Whats REALLY wrong with the economy?

[gtt]

Here is quote from a friend that lives down "Cracker's" way, but tours the east a coast and mid west annually as an indie entertainer:


I'm not so sure that I would be as aware of this, had I not been touring the last few years and seen for myself the ruined mills and factories and the farms and other businesses that people have just had to walk away from. It's not as readily apparent in Port Charlotte, which has never had any industry -- it's always been pretty much a service economy. Sure, the contractors and others in the housing industry are hurting, but it's not in your face, the way that an abandoned steel mill is. I always knew that the housing construction industry wouldn't be self-sustaining, though I do feel a little bad for the people who were not that far-sighted. The real tragedy, in my opinion, is that there's nothing else for them to do! That, and the fact that some of the really unscrupulous builders have taken plumbers and A/C folks down with them, owing them tens of thousands of dollars when they decided to declare bankruptcy on their business -- while protecting their personal assets, of course. How can you look your neighbor in the eye after screwing him like that?

This is a view from OUTSIDE the HVAC industry. Some, like my friend here, are perceptive enough to see the trends.

[dougvhvac]

Sorta makes you wonder - I've always thought the big 'three' that everyone needs universally were; food, shelter and clothing. We grow the food, produce the clothing, and hopefully build the housing. Everything else is a purchase of choice - it might be something we want, but don't actually have to have. Maybe what would sell now is the housing equivalent to a Honda? Leave out the a/c (added later), no d/w, disposal, painted cabinets, skip the w/w carpet - basically the house my folks bought in the 50's, post WWII.

[wescoman]

A. No leadership and corruption in Washington, D.C.
B. Wall Street greed
C. DullMart shoppers who cause U.S. jobs to be moved overseas.
D. Debtor nation

[timebuilder]

What's wrong with our economy? In a nutshell, too many of us a) refuse to compete as citizens and workers and b) expect the government to make it all better.

In longer form:

We decided in the sixties (and for decades to come) that we wanted all kinds of things in the way of new labor laws. New gender and racial discrimination laws, the ADA, harassment, and a dozen other things. All have the net effect of added costs thorough the legal processes used to enforce and punish based on these new laws. We created a "lawsuit lottery" where one can hope to be set for life with a big lawsuit award. Who pays for all of it? The consumer, because the consumer pays ALL costs.

We can no longer afford to make the things we made because of the added costs associated with American labor. If it weren't for robots made in Japan and Germany, Detroit would already have no cars being built.

We shifted our manufacturing choices (made by consumers, based on price) to societies where these costs do not exist. Are there any harassment or gender bias lawsuits in Malaysia? Nope. We then benefit from being able to purchase our goods at a lower cost.

Most of our mistakes have come from really good intentions, but the law of unintended consequences is always in play. We never imagined that we would price ourselves out of the production pool, but much of what we have done has accomplished just that.

We have a lot of exports, but automation (machines never sue anyone) is responsible for most of that. For every vacant factory you see here, you can bet there are three new factories in China, where once again, there are no lawsuits. All they have in China are a lot of people who are GRATEFUL to have a job, and not spending their money to go see movies that attempt to demean their leadership, like Fahrenheit 911.

In the recent months, people decided on their own to sign for home loans that provided for changing interest rates. No one held a gun to their heads. Now, we will spend billions to help these poor decision makers. Your money, my money. All to help the stupid. I'm willing to help the stupid through faith based outreach, but not through the Congress. They are stupid enough, as it is.

In the end, the economy is what it is because we have enough good intentions that turned out to be not-so-good, and enough people making poor choices, including the Congress, that we have the problems we have.

Why is our economy in this position? It's us, and our unwillingness to elect the people with enough backbone to not pander and enough vision to see the intentions of the Founders.

Soon, we will have another opportunity to begin to fix this. We can try Marxism, which has already failed, or we can try what is needed to meet the Chinese on the playing field of capitalism. I have reported, you decide.

[HVAC9900]

Gotta totally disagree with you timebuilder on this one:

"We shifted our manufacturing choices (made by consumers, based on price) to societies where these costs do not exist. Are there any harassment or gender bias lawsuits in Malaysia? Nope. We then benefit from being able to purchase our goods at a lower cost."

WE? I didn't ask or want NAFTA, or that horrific agreement with china(done by bill clinton and a Republican congress)-That my friend, is what has shipped our jobs overseas.

