Is Siemens an open system?

[SFeilden]

We are considering Siemens automation in our building and I was wondering if anyone had any information as to whether Siemens is an open system?

[Chris_Worthington]

NO it is not :eek:

Here is something from a previous post that really helps to define all these terms...

Open is not the opposite of Proprietary.
Open is the opposite of Closed.

"Public Domain" is the opposite of Proprietary.

It is tempting to associate Open with Public because Closed is normally always associated with Proprietary. That is the most common misconception of the industry.

And finally, the third axis that everyone always forgets:
Supported or Unsupported.

An Open System consists of multiple layers. We can talk about open-closed, public-proprietary, supported-unsupported about any of these layers. At the lowest level, we could discuss about the basic physical connectivity of devices (RS-485 is open, public and supported). All the way up to the configuration/programming tools and the front ends. (LNS is open, proprietary, and supported).

Open is a concept that works for todays buildings. It provides more flexibility to the end-user (customer) even when parts of the overall system are proprietary.

We can "bla bla" like this for hours, and indeed we have seen this more than once in this forum. In the end, what really counts is a happy customer. Because a happy customer comes back for more or recommends you to other potential customers. This can be achieved in a myriads of ways with a lot of work, and destroyed very rapidly. Price, Service, Workmanship, process working as specified or better, user-friendliness, etc, is what makes a customer happy or unhappy.

Open or Closed is not as important as the previous sentence.

Key terms in a nutshell:

Open: the ability to mix and match components of a particular layer between different manufacturers.

Closed: only use components of a specific manufacturer

Proprietary: a way to protect your intellectual property by not divulgating key aspects of your products or processes.

Public domain: revealing key aspects of a product or process so that anybody else can do the same.

Supported: a product or process for which you can obtain good support.

Unsupported: a product or process for which you can't obtain good support.

Here a couple more attributes of Open Systems.
- They promote competition by giving a customer choice of manufacturer and product (within limits)
- They facilitate best of breed solutions by making the system more extensible and flexible
- They provide a way for the system to evolve and change along with the customer's requirements and level of sophistication without complete reliance on a locked-in vendor to provide all solutions
- They help to drive down the total cost of ownership for the customer in large part because of the options and choice that they provide over the life of the system.
- They help to promote innovation within the industry because without having a strangle hold forever on the customer vendors now more then ever need a way to differentiate themselves. They can do this by providing better algorithms within their system, more intuitive and feature rich user interfaces, and better service and support to the customer.

[SFeilden]

So what vendors are open?

[Chris_Worthington]

You will better served pursing a protocol, then a manufacturer.

The LON protocol is what your after ;)

I prefer the Honeywell and Distech devices personally, I put them in and they just work :D

[Chris_Worthington]

I would also take a look at Tridium.com for your front end :D

[SFeilden]

Do you think our industry understands what you just shared with me?

If not, why do think they don't?

[Chris_Worthington]

The better "Open" minded ones do :D

They are out there, more and more each day, customers are tiered of being locked into a vendor's product, with no chance of even entertaining another service provider.

Times have changed and IMHO for the better in the past few years, although there is still a few that think if there product was in your building, they own you. They will all but give it away sometimes on the installation and then screw you on the service, when they decide to show up.

You are off to a good start here by asking questions like these ;)

[lost0ne]

Open: the ability to mix and match components of a particular layer between different manufacturers.

If a system supports the ability to utilize different manufactures' equipment at the different levels of it's hiearchy then, by your definition, it is an 'open' system.

Whether BACnet, LON (or even BACnet over LON) is then a matter of personal preference.

So if the SIEMENS system supports BACnet equipment from different manufacturers, why is it not considered an 'open' system?

[nikko]

Do you think our industry understands what you just shared with me?

If not, why do think they don't?

SF - welcome to the forum

To answer your first question, no, Siemens or not open. It's that simple. they can "attach" themselves to open (LonWorks or BACnet) if they choose, but they also have massive restrictions on what you can and cannot do through their "Open Portal".

