BARRACK HUSSEIN OBAMA: CONFIRMED MUSLIM.

[Tool-Slinger]

http://select.nytimes.com/2007/03/06/opinion/06kristof.html?_r=3&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Obama said it, in 86% muslim indonisia where he was raised you can bet your shorts he knows exactly what it means..
''''''', Mr. Obama described the call to prayer as “one of the prettiest sounds on Earth at sunset.”''''''''

http://www.toursaudiarabia.com/prayer.html

translation of this 5 time a day rant:
''''''I testify that Muhammad is the messenger of God.'''''''

Not just a phrase, that is a muslim baptismal equivalent. Pretty sound?.... has anyonyone ever heard this screeching and ever imagined it at daylight much less 4 more times a day!? I have personally murdered a few alarm-clocks for lesser offences.

Obama is a muslim. Period. Don't try to sell me anymore on this bologna that he is a member of that racist church that he has quickly retreated from, he is a muslim. I bought into that cr@p for a time, but no more, the facts are clear, crystal clear, not about partisan politics anymore as far as I am concerned. Obama IS a muslim.

[mrs reb77]

One would be very committed to listen to that 5 times a day...and call it the 'sweetest sound'.

[razorwit]

I'd rather see Obama be soundly beaten on the issues rather than on distortions about his religious beliefs.

[Snapperhead]

I'd rather see Obama be soundly beaten on the issues I'd rather see him beaten on the city streets with a bible ;)

[razorwit]

I'd rather see him beaten on the city streets with a bible ;)


LOL! Or maybe a Quran.:D

[glennac]

I'd rather see Obama be soundly beaten on the issues rather than on distortions about his religious beliefs.

Who says those are distortions. Sings true to me.

[razorwit]

Who says those are distortions. Sings true to me.

Maybe. The fact that there are doubts about his faith are partly his own fault.

[whec720]

Of course he is Muslim, look at his name. If he were Christian, he would have changed his name. Cassius Clay converted to Islam. He is now known as Mohammad Ali. He had to do this to become a true Muslim. That is, to take on a Muslim name, which is fine. At least he does not hide who he really is.
Barack, on the other hand...........................................

[razorwit]

His name represents his faith?
Hitler claimed Christianity as his faith, didn't he?
Come on now.
Obama has claimed the Christian faith all along.
If he's trying to score points with voters or ease their fears by lying about his faith as everyone seems to suggest, he can't possibly be dumb enough to expect to pull off a rouse like that.:eek::D

[Tool-Slinger]

I'd rather see Obama be soundly beaten on the issues rather than on distortions about his religious beliefs.
No distortions, that is an honest opinion, and 2 weeks ago I would have agreed with the ''distortions'' thought[did fully and would have included ''distraction'' too]. 2 weeks ago, I thought Obama no more a muslim than a martian. The change in opinion is not one I have arrived at easily or quickly, but there it is.

I do not think he is a radical muslim, probably not devout[perhaps even a non-practicing muslim, like there are non-practicing catholics? I am not exactly sure what that means], but a muslim at heart. That seems to me the only explanation that dove-tails a bunch of weird facts about obamas' actions/behavior into a coherent explanation. I will endeavor to focus upon my original post/point....

Just sticking to the ''prettiest sound'' point. How could that possibly be rationalized otherwise? The muslim call to prayer is in fact a man wailing in arabic. Did you listen to the link? It is offensive to the ear of someone of english speak, I dare to presume for others. No instumentation, I have liked many tunes that I was offended by the lyrics. There is no instumentation, hardly a tune, just a man wailing,.... Please listen to it if you have not, I linked saudi tourism folks so this is presumably a fabulous rendition of the all-time musim favorite. :D I just now listened to my own link for the first time[I already knew what it was] and I cannot believe anyone[english, and I like some mexican stuff among other mostly euoropean stuff I have heard] will not find that acoustically offensive. No instruments, wailing man in arabic,... I have wondered how that would sound if Crystal Gayle did it, hard to imagine but I am still 99.9% certain it would sound offensive.

I submit: the ''sound'' does not 'touch' obamas' heart-strings. There is something else.. Well, all else left is lyrics. That is all. And the lyrics are not simply a call to prayer, read it. It is a profession[testament/testimony] of the singers' dedication to islam. Obama hears and he thinks to himself, ''Oh my, how very pretty''.

Obama knows the meaning/lyrics. If he was christian, he would find the message offensive[ or at least damm sure not the prettiest sound on earth].

Muslim. Bingo. There you go. I beg you reconsider your opinion or help me understand where I got my own off on a wrong track here.

[duckman373]

I agree. I'd rather see McCain beat him up on issues than his name. The problem is, dems will beat up on everything, which mean you have to counter them with the same.

[razorwit]

Muslim. Bingo. There you go. I beg you reconsider your opinion or help me understand where I got my own off on a wrong track here.

Why does every objective thought about Obama get attacked?
So what if the man admires the sound of Muslim prayer?
Are we judging him fairly when we question something like that?
My opinion of Obama is formulated by assesing the record of his associations with people like the Rev. Wright (an extreme Christian "pastor") and the record of his tasks(or lack of them) in the Senate and the record of his stances on the issues.
I'm simply trying to be objective and not judge the man because he makes a statement about lipstick on a pig or notes that he thinks Muslim prayer is OK.

I don't like his politics all that much either but I'm simply not going to curse his every breath because I disagree with him.

[razorwit]

I agree. I'd rather see McCain beat him up on issues than his name. The problem is, dems will beat up on everything, which mean you have to counter them with the same.

That's a great point Duckman.
Everyone gets so caught up in innuendo that any constructive debate about the finer points contained in these candidates policies gets lost.

[freddy-b]

Why does every objective thought about Obama get attacked?

LIBS at work!

Are you really surprised?

[Tool-Slinger]

Why does every objective thought about Obama get attacked?
So what if the man admires the sound of Muslim prayer?
Are we judging him fairly when we question something like that?
My opinion of Obama is formulated by assesing the record of his associations with people like the Rev. Wright (an extreme Christian "pastor") and the record of his tasks(or lack of them) in the Senate and the record of his stances on the issues.
I'm simply trying to be objective and not judge the man because he makes a statement about lipstick on a pig or notes that he thinks Muslim prayer is OK.

I don't like his politics all that much either but I'm simply not going to curse his every breath because I disagree with him.
'''Why does every objective thought about Obama get attacked?''''

I don't now see that as an objective thought, seems more like a biased thought from my angle of perception. Not objective to love a religious rite, that is what it is buddy, not a brittany spears tune...

''''So what if the man admires the sound of Muslim prayer?'''' If so he is deranged acoustically. I mean seriously audio-retarded :D The lyrics are muslim devotionals.... I submit no christian will find this among ''the prettiest sounds on earth''... Not one real christian.

'''''Are we judging him fairly when we question something like that?'''''
Yes. Muslims have a pre-disposition to have bias against ''zionists'' and ''jews'', he belonged to a church who had some bias against ''whitey'' and defends muslim Faracans' outlandish accusations that USA has poisoned Africa with AIDS virus.,... That is all really very creepy and it deserves some investigation....
http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1735662,00.html
This sort of thing could affect foreign policy in a big way. Fair game. I think his religion is in question and justifiably so.

[I don't like his politics either, and wish that were the only issue with him]

[2cool4us]

Of course he is Muslim, look at his name. If he were Christian, he would have changed his name. Cassius Clay converted to Islam. He is now known as Mohammad Ali. He had to do this to become a true Muslim. That is, to take on a Muslim name, which is fine. At least he does not hide who he really is.
Barack, on the other hand...........................................Onl y wanted to avoid the military draft for Vietnam.:cool:

[whec720]

Only wanted to avoid the military draft for Vietnam.:cool:

The Vietnam War has been over for over thirty years, yet Mohammad Ali still is Mohammad Ali. As usual, what is your point?:rolleyes::D

[glennac]

Only wanted to avoid the military draft for Vietnam.:cool:

He was to young but he still would have been a draft dodger since communists don't want to fight communists.

[whec720]

He was to young but he still would have been a draft dodger since communists don't want to fight communists.

Muslims hate the communists. They do, however, embrace fascism when they are the overseers of if.

[RoBoTeq]

Only wanted to avoid the military draft for Vietnam.:cool:
Pretty lame of you since Ali has been a very dedicated Muslim in practice since his conversion and has given most of his earned wealth to the Muslim community to the point of not being financially stable.

[1X2X!!]

Of course he is Muslim, look at his name. If he were Christian, he would have changed his name. Cassius Clay converted to Islam. He is now known as Mohammad Ali. He had to do this to become a true Muslim. That is, to take on a Muslim name, which is fine. At least he does not hide who he really is.
Barack, on the other hand...........................................



What an ignorant idiot you are.




I cannot believe that you are actually an American. You have the density to paint all Americans with such a broad brush, that Americans think within the same moronic sentiment is offensive at the least.

Please kill your self as soon as possible, so you do not mis-represent yourself again against the better judgment of the American people.



Moron. Right Wing Moron.:confused:

[bootlen]

What an ignorant idiot you are.




I cannot believe that you are actually an American. You have the density to paint all Americans with such a broad brush, that Americans think within the same moronic sentiment is offensive at the least.

Please kill your self as soon as possible, so you do not mis-represent yourself again against the better judgment of the American people.



Moron. Right Wing Moron.:confused:

1X2X, we realize you are new to ARP. So consider this a warning. Name-calling is not allowed. Next time you will be censured.

Please go to http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=148000 and read with comprehension. You can avoid problems by doing so.

ARPC

[1X2X!!]

1X2X, we realize you are new to ARP. So consider this a warning. Name-calling is not allowed. Next time you will be censured.

Please go to http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=148000 and read with comprehension. You can avoid problems by doing so.

ARPC



Okie Dokie...


What's your position on the issue?

[bootlen]

Okie Dokie...


What's your position on the issue?

On what issue?

[1X2X!!]

On what issue?

Well, you figure it out. You called me out on it, you answer for it.



You know damn well what issues I am talking about, it's just your ability to figure "it out" that is in question.


I am sure you're just sitting there "??????" about the issues"


I am not impressed.

[RoBoTeq]

Of course he is Muslim, look at his name. If he were Christian, he would have changed his name. Cassius Clay converted to Islam. He is now known as Mohammad Ali. He had to do this to become a true Muslim. That is, to take on a Muslim name, which is fine. At least he does not hide who he really is.
Barack, on the other hand...........................................
I don't agree. The changing of a person's name is indicative of a cult. The reason is to show that you are wiping out and completely denying your past and Christ never alluded to any such action. There are many who are born in Muslim ruled countries who come to Christ without changing their names.

Obama it seems never really came to Christ though. Obama went to a hateful Church organization that teaches only a Black radical bastardization of Christianity that I believe Jesus Christ would not accept.

[whec720]

I don't agree. The changing of a person's name is indicative of a cult. The reason is to show that you are wiping out and completely denying your past and Christ never alluded to any such action. There are many who are born in Muslim ruled countries who come to Christ without changing their names.

Obama it seems never really came to Christ though. Obama went to a hateful Church organization that teaches only a Black radical bastardization of Christianity that I believe Jesus Christ would not accept.

Interesting point. Let mull that one over.
I've never seen a Christian named Mohammad though. Gotta research this one.

[RoBoTeq]

Interesting point. Let mull that one over.
I've never seen a Christian named Mohammad though. Gotta research this one.
A man named Mohammed would seem to be an odd one to be a Christian, but why not? We are given names based on the heritage of our parents. Jesus made it clear that there will be those who come to Him who will be divided from parents and siblings.

[glennac]

I suspect that Obama knows more passages from the Koran than the Bible. After all he did attend a Muslim school in Indonesia and most of his "Christian" upbringing appears to have been in the hate America "Black Liberation Church" where the head of the "Black Muslims" Louis Farrakhan is venerated.

I doubt that they quote to many passages from the Bible in that hate filled congregation.

[Tool-Slinger]

I don't agree. The changing of a person's name is indicative of a cult. The reason is to show that you are wiping out and completely denying your past and Christ never alluded to any such action. There are many who are born in Muslim ruled countries who come to Christ without changing their names.

Obama it seems never really came to Christ though. Obama went to a hateful Church organization that teaches only a Black radical bastardization of Christianity that I believe Jesus Christ would not accept.
[[[[[[[[[Obama it seems never really came to Christ though. Obama went to a hateful Church organization that teaches only a Black radical bastardization of Christianity that I believe Jesus Christ would not accept.]]]]]]]]]]]

My thoughts exactly, only I could not articulate it so well.

Obama is not really a christian, has muslim roots, and an intelligent, introspective man like that must have some serious considerations about faith of one stripe or another... If not a christian then what is this man? I personally think that a really smart guy can have his own religious veiws, loosely based on yet not devout in a social manner.

I am putting 2 and 2 and 2 together in some admittedly fuzzy math and making the rather bold assertion that Obama is a muslim. It ''fits''. I don't think Ali is a bad man because he is muslim, perhaps he is better for it and lord knows we have seen enough celebrity disasters. I neither think Obama is bad because he has a muslim identity. But a [I]really bad choice for a leader.

[Tool-Slinger]

I think razor is just peed that obama is a marxist. So what if obama worships the god of the local lake? He should be trounced for his political veiws. I do not disagree, but I am thinking about more stuff than just ''platform issues''.

Thanks everyone for the input, this is an important election and we all must puzzle out our futures and how it will affect us as we charge off into the great unknown of our daily lives.

YIKES!!

[razorwit]

So, everyone that changes their name is a part of a cult?

LOL
The hits just keep on rollin'.

Are you aware of how many immigrants came to this country and changed their name to assume an acceptable English name so that they could assimilate into a different society and prosper, while their kids could avoid having their asses kicked because they had an unrecognizable last name??

Clueless

[razorwit]

I think razor is just peed that obama is a marxist.


Therein lies the problem.....You think.;)

[RoBoTeq]

[[[[[[[[[Obama it seems never really came to Christ though. Obama went to a hateful Church organization that teaches only a Black radical bastardization of Christianity that I believe Jesus Christ would not accept.]]]]]]]]]]]

My thoughts exactly, only I could not articulate it so well.