It isn't my fault,nor any other citizens.BC and the repubs were"encouraged" by multi national corps(the big one that comes to mind is suprisingly located in arkansas).

Had these "open the flood gates,to hell with US manufacturing jobs" agreements never been allowed, the economy and the country would be a lot stronger than they are today.

Over time,and in a gradual way,the jobs market would have eventually evolved.This would have been much better than the ill concieved trash the elected reps spewed.
Do you remember all those promises about "retraining".BS!

[timebuilder]

Sorry, that's all incorrect.

Here are the facts:

Both parties are ELECTED by Americans. We choose all of our legislators. In my lifetime, no party has held a "super majority" capable of passing laws without the consent of the minority party.

Both parties receive support from corporations. When you hear a D or an R criticize a company, the chances are very good that they have some sort or investment and political support form that Co. We could find it impossible to find a legislator without Exxon stock, for example.

Almost ALL Americans are invested in those corporations, via pensions and stock mutual funds.

NAFTA and GATT would have NO impact on the shifting of production to the pacific rim. If we refused to buy those goods, by paying more for the goods we are willing to purchase, we could be producing all of those goods HERE.

No "flood gates" were ever opened by any entity other than the consumer. All of those Camaros and Firebirds were built in Canada long before the first word of NAFTA was put to paper. Our labor costs were unaffected in the 60's and 70's because the pacific rim had not yet ramped up their ability to produce what we want to buy. Now, knowing what we want to buy is nearly their total focus, because if "we" will buy it, so will the rest of the world. Think about this: KIA now makes a "luxury SUV."

I personally know several individuals who received retraining. Several factory jobs in my town left for the rim:

Dohler Jarvis (National Lead Co/Dutch Boy Paints)
Stanley G. Flag Co. (pipe fittings) That building site is now a park along the Schuylkill River

Dana Corp has moved a lot of work

Neapco (makers of those repair axles you buy at Pep Boys) have scaled way back.

Bethlehem Steel left town decades before NAFTA.

The bottom line: we could have stopped ALL of this change by one small thing that we refused to do: pay MORE for everything we BUY, or let the free market determine who works and who does not. Instead, we have fears about not having enough faces in the ranks whose appearance satisfies politcal action groups like the so-called "Rainbow Coalition."

No politician is responsible for this economy, be they Democrat or Republican. They could definitely be responsible for runing it in the future, though, simply by putting more restraints on the free market.

It's the folks who buy the goods and elect the representatives.

[trane]

You have several good points. What really worries me is we now don't have to save just the home owners but the lenders that let it all happen. This is messing with the free market and will come back to bite us.

[cracker]

Here is quote from a friend that lives down "Cracker's" way, but tours the east a coast and mid west annually as an indie entertainer:
.

thanks for the kind words,..........The only thing that I would add Is, when the builders screwed the company's they passed It down the line too there employees, making them pay for there lack of business professionalism.

[timebuilder]

You have several good points. What really worries me is we now don't have to save just the home owners but the lenders that let it all happen. This is messing with the free market and will come back to bite us.

I could see the bailouts and support them under one condition: that the money used would create an economic interest in the lending institution and the individual properties which could generate a return on investment in the future. Everything that has been proposed is merely a free check being given to poor decision makers.

Basically, this is political pandering. "Who can give me the most money?" is the asinine question the electorate asks. This is what happens when you stop teaching civics, and replace it with situational ethics.

[Vortech]

NAFTA! thats all that needs to be said, It allows our company's to move out of the US where they can get cheap labor and less stringent environmental laws that lower overhead, we cant compete with our standard of living that we have here....the only ones that profit from this in the SHORT term is:
the companys bottom line, and the stock holders- NAFTA is not any good for US citizens and sooner or later there will be alot less money for US to buy these oversea's goods

[timebuilder]

NAFTA! thats all that needs to be said, It allows our company's to move out of the US where they can get cheap labor and less stringent environmental laws that lower overhead, we cant compete with our standard of living that we have here....the only ones that profit from this in the SHORT term is:
the companys bottom line, and the stock holders- NAFTA is not any good for US citizens and sooner or later there will be alot less money for US to buy these oversea's goods

Thoughts:

1) Companies were taking their production outside the US before NAFTA. Therefore, a) NAFTA is not to blame and b) not signing NAFTA would have changed nothing. It is merely an agreement where we get to send our goods to countries that ship theirs to us.

