make billions selling commercial and residential HVAC equipment. They are the largest manufacturer of HVAC equipment on the planet.

Interestingly, Carrier makes Bryant, Heil, Comfortmaker, Day and Night, Payne, and Tempstar too. Ultimately, those lines with condensing furnaces would be affected by the class action suit too (wouldn't they?) Deciding what to do from a business/image and financial standpoint would be difficult for any big company executive to figure out. The thing to do is not to deny the problems in the face of strong evidence to the contrary. Carrier should have done the right thing. I glean that there is pretty strong evidence that they haven't and probably won't fix the problems to the satisfaction of those affected. Where does Carrier's liability end and the customer's responsibility begin? That is a difficult question to answer from an ethical standpoint. I think if it were me, I would protect my image and treat others how they would want to be treated.

One thing is for certain: Bad image is bad business. Irrefutably, the focus of any business is to make money. By extension, if you are a publicly traded company like United Technologies, you must achieve an equitable return on investment for your stockholders. If you don't, you lose them (and your revenue stream to do R&D, pay your people etc). But you shouldn't shaft a bunch of customers in the process who likely didn't do anything wrong. At the $2000-$4000 that it costs to replace a furnace, the screwed over Carrier/Bryant furnace owners with prematurely failed heat ex. have plenty of reason to be furious. Plus, many companies don't like to replace just a furnace due to the air flow match problems that can happen with older unmatched evaporator coils. Replacing both costs a freaking mint.


Carrier claims that the people with the failed heat exchangers "didn't maintain them properly". Whatever. How many HVAC companies clean out and FULLY inspect heat exchangers with a routine maintenance check anyway? That would take a couple hours done correctly by the manual. Doesn't happen in practice. I don't even clean out my own heat exchanger like it says to do.

On the other hand, the new furnaces made by Carrier do "appear" to be of better quality with longer warranties. I haven't seen the newest ones on the market. If I am not mistaken, the new condensing furnaces have a lifetime warranty on the heat ex (probably parts only). I have replaced a heat exchanger myself on a non-condensing furnace and it wasn't fun. I think if someone told me that I had to replace the heat exchanger on a condensing furnace, I would probably yell out with grief, run away and bury my head in the sand.

It is for this reason that I did not buy a condensing furnace. I wanted to buy the Carrier ICS for purely male, gadget and technology loving reasons. Then rational thought took over since I had already laid out a wad of cash for the top-end hybrid heat system. In troubled times, you don't spend money indiscriminately without a substantial rebate or tax credit or something to offset the cost. We have an oil and gas man in office now and he did not renew the tax credit in time for 2008 peeps who installed high efficiency equipment. I won't even touch that subject.

Goodman has much less jugular exposed (liability wise) in terms of number of furnaces installed, I would assume. They haven't been in the regular furnace or condensing furnace business for as long. Consequently, they were able to make amends and fix the issues more readily with their failed heat exchangers without losing their shirt. Again, I am no expert and my views are purely "in my very humble, honest opinion".:D
Boy do you ever write a lot of words while putting out a lot of misinformation:rolleyes:.

Carrier's secondary heat exchanger issue was not due to inferior metal, it was due to a plastic coating that over time deteriorated, clogging up the system.

Carrier does lead in many technological advancements to our industry, but not all of these technologies are actually new or innovative, just all put together in one easier to use control. Still, I can see the male technotestosterone standpoint;).

Again, your understanding of what went wrong with Carrier's heat exchangers is innacurate. It was simply a poor choice to coat the secondary heat exchanger. Our industry has had many issues over the years due to coatings.

It is true that Carrier is the largest HVAC equipment manufacturer on the planet...overall. In the residential market however, Carrier needs to include all of the ICP brands (Heil, Tempstar etc. ) to maintain the number one residential sales position. For single branded residential equipment installed in the U.S., Goodman is the leader.