Functionality this way is heavily restricted and always expensive. The portions of Siemens product that has been developed that allows them to say "We're LonWorks" or "We're BACnet" or "We're Open" is just enough to assure that the salesman isn't lying to you before he draws you back to his dark side. Regardless how they come into your building, with Siemens, you'll end up proprietary and locked in.

To answer your second question, any controls guy who's tired of being led and who has done research will understand that post completely. If they don't, it's because they're still content being led down the corporate path by companies such as Siemens or Big Blue. For some guys, this is fine. For the guys that lead the industry (and challenge it to be better), it's not.

The fact you're here, the fact you're asking and the fact that you're not sure if you understand Chris' post or not speaks well to the information journey you're on. If you don't understand that post now, use it as a milepost to see how you're doing. No worries - the light will come on :)

Nikko

[freddy-b]

Open: the ability to mix and match components of a particular layer between different manufacturers.

If a system supports the ability to utilize different manufactures' equipment at the different levels of it's hiearchy then, by your definition, it is an 'open' system.

Whether BACnet, LON (or even BACnet over LON) is then a matter of personal preference.

So if the SIEMENS system supports BACnet equipment from different manufacturers, why is it not considered an 'open' system?

Yep, thats the sales pitch line! Then reality sets in, and you take it in the ass for years!

[Gomer3353]

Chris,
Excellent explanation.

Everyone,
You can see why a smooth talking saleman can twist this all around so the customer thinks your product is the most proprietary system ever marketed when his is.

What should mean the most is who has the best qualified people installing and servicing the product that you are going to live with for the forseable future. The qizmos all do what they are designed to do if properly applied and programmed. I can make a controller sing or really lay an egg, which has nothing to do with open or closed, proprietary or not. I agree tha Lon and Bacnet has improved our industry though.
Gomer

[Chris_Worthington]

I Believe, Osiyo?? was the original poster to the original thread that I cannot seem to locate, in regards to the definitions. I liked that explanation so much I copied it and saved it to me hard drive :D

So as I originally stated,,,,

"Here is something from a previous post that really helps to define all these terms..."

I wish I could, but I cannot take the credit for that one.

Chris

[SFeilden]

OK. Lot of information. Agreed, asking questions and participating in discussions is definately the right course of direction.

Yet, if you were building a new building on a new "green-field" campus as my manager is calling it, what top 3 systems or vendors would you choose?

[Chris_Worthington]

Tridium front End hands down !!!! This will give you anything and everything you could ever imagine, PERIOD.........

Devices, for me once again, would be Distech and Honeywell, with Tridium Jace I/O modules running the plants ;)

[simsd]

Tridium front end hands down......but they won't.
They will go with Siemens despite your best efforts.

Go with a proprietary system - it's better for you to be locked in - less thinking involved.

You're wasting your time and ours. We have these discussions over and over again, and despite all of our best efforts nothing ever changes.

Top 3 to your manager will mean the largest 3. So of the largest 3 Siemens would be the way to go. Johnson would be good to - because by the time you spend hundreds of thousands (maybe millions) of dollars and are sooo pissed off at them, you might be able to find an outside vendor that you can spend thousands more with and put in an FX-40 front end.

Has everyone forgotten chet1508?

But if you really want ultra-proprietary go for Trane or Andover. Just think how wonderful it will be to know that you can only ever use the same company forever no matter how much you can't stand them (also true with Siemens, but they don't seem to piss off as many people - they actually do a pretty good job).

So after my little rant, how many of you don't believe me. If this is a large place, which it sounds like, they will go with whatever is worst.

Wait, better yet, someone will sell them on BACnet and they will think they can put anyone's stuff in - only to find out they can't - "but the guy told me it was BACnet - don't I just wave my hands and everything starts to work"?

[exwtk]

Manufacturers of building controls will claim to be "Bacnet compliant", "use open protocol", "support LON works" etc .. etc... but you will have to use their equipment in order to utilize these features.

