Electronic Air Cleaner Cell Noise

[aspen1]

I had installed a high efficiency Carrier Infinity 96 along with a Carrier Electronic Air Cleaner (EAC) in Sept 08. The furnace runs constantly on low speed as we wanted, but I get a constant high pitch humming sound around the EAC when the furnace runs on the low speed. The sound almost disappears when I open the EAC door and completely disappears when I remove the EAC cells. I spoke to the installer and he said that it could be air going thru the EAC cells causing the noise because in some homes the cold air duct is not big enough to accommodate the required air movement. When the furnace goes into the heat cycle and the fan speed increases, the noise goes away. You can only hear it in the furnace room and of course our bedroom, which is right over the furnace and at night, this high pitch humm sounds much louder.
Has anyone heard of this problem before ? If this noise is from the air passing thru the EAC cells, is there any way for me to reduce or eliminate this humming sound without taking out the EAC all together. Replacing the ductwork is out of the question. The house is a 36 years old 1100 sq.ft home.

[cem-bsee]

typical when one does not do a complete design for a system
& then use the design --
a system is comprised of all of the devices, the ductwork, & the installation.

[t527ed]

if the sound goes away when blower speed increases i doubt it is a duct problem.

could be some kind of harmonics just caused by that low air speed.

maybe installer could try some different speeds for low speed fan to see if noise goes away.:cool:

[21degrees]

1) Did you get Infinity controller.
2) What size of furnace was Installed.
3) What size is the return air.
4) Are their any leaks on return side.

[aspen1]

1. Yes I have Infinity controller
2. Furnace is 60000 btu
3. Return is 23"x8"
4. I suspect the ducts have leaks. Although I taped the ducts where they joined the EAC.

Since my posting I removed the EAC cells and closed the door to the EAC and the sound came back.

[coolwhip]

Perhaps some turning vanes in the return boot might help.

[21degrees]

[QUOTE=aspen1;2019079]1. Yes I have Infinity controller
2. Furnace is 60000 btu
3. Return is 23"x8"
4. I suspect the ducts have leaks. Although I taped the ducts where they joined the EAC.

Go to thermostat and press advance and hold for 20 seconds or till screen changes. Then press service. Then press status of furnace and tell us what the static pressure is. Example 0.3 or 1.1 Put cells back in before doing this.

[aspen1]

[QUOTE=aspen1;2019079]1. Yes I have Infinity controller
2. Furnace is 60000 btu
3. Return is 23"x8"
4. I suspect the ducts have leaks. Although I taped the ducts where they joined the EAC.

Go to thermostat and press advance and hold for 20 seconds or till screen changes. Then press service. Then press status of furnace and tell us what the static pressure is. Example 0.3 or 1.1 Put cells back in before doing this.


Static pressure is .09

[beachtech]

the sound of an air leak :)

something is more than likely not sealed very well. and your static reading seems eroneous

[aspen1]

the sound of an air leak :)

something is more than likely not sealed very well. and your static reading seems eroneous


I checked again and the static pressure shows as 0.09.

[firecontrol]

Try this....... there should be a return grill in your bedroom. While the fan is in low speed and you hear the noise....... take you hand, put your fingers like you're going to pick up a softball and then place all 5 fingers on the front of the grilll anywhere. If the noise goes away the noise you're hearing is a harmonic in the return air grill itself. This in not that uncommon. Try a few other return air grills if the first one you try doesn't make the sound go away.

Most times, taking a vacumn with a brush type attachment on the hose, and cleaning the grill will make the noise go away....... for awhile until the dust builds back up again. Not saying your house is dusty..... but a very fine layer of dust, one that you might not see can change the characteristics of the grill enough to make it "sing".

Good luck.

[aspen1]

Tried the fingers at the grill. No difference in sound. But 21 Degrees gave me an idea so I went back to the thermostat and I saw code 32- Low pressure switch open. It sort of ties in with what Beachtech was saying about an erroneous static pressure reading. I will get back to the installer again and try to convince him to come out to have a look. And the install is an authorized dealer, so far I'm not impressed with his customer service.

