Energy analysis software?

[kevin stone]

Hi all
I am wondering what everybody is using for software to model buildings for
energy savings thru equipment and controls upgrades.
We have been subcontracting out most of the engineering for the rebate process and would like to do more of it in house.
We currently are using Trace from Trane and System analyzer from Trane and we have no love for either
Thanks in advance
Kevin

[Chris_Worthington]

TRIDIUM :rolleyes:

Most everything you would need to know could be done through this platform and "if" your looking for a bigger picture the Vykon Energy Suite would more then accommodate your needs...

[kevin stone]

TRIDIUM :rolleyes:

Most everything you would need to know could be done through this platform and "if" your looking for a bigger picture the Vykon Energy Suite would more then accommodate your needs...

Hi Chris sorry I wasn't clear.
We are looking for a program to help with a prebuy evaluation to estimate savings that a system may bring to the facility and to help the owner qualify for rebates
Thanks
Kevin

[sysint]

Well - if you investigate the others out there you will have new appreciation for Tranes Trace.

[digo]

engineering for the rebate process
Kevin

I haven't used these, but they are used in the assessment process and are freely available from Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory's website:
https://gaia.lbl.gov/people/pxu/public/DRQAT/index.htm

[jdd67]

The Department of Energy has released its most recent upgrade to EQuest. This is a "free" tool with fairly good wizards for assembling mechanical systems and assigning loads. There are a few chunky manuals and some forums that will help you also. I have found the databases to contain the majority of typical construction types of walls, windows and roofs, but you can always create your own and assign R and U values.

On the down side, it is nearly impossible to port your own weather data into the system, but the weather database is fairly substantial. I put quotes around "free" because it comes with a soft cost, vey little technical support.

http://www.doe2.com/equest/

[kevin stone]

The Department of Energy has released its most recent upgrade to EQuest. This is a "free" tool with fairly good wizards for assembling mechanical systems and assigning loads. There are a few chunky manuals and some forums that will help you also. I have found the databases to contain the majority of typical construction types of walls, windows and roofs, but you can always create your own and assign R and U values.

On the down side, it is nearly impossible to port your own weather data into the system, but the weather database is fairly substantial. I put quotes around "free" because it comes with a soft cost, vey little technical support.

http://www.doe2.com/equest/

I am downloading it now, are you talking about version 3.6? it is dated 3/9/07
is this the "new" version?????
thanks
Kevin

[s2k008]

TRIDIUM :rolleyes:

Most everything you would need to know could be done through this platform and "if" your looking for a bigger picture the Vykon Energy Suite would more then accommodate your needs...

Chris,

What are you using through the Tridium platform for energy analysis?
Does this require any hardware like kw meters?
I'll research Vykon.

[x-wrenchturner]

Trane's "Trace 700" modeling software is practically an industry standard.

It is recognized by the DOE and the IRS among many others, and has a proven track record.

It isn't the most user friendly tool right out of the box, but given the complexity of it's nature this should be expected.

Trane's "Energy Analyzer" software is a severely watered down version that is a lot more user friendly, but with ease of use comes reduced functionality.


.02

[jdd67]

I believe 3.6 to be the correct version, but I will check when I get to the office.

[Chris_Worthington]

Chris,

What are you using through the Tridium platform for energy analysis?
Does this require any hardware like kw meters?
I'll research Vykon.

KW meters, BTU Meters, some of the built in energy blocks in Kit Control, math blocks, etc.

Real time energy usage and comparison energy usage to a previous time.

We have also started playing around with "Enforma" to know when something is beginning fail to increase energy usage i.e. a heating valve sticking open a little and a cooling valve having to open up further to meet the same setpoints, etc, etc. So far it seems to work well...

[ToeMoss]

Recently, a speaker at an ASHRAE meeting who's very involved in energy modeling said she feels "EnergyGauge Summit Premier" to be the best on the market at this time.
I haven't used it myself yet, but I have used other software by the same developer and can't say that I like it.
I'll report back once I've had an opportunity to try the "Premier" version, I sure hope it's good.

[GONFISHN]

[QUOTE=Chris_Worthingt;2005969]TRIDIUM :rolleyes:
QUOTE]

This is Chris' answer for everything, and while I was looking through the controls commitee thread the other day I see that he has been in the controls industry for 5 years. Guess that would explain why;)

[freddy-b]

[QUOTE=Chris_Worthingt;2005969]TRIDIUM :rolleyes:
QUOTE]

This is Chris' answer for everything, and while I was looking through the controls commitee thread the other day I see that he has been in the controls industry for 5 years. Guess that would explain why;)

So whats your point? Is it because he/we are not into locking people up with the old school ....... good ole boy mentality?

[NINAX]

[QUOTE=Chris_Worthingt;2005969]TRIDIUM :rolleyes:
QUOTE]

This is Chris' answer for everything, and while I was looking through the controls commitee thread the other day I see that he has been in the controls industry for 5 years. Guess that would explain why;)

How about, if you aren't going to contribute something specific to the OP's question, quit trying to hijack this thread and insulting others.