And it all makes sense ...it is just not in their best interest to be truly "open" because it hurts the bottom line and their market share.
Much better to claim to be "open" and find people that believe you and buy your product.

Then once you got them by the balls...............their hearts and minds will soon follow

[picnik]

In my experience, Siemens (US) tactic is to say "yes we can do BACNet/Lon/etc" to get on the tender list then turn round and say they'll give a price reduction if you switch to their proprietory protocol. They just give the whole concept of openness lip service really. So I would say if they put in thier BACNet controllers they are open (to a certain extent - see above) but make sure the accountants don't swap it just prior to install ;)

Another thing to look at is who is able to support the system you put in afterwards. If your not happy with the service your getting, can you switch? Here in the UK, Apogee is sold but by only the one company, and then after, only they have the ability (through strong arm tactics from Siemens) to service the sites. Not sure how it works over there. Are there comanies other than Siemens that can fully support the system once its installed? Here Trend (Novar) is strong as there are alot of companies able to support the system. I suppose Tridium is a bit like that in the states.

Being tied in to one manufacturer in my view isn't all that bad (they all pretty much work the same after all). In some ways I prefer it as you don't get a mish mash of controllers as that means only a smaller pool of engineers can support it. The standard of the install is the critical thing. Find a company that takes pride in its work and is interested in forming a long term relationship, not just to slap it in and run. And make sure if they do a bad job you can kick them out and get someone else in...

[dapper]

Engineers????? the average engineer can barely support his own head atop his shoulders never mind any type of control system.

[sysint]

Approach them with the Army Corps of Engineers specification for building control systems and see what they think of that...

I think at this point it's too late for your investigation unless you are THE guy making the decisions.

[simsd]

I would like to thank exwtk, picnik, dapper and sysint for basically finishing off my rant. Especially sysint's part about

"I think at this point it's too late for your investigation unless you are THE guy making the decisions". That's what was going through my mind when I wrote it.

So once again we're wasting our time and breath, so let's end this thread now and move on.

Sorry SFeilden, but since you're not the decision maker, just sit back and watch what you get. Don't bother wasting your time anymore.

It's funny - nobody has disagreed with me yet.

[freddy-b]

Manufacturers of building controls will claim to be "Bacnet compliant", "use open protocol", "support LON works" etc .. etc... but you will have to use their equipment in order to utilize these features.

And it all makes sense ...it is just not in their best interest to be truly "open" because it hurts the bottom line and their market share.
Much better to claim to be "open" and find people that believe you and buy your product.

Then once you got them by the balls...............their hearts and minds will soon follow

WOW....Good Post.

[freddy-b]

Actually a bunch of good ones. Everyone is goin "Freddy" on the sh*tbags.:D

I like it.

[Chris_Worthington]

:D

[shifferbrains]

I have to admit I am a bit jaded. I have only worked with proprietary systems. When I started working on DDC systems there was no open system protocol. Yes that was a while back. In the twenty or so years that I have worked with DDC systems it has mostly been on Siemens systems which also used to called such names as MCC Powers, Landis & Gyr Powers and finally Siemens Controls. I have taken out other systems such as Robert Shaw, Andover and CSI and replaced them with Siemens. Ok so much for the resume.

I think if you are looking for a reliable control system that is extremely flexible and fairly easy to deal with on the user level then you aren’t going to do much better than Siemens Controls. If I were going to choose which controls system to install in a building I would choose Siemens. With that said..... What is the down side? Siemens seems to be a bit more expensive than other controls manufactures. When you buy a Siemens system you also buy the Siemens attitude, which means they want to own you. Open protocol? (not something I have really been concerned about) Siemens open protocol really isn’t all that open. But they do sell a line of LON based controllers which work within their system. They also support Bacnet. They also have a bunch of system integration products that act as gateways to digitally controlled HVAC equipment which only cost 10 grand apiece. To me all of this openness isn’t all that important. Like I said mostly all I have worked with is proprietary controls.