[21degrees]

Ask your contractor why static pressure is so high. It will hurt that expensive motor in time and makes system load on high fire. That was a high fire static pressure reading wasn't it. You can tell by status operation. How many code 32 faults are there. You can check the fault history. Where are you located aspen?

[adrianf]

21

Look at posted static again .09 not .9

[21degrees]

My mistake:p

[aspen1]

Ask your contractor why static pressure is so high. It will hurt that expensive motor in time and makes system load on high fire. That was a high fire static pressure reading wasn't it. You can tell by status operation. How many code 32 faults are there. You can check the fault history. Where are you located aspen?

Waiting for "my guy" to return my call. The reading of .09 was from the thermostat under furnace status/static pressure. I had only one code 32 yesterday but this a.m. it was up to 2. Am located in Winnipeg Manitoba.

[21degrees]

Waiting for "my guy" to return my call. The reading of .09 was from the thermostat under furnace status/static pressure. I had only one code 32 yesterday but this a.m. it was up to 2. Am located in Winnipeg Manitoba.

Sound like you might have a venting issue and when it goes into high fire it trips out on pressure switch. Might be trapping water some where. Does the venting exhaust have slope all the way back to furnace.

[aspen1]

Sound like you might have a venting issue and when it goes into high fire it trips out on pressure switch. Might be trapping water some where. Does the venting exhaust have slope all the way back to furnace.

Installer is coming Thurs or Fri. He didn't really want to come as he maintains that the hum sound I have is a cold air duct problem. When I told him about the code 32, he reluctantly agreed to send someone out.

This started out as what I thought was a EAC hum but it may become something different.

Venting exhaust has good slope, the gas inspector even commented on the slope cause I have a high ceiling in the basement.

Something else I would like to ask as I am new to the high efficiency furnaces. We've had the furnace for about 5 weeks and not once has it every gone into high speed when going thru it's cycle in the mornings. We have our temp set back by 5C for the night. The only time we get the high speed is if I manually increase the temp. I have no complaints but wonder if this is normal?

Thx for the help

[21degrees]

[QUOTE=aspen1;2020253]

During the learning curve of the furnace(first 2 to 4 weeks), it should kick on to high fire as long as their is a 2 degree difference. Look at run cycles during the winter and you should see some high fire run hours. Also 1 more thing with code 32 is the condesate drain producing water and is the furnace pitch towards the front at least 5/16" (the back should be higher than the front) if not you can trap condensate in secondary heat exchanger.

[aspen1]

Service guy, who is a Carrier authorized dealer, said that the noise I am hearing is common because there is a resistance with air going thru the EAC. The filter is much thicker so it is normal to have the humm sound. It's because the speed of the fan is just at that level that produces a sound. I guess I will have to live with it.

As for the code 32, he didn't put much weight on it because the code appeared on the thermostat and not on the furnace. He couldn't find anything wrong with the way the furnace was running. And since we had only 3 events in the last week that I should keep an eye on it. If it gets worse, he will come down to have a look. He said that static pressure of .09 was okay.

I didn't expect him to go ahead and replace parts on my say so, but I sure would have been more confident had he did some tests. It was as if he really did not know what code 32 meant or how to look for signs of problems. He spoke about venting but was confident that venting was okay.
I'll have to just wait and see if this problem gets any bigger in the next month.

[21degrees]

[QUOTE=aspen1;2022746]As for the code 32, he didn't put much weight on it because the code appeared on the thermostat and not on the furnace. He couldn't find anything wrong with the way the furnace was running. And since we had only 3 events in the last week that I should keep an eye on it.


