Why should we bail out these lending institutions?

[chaard]

It seems to me that all the Gov. is doing is floating a check. They say if we don't bail out these institutions the economy will collapse.
I say let them go under. I'll still have a job a house and a car and a place to buy groceries. The world won't stop turning. It seems to me we need to scrap everything and start over instead of creating these bandaid bailouts that only hurt our Dollar more. JMO

[glennac]

It seems to me that all the Gov. is doing is floating a check. If we don't bail out these institutions the ecomy will collapse.

I say let them go under. I'll still have a job a house and a car and a place to buy groceries. The world won't stop turning. It seems to me we need to scrap everything and start over instead of creating these bandaid bailouts that only hurt our Dollar more. JMO

I agree.

[21degrees]

This is a big game to them and they are linning their pockets. George Bush is right in their with them. So NO F*&%ing Way. What about all the people that lost their house or job, where was BS bush when that happened or lost their house too hurricain or flood. He is a crook and I hope the states can see it. I do like John Macean on the other hand and you can tell he can't stand George BS Bush.;)

[tunnel_rat]

This is a big game to them and they are linning their pockets. George Bush is right in their with them. So NO F*&%ing Way. What about all the people that lost their house or job, where was BS bush when that happened or lost their house too hurricain or flood. He is a crook and I hope the states can see it. I do like John Macean on the other hand and you can tell he can't stand George BS Bush.;)

Worry about your own country before you start giving US advice.

The President, Bush, doesn't make laws in our country, Congress does. I know it's easier to remember a simple 4 letter name to blame though.....

John McCain doesn't run in Canada.....:p

[rango]

Hoover did this in the 30's AND THE JAPANESE IN THE 90'S. Better to do what Roosevelt did and give the foreclosing homeowners a stipend and finance their loans at a reduced rate and take a part of the profits when they sell the home they got to keep. When Hoover bailed out the banks, we had the Great depression. When the Japanese did it , same thing. What a mess.

[wolfstrike]

everyone in government is a socialist now.

they believe that money needs to be extorted from the public to solve the public's problems.

they believe that since the public was stupid enough to get ripped off by big business, the public should come up with funds to bail out big business just so they can keep their jobs.

basically, these companies are threatening to go "bankrupt" if they don't receive public money.

Bankrupt: closing their doors, refusing to pay benefits, ending all the jobs, and retiring with the 100 million they made in the last couple of years.

[21degrees]

Worry about your own country before you start giving US advice.

Your country has a big reflection on ours and most of my money is invested in the united states.

The President, Bush, doesn't make laws in our country, Congress does. I know it's easier to remember a simple 4 letter name to blame though.....

Since when. Definetly not the last 4 Years

John McCain doesn't run in Canada.....:p

ReallY:confused:


What Good has BS Bush done for you.

[desto1]

we should not bail them out,we the taxpayers and our children and their children will pay for it for decades to come.prosecute all the crooks in dc and on wall street

[jmac00]

ReallY:confused:


What Good has BS Bush done for you.


uuum actually, T-rat is right. The president does not make laws, The Congress does. You might want to go check out the constitution, it's a pretty interesting document:rolleyes:

And *BS* Bush (as you put it) is in BIG FAVOR of letting these business go under, however there is much more at stake than the simple economics we so enjoy debating.

[Tool-Slinger]

Hoover did this in the 30's AND THE JAPANESE IN THE 90'S. Better to do what Roosevelt did and give the foreclosing homeowners a stipend and finance their loans at a reduced rate and take a part of the profits when they sell the home they got to keep. When Hoover bailed out the banks, we had the Great depression. When the Japanese did it , same thing. What a mess.
Does this ''bail-out'' do anything to save home-owners? Or just the lenders? I thought homeowners were losing homes due to interest rate related payment increases, so if the fed made some other loan to them, would that not save both? Then perhaps make illegal some of the lending practices to keep this from happening again?

I don't understand this very well, detest the whole concept but expect feds will toss tons of money at the problem in any case. I would think it better to save home-owners with some loan / re-finance deal. I agree with chard on that point[as best I think I understand his point], screw the lenders, time for the auction-block if they have anything and investigate for any illegal activities. One time too, feds should not be in the home-lending business, but it sounds like they are determined to do something anyway...

Bailing out bad behavior by lenders sounds a tad like becoming an ''enabler'', won't correct the underlying problem and will just give them incentive to do it again as soon as possible because those risky loans are very high-profit loans when things go right. I don't see how bailing them out will solve anything, but just insure the big-wheel gamblers for their risky behavior. I say deliver pink-slips, repo some BMWs, and see how they like it. Their bad.

Again, I admit I am not really aware of what is going on with this whole issue. That is just my impressions on it and I am looking for answers more than trying to make a point myself. I just type with a loud mouth..:D

[jmac00]

we should not bail them out,we the taxpayers and our children and their children will pay for it for decades to come.prosecute all the crooks in dc and on wall street

I would agree with you up to a point? what is your solution if we don't bail "them" out.

Depression????

and if you prosecute everyone in DC? there will be no one to run the country ;)


My solution to this economic crisis is to put my wife in charge of balancing the budget, NO ONE will be happy, but the budget will be balanced by the end of the week:D

[Andy Schoen]

My solution to this economic crisis is to put my wife in charge of balancing the budget, NO ONE will be happy, but the budget will be balanced by the end of the week:D

Motion seconded. All in favor? :p

[Tool-Slinger]

AYE!

[k-fridge]

ReallY:confused:


What Good has BS Bush done for you.

No offense, but I chat with a lot of people from other countries that have no idea how the US Government works. Congress is actually the governing body that passes laws, controls taxes, etc. The president can do very little without congressional approval. Unfortunately, our news media leans heavily to the other side of Bush's political spectrum so the 'news' you see is quite skewed.

Bush has done good things and made some sizable blunders too. However we should remember that he's had a very tough ride with the terror attacks and the financial mess that's come home to roost. Both of these issues have been brewing for 20-40 years so there's plenty of blame to spread around.

Love him or hate him, Bush has done pretty much what he said he'd so and he bases his decisions on what he believes is right, not what the focus groups tell him is popular on a given day.

[Andy Schoen]

What Good has BS Bush done for you.

So do you consider Stephen Harper BS or not ??? Considering you have most of your investments in the U.S. ????

