Terrorism

[hvacker]

"Terrorism is the act of threatening or committing violence against living creatures...Sabotage is the dismantling of the tools of terrorism."

Edward Abbey

[mrs reb77]

Any personal comment? :confused:

[Remodeltdt01]

By that definition anyone that works in a chicken processing plant is a terrorist.

[hvacker]

By that definition anyone that works in a chicken processing plant is a terrorist.


Oh ya.

Really though, if you read Abbey's books I think you would conclude he was refering to people and reminding us that we are living creatures.
Abbey was in almost every way a rascal on one hand but also an enlightened pragmatist on the other.
If interested his book The Monkey Wrench Gang will explain his thinking about sabotage and it's relation to the Earth.

[hvacker]

Any personal comment? :confused:

The short answer is that William Ayers was a saboteur not a terrorist.

[mrs reb77]

My comment was pointing to the hit and run post. We could sit around posting quotes from others all day, that doesn't fit with the rules though unless you provide your personal commentary.

William Ayers threatened or committed acts of violence against living creatures, no? :rolleyes:

[Tool-Slinger]

The short answer is that William Ayers was a saboteur not a terrorist.
Dude, he[ayers] set off bombs in public buildings,.. That is terrorism, not sabotaging.

And that edward abbey guy sounds like a pointey-headed nut-job, based on the one quote you gave.. :D

[hvacker]

My comment was pointing to the hit and run post. We could sit around posting quotes from others all day, that doesn't fit with the rules though unless you provide your personal commentary.

William Ayers threatened or committed acts of violence against living creatures, no? :rolleyes:


No, in fact he did not. The Weather Underground he was involved in targeted empty buildings of corporations and government they felt were committing a criminal act in Vietnam.
I was living in Chicago during this time it's seems impossible to explain the mindset.
Revolution was in the air.
The rolleyes thing is stupid sophomoric. You'd do me a favor by just placing me on your ignore list.

[hvacker]

Dude, he[ayers] set off bombs in public buildings,.. That is terrorism, not sabotaging.

And that edward abbey guy sounds like a pointey-headed nut-job, based on the one quote you gave.. :D


I know it's hard to believe today if one hadn't lived there (Chicago) at the time but many of these people considered themselves patriots.
Many felt the corporate structure in America was involved in the wars escalation for profit like Haliburton is today.
The military was lying to the politicians and they were lying to the people. The frustration came from lies.
Sabotage differs from terrorism fundamentally. Sabotage attempts to engage an enemy directly not randomly kill people to drive fear in them.
In 1968-1972 there were many act of sabotage in this country but I can not remember anyone being afraid. Americans knew they were not the targets, the war machine was.
Ed Abbey makes a lot of since in his writings. He is a rascal and probably not tame-able. He died some time ago but his books are still in print.

[glennac]

I know it's hard to believe today if one hadn't lived there (Chicago) at the time but many of these people considered themselves patriots.
Many felt the corporate structure in America was involved in the wars escalation for profit like Haliburton is today.
The military was lying to the politicians and they were lying to the people. The frustration came from lies.
Sabotage differs from terrorism fundamentally. Sabotage attempts to engage an enemy directly not randomly kill people to drive fear in them.
In 1968-1972 there were many act of sabotage in this country but I can not remember anyone being afraid. Americans knew they were not the targets, the war machine was.
Ed Abbey makes a lot of since in his writings. He is a rascal and probably not tame-able. He died some time ago but his books are still in print.

Sounds to me like you are a supporter of terrorists and support the commies all the way. Must love them huh. That's who we were fighting in Nam but thanks to commie supporters in the Democratic Party and commie loving hippies we pulled out and let them slaughter the innocent. Over 2,000,000 were killed in Cambodia about 1/3 the population. It's nice to know that you support them.:eek:

[glennac]

No, in fact he did not. The Weather Underground he was involved in targeted empty buildings of corporations and government they felt were committing a criminal act in Vietnam.
I was living in Chicago during this time it's seems impossible to explain the mindset.
Revolution was in the air.
The rolleyes thing is stupid sophomoric. You'd do me a favor by just placing me on your ignore list.