Aspen 3 faults in 2 weeks yet alone 1 week, their is an issue with his Install or part. He should have at least done some tests. He is misleading you when he says the code 32 is on the thermostat and not furnace. Also as far as the noise I would be leary. Contact Carrier if he doesn't come through. We are the only Factory Authorized Dealer west of Ontario right to BC. Make him test the pressure differential on the venting and see if he even knows how.

[aspen1]

[QUOTE=aspen1;2022746]As for the code 32, he didn't put much weight on it because the code appeared on the thermostat and not on the furnace. He couldn't find anything wrong with the way the furnace was running. And since we had only 3 events in the last week that I should keep an eye on it.


Aspen 3 faults in 2 weeks yet alone 1 week, their is an issue with his Install or part. He should have at least done some tests. He is misleading you when he says the code 32 is on the thermostat and not furnace. Also as far as the noise I would be leary. Contact Carrier if he doesn't come through. We are the only Factory Authorized Dealer west of Ontario right to BC. Make him test the pressure differential on the venting and see if he even knows how.


Thanks 21 for responding. I will get in touch with Carrier and follow up with them first before going back to my guy. I'm sure my guy will come back, cause I'm looking for a AC next year and he knows it. But I have this gut feeling that although his installer may be a certified gas fitter etc, he knows very little about the workings of the new furnaces. He sort of had this blank stare and a lot of head scratching when confronted with code 32. I don't want to sound like a complainer or whiner until I have the goods in hand.

Re: Factory Authorized Dealer, when I looked up who dealer in Winnipeg was, my guy was listed along with 3-4 more. If you are the only one, is there a different level of Authorized dealers or is this a play of words by Carrier? Like he is a Carrier Dealer but you are the Authorized Dealer?

[21degrees]

[QUOTE=21degrees;2023029]


Re: Factory Authorized Dealer, when I looked up who dealer in Winnipeg was, my guy was listed along with 3-4 more. If you are the only one, is there a different level of Authorized dealers or is this a play of words by Carrier? Like he is a Carrier Dealer but you are the Authorized Dealer?

9596

Their is a stringent critieria to meet.

1) 100% customer satisfaction.
2) 50% Technicians have to be Nate certified and not just Gas fitter.
3) Every customer gets survey card and we have to maintain customer satisfaction level of 80% or higher or Carrier can revoke renewal.
4) Proper Insurances in place.
5) 24 Hour emergency service
6) We have to attend 2 Carrier University coarses every year.

Their are some more stipulations, but these are the important ones.

[aspen1]

Well I finally got the installer out to take another listen to the noise coming from the furnace and to fix the code 32 that I was getting. When he came out there were 4 events. He said there was a bulletin or notice from Carrier saying this problem was common and that by disabling the part that shows me the % usage of my EAC that the problem would go away. And no, he did not do any pressure check, he just traced the hoses on the furnace to see if they were connected properly. As for the whistling noise I spoke about, he and his helper agreed that the noise was coming from the blower area. He put his ear to the furnace and said that the blower sounded like the bearing was going. He was to speak to his boss and get back to me. A week later I phoned the boss and he said that in all of the furnaces he has installed, he has never replaced the blower but that he was going to talk to the rep and get back to me. A week later his installer phoned saying that they have the blower and could they come to put it in the next day. Unfortunately, we couldn’t be home so we put it off for another week. Today I phoned the boss asking when we could get the installer in, he tells me he is not going to replace the blower until there is a bulletin from Carrier. He does not want to be stuck with a $600 blower if the blower is not the problem. He told me he is meeting with the Carrier rep next week and that I should check with him in 2 months. So I told him about the code 32 and that it is up to 8 events, he said he’ll have the installer look at it. The same guy who wiggles the hoses.
I am reluctant to wait 2 months. The noise we hear more so in the evening and night and I would like to get this code 32 fixed. Should I now go to Carrier and ask them to provide me with another opinion or should I try the other Carrier installers, at my expense, to see what they say the problem may be and to fix this code 3 issue. I just do not have any faith in the company I'm dealing with.