[21degrees]

uuum actually, T-rat is right. The president does not make laws, The Congress does. You might want to go check out the constitution, it's a pretty interesting document:rolleyes:

And *BS* Bush (as you put it) is in BIG FAVOR of letting these business go under, however there is much more at stake than the simple economics we so enjoy debating.

Hey if you can buy an election, why would you not veto congress or mislead them like he has. We watch american news and not just 1 channel. You are totally right about me not knowing the ins and outs of congress. Why do you think republicans are having such a tight race with democrats is because the american people have lost confidence in Bush.

[k-fridge]

Who bought an election?


Also, please explain the method that was used to do this.

[The Doctor]

Bailouts reward the bad behavior. e.g
In a bubble, asset prices are by definition far above equilibrium values. The federal government is now committed to guaranteeing the difference between the real equilibrium values of all debt securities and their stated/nominal value, which was created during the greatest credit bubble in history.from this article (http://mises.org/story/3117)

I hope their phone bank melts down again. That much said, they don't have the fortitude to allow the free market to work. Prosecute frauds and let those who can't adjust to market value get flushed.

It'll never happen in that circle j$^&. Most Republicans and Democrats alike. They don't believe in the free market.

[batdude]

marking my calendar here, am agreeing w/ my colleague glennac:
let them fold! everywhere else in the world when you screw up you get fired. you might get a few months of unemployment. these A-holes actually think they deserve a golden parachute.

one notable absence in the discussion of this ripoff is the concept of "moral hazard."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
noun
(economics) the lack of any incentive to guard against a risk when you are protected against it (as by insurance); "insurance companies are exposed to a moral hazard if the insured party is not honest"
"
from dictionary.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
an example would be, suppose you could buy insurance covering parking tickets. one thing you would see more of is parking tickets.

there is nothing in the proposed plan that would prevent these crooks from doing the same thing over and over again. (well, maybe a long prison sentence for the many who are guilty of securities fraud)

at Paulson's press conference the other day, he was asked what would happen if we didn't bail them out. (a legit question, IMO) and rather than answer he walked off stage.

there is no guarantee this ripoff will work, either. Beyond doubt it will smash the dollar and produce skyrocketing interest rates, which would themselves lead to a Depression. so I think the cure is worse than the disease.

[21degrees]

So do you consider Stephen Harper BS or not ??? Considering you have most of your investments in the U.S. ????

We are in a econimic Boom and house prices are fairly high. Not bailing out any companies and did not mislead canadians into a war like bush. When we have a disaster I don't know, but I just hope he does a little better than the people bush hired.:D

[RoBoTeq]

ReallY:confused:


What Good has BS Bush done for you.
I have respect and loyalty to my president and a foreigner making ignorant and rude comments about my president has no respect from me.

Who the hell do you think you are?

[k-fridge]

I have respect and loyalty to my president and a foreigner making ignorant and rude comments about my president has no respect from me.

Who the hell do you think you are?
And he refuses to back up his comments with supporting evidence.

[21degrees]

I have respect and loyalty to my president and a foreigner making ignorant and rude comments about my president has no respect from me.

Who the hell do you think you are?

You must be a saleman because all you know how to do is flap. You make comments about my country and you don't see me getting irrate.

[RoBoTeq]

And he refuses to back up his comments with supporting evidence.
As you have stated, many who are not Americans simply do not really understand our government and even more so do not understand the intense loyalty of Americans for our government. Too many ultra-liberal, Socialist leaning Americans have given foreigner's the impression that Americans are not loyal to our nation. They would be very wrong.

[RoBoTeq]

You must be a saleman because all you know how to do is flap. You make comments about my country and you don't see me getting irrate.
Liar! Show me any ignorant comments I have ever made about your country or any other country.

This is the second time you have brought up my being a salesman. Just what is your point? If you have something to say, stop being such a wuss and come out with it. I have a great respect for Canada and most Canadians I have known even when I don't agree with their political stances. You; I have no respect for because you are a coward spewing out useless inuendos and accusations.

[21degrees]

And he refuses to back up his comments with supporting evidence.

He got 4500 americans killed and counting.

He got economy that is not doing so good.

He got americans living in the street and can't get proper aid to them, yet he wants to bail out some company that has more money than all of us on this site put together.

Were is the guy that planned the 9/11 attacks, they had chances to kill him but they didn't.

Have you not seen the declassified CIA papers were agents were told to back off from bin ladens family.

theirs 5 now you tell me why he is so good.

[21degrees]

Liar! Show me any ignorant comments I have ever made about your country or any other country.

This is the second time you have brought up my being a salesman. Just what is your point? If you have something to say, stop being such a wuss and come out with it. I have a great respect for Canada and most Canadians I have known even when I don't agree with their political stances. You; I have no respect for because you are a coward spewing out useless inuendos and accusations.

Their you go. In Canada we just try to be not so outcoming. I just gave 5 facts now you back up your comments.

[air2spare]

He got 4500 americans killed and counting.

He got economy that is not doing so good.

He got americans living in the street and can't get proper aid to them, yet he wants to bail out some company that has more money than all of us on this site put together.

Were is the guy that planned the 9/11 attacks, they had chances to kill him but they didn't.

Have you not seen the declassified CIA papers were agents were told to back off from bin ladens family.

theirs 5 now you tell me why he is so good.


Look, I'm probably more conservative than anyone on this site and I've come to the obvious conclusion that GW is a total moronic DA but I stand with the others on the site to the fact that you really need to worry about mowing your own backyard while we mow ours :rolleyes:

[k-fridge]

He got 4500 americans killed and counting.
With congressional approval. We could also make an argument that the war prevented further attacks and therefore saved lives.

He got economy that is not doing so good.
There was that little issue of the planes knocking down the world trade center. This latest problem is mainly due to relaxed lending policies from the Clinton administration. And congress is the body that was suppose to be providing oversight BTW.

He got americans living in the street and can't get proper aid to them, yet he wants to bail out some company that has more money than all of us on this site put together.
Roughly the same amount that has been living in the street for decades. Most of them choose that life.

Were is the guy that planned the 9/11 attacks, they had chances to kill him but they didn't.
Probably dead

Have you not seen the declassified CIA papers were agents were told to back off from bin ladens family.
What laws did his family break?

theirs 5 now you tell me why he is so good.