2) Without the exchange of goods, we would find ourselves in a very bad place indeed if countries would no longer accept our goods, and we would not have what we want and need coming into our country.

If we can generate all of the energy we need HERE, that is a very good start. It means Ted Kennedy will be looking out on those nasty windmills, and the Malibu crowd may see the top of an oil derrick on the horizon. How tragic.

[flange]

I don't disagree with any of what was stated. This country was made great by pioneering individuals who made something here. Look at all of the big corporations who were started by one or a few men, and built to greatness. The companies flourished over the years, with little regard for whether their workforce was union or not. They built their foundations on solid products and service. It is only recently that these corporations were overthrown by the likes of Jack Welsh, et al, and made to be more competitve to line their own pockets. Most of the board members of large companies are buds, and treat each other soo well, they can ruin a company, and in turn leave with a prenegotiated package worth tens of millions. Thank You very much. Don't tell me how unproductive our labor force is, tell me about these scumbags who are singlehandedly raping all of us. ......On a lighter note, I recently designed and built a manufacturing plant of a certain chemical product that used to be made in China. The owners here found china to be making a second line of the same product in a different badge, even though they had a noncompete clause. We built this plant and it started operation in mid july. It has soo far developed thirty plus new jobs, with a second shift starting in september. These are decent paying jobs for lower middle class folks who get to work in a decent place. The owners are proud to have brought jobs back to this country, and currently have a multiyear contract for production, with another process now being discussed.

[timebuilder]

I don't disagree with any of what was stated. This country was made great by pioneering individuals who made something here. Look at all of the big corporations who were started by one or a few men, and built to greatness. The companies flourished over the years, with little regard for whether their workforce was union or not. They built their foundations on solid products and service. It is only recently that these corporations were overthrown by the likes of Jack Welsh, et al, and made to be more competitve to line their own pockets. Most of the board members of large companies are buds, and treat each other soo well, they can ruin a company, and in turn leave with a prenegotiated package worth tens of millions. Thank You very much. Don't tell me how unproductive our labor force is, tell me about these scumbags who are singlehandedly raping all of us. ......On a lighter note, I recently designed and built a manufacturing plant of a certain chemical product that used to be made in China. The owners here found china to be making a second line of the same product in a different badge, even though they had a noncompete clause. We built this plant and it started operation in mid july. It has soo far developed thirty plus new jobs, with a second shift starting in september. These are decent paying jobs for lower middle class folks who get to work in a decent place. The owners are proud to have brought jobs back to this country, and currently have a multiyear contract for production, with another process now being discussed.

Great to hear of a job coming back here!

To their discredit, the Chinese are not respecters of agreements or intellectual property rights. They have some growing to do, as folks won't put up with that forever. When their own revolution comes, they will have a lot of costs added in that will help us compete with them.

[AtticAce]

A. No leadership and corruption in Washington, D.C.
B. Wall Street greed
C. DullMart shoppers who cause U.S. jobs to be moved overseas.
D. Debtor nation


To sum it up Federal Reserve Bank.

[wolfstrike]

whats wrong with the economy is, companies are pulling big profits and not paying employees.

[HVAC9900]

Who are you trying to kid timebuilder?

Your assertions do not match the facts, on most of your points.

So you know three people that had retraining? Hallejujah! Now you have only 20 million left to go, better get started. And by the way, what jobs will you retrain them for, that pay as much and have similar benefits as they had before? Oh and don't bring up any more examples of this company mor that one, the plain FACTS are that almost ALL those companies that dumped their workers never paid one dime to retrain them.And state programs are usually poor.Can these people pay for training at tech schools or college-they are trying to keep their heads above water now that their income(through no fault of their own) has been cut.
No more platitudes or gratuitous assertions(in other words don't make it up).

As far as your assertion that NAFTA and the china greement didn't cause any problems,where the heck have you been hiding?
Millions of good paying middle class jobs are GONE.
Along with the Health Care and income taxes paid to local and state governments to fund silly ole things like police,fire, roads.

Where are those people working now timebuilder,walmart? And how much do they make now?
The majority make considerably less, and the majority do not have health insurance(or if they do, it's usually bare bones),and end up going to the emergency room for care.This is almost always paid for by taxpayers.I'm not blaming them.

We in HVAC are fortunate in some ways, as our work can't be exported-we have to physically be there(at least in the majority of the time).
Maybe that's why you don't seem to get that millions suffered needlessly for these ill conceived agreements.

