Can someone compare: S2000 to Burnham MPO 147?

[ItsSortOfYellow]

I'm trying to decide between these two systems.

The first is the S2000 which everyone seems to be very familiar with.

The other is the Burnham MPO 147, and I'd put in a Smart 40 36-gallon indirect hot water heater.
information is here: http://www.burnham.com/PDF/MPO-literature-5-07.pdf


I have a credit at Burnham (Because my current 9 year old boiler died from a manufacturers defect) for $1100 and I'm trying to figure out if it's worth going with a Burnham or if the S2000 is quite a bit more efficient. Or if the S2000 is much better, maybe it's possible to get the S2000 and get the indirect hot water heater from Burnham?

Also is a tank of 36 gallons a good size? Right now we have a boiler with a coil and don't really mind that, but does having an indirect hot water heater mean we'll run out of hot water after 36 gallons, whereas right now we don't really run out (just have a limit of how much we can use at once)?

Last question is, I plan on getting solar hot water panels, and would that hook up nicely to an indirect hot water heater and is the size of the heater important? Also, if anyone is familiar with solar how water, how efficient are they in the winter and summer (Connecticut), would I be better off going to solar how water and electric hot water heater (So that the boiler can remain off the summer)? Or is an oil indirect really that efficient?

Any help would be great.

[ItsSortOfYellow]

Anyone have any thoughts on if the System 2000 is much better?

[da_poppa]

S2000 is more efficient and much quieter than the MPO. The efficiency has been verified by Brookhaven National Labs as part of the development of an efficiency rating system that is accurate for combined heat/hot water boilers.

The 36 gallon indirect is more than sufficient unless you have a large (over 60 gallon) tub. Otherwise it will supply all your needs for clothes, dishes, bodies, etc

[ItsSortOfYellow]

Thanks for the reply. So you think getting the S2000 will be more than $1000 more efficient over the years than the MPO?

Any thoughts on adding solar hot water to the equation down the road? Also, if you have ever installed a System2000, is it drastically different than installing any other boiler? Hopefully I'll be able to use the same chimney etc and don't require many modifications.



S2000 is more efficient and much quieter than the MPO. The efficiency has been verified by Brookhaven National Labs as part of the development of an efficiency rating system that is accurate for combined heat/hot water boilers.

The 36 gallon indirect is more than sufficient unless you have a large (over 60 gallon) tub. Otherwise it will supply all your needs for clothes, dishes, bodies, etc

[da_poppa]

Installation is a piece of cake since most of the near boiler piping and wiring is already done at the factory. If the chimney is in good condition nothing would have to be done unless required by local code.

Solar is starting to gain some attention, mostly for making domestic hot water. At this time I'm not sure you would ever see a payback for the cost of panels and installation. When the EK is used for making hot water it typically uses 1/3 gallon of oil per day.

[beenthere]

Never heard of an S2000

[mlstark]

Never heard of an S2000

Probably talking about a system 2000 by energy kinetics.;)

[flange]

If you are going to seriously consider solar panels do it now. Most solar systems utilize an indirect with two coils for domestic hot water, one tied into the solar panels, with a second for use with a boiler in time of need when there is little or no sun. Indirect storage tanks are not cheap enough to buy twice.

[beenthere]

Probably talking about a system 2000 by energy kinetics.;)
DUH.. LOL

[skippedover]

There is a fundamental difference between the two boilers and each has it's better application. I'm going to interject here my own comment. Burnham has dropped the ball for 10-years running with defective oil fired boilers. I've lost confidencer personally in their ability to produce a reliable oil boiler. Having gotten that off my chest, the Burnham company is locked solidly into cast iron products, as were virtually all manufacturers back in the 1800's and a substantial part of the 1900's. The System 2000 came out back in the late 1970's and was futuristic with it's stainless steel, low mass design.

None of what' I've said regarding cast iron should be interpereted as derogatory against cast iron. But it should only be applied where appropriate at the cost of oil today. If you have radiant heat distribution (radiant floors, wall or ceilings, radiant wall panels or cast iron radiators or baseboard, then you can benefit from the longer cycles of the cast iron boiler. But if you heat with copper finned baseboard or hydroair, cast iron is a waste of good money both for initial purchase and continuing operation. If you started both systems from a cold start, the Burnham would be 10-minutes or more heating the water to a useable temperature of 145F. That's due to the large cast iron block that needs to be heated as well as the total water volume in the boiler. The System 2000 will reach 145F from a cold start in 90 seconds due to the much smaller stainless steel helical boiler and the low water volume, approximately 2.5-gallons. Once the t-stat is satisfied, the Energy Manager on the System 2000 will keep the circulator running for a period of time to extract additonal, residual heat from the boiler during the dwell cycle. On the other hand, the Burnham will turn off and you'll have a large, cast iron boiler full of hot water sitting in the basement. Again, if connected to a radiant load, then that CI boiler of hot water is likely put to good use with the cooler water temps used in radiant and the longer dwell cycles and subsequent longer heating cycles. So when applied properly either one has advantages. Personally, I've got a System 2000 EK-2 in my house and love it. Can barely hear it running and the oil consumption dropped 30% with no other changes the first year it was in. I never owned a Burnham but have installed many and sadly, replaced many that I put in. Hence my distrust of Burnham to be able to produce a good, solid oil boiler. Any manufacturer has the occassional premature failue, that's what warranties are for. But Burnham blew it with the V-7 Series, replaced it with the V-8 Series and that one took the gas pipe too. That was just two strikes and IMO, they're out. I have replaced just one System 2000 that failed prematurely but admittedly, the HO increase the size of his home substantially beyond the original plan and thus forced firing the EK-1 he had to the max and it ran all the time. We replaced it with an EK-2. All the others we've put in have had no problems.