Didn't say he was good, I have my problems with him. But I hate to see baseless claims like you've made either. You're spewing the same extreme left wing talking points that other misinformed people spew, and they aren't any more true now than they've ever been.

As for your comment about buying the election, it's been proven time and again that Bush won the vote. People need to face the facts and get over it.

[RoBoTeq]

Their you go. In Canada we just try to be not so outcoming. I just gave 5 facts now you back up your comments.
You gave nothing but ignorant opinions from someone I have no respect for their opinion. You are doing nothing but parroting equally ignorant ultra-liberal, anti-American sources who also have no clue as to how our government works.

Americans have died fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan for something you don't comprehend; loyalty. Not to any man or woman, but to a nation of Americans that they believed in. Remember pal, every one of those Americans who died in combat volunteered to do the job they died doing. Not one of the thousands who were murdered on September 11, 2001 signed up to be slaughtered.

What the hell makes you think you have a right being so ignorant to Americans anyway?

[air2spare]

Bush has all but ruined the republican party so now if we can find some einstein liberal to ruin the democratic party maybe then we can get back to a truly free country with a properly placed government

[jmac00]

Look, I'm probably more conservative than anyone on this site and I've come to the obvious conclusion that GW is a total moronic DA but I stand with the others on the site to the fact that you really need to worry about mowing your own backyard while we mow ours :rolleyes:


aaah the great thing about America, we argue and fight amongst ourselves but if some dimwit comes and along and tries to screw with us WE WILL STAND TOGETHER :D


heres another little fact you all might want to consider: the dollars has been falling lately, it obviously isn't worth what it use to be. But take a look around....Has the Euro taken over as the dominate money of the planet...that would be NO, How about the Pound......again NO. The Yen...nope.

oddly enough, everyone on the planet still wants to trade in US Dollars.....weird 'eh:p

[RoBoTeq]

21degrees (http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/member.php?u=77021) http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/images/statusicon/user_online.gif
Professional Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Alberta Canada
Posts: 1,171


I HATE SALESMEN!


So, you hate salesman? That's your problem now isn't it? You want to do something about it, then do something beside playing the fool with the stupid comments.

I know that I am more then a salesman. You, I don't see as anything more then a coward spewing out lies and ignorant commentary that has been plagerized from other Socialistic, anti-Americans.

And if you aren't a salesman, you won't succeed in anything you do.

[jmac00]

So, you hate salesman? That's your problem now isn't it? You want to do something about it, then do something beside playing the fool with the stupid comments.

I know that I am more then a salesman. You, I don't see as anything more then a coward spewing out lies and ignorant commentary that has been plagerized from other Socialistic, anti-Americans.

And if you aren't a salesman, you won't succeed in anything you do.

now, now, go easy on the pup. He has a few more freedoms than we do, obviously they have the freedom to smoke POT :D apparently a lot of it :D

[air2spare]

Hey 21DEGREES, why do Canadians come to the US for real medical treatment? Why do Canadian doctors move to the states to work? Enlighten us please :p

[RoBoTeq]

now, now, go easy on the pup. He has a few more freedoms than we do, obviously they have the freedom to smoke POT :D apparently a lot of it :D

Good, I'll make sure he's good and stoned before I poke him in the nose at the convention next year;).

[RoBoTeq]

Hey 21DEGREES, why do Canadians come to the US for real medical treatment? Why do Canadian doctors move to the states to work? Enlighten us please :p
We really shouldn't engage in an American vs Canadian stone throwing contest here. Both countries are great countries and both countries have issues that need to be addressed.

There are too many really great Canadians on this site who I would prefer not to offend the way 21degreeIQ has done to Americans.

[skwsproul]

I have respect and loyalty to my president and a foreigner making ignorant and rude comments about my president has no respect from me.

Who the hell do you think you are?

He does not live here. He has not given anything for his freedoms. He can not vote here. So his opinion does not count here. I have nothing against Canada but our economic situation has nothing to do with them and they do not understand it. Our itty bitty little population is the most powerful on earth due to our fortitude, hard work and willingness to make sacrifices to succeed so we will get through this and prosper in the end.

That being said I think these companies should be held liable and no proffits should be aloud until the money is payed back with penalties. If you do not pay your taxes you get penalised so why should they not be penalised for not being able to maintain their buisiness without totally raking their customers over the coals. If I can not trust my bank which I do most of my financial planning through than who can I trust. I am not sure if this is the best way to solve this problem but at least GW is not just sitting on his arse like that BJ getting ex pres did. You may not like the way he does things but at least he has attempted to more good than any pres since Reagan.

[RoBoTeq]

The bottom line with the problems in the United States at the moment are that too many have taken too much advantage of our freedoms. Since this has adversely affected many more Americans, those who created the situation need to be held accountable. If actual laws have been broken, those who broke those laws need to be punished to the fullest extent of the law. If no laws have been broken, the system needs to be fixed.

[skwsproul]

He got 4500 americans killed and counting.

He got economy that is not doing so good.

He got americans living in the street and can't get proper aid to them, yet he wants to bail out some company that has more money than all of us on this site put together.

Were is the guy that planned the 9/11 attacks, they had chances to kill him but they didn't.

Have you not seen the declassified CIA papers were agents were told to back off from bin ladens family.

theirs 5 now you tell me why he is so good.

4500 Americans voluteered to serve and gave their lives to protect us. Do not ever put blame on someone else for that, that is VERY disrespectful.

The economy is in the crapper for may reasons most of which are Clintons fault.

There are less homeless now than before GW and there are less per capita here than in Canada so I do not know why you even bring that up.

When were and how did we miss an oportunity to kill the sob. You tell me where he is and I will take him out myself.

Attacking a criminals family would retarded. That would be like saying your mom hates america because you do.

Take your 5 bull crap points and mind your buisiness.

[skwsproul]

The bottom line with the problems in the United States at the moment are that too many have taken too much advantage of our freedoms. Since this has adversely affected many more Americans, those who created the situation need to be held accountable. If actual laws have been broken, those who broke those laws need to be punished to the fullest extent of the law. If no laws have been broken, the system needs to be fixed.