Trade agreements have been around for some time.Japan was one of the first large scale ones. The US gvmt wanted to build them up so they exported SOME electronics manufacturing there.This built up Japan, and also made them dependent on the US.
There was no wholesale Open the floodgates, it was controlled and limited.It worked out for everyone.
GEE ,you mean someone used some common sense?

And yes, canada has a lot of US auto production, and is our#1 trading partner. But, there most likely will not be much if any new manufacturing moving there, their currency has become too strong.

As I mentioned in my earlier post,which you completely ignored, Trade is good;if it is well thought out and planned.
Unregulated trade is stupid,and has been a major affliction to the many of this country,to the benefit of the few.

You spout a lot of gobbledy gook that sounds good to those with casual interest, but the facts do not support you.
History of trade agreements prove that trade with limits has worked well.History has also now proved that trade without limits is disastrous.


Even worse,your assertion that"we elected the people in DC, so we are responsible for what they do". BS!!!!!!!!!

Uhmmm Excuse Me, but what happened to personal responsibility?
By this logic, as I pay taxes for roads, I am responsible for how someone else drives?
I am responsible for myself.Politicians are responsible for themselves.
If I am speeding,I get the ticket-not you-
Politicians don't get a free pass,"just because you elected me".

[trane]

whats wrong with the economy is, companies are pulling big profits and not paying employees.


The jobs being lost in this country are the higher paying such as factory workers including auto. Your statement is not based on reality but personal beliefs.

[trane]

To sum it up Federal Reserve Bank.

Don't they only do whats best for all of us? Most people in this country believe the Federal Reserve Bank is controlled by our government which is far from the truth.

[hotntired]

In the last two decades, our economy has expanded rapidly. Income has risen, spending has risen and debt has risen (on the speculation that there will always be a way to pay it off).

Hotntired's first rule of economics states that for one entity to realize a profit, then the entity on the other side of the transaction must incur a loss of some degree.
In the housing market, many have bought homes at inflated prices and using short term interest only loans with the intention of selling them later at a profit or refinancing. The problem: the market has caught up with them and they can't sell. They often can't refinance either because the home isn't worth what's owed and the owner doesn't have the cash to put into the deal to cover the loss in value. It happens everyday around here. Lots of these people are working familys who thought it would be neat to invest in a condo, hold it, use it, rent it for a few years and sell at a nice profit. It rarely happened that way.
As for the rest of the economy, it rolls downhill. People lose confidence, slow down on spending and the whole thing contracts like a rubber band. Pretty simple actually.
The govenment's control of the monetary system is directly dependent on people borrowing and the level of government spending (which is borrowing since the government operates in a perpetual deficet).To regain the control of our own destiny, we can spend only what we make and not borrow. But, it's dangerous. The government depends on you borrowing and spending. When the borrowing dries up the spending slows and the economy sputters. Taxes will rise, as this is the governments only means of support.
A large part of many successful contractors businesses relies on borrowing: from financing programs to credit cards. So, we're in line to see the effects of people's scaling down on their spending. It was (is) inevitable.

I beleive we are in for a period of readjustment of American's attitudes toward consumer debt. Most rational people agree that most debt it just "dumb debt" that serves no purpose other than to make us happy for a few minutes. That's the garbage that we have to get rid of.

As for the exporting of american jobs, I beleive Timebuilder is right in the sense that we have refused to pay more for some goods that would keep factories rolling in the USA. But the business owners and CFO's also understand that we don't want to pay more for something than we have to. We might say that we would pay more for American made goods, but when no one is looking, we walk across the aisle and buy the less expensive import. And we know why it's less expensive. Take the gov. out of the picture and all of the trade agreements that facilitate the encroachment on our turf, and it goes back to a person's individual understanding of his own economics. He wants to buy the most product for the least money.

I see some monumental, lame brained, huge gov't programs on the horizon to bail out banks, individuals and select businesses w/ friends in high places.

[timebuilder]

whats wrong with the economy is, companies are pulling big profits and not paying employees.

Please name for me even one corporation that is not "paying their employees."

From everything I know about business, every employee has agreed to work for a given wage. If that wage is not sufficient to the needs of the employee, there are alternatives to be explored, including additional education, a different employer, and self employment.

Every retired person living off a pension, IRA, or 401K is living off the profits being distributed as dividends by corporations. I hope they make even bigger profits.

[timebuilder]

Who are you trying to kid timebuilder?

Your assertions do not match the facts, on most of your points.