[dash]

.09 is very low,could be an issue.What was the cfm reading at .09?

What model EAC?

Can you post pics of furnace,EAC and cnnecting ducts??

[aspen1]

Dash


RPM's is 388. Eac is Carrier model SASC-11ASC. Not able to post pics of furnace or eac. Duct is 23x7 at the eac join. The noise is more of a high pitch hum. I compare it to the noise of the older winter tires on the highway, if u go back that far!! I silver taped all of the joins at the eac/duct thinking that there was a gap that created that humming sound but that did not work. I removed all of the cells and screen in the eac and all of the cold air registers, still no difference. The only thing that made the noise go away is when you leave the eac door open when the cells and screen is removed or if I removed the 10x6 opening between the furnace and the ac evaporator. There is a "door" put in to allow me to clean the evaporator when needed. Hope this info helps solve the problem.

[dash]

The 7" drop creates a lot of turbulence where the air enters the EAC,could be the problem.

Not sure why opening the "door" stops the noise.

[gasguy]

The noise is definitely sounding more like a harmonic issue. If you put your hand on the duct or furnace can you feel any vibration (even verry slight)? It could be a loose fan motor or housing mount, or slightly out of balance blower wheel.

As for the code 32 issue, has it gotten more windy since the codes started appearing? Is it a concentric vent kit (cone-shaped end) or two seperate pipes on the outside of the house? If the venting is sized correctly and intalled with proper slope and the furnace is sloped and draining properly it could be an issue with the location of the vent termination. The inducer motors on those are controlled so they run just fast enough to keep the pressure switch closed. We have had this issue before where on windy/gusty days, these faults started occuring. One case required moving the vent termination to a more sheltered side of the house. Another was only an occasional problem dependant on wind direction so was left as is. As long as it is not occuring frequently enough to cause the furnace to go into lockout it's not a critical issue.

Just thought of another thing: next time the installer comes out see if they installed the vent restrictor disk. It is a round white plastic perforated disk that goes in the combustion air intake housing and can cause issues if it is not installed.

[aspen1]

Gasguy

I do have the concentric vent kit. I faces south and is about 4 feet from the ground and 8 feet from a 6' solid fence so I can';t see wind as being a factor. As for windy days, I haven't noticed any that was that windy. But I'll keep a mental note for the next windy day. The slope is more than the 3" and there is water draining from the furnace.
I put my hand up against the duct and furnace as you suggested and can not feel any vibration. The loudest noise seems to be coming from the back of the furnace/eac area, down low. If it is turbulence then is there a fix other than complete replacement of the duct.The noise is driving us crazy, like scratching a blackboard 24 hrs a day, you can ignore it for just so long. I sure am disappointed with the unit so far and the installer for not trying to rectify the problem. I guess that is why he is not to concerned about code 32.

[21degrees]

I usually use at least 9.5"x 25" and sometimes bigger. I have never use a drop that small and DASH is right about turbulent flow. Do the have radius boot at the bottom or straight duct to the ground. I would get Carrier involved. To me is sounding like air flow issues. As far as changing motor, if its noisey change it out. He will not get stuck with bill. Good Luck


PS ; Don't be upset at equipment, it sounds to me the company is not doing their part.

[dash]

Dash


RPM's is 388. Eac is Carrier model SASC-11ASC. Not able to post pics of furnace or eac. Duct is 23x7 at the eac join. The noise is more of a high pitch hum. I compare it to the noise of the older winter tires on the highway, if u go back that far!! I silver taped all of the joins at the eac/duct thinking that there was a gap that created that humming sound but that did not work. I removed all of the cells and screen in the eac and all of the cold air registers, still no difference. The only thing that made the noise go away is when you leave the eac door open when the cells and screen is removed or if I removed the 10x6 opening between the furnace and the ac evaporator. There is a "door" put in to allow me to clean the evaporator when needed. Hope this info helps solve the problem.

Need to know the cfms ,not rpms.