I agree and I also think that 98% of the people including the pres need to learn to save instead of obtaining credit to have pay back with penalties for not being able to save and pay for in full. If this mentality would be more prevalent than we would not be in this predicament in the first place. Take a look at some of the old proverbs Dont count your eggs until they are hatched. Cash on the Barrell. Cash is king. It is only worth wht somebody else will pay for it. Save a little money for a rainy day. The list could go on forever. Credit is crap and I only wish that I would have learned that before I decided to rent my house from the bank for 30 years before I could say it is mine. No debts except the house and I am working on that one and educating my children and anyone else who will listen to buy instead of finance.

[RoBoTeq]

Yea, it's kind of ironic that people who have absolutely nothing are actually better off then those of us who are in the negative before we can even get to nothing because we were allowed to use funding that we did not have and could not pay up to nothing if we needed to immediately.

[duckman373]

I think there's enough blame to go around, and not much of it is GW

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1999/11/12/banking.reform/index.html

[chaard]

Back to the topic of the thread. GW is pushing the $700 bil. bailout that most people are against. I called my Sen. and Rep. yesterday and told them what I thought. Looks like they were already way ahead of me.


Senator Bond wants Wall Street bailout linked to accountability
Tuesday, September 23, 2008, 3:23 PM
By Steve Walsh
Capitol Hill lawmakers have begun the task of working on a bailout proposal to deal with the financial crisis that has hit Wall Street and Main Street.

Senator Kit Bond (R-MO) has taken to the floor of the U.S. Senate to express his desire for immediate action, while maintaining the need to respond responsibly without just throwing money at a problem. Bond says Congress must demand increased accountability, increased oversight, and increased transparency so that taxpayers and the financial system are never put in this situation again.

Bond also rejects any proposal for a golden parachute for those who created the problem in the first place, saying most Americans must be responsible for their actions.

[RoBoTeq]

The fact is that no matter what created our current situation, our government must do something and do something quickly. When put into a high stakes, stress situation, I was taught to "do something; right, wrong of indifferent; do something." In this type of situation there is always the chance that what you do may not be the best thing, but to do nothing is a guaranteed disaster.

One of the reasons the U.S. economy failed during the Great Depression was that nothing was done fast enough. Projects die while being beat to death on detail in committees all the time. This time the project is the United States. I would rather live with a bad decision then die having not done anything.

[Pneuma]

The 700 bill represents 5% of american mortgages. That is what they are betting will fail. IT COULD BE WORSE. It has nothing to do with bailing out a company.

The panic is that the other day there was a run on money market funds by the entire world. If that actually hapenned you could have wound up with no money in your 401 K etc. Banks would have been next and when you when to the ATM, nadda, regardless of your balance. This is still a possibility!

The problem started when the financial companies took mortgages and used them as collateral to make loans to business's and whoever wanted money, firms buying other firms etc. Then they did it again and again and again. The finanhcial system did the equivalent of taking out 40 second mortgages on your house. So as the houses default the second mortgages get called in. The fact is the collateral is now microscopic as compared to the money borrowed against it.

The 700 Billion is to keep everyone working as per normal and not panicing until the situation is somehow resolved. We still then have to somehow repay the 40 second mortgages. It's that or our houses will become worth 1/40 of what they once were.

What America needs is to export more and import less. Don't matter if your a repub or democrat, we need to earn back the money we borrowed from the world. Best first thing is energy, like T Boone says, natural gas is American and we can burn it in our cars and stop sending, i.e borrowing, 700 billion a year from the world in oil imports.

[jmac00]

whats with all the "accountability" stuff? whos going to be "accountable" for 700 billion dollars?

If this plan fails? what is congress going to do, Garnish Bernanki's pay for the next 30 million years:confused::confused:

or is congress just pre-planning the finger pointing if things don't work out???

look at it this way. If things don't work out as planned, whats the worse that happens.........we go into a depression. Guess what, if the government doesn't do something we will be in a depression anyway.

Is the government just delaying the inevitable? or is there any real hope for the future.

I prefer to think there is hope for the future and things will work out. Even if Obamamomma gets in office:cool::eek:;)

[whec720]

What's such the huge rush to push this through? This can not be good.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/25/news/economy/deal_reached/index.htm?postversion=2008092513

[frozensolid]

What's such the huge rush to push this through?


They are afraid that if too many banks fail at once, it will bankrupt the Federal Govt. The FDIC can only cover so much. JMO

[bootlen]

Bill O'Reilly said something to day I had not thought of. If there is no bailout, the very few very rich will not be hurt. Who will be hurt are the hard-working Americans who managed to scrimp and scrape to save a $200,000 IRA which will be worth about $6000 when all the foreign investors pull their money. The ones who get hurt will be the upper-middle income and below. There will be no retirement. There will be no jobs. Mom and pop businesses...the backbone of the American economy...will be non-existent. I am now of the opinion that Congress MUST, with prudence, bolster up the economy.

Something else I like about the bail-out...NO national health care plan. It will be out the window for at least 5 years.

Should they bail out credit card accounts? Not no but HELL no. Anybody who offers credit to a high school kid needs to go out of business anyway. And no car loans either.

[cold in alberta]

You gave nothing but ignorant opinions from someone I have no respect for their opinion. You are doing nothing but parroting equally ignorant ultra-liberal, anti-American sources who also have no clue as to how our government works.

Americans have died fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan for something you don't comprehend; loyalty. Not to any man or woman, but to a nation of Americans that they believed in. Remember pal, every one of those Americans who died in combat volunteered to do the job they died doing. Not one of the thousands who were murdered on September 11, 2001 signed up to be slaughtered.

What the hell makes you think you have a right being so ignorant to Americans anyway?

Robo,we also have had a number that have died in Afghanistan-please don't make thet reference.

[cold in alberta]

We are in a econimic Boom and house prices are fairly high. Not bailing out any companies and did not mislead canadians into a war like bush. When we have a disaster I don't know, but I just hope he does a little better than the people bush hired.:D



It's not a boom everywhere-you have something wrong upstairs:rolleyes:

[Andy Schoen]

We are in a econimic Boom and house prices are fairly high.

If that's the case, have you considered that your investments are in the wrong country??? :eek:

[RoBoTeq]

Robo,we also have had a number that have died in Afghanistan-please don't make thet reference.
I'm not the one who accused your country's leader of killing them. I stand by my comments as they were intended. There was no intent to minimize the loss of life of patriots of other countries.