The best way to work with a company like Siemens is to know there product as well as they do. When you have an intimate knowledge of their system they aren’t likely to sell you a snow job. If you can have at least one person on staff who has the technical ability to service, repair, install and program there controls it puts you in the position of not having to rely on them for everything. At that point even though you might have the ability to service your own controls it is best to have a contract with the controls company for things like system upgrades and software updates and maybe a once a month visit from there service tech to provide you with technical insights that you may have over looked. They will be more responsive to your demands if they know you have the ability to look over their shoulder and audit their work. I know for a fact that this approach works with Siemens and it promotes more of a partnership between you the customer and Siemens to keep your system running smoothly.

[simsd]

Okay shiff,

I'll cut YOU some slack because you're a good guy......but remember where you came from.....a phenomenally political beast (if not thee MOST political beast in the state - oh wait only second to that one up north in the East Bay). Any changes would have been huge. Also to try and train and/or retrain people on THAT campus would be a daunting task.

Anyhow, I do agree with you that if I had to pick a proprietary one it would be Siemens.

[GONFISHN]

Hopefully after the storm (GUSTAV) you'll still have a building to put it in. :(

[GONFISHN]

If this is a design/build job, not plan/spec shoot me an e-mail. We do work in the N.O area

[rolo]

try the dms made by robertshaw

[jogas]

I couldn't post this yesterday morning due to server maintenance, but better late than never.
In my world :
Open = Interoperability, NOT interchangeability.
Closed = "By the balls" relationship with whichever system is installed.
(Unless you find another controls contractor who can service the
closed system).
I worked on the Staefa product for years, which was a closed system (legacy systems).
We now do Tridium and have never been busier. Tridium can integrate (read and write to) 99% of the control systems out there. The overall capability, support, and flexibility of the system amazes me. It's nice to know we can integrate to LON, BACNET, MODBUS, etc.,. I never get into any pissing matches about which protocol (LON or BACNET) is better, because it doesn't matter to me. We're about to start a large campus job and I chose BACNET only because there are some Trane BCU's we'll integrate to. Coming from that closed world, you have no idea what it feels like not having to call up the same people asking if or how we can do something, already knowing it'll be expensive.
BTW, Tridium is coming out with there own device level controller called Sedona. There is already a Belimo/Sedona actuator/controller being developed. I can't wait.
I don't mean to make this a pro-Tridium rant. I'm just describing my previous and present experience.
BTW, you mentioned "green campus". Check out the ease of Tridium's data collection and exporting capabilities verses ANY of those closed systems. With a Green campus (LEED certified?), data collection should be one of the the top priorities and capabilities of the control system you (or whoever) chooses.
My 2 cents,
jogas

[jgraham]

You beat me to it jogas. I install/program/commission Staefa TALON systems. I love the fact it doesn't matter what protocol it is, I can talk with it. Our own office is a Gold LEED certified. We controls lighting via lon, monitor generator/ATS via modbus, rooftop via BACnet IP, door access via AX cuz they have an AX front end as well (Novus). To me that is an "open" system, the ability to talk any protocol with any manufacturer.
To SF, I wouldn't go straight to Siemens. Not saying "Go to us!", but definitely go to a company that will give you what you want without saying "you have to use all our Siemens parts."

[Chris_Worthington]

:D

[ACCMan]

I couldn't post this yesterday morning due to server maintenance, but better late than never.
In my world :
Open = Interoperability, NOT interchangeability.
Closed = "By the balls" relationship with whichever system is installed.
(Unless you find another controls contractor who can service the
closed system).
I worked on the Staefa product for years, which was a closed system (legacy systems).
We now do Tridium and have never been busier. Tridium can integrate (read and write to) 99% of the control systems out there. The overall capability, support, and flexibility of the system amazes me. It's nice to know we can integrate to LON, BACNET, MODBUS, etc.,. I never get into any pissing matches about which protocol (LON or BACNET) is better, because it doesn't matter to me. We're about to start a large campus job and I chose BACNET only because there are some Trane BCU's we'll integrate to. Coming from that closed world, you have no idea what it feels like not having to call up the same people asking if or how we can do something, already knowing it'll be expensive.
BTW, Tridium is coming out with there own device level controller called Sedona. There is already a Belimo/Sedona actuator/controller being developed. I can't wait.
I don't mean to make this a pro-Tridium rant. I'm just describing my previous and present experience.
BTW, you mentioned "green campus". Check out the ease of Tridium's data collection and exporting capabilities verses ANY of those closed systems. With a Green campus (LEED certified?), data collection should be one of the the top priorities and capabilities of the control system you (or whoever) chooses.
My 2 cents,
jogas