So you know three people that had retraining? Hallejujah! Now you have only 20 million left to go, better get started. And by the way, what jobs will you retrain them for, that pay as much and have similar benefits as they had before? Oh and don't bring up any more examples of this company mor that one, the plain FACTS are that almost ALL those companies that dumped their workers never paid one dime to retrain them.And state programs are usually poor.Can these people pay for training at tech schools or college-they are trying to keep their heads above water now that their income(through no fault of their own) has been cut.
No more platitudes or gratuitous assertions(in other words don't make it up).

As far as your assertion that NAFTA and the china greement didn't cause any problems,where the heck have you been hiding?
Millions of good paying middle class jobs are GONE.
Along with the Health Care and income taxes paid to local and state governments to fund silly ole things like police,fire, roads.

Where are those people working now timebuilder,walmart? And how much do they make now?
The majority make considerably less, and the majority do not have health insurance(or if they do, it's usually bare bones),and end up going to the emergency room for care.This is almost always paid for by taxpayers.I'm not blaming them.

We in HVAC are fortunate in some ways, as our work can't be exported-we have to physically be there(at least in the majority of the time).
Maybe that's why you don't seem to get that millions suffered needlessly for these ill conceived agreements.

Trade agreements have been around for some time.Japan was one of the first large scale ones. The US gvmt wanted to build them up so they exported SOME electronics manufacturing there.This built up Japan, and also made them dependent on the US.
There was no wholesale Open the floodgates, it was controlled and limited.It worked out for everyone.
GEE ,you mean someone used some common sense?

And yes, canada has a lot of US auto production, and is our#1 trading partner. But, there most likely will not be much if any new manufacturing moving there, their currency has become too strong.

As I mentioned in my earlier post,which you completely ignored, Trade is good;if it is well thought out and planned.
Unregulated trade is stupid,and has been a major affliction to the many of this country,to the benefit of the few.

You spout a lot of gobbledy gook that sounds good to those with casual interest, but the facts do not support you.
History of trade agreements prove that trade with limits has worked well.History has also now proved that trade without limits is disastrous.


Even worse,your assertion that"we elected the people in DC, so we are responsible for what they do". BS!!!!!!!!!

Uhmmm Excuse Me, but what happened to personal responsibility?
By this logic, as I pay taxes for roads, I am responsible for how someone else drives?
I am responsible for myself.Politicians are responsible for themselves.
If I am speeding,I get the ticket-not you-
Politicians don't get a free pass,"just because you elected me".




In this representative republic, we are all, as a collective group of voters, responsible for those who we elect. Perhaps you should review who you and your friends have voted in favor of in past elections, and review their records. You may be very surprised at what you find.

The fact that I know anyone in a small town who has received retraining is indicative of the millions of others outside my small town who have also received it. Nothing has been "made up."

Would I like to see everyone receive retraining? No, absolutely not. No one has paid for my retraining when I have lost jobs in the past, and that is because I live in a land of freedom, and not a socialist dictatorship where I haver my next job chosen for me. If I have survived without a retraining gift from the government, and since I am only a mildly talented individual, then others can survive and thrive, as well.

Once again, NAFTA is not the "cause" of the loss of jobs. Those jobs were leaving BEFORE Nafta, because of the choices we make as consumers. We will not pay $2,000 for a 25 inch color TV, so Zenith, the last US TV manufacturer, moved to Mexico. Now, they are all but defunct. Sanyo is the new Sony, and those sets are made by highly focused workers who are grateful to have employment. None of them have unpaid leave or the superior medical services we have in the US. None of them sue their employers, have labor unrest, or collecting lifetime disability for a backache. That's why they make the goods, and we don't. Our goods cost too much by comparison, and we refuse to pay what it costs to make those goods here. Once again, this is our choice.

All of this IS the result of our personal responsibility. The legislators that WE elect. The purchases that WE make. The cost that WE insist upon from the legal concept of being "made whole," when we were not "whole" to begin with.

So, if you want positive change, start by not electing trial lawyers to congress. Then vote for those who will construct trade agreements to support the new, lower cost of doing business here. Then, and only then, when costs come down, will you see more jobs here.

Point: WE are the source of the costs of production, and other folks who live different lives than we live can build things for MUCH less cost.

That's we we buy their stuff.

[timebuilder]

In the last two decades, our economy has expanded rapidly. Income has risen, spending has risen and debt has risen (on the speculation that there will always be a way to pay it off).