[Leo3006]

I would agree with you up to a point? what is your solution if we don't bail "them" out

Why not offer LOW interest loans to the homeowners? NOT THE FAT CATS that gave the loan away KNOWING the smucks could not pay for it!!!

LET THEM EAT DIRT!!!! get a job at McDee's flippin burger!!! I wish we still had taring a feathering!

[jmac00]

I would agree with you up to a point? what is your solution if we don't bail "them" out

Why not offer LOW interest loans to the homeowners? NOT THE FAT CATS that gave the loan away KNOWING the smucks could not pay for it!!!

LET THEM EAT DIRT!!!! get a job at McDee's flippin burger!!! I wish we still had taring a feathering!

works for me. But I'll tell you what, if the bank was foreclosing on me I would MAKE them take me to court, then I would demand the show proof they are the ones that have my mortgage. These loans have been sold so many times, they banks no longer have actual proof of a mortgage. Without mortgage papers the judge will have to throw the foreclosing out till the bank can fine the paper work ;)

Good luck with that.

I don't know why more people don't try and negotiate a better rate, the banks don't want to be in the real estate business

[cold in alberta]

I'm not the one who accused your country's leader of killing them. I stand by my comments as they were intended. There was no intent to minimize the loss of life of patriots of other countries.

i can see what you are saying-fair enough.If you haven't figured it out yet the guy (21) is a edited by ARPC. No serious name calling please.

[RoBoTeq]

i can see what you are saying-fair enough.If you haven't figured it out yet the guy (21) is a edited by ARPC. No serious name calling please.
I don't care for his attitude, but then again, I was once misunderstood too;).

Seriously though; I would never dishonor anyone from anywhere who has perished while fighting for the freedom of others and against the aggressions of others. Canada has sacrificed sons for a cause that others would not even support.

[k-fridge]

I was once misunderstood too

You're still misunderstood. :D

[Twilly]

Twilli needs money and his funds are in the sh*t can

[skwsproul]

I would agree with you up to a point? what is your solution if we don't bail "them" out

Why not offer LOW interest loans to the homeowners? NOT THE FAT CATS that gave the loan away KNOWING the smucks could not pay for it!!!

LET THEM EAT DIRT!!!! get a job at McDee's flippin burger!!! I wish we still had taring a feathering!

Yeah let them try to make their houspayments on what the workers at Mcdee's make.:D

Ouch tarring and feathering was done with boiling hot tar which burned the person from head to toe resulting in 3rd degree burns all over and many died from it.:eek:

[RoBoTeq]

Looks like President Bush is getting beat up on a bit by other Republicans, including McCain. If ever McCain is showing that he is not a President Bush lakey, it is with this issue.

Hopefully they know what they are doing to at least know when they need to make a decision to keep us out of any deeper problems. I really don't want to have to learn Chinese.

[chaard]

The 700 bill represents 5% of american mortgages. That is what they are betting will fail. IT COULD BE WORSE. It has nothing to do with bailing out a company.


I have to disagree. It is all about bailing out company's. These financial institutions stretched themselves too thin by lending money to people that could not pay it back. They did it so much that they had no money left. Now they are going under and we are being told, not asked, but told we have to foot the bill.

I was watching CSPAN and a Representative Dem from OHIO had several good points, one of which I liked and that was putting a moretorium on foreclosures for 120 days.

Another comment I heard on the radio was that Wallstreet needs to be bailing themselves out. Holding each other accountable. That seems to be what's happening a little. JP Morgan will be buying up WAMU. And BOA will buy up Merril Lynch.

We can or Wall Street could get America out of this mess. The big fish just need to swallow the little fish.

Another way to knock this crisis down a lot is to get rid of the mark to market (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_to_market) formulas that these lending institutions were forced to abide by.
These loans were made when housing prices were high and people bought more house than they could afford. Now the market has turned south, people are losing their homes and the houses are going back to the lenders and a far less market value than what the origianal loan was written for.

Bottom line is Wall Street needs a correction. Not a hand out.

[chaard]

We are in a econimic Boom and house prices are fairly high.

I just watched an episode of Propety Virgins and the HO's were looking to buy near Toronto. They bought a $356,000 700sq. ft. house. :eek:
I wouldn't mind coming up there to work, but even if you paid me $35/hr, I still couldn't afford that price. Let alone live in a 700sq.ft house.:confused:

[21degrees]

You gave nothing but ignorant opinions from someone I have no respect for their opinion. You are doing nothing but parroting equally ignorant ultra-liberal, anti-American sources who also have no clue as to how our government works.

Actually I do!

Americans have died fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan for something you don't comprehend; loyalty. Not to any man or woman, but to a nation of Americans that they believed in. Remember pal, every one of those Americans who died in combat volunteered to do the job they died doing. Not one of the thousands who were murdered on September 11, 2001 signed up to be slaughtered.

Hey if you want to make this a Canadian virsus american than go right ahead.

Canadian Have lost lives too and I have familly in millitary that r stationed in afganastan right now as we speak, but that is not the debateis it.
What the hell makes you think you have a right being so ignorant to Americans anyway?


I am not allowed to comment on a person, that happen to be american.

[21degrees]

4500 Americans voluteered to serve and gave their lives to protect us. Do not ever put blame on someone else for that, that is VERY disrespectful.

Who is disrespecting anyone?
The economy is in the crapper for may reasons most of which are Clintons fault.

Yah Yah Yah

There are less homeless now than before GW and there are less per capita here than in Canada so I do not know why you even bring that up.

Not talking about homeless, talking about people that have had there houses ruin by natural dissaster.

When were and how did we miss an oportunity to kill the sob. You tell me where he is and I will take him out myself.

If you watch 60 minutes you might have seen when he was with a saudi prince and they were scared that the prince would get hurt.Attacking a criminals family would retarded. That would be like saying your mom hates america because you do.

Who said I hate america, I only wish I had dual citizenship. I have never said once in my life I didn't like americans or U S.

Take your 5 bull crap points and mind your buisiness.

Yah as soon as you do the same.

[21degrees]

It's not a boom everywhere-you have something wrong upstairs:rolleyes:

Look in the mirror my friend, you have never met me.