Obama is not really a christian, has muslim roots, and an intelligent, introspective man like that must have some serious considerations about faith of one stripe or another... If not a christian then what is this man? I personally think that a really smart guy can have his own religious veiws, loosely based on yet not devout in a social manner.

I am putting 2 and 2 and 2 together in some admittedly fuzzy math and making the rather bold assertion that Obama is a muslim. It ''fits''. I don't think Ali is a bad man because he is muslim, perhaps he is better for it and lord knows we have seen enough celebrity disasters. I neither think Obama is bad because he has a muslim identity. But a [I]really bad choice for a leader.
Wow! This really puts it in a concise, rationally thought out perspective.

[Tool-Slinger]

Therein lies the problem.....You think.;)
Sorry to have presumed razor. Do you agree with obama politically? Do you agree with his political platform? If so, then I apologise for having misunderstood completely your position.

[RoBoTeq]

So, everyone that changes their name is a part of a cult?

LOL
The hits just keep on rollin'.

Are you aware of how many immigrants came to this country and changed their name to assume an acceptable English name so that they could assimilate into a different society and prosper, while their kids could avoid having their asses kicked because they had an unrecognizable last name??

Clueless
Again with the off the wall twists of what is being posted. No one claimed that anyone who changes their name is part of a cult. That was never even alluded to. What was stated is that one of the things that identifies a cult is the requirement to change the recruits name when it is for the purpose of denouncing that persons current and past being. Christ does not require us to forget who we are but rather accepts us as who we are and forgives us.

As far as your out in left field ascertations that I am not aware of immigration name changes, my own name Boyd is derived from Boide and has many other variations. That of course is not the same as having your name changed for a theological purpose, but then you have fallen back into your old habits of not following the intent of threads and just going off on incomprehensible tangents.

Oh, my wife's family name was so distorted from the original Russian name and the family history has been so wiped out that they don't even know for certain what the Russian name was, and that has only been in three generations.

[Tool-Slinger]

[[[[[[[[[Obama it seems never really came to Christ though. Obama went to a hateful Church organization that teaches only a Black radical bastardization of Christianity that I believe Jesus Christ would not accept.]]]]]]]]]]]

Focus here. That is what I was responding to, not the entire post.

[RoBoTeq]

Therein lies the problem.....You think.;)
Yep, back to the same old useless comments. I was hoping you had changed.

[razorwit]

Sorry to have presumed razor. Do you agree with obama politically? Do you agree with his political platform? If so, then I apologise for having misunderstood completely your position.

Your question is a perfect example of how wide a brush you and a few others on this thread are willing to use to paint anyone who disagrees with you.

Do I agree with Obama politically??
His platform??
Which specific part of it are you referring to?
Everything??
Ask me about a specific issue and I'll provide you with an answer.
I'm not willing to answer a question that is general in nature and asks for a general answer about things that need more attention than just generalizations.


My "position" is to look at the different issues and parts of every candidates platform and decide which is best IMO.

[razorwit]

Originally Posted by RoBoTeq
I don't agree. The changing of a person's name is indicative of a cult.
What part of your post did I take out of context?

[razorwit]

Yep, back to the same old useless comments. I was hoping you had changed.

Sorry about your luck.
I'll continue to try and debate any comment that reveals ignorance or prejudice.
If that offends you or doesn't sit well with you, it's really your problem to deal with.


The OP insists that BO is a confirmed Muslim and to this point, the only people confirming it are people who insist on distortion to promote their agenda.

[glennac]

Your question is a perfect example of how wide a brush you and a few others on this thread are willing to use to paint anyone who disagrees with you.

Do I agree with Obama politically??
His platform??
Which specific part of it are you referring to?
Everything??
Ask me about a specific issue and I'll provide you with an answer.
I'm not willing to answer a question that is general in nature and asks for a general answer about things that need more attention than just generalizations.


My "position" is to look at the different issues and parts of every candidates platform and decide which is best IMO.

With all due respect there razor, Obama has the most left wing record in the US Senate. He is a Marxist all the way. Myself I don't believe that there would be anything "politically" I could agree with him on period. You wouldn't have to define an issue. It sounds like you are dancing around the question to avoid an answer. Very astute but we all see through this ruse.

OK just give us your basic beliefs on governments responsibility. Should it be more than defending the country and protecting our freedoms or do you believe in the big brother goverment who "restricts" your freedoms for the benefit of the all the special interest groups and their socialist agendas.

[Tool-Slinger]

Your question is a perfect example of how wide a brush you and a few others on this thread are willing to use to paint anyone who disagrees with you.

Do I agree with Obama politically??
His platform??
Which specific part of it are you referring to?
Everything??
Ask me about a specific issue and I'll provide you with an answer.
I'm not willing to answer a question that is general in nature and asks for a general answer about things that need more attention than just generalizations.


My "position" is to look at the different issues and parts of every candidates platform and decide which is best IMO.
I apologize razor for having brought your politics into question. That was not my intention, nor is it valuable to the thread. You have some dissenting opinions, and I am just trying to understand your angle of perception. I hope you will forgive me if I have put you ''on the spot'' or something, that is not my intention.

You seem open-minded to obamas' platform in your reply,. nuff said. I am neither a mcCain platform 100%er. Let us move on buddy.

Within this thread, I am asserting Obama has a muslim identity.

[RoBoTeq]

What part of your post did I take out of context?
The fact that I didn't make any claims that it was exclusive to being indicative of a cult. We are not discussing immigrants, we are discussing Obama and names being changed for theological reasons. So, my comment was taken out of context of this entire thread, at least until you started injecting it with out in left field rhetoric.

[Tool-Slinger]

The ''OP'' did not start this controversy. Obama has made a lifetime acheivent award worthy effort to begin this controversy. Look at what he has done, he is asking for it to be questioned. Once you get beyond the question, then you must have an intellectual consideration of the materials presented. It looks damning, when you put it all together.

[RoBoTeq]

Sorry about your luck.
I'll continue to try and debate any comment that reveals ignorance or prejudice.
If that offends you or doesn't sit well with you, it's really your problem to deal with.


The OP insists that BO is a confirmed Muslim and to this point, the only people confirming it are people who insist on distortion to promote their agenda.
So why are you attacking me? I have not stated that Obama is a confirmed Muslim but rather that Obama seems to think of himself as a Muslim and that Obama has no real Christian values.

Nothing you have stated has offended me either. I really have no idea what you are trying to get at in most of your posts. You are playing the accuse and dodge roles you have played in your past life instead of the rational, thought provoking comments you started out with under your current name. I even defended you as having changed so much for the better. See, I can admit my mistakes.

[razorwit]

I apologize razor for having brought your politics into question. That was not my intention, nor is it valuable to the thread. You have some dissenting opinions, and I am just trying to understand your angle of perception. I hope you will forgive me if I have put you ''on the spot'' or something, that is not my intention.

You seem open-minded to obamas' platform in your reply,. nuff said. I am neither a mcCain platform 100%er. Let us move on buddy.

Within this thread, I am asserting Obama has a muslim identity.

Fair enough TS.
I appreciate your conciliatory tone and hope I have not offended you.
If so, I apologize as well.
And no hard feeling at all, I assure you.:)

I am not playing an antagonist here and regardless of what some may post, I am not attacking anyone.
My intention is to spur some objective thought about it and that seems to really piss some people off.

As I see it........
Obama has claimed he is a Christian.
It's OK to question his faith if that's what people want to do, but bringing his faith into question normally demands a verifiable answer.
Since we have no definite answer from anyone other than political pundits, novices on this forum and Obama himself, I am forced to accept his word about his faith as true.
I prefer to take a man's word on such matters until I find some verifiable reason that, in my mind, forces me to change my opinion.

[razorwit]

So why are you attacking me? I have not stated that Obama is a confirmed Muslim but rather that Obama seems to think of himself as a Muslim and that Obama has no real Christian values.
Fine Robo. Why do you suggest that Obama seems to think of himself as a Muslim and what Christian values do you think he lacks?
This is the type of rhetoric I am questioning and it's not an attack.
Many times I have read your posts and found them introspective and funny and I guess this thread just doesn't seem like you, at least, not to me.
All I'm getting at is that maybe you're being over the top and judgemental about some aspects concerning Obama is all.
No problem either way. JMO

[glennac]

Fair enough TS.
I appreciate your conciliatory tone and hope I have not offended you.
If so, I apologize as well.
And no hard feeling at all, I assure you.:)

I am not playing an antagonist here and regardless of what some may post, I am not attacking anyone.
My intention is to spur some objective thought about it and that seems to really piss some people off.

As I see it........
Obama has claimed he is a Christian.
It's OK to question his faith if that's what people want to do, but bringing his faith into question normally demands a verifiable answer.
Since we have no definite answer from anyone other than political pundits, novices on this forum and Obama himself, I am forced to accept his word about his faith as true.
I prefer to take a man's word on such matters until I find some verifiable reason that, in my mind, forces me to change my opinion.

I hope you never try playing poker razor. Anyhow I wouldn't take a politicians word on anything in a campaign. Obama has showed already on several occasions that the he will tell a lie so why believe him on this issue. I am not saying automatically assume he is lying but don't give his answer much weight since he has already been shown to not speak the truth on several occasions.

[razorwit]

With all due respect there razor, Obama has the most left wing record in the US Senate. He is a Marxist all the way. Myself I don't believe that there would be anything "politically" I could agree with him on period. You wouldn't have to define an issue. It sounds like you are dancing around the question to avoid an answer. Very astute but we all see through this ruse.
What question have I danced around?
In your mind, maybe a liberal and a Marxist are one in the same Glenn, I don't know. But to me, those types of judgements are far too extreme and intolerant.


OK just give us your basic beliefs on governments responsibility. Should it be more than defending the country and protecting our freedoms or do you believe in the big brother goverment who "restricts" your freedoms for the benefit of the all the special interest groups and their socialist agendas.
Generally, I have never believed in big, activist government and have always supported a less intrusive government.
But my beliefs are have nothing to do with the OP so instead of shifting focus to my beliefs as a means of getting even further off topic, maybe we could get back to the title of the OP and how you and those who support such a conclusion could add a bit of substance to your opinions.

[razorwit]

I hope you never try playing poker razor. Anyhow I wouldn't take a politicians word on anything in a campaign. Obama has showed already on several occasions that the he will tell a lie so why believe him on this issue. I am not saying automatically assume he is lying but don't give his answer much weight since he has already been shown to not speak the truth on several occasions.
OK Glenn...name a politician, present or past, that doesn't fit into your generalization.

[RoBoTeq]

Fine Robo. Why do you suggest that Obama seems to think of himself as a Muslim and what Christian values do you think he lacks?
This is the type of rhetoric I am questioning and it's not an attack.
Many times I have read your posts and found them introspective and funny and I guess this thread just doesn't seem like you, at least, not to me.
All I'm getting at is that maybe you're being over the top and judgemental about some aspects concerning Obama is all.
No problem either way. JMO
I am referring to the several alleged misspeakings that Obama has made recently.


To make a mistake about there being 57 states, by itself, could just be an error.

To make a mistake referring to "my Muslim faith", by itself, could just be a faux pas.

To make the mistake of defending a radical anti-American church that teaches a bastardized style of Black Christianity and then later denouncing that church as not being what you are really about, by itself, could just be a 20 year bad judgement call.

To claim that your name, all three of them, is not of Muslim heritage, by itself, may just be ignorance of your heritage.

To claim you were never a Muslim when government and school documentations state clearly that you were, by itself, may just be a matter of not knowing anything about your family, your culture or your youth.

To claim you have never practiced the Muslim faith when you speak about learning the Qu'ran and praise the Muslim call to prayer as the most beautiful sound in the world, by itself, may just be a personal preference for beauty in the arts.

To claim that you have no Muslim values and yet refuse to honor your country with a simple act of placing your hand over your heart, by itself, may not have anything to do with the Muslim requirements to not pledge yourself to any nation.

To be against a war that is against Islamic terrorism, by itself, may just be an attitude against war.

To push for bills that specifically aid Muslim's in your state and never any other faith based group, by itself, may just be something that seemed right to do at the time.These and more things that Obama has done are quite well documented and Obama has not addressed his reasons or feelings about any of them. Put them all together and I say the duck is looking, walking, talking and acting like a duck; more likely a Muslim duck then a Christian duck.

Now, you give me reasons why you believe I am wrong in my thinking. Show me where Obama has shown any real Christian attitude. Show me where Obama has specifically denounced Islamic attitude when it comes to terrorism.

[glennac]

OK Glenn...name a politician, present or past, that doesn't fit into your generalization.

Perhaps I did not clarify myself very well there. What I said about a politician I still mean but there are "statesmen" like Regan who I don't consider a "politician" in the usual sense.

Statesmen are for the country first and fore most and hold loyalty to America and not to a party or an ideology or special interest groups. Statesmen however are very few and far in between. In my opinion Pat Buchanan would be another along with maybe Ron Paul. Palin is a possibility also but hasn't been around that long to judge.

[mrs reb77]

Show me where Obama has shown any real Christian attitude. Show me where Obama has specifically denounced Islamic attitude when it comes to terrorism.

I don't think that will be possible..:o

[razorwit]

To make a mistake about there being 57 states, by itself, could just be an error.
I take it that this is your way of acknowledging that it was likely an error.


To make a mistake referring to "my Muslim faith", by itself, could just be a faux pas.
Barack Obama never stated that he "was once a Muslim" (radical or otherwise), so his "handlers" have nothing to "conceal." It has been noted that "Senator Obama has never been a Muslim. As a six-year-old in Catholic school, he studied the catechism." Barack Obama has been associated with the United Church of Christ since the mid-1980s, describes himself as a Christian, and says that he is "rooted in the Christian tradition."


To make the mistake of defending a radical anti-American church that teaches a bastardized style of Black Christianity and then later denouncing that church as not being what you are really about, by itself, could just be a 20 year bad judgement call.
On this point, I agree.


To claim that your name, all three of them, is not of Muslim heritage, by itself, may just be ignorance of your heritage.
The common refutation is that Swahili words and names are of Arabic origin (just as many English words originated with other languages). "Barack" is a Swahili name that entered the language via historical trade and cultural ties with Arabia.