How about explaining this. Greenwich Village explosion

Main article: Greenwich Village townhouse explosion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwich_Village_townhouse_explosion)
On March 6, 1970, during preparations for the bombing of an officers' dance at the Fort Dix (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Dix) U.S. Army base and for Butler Library at Columbia University,[26] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weatherman_(organization)#cite_note-djwnyt82403-25) there was an explosion in a Greenwich Village (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwich_Village) safe house (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe_house) when the nail bomb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nail_bomb) being constructed prematurely detonated due to a wiring malfunction. WUO members Diana Oughton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diana_Oughton), Ted Gold (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Gold), and Terry Robbins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Robbins) died in the explosion. Cathy Wilkerson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathy_Wilkerson) and Kathy Boudin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathy_Boudin) escaped unharmed, Boudin running naked from the apartment. It was an accident of history that the site of the Village explosion was the former residence of Merrill Lynch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merrill_Lynch) brokerage firm founder Charles Merrill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Merrill) and his son, the poet James Merrill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Merrill). The younger Merrill subsequently recorded the event in his poem 18 West 11th Street, the title being the address of the house. An FBI report later stated that the group had possessed sufficient amounts of explosive to "level ... both sides of the street".[27] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weatherman_(organization)#cite_note-26)
The bomb preparations have been pointed out by critics of the claim that the Weatherman group did not try to take lives with its bombings. Harvey Klehr, the Andrew W. Mellon professor of politics and history at Emory University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emory_University) in Atlanta, said in 2003, "The only reason they were not guilty of mass murder is mere incompetence. I don't know what sort of defense that is."[26] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weatherman_(organization)#cite_note-djwnyt82403-25)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weatherman_(organization)

The group was investigated for a bombing that took place on February 16, 1970, in which a pipe bomb filled with shrapnel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrapnel) detonated on the ledge of a window at the Park Station of the San Francisco Police Department. Brian V. McDonnell, a police sergeant, was fatally wounded in the explosion, and Robert Fogarty, another police officer, was severely wounded in his face and legs and was partially blinded[2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weatherman_(organization)#cite_note-21) and a San Francisco grand jury looked into the incident, but no indictments followed.

[Tool-Slinger]

I know it's hard to believe today if one hadn't lived there (Chicago) at the time but many of these people considered themselves patriots.
Many felt the corporate structure in America was involved in the wars escalation for profit like Haliburton is today.
The military was lying to the politicians and they were lying to the people. The frustration came from lies.
Sabotage differs from terrorism fundamentally. Sabotage attempts to engage an enemy directly not randomly kill people to drive fear in them.
In 1968-1972 there were many act of sabotage in this country but I can not remember anyone being afraid. Americans knew they were not the targets, the war machine was.
Ed Abbey makes a lot of since in his writings. He is a rascal and probably not tame-able. He died some time ago but his books are still in print.
Well, if you were to set off bombs in banks and public buildings and govornment buildings... I will agree that that is not the same category of crime as the loons who do mass killings for the sake of killing. But it is neither innocent sabatoge either. Let's face it, it is not like Ayers let the air out if a tire on an army-jeep. He was out to overthrow the govornment and underminded our national war effort. Seditious. I understand alot of folks hated that war, but bombing buildings is WAY over the top. Ayers was also a socialist movement, "capitalising" ironically, on an unpopular war effort. Terrorist.