Aren't you installing a "window"?
If the existing hardware has a problem are you replacing it with a Tridium controller? Can you re-program the base controller through Tridium?
Are you eliminating the need for the (Trane, Carrier, Johnson, Honeywell, KMC) control technician with the product?
Seems to me two groups have a good grasp on the Customer.

[freddy-b]

Aren't you installing a "window"?
If the existing hardware has a problem are you replacing it with a Tridium controller?
You can replace it with whatever Vendor /Protocal you want.

Can you re-program the base controller through Tridium? Depends, some yes, some no.


Are you eliminating the need for the (Trane, Carrier, Johnson, Honeywell, KMC) control technician with the product?
Once again, it depends on the generation of stuff they have. But, eliminating them is the goal...yes.


Seems to me two groups have a good grasp on the Customer
Not further from the truth
Tridium gives them the flexibility to go with whoever they please, Job bids get more competitive, because no one vendor is locked in, due to proprietary reasons.

[jogas]

You can replace it with whatever Vendor /Protocal you want.
Depends, some yes, some no.


Once again, it depends on the generation of stuff they have. But, eliminating them is the goal...yes.


Not further from the truth
Tridium gives them the flexibility to go with whoever they please, Job bids get more competitive, because no one vendor is locked in, due to proprietary reasons.

Freddie,
Well said, as usual.
jogas

[Chris_Worthington]

AGREED :D

[Gomer3353]

Not further from the truth
Tridium gives them the flexibility to go with whoever they please, Job bids get more competitive, because no one vendor is locked in, due to proprietary reasons.

Lets say I am small controls contractor that has a gee whizz bang controller I want to bid on this Tridium front end job. Do I need to hire one of you to program my controller into the front end when I get the job or are you going to give me the software and train me to do it myself?

Now I am not trying to get flamed here, just don't understand the unabashed disdain for other control companies.

[Chris_Worthington]

Not further from the truth
Tridium gives them the flexibility to go with whoever they please, Job bids get more competitive, because no one vendor is locked in, due to proprietary reasons.

Kewl, you agree then :D

[freddy-b]

Lets say I am small controls contractor that has a gee whizz bang controller I want to bid on this Tridium front end job. Do I need to hire one of you to program my controller into the front end when I get the job or are you going to give me the software and train me to do it myself?
If you bid a a job with a Tridium "front end" and get it, I think it would be prudent to have a avenue to take. If you do it yourself or sub it out. You can get them in several branded packages from distributers.

Can I go to a distributor and grab a BCU or Summit? Can I land a JCI N2comm trunk directly to a BCU, have a lon trunk with JCI, Distech, Honeywell and Trane Comm 5 controllers, with a Bacnet integration , and a modbus integration all chugging away at the same time on a single BCU?
Smart Customers love it and wont have it any other way.


Now I am not trying to get flamed here, just don't understand the unabashed disdain for other control companies No disdain, the technology has moved on...thats all.

[Gomer3353]

Can I go to a distributor and grab a BCU or Summit? Can I land a JCI N2comm trunk directly to a BCU, have a lon trunk with JCI, Distech, Honeywell and Trane Comm 5 controllers, with a Bacnet integration , and a modbus integration all chugging away at the same time on a single BCU?


No, that is not how Trane markets thier product, right or wrong, I am sure is in the eye of the beholder. And yes you can hook up all that stuff except the JCI N2.