Hotntired's first rule of economics states that for one entity to realize a profit, then the entity on the other side of the transaction must incur a loss of some degree.

When I was studying Marxism at NYU, I thought the same thing. Wealth building is not a transfer mechanism, but a creation mechanism. It is the synergy of the work spent in preparation, the discovery of opportunity, the planning and execution of a set of steps to achieve the goal that creates wealth where none had existed before. People are willing to pay an agreed upon price when this planning succeeds, which is the reward for this creation of wealth being shared with the buyer.


In the housing market, many have bought homes at inflated prices and using short term interest only loans with the intention of selling them later at a profit or refinancing. The problem: the market has caught up with them and they can't sell. They often can't refinance either because the home isn't worth what's owed and the owner doesn't have the cash to put into the deal to cover the loss in value. It happens everyday around here. Lots of these people are working familys who thought it would be neat to invest in a condo, hold it, use it, rent it for a few years and sell at a nice profit. It rarely happened that way.

...and the decision to do that was ill-advised from the beginning. They made poor decisions in the free marketplace, and they should endure the consequences for those poor decisions. Without that temporary suffering, no one would learn what happens when a bad decision is made. This way, others learn to avoid the same behavior.


As for the rest of the economy, it rolls downhill. People lose confidence, slow down on spending and the whole thing contracts like a rubber band. Pretty simple actually.
The govenment's control of the monetary system is directly dependent on people borrowing and the level of government spending (which is borrowing since the government operates in a perpetual deficet).To regain the control of our own destiny, we can spend only what we make and not borrow. But, it's dangerous. The government depends on you borrowing and spending. When the borrowing dries up the spending slows and the economy sputters. Taxes will rise, as this is the governments only means of support.

Actually, what needs to happen is for the government to lower spending in this situation. Raising taxes will virtually guarantee a recession.


A large part of many successful contractors businesses relies on borrowing: from financing programs to credit cards. So, we're in line to see the effects of people's scaling down on their spending. It was (is) inevitable.

I believe we are in for a period of readjustment of American's attitudes toward consumer debt. Most rational people agree that most debt it just "dumb debt" that serves no purpose other than to make us happy for a few minutes. That's the garbage that we have to get rid of.

That is 100% correct!


As for the exporting of american jobs, I beleive Timebuilder is right in the sense that we have refused to pay more for some goods that would keep factories rolling in the USA. But the business owners and CFO's also understand that we don't want to pay more for something than we have to. We might say that we would pay more for American made goods, but when no one is looking, we walk across the aisle and buy the less expensive import. And we know why it's less expensive. Take the gov. out of the picture and all of the trade agreements that facilitate the encroachment on our turf, and it goes back to a person's individual understanding of his own economics. He wants to buy the most product for the least money.

I see some monumental, lame brained, huge gov't programs on the horizon to bail out banks, individuals and select businesses w/ friends in high places.


I think some of those lame brained ideas will be tempered, because the Federal Reserve (a privately held bank which is not federal, and there are no "reserves") will counsel the next President that these programs and higher taxes will lead to the same "stagflation" of the Carter years.

[Jack2007]

In this representative republic, we are all, as a collective group of voters, responsible for those who we elect. Perhaps you should review who you and your friends have voted in favor of in past elections, and review their records. You may be very surprised at what you find.

The fact that I know anyone in a small town who has received retraining is indicative of the millions of others outside my small town who have also received it. Nothing has been "made up."

Would I like to see everyone receive retraining? No, absolutely not. No one has paid for my retraining when I have lost jobs in the past, and that is because I live in a land of freedom, and not a socialist dictatorship where I haver my next job chosen for me. If I have survived without a retraining gift from the government, and since I am only a mildly talented individual, then others can survive and thrive, as well.

Once again, NAFTA is not the "cause" of the loss of jobs. Those jobs were leaving BEFORE Nafta, because of the choices we make as consumers. We will not pay $2,000 for a 25 inch color TV, so Zenith, the last US TV manufacturer, moved to Mexico. Now, they are all but defunct. Sanyo is the new Sony, and those sets are made by highly focused workers who are grateful to have employment. None of them have unpaid leave or the superior medical services we have in the US. None of them sue their employers, have labor unrest, or collecting lifetime disability for a backache. That's why they make the goods, and we don't. Our goods cost too much by comparison, and we refuse to pay what it costs to make those goods here. Once again, this is our choice.