[21degrees]

i can see what you are saying-fair enough.If you haven't figured it out yet the guy (21) is a edited by ARPC. No serious name calling please.

AT least I don't hide behind a computer calling someone names, Strap a set of nuts on.

[21degrees]

Just to clear the air. I have never said once that I hate americans or that americans are jerks. That would be a total mistake on my part and I would not go their. I was just commenting on my opinion of what I think george bush has done. If a guy like Robo does not agree with you he will twist the words so it makes it seem like you did something wrong. No wonder he has to come on here crying he has no customers. If I had to listen to him all day I would definetly be seeking other products. Hey Robo if you ever get hungry do call me!:cool:

[Twilly]

AT least I don't hide behind a computer calling someone names, Strap a set of nuts on.


Twilli says James is that you?

[The Doctor]

"regulate commerce", not socialize debt.

Keynes would be proud of most of the Republicans on this forum.

I hope the legislators don't confiscate more of our money. Let bad business go down in flames.


The Bailout in a Nutshell
Posted by James Ostrowski at September 25, 2008 07:31 PM

Taking money from people who made good investments and giving it people who made bad investments in the hope that the people who made bad investments will make good investments in the future and the people who made good investments will keep making them even though they will have less money to do so.

[The Doctor]

The fact is that no matter what created our current situation, our government must do something and do something quickly. When put into a high stakes, stress situation, I was taught to "do something; right, wrong of indifferent; do something." In this type of situation there is always the chance that what you do may not be the best thing, but to do nothing is a guaranteed disaster.
The something that ought to be done is "liquidate bad debt", not prop it up. We ought not guarantee that those who make bad decisions keep their jobs in those respective fields.

One of the reasons the U.S. economy failed during the Great Depression was that nothing was done fast enough. Projects die while being beat to death on detail in committees all the time. This time the project is the United States. Oh come on now Robo, it's not the end of the world.
I would rather live with a bad decision then die having not done anything....the mantra of the Bush Administration. What's with the constant intervention? What ever happened to live and let live, or live and let die?

[Pneuma]

I have to disagree. It is all about bailing out company's. These financial institutions stretched themselves too thin by lending money to people that could not pay it back. They did it so much that they had no money left. Now they are going under and we are being told, not asked, but told we have to foot the bill.

The system is screwed, it was screwed by a lot of people and this bailout, which might not even work is aimed at getting the system going again. It's not a bail out of companies.

JP Morgan will be buying up WAMU.

WAMU was just seized by the feds. This is what risks we face. You can say we are bailing out wall street and maybe we are, but the alternative might be more banks failing.


These loans were made when housing prices were high and people bought more house than they could afford.

So who's fault was it wall street or people buying more house than they could afford? It was all of them. glass steagal act repeal, fannie and freddie trying to make everyone a homeowner, Bush in 2004 allowing finacial firms to lever up to 40 times assetts, the old limit was 12 times. It was a train wreck and a lot of folks had a hand in it. It was bipartisan and of course our whole country will be locked in one of two camps pointing fingers at each other. That is the biggest problem I see, the majority of Americans still think "their" party is right and the other is wrong.

Bottom line is Wall Street needs a correction. Not a hand out.

Bottom line is we are all in deep doo doo and politicians are about as well equipped to fix this as harry homeowner is to set up his own TXV. :eek:

[JRINJAX]

My Suggestion,
The Banks and Lenders who made loans to Illegals, unemployed, underemployed and Minorities who had not achieved creditwothiness should be allowed to fail. There will be other Banks and Lenders to take their place very quickly and hopefully more businesssmart.

The $105,000 to the Barak O-Bomb-us campaign should not be a get-out-of-jail-free card for the crooks who scammed their Companies.

I also don't agree that billions given to ACORN is in the "pressing National interest".

[bootlen]

Totally agree, JR. Anybody who offers credit to a teenager needs to be out of business.

[whec720]

The something that ought to be done is "liquidate bad debt", not prop it up. We ought not guarantee that those who make bad decisions keep their jobs in those respective fields. Oh come on now Robo, it's not the end of the world....the mantra of the Bush Administration. What's with the constant intervention? What ever happened to live and let live, or live and let die?

You are a wise man, Doctor. Let the market correct this. Pain is good, in a way. It tells you there is a problem. Problems don't go away, unless they are solved.
Why mask the pain and ignore the core problem? Think about it, Robo.

[jmac00]

most people I talk to are sick of this crap, they all want AIG and everyone else to just go belly-up and move on.

The prevailing feeling is, kill it and move on;)

[skwsproul]

Yah as soon as you do the same.My country my buisness. I have to just agree to disagree with you. I do not wish any ill fealings on you or Canada, I like the bacon:D Lets just hope whatever happens works because this could affect the entire world and that is everyones buisness.

[wallynut]

NO BAILOUT:mad::mad:

[RoBoTeq]

Just to clear the air. I have never said once that I hate americans or that americans are jerks. That would be a total mistake on my part and I would not go their. I was just commenting on my opinion of what I think george bush has done. If a guy like Robo does not agree with you he will twist the words so it makes it seem like you did something wrong. No wonder he has to come on here crying he has no customers. If I had to listen to him all day I would definetly be seeking other products. Hey Robo if you ever get hungry do call me!:cool:
You accused my president of killing Americans who volunteered to defend my rights, that makes you my enemy. As for your personal attacks about my being a salesman, like everything else you post, you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about. I brought about 2 million dollars worth of business to my current company when I started; I don't think I have a problem.

[RoBoTeq]

I got an idea. Why not get all of the liberal entertainers to do benefit shows and concerts throughout the world and donate the proceeds to pay off the U.S. debt. Should take about a year and we could show our gratitude by laying aside an honorary burial plot in memorial for their selfless deeds.

[frozensolid]

I got an idea. Why not get all of the liberal entertainers to do benefit shows and concerts throughout the world and donate the proceeds to pay off the U.S. debt. Should take about a year and we could show our gratitude by laying aside an honorary burial plot in memorial for their selfless deeds.

We will still be paying for it, wont we?

[RoBoTeq]

We will still be paying for it, wont we?
Not if they play all the rest of the world and not in the U.S. Barbara would do great in France, The Dixie Chicks would get a lot of Japanese money, a play with Nick Nolte and Tim Robbins would rack up billions from those perverts in Thailand and motivational speeches from Michael Moore would be a real hit in the Netherlands and any Communist countries.