Sorry I just couldn't take it anymore. You have your point of view, I respect that, how about respecting mine. I'm not posting negative things about you product every chance I get.
Lets agree to disagree, you like your stuff I like mine, fair enough.

[freddy-b]

No, that is not how Trane markets thier product, right or wrong, I am sure is in the eye of the beholder. And yes you can hook up all that stuff except the JCI N2.

Sorry I just couldn't take it anymore. You have your point of view, I respect that, how about respecting mine. I'm not posting negative things about you product every chance I get.
Lets agree to disagree, you like your stuff I like mine, fair enough.

Fair enough.


Reread slims post(s) , he has basically called everyone a idiot at one time or another, has set a precedence of maliciously giving destructive info to the board, has flat-out said he does not like people, customers are mindless automatons or something to that affect, and pretty much comes around when he wants info "by his own elitist standard" that he is not qualified for. Other than that, he is a great guy.

[simsd]

Fair enough.


Reread slims post(s) , he has basically called everyone a idiot at one time or another, has set a precedence of maliciously giving destructive info to the board, has flat-out said he does not like people, customers are mindless automatons or something to that affect, and pretty much comes around when he wants info "by his own elitist standard" that he is not qualified for. Other than that, he is a great guy.

Uhhhh Freddy-B

are you addressing me?

[freddy-b]

Uhhhh Freddy-B

are you addressing me?

Not you.:D Why... you feeling guilty about something?

[simsd]

I must be.....feeling guilty about something....then who are you talking about?

[freddy-b]

Sorry, Me and Gomers conversation kind of switched threads.
http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=180763

[sysint]

You beat me to it jogas. I install/program/commission Staefa TALON systems. I love the fact it doesn't matter what protocol it is, I can talk with it. Our own office is a Gold LEED certified. We controls lighting via lon, monitor generator/ATS via modbus, rooftop via BACnet IP, door access via AX cuz they have an AX front end as well (Novus). To me that is an "open" system, the ability to talk any protocol with any manufacturer.
To SF, I wouldn't go straight to Siemens. Not saying "Go to us!", but definitely go to a company that will give you what you want without saying "you have to use all our Siemens parts."Are you John? -- Look I like what Tridium is doing to solve an issue. However, it's really putting the finger in the dam. I think it's still better to move any device with a different protocol to the quickest way to a standard platform. What I mean is that if the device itself can translate to a common protocol, you flip the switch. Or, you add a translation device to get it on common ground or that translation device is on that network with a connection to "X"/IP to satisfy requirements.

I have a CEA-709 bias because it's the best protocol out there for independence. I was just visiting a company that tests bacnet and CEA-709 products because they have products for both protocols. In the testing lab what are they testing for compatibility and communciation? Only the bacnet products. Why? They don't need to test the Lonworks products, it's not an issue.

[ACCMan]

My questions are based from a customers point of view with no bashing intended.
The company I am with is currently looking at the Vykon Integrator Agreement.
With that said, and knowing the goal is to eventually replace the "closed system", we have customers that are paying for Tridium support and paying for support for their base systems due to the programs residing in the controllers. If the older style controller is not BACNet or Lon capable, don't you still require the "closed system" vendor to program without replacing the controller?
Thanks for the response, I am trying to verify the information I am getting from "Sales Types" trying to sell one of the many "flavors" of control systems.

[simsd]

If it's older closed and BACnet, you will need the programming capabilities from that specific manufacturer.

There are usually "wizards" available for the LON based controllers that can be opened in the JACE and are generally the same as the program from the manufacturer.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't know of any BACnet manufacturer doing this yet - or if it's even possible,

[sysint]

Not possible with bacnet -- although a manufacturer is trying.