[da_poppa]

The S2000 is not stainless steel, it's mild steel. Stainless is not an appropriate choice for the design.

S2000 will work efficiently with any type of radiation provided it's installed correctly. For radiant systems a buffer tank is used to store heat which is then fed out to the heating zones. The boiler purges down then sits cool until the tank needs to be reheated.

For large water volume systems such as lots of CI rads, a simple primary/secondary setup heats everything uniformly and efficiently and increase the comfort in the house.

I installed about 65 systems starting in the mid 90's until 2001 when I changed gears and gave up installing but still do some service, EK and other. I've seen quite a few Burnhams with cracked sections. Although the V-8 was supposed to have been redesigned, some still crack in the same place.

I did have to replace one EK converter that had been in service for about 10 years. However, the problem turned out to have been caused by the use of non-oxygen barrier tubing for the baseboard runs. We replaced that with copper and eliminated the problem. It's something that would have occured with a CI boiler had one been there instead.

My own EK is just over 11 years old and has needed only routine maintenance since it was installed. I don't know what the fuel savings were since the previous boiler was a tankless coil Burnham that had frozen. (forclosure that had been empty for several years.)

[LakeWhitney]

I have a credit at Burnham (Because my current 9 year old boiler died from a manufacturers defect) for $1100 and I'm trying to figure out if it's worth going with a Burnham or if the S2000 is quite a bit more efficient.

To return to your original question, it seems to have become harder. $1100 is a lot, and the efficiency difference among the very best units is small. But now Burnham itself is being questioned. So, is it worthwhile chasing a Burnham that works? If you had to replace another prematurely, the credit may not be worth the hassle. (If.)

Can you see about getting some cash back instead of credit? Or some other trade that would be a surer trade? (E.g., would a contractor around you want to buy your credit at some discount?) If you reduced that figure, you could more simply choose the best system on its own merits.

The credit tilts the issue in an unfair way. Good luck.

P.s.: electric anything is expensive & inefficient. Let the boiler run the indirect HW.

[johnsp]

As a steel boiler with a common beckett burner with a proprietary controls. The unit can't do outdoor reset.

The flat plate heat exchanger and electric HWH as a storage tank is a cheap
replacement for a true indirect. The MPO is a very easy boiler to clean, The burner is the higher end Beckett NX. I wish a Riello was offered. IMO great boiler. Burnham was late to the table with a 3 pass boiler, but they did a great job. On the indirect: I would look at the ergo max reverse indirect. Has 20 gal of boiler water with the domestic water going through a coil. This 20 gal will make for a great solar buffer tank. It also has an extra set of tapping to pipe in a solar supply. If you were feeding a radiant heating system and a big enough solar system, it might keep the boiler off most of the time!

Don't forget to look at great control package like Tekmar. Burnham re-labels some of their products.

[da_poppa]

System 2000 doesn't need to do ODR in a standard application. It is used with multiple boiler installations and in some commercial apps but the loop is reset not the boiler. Why? With the post purge feature of the system manager it's simply not needed.

For those Riello buffs it is an available option but it does not change the efficiency of the system.

As far as the difference between a PE w/storage tank and an indirect, check the hourly hot water production figures of each. Also consider that the storage tank will have 100% of rated capacity of hot water when the cycle is done. An indirect will have 80% of capacity when the cycle is done.

[System2k]

The S2000 is not stainless steel, it's mild steel. Stainless is not an appropriate choice for the design.

S2000 will work efficiently with any type of radiation provided it's installed correctly. For radiant systems a buffer tank is used to store heat which is then fed out to the heating zones. The boiler purges down then sits cool until the tank needs to be reheated.

For large water volume systems such as lots of CI rads, a simple primary/secondary setup heats everything uniformly and efficiently and increase the comfort in the house.

I installed about 65 systems starting in the mid 90's until 2001 when I changed gears and gave up installing but still do some service, EK and other. I've seen quite a few Burnhams with cracked sections. Although the V-8 was supposed to have been redesigned, some still crack in the same place.

I did have to replace one EK converter that had been in service for about 10 years. However, the problem turned out to have been caused by the use of non-oxygen barrier tubing for the baseboard runs. We replaced that with copper and eliminated the problem. It's something that would have occured with a CI boiler had one been there instead.

My own EK is just over 11 years old and has needed only routine maintenance since it was installed. I don't know what the fuel savings were since the previous boiler was a tankless coil Burnham that had frozen. (forclosure that had been empty for several years.)

The EK converter that was replaced - did system 2000 replace it free of charge? If so - any hastles? I have a failed converter and want to know the best approach to getting it replaced. Thanks

[da_poppa]

It was replaced with no hassles. If memory serves me correctly there was a minimal charge for the converter since it was over 10 years old, plus labor. It's been quite a while since we did it so I don't remember ezact figures.

Your best course of action is to call either an EK dealer or a plumber, heating contractor, etc that you trust and run it through them. They can contact EK and find out exactly what your cost would be.

[System2k]

I really appreciate you letting me know.
Have a Perfect Day!