To claim you were never a Muslim when government and school documentations state clearly that you were, by itself, may just be a matter of not knowing anything about your family, your culture or your youth.
Obama has elaborated on his early schooling and explained that he attended both Catholic and Muslim schools in Indonesia, not out of any particular religious affiliation, but because his mother wanted him to obtain the best education possible under the circumstances.

To claim you have never practiced the Muslim faith when you speak about learning the Qu'ran and praise the Muslim call to prayer as the most beautiful sound in the world, by itself, may just be a personal preference for beauty in the arts.Insight magazine claimed in a January 2007 article that Barack Obama spent at least four years attending what is variously described as a "madrassa," a "radical Muslim religious school," or a "Muslim seminary" in Indonesia, but CNN reported that its own investigation found those claims to be false, noting that the schools headmaster said, "This is a public school. We don't focus on religion," "In our daily lives, we try to respect religion, but we don't give preferential treatment."


To claim that you have no Muslim values and yet refuse to honor your country with a simple act of placing your hand over your heart, by itself, may not have anything to do with the Muslim requirements to not pledge yourself to any nation.
Obama swore his oath on a bible to this country.
Muslim values? I could note that some of the values you have are exactly the same as those of a Muslim. Rhetoric.


To be against a war that is against Islamic terrorism, by itself, may just be an attitude against war.Are you forgetting that there are a good many Americans who object to a war that you charachterize as "against Islamic terrorism"? And there are a good many soldiers out there fighting that very war who are against it as well. Not that I don't agree, I'm just pointing out that you are using it against Obama to portray him as unpatriotic while you probably wouldn't make the same claim against American soldiers engaged there.
I think Obama has successfully noted why he thinks Afghanistan is where the war against terror should be fought and why he thinks Iraq is not where we should be.
Again, I'm not agreeing with the man. I'm simply pointing out the responses he has given on the claims you have repeated.


To push for bills that specifically aid Muslim's in your state and never any other faith based group, by itself, may just be something that seemed right to do at the time.
What bills are you referring to?

[RoBoTeq]

Razor, you have proven yourself to be an Obama apologist even more so then many Democrats. You have also proven what I am saying about Obama's actions speaking much louder then his words. In most of your apologies for Obama's actions you state only that Obama refutes what he had previously stated.

Trying to have a discussion with someone who continually talks in circles and refuses to acknowledge absolute facts is just too boring to continue. Please don't expect a response when you next post; "what absolute facts" or "what has Obama previously stated", these things have all been around your track many times already.

[glennac]

Razor, you have proven yourself to be an Obama apologist even more so then many Democrats. You have also proven what I am saying about Obama's actions speaking much louder then his words. In most of your apologies for Obama's actions you state only that Obama refutes what he had previously stated.

Trying to have a discussion with someone who continually talks in circles and refuses to acknowledge absolute facts is just too boring to continue. Please don't expect a response when you next post; "what absolute facts" or "what has Obama previously stated", these things have all been around your track many times already.

Yeah it's like (sorry my photo bucket won't work now. I was trying to show the beating of a dead horse. sin loy):)

[RoBoTeq]

Yeah it's like (sorry my photo bucket won't work now. I was trying to show the beating of a dead horse. sin loy):)
You mean like this; http://bp1.blogger.com/_hBGTcYMP0Ok/R4ZI3vrP5pI/AAAAAAAAAAw/h_pYQR78TzA/S226/flogging+dead+horse.jpg

[razorwit]

Yeah it's like (sorry my photo bucket won't work now. I was trying to show the beating of a dead horse. sin loy):)

This from the master of horse beating.:p

From you, we get one liners with no substance intent on nothing more than recrimination....with your sidekick we get nothing but paragraphs with no substance intent on nothing more than recrimination.

A regular comedic tag team.

[razorwit]

Razor, you have proven yourself to be an Obama apologist even more so then many Democrats. You have also proven what I am saying about Obama's actions speaking much louder then his words. In most of your apologies for Obama's actions you state only that Obama refutes what he had previously stated.

Trying to have a discussion with someone who continually talks in circles and refuses to acknowledge absolute facts is just too boring to continue. Please don't expect a response when you next post; "what absolute facts" or "what has Obama previously stated", these things have all been around your track many times already.

I'll take that as a white flag, surrendering your rhetoric to the boneyard where it belongs.

[k-fridge]

Why don't you guys just pee for distance and settle this once and for all. :D

[RoBoTeq]

Why don't you guys just pee for distance and settle this once and for all. :D
:DShe would never admit if she lost;)

[razorwit]

Why don't you guys just pee for distance and settle this once and for all. :D

LOL :D:D

[mrs reb77]

Barack Obama never stated that he "was once a Muslim" (radical or otherwise), so his "handlers" have nothing to "conceal." It has been noted that "Senator Obama has never been a Muslim. As a six-year-old in Catholic school, he studied the catechism." Barack Obama has been associated with the United Church of Christ since the mid-1980s, describes himself as a Christian, and says that he is "rooted in the Christian tradition."


So, when he said (and I quote) "Let's not play games," he said. "What I was suggesting -- you're absolutely right that John McCain has not talked about my Muslim faith. And you're absolutely right that that has not come."
you don't believe he actually said "MY MUSLIM FAITH"?

Here, have a copy of the interview. These are the types of 'misspeak' Robo is referring to that you insist don't exist.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/sep/07/obama-verbal-slip-fuels-his-critics/

[razorwit]

So, when he said (and I quote) "Let's not play games," he said. "What I was suggesting -- you're absolutely right that John McCain has not talked about my Muslim faith. And you're absolutely right that that has not come."
you don't believe he actually said "MY MUSLIM FAITH"?

Here, have a copy of the interview. These are the types of 'misspeak' Robo is referring to that you insist don't exist.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/sep/07/obama-verbal-slip-fuels-his-critics/

That's exactly what he said. What's the point?
Read your own link.
He was trying to criticize the McCain smear by noting that McCain hadn't talked about it because it did not exist.
Let's not argue semantics here. You guys are all over simple errors in speaking when it's Obama and very much lenient when it comes to McCain. You really should get over your fear.
He was referring to the fact that McCain would not be so dumb as to challenge what Obama himself has noted about his faith.
Apparently, McCain's wisdom in that aspect hasn't caught on in the general public.

[razorwit]

Razor, you have proven yourself to be an Obama apologist even more so then many Democrats. You have also proven what I am saying about Obama's actions speaking much louder then his words. In most of your apologies for Obama's actions you state only that Obama refutes what he had previously stated.
Apologist, my ass. It's easy to argue in defense or justification of something when the only substance being noted is lies and distortion en' masse.
That's your schtick. You parrott a bunch of BS and trot it in here as if it's fact and most of the people in here simply agree with you.
I'm not one of those people, pal.
You want to portray opinions as fact, go ahead.
I'll keep asking you for the things you never seem to be able to provide.

[razorwit]

Sorry...double post.

[razorwit]

Here's a McCain misstatement...


Speaking to reporters in Amman, the Jordanian capital, McCain said he and two Senate colleagues traveling with him continue to be concerned about Iranian operatives “taking al-Qaeda into Iran, training them and sending them back.”

Pressed to elaborate, McCain said it was “common knowledge and has been reported in the media that al-Qaeda is going back into Iran and receiving training and are coming back into Iraq from Iran, that’s well known. And it’s unfortunate.” A few moments later, Sen. Joseph Lieberman, standing just behind McCain, stepped forward and whispered in the presidential candidate’s ear. McCain then said: “I’m sorry, the Iranians are training extremists, not al-Qaeda.”

The mistake threatened to undermine McCain's argument that his decades of foreign policy experience make him the natural choice to lead a country at war with terrorists. In recent days, McCain has repeatedly said his intimate knowledge of foreign policy make him the best equipped to answer a phone ringing in the White House late at night.


Do we infer from this that McCain doesn't know Al-Queda from Iran? No, we don't. We acknowledge his mistake and move on and focus on issues and not BS.

[razorwit]

Here's another....

Asked on ABC's "Good Morning America" about the situation in Afghanistan -- where both presidential candidates call for sending more US troops to take on the resurgent Taliban and root out al Qaeda, McCain replied.

"I think it's serious. . . . It's a serious situation, but there's a lot of things we need to do. We have a lot of work to do and I'm afraid it's a very hard struggle, particularly given the situation on the Iraq/Pakistan border."


Do we assume that McCain does not know that Iraq and Afghanistan do not share a border??

[NormChris]

There is no doubt that Obama's religious affiliations are a problem. He has yet to really define himself regarding his religious stand and some strange contradictions remain.

I think even people who seem to be ignoring this as a present concern will have second thoughts just before they pull the lever in the voting booth.

Most people have their reservations when it comes to the black panther party, black muslim movement and radical black churches. Obama is somehow connected to all of them regardless of what he calls himself.

[dan wong]

Wow, I read the whole thing. What a enlighting disscussion. Wow!

Okay, lighten up everybody. Vote McCain. he is From Arizona, Hehe

[tranquill]

It's interesting how the Israelis view Obama. He receives much support
both from Jewish liberals and arguably the right-wing AIPAC, but his
middle name bothers Israelis a lot. Also, there are doubts whether he is
really a Muslim apostate. Here is an article which analyzes Obama's
similarity to early Zionists:
http://samsonblinded.org/blog/obama-against-jewishness.htm What do you think of the parallels?

[wuz cool]

who cares what his religion is? If he is a muslim does that mean he is a bad person?

[RoBoTeq]

who cares what his religion is? If he is a muslim does that mean he is a bad person?
That depends on whether or not you think that thousands of Muslim attacks on others world wide over the past two decades is a bad thing.

Like it or not, the world is in the midst of defending itself against Islamic followers. Every Muslim, no matter how seemingly passive, is a potential terrorist against anyone who is not Muslim.

If Obama thinks more in Islamic terms, then yes, he is a bad person because he is deliberately deceiving the nation in order to gain power for Islam. Muslim's must put Islam before anything else, especially a nation full of infidels.

I judge people by their actions or inactions, not by their beliefs. Anyone who is a Muslim who has not supported Islamic terrorism and has outwardly denounced Islamic terrorism is not a bad person. I have not heard many, if any, Muslims denounce Islamic terrorism without their having some stipulations as to when it is alright to murder infidels just because they are not Muslim.

Muslims are encouraged to lie to infidels (all who are not Muslim) in order to gain power amongst infidels in order to defeat infidels. If Obama thinks of himself as a Muslim, then Obama will use his powers in government for the purpose of supporting Muslims, which he has already done as a senator.

[RoBoTeq]

It's interesting how the Israelis view Obama. He receives much support
both from Jewish liberals and arguably the right-wing AIPAC, but his
middle name bothers Israelis a lot. Also, there are doubts whether he is
really a Muslim apostate. Here is an article which analyzes Obama's
similarity to early Zionists:
http://samsonblinded.org/blog/obama-against-jewishness.htm What do you think of the parallels?
Obama has many Jews a little concerned. Many Jews who are not ultra-liberal, Socialist leaning Jews are as concerned about Obama's Muslim roots and lifelong connections as I am; http://www.natallnews.com/images/teaser/jewsagainstobama-web.jpg

My Jewish inlaws are all pretty liberal and they just refuse to even acknowledge the Muslim influences on Obama. All they see is the liberal Socialism that most Euro-American Jews have always leaned toward. When Jews can be so duped by someone like Obama, there is a real threat to our nation.

[NormChris]

Robo's comments are right on the money. Some of the rest of you should actually obtain a copy of the Koran and read it for yourself.

The Koran is a blueprint for violence and true Islam is not so much another religion but more of a philosophy of war. The crusades were a response to the Islamic invasion that was sweeping Europe.

Now with Arab oil money available true Islam is once again on the march. After reading the Koran itself then go read the sharia law and see how Islamic rule is implemented.

Islam is a religion, a system of government (quite the opposite of a democracy), and a system of warfare and expansion. The goal of Islam is World Domination. It is all in their own writings. Our government and media are hiding their heads in the sand just as they did in the 1930s with Nazi Germany and Hitler.

Now we have a guy running for president who has affiliations with Islam and radical american groups in Chicago as well as far out so called Christianity.

[wuz cool]

Braveheart the movie and I quote: " One day you will open your eyes "

Maybe your in-laws know something you don't. Or something you won't let yourself accept.
Stop believing that ridiculous nonsense you see on conservative talk shows and Rush Limbaugh.
I've heard Obama denounce radical islamists MANY times. It just depends on what t.v. channel you watch and what radio station you listen to.

[jim a]

I get my news from the only paper that chose to hype Obama's mis-speak.
That staunch bastion of independant thought, the only paper to claim by it's
own owner/diety that he is a god on earth.
Why are Christians so quick to eject a self admitted follower of Jesus for the opinions of a man/diety like the owner of the cited Washington Times, the (dis)Honorable Rev. Sun Myung Moon? Please google the W.T.paper and follow the leads to its owner and his outrageous quotes..

I bought a copy of the Koran and the passages with violent themes are no different than those of the Old Testament ,as to violence.

Is one full of violent metaphor and one real violence?

I'm not afraid to read other sources and don't think any cooties rubbed off on me.

If this election is framed in the context of a Holy Crusade the chances of
any solutions to problems in the world are eliminated for generations.

The copy I bought is the Abdullah Ali translation. Woooo, scary name!
.
(12 years of Christian education by Christian Brothers and Jesuits )
WWJD?
W.W. RUSH D.

[NormChris]

I get my news from the only paper that chose to hype Obama's mis-speak.
That staunch bastion of independant thought, the only paper to claim by it's
own owner/diety that he is a god on earth.
Why are Christians so quick to eject a self admitted follower of Jesus for the opinions of a man/diety like the owner of the cited Washington Times, the (dis)Honorable Rev. Sun Myung Moon? Please google the W.T.paper and follow the leads to its owner and his outrageous quotes..

I bought a copy of the Koran and the passages with violent themes are no different than those of the Old Testament ,as to violence.

Is one full of violent metaphor and one real violence?

I'm not afraid to read other sources and don't think any cooties rubbed off on me.

If this election is framed in the context of a Holy Crusade the chances of
any solutions to problems in the world are eliminated for generations.