[Tool-Slinger]

How about explaining this. Greenwich Village explosion

Main article: Greenwich Village townhouse explosion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwich_Village_townhouse_explosion)
On March 6, 1970, during preparations for the bombing of an officers' dance at the Fort Dix (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Dix) U.S. Army base and for Butler Library at Columbia University,[26] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weatherman_(organization)#cite_note-djwnyt82403-25) there was an explosion in a Greenwich Village (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwich_Village) safe house (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe_house) when the nail bomb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nail_bomb) being constructed prematurely detonated due to a wiring malfunction. WUO members Diana Oughton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diana_Oughton), Ted Gold (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Gold), and Terry Robbins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Robbins) died in the explosion. Cathy Wilkerson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathy_Wilkerson) and Kathy Boudin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathy_Boudin) escaped unharmed, Boudin running naked from the apartment. It was an accident of history that the site of the Village explosion was the former residence of Merrill Lynch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merrill_Lynch) brokerage firm founder Charles Merrill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Merrill) and his son, the poet James Merrill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Merrill). The younger Merrill subsequently recorded the event in his poem 18 West 11th Street, the title being the address of the house. An FBI report later stated that the group had possessed sufficient amounts of explosive to "level ... both sides of the street".[27] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weatherman_(organization)#cite_note-26)
The bomb preparations have been pointed out by critics of the claim that the Weatherman group did not try to take lives with its bombings. Harvey Klehr, the Andrew W. Mellon professor of politics and history at Emory University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emory_University) in Atlanta, said in 2003, "The only reason they were not guilty of mass murder is mere incompetence. I don't know what sort of defense that is."[26] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weatherman_(organization)#cite_note-djwnyt82403-25)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weatherman_(organization)

The group was investigated for a bombing that took place on February 16, 1970, in which a pipe bomb filled with shrapnel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrapnel) detonated on the ledge of a window at the Park Station of the San Francisco Police Department. Brian V. McDonnell, a police sergeant, was fatally wounded in the explosion, and Robert Fogarty, another police officer, was severely wounded in his face and legs and was partially blinded[2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weatherman_(organization)#cite_note-21) and a San Francisco grand jury looked into the incident, but no indictments followed.
Bingo, superman. They were assembling ''nail-bomb[s]''. That does not target infrastructure but personnell. Murderers.

[glennac]

Well, if you were to set off bombs in banks and public buildings and govornment buildings... I will agree that that is not the same category of crime as the loons who do mass killings for the sake of killing. But it is neither innocent sabatoge either. Let's face it, it is not like Ayers let the air out if a tire on an army-jeep. He was out to overthrow the govornment and underminded our national war effort. Seditious. I understand alot of folks hated that war, but bombing buildings is WAY over the top. Ayers was also a socialist movement, "capitalising" ironically, on an unpopular war effort. Terrorist.

Perhaps you didn't read my posts above. They were not "non violent" at all. They started out small but built up. The last bomb which exploded prematurely and killed several of them was a nail bomb designed to kill as many Army officers at a party as they could but it wiped them out instead. The bomb in S. F wasn't set in an empty building either it killed one officer and severely injured another for life.

Eric Rudolf is serving life for less than that and he is roundly considered a terrorist by all and is not worshiped like the terrorist weathermen are apparently by some on this forum.

[Tool-Slinger]

Perhaps you didn't read my posts above. They were not "non violent" at all. They started out small but built up. The last bomb which exploded prematurely and killed several of them was a nail bomb designed to kill as many Army officers at a party as they could but it wiped them out instead. The bomb in S. F wasn't set in an empty building either it killed one officer and severely injured another for life.

Eric Rudolf is serving life for less than that and he is roundly considered a terrorist by all and is not worshiped like the terrorist weathermen are apparently by some on this forum.
Got it superman, 100%. I am a slow typer/replier but I agree with you 100%.