[21degrees]

You accused my president of killing Americans who volunteered to defend my rights, that makes you my enemy. As for your personal attacks about my being a salesman, like everything else you post, you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about. I brought about 2 million dollars worth of business to my current company when I started; I don't think I have a problem.

Your right I don't have a clue, that is why I don't hide behind desk Robo, I just happen to be the owner of a HVAC company:D and sales is not my fame to glory,I spends money with sales reps like you and have 4 different ones. Not sure which one is the slipperiest.I was just wondering that if I failed in the HVAC business, I could always try sales, Did you ever sell cars or vacumns, how about time shares, you remind me of a professional telemarketer.:eek: I don't hate you Robo, I just wish you would let people say what they want and not blow it out of proportion. One last thing about those volunteers, they put alot of trust in the man that leads them and country that stands behind them. Most join at eighteen or nineteen and just have no other place to go or Idea what to do. We should help them out when ever they need it. Robo when ever I come into contact with a soldier(American or Canadian) I try to show them respect by any means possible. I just hired a guy who just retired from millatary, he is only 40 Years old and stationed over in afganastan.

[scrogdog]

I don't like the bail out, but it's necessary.

I don't like propping up criminals.

But this is one of those times where we are trapped by our own system. The fact is, without lendable money in the economy, we'll collapse. Why do you think all those countries contributed to a world lending fund last week?

Businesses have ups and downs. They have seasonal periods. They have identifiable slow months. So, as a business owner, how do you meet payroll in the slow times? How do you make it so your valuable employees don't leave you to seek work elsewhere?

Well, for one thing, you keep paying them in your slow season.

How do you do that? You take a loan. You pay it back during the "good" season and everyone is happy.

Without that loan, you're dead. With it, you keep people employed.

I don't like it any more than any other conservative, but now is NOT the time to punish the American people by upholding a value or standard. This is an emergency!

Now, let's say that your business has grown beyond expectations. You want to expand and create new jobs but you can't without a loan. So, on principle, we should refuse to grow the economy? Sure, the perps will be punished... along with everyone else.

If we don't keep lendable money in the mainstream economy, we are doomed. That simple. No one likes it; *I* don't like it. But I'm not going to collapse the economy and make innocents suffer on principle.

[jmac00]

I don't like the bail out, but it's necessary.

I don't like propping up criminals.

But this is one of those times where we are trapped by our own system. The fact is, without lendable money in the economy, we'll collapse. Why do you think all those countries contributed to a world lending fund last week?

Businesses have ups and downs. They have seasonal periods. They have identifiable slow months. So, as a business owner, how do you meet payroll in the slow times? How do you make it so your valuable employees don't leave you to seek work elsewhere?

Well, for one thing, you keep paying them in your slow season.

How do you do that? You take a loan. You pay it back during the "good" season and everyone is happy.

Without that loan, you're dead. With it, you keep people employed.

I don't like it any more than any other conservative, but now is NOT the time to punish the American people by upholding a value or standard. This is an emergency!

Now, let's say that your business has grown beyond expectations. You want to expand and create new jobs but you can't without a loan. So, on principle, we should refuse to grow the economy? Sure, the perps will be punished... along with everyone else.

If we don't keep lendable money in the mainstream economy, we are doomed. That simple. No one likes it; *I* don't like it. But I'm not going to collapse the economy and make innocents suffer on principle.

I disagree completely, A good small business man will PLAN on having slow times, and will have a plan in place to cover those times.

Taking out loans to cover the slow times or payroll is not a smart thing to do.thats the kind of thing that gets business in trouble.....

[skwsproul]

I don't like the bail out, but it's necessary.
Agreed
I don't like propping up criminals.

But this is one of those times where we are trapped by our own system. The fact is, without lendable money in the economy, we'll collapse. Why do you think all those countries contributed to a world lending fund last week?

Businesses have ups and downs. They have seasonal periods. They have identifiable slow months. So, as a business owner, how do you meet payroll in the slow times? How do you make it so your valuable employees don't leave you to seek work elsewhere?

Well, for one thing, you keep paying them in your slow season.

How do you do that? You take a loan. You pay it back during the "good" season and everyone is happy.

Save the "good" season money to pay them in the slow season and save your money on the interest. You and your employees win. The borrow money anytime things get tough is the reason we are in trouble to begin with. Creditors are brainwashing Americans into paying later for things they can not afford now, instead we should educate people that if they take the money and buy things with cash later we not only would not go into debt but we would be able to afford to have more and that would trully boost the economy

Without that loan, you're dead. With it, you keep people employed.

I don't like it any more than any other conservative, but now is NOT the time to punish the American people by upholding a value or standard. This is an emergency!

Now, let's say that your business has grown beyond expectations. You want to expand and create new jobs but you can't without a loan. So, on principle, we should refuse to grow the economy? Sure, the perps will be punished... along with everyone else.

If we don't keep lendable money in the mainstream economy, we are doomed. That simple. No one likes it; *I* don't like it. But I'm not going to collapse the economy and make innocents suffer on principle. IMO

[scrogdog]

Both of you are oversimplifying things in my opinion.

Ok, let's say that one of your trucks breaks down and is not worth repairing. Or it is totalled in an accident.

The "good times" money is not such that you can go out and pay cash for a new vehicle, is it?

So, what happens if you need a new truck and can't get a loan for it?

Loans keep the economy stable and growing. Simple as that. Without lendable money, we die.

[skwsproul]

Both of you are oversimplifying things in my opinion.

Ok, let's say that one of your trucks breaks down and is not worth repairing. Or it is totalled in an accident.

If it is broke and I can not afford another I fix it. If I have something that I can not afford to replace I insure it.

The "good times" money is not such that you can go out and pay cash for a new vehicle, is it?

I am not there yet but since I read Dave Ramsey's book I am getting close, so far I have no debt and the rest is on its way.

So, what happens if you need a new truck and can't get a loan for it?

Loans keep the economy stable and growing. Simple as that. Without lendable money, we die.There is always a way to avoid financing we just are not advertised these options.

[Tool-Slinger]

Both of you are oversimplifying things in my opinion.