The copy I bought is the Abdullah Ali translation. Woooo, scary name!
.
(12 years of Christian education by Christian Brothers and Jesuits )
WWJD?
W.W. RUSH D.


The old testament contains a series of records of violent acts but does not command anyone to violent acts in the present tense.

The Koran commands its followers to present tense violence. True followers of the Islamic faith and the Koran must act upon its commands. No such thing exists in the Bible. No Christian denomination today reads any Bible passages as commanding violent acts against those who reject the Christian faith.

You need to learn to read the difference between a past record and present commands and see how the followers of the faith understand their own written authority whether it is the Koran or the Bible.

[jim a]

Let's see

The Koran (written around 600 AD) commands Muslims to act in the future, while the O.T. only describes actions of the past?

Then why is the O.T. constantly proscribing how people should act now?

Levit.. et.al.

Seems you want your Kate and Edith too.

[ECIndHVAC]

There is no doubt that Obama's religious affiliations are a problem. He has yet to really define himself regarding his religious stand and some strange contradictions remain.

Maybe these contradictions arise from that fact that Obama is an atheist. He's obviously a very intelligent man, so maybe at some point, he became aware of all the contradictions and disharmony with modern science that are found in all religions, and decided steer clear of all that superstitious nonsense.

And maybe his affiliations with the radical black church stem from the fact that he realized that he needs some kind of religious affiliation to get elected, so he chose a big black church at random without paying much attention to their philosophy.

[jim a]

That's a lot of maybe's and one "fact" I hadn't heard before.

(warning, sarcasim coming)

If he wanted to impress the opposition you would think he would have chosen a big White church....maybe even join the Mega whited sepulchurs on TV and to the left hand side of the AM dial.

I'm takin' a break before my lobes explode.

[NormChris]

Let's see

The Koran (written around 600 AD) commands Muslims to act in the future, while the O.T. only describes actions of the past?

Then why is the O.T. constantly proscribing how people should act now?

Levit.. et.al.

Seems you want your Kate and Edith too.


The O.T. does not proscribe how people should act now. It is history. That is why we have the N.T. The new superceded the old.

You cannot show me anywhere in the old or new testament where present day followers of Christ are commanded to act in violence against non-believers. However, the Koran does just that and those Koranic commands are acted upon regularly.

[ECIndHVAC]

You cannot show me anywhere in the old or new testament where present day followers of Christ are commanded to act in violence against non-believers.

I am reminded of a short essay by philosopher, mathematician, and my personal hero, Bertrand Russell.

"Why I Am Not a Christian" (it's all over the web, and the full text can be easily googled).

[jim a]

But most violence in N.T. comes from the Christ Himself.....(I don't trust the N.T. writers on this point)

Tell me what happens to me if I don't accept Christ and die in the interim.
Seems eternal fire (not to mention gnashing of teeth) is pretty harsh.
Also, how about my ancestors on my dads side who worshipped Wakan Tanka,
The Great Mystery, Mother Earth , etc.before the U.S Gov,t imposed a system of.... this church gets this tribe, that church gets that tribe and so forth?

My dad said it is so hard for Christians to believe that a Tribe arose from a lake on the back of a turtle instead said ...a talking snake, a mans rib, and a man living in a whale are more plausable..

I studied the life of Jesus and anyone will do well to follow his actions and his life....I just eliminate the myth, lore, metaphor, and the scribes and Rebbe's exortations to keep in line or else! My Jesus is love.

This is my personal creed, no insult to your's or others.

[NormChris]

But most violence in N.T. comes from the Christ Himself.....(I don't trust the N.T. writers on this point)

Tell me what happens to me if I don't accept Christ and die in the interim.
Seems eternal fire (not to mention gnashing of teeth) is pretty harsh.
Also, how about my ancestors on my dads side who worshipped Wakan Tanka,
The Great Mystery, Mother Earth , etc.before the U.S Gov,t imposed a system of.... this church gets this tribe, that church gets that tribe and so forth?

My dad said it is so hard for Christians to believe that a Tribe arose from a lake on the back of a turtle instead said ...a talking snake, a mans rib, and a man living in a whale are more plausable..

I studied the life of Jesus and anyone will do well to follow his actions and his life....I just eliminate the myth, lore, metaphor, and the scribes and Rebbe's exortations to keep in line or else! My Jesus is love.

This is my personal creed, no insult to your's or others.

Boy are you trying hard and failing!!

What one teaches about the eternal destiny of people after this life is over has nothing to do with the commanded acts of violence to kill those who don't agree with you in the here and now!! Are you actually incapable of understanding the difference?

[ECIndHVAC]

But most violence in N.T. comes from the Christ Himself.....(I don't trust the N.T. writers on this point)

Correct. Bertrand Russell does a good job of highlighting Christ's "dark side" in his essay Why I Am Not a Christian

Tell me what happens to me if I don't accept Christ and die in the interim.
Seems eternal fire (not to mention gnashing of teeth) is pretty harsh.
Imagine that. Punishing people simply for what they believe (or fail to believe). First of all, it's not like we have any control over what we believe anyway.

Also, how about my ancestors on my dads side who worshipped Wakan Tanka,
The Great Mystery, Mother Earth , etc.before the U.S Gov,t imposed a system of.... this church gets this tribe, that church gets that tribe and so forth? Exchanging one brand of nonsense for another! What an improvement:)

My dad said it is so hard for Christians to believe that a Tribe arose from a lake on the back of a turtle instead said ...a talking snake, a mans rib, and a man living in a whale are more plausable..
Both of these stories seem ridiculous, don't they?
I studied the life of Jesus and anyone will do well to follow his actions and his life....I just eliminate the myth, lore, metaphor, and the scribes and Rebbe's exortations to keep in line or else! My Jesus is love.
Why waste brain space studying some ancient schizophrenic? Why not devote your mental energies to the wonderful world of HVAC science?
This is my personal creed, no insult to your's or others.

There's my atheistic ramblings for the day...

[RoBoTeq]

Braveheart the movie and I quote: " One day you will open your eyes "

Maybe your in-laws know something you don't. Or something you won't let yourself accept.
Stop believing that ridiculous nonsense you see on conservative talk shows and Rush Limbaugh.
I've heard Obama denounce radical islamists MANY times. It just depends on what t.v. channel you watch and what radio station you listen to.
You assume too much. I detest conservative talk shows as much as I detest far left talk shows and I Rush Limbaugh pretty much repulses me with his form of entertainment. Why is it that if people don't agree with liberals, liberals automatically claim you are a drone for far right media? The real irony of that assertation is that it is much more the liberals who only chant distortions and lies they are being told.

All of my comments are based on facts as they are recorded by the mainstream media which in itself is liberal biased. Hell, the only talk shows I listen to are on NPR.

Please show proof of Obama's denouncing Islamic terrorism without any concessions. I have given links and quotes to every claim I have made. Please don't come here with your biased opinions if you don't know what you are talking about or who you are talking to.

[RoBoTeq]

I get my news from the only paper that chose to hype Obama's mis-speak.
That staunch bastion of independant thought, the only paper to claim by it's
own owner/diety that he is a god on earth.
Why are Christians so quick to eject a self admitted follower of Jesus for the opinions of a man/diety like the owner of the cited Washington Times, the (dis)Honorable Rev. Sun Myung Moon? Please google the W.T.paper and follow the leads to its owner and his outrageous quotes..

I bought a copy of the Koran and the passages with violent themes are no different than those of the Old Testament ,as to violence.

Is one full of violent metaphor and one real violence?

I'm not afraid to read other sources and don't think any cooties rubbed off on me.

If this election is framed in the context of a Holy Crusade the chances of
any solutions to problems in the world are eliminated for generations.

The copy I bought is the Abdullah Ali translation. Woooo, scary name!
.
(12 years of Christian education by Christian Brothers and Jesuits )
WWJD?
W.W. RUSH D.
You are either not capable of understanding what you have read or you are a liar. The Qu'ran is written as a list of commands in which the later commands, when in conflict with earlier commands, supercede the earlier commands. There is absolutely no contexual or structural similarities between the Qu'ran and the Hebrew Bible or the New Testament whatsoever. So you have no clue as to what you are claiming.

The Qu'ran was orchestrated by a very confident militaristic leader who has brilliantly put the works together so that they can support any claim that a Muslim leader cares to claim at any particular time. The bottom line of the Qu'ran commands is that if a Muslim is offended by an infidel, that Muslim has a duty to destroy the offending infidel.

Some of the strategic brilliance of the way the Qu'ran is written is that a Muslim can live by the commands of living in peace among infidels for as long as it takes for the Muslim community to gain an upper hand of force, at which time the Qu'ran instructs several ways that infidels not accepting Islamic ways is offensive to the Muslim. Once the Muslim can claim to be offended, the Muslim must now rise up against and kill all who offend the Muslim.

[RoBoTeq]

Let's see

The Koran (written around 600 AD) commands Muslims to act in the future, while the O.T. only describes actions of the past?

Then why is the O.T. constantly proscribing how people should act now?

Levit.. et.al.

Seems you want your Kate and Edith too.
You really should stop showing just how little you understand the Hebrew Bible and it's purpose for Christians who follow the New Testament teachings of Jesus Christ.

The Hebrew Bible is a series of theological and historical stories, most pertaining to the failures of the ancestors to the Jews to obey God. The only claim to the future in the Hebrew Bible is the foretelling of the Messiah. The New Testament, for those who follow the teachings of Christ, most of whom were Jews at the time of the testaments in the New Testament, renders all but the Ten Commandments of the Hebrew Testament void. That's why it is called the "New" Testament.

The Qu'ran is completely different in structure and in intent. There is no correlation between the Judeo/Christian Bibles (collection of books) and the Qu'ran (A singulare set of commands orchestrated by one man.)

[jim a]

Norm, Sorry if I don't meet your expectations. Doh.. I must be incapable of seeing your point of view? Maybe you didn't make the case! I do allow for some Indians point of view.The Great Mystery, to wit : Life... I just don't know!
Q...What does your Book say about what happens to non-Christians after death was the orig. question.
ECI: Most old time Indians I know understand myth was a method of survival in the old days and before they swap one set of nonsense for another, choose the nonsense they have. I believe Jesus walked the earth as you and I and you seem to buy into the scribes nonsense attributed to him (Boogie Man) I think they added scary tales and miracles as a warning to the masses. No I don't believe in his divinity. Just a good human with bad press, The O.T.

Heresy in da room.

[RoBoTeq]

Maybe these contradictions arise from that fact that Obama is an atheist. He's obviously a very intelligent man, so maybe at some point, he became aware of all the contradictions and disharmony with modern science that are found in all religions, and decided steer clear of all that superstitious nonsense.

And maybe his affiliations with the radical black church stem from the fact that he realized that he needs some kind of religious affiliation to get elected, so he chose a big black church at random without paying much attention to their philosophy.
And maybe he's really a Martian with plans to unit or take over the world!

This is the problem with Obama; no one really knows what he is about. He had an atheist mother and two Muslim fathers. He learned Muslim ways at the ages that most influence a human's course in life. He joined a church that claims to be Christian but in reality teaches a bastardized Black only version of Christianity that preaches hatred for the United States.

Obama may be intelligent, but that does not make him smart. Adolf Hitler was intelligent. Gaius (Caligula) Caesar was intelligent. Ghengis Khan and Vladamir Dracul were intelligent. That don't mean I want any of them to be my leader.

[NormChris]

Robo, it is obvious that you like me have studied Islam and the Koran in depth. Robo is right on the money with his remarks.

The Koran (there are various accepted spellings) is very different than any western writings such as the Bible. The Koran does not list its verses in chronological order the way the western mind would naturally do. Instead, the Koranic verses are in their book starting with the longest verses and ending the book with the shortest.

This makes it nearly impossible to figure out what was said first, second, third, etc... It makes understanding the book very difficult. This happens to be an advantage to the Islamic scholars as then they can claim to be the only true intrepreters of the book. Only they have the secret knowledge of the actual sequence or order of the verses and which verses link with which. Very handy indeed.

Then when it comes to verses that contradict other verses of which there are many, they claim the theological device they call "abrogation". This is what Robo mentioned. The oldest verses or commands are replaced or abrogated by the last verses or commands. This too is very handy indeed since the book is again not chronological. So, only those Islamic scholars with the secret knowledge of which were the last commands know whats up!

Islamic scholars keep the general follower of Islam (Muslims) in the dark and tell them whatever they want them to believe for the moment or the current situtation.

Peace is commanded or violence is commanded depending upon who is being spoken to and for what purpose. Muhammad (as Robo pointed out) said Ali allows Muslims to lie as long as it furthers Islam.

Given that Muslims are actually encouraged to lie perhaps Obama is in fact a Muslim (He sure has the connections and background) who is leading Christians to think he is a Christian on order to get elected.

[NormChris]

Norm, Sorry if I don't meet your expectations. Doh.. I must be incapable of seeing your point of view? Maybe you didn't make the case! I do allow for some Indians point of view.The Great Mystery, to wit : Life... I just don't know!
Q...What does your Book say about what happens to non-Christians after death was the orig. question.
ECI: Most old time Indians I know understand myth was a method of survival in the old days and before they swap one set of nonsense for another, choose the nonsense they have. I believe Jesus walked the earth as you and I and you seem to buy into the scribes nonsense attributed to him (Boogie Man) I think they added scary tales and miracles as a warning to the masses. No I don't believe in his divinity. Just a good human with bad press, The O.T.

Heresy in da room.

No Jim, you skipped the question and have been trying to change the direction of the discussion. This thread is not about what Christians believe about life after death.

Get back on track. You have not answered any of the points brought up regarding real Islam and Obama. That is the point of discussion.

[RoBoTeq]

But most violence in N.T. comes from the Christ Himself.....(I don't trust the N.T. writers on this point)

Tell me what happens to me if I don't accept Christ and die in the interim.
Seems eternal fire (not to mention gnashing of teeth) is pretty harsh.
Also, how about my ancestors on my dads side who worshipped Wakan Tanka,
The Great Mystery, Mother Earth , etc.before the U.S Gov,t imposed a system of.... this church gets this tribe, that church gets that tribe and so forth?

My dad said it is so hard for Christians to believe that a Tribe arose from a lake on the back of a turtle instead said ...a talking snake, a mans rib, and a man living in a whale are more plausable..