[sysint]

My questions are based from a customers point of view with no bashing intended.
The company I am with is currently looking at the Vykon Integrator Agreement.
With that said, and knowing the goal is to eventually replace the "closed system", we have customers that are paying for Tridium support and paying for support for their base systems due to the programs residing in the controllers. If the older style controller is not BACNet or Lon capable, don't you still require the "closed system" vendor to program without replacing the controller?
Thanks for the response, I am trying to verify the information I am getting from "Sales Types" trying to sell one of the many "flavors" of control systems. I have thoughts about this. Even if you have a bacnet system into Tridium you still need the manufacturers software for configuration. So, really if there is a less expensive platform that crosses LON/Bacnet with no licensing that's good. It's even better IMO if it's LNS LON because then you don't worry about getting the manufacturers software because you simply have plugins available.

[simsd]

sysint

Thanks for clearing up and concurring. I too, figured LON was the only way to go with the wizards.

[ACCMan]

I have thoughts about this. Even if you have a bacnet system into Tridium you still need the manufacturers software for configuration. So, really if there is a less expensive platform that crosses LON/Bacnet with no licensing that's good. It's even better IMO if it's LNS LON because then you don't worry about getting the manufacturers software because you simply have plugins available.

Its sounds like my analogy of the "window" is very close to being correct when the Tridium system is used on an older generation "closed" system.
My point being, there are still two vendors charging the customer for certain types of problems.
I do understand the overall goal of upgrading components until the older system is replaced by newer "open" components.

Thanks for the input.
As for the licensing, the contractor pays and so does the customer for all of the systems I am familiar with, even with Tridium.

[simsd]

ACCman,

Yes your analogy is somewhat true, but the other issue is that customers think that if they buy BACnet instead of LON, that they still have an open system. Yes it's open in the sense that it can connect to things - but it's not open in the sense that you still need the vendor's software and cables to do any programming.

It's not the same case with LON as the manufacturer's give you the "wizard" or "programs" that can be accessed through the JACE.

So - BACnet - two companies needed.
LONworks - one company only as long as the wizards are available.

[Chris_Worthington]

Gotta love LON, eh?

I do :D

[sysint]

ACCman,

Yes your analogy is somewhat true, but the other issue is that customers think that if they buy BACnet instead of LON, that they still have an open system. Yes it's open in the sense that it can connect to things - but it's not open in the sense that you still need the vendor's software and cables to do any programming.

It's not the same case with LON as the manufacturer's give you the "wizard" or "programs" that can be accessed through the JACE.

So - BACnet - two companies needed.
LONworks - one company only as long as the wizards are available.Like I stated (I think) earlier, bacnet requires testing for compatibility on a far greater scale than LON does. TThat being said nobody is really using Lonmark alarming, scheduling, and trending. (there are reasons for this) However, bacnet has an edge with their AST functions, but really they design it around distinct subsystems that really are a crap shoot for compatibility.... nowhere near refined nor ever will be. Why do you think H-well, JCI and Siemens like bacnet so much? Why do you think the ASHRAE cronies like it so much? It keeps them in business.

Which is probably why it seems Echelon is not keeping up on LNS. It's mature, it works significantly better than bacnet and it's not making a whole lot of money supporting the platform.

That being said, I think from device to front end there are many LON options and even some that don't require front end SOFTWARE or HARDWARE licensing. That's something to think about...seriously.

[jgraham]

Are you John? -- Look I like what Tridium is doing to solve an issue. However, it's really putting the finger in the dam. I think it's still better to move any device with a different protocol to the quickest way to a standard platform. What I mean is that if the device itself can translate to a common protocol, you flip the switch. Or, you add a translation device to get it on common ground or that translation device is on that network with a connection to "X"/IP to satisfy requirements.

I have a CEA-709 bias because it's the best protocol out there for independence. I was just visiting a company that tests bacnet and CEA-709 products because they have products for both protocols. In the testing lab what are they testing for compatibility and communciation? Only the bacnet products. Why? They don't need to test the Lonworks products, it's not an issue.

Do I know you Sysint? I can say I agree that if you can get everything on one protocol it's better. I guess I was thinking in terms of head-end. Tridium will talk with pretty much anything, so to me that's open. If we're talking Siemens parts, (raptors, predators, programmable stats), the new BACnet line requires their special software. That would, I guess, be considered closed.
I personally love Lon. I'm doing two fairly large sites using pretty much all BACnet and I want my Lon back.