[hvacker]

Sounds to me like you are a supporter of terrorists and support the commies all the way. Must love them huh. That's who we were fighting in Nam but thanks to commie supporters in the Democratic Party and commie loving hippies we pulled out and let them slaughter the innocent. Over 2,000,000 were killed in Cambodia about 1/3 the population. It's nice to know that you support them.:eek:

There was nothing in my post indicating my support of anything like the Weathermen. I was only showing how the frustration led some people to consider their acts patriotic. There were many groups. Some much more violent than the Weathermen.
At the Chicago trial of the Chicago 8. ( 8 became 7 when Bobby Seal refused to be tried with the others) on the charge of conspiracy it was kind of a joke as these 7 people couldn't agree on anything let along conspire to do anything. The same disagreements existed within groups.

The Weathermen were investigated in the San Francisco bombing but not indited. I'm sure other groups were also.

Vietnam had less to do with communism than a revolt against colonialism and land reform. Most of the people couldn't begin to even understand dialectic materialism let alone fight for it.

A little reality check here. Nixon was president when we pulled out of Vietnam. A republican right. Head of the military, right. Politicians got us into the mess and a large majority of Americans wanted us out. We weren't allowed to win a war, we were just allowed to stand there and bleed. People were angry that their kids were put through this war that amounted to political ego trips.
Nobody cared what the Hippies wanted I guaranty and with Congress it was across the board. Their constituents wanted out. It was the American people that wanted the war to end.
I remember it well.

[glennac]

There was nothing in my post indicating my support of anything like the Weathermen. I was only showing how the frustration led some people to consider their acts patriotic. There were many groups. Some much more violent than the Weathermen.
At the Chicago trial of the Chicago 8. ( 8 became 7 when Bobby Seal refused to be tried with the others) on the charge of conspiracy it was kind of a joke as these 7 people couldn't agree on anything let along conspire to do anything. The same disagreements existed within groups.

The Weathermen were investigated in the San Francisco bombing but not indited. I'm sure other groups were also.

Vietnam had less to do with communism than a revolt against colonialism and land reform. Most of the people couldn't begin to even understand dialectic materialism let alone fight for it.

A little reality check here. Nixon was president when we pulled out of Vietnam. A republican right. Head of the military, right. Politicians got us into the mess and a large majority of Americans wanted us out. We weren't allowed to win a war, we were just allowed to stand there and bleed. People were angry that their kids were put through this war that amounted to political ego trips.
Nobody cared what the Hippies wanted I guaranty and with Congress it was across the board. Their constituents wanted out. It was the American people that wanted the war to end.
I remember it well.

Let's cut through the spin and BS. If you lived back then and read and observed you would have known that Nixon wanted to win the war but LBJ had wasted the chance to win it by playing games with our lives and not really hurting the commies at home in N. Vietnam.

Nixon tried but the commie loving Democratic Congress first restricted what he could do then cut off the US bombing of NV and then cut off all our support for the S Vietnamese and then cut off all aid to S. Vietnam while Red China and the whole Warsaw Pack flooded arms and munition to N.V. so they could win.

It was a commie attack by the N Vietnamese and it was not a "popular revolution" as the communists, our commie press and you like to say. Just like it was in Laos and Cambodia. Anyhow millions died after the war ended thanks to our retreat because of the Democrats. Most Americans approved of the war at first but got pissed because all LBJ wanted to do was use us as cannon fodder to make N V to sign a peace treaty. Actually the majority always wanted us to win but the Democrats sabotaged that so we withdrew is a very sad fashion. Did you burn the flag and your draft card like a lot of the hippies did and call us baby killers when we came home? I'll bet so.

[hvacker]

thanks to our retreat because of the Democrats. Most Americans approved of the war at first but got pissed because all LBJ wanted to do was use us as cannon fodder to make N V to sign a peace treaty. Did you burn the flag and your draft card like a lot of the hippies did and call us baby killers when we came home? I'll bet so.

You'd be wrong. You can't burn a draft card because when I enlisted they took it from me and gave me a nice one wrapped in plastic.

What you said about LBJ wasen't much different from what I said. Politicians on an ego trip.

And no called me anything when I came home. I doubt antone even noticed.