I studied the life of Jesus and anyone will do well to follow his actions and his life....I just eliminate the myth, lore, metaphor, and the scribes and Rebbe's exortations to keep in line or else! My Jesus is love.

This is my personal creed, no insult to your's or others.
There is no myth or lore about Jesus Christ from the New Testament. The most violent thing that Christ did was to turn over the tables of those who were desicrating the outer halls of the temple. Jesus taught peace to the point of adnausea for most humans to accept, because we are flawed and we are corrupted by Satan's materialism.

Jesus is love. All who claim to be Christians who kill in the name of Christ are hypocrites and liars. I even wonder at times if we are not supposed to just allow ourselves to be wiped out by peoples such as Muslims just to get to the end of days. My humanity however urges me to defend myself while I know that taking a life is against God. I also know that as long as I love God and accept Jesus as my Lord and Saviour that my transgressions will be forgiven. Now all I need to pray for is that I am truly sincere in my faith.

[jim a]

[QUOTE=NormChris
"No Christian denomination today reads any Bible passages as commanding violent acts against those who reject the Christian faith."

So... Where do good non- Christian people go after they throw off this mortal coil? and does that count as violence?

[RoBoTeq]

Q...What does your Book say about what happens to non-Christians after death was the orig. question.

Let's focus on this one by itself. The Book of Revelations is the only place where contriversy really raises it's ugly head. Anyone claiming they fully understand the implications from the Book of Revelations, I consider to be someone who needs to be carefully watched for signs of needing a padded room.

For one thing, Revelations (a revealing of) could very well have been written for the time period directly following the crucifixion of Christ and may well be referencing the conflict between Romans, hold out Jews and followers of Christ. Most off the way religions are based on obscure one liners from Revelations.

In Christ's saying that all must go through Him to gain access to heaven (to be with God) it seems more to me that Jesus is implying all spirits of all times. Remember; God is only concerned with us spiritually after our mortal, physical bodies expire. So, Jesus the man may have only come about 2,000 years ago and only lived a mortal life for 33 years, but Jesus Christ, God incarnate, has been around forever spiritually and will be around forever spiritually. I just don't see God discounting the millions of souls prior to 2,000 years ago or those who reject God outright to not be with God. Jesus stated that many who claim to be with Him will not and many who do not know Him will be with Him.

I believe we make the mortal mistake of thinking we understand God when that is only a gift of false knowledge given to us through Satan. We must always look for where we are being deceived and always pray that our every thought is not a deceit.

[jim a]

Any assault on a mans religion by one of another faith seems to open that accuser to the facts regarding his own religion. Thats the thread.

Aside to RoBo....So now the O.T. is defunct for Christians?

[RoBoTeq]

[quote=NormChris
"No Christian denomination today reads any Bible passages as commanding violent acts against those who reject the Christian faith."

So... Where do good non- Christian people go after they throw off this mortal coil? and does that count as violence?
I believe that the Jesus tells us that we are judged in death, not by our deeds in life. Whether a person knows Jesus in life or not, all souls will come to Jesus in death. Everyone has a shot at heaven (being with God) or being in hell (being without God).

No Christian should ever feel anything but love toward anyone who does not adhere to teachings of Christ. A Christian's only commision is to "preach the Gospel", or, in other words "Tell of the Good News". Even with this commision we are told not to throw our pearls to swine, that is to tell the Good News to those who will use our words against us.

No mortal can bring any other to God. All we can do is tell the Good News and allow the hearer to make his or her own way to God.

[NormChris]

[QUOTE=NormChris
"No Christian denomination today reads any Bible passages as commanding violent acts against those who reject the Christian faith."

So... Where do good non- Christian people go after they throw off this mortal coil? and does that count as violence?


Jim, you seem to have a problem with basic logic. You can't compare the act of killing someone because he disagrees with you with what someone else believes God does with him after he is dead.

Christians today do not kill people who refuse to believe in Christ. Muslims are commanded to remove the heads of those who don't convert to Islam and to do the same to other Muslims who convert to anything else.

In addition, both Christianity and Islam believe in eternal punishment in hell for unbelievers. So in that respect they are equivalent. They are not equivalent in how someone dispatches you from this life to the next due to what you believe.

In the case of Mr. Obama he has ties with both Islam and Christianity. Therefore, since you have problems with both of these religions I would think you would be pretty wary of Mr. Obama. He plays both sides of the fence, will not come clean as to which he really is and no matter which he really is, you have a problem with them both.

[RoBoTeq]

Any assault on a mans religion by one of another faith seems to open that accuser to the facts regarding his own religion. Thats the thread.

Aside to RoBo....So now the O.T. is defunct for Christians?
The Hebrew Bible is not defunct to Christians at all. It simply does not have the legalistic values that it continues to have for Jews.

There is so much we can learn about ourselves through the characters of the Hebrew Bible. Jesus stated firmly that He was not eliminating The Law (presumably the Ten Commandments) but rather enforcing The Law of God the Father. Jesus even added an eleventh commandment that if truly followed makes it impossible to fail at any of the Ten Commandments; "Love one another as I love you."

Jesus also made it clear to the theological leaders of the Jews that their minor laws, or laws of man as required for social behaviour, was a yoke on the people that made it impossible for believers to function spiritually while still surviving in our mortal world. Most of today's organized Christian religions do the same as the Pharissee's and Saduccee's of Jesus's time did by requiring the believer to follow so many rules that we cannot function without failing.

One rule keeps us in God's graces; "love one another as Jesus Christ loves us." If we can do that, we are good to go.

[jim a]

[QUOTE=jim a;1992145]


In the case of Mr. Obama he has ties with both Islam and Christianity. Therefore, since you have problems with both of these religions I would think you would be pretty wary of Mr. Obama. He plays both sides of the fence, will not come clean as to which he really is and no matter which he really is, you have a problem with them both.

I have a feeling Obama would have would have no chance to prove he's a Christian since you decreed it. He won't come clean as to which he is? What do you have to see or hear to believe him? Christs endorsement?

My ONLY problem with religion is it's creeping into our SECULAR government . I don't want a theocracy of any religion....Mine included.

The reason religion is so popular in the USA is the Constitution allows for all forms not just Christianity. It's thriving without gov't support, Thank you.

[NormChris]

[QUOTE=NormChris;1992166]

I have a feeling Obama would have would have no chance to prove he's a Christian since you decreed it. He won't come clean as to which he is? What do you have to see or hear to believe him? Christs endorsement?

My ONLY problem with religion is it's creeping into our SECULAR government . I don't want a theocracy of any religion....Mine included.

The reason religion is so popular in the USA is the Constitution allows for all forms not just Christianity. It's thriving without gov't sopport, Thank you.


Islam's stated objective is world domination. It is clearly stated in the Koran. Since Islam is not simply a religion but is a governmental system, I would think you would be pretty interested in seeing that it does not set its foot in this country as it has been doing in europe.

England just changed English law to allow Muslims in England to use sharia law to resolve certian issues among Muslims in England. Islam and democracy are in direct conflict with each other.

If you don't want a theocracy, you should oppose Islam.

[RoBoTeq]

As long as a religion is not harmful to any citizens of the United States of America, all religions should be equally acceptable. As far as the separation of church and state, I'd like to see all tax exemptions taken away from religious organizations....when in Rome and all that.

As far as Obama claiming to be a Christian while attending a basically anti-Christian church that idolizes a Muslim leader and condemns the United States or any version of Christ that does not adhere to the hating of Whites, I'm just no feeling the love.

As far as Obama denying his Muslim faith (his words, not mine), he has misled the American people about his past and seems to keep behaving like someone who adheres to the Islamic faith (love of the call to prayer, supporting legislature that helps Muslims specifically, refering to his faith as Muslim etc.).

[razorwit]

Christians today do not kill people who refuse to believe in Christ".
Ah yes, but they have in the past and have acknowledged it and apologized for it. Christianity is no less extreme than any other religion when their followers judge different religions in a manner that promotes hatred and intolerance,

Muslims are commanded to remove the heads of those who don't convert to Islam and to do the same to other Muslims who convert to anything else.
If that is true, why do we find Christians living in predominately Muslim societies in the ME?
This is the type of extremism that promotes distortion on a grand scale.

Obama has indicated he is Christian.
All this hype and supposed proof that Obama is a confirmed Muslim has come from blogs whose only intent is to create an aura of fear.
So what if he has "ties" to other religions and non-religions? I'm a Christian too but I have Muslim friends.
Not once have they ever threatened to cut my head off.:p
And it certainly doesn't mean I subscribe to their philosophy.
Some of you people seem to think you could tell people that you can crap on the ground and it lands on the roof and expect them to believe it.:rolleyes:

The president's responsibility is to preserve, protect and defend the constitution of the United States of America.
It's not to defend this idealogy or that idealogy or Christianity or Islam just because you happen to believe it could be an evil religion or idealogy.
If the Jews are concerned about Obama's policies toward Muslims then they can vote for his opponent.
If Christians believe Obama is a Muslim, they owe it to themselves to investigate facts about his religious intent and decide based on facts and not lies.
If they then arrive at the conclusion that he is a Muslim, they can choose to vote for his opponent if they want to.

I hear alot of insults coming from the mainstays on this site being leveled against those who disagree with them.
Namecalling and insults leveled at their intelligence with nary so much as a mild reprimand.. but what I don't see is one single fact that would lend some degree of credence to their long winded orations about Obama's supposedly being a Muslim.
Presenting media reports and representing them as fact doesn't mean a damned thing.
You want to talk about rationale and logic and then you can't even support your own accusations with a logical approach.

This is an old, tired subject that has been hashed and rehashed ad nauseum and the tone on this thread has gone from bad to worse because a few intolerant individuals think their view of the world is a view everyone is supposed to subscribe to.

[bootlen]

Sorry, Chill. It ain't workin'.

[jim a]

Does Sabra and Shatilla massacre count...Christians killing Muslims? or how about No. Ireland Christians killing Christians? How about 8000 Bosnian Muslims killed by Christian forces in 95 (men women and children).

This is what could happen when people demonize an entire religion or denomination.


enough blame to go around
It seems not the holy book but the interpretation of same (both books)

his world domination my be ye as fishers of men
fav quote:
a pox on all your houses?

[RoBoTeq]

Does Sabra and Shatilla massacre count...Christians killing Muslims? or how about No. Ireland Christians killing Christians? How about 8000 Bosnian Muslims killed by Christian forces in 95 (men women and children).

This is what could happen when people demonize an entire religion or denomination.


enough blame to go around
It seems not the holy book but the interpretation of same (both books)

his world domination my be ye as fishers of men
fav quote:
a pox on all your houses?
Killing in the name of God is wrong minded religion, not what Jesus Christ ever taught. The evil that men do in the name of religion is the worst evil man can do because it uses God as a scapegoat for Satan's influence over man.

No one is defending the evils done in the name of Jesus Christ because it is not defendable. It was wrong and those who use Jesus's name today for hateful means are wrong. That does not make Jesus Christ wrong.

However; the teachings of Mohammed allegedly given to Mohammed are designed for world domination through assimilation or annialation. I used to believe that Islam was a parallel path to God, but I now realize through studying the history of Islam and the Qu'ran that I do not believe that Mohammed was being influenced by God. I figure either Mohammed was himself a brilliant strategist or was being influenced by the evil we call Satan.

[Tool-Slinger]

Killing in the name of God is wrong minded religion, not what Jesus Christ ever taught. The evil that men do in the name of religion is the worst evil man can do because it uses God as a scapegoat for Satan's influence over man.

No one is defending the evils done in the name of Jesus Christ because it is not defendable. It was wrong and those who use Jesus's name today for hateful means are wrong. That does not make Jesus Christ wrong.

However; the teachings of Mohammed allegedly given to Mohammed are designed for world domination through assimilation or annialation. I used to believe that Islam was a parallel path to God, but I now realize through studying the history of Islam and the Qu'ran that I do not believe that Mohammed was being influenced by God. I figure either Mohammed was himself a brilliant strategist or was being influenced by the evil we call Satan.
LOL! Funny how this decended into a defence of christianity!!! I think that is really cool, revealing! LOL!

Thanks everyone for the insightful input!

BTW if it matters guys: I am pretty sure muslims believe in the old testamant, I can call my ''muslim raised'' buddy and ask him if anyone wants to have that verified, just ask, I do not mind and he will be happy to answer. He told me that once before, but it may have been some issue of another context... i.e. they DO believe in biblical charachters from the old testament. I am 90% sure they believe in the old testament.

Muslims rally in the street and scream, ''DEATH TO AMERICA!". They call us ''the great satan''. And there is worse from heads of state, not street protests alone. muslims.

I am a little weary of reading this religious-equvalency-cr@p on this thread. USA is about 80% christian,1.5% muslim. You in-betweeners can pick a side or stay nuetral, but NO SELL if you try to tell me christianity is as bad as islam. Even if we were equally as bad,... WE ARE NOT MUSLIMS,... PICK A FRIKIN SIDE ALREADY! Or declare nuetrality, but stop picking on chrisianity within which whom has created the most prosperous nation of the world, your homeland.

Some of you guys make me sick, talking like americans [christians] are as bad as muslims, while you live in a christian-created civilization that is about 100 times advanced as any muslim nation. Ingrates. Despicable attitude. You should reconsider or move to Sudan.

So what has this conversation degraded to? " even if obama is muslim that is no worse than if he were a christian"? LOL!

[bootlen]

BTW if it matters guys: I am pretty sure muslims believe in the old testamant, I can call my ''muslim raised'' buddy and ask him if anyone wants to have that verified, just ask, I do not mind and he will be happy to answer. He told me that once before, but it may have been some issue of another context... i.e. they DO believe in biblical charachters from the old testament. I am 90% sure they believe in the old testament.


Not really. The OT is, among other things, a promise of a specific Messiah, entering Jerusalem on a very specific date, and dying in a very specific way. Islam does not teach that Jesus is the Messiah but rather merely a very wise and good teacher. So unless one believes in and acts upon the fact that Jesus is the Messiah, one does not believe the OT. At least not 100%. And believing in OT characters does not mean one believes in the OT. It just means one believes historical accounts.