[digo]

[QUOTE=Chris_Worthingt;2005969]TRIDIUM :rolleyes:
QUOTE]

This is Chris' answer for everything, and while I was looking through the controls commitee thread the other day I see that he has been in the controls industry for 5 years. Guess that would explain why;)

What's your suggestion? Delta? How about something a little more constructive?
Had you paid any attention to the thread, you might have noticed the additional 22 years of experience in HVAC, with the last 5 exclusively in Controls.

[kevin stone]

What no other suggestions?
From a group who cant agree on which protocol is best (mine is Modbus :))?
All experience levels accepted!

[Chris_Worthington]

The Last 5 have been "exclusively" nothing but, The 17 before that I worked for Commercial mechanical contractors primarily in a supervisor type roll. I see this as an advantage the majority of time as I know how to bring the building and the people in together with both the mechanical knowledge and the prior "part time/full time" control work mixed in.

I am partial to Tridium for obvious reasons, as a lot of the folks that have done nothing but Exclusive controls for an equal amount of time. This is hardly my first (Tridium) but so far it has been the most versatile, what should I go back to working with Rover or something??? LOL, not happening....


What no other suggestions?
From a group who cant agree on which protocol is best (mine is Modbus )?
All experience levels accepted!

I like Modbus :D its simple, but IMHO kind of a PITA addressing and generally the information accompanying whatever device is limited and difficult to obtain.....

Time to get back to the OP, eh?

Chris

[GONFISHN]

Didn't take much to get you boys rialed up. Wooo. He wants to give his answer( Tridium:rolleyes: )to a question that had nothing to do with front end devices or any protocol for that manner. But like I said Tridium is always his solution. And no I don't strictly deal with Delta, but I do like their controls products. All the trash talking y'all do about Baccrap and I make one little comment about Tridium and all the "Tridium" guys start getting defensive. If you don't think he answers everything with Tridium then do a search of his past posts. Childish:p

[NINAX]

Didn't take much to get you boys rialed up. Wooo. He wants to give his answer( Tridium:rolleyes: )to a question that had nothing to do with front end devices or any protocol for that manner. But like I said Tridium is always his solution. And no I don't strictly deal with Delta, but I do like their controls products. All the trash talking y'all do about Baccrap and I make one little comment about Tridium and all the "Tridium" guys start getting defensive. If you don't think he answers everything with Tridium then do a search of his past posts. Childish:p

I don't think anyone was excited because of Tridium. Just a few responding to a heckler that decided to throw out an unprovoked insult and some crying about posts he doesn't like. Or is it that you're too damn stupid to understand?

Hopefully the Triad will take some action against you for your posts here, especially since you cry about this type of activity.

[Ausccn]

Well if my input is of any use...I started back in 85 using the good old American Automatrix system (AAM), then sold under the Carrier/UTC banner as UT7000. I didn't know any different but any system that U could dial up with a PC and change things was pretty good to me!.

I then moved over to Carrier CCN which was a lot more easier than AAM but missed a lot of the full on BMS stuff.

Now its ALC (just to keep it in the family)...

Its all about supposible Open protocols, so everyone says.!!

Is Tridium the answer?????? (Honeywell Hopes So)

Well thats upto the end user. Does it answer their questions and supply them with a system that they are happy with and provides all of the reporting and user functionality that they should have from a 2008 system!!!!!???

P.S. Casey Stoner just wipped their buts last weekend (including Valentino) , I hope for the US's sake that Collin Edwards or Nicky Haden can pull their socks up for you folks over in the US.......

It still gets down to who supplies the best service with a system that can adapt to the ever increasing protocols out there.

I agree Chris that Modbus is simple but there are also a lot of flavours of Modbus that not every company can easily adapt too.

LON has its good points but not every manufacturer stands by the standard and uses their own flavour.

BACnet has its limitations aswell.

The customer is still the bottom line and all companies that provide the systems should not forget that.....

My 2 cents worth!!!!!!!!

Aus..:D

[NINAX]

Didn't take much to get you boys rialed up. Wooo. He wants to give his answer( Tridium:rolleyes: )to a question that had nothing to do with front end devices or any protocol for that manner. But like I said Tridium is always his solution. And no I don't strictly deal with Delta, but I do like their controls products. All the trash talking y'all do about Baccrap and I make one little comment about Tridium and all the "Tridium" guys start getting defensive. If you don't think he answers everything with Tridium then do a search of his past posts. Childish:p

If you have the guts to start a thread to debate what solutions & advantages that your BACcrap can bring vs. what Tridium can, bring it on little one.

[Ausccn]

If you have the guts to start a thread to debate what solutions & advantages that your BACcrap can bring vs. what Tridium can, bring it on little one.

I didn't think that I was starting a debate about anything, Big deal if its BACcrap as U say... who gives a sh$t!!!!!. Tell everyone a little bit more about youself. You started on LON and your still there.....its definatly not the answer to everyting that you think it is.

