Cold weather air source heat pumps

[vandalay714]

I remember last spring reading somewhere that Mitsubishi (I believe) was developing a cold weather heat pump. Anyone know any details regarding other companies using this technology? Thanks.

[Gunnery Sergeant Hartman]

They are all for use in cold weather.

What type of application are you looking for? Do yu live in Antarctica or something?

[vandalay714]

They are all for use in cold weather.

What type of application are you looking for? Do yu live in Antarctica or something?
I was under the impression that heat pumps do not work efficiently below 30-40 degrees F. That is why they are not used for the most part above the mason-dixon line. However, Hallowell's Acadia system does work super efficiently below freezing temperatures.

I live in upstate NY not antarctica.

[flange]

I actually thought is was a good reply. There are many heatpumps that do well in "cold weather". The typical heatpump starts to lose capacity as the temps drop, but still work to a certain point. The reason for strip heat is to overcome that point where the heatpump can no longer keep up with the structures' heat loss, and to temper discharge air during defrost. Most of the minisplits do very well at low ambient with the inverter technology. Take a look at Daikin for example, They rate down to plus five I beleive.

[m kilgore]

Some of the minisplit manufactures do make what they call cold weather heat pumps which are effcient to lower temps than normal heat pumps.

I am not sure off of the top of my head how low they can go but 0-5° seems to be what I heard. They are pretty pricey.

[mchild]

Mitsu does make a high heat output unit called the H2i in a 3 ton capacity. It is an inverter unit that has 100% of its rated heat output available down to 5* and 87% down to -4*.

It only has two different indoor units that it can have mated to it, and only two can be connected to one outdoor unit.

Here is the Mitus brochure: http://www.mehvac.com/UploadedFiles/Resource/H2i_brochure.pdf See page six for the 3ton unit.

Each of the Japanese manufactures (Sanyo, Daikin, Mitsu) have VRV/VRF systems that have very high heat output at their rated low temps. As an example the Daikin 4 ton unit is rated at 54,000 BTU heat output at 47* and with indoor units (four in this case) matched at 130% of the outdoor unit rated capacity it will produce 48,000 at 10* (my design temp). The system is rated to operate as low as 4*, but I hear they are run at lower temps without issues.

[beenthere]

I was under the impression that heat pumps do not work efficiently below 30-40 degrees F. That is why they are not used for the most part above the mason-dixon line. .

Then you are under the wromg impression.

I'm pretty sure we're above the mason-dixon line in PA.

And heat pumps are used as much as any other type of heat sourse.

Many of which have balance points between 20 and 25°F before they need aux heat to assist with heating the home.

And still provide heat down to -10°F that cost less the just the strip heaters alone.

Many of the mini split systems with inverters stop working at 14°F. Some, go as low as 0°F(they're consider to be low ambient).

[1hotwire]

Mitsubishi came out with two new mini split units that maintain their output at 17°.
Here is a link to a press release.
NEW MR. SLIM® HEAT PUMP SYSTEMS (http://www.mrslim.com/pressRoom/pressPopup.asp?PressReleaseID=89)

Hope this helps.

[vandalay714]

Thanks for all the input guys! I have alot to research now. Thanks again.

[gary_g]

Many of which have balance points between 20 and 25°F before they need aux heat to assist with heating the home.


This describes my situation perfectly in Baltimore, Maryland.

Are you testing my heat pump in the winter when I'm not home? :)

Take care.

[Jopopsy]

Then you are under the wromg impression.

I'm pretty sure we're above the mason-dixon line in PA.

And heat pumps are used as much as any other type of heat sourse.

Many of which have balance points between 20 and 25°F before they need aux heat to assist with heating the home.

And still provide heat down to -10°F that cost less the just the strip heaters alone.

Many of the mini split systems with inverters stop working at 14°F. Some, go as low as 0°F(they're consider to be low ambient).

Hey Beenthere, just out of interest what is your lockout temp? My guy did not do a analysis to get the balance point for my house. We set the lockout temp to 35 in the interest of avoiding the defrost cycle of my HP as much as possible. If I can put out enough heat at 30 and not defrost constantly, I'd move it down. Any thoughts?

[beenthere]

I like to set the HP lock out at 20, and the furnace at 35. That gives a 15° overlap that both can be used(IAQ stat), and allows the home to take advantage of solar gain during the daytime.

Not knowing the full performance of your HP, or the actual heatloss, I'd try 30°F, and see how that works.

[beenthere]

This describes my situation perfectly in Baltimore, Maryland.

Are you testing my heat pump in the winter when I'm not home? :)

Take care.
I pinged your stat and got its IP. :)

[mchild]

I pinged your stat and got its IP. :)

And you saw his bride starting to change the settings. It is all down hill from here.

[beenthere]

And you saw his bride starting to change the settings. It is all down hill from here.
LOL :)

[SteelCitySteve]

I too was considering the Hallowell heat pump. I seriously question the performance figures of this heat pump since it is not ARI tested though. If you read the footnotes on their specs, the performance numbers also do not include the use of the auxiliary heat strips.

I am just a homeowner like you, but I think this heat pump might basically be a carrier heat pump that has some modifications to it. I guess you would just have to prove to me that this thing really works better than a standard heat pump if I am going to shell out $10 grand or more for it. I'm just not buying their numbers since they did not have it tested by the ARI. You can decide for yourself though.

http://www.gotohallowell.com/assets/Acadia_ETL_FahrenheitLR.pdf

[beenthere]

I am just a homeowner like you, but I think this heat pump might basically be a carrier heat pump that has some modifications to it. I

If it was. Then they would probably use a Carrier air handler, instead of a York air handler.