All of this IS the result of our personal responsibility. The legislators that WE elect. The purchases that WE make. The cost that WE insist upon from the legal concept of being "made whole," when we were not "whole" to begin with.

So, if you want positive change, start by not electing trial lawyers to congress. Then vote for those who will construct trade agreements to support the new, lower cost of doing business here. Then, and only then, when costs come down, will you see more jobs here.

Point: WE are the source of the costs of production, and other folks who live different lives than we live can build things for MUCH less cost.
That's we we buy their stuff.
Ahmen.

[Vortech]

Thoughts:

1) Companies were taking their production outside the US before NAFTA. Therefore, a) NAFTA is not to blame and b) not signing NAFTA would have changed nothing. It is merely an agreement where we get to send our goods to countries that ship theirs to us.

2) Without the exchange of goods, we would find ourselves in a very bad place indeed if countries would no longer accept our goods, and we would not have what we want and need coming into our country.

If we can generate all of the energy we need HERE, that is a very good start. It means Ted Kennedy will be looking out on those nasty windmills, and the Malibu crowd may see the top of an oil derrick on the horizon. How tragic.

1) Yes but there was more balance due to tariffs, placed on those goods and most of the first industries to move out where that of large volume LOW COST products (ie: textile) as for steel companies, they where partially exempt BEFORE NAFTA, NAFTA made it more profitable for makers of large and expensive items, to move out of the US, besides when is enough "growth" enough? 10-15% growth on profit per year seems absurd to me for say 10 years straight.......

2) Need? Self sustainability should be what sets our need....not Greed

[timebuilder]

1) The other side of the coin is that our exports are also now welcome in the markets that NAFTA made possible. Without that, we WOULD be paying more, a LOT more, for everything. As previously noted, American consumers are unwilling to do that.

2) "Need" means what is necessary to power our economy. Greed is not an aspect, because even if we outlawed the current energy companies in a desperate attempt to pander to the electorate, other companies in which we are not invested as owners would be more than willing to bend us over and skip the hug and the kiss.

[mikethe ductman]

So what do you suggest timebuilder tear down the unions take away health insurance take away workers right to sue oweners over neglect or abuse then we might have a fighting chance
Next you will tell us that big business will make sure the water and air is clean lol

[timebuilder]

So what do you suggest timebuilder tear down the unions take away health insurance take away workers right to sue oweners over neglect or abuse then we might have a fighting chance
Next you will tell us that big business will make sure the water and air is clean lol


Hmm. I'm trying to identify what you think I said that would indicate I'm somehow anti-union. I've been a member of three unions, and I'm looking to join UA.

Big business will do what we, the stockholders and consumers, dictate they must do. When people refuse to buy a product (for example) they really get the attention of the makers. Over the years, there have been some very interesting stockholder meetings.

LOL, in fact, it is compliance with the EPA regs (the EPA was formed under Richard Nixon, by the way) by corporations that have given us the water that is clean and the air that is breathable. That, and the capitalist system of rewarding technology that accomplished those goals by creating new methods of waste treatment and disposal, along with reduced emissions from (another example) clean coal and nuclear plants. That would be technology developed by, yes, corporations.

What I am saying is that the things that we indicated we wanted, such as an unlimited ability to sue for each and every misdeed or perceived slight within and without the workplace, has raised the US cost of doing business to an unprecedented level. Now, compare that cost level with the production cost of less litigious and more common-sense type societies, and you will see that it is what we have either demanded of our judicial and regulatory systems or merely permitted to develop that has driven the production of much of what we demand from our shores.

I recall a time (and I'm not old at all) of 95+% of all cars on the road being American brands, of Dayton motors being made in Dayton, Ohio, and those workers coming home to watch TV on a Philco or Zenith or Admiral set. As I recall, the air in my town was just fine, and so was my drinking water. I lived near no lakes that could catch on fire (an extreme example, Lake Erie) and we started the school day with the Pledge of Allegiance and the Lord's Prayer. No one brought a weapon to school, and if little Johnny fell of the monkey bars, his mom did not call a TV injury lawyer. Life made sense.

So, I'm not suggesting that someone swoop in and 'take things away,' but I AM suggesting that this is the judicial and regulatory environment we have, and it is mostly of our very own making. Other people who have not been conditioned to think of themselves as the most important person in the universe are cleaning our clocks, and it will take a while for them to become as corrupted and lacking in freedom and liberty as we have allowed ourselves to become. When someone offers "change" and is not even challenged to articulate the mechanism or consequences of that change, I can clearly see how far we have come from the America envisioned by men like Jefferson, Washington, and Franklin.