[jogas]

I personally love Lon. I'm doing two fairly large sites using pretty much all BACnet and I want my Lon back.

As I'm about to start a large BACnet job, what issues are you running into?
jogas

[jgraham]

The big thing is when you discover points from the controller and they are generically named. Then you have to track down the point list, which usually involves talking to the factory who doesn't want to just give up their list on a whim.

[Chris_Worthington]

Nobody knows it ALL. That's why we share.

:D:D:D

[Gomer3353]

The big thing is when you discover points from the controller and they are generically named. Then you have to track down the point list, which usually involves talking to the factory who doesn't want to just give up their list on a whim.

This bring up one of my pet peaves, point naming. Any way what I have found is not that they don't want to give it up but it is finding the guy in the backroom of the basement that programmed it. No one at the main office even knows his name or how to contact him. He is the guy that wrote the code and is such a circuit head that he has no concept of the real world and how the data gets read or understood by mere mortals. JMHO
Gomer

[Chris_Worthington]

This bring up one of my pet peaves, point naming

Mine too !!!!!

I had a guy (that I work with?) send me a job/station wanting me to help out with the front end here recently,,, and ohhh boy.......

What does temp 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, etc, etc, etc,,,,,,,,,,, mean anyways????????

point XYZ123 ????

Fan 1, 2, 3, 4 in the same app?

No ATC'S and could you provide some graphics and a front end for this????

bahahhahahahahahahaha,,,, NO !

Good God, good point!

[jgraham]

This bring up one of my pet peaves, point naming. Any way what I have found is not that they don't want to give it up but it is finding the guy in the backroom of the basement that programmed it. No one at the main office even knows his name or how to contact him. He is the guy that wrote the code and is such a circuit head that he has no concept of the real world and how the data gets read or understood by mere mortals. JMHO
Gomer

Amen and preach on brother Gomer!

[sysint]

...I can say I agree that if you can get everything on one protocol it's better. I guess I was thinking in terms of head-end. Tridium will talk with pretty much anything, so to me that's open. If we're talking Siemens parts, (raptors, predators, programmable stats), the new BACnet line requires their special software. That would, I guess, be considered closed.
I personally love Lon. I'm doing two fairly large sites using pretty much all BACnet and I want my Lon back....Yep I think you do. I'd like to talk.
Anyway, I like things more distributed. If you are going with a bacnet front I say gate the LON. That way you aren't left out when you want some front end flexibility. Taking multiple protocols and integrating them to a single front poses more situations than I like to see.

[sysint]

The big thing is when you discover points from the controller and they are generically named. Then you have to track down the point list, which usually involves talking to the factory who doesn't want to just give up their list on a whim. Don't forget also that with CEA-709 you have things like SNVT_switch which end up being two variables in bacnet.

[jgraham]

...Yep I think you do. I'd like to talk.
Anyway, I like things more distributed. If you are going with a bacnet front I say gate the LON. That way you aren't left out when you want some front end flexibility. Taking multiple protocols and integrating them to a single front poses more situations than I like to see.

Hit me up. My addy is in my profile.

[ALIREZA]

I WANT TO CONNECT ALTIVAR212 TO APOGEE FLN P1 BUT I CAN'T DO IT ,
PLEASE ADVISE ME

[ALIREZA]

WHAT'S APPLICATION NUMBER ALTIVAR212 FOR ADDING TO TEC DEFINITION FLN APOGEE ?
ALTIVAR212 IS A AC INVERTER FROM SCHNEIDER ELECTRIC BRANDS .

[ALIREZA]

I NEED TO BUY POWER OPEN PROCESSOR PN: 652-001 .

[hybridshocker74]

Go JCI.....

[hybridshocker74]

I NEED TO BUY POWER OPEN PROCESSOR PN: 652-001 .

MBC OP's are being phased out... Good Luck.