It is also true that Carrier decided that it would be less expensive for them to deny fault and fight doing right by consumers who have the faulty Carrier furnaces then to take the responsibility to properly take care of the issue their design flaw has created. Other manufacturers have bitten that bullet, but Carrier decided to take the low road by denying responsibility.

Heil, Comfortmaker, Tempstar etc. are ICP brands that are owned by Carrier but not manufactured by Carrier.

You seem to dwell on Carrier making proper business decisions by not taking responsibility for their mistakes and you seem to think that is an ok thing to do. I am interested in how you would feel if your current Carrier system developes a proplem and Carrier just blows you off. I find it difficult to understand someone claiming to be a major fan of a company that is known for not standing behind it's equipment when they make a mistake.

As for your claim to changing out a heat exchanger yourself and it being difficult, it you are referring to changing out one of Goodman's clamshell heat exchangers on a non-condensing furnace, that is the easiest heat exchanger to change out on the market. Hell, doing training classes I would have one of those heat exchangers out in 20 minutes while telling the class step by step what I was doing.

Your assumption that Goodman has much less jugular exposed (liability wise) in terms of number of furnaces installed, is completely wrong. There are more Goodman branded furnaces installed in U.S. homes then any other single branded furnace. And Goodman did make good, and still do make good, on failures of their old style clamshell heat exchanger (what Carrier still uses) that fail due to exposure to overheating.

Whew! Please, ease up on how much you type so I don't have to correct so much:cool:.

[hvacsaavyhmownr]

Wordy? Perhaps. Inaccurate? I just was repeating what I read. It appears that the information I read was inaccurate. You would be more in the know being in the field. I admit being a neophyte. But I do read a lot.:D

[21degrees]

[QUOTE=21degrees;2025530]

Your correct on the secondary HX.

Goodman never waited 19 years to make coorections or take action though. :cool:


For your information Carrier never changed anything that I am aware of. They still spray a poly film on the Secondary. Carrier Now has a True 20 year parts and labour on all heat exchangers( not talking about limited life time warranty). Stainless is no better in my opinion. What hold you batteries acid in. (Stainless steel, not) plastic is way more versatile than any steel out there and stronger.:confused:


As far as Goodman they never told us lots about the garbage they were putting out in the 80 s and 90 s. The bad taste is still in my mouth.;)


You guys are totally right that they have all had their faults and Carrier is no exception, especially there $hitty mid efficient design in height and width, or the gauge of metal they use in all furnace shells (too thin).

[21degrees]

[QUOTE=I_bend_metal;2025533][QUOTE=21degrees;2025530]


LOL....and Bryant and York and Armstrong and Lennox and Luxaire and Coleman and Concord and Amana and Heil and ...... need I go on???



I am just defending the false statements, so consumers reading this won't be mislead.

Carrier and Bryant have the same spec for furnaces, ICP has a different spec and payne I don't think has any spec, it is just the pieces left on the ground from other furnaces:D, but they do all come from same plant.

[RoBoTeq]

[quote=beenthere;2025660]


For your information Carrier never changed anything that I am aware of. They still spray a poly film on the Secondary. Carrier Now has a True 20 year parts and labour on all heat exchangers( not talking about limited life time warranty). Stainless is no better in my opinion. What hold you batteries acid in. (Stainless steel, not) plastic is way more versatile than any steel out there and stronger.:confused:


As far as Goodman they never told us lots about the garbage they were putting out in the 80 s and 90 s. The bad taste is still in my mouth.;)


You guys are totally right that they have all had their faults and Carrier is no exception, especially there $hitty mid efficient design in height and width, or the gauge of metal they use in all furnace shells (too thin).
A 20 year warranty on heat exchangers is the minimum warranty I've seen in the past dozen or so years. Other manufacturer's have limited lifetime warranties that revert to 20 year standard warranty if there is a change of HO.

I still see plenty of 1980s Goodman furnaces installed in apartment complexes that are still going strong.

[RoBoTeq]

[quote=I_bend_metal;2025533][quote=21degrees;2025530]


LOL....and Bryant and York and Armstrong and Lennox and Luxaire and Coleman and Concord and Amana and Heil and ...... need I go on???