[aspen1]

I will get Carrier involved starting Monday. I don't care if it costs me a few dollars, so long as it is fixed. I have a radius boot. And Dash, the cfm's is 450.
Thanks for your input and suggestions

[gasguy]

Is the 6' fence running paralell to the house wall? That can in effect create a 'wind tunnell' with turbulence created by objects/protrusions in the 'tunnel' area. What is the direction of the commonly prevailing wind?

Another thought about the EAC: if you turn the power off to the EAC and run the blower do you still have the noise? Wondering if it is humming from the transformer in the EAC power pack? Don't put the blame on the equipment just yet. 90+% of the time the problem is with the installation rather than the equipment. You have a good unit, but even the best equipment will not perform properly if the installation is poor. Sounds like your installer needs some education in the terms 'customer service and satisfaction'.

[dash]

Is the 6' fence running paralell to the house wall? That can in effect create a 'wind tunnell' with turbulence created by objects/protrusions in the 'tunnel' area. What is the direction of the commonly prevailing wind?

Another thought about the EAC: if you turn the power off to the EAC and run the blower do you still have the noise? Wondering if it is humming from the transformer in the EAC power pack? Don't put the blame on the equipment just yet. 90+% of the time the problem is with the installation rather than the equipment. You have a good unit, but even the best equipment will not perform properly if the installation is poor. Sounds like your installer needs some education in the terms 'customer service and satisfaction'.

Yeah,thst's true

[aspen1]

gasguy
U could be right. I never thought of the wind tunnel effect. The fence is south side and parallel to house and winds are mostly north & west during the winter months. But we have not had much wind in the last week yet is something to consider.
As for the EAC, the noise is constant with power off or on. But if I take out the cells and the filters and leave the eac door off, the sound disappears. If you put your ear to the furnace at blower level, you can hear the sound very faintly. The guy who installed it said that he though it was the blower, it's his boss who nixed the idea to replace it. When I spoke to the owner, I told him if it is not a furnace equipt problem then it is an install issue but he just told me to wait 2 months and call him back.

I think the unit is a good one as well, I did a lot of checking on makes before I bought. If I sound like sour grapes, it because I'm disappointed in the company who I hired to do the installation. I gave this guy 2 other furnaces to install on my say. The other 2 people have no problems and one of them also had the Carrier eac installed like I did. I guess I got the short straw..

[gasguy]

Let's see:
EAC assebled, power on or off -noise
EAC cells out and door off-no noise
EAC cells out, door ON-??

That would eliminate the cells as the cause. From what I can hear over the interweb :D , It sounds like either a turbulace/airflow issue or motor/bearing noise. If it is the motor bearings making the noise, having the door off pretty much removes the 'load' on the return side so the motor isn't working as hard and it stops. I would have them confirm the static pressure that the UI is showing just in case it's a bad board or module on the blower motor giving false data. Try to get their head tech (if there's a choice :D ) next visit. An experienced 'ear' should be able to pinpoint the source of the noise.

[dash]

I will get Carrier involved starting Monday. I don't care if it costs me a few dollars, so long as it is fixed. I have a radius boot. And Dash, the cfm's is 450.
Thanks for your input and suggestions

Outside radius does very little ,Inside radius ,with an outside ,is good ,but the inside radius needs to be the width of the duct.

450 cfms is low fire/stage,have you run it on high??


Can't find that model EAC ,are you sure it's a Carrier?

[aspen1]

Dash
Cfm on high is 1074.."inside radius needs to be the width of the duct" That me be the answer. Cause the EAC is right up to the duct. They cut it back and peeled the metal to squeeze the eac in. The model # is correct, it has a Carrier tag on it and it is made in Canada.

Re wind tunnel and code 32's . That might be put to rest now. I now am up to 9 events, the last one at 8:45 this am and there was no wind this am. The flags were still.