Ok, let's say that one of your trucks breaks down and is not worth repairing. Or it is totalled in an accident.

The "good times" money is not such that you can go out and pay cash for a new vehicle, is it?

So, what happens if you need a new truck and can't get a loan for it?

Loans keep the economy stable and growing. Simple as that. Without lendable money, we die.
I am not following that analogy,.. suppose you cannot afford the payments on the new vehicle?

I get it, that credit is important,... but it has to be sustainable in return[payments], correct?

[scrogdog]

I am not following that analogy,.. suppose you cannot afford the payments on the new vehicle?

I get it, that credit is important,... but it has to be sustainable in return[payments], correct?

Of course. The problem is not only on one side. We also had borrowers that were clueless.

But, you have to keep in mind exactly HOW our economy grows. New jobs, my friend. So, let's say that you think a new location will REALLY rake in the cash. Most anyone *I* know can't afford a new building with cash assets. So, IF you can't... then you don't. With a loan you could. And the new incoming cash flow would hopefully ace the loan in a short time and give a few or maybe even a bunch of people new jobs. You win.

But maybe not. That's the risk you take. Point is that even those who call things correctly can't grow the economy without lendable cash.

[scrogdog]

There is always a way to avoid financing we just are not advertised these options.

Not in a growth secnario, sorry. We need growth to survive on a basic level. Just maintaining where you are is useless to America, but we thank you for maintaining jobs still. :)

[scrogdog]

I spends money with sales reps like you and have 4 different ones

In that case your sales reps SUCK in that they cannot propose to you how they can seperate themselves from the pack. And thus help YOU seperate yourself from the pack.

That's what it's all about, my friend. Both on your level and thiers.

[Tool-Slinger]

Of course. The problem is not only on one side. We also had borrowers that were clueless.

But, you have to keep in mind exactly HOW our economy grows. New jobs, my friend. So, let's say that you think a new location will REALLY rake in the cash. Most anyone *I* know can't afford a new building with cash assets. So, IF you can't... then you don't. With a loan you could. And the new incoming cash flow would hopefully ace the loan in a short time and give a few or maybe even a bunch of people new jobs. You win.

But maybe not. That's the risk you take. Point is that even those who call things correctly can't grow the economy without lendable cash.
Thanks for the helpful reply scrogdog, I find the whole mess rather difficult to understand.

[scrogdog]

Thanks for the compliment.

You are not alone. On a basic level, EVERYONE should hate this plan and everything that it stands for. Myself? I'd like to spit upon it.

But there is no choice. Unless Americans are willing to suffer for the mistakes of thier brothers.

I'm not willing.

[skwsproul]

Not in a growth secnario, sorry. We need growth to survive on a basic level. Just maintaining where you are is useless to America, but we thank you for maintaining jobs still. :)Growth is were my money grows based on investment not based on paying interest to creditors. i am unable to see your point enlighten me.

[scrogdog]

Growth is were my money grows based on investment not based on paying interest to creditors. i am unable to see your point enlighten me.

First thing is that you confuse personal growth with the growth of your business.

Not surprised you don't understand. :rolleyes:

If you don't "get it" from my other posts, I suggest that you never will. Do you have a specific question?

[The Doctor]

I don't like the bail out, but it's necessary.
No, it's not. The bad debt brought on by bad Fed policy or artificially low interest rates, which led people to make poor decisions, ought to be liquidated--not propped up as you propose.

I don't like propping up criminals.
Mr. Paulson is looking out for his buds at Goldman Sachs, which is why they suddenly are changing their charter. This means even more bad debt will be foisted onto the American taxpayer. ..which is why the $700 billion is open-ended in a variety of ways. Included in this bill is language that subjects Sec Treas. Paulson's decisions to NO OVERSIGHT, AND NO JUDICIAL REVIEW. You ought to be ashamed of yourself for supporting this bill.

But this is one of those times where we are trapped by our own system. The fact is, without lendable money in the economy, we'll collapse. Why do you think all those countries contributed to a world lending fund last week?

Businesses have ups and downs. They have seasonal periods. They have identifiable slow months. So, as a business owner, how do you meet payroll in the slow times? How do you make it so your valuable employees don't leave you to seek work elsewhere?

Well, for one thing, you keep paying them in your slow season.

How do you do that? You take a loan. You pay it back during the "good" season and everyone is happy.

Without that loan, you're dead. With it, you keep people employed.

I don't like it any more than any other conservative, but now is NOT the time to punish the American people by upholding a value or standard. This is an emergency!

Now, let's say that your business has grown beyond expectations. You want to expand and create new jobs but you can't without a loan. So, on principle, we should refuse to grow the economy? Sure, the perps will be punished... along with everyone else.

If we don't keep lendable money in the mainstream economy, we are doomed. That simple. No one likes it; *I* don't like it. But I'm not going to collapse the economy and make innocents suffer on principle.

We're going to continue going to work and living our lives and the world is not going to end.

For someone who supposedly doesn't subscribe to "sky gods", your reasoning (that we need to bailout the fattest of cats on Wall Street )here is flimsy at best. Those debts should be liquidated, and any fraud should be prosecuted. Period. Why allow the Fed to make this any worse?

[whec720]

Adults acting like children, i.e., no discipline. Do we want to reward this?
Take a look at this op ed.

http://townhall.com/columnists/JohnStossel/2008/09/24/what_happened_to_market_discipline

[Snapperhead]

Businesses have ups and downs. They have seasonal periods. They have identifiable slow months. So, as a business owner, how do you meet payroll in the slow times? How do you make it so your valuable employees don't leave you to seek work elsewhere?

Well, for one thing, you keep paying them in your slow season.

How do you do that? You take a loan. You pay it back during the "good" season and everyone is happy.

Please dont EVER go into business for yourself .... I would hate to see you starve

And just to give you the better decision to * slow times * instead of laying employess off , you merely cut back on payroll . No overtime , and if needed cut to 30 hrs - after giving them the choice .... ask them , do you want to be layed off , or can you survive off 30 hrs until business picks back up .

If the employess have their money stretched out paying for 500 inch - big screen TV's and a mercedes in the driveway , and are living check to check , well then they are a dumbass.

Oh and for the poster ..... NO BAIL OUTS FROM OUR TAXES