A system is made up of more than LON devices and Tridium, thats called competition....if all cars were the same then the world would be a boring place, why dont you pull your head out of your butt and see whats reallly around...:cool:

At least you didn't get on the committee...it would have been a bit one sided...!!!!!

[NINAX]

I didn't think that I was starting a debate about anything, Big deal if its BACcrap as U say... who gives a sh$t!!!!!. Tell everyone a little bit more about youself. You started on LON and your still there.....its definatly not the answer to everyting that you think it is.

A system is made up of more that LON devices and Tridium, thats called competition....if all cars were the same then the world would be a boring place, why dont you pull your head out of your butt and see whats reallly around...:cool:

Hold on there Aus, I quoted GONEFISHN, not you.

I liked your first post, it was very level headed. Not so much with the second one though.

[Ausccn]

Hold on there Aus, I quoted GONEFISHN, not you.

I liked your first post, it was very level headed. Not so much with the second one though.

Sorry man, just on the defensive!!!!!:D

I take back the Committee thing.........Sorry missed the Gonefishn thing.....Had a few of the good Jim Beam things etc..

[NINAX]

Sorry man, just on the defensive!!!!!:D

I take back the Committee thing.........

We cool.

[freddy-b]

All the trash talking y'all do about Baccrap and I make one little comment about Tridium and all the "Tridium" guys start getting defensive.

This is funny stuff. Defensive ...????? Sure thing pal...
:D

[Ausccn]

We cool.

Cool. it must be early over there?????

[Ausccn]

This is funny stuff. Defensive ...????? Sure thing pal...
:D

Hey Freddy B....hows it feel being on the Committee now.....Its been a while, I still respect what U say...sorry having a few on a Tuesday night.........:p

[bradgreen80]

I have been doing energy savings estimation for about 3 years now and have used Trace, Carrier HAP, eQuest, MarketManager, and others. It all depends what the task is at hand on which one really fits best. Kinda like a toolbox of tools, you need the same to accurately estimate building performance. For my work, it is MarketManager that makes the most sense. Mainly, becasue the simulation tool can compare the same building with individual ECMs. The thing about the other software(s) is that they look at the ECM and not the building dynamic. You need to be aware that by reducing cycle time on fan, decreases the savings of DCV and reduction of outside air. eQuest (DOE2) is a good tool and free, so for quick analysis and lack of building data I use that one, but for complex systems and built-up systems there is nothing better than MarketManager.

[beer30]

Thanks bradgreen for a quality post that related to the topic at hand.

[justmike7]

I have been doing energy savings estimation for about 3 years now and have used Trace, Carrier HAP, eQuest, MarketManager, and others. It all depends what the task is at hand on which one really fits best. Kinda like a toolbox of tools, you need the same to accurately estimate building performance. For my work, it is MarketManager that makes the most sense. Mainly, becasue the simulation tool can compare the same building with individual ECMs. The thing about the other software(s) is that they look at the ECM and not the building dynamic. You need to be aware that by reducing cycle time on fan, decreases the savings of DCV and reduction of outside air. eQuest (DOE2) is a good tool and free, so for quick analysis and lack of building data I use that one, but for complex systems and built-up systems there is nothing better than MarketManager.

Nice response. Have you used programs that incorporate VRV solutions into the equation when comparing design alternatives. I assume that HAP (for example) would not since Carrier does not offer this solution.

[kevin stone]

So are we done with the software discussion here?
Another thread gone to crap :mad:

[digo]

So are we done with the software discussion here?
Another thread gone to crap :mad:

The way I see it, aside from the off topic posts, you got yourself a nice list as a starting point...

Tridium Vykon Energy Suite
LBNL's DRQAT
DOE's Equest
Tracer 700
EnergyGauge Summit Premier
Trace
Carrier HAP
MarketManager

[kevin stone]

Sorry I got my posts jumbled up
Thanks for your insite Brad
I will start digging thru the Doe first
Kevin

[CerealKiller]

I found this thread in a search for a user-friendly solution. I downloaded EnergyPlus, but have been completely overwhelmed by its capabilities and manuals with thousands of pages.....

[GregF]

The Last 5 have been "exclusively" nothing but, The 17 before that I worked for Commercial mechanical contractors primarily in a supervisor type roll. I see this as an advantage the majority of time as I know how to bring the building and the people in together with both the mechanical knowledge and the prior "part time/full time" control work mixed in.

I am partial to Tridium for obvious reasons, as a lot of the folks that have done nothing but Exclusive controls for an equal amount of time. This is hardly my first (Tridium) but so far it has been the most versatile, what should I go back to working with Rover or something??? LOL, not happening....




I like Modbus :D its simple, but IMHO kind of a PITA addressing and generally the information accompanying whatever device is limited and difficult to obtain.....

Time to get back to the OP, eh?

Chris


So what I think your saying is it only took you 5 years or less to figure out Tridium is where its at. I'd say you are a very smart guy.

Greg