I really think they do not have a qualified guy who can do the proper static pressure checks. The last time he was here I mentioned it to him and just kept wiggling the hoses. I think that is the main problem I am having. They know how to install but don't ask them to do the proper checks with gauges. Either they don't own any gauge or the installer does not know how to use it. I think it a one man company with one installer and one helper. Very small operation. One of the reasons I picked his company is he was the only Carrier dealer in our city who had a clean record at the BBB. That'll teach me to be checking.:D

I'm waiting for Carrier to phone me back. I'm hoping they can give me a name of a qualified person who can do a proper test on this unit.

[dash]

What static doe the control read when in high stage cfms?Does the noise change in high cfms?

[aspen1]

What static doe the control read when in high stage cfms?Does the noise change in high cfms?


Furnace just kicked in on high heat as was reading this post. Heat stage- high

[aspen1]

What static doe the control read when in high stage cfms?Does the noise change in high cfms?


Furnace just kicked in on high heat as was reading this post. Heat stage- high cfm - 982 static- .55
Is this the high stage you are referring to. Last time I just increased fan speed to high to get cfm of 1074

[dash]

Furnace just kicked in on high heat as was reading this post. Heat stage- high cfm - 982 static- .55
Is this the high stage you are referring to. Last time I just increased fan speed to high to get cfm of 1074

Yes ,thanks .How about the noise on high,same,louder???

[aspen1]

Yes ,thanks .How about the noise on high,same,louder???

Sorry, forgot to add that part. Sound is not noticeable when furnace on high speed. But I was standing beside the furnace when the speed slowed and I heard that hum as the furnace speed slowed to the next level. I don't know if that is because the noise is actually gone at high speed or if the noise of the furnace and air movement drowns out the noise.

[21degrees]

Can't find that model EAC ,are you sure it's a Carrier?

This is supplied by vendor for Carrier Canada. Made By Electro Air.



Wow, static pressure is good .55. Like to see pictures how they tied return onto EAC, sounds funny. I am thinking it is a venting isssue, Would be nice to see pictures on Install.

[aspen1]

This is supplied by vendor for Carrier Canada. Made By Electro Air.



Wow, static pressure is good .55. Like to see pictures how they tied return onto EAC, sounds funny. I am thinking it is a venting isssue, Would be nice to see pictures on Install.
Can't seem to post pictures. Uploaded them but where id they go??

[gasguy]

OK, if wind is eliminated as an issue, It has to be something to do with the venting or condensate drain system. Still need to find out if the combustion air disk, is installed.

With the noise issue, how does it start? Does it start suddenly once the blower gets up to speed, or does it 'ramp up' as the blower gains speed?

To post a pic you need to upload it to a hosting site like imageshack or photobucket, then copy the link into the thread. It should have IMG in square brackets [ ] before and after the pic info.

[aspen1]

OK, if wind is eliminated as an issue, It has to be something to do with the venting or condensate drain system. Still need to find out if the combustion air disk, is installed.

With the noise issue, how does it start? Does it start suddenly once the blower gets up to speed, or does it 'ramp up' as the blower gains speed?

To post a pic you need to upload it to a hosting site like imageshack or photobucket, then copy the link into the thread. It should have IMG in square brackets [ ] before and after the pic info.

I'll try the picture think another day, I'll have to register etc. Or I can email it. We have our fan on 24/7 so noise is always there. Interestingly, the noise does not get louder but quieter as the speed increases from low to med to high. As for the air disk being installed, I don't know when any installer will arrive. Is it easy to locate and could I find it or is that for the pro's only?

[aspen1]

This note to let you know that all has ended well. Out of the blue, yesterday, I get a call from the installer saying he wants to come over to fix our furnace. They showed up and replaced the blower motor and replaced some chip or something to fix the code 32 I was getting. The furnace is so quiet I have to keep checking to see if it is running. What a difference it makes. I am sure that the code 32 I was getting will no longer be a problem. I still can't believe how quiet this baby runs.

Thanks again for all who contributed to my posting.