I am just defending the false statements, so consumers reading this won't be mislead.

Carrier and Bryant have the same spec for furnaces, ICP has a different spec and payne I don't think has any spec, it is just the pieces left on the ground from other furnaces:D, but they do all come from same plant.
The ICP brands are being made in the Carrier plants now? Didn't Carrier just close down a plant in New England somewhere and replace it with one in Mexico?

[hvacsaavyhmownr]

I don't advocate or believe in what they did. Treat others how you would want to be treated is the right thing to do (which is what I said) They didn't (clearly) as you pointed out. That didn't stop me from buying two complete systems and spending $16k for the whole set-up including humidifiers, purifers, infinity controls and ERV.

No worries. I just like my system. There are other systems out there that are good too. What kind of system do you have in your home, dude? :D I gather it ain't a Carrier lol.

Again, Roboteq, you are the pro, not me. I give you credit and I will shutup now

[RoBoTeq]

I don't advocate or believe in what they did. Treat others how you would want to be treated is the right thing to do (which is what I said) They didn't (clearly) as you pointed out. That didn't stop me from buying two complete systems and spending $16k for the whole set-up including humidifiers, purifers, infinity controls and ERV.

No worries. I just like my system. There are other systems out there that are good too. What kind of system do you have in your home, dude? :D I gather it ain't a Carrier lol.

Again, Roboteq, you are the pro, not me. I give you credit and I will shutup now
I was at one time a Carrier dealer and would have no problem putting Carrier in my home. Then again, I would have no problem putting any brand in my home because I would be the one putting it in and I would know there was nothing wrong with it.

I currently have a bottom of the line new Goodman heat pump on top of an old Williamson oil furnace with an aftermarket DX coil. Like I said; it don't matter to me what the brand is. It's all basically the same stuff.

Eventually a used Amana condensor is going to supply an attic cooling system with a variable speed Goodman/Amana corporate air handler. I just might convert the condensing unit to a heat pump if I fell frisky:rolleyes:

[AggieEngineer]

[quote=21degrees;2025908][quote=I_bend_metal;2025533]
The ICP brands are being made in the Carrier plants now? Didn't Carrier just close down a plant in New England somewhere and replace it with one in Mexico?

ICP furnaces are made in Indianapolis... I didn't think I've ever heard of Carrier having any manufacturing plants in New England.

[MLeonhardt]

any thoughts or expierence with these brands - Ive heard different things depending on who uses what brand

I am really satisfied with the equipment : Heat Pump and variable speed air handling of the Goodman unit. I would only buy the 16 seer unit because of the standard features of the Condensor . Like high side and low side shutoff and the expansion valve on the condensor and the scroll compressor.

If you are using heat strips for Aux. and Emergency heat make sure they are sized correctly and couple the unit with a Honeywell IAC thermostat. That way any of the bells and whistles you install now or later can be easy to install.

Whatever unit you decide on , I wish you good luck.

[21degrees]

[quote=21degrees;2025893]
A 20 year warranty on heat exchangers is the minimum warranty I've seen in the past dozen or so years. Other manufacturer's have limited lifetime warranties that revert to 20 year standard warranty if there is a change of HO.

I still see plenty of 1980s Goodman furnaces installed in apartment complexes that are still going strong.

Yah 20 years parts not labour. Limited life time on heat exchanger. Their is alot of fine print in their. Where as Carrier has just come out with 20 years parts and 20 Labour, does limited life time mean labour ,No!

Yah I have seen Carrier furnaces and A/C go into 30+ years, not to many goodmans can last 20 years here in Canada, especially with their generic electrical conponents. We had 1 area they didn't last 10 years. Might have been contractor over sizing might not.;)

[Mr Bill]

I still think I have the very best prospective of "all" the a/c and heating equipment sold today "They all suck in some way" none have been perfected yet, if so we would all be out of business. http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l286/mrbillpro/1.gif

[Mr Bill]

not to many goodmans can last 20 years here in Canada, ;)


Probably because of the installations, not many folks know how to install a quality piece of equipment right. :D :eek:

[21degrees]

[quote=21degrees;2025908][quote=I_bend_metal;2025533]
The ICP brands are being made in the Carrier plants now? Didn't Carrier just close down a plant in New England somewhere and replace it with one in Mexico?