[razorwit]

So unless one believes in and acts upon the fact that Jesus is the Messiah, one does not believe the OT. At least not 100%. And believing in OT characters does not mean one believes in the OT. It just means one believes historical accounts".

This is true. And that being their belief, Christians conclude that Jews, Muslims, heathens, Buddhists, etc. are all condemned to hell because they have not accepted Jesus Christ as saviour....no?

If you agree, let me ask you this....
Should a Christian marry someone who does not accept Christ as their Lord and Saviour?

Obama, his wife, and their children were all baptized Christian. They have professed their faith.
I find myself wondering why anyone would go to such lengths to tell a man that he is not a Christian when he professes to be just that.
And if it didn't suit their political ends, predispositions and prejudices, I'm sure they would be praising the man for being a part of the flock.

Oh, the blatant hypocrisy of it all.

[bootlen]

This is true. And that being their belief, Christians conclude that Jews, Muslims, heathens, Buddhists, etc. are all condemned to hell because they have not accepted Jesus Christ as saviour....no?

Yes. They are condemned by the law of sin and death. Christ is the "fix" for that condition.

If you agree, let me ask you this....
Should a Christian marry someone who does not accept Christ as their Lord and Saviour?

Scripture says, "Do not be unequally yoked," in talking about the question of a believer marrying a non-believer.

Obama, his wife, and their children were all baptized Christian. They have professed their faith.
I find myself wondering why anyone would go to such lengths to tell a man that he is not a Christian when he professes to be just that.
And if it didn't suit their political ends, predispositions and prejudices, I'm sure they would be praising the man for being a part of the flock.

The whole "Is Obama a Christian?" question is just that...questionable. He has said nothing to make me believe he is a Christian. Quite the contrary.

Oh, the blatant hypocrisy of it all.

Hypocrisy has not to do with it. Believers and non-believers alike are hypocritical.

[razorwit]

The hypocrisy of non-believers and believers was not what I was alluding to.
The hypocrisy I'm talking about is that Obama is telling you he is a Christian and you are rejecting him but your reasons for that rejection are not given and the reasons that are supplied have been denied by Obama himself and proven to be questionable.

What would Obama have to "say" to you to convince you he is a Christian?

Words alone are not enough. His acts have certainly been just as Christian-like as his counterpart..

[RoBoTeq]

Not really. The OT is, among other things, a promise of a specific Messiah, entering Jerusalem on a very specific date, and dying in a very specific way. Islam does not teach that Jesus is the Messiah but rather merely a very wise and good teacher. So unless one believes in and acts upon the fact that Jesus is the Messiah, one does not believe the OT. At least not 100%. And believing in OT characters does not mean one believes in the OT. It just means one believes historical accounts.
Muslims revert to the Hebrew Bible for historical value prior to the exile of Ishmael and his mother Hagar. Ishmael is the link that Mohammed uses to make the claim that Islam is the true path of the promise from God to Abraham.

It is quite an interesting story with some real time warps and time gaps that allow Mohammed to make this link. Mohammed claimed that Abraham felt so badly about exiling his first born son, Ishmael, that Abraham sought out Ismael and caught up with him in the area that is now Mecca, where Ismael and Abraham built the rock structure that is now so revered by Muslims that they literally die to make a pilgrimage to it.

Aside from the timing just not working, Mecca was not Mohammed's first choice for his holy land, Jerusalem was. Mohammed altered several aspects of Islam as he created it. Mohammed made his biggest move by taking an arbitration position in the oasix of Medina. This is where Mohammed began his power base among many races who lived in and passed through Medina.

Since there was a fairly large Jewish influence in Medina, Mohammed decided that Jews were the most likely to convert to his newly forming faith. His faith still followed a path from Abraham, but did not lead to Christ, so it seemed to Mohammed that the Jews should redily go for it. To help Jews convert, Mohammed briefly made Jerusalem the holy city of his new faith. When the Jews declined Mohammed's new faith, Mohammed changed the holy city to Mecca and focused on conquering Mecca.

Interestingly, in the beginning of his forming the religion of Islam, Mohammed did not force Jews or Christians to convert or be killed. As "people of the book", the book being the Hebrew Bible, Jews and Christians were only forced to pay tribute and keep their faith practices low key and out of sight. This too changed in Mohammed's lifetime.

Once Mohammed got to be revered in Medina, he started branching out by forming military forces to attack caravans traveling to Mecca. This began the act of forced conversion or death. If you did not convert to Mohammed's still forming faith, you were killed and your possetions became the spoils of war. If you did convert, you agreed to pay into the Islamic fund a large portion of your worth along with a portion of any future earnings and assets.

So, the split between the Abrahamic faiths comes with the split between the Arab nations that sprung from Ishmael and the Jewish nations that sprung from Isaac, Abraham's second son by his wife Sarah. Jews continue to wait for a Messiah who will make them the rulers of the world. Muslims continue to spread like a disease, wait until they are strong enough and then start killing to become the rulers of the world. Christians have screwed Chist's message badly over the centuries but will get back to Christ's promise of everlasting spiritual peace with no need to rule over the physical world at all.

Theologically, Ishmael was the product of a decision made by Sarah as to how to give Abraham a son and heir. By doing what Sarah did, she basically went against God who already had plans for Abraham's heir. Isaac is the product of God's will that Abraham have a son by Sarah, so Isaac is God's choice and Ishmael is the choice of Sarah. God did not allow Ismael to suffer because of his mother's indescretion, but Ismael does prove that a humans intellectual decision can result in devesating evil consequences while God's decisions produces a Saviour.

[ECIndHVAC]

Here's something I've wondered about:

Christians always seem so appalled by violence in Islam. Granted, some Muslims believe in blowing stuff up to prove a point. And granted, Christians don't do this kind of stuff at NEARLY the same rate (true, there are some abortion clinic bombers, but the vast majority of Christians are very peaceful).

But I don't see how the violence in Christian doctrine is any less appalling. I mean, the violence of Muslims in the "here and now" really pales in comparison to the Christian violence in the "here after". I guess I just don't understand how Christians can lead normal, happy lives knowing (or at least believing) that their friends, family, former lovers, etc, will be undergoing unimaginably brutal treatment in a few short years.

Bottom line: If Christians are so convince that there is a "here after", why are they so fussy about pointing out that Islamic violence occurs in the "here and now" and Christian violence occurs in the "here after.":confused::confused::confused::confused:

[RoBoTeq]

The hypocrisy of non-believers and believers was not what I was alluding to.
The hypocrisy I'm talking about is that Obama is telling you he is a Christian and you are rejecting him but your reasons for that rejection are not given and the reasons that are supplied have been denied by Obama himself and proven to be questionable.

What would Obama have to "say" to you to convince you he is a Christian?

Words alone are not enough. His acts have certainly been just as Christian-like as his counterpart..
Answered many times already. I can claim to be Buddhist, but since I speak and act like a Christian, what would people think of my claiming I were Buddhist?

[mrs reb77]

The hypocrisy of non-believers and believers was not what I was alluding to.
The hypocrisy I'm talking about is that Obama is telling you he is a Christian and you are rejecting him but your reasons for that rejection are not given and the reasons that are supplied have been denied by Obama himself and proven to be questionable.

What would Obama have to "say" to you to convince you he is a Christian?

Words alone are not enough. His acts have certainly been just as Christian-like as his counterpart..

Perhaps if he had joined a church that didn't have, first and foremost, Black Liberation Theology as it's mantra?
Perhaps, if he had joined a church that was first and foremost concerned with the teachings of Christianity?
Perhaps, if the church he had joined and the pastor he counted as his mentor wasn't a Hate American first kind of guy?
Making a mistake in choosing a church in which to worship is totally acceptable. Staying there for upwards of twenty years isn't. He touted this church as his 'entree' into Christianity, used it as his proof he was not a Muslim. And, when that backfired he finally turned his back on them. At least, that's what we are led to believe.
So, where have Barack and family decided to attend church services now? Or, are they just not attending services? Big Christians that they are, I can't see them not being attached to a church.
Or, maybe they're still with the church they joined because of the Rev. Jeremiah Wright?

There are many many questions, and many of those questions are because Obama made such a production of his church, his baptism and the mentoring of the Rev. Wright.
It is the 'Audacity of Hope'.

[acmanko]

Pope Robo I

[RoBoTeq]

Here's something I've wondered about:

Christians always seem so appalled by violence in Islam. Granted, some Muslims believe in blowing stuff up to prove a point. And granted, Christians don't do this kind of stuff at NEARLY the same rate (true, there are some abortion clinic bombers, but the vast majority of Christians are very peaceful).

But I don't see how the violence in Christian doctrine is any less appalling. I mean, the violence of Muslims in the "here and now" really pales in comparison to the Christian violence in the "here after". I guess I just don't understand how Christians can lead normal, happy lives knowing (or at least believing) that their friends, family, former lovers, etc, will be undergoing unimaginably brutal treatment in a few short years.

Bottom line: If Christians are so convince that there is a "here after", why are they so fussy about pointing out that Islamic violence occurs in the "here and now" and Christian violence occurs in the "here after.":confused::confused::confused::confused:
Jesus Christ does not teach nor advocate violence. Violence by Christians is from man, not from Christ. The so called claims to violence in the hereafter are again what man has determined certain very abstract scripture suggests. I propose that in the parabolic manner that the writers of the books and letters of the New Testament wrote, that they were attempting to portray a spiritual existance without God as the most horrible things we can experience in our mortal existance.

God is love. Jesus is the Prince of Peace. Allah seems to be more Satanic. Man screws up the values of everything relating to spirituality.

[ECIndHVAC]

Ah, so you're one of those folks who believes in an "abstract hell"--basically just being alone and away from God...

You know, that really doesn't sound so bad...I'd have all the time in the world to read books, all the time in the world...OH NO!!! My glasses are broken!! My glasses are broken!! do do do do do do do (ie Twilight Zone) :)

[Tool-Slinger]

Perhaps if he had joined a church that didn't have, first and foremost, Black Liberation Theology as it's mantra?
Perhaps, if he had joined a church that was first and foremost concerned with the teachings of Christianity?
Perhaps, if the church he had joined and the pastor he counted as his mentor wasn't a Hate American first kind of guy?
Making a mistake in choosing a church in which to worship is totally acceptable. Staying there for upwards of twenty years isn't. He touted this church as his 'entree' into Christianity, used it as his proof he was not a Muslim. And, when that backfired he finally turned his back on them. At least, that's what we are led to believe.
So, where have Barack and family decided to attend church services now? Or, are they just not attending services? Big Christians that they are, I can't see them not being attached to a church.
Or, maybe they're still with the church they joined because of the Rev. Jeremiah Wright?

There are many many questions, and many of those questions are because Obama made such a production of his church, his baptism and the mentoring of the Rev. Wright.
It is the 'Audacity of Hope'.
Exellently put, exellent.

Add to that some strange gaffes[garb photo-op, muslim slip of tounge, and muslim prayer praise which is indefencable] And the doubts about obama being muslim are his own making and even a blind man can see the connection.

No proof he is, but unmistakably plenty of evedince to suggest he might be. Obama is running for president, burden of proof is on him. Concerning a presidential candidate, it should not even be up for rational discussion in the current state of western/islamic affairs.

[Tool-Slinger]

Ah, so you're one of those folks who believes in an "abstract hell"--basically just being alone and away from God...

You know, that really doesn't sound so bad...I'd have all the time in the world to read books, all the time in the world...OH NO!!! My glasses are broken!! My glasses are broken!! do do do do do do do (ie Twilight Zone) :)
Count me in too, ''eternal torture'' theory does not work for me either. I think preachers like to use that ruse to fill the collection plates.... :D

[RoBoTeq]

Pope Robo I
Really? I wasn't aware that popes studied and commented on Islamic history. Silly me, I thought the pope was the bishop of Rome and head of the Roman Catholic Church.

[RoBoTeq]

Ah, so you're one of those folks who believes in an "abstract hell"--basically just being alone and away from God...

You know, that really doesn't sound so bad...I'd have all the time in the world to read books, all the time in the world...OH NO!!! My glasses are broken!! My glasses are broken!! do do do do do do do (ie Twilight Zone) :)
That was a great Twilight Zone. Some cartoon just did a twist on that, but I can't remember which one.

Physical items such as books and eyes would not be part of our spiritual existance, I'm thinking. I am picturing more of an existance where we feel comfort and peace as with loving parents versus feeling anxious and in constant despair because we are not with anyone who cares about us.

good vs bad
happy vs sad
content vs mad etc.

[razorwit]

Answered many times already. I can claim to be Buddhist, but since I speak and act like a Christian, what would people think of my claiming I were Buddhist?

I already noted that.
The point was that it's hypocritical to assume any right to judge a persons faith.
For example, You can claim to be a Christian too, but if you say, marry a Jew, Christian scripture deems you "unequally yoked"(as noted by Bootlen) and thus, it would raise doubts about your devotion to Christ.
Would that in itself mean that you weren't a Christian at all?

[RoBoTeq]

I already noted that.
The point was that it's hypocritical to assume any right to judge a persons faith.
For example, You can claim to be a Christian too, but if you say, marry a Jew, Christian scripture deems you "unequally yoked"(as noted by Bootlen) and thus, it would raise doubts about your devotion to Christ.
Would that in itself mean that you weren't a Christian at all?
:DSince I did marry a Jew, I'm glad I don't adhere to all of booties fundamentalist values, eh?:rolleyes:

[ECIndHVAC]

:DSince I did marry a Jew, I'm glad I don't adhere to all of booties fundamentalist values, eh?:rolleyes:

I'm an atheist who's married to a former Christian missionary. Talk about "unyolked". Good news is, I'm a pretty accomplished liar, just like most HVAC guys.:)

[razorwit]

Perhaps if he had joined a church that didn't have, first and foremost, Black Liberation Theology as it's mantra?
The denomination of the church he joined and it's philosophy are not what is at question here.
What is at question is whether he is a confirmed Muslim or not.
That church you are referring to, while radical, still is a Christian Church, is it not?

Perhaps, if he had joined a church that was first and foremost concerned with the teachings of Christianity? So you assume that Christianity was not a part of the church's teachings?