[SteelCitySteve]

Not sure where you are coming from, Beenthere? Are you saying that Hallowell used a York air handler in its testing? Do you know about Hallowell's equipment? If so, can you give us more information on it? What is the scoop on the Hallowell anyway? Is it really built by Hallowell or just mostly made from standard parts anyone could purchase with some sort of a twist on it and does it really work? Thanks for any information you may be able to provide on this unit.

[beenthere]

Don't know a lot about it. But they use a York VS air handler.
It uses the same basic technology as the Nyle heat pump did.
There was a law suit between Hallowell and Nyle.

It uses a Bristol TS compressor as the primary, and a single stage Bristol as the booster.
Same compressor York use to use in their stealth line. And Carrier still uses it in their 16 SEER Infinty line.

I have no doubt that it performs very close to what they post it does.

With its cost. I doubt it will catch on for most climate areas. Unless electric rates start to double.

[doogan123]

I too was considering the Hallowell heat pump. I seriously question the performance figures of this heat pump since it is not ARI tested though. If you read the footnotes on their specs, the performance numbers also do not include the use of the auxiliary heat strips.

I am just a homeowner like you, but I think this heat pump might basically be a carrier heat pump that has some modifications to it. I guess you would just have to prove to me that this thing really works better than a standard heat pump if I am going to shell out $10 grand or more for it. I'm just not buying their numbers since they did not have it tested by the ARI. You can decide for yourself though.

http://www.gotohallowell.com/assets/Acadia_ETL_FahrenheitLR.pdf


From research I have done - David Shaw was a carrier engineer.. developed the cold climate concept... licenced it to nyle.. In 2004 - 2005.. they broke-up.. and duane hallowell.. who worked for Nyle, acquired the rights from Shaw.... so.. I am not sure what it looks like.. but I am sure there is carrier influence in there some where, along with nyle and hallowell being the same product.. or at least same technology. I am sure hallowell is much more advanced. As i said before. ... if they were out there for a few more years, I would be going with one...

[SteelCitySteve]

Thanks for the information, Beenthere and Doogan123. I guess I just have too many concerns with Hallowell. First, is Hallowell just some small outfit that has a few employees that could be out of business in a few years? If so, how will I get parts and service for my unit? And if Hallowell truly has a better product than the major players like Trane and Carrier, why has no one else used, bought, or copied this technology? I do have two Hallowell dealers within 40 miles of my house that could install a Hallowell, but I guess my main concern is whether this product really works better than a standard heat pump and will I be able to get the unit serviced in five or ten years if Hallowell doesn't make it? I actually called Hallowell and I truly get the impression that this is a small outfit that is just using mostly standard heat pump parts (Carrier or York?) and adding some sort of twist to their product. Does anyone know the details about Hallowell and whether its heat pump really works better than a standard heat pump? I still have my doubts.

[beenthere]

Hallowell could go out of business tomorrow.
Or may be the biggest heat pump manufacturer in 10 more years.


The design of the outdoor unit is nothing like any standard air to air heat pump.

Why aren't any of the other manufacturers using the design?
Maybe they are waiting to see how it proves out in reliability.
Maybe, they don't feel there is enough demand for this type of system. That they can make enough money to justify interupting a production line for a small run.

They are plenty of regular air to air heat pumps. If you don't feel comfortable about the Hallowell, get ne of them.

[beachtech]

i don't see how that acadia makes that much a difference

it says same install price as HP with gas back up.

in that case i would install a HP with gas back up :)

[beenthere]

If you look at its BTU output at low temps. It does have a good BTU rating.
So, on some houses, it will save a lot on heating.

I think same install price as a heat pump with gas back up.
Is comparing it to a mod gas furnace back up. :)

[beachtech]

so that mod gas raises the price a bit...

so using 2 compressors is using less energy than a 1.0:1 electric heat.

i gotta see one in real life!! it just doesn't add up, reading about it on thier site as we talk.

using one compressor to heat the gas and pumping it into another to raise the temp higher :confused: lowering SC even more than evap coil :confused: lol seems to defy everything that isn't supposed to be...

heat of compression is what gives us most of our heat in the winter, right? ;)

[beachtech]

demand defrost would make a huge difference :)

if it could be utilized on all brands :)

[beenthere]

heat of compression is what gives us most of our heat in the winter, right? ;)



At low temps, 50% or so.

[beenthere]

demand defrost would make a huge difference :)

if it could be utilized on all brands :)
It can be.
Just some don't want to go to the extra expense.

[beachtech]

these days there seems to be no expense at going green :)

if it were up to me, demand defrost would have been mandated with 13seer :D

[beenthere]

They'd have to raise the price of the unit then. The builders would go broke. :)

[beachtech]

i really don't see a significant cost difference in the DD board and the 30/60/90 boards :) now, the sensor's on the other hand may be a little different story. but they almost never fail :)

with 30/60/90 boards its bad practice to not change the coil sensor with board replacement (in my area) :)

[gary_g]

And you saw his bride starting to change the settings. It is all down hill from here.

Please notify me ASAP if this happens. Unauthorized use of the thermostat by the wife-stoppo is punishable by fines and/or imprisonment. :)

[tim koel]

I remember last spring reading somewhere that Mitsubishi (I believe) was developing a cold weather heat pump. Anyone know any details regarding other companies using this technology? Thanks.

Mitsu Company has a system that utilizes what they call hyper Heat technology. Maintains full capacity down to I believe +5 degrees, Wow!!. All the name brand systems are lucky to provide adequite heating at 30* outdoor temp. They rate their systems at 47*/17* so what ,what good is that!! At 17* usaully there's a loss of half the btu's. Tell me what the rating @ ZERO degrees is and tell you what junk you have!! Any one with a gas or oil furnace would'nt trade it for nothing.. if only they could affo:confused:rd to run them. Even the new name brand heat pumps are junk when it comes to needing real heat at 15-20 degrees.