[wolfstrike]

Please name for me even one corporation that is not "paying their employees."


1) McDonald's.
this is a business that when they open up a resturant, it's almost a 100% guaranteed success.
wanna know why?
because they don't have to pay the people who earn them their money.

we are made to believe that people who flip burgars deserve to earn NOTHING.
this is brainwashing that exists in our mind. fast food is a giant business, and the people who make it happen should be paid fairly.

when a company like this is allowed to pay their employees 6 bucks an hour, they might as well just flick peanuts at their employees for payment, because it's the same damn thing.

2) My Employer
every month i earn my employer $15,000 to $30,000 in sales.
i'm lucky if i get a couple thousand out of that.
how is it that i do 100% of the labor yet i collect 8-15% of the ticket?
techs in Florida install full systems for a fraction of the price i have to charge, they're probably making more money than i am.
The money is there but the pay check is not, and guess what? i'm not going around spending extra money on junk right now, "bad economy"

a large chunk on my ticket goes to my manager who sits on his ass, and an even larger chunk of my ticket goes to the owner, who doesn't even report to work, neither one of them have any skills other than ripping people off.


3) Wanna talk about jobs going over seas?

it's real simple.
companies pay employees 17 cents per day and don't have to worry about regulations and taxes.
the American worker is going to lose every time.

the only hope this country has to keep any job that can be exported, is to force politicians to create a law that says, "if you sell it here, you make it here"
THERE IS NO OTHER WAY , NOTHING ELSE WILL WORK, NO EXCUSES
you can hire 1000 finacial analysers to figure out a solution, nothing will work.



here we are in the country with the largest economy in the world, exchanging the largest amounts of money in the world,
and everyone is walking around saying "bad economy"


we're not even in a recession by the definition of "recession"

every problem we have is caused by the government.
if companies are having any problem surviving, it's because the government is extorting outrageous amounts of money and forcing businesses to waste money on the insurance scam, and other fruitless regulations.



when you buy into this idea of a "bad economy" you are simply trading your paycheck for a bunch of mumbo jumbo.

[mikethe ductman]

timebuilder sounds like all the things you blame for the bad economy are the things the unions fought for and you talked about kenndy and clinton who are dems and you know who the unions support most of the time
like wolfstrike said how do you compete with a 17 cent a day wage you don't

[timebuilder]

timebuilder sounds like all the things you blame for the bad economy are the things the unions fought for and you talked about kenndy and clinton who are dems and you know who the unions support most of the time
like wolfstrike said how do you compete with a 17 cent a day wage you don't


First, I'm not "blaming" a "bad economy." I have seen a "bad economy," and my friend, this isn't it.

Kennedy lives in a compound of royal appointments, and sucks off a Trust that Joseph P Kennedy funded with his ill-gotten gains. Ol' Joe was the master insider-trader who was asked by Congress to make it hard to do what he had done. That's how the SEC was started. They never asked him to give the money back, though. After all, what he had done was legal. That's the cloth Ted is cut from. He likes to talk about alternative energy and how "evil" the oil companies are, but he kept wind turbines from being erected off the cost of Massachusetts because he and his friends could see that area from their vacation island of liberal multi-millionaires.

And you say this is called supporting the working man? Not in my book.

Clinton (as in Mrs) made a lot of money from some incredibly insightful commodities trades. Most professional traders say that you could have all of the legal information in the world about trading, and not do that well. So, many folks believe that she had a little help that sweetened the possibilities, shall we say. Once again: is this someone who represents the values of working folks? Nope.

What we have (whether you listen to the experts who say that the fundamentals of our economy are good, or if you listen to a Presidential candidate who changes his positions they way a chameleon changes its colors) is a set of economic conditions that WE and OUR elected officials have voted to approve.

William Jefferson Clinton had an opportunity to start drilling for oil when he was President, but chose not to. Almost every representative and senator in this alleged "party of the people" (of which I was a member for 23 years) has prevented our country from being energy independent and world-market competitive.

Now, we could be competitive, since most US production is not unionized, and that which is unionized is wise enough to help make us competitive (by lowering wage and benefit targets at GM, for example). But with trial lawyers and their settlement pots o' gold funding the American socialist party of class warfare