Perhaps, if the church he had joined and the pastor he counted as his mentor wasn't a Hate American first kind of guy?
Again, that is not the point.
If I belonged to a Catholic Church that was found to have a pedophile as a priest, would you infer that I or the other members did not subscribe to Christianity?

Making a mistake in choosing a church in which to worship is totally acceptable. Staying there for upwards of twenty years isn't. He touted this church as his 'entree' into Christianity, used it as his proof he was not a Muslim. And, when that backfired he finally turned his back on them. At least, that's what we are led to believe.
BINGO! That is what you are led to believe.
He disavowed himself from that church after Wright's hate rhetoric became an issue and it became an issue centalized on the theme of discrediting Obama and not the man who made the statements himself.

So, where have Barack and family decided to attend church services now? Or, are they just not attending services?Big Christians that they are, I can't see them not being attached to a church.
You can't see them not being attached to a church?
Big whoop. I don't believe Obama is concerned with appeasing the masses who pronounce that he"must" attend church. I know many good Christians who do not attend church while those who do attend denounce them because scripture proclaims that they should.
That's his choice and it's a personal choice in my view.

Or, maybe they're still with the church they joined because of the Rev. Jeremiah Wright?
There are many many questions, and many of those questions are because Obama made such a production of his church, his baptism and the mentoring of the Rev. Wright.
It is the 'Audacity of Hope'.
That would be an assertion I'm sure the spin doctors would love for you to keep repeating.:rolleyes:

[razorwit]

:DSince I did marry a Jew, I'm glad I don't adhere to all of booties fundamentalist values, eh?:rolleyes:

There you go with the subliminal name calling again.
Lemme' see ...there's assymancow, razortwit and now fundamentalist

No problem. As usual, free pass for Roboteq.

[ECIndHVAC]

There you go with the subliminal name calling again.
Lemme' see ...there's assymancow, razortwit and now fundamentalist

No problem. As usual, free pass for Roboteq.

Lay off of RoboTeq. He speaks German. Nobody who speaks German can be evil, right?

[acmanko]

Really? I wasn't aware that popes studied and commented on Islamic history. Silly me, I thought the pope was the bishop of Rome and head of the Roman Catholic Church.
thats why what you say would be considered fallible.

[k-fridge]

Clarification...

A little good natured ribbing can be fun. The main difference between ribbing and insults is in how it's intended and received. We poke fun at Robo and he gives it right back, but the core group here knows it's just in fun. ACmanco gets ribbed some too, also in fun. If we can be careful to use smileys to make clear our intent, and also keep our tempers in check, the ARPC will not need to be as restrictive in these matters.

Just be careful and respectful, and I don't think we'll have too many problems.

[RoBoTeq]

There you go with the subliminal name calling again.
Lemme' see ...there's assymancow, razortwit and now fundamentalist

No problem. As usual, free pass for Roboteq.
Purely syntax errors:rolleyes: You got out of my typing errors what "you" were thinking about;)

[RoBoTeq]

thats why what you say would be considered fallible.
I would never claim that my thoughts, words and deeds are ever infalable. I am an imperfect creature who relies on grace to make me perfect.

[mrs reb77]

The denomination of the church he joined and it's philosophy are not what is at question here.
What is at question is whether he is a confirmed Muslim or not.
That church you are referring to, while radical, still is a Christian Church, is it not?
So you assume that Christianity was not a part of the church's teachings?

Again, that is not the point.
If I belonged to a Catholic Church that was found to have a pedophile as a priest, would you infer that I or the other members did not subscribe to Christianity?

BINGO! That is what you are led to believe.
He disavowed himself from that church after Wright's hate rhetoric became an issue and it became an issue centalized on the theme of discrediting Obama and not the man who made the statements himself.

You can't see them not being attached to a church?
Big whoop. I don't believe Obama is concerned with appeasing the masses who pronounce that he"must" attend church. I know many good Christians who do not attend church while those who do attend denounce them because scripture proclaims that they should.
That's his choice and it's a personal choice in my view.

That would be an assertion I'm sure the spin doctors would love for you to keep repeating.:rolleyes:

You know, you assert that we're supposed to believe people when they say they're Christian or otherwise. My post, when not taken out of context, didn't assert anywhere that the Church Obama attended wasn't Christian. I did state however that their first and foremost mantra was Black Liberation Theology.
You don't know me from Adam mr razorwit, if you did you'd know I'm not a church going person, I don't discriminate against those who are. However, when a person holds themselves up as one thing only to be proven to be another--well, can't believe them after that. And, if Mr. Obama and his family were such the Christians (by their own words mind you) before Rev. Wright's 15 minutes of fame then if they aren't attending Church now I find them to be hypocrites on this issue.

I certainly haven't seen a website for a Catholic Church proclaiming them to be "Unashamedly child molesting, unashamedly pedophilic" as the Rev. Wright's church proclaims their Unashamedly Black liberation mantra.
If you have I invite you to post it.

[acmanko]

Clarification...

A little good natured ribbing can be fun. The main difference between ribbing and insults is in how it's intended and received. We poke fun at Robo and he gives it right back, but the core group here knows it's just in fun. ACmanco gets ribbed some too, also in fun. If we can be careful to use smileys to make clear our intent, and also keep our tempers in check, the ARPC will not need to be as restrictive in these matters.

Just be careful and respectful, and I don't think we'll have too many problems. I enjoy the ribbing, but have to say , one must be creative so as not to insult. But I don't believe I can be insulted and if I ever insult anyone, it is not intentional.

[bootlen]

The hypocrisy of non-believers and believers was not what I was alluding to.
The hypocrisy I'm talking about is that Obama is telling you he is a Christian and you are rejecting him but your reasons for that rejection are not given and the reasons that are supplied have been denied by Obama himself and proven to be questionable.

What would Obama have to "say" to you to convince you he is a Christian?

Words alone are not enough. His acts have certainly been just as Christian-like as his counterpart..

I question (QUESTION) BO's Christianity based on his comments about Christianity and his beliefs and convictions. His actions are no better.

[RoBoTeq]

I enjoy the ribbing, but have to say , one must be creative so as not to insult. But I don't believe I can be insulted and if I ever insult anyone, it is not intentional.
I have never felt that anything you posted was intentional.

[glennac]

I have never felt that anything you posted was intentional.

Perhaps this explains why. http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb48/glennac8/ack.jpg:D:)

[razorwit]

You know, you assert that we're supposed to believe people when they say they're Christian or otherwise. My post, when not taken out of context, didn't assert anywhere that the Church Obama attended wasn't Christian. I did state however that their first and foremost mantra was Black Liberation Theology.So tell me...if you didn't assert that Obama's former church wasn't Christian, why do you hold steadfast to the argument that he isn't Christian?
Absolutely nothing out of your quote was taken out of context.
You implied that he was misrepresenting his religious beliefs and that he was trumpeting his Christianity under false pretense.

You don't know me from Adam mr razorwit, if you did you'd know I'm not a church going person, I don't discriminate against those who are. However, when a person holds themselves up as one thing only to be proven to be another--well, can't believe them after that. There you go again.
Please do show how Obama has been "proven" to be anything other than what he has professed to be.
That is nothing more than speculation designed to discredit the man when IMO, there are far better ways to find fault with him regarding his political policies.
It's obvious to me that you're taking part in the spin about Obama's religion because you disagree with Obama's politics.
And just for the record, you know about as much about Obama as I know about you.
Who are you or anyone else on this forum to suggest you know Obama's beliefs better than he?
It's BS and you know it.

And, if Mr. Obama and his family were such the Christians (by their own words mind you) before Rev. Wright's 15 minutes of fame then if they aren't attending Church now I find them to be hypocrites on this issue.Of course you do.
Because you are at odds with Obama's politics and it has nothing to do with his religion. It's simply something his detractors can cling to. I'm not sure why though.
There's lots better material to bring out about him besides a tired set of distortions.


I certainly haven't seen a website for a Catholic Church proclaiming them to be "Unashamedly child molesting, unashamedly pedophilic" as the Rev. Wright's church proclaims their Unashamedly Black liberation mantra.
If you have I invite you to post it.
Huh?:confused: The reference was a comparison. An analogy.
If a church leader is noted to be an extremist, it doesn't necessarily mean that the parishoners who attend that church subscribe to his philosophy.

[razorwit]

I question (QUESTION) BO's Christianity based on his comments about Christianity and his beliefs and convictions. His actions are no better.


Fine.
Which comments offend your Christian sensibilities?
Which beliefs of his are you aware of? Convictions?

All I've ever asked for is some substantive elaboration from those who are critical.
You know? Substance?

[razorwit]

Purely syntax errors:rolleyes: You got out of my typing errors what "you" were thinking about;)

Oh OK robodiq.;)

[glennac]

Razor give us a break. How can you or anyone else say that Obama should be considered a Christian just because he says so. Oh if you think he should be considered a Christian based on his 20 year affiliation with the hate Whitey, hate America "Church".

You have to be kidding. There is nothing Christian ever taught in that hate "Church" and their biggest hero is a Muslim Luis Farrakhan. Yeah explain how that "Church" should be considered Christian other than they say so. It ain't so and they never have preached the "gospel" of Jesus Christ, just hate which is not Christian at all.:rolleyes:

[acmanko]

I thought it was a Church of Christ affiliated church. But most Christians will burn in Hell anyway , so it really matters very little

[razorwit]

Razor give us a break. How can you or anyone else say that Obama should be considered a Christian just because he says so.
Oh, I dunno Glenn. I guess the same way you and everyone who thinks otherwise can say what you say.
No one needs your stamp of approval to be Christian and no one is responsible for how you feel about others.

Oh if you think he should be considered a Christian based on his 20 year affiliation with the hate Whitey, hate America "Church".
Apparently you missed the memo Glenn.
In any church on any given day, you will find leaders and members who represent everything bad about the human race. You are parrotting the same old tired line (which in your case seems to be appropos) of "guilty by association".
That's your view and your judgement, good or bad.
And you'll have to live with when it proves to be wrong as well as right.

You have to be kidding. There is nothing Christian ever taught in that hate "Church" and their biggest hero is a Muslim Luis Farrakhan. Yeah explain how that "Church" should be considered Christian other than they say so. It ain't so and they never have preached the "gospel" of Jesus Christ, just hate which is not Christian at all.:rolleyes:
LOL I'd ask you to tell everyone how you know what they preach in their church and what the collective mindset of their members are but that would be futile, knowing that you have branded all of them as something that they are not.
I view that as bigotry and racism Glenn.

[k-fridge]

Oh OK robodiq.;)
I'm not going to ask how you know that. :eek:


:D Play nice boys.

[glennac]

..............................LOL I'd ask you to tell everyone how you know what they preach in their church and what the collective mindset of their members are but that would be futile, knowing that you have branded all of them as something that they are not.
I view that as bigotry and racism Glenn.

Well let's see here I have seen "videos" of sermons given in this "Church" and I will forgo the description of them but everyone knows what they were about and it wasn't about love lets say. Being that the case anyone who kept going back could easily be judged in my opinion as in your words a "bigot and a racist.

Now if McCain or for that matter any Republican had ever attended a "Christian Identity" church which preached White separatism they would indeed be branded by you as a racist much less not a Christian.

Now I see you are using the liberal's line (bigot and racist) against any and all conservatives who are not PC and call it like they see it. Ie:. Because I called it like it was and most reasonable folks see it as a Black racist church with Black Liberation and hate America as there main points. So you go ahead and live in your little PC world and chose not to see the truth. That's your decision. I choose not to.:rolleyes:

[RoBoTeq]

Oh OK robodiq.;)
:DHow do you think I wound up with the moniker "RoBoTeq" with a "q" in the first place? Somebody trying to get to me when I was RoBoTech by refering to me as RoBoTequila, implying I was a drunk:rolleyes:

My avatar came from an upset HO who was trying to show how stupid I must look at my keyboard:p

Your syntax error spelling my username is pretty good as well. I may think about using that for when I'm on porn sites:eek:

[RoBoTeq]

I'm not going to ask how you know that. :eek:


:D Play nice boys.
Clap on......slap-slap.....clap off.....slap-slap,

[RoBoTeq]

Oh, I dunno Glenn. I guess the same way you and everyone who thinks otherwise can say what you say.
No one needs your stamp of approval to be Christian and no one is responsible for how you feel about others.

Apparently you missed the memo Glenn.
In any church on any given day, you will find leaders and members who represent everything bad about the human race. You are parrotting the same old tired line (which in your case seems to be appropos) of "guilty by association".
That's your view and your judgement, good or bad.
And you'll have to live with when it proves to be wrong as well as right.

LOL I'd ask you to tell everyone how you know what they preach in their church and what the collective mindset of their members are but that would be futile, knowing that you have branded all of them as something that they are not.
I view that as bigotry and racism Glenn.
Please, open your eyes to what everyone you are so ignorantly arguing with has already seen; http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=reverend+wright+youtube+anti+white&ei=UTF-8&fr=hp-pvnb

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUbUBTlmAiA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72B3tUAqpo4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EazOe4n8peM&feature=related

[bootlen]

If I belonged to a Catholic Church that was found to have a pedophile as a priest, would you infer that I or the other members did not subscribe to Christianity?


No. That is unless he preaches pedophilia from the pulpit as Wright preached racial hatred from the pulpit.

You were saying...?

[bootlen]

Fine.
Which comments offend your Christian sensibilities?
Which beliefs of his are you aware of? Convictions?

All I've ever asked for is some substantive elaboration from those who are critical.
You know? Substance?

Offend my Christian sensibilities? You kidding? You forget I'm a KA? My sensibilities, Christian or otherwise, cannot be offended.

Did you watch Saddleback? He said several things which indicate to me he is no Christian. You need me to point them out to you? I was thinking you claimed to be a Christian also.

[mrs reb77]

Well, he can 'claim' but of course none of us will believe him because we're so bigoted. :rolleyes:

I quit wasting my cyber breath...I figured y'all would have too by now.
You are not going to make him see logic, truth or even the American way. Often those who are blind are only directed by their sense of smell and are drawn most powerfully to that which smells the most. ;)

[RoBoTeq]

If raisinwit is making an issue of the title statement :confirmed Muslim, then he/she is correct. There is no confirmation that Obama is Muslim or anything else that I can tell. He is certainly not a Christian judging by his 20 year choice of Black theopropagana church which praises those who praise Allah. He isn't Black, as he claims to be. Just what is Obama and just what does Obama think? There is just no evidence to confirm anything about Obama.