Not sure about that. That does suck. All coils except hot water coils are made in mexico and it won't be long before more will be shipped there probably. I won't support them when that happens. The damage they did in syracuse is pretty upsetting. They use to employee 7,000 +employees now down to under 2000. Just a wharehouse now. They still have 3 major facilities is the U.S and then they have their Asia and Europe facilities.

[21degrees]

Probably because of the installations, not many folks know how to install a quality piece of equipment right. :D :eek:


But then why are other products lasting 30 to 40 years.;) I don't no why I defend the Oval because you think they would back me if something ever went wrong.:eek:

[RoBoTeq]

There is no doubt about the fact that overall, Carrier is a good company that makes mostly good products. I just wish they wouldn't have pulled some of the dodging of responsibility they have done over the years. I'm still not over how Carrier just walked away with the problems they had with their aluminum spine fin coils of the 1980s. Talk about a product that didn't last.

On the other hand, how can all Goodman products be put down when their are still so many of them operational? It still mostly boils down to application (proper sizing number one) and installation.

[Focko]

I didn't read the whole thread, but . .

If there was any brand of equipment that could stand up to poor installation and work as intended, that would be a miracle.


I'll take a well-installed Brand X over a poorly installed Lennox or Trane any day.

When you have a system installed, you are paying for a lot more than just the steel, copper, wires, refrigerant and all. Hopefully you get what you pay for.

If we were to assume that all installations were done equally, then the brand and model would matter a lot more.

[dash]

Too funny,IMHO.

[RoBoTeq]

Too funny,IMHO.
Do tell dash, what is it you find too funny?

[dash]

The thread,same "O" same "O",some characters change ,some remain the same,and most of us know who and what they are.They just continue to show their true colors,again just humble opinion.

[Focko]

That doesn't sound very "humble". But I won't get into the politics too much here, since I'm new.

[hvacsaavyhmownr]

I am what you would call a "wannabe". One who should read and not write/type.:)

[Focko]

Good morning all.

ZZZ for me.

[66mustang]

thanks to all who took the time to give me an honest reply - I guess it all comes down to the install. I have forced hot air (no gas so the unit doesnt switch over at a certian temp) I have an indoor unit which is about 6 years old (bryant) and currently the outside unit is a trane (which has lasted about 10 years). The outside unit has frayed wires and a leak - wonder how this happens has I have a service contract with a local HVAC and they come out twice a year to check everything I guess its one of those things that is not something that can be avoided. So the outside unit must be replaced - the inside unit can stay (or go) I have heard different things from different installers regarding brand quailty so I thought I would go to someone who might not have a vested interest in selling me something....

[beenthere]

See if Bryant has an outdoor unit that is a listed AHRI match up to your existing indoor unit.

If, not, then get a new indoor unit. Or coil.

[RoBoTeq]

If you put a new outdoor unit in using the existing indoor unit, you will have a six year old system with a big new part.

[mothergoose45]

Check out the class action law suit against Carrier for bad heat exchangers.


The Carrier Infinity with Infinity control is probably the best all around system.

Now compare a Carrier ABA to any other brands builer grade.
Nothing special.

Not everybody that gets a Carrier gets the high end unit.

And depending which Infinity you have. It has a Bristol TS recip compressor.

I just got an Infinity system installed yesterday which has the recip compressor. Will that hurt anything? Are they bad or something? I did get 10 yr parts and labor.

[adrianf]

I just got an Infinity system installed yesterday which has the recip compressor. Will that hurt anything? Are they bad or something? I did get 10 yr parts and labor.

No. Now enjoy your new system.