[glennac]

You'd be wrong. You can't burn a draft card because when I enlisted they took it from me and gave me a nice one wrapped in plastic.

What you said about LBJ wasen't much different from what I said. Politicians on an ego trip.

And no called me anything when I came home. I doubt antone even noticed.

If that is indeed the case then I'm wrong about you as far as serving an all. But you got my goat defending the weathermen and saying that was a popular uprising by the people of S Vietnam. Sure they had some Viet Cong but over a million fled N. Vietnam in 56 and were anti communists refuges. Most Vietnamese didn't want the N. Vietnamese or the Viet Cong.

I don't care to write a book on the subject but trust me the majority never wanted to live in a commie ran country and nobody ever has either rather it be Russia, Red China, Cambodia, N. Korea or Cuba. That's why they never have free elections.

[hvacker]

If that is indeed the case then I'm wrong about you as far as serving an all. But you got my goat defending the weathermen and saying that was a popular uprising by the people of S Vietnam. Sure they had some Viet Cong but over a million fled N. Vietnam in 56 and were anti communists refuges. Most Vietnamese didn't want the N. Vietnamese or the Viet Cong.

I don't care to write a book on the subject but trust me the majority never wanted to live in a commie ran country and nobody ever has either rather it be Russia, Red China, Cambodia, N. Korea or Cuba. That's why they never have free elections.

I wasn't defending the Weathermen. I was trying to explain in my view the difference between terrorism and a saboteur. I also remember groups that were terrorist groups. The Simbiaese Liberation Army. Nothing but bank robbers disguised as solders.
I see terrorists as the lowest form of fanatic. A saboteur is not fighting the people.
I have gotten the impression on ARP that if things got a little cockeyed in the USA they might consider some kind of reaction, maybe even military. Would they be terrorists or saboteurs or revolutionaries.
I know who did want the war in S Vietnam. It was the people that benefited from French colonialism.
I remember in 1964, Madam Nu (sp) was in the states trying to drum up support for the war. While here her husband, the Premiere, was killed. Madam Nu didn't go back to Nam. She instead went to Paris and bought the 2nd largest bank there for cash.
Because of the third world status of much of Nam most people probably didn't want any war. They could go on living just fine as they always have. Politicians want wars and then they drum up support for it anyway they can. Iraq is an example. Most Americans didn't want a war ether but were told we needed one.
Numbers I remember about the VC was that about 75% of the enemy in the south was VC. Many people I knew were surprised because what the Generals and politicians were saying it was mostly North Vietnam regulars. In other words selling the idea that the south was being invaded from the north and the south needed help.
Like you said no time to write a book.

[glennac]

..............................
Numbers I remember about the VC was that about 75% of the enemy in the south was VC. Many people I knew were surprised because what the Generals and politicians were saying it was mostly North Vietnam regulars. In other words selling the idea that the south was being invaded from the north and the south needed help.
Like you said no time to write a book.

Well after Tet 68 there weren't any VC combat units left to count for much. I was over there all of 69 till Sept 70. We only encountered one VC unit in a fire fight. All the rest were NVA. I doubt that even prior to Tet they ever had that many troops in Nam compared to the NVA. Maybe early on in 65 they carried as much as 50%. The North had sent thousands of troops to the South before we ever sent the Army in. The SF were fighting the NVA prior to 65. You must have listened to a remf (rear echelon MF) who fed you a line. Got to go like I said I could write a book without BS or spin. You will never hear that from me only the truth and nothing but the truth. I don't need to spin or fabrication. The truth speaks fine for me.

[hvacker]

I agree. I was speaking early on. After Goldwater said in his run for the Presidency that he would take tactical nukes to North Vietnam and the war would be over in 2 weeks Ho was probably a little nervous about making a presence in the south.
Probably when he was sure that threat was gone he went ahead.
Thinking back I knew a guy that was in the south in 58 as an advisor under Ike. This thing went on and on.