[glennac]

If raisinwit is making an issue of the title statement :confirmed Muslim, then he/she is correct. There is no confirmation that Obama is Muslim or anything else that I can tell. He is certainly not a Christian judging by his 20 year choice of Black theopropagana church which praises those who praise Allah. He isn't Black, as he claims to be. Just what is Obama and just what does Obama think? There is just no evidence to confirm anything about Obama.

With all due respect there robo, I have to disagree. We can confirm that he is a socialist with strong leanings toward communism. His background clearly shows that when you look at it just for a short time.

Now I for one also think he is black because he sure looks Black but that is a personal call on my part and my vision is near perfect but what ever if you want to argue that he is not that's OK. Who is to say his dad wasn't half Arab and half Black?:)

[RoBoTeq]

With all due respect there robo, I have to disagree. We can confirm that he is a socialist with strong leanings toward communism. His background clearly shows that when you look at it just for a short time.

Now I for one also think he is black because he sure looks Black but that is a personal call on my part and my vision is near perfect but what ever if you want to argue that he is not that's OK. Who is to say his dad wasn't half Arab and half Black?:)
Razor is seeking absolute confirmation. We cannot absolutely confirm that Obama is Black just becuase he may look Black to some, to me he looks multiracial. By all means of judging a person's ethnicity, Obama is not Black. At best, Obama is 1/8 Black. Hell, you or I could very well be 1/8 Black and just happen to look more white.

We cannot absolutely confirm Obama as being a Socialist even though most of his actions lean toward Socialism. This is because Obama denies being a Socialist. These are the rules that razor is playing by. I wonder if he/she will stick by these rules when he/she wants to make a point about someone's actions?

[glennac]

...... Hell, you or I could very well be 1/8 Black and just happen to look more white.

I wonder if he/she will stick by these rules when he/she wants to make a point about someone's actions?

Speak for yourself there robo.

He or she or trans has already broken that rule.
"I view that as bigotry and racism Glenn"

So much for him obeying the rules he tells us to use.:rolleyes:

[razorwit]

Well let's see here I have seen "videos" of sermons given in this "Church" and I will forgo the description of them but everyone knows what they were about and it wasn't about love lets say. Being that the case anyone who kept going back could easily be judged in my opinion as in your words a "bigot and a racist.

Now if McCain or for that matter any Republican had ever attended a "Christian Identity" church which preached White separatism they would indeed be branded by you as a racist much less not a Christian.

Now I see you are using the liberal's line (bigot and racist) against any and all conservatives who are not PC and call it like they see it. Ie:. Because I called it like it was and most reasonable folks see it as a Black racist church with Black Liberation and hate America as there main points. So you go ahead and live in your little PC world and chose not to see the truth. That's your decision. I choose not to.:rolleyes:

Liberals aren't the only people who use those terms Glenn.
You've made veiled references in the past that are very telling as far as I'm concerned and while Ididn't say you are a racist and a bigot, I did note that what you posted seems to show as much. From what I can see, you are the type of guy who when he encounters someone with an idealogy that conflicts with yours, you try the old "let's get this guy outta' here so I won't have to listen to him" routine. That's OK though. I understand your dilemma. You're not intellectually equipped to handle differing views.
No problem.

Those videos were condemned by Obama. He has noted that he doesn't believe in that type of hate rhetoric.
He may be the biggest racist on Earth but his Christian faith is not for me to question and not for me to judge.

[razorwit]

If raisinwit is making an issue of the title statement :confirmed Muslim, then he/she is correct. There is no confirmation that Obama is Muslim or anything else that I can tell. He is certainly not a Christian judging by his 20 year choice of Black theopropagana church which praises those who praise Allah. He isn't Black, as he claims to be. Just what is Obama and just what does Obama think? There is just no evidence to confirm anything about Obama.
You questioning my sex now? LOL
What a guy. Hey Robofat; If you want some absolute proof of my sex, I've got it right here for ya' pal.:D

As for Obama, something resembling any proof at all would be better than what you have given everyone.
You show a video of Rev. Wright going off on the same hate filled tirade we have seen a thousand times and that is your proof.
So be it. You don't have any.

[razorwit]

No. That is unless he preaches pedophilia from the pulpit as Wright preached racial hatred from the pulpit.

You were saying...?

What a joke.
Do you agree with every sermon you've heard from your preacher? You agree with everything that comes from the pulpit? You've never heard a bit of prejudice or hate from the pulpit?
If I subscribed to everything that came from the pulpit, I'd be praying away hurricanes and telling people that the Jews were massacred because they didn't accept Christ as saviour.
How many names do you want me to utter to show how incredibly ignorant your example is?
Let's start with Swaggart, Baker, Robertson. Falwell and Jones. Didn't/don't they all preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ??

A follower is judged by God based on his deeds and not the deeds of others.

You were saying?

[razorwit]

Offend my Christian sensibilities? You kidding? You forget I'm a KA? My sensibilities, Christian or otherwise, cannot be offended.

Did you watch Saddleback? He said several things which indicate to me he is no Christian. You need me to point them out to you? I was thinking you claimed to be a Christian also.

Absolutely Yes!
Please do point out those several things to me so that I will know the perfection in the interpretation of your brand of Christian wisdom.

I also will not have you turn this debate into an attack on my faith.
I'm a recovering Catholic if you must know and I've heard you and others of a different denomination(one who is married to a Jew) attack Catholics on this forum as well. As if your faith and belief is somehow better than theirs.

Whatever.

I'm done with you clowns.


And yeah, I'm CHILLBILLY.
And tell ADMIN if they think they can screw with my internet service provider account, let em' try.
SUCKERS.

[glennac]

............Those videos were condemned by Obama. He has noted that he doesn't believe in that type of hate rhetoric.
He may be the biggest racist on Earth but his Christian faith is not for me to question and not for me to judge.

Your a real trip there razor. You think he is going to embrace those videos while he is running for the Presidency? Give us a break. His campaign would be over the minute he admitted to the truth.

Sure he renounced them and renounces every one who he has ever associated with through his whole miserable life. Communists, Black racists, Swindlers, etc. Initially he praised his church and the "reverend" Wright as his second father and he had him marry him to his wife who also is a Black racist.

Explain how you are now an Obama supporter? You once supported McCain and now support Obama again. Your switching a lot here razor. Perhaps you should slow down a little and figure out who you are and who you support.:)

[bootlen]

What a joke.
Do you agree with every sermon you've heard from your preacher?

If it was something I could agree or disagree with, it would not be a sermon. It would be opinion. Have I heard any of my preachers express his opinion. Yes but he made it clear it was his opinion and not Scriptural doctrine. What Wright spoke from his pulpit was not from Scripture and he did not express that it was his own opinion but from the mouth of God.

You agree with everything that comes from the pulpit?

Not every pulpit.

You've never heard a bit of prejudice or hate from the pulpit?

Yes. And I left and never went back.

If I subscribed to everything that came from the pulpit, I'd be praying away hurricanes...

What's wrong with praying away hurricanes? Do you not believe in calling on God's mercy?

...and telling people that the Jews were massacred because they didn't accept Christ as saviour.

I don't know what kind of church you attend but I recommend you leave. Sounds like YOUR preacher has major problems.

How many names do you want me to utter to show how incredibly ignorant your example is?

Once would be enough. I'm still waiting.

Let's start with Swaggart, Baker, Robertson. Falwell and Jones. Didn't/don't they all preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ??


None of those guys are my preacher so I don't rightly know what they may have to say about the issues you have mentioned. But it is my understanding that they have preached the Gospel. I know you are trying to make a point but so far, you haven't.

A follower is judged by God based on his deeds and not the deeds of others.

Really? Are you speaking of the Bema? Or are you speaking concerning salvation?

You were saying?

I wasn't. You were.

[bootlen]

Absolutely Yes!
Please do point out those several things to me so that I will know the perfection in the interpretation of your brand of Christian wisdom.

Not my brand. I don't have a brand. But some things BO said indicate he is not a Christian...or at least does not believe Scripture:

He HOPES he will be allowed in Heaven. A Christian KNOWS without the shadow of a doubt if he is saved.

When life begins is above his pay grade. Scripture is clear...life begins at conception.

These two were pretty much enough although there were others not quite as strong but still telling. I have not watched that interview but once so I don't off hand remember the other details.

I also will not have you turn this debate into an attack on my faith.
I'm a recovering Catholic if you must know and I've heard you and others of a different denomination(one who is married to a Jew) attack Catholics on this forum as well. As if your faith and belief is somehow better than theirs.

Sorry, Chill, I have never attacked a person for being Catholic, or any other religion with the exception of Islam...for all the obvious reasons. Lies, yes. Lousy doctrine, yes. People, no.

I'm done with you clowns.

No, you're not. You love it here and you know it.

And yeah, I'm CHILLBILLY.

GASP! N-a-a-w-w-w! Really?!

And tell ADMIN if they think they can screw with my internet service provider account, let em' try.
SUCKERS.

Admin can read.

Later...

[mrs reb77]

Like that was a real surprise. :rolleyes:

[glennac]

.......Whatever.

I'm done with you clowns.


And yeah, I'm CHILLBILLY.
And tell ADMIN if they think they can screw with my internet service provider account, let em' try.
SUCKERS.


Well, Well, chillbilly who was banned back in March of this year. I checked back on some of your old posts. A dead ringer if I may say so. You believe in global warming, defended Obama like a zealot back then. Yup can't say you have changed any, attitude and all.:)

[NormChris]

Can we all just get along? :)

[Tool-Slinger]

Can we all just get along? :)
CRAPOLIO NORM!!!

6500 POSTS! I suppose yes you can get along,... or are really good at dodging bullets..:D

[RoBoTeq]

You questioning my sex now? LOL
What a guy. Hey Robofat; If you want some absolute proof of my sex, I've got it right here for ya' pal.:D

As for Obama, something resembling any proof at all would be better than what you have given everyone.
You show a video of Rev. Wright going off on the same hate filled tirade we have seen a thousand times and that is your proof.
So be it. You don't have any.
I'm sorry; how would I know your sex? What has CONFIRMED that you are either male or female or something other? What proof do we have that you are a male or female?

May I assume your proof of your sex is a double D?

When you don't share about yourself, you shouldn't get upset when others don't know what you are. You refer to me as RoBoFat. You know you are correct because you have seen photos of me that show that I am fat. You also know that I am either a man or a very ugly woman from those same photos. I must rely on my imagination about you.

[RoBoTeq]

Absolutely Yes!
Please do point out those several things to me so that I will know the perfection in the interpretation of your brand of Christian wisdom.

I also will not have you turn this debate into an attack on my faith.
I'm a recovering Catholic if you must know and I've heard you and others of a different denomination(one who is married to a Jew) attack Catholics on this forum as well. As if your faith and belief is somehow better than theirs.

Whatever.

I'm done with you clowns.


And yeah, I'm CHILLBILLY.
And tell ADMIN if they think they can screw with my internet service provider account, let em' try.
SUCKERS.
Some things never change:rolleyes:.

[RoBoTeq]

Like that was a real surprise. :rolleyes:
The really sad thing is that I kinda liked him until he went back into chill mode.

[RoBoTeq]

Can we all just get along? :)
NO!

[acmanko]

NO! I agree.

[k-fridge]

The really sad thing is that I kinda liked him until he went back into chill mode.

Yeah me too....and I knew it was Chilly.

[acmanko]

when he had his site , he said "kevin" was from virginia. I always thought it was someone different, till K-fridge mentioned the Outer Banks. Oh well.

[mrs reb77]

Imaginary friends are such fun! :D


:eek:

[RoBoTeq]

when he had his site , he said "kevin" was from virginia. I always thought it was someone different, till K-fridge mentioned the Outer Banks. Oh well.
Gimme a break! You were an accomplice from the beginning.

[glennac]

Gimme a break! You were an accomplice from the beginning.

Maybe they should give ace some time in the corner for being such a bad boy.:D:)

[Tool-Slinger]

Absolutely Yes!
Please do point out those several things to me so that I will know the perfection in the interpretation of your brand of Christian wisdom.

I also will not have you turn this debate into an attack on my faith.
I'm a recovering Catholic if you must know and I've heard you and others of a different denomination(one who is married to a Jew) attack Catholics on this forum as well. As if your faith and belief is somehow better than theirs.

Whatever.

I'm done with you clowns.


And yeah, I'm CHILLBILLY.
And tell ADMIN if they think they can screw with my internet service provider account, let em' try.
SUCKERS.
Luck to you chillbilly. I hope you find what you are looking for buddy. I hold no grudges against you at all.

[acmanko]

Gimme a break! You were an accomplice from the beginning.
you can believ what you want to believe, but you are the one who said he lived in Texas and we were on a first name basis. I actually thought "Kevin" was real. AS far as I'm concerned Razor was a liberal conservative like everyone else.:confused:

[glennac]

you can believ what you want to believe, but you are the one who said he lived in Texas and we were on a first name basis. I actually thought "Kevin" was real. AS far as I'm concerned Razor was a liberal conservative like everyone else.:confused:

Dang you missed you flight to Mars again ace. How was your last trip there. You should come down for a landing more often.:D

[acmanko]

Dang you missed you flight to Mars again ace. How was your last trip there. You should come down for a landing more often.:D
Missed it , heck , I just got back. Our Nationalized space agency sent me for free and paid me handsomely when I got off the ship.

[RoBoTeq]

Maybe they should give ace some time in the corner for being such a bad boy.:D:)
Nah, mancow is just entertainment. You can't fault the jester for acting the fool.

[RoBoTeq]

Luck to you chillbilly. I hope you find what you are looking for buddy. I hold no grudges against you at all.
I don't think anyone holds any grudges against chillbilly. It's just aggravating trying to hold a conversation with someone who swings extreme left, then right then out into space. Just ignoring information posted over and over just so you can argue some more is not at all informative and very irritating.

[RoBoTeq]

Missed it , heck , I just got back. Our Nationalized space agency sent me for free and paid me handsomely when I got off the ship.
Well I'll be, mancow finally posted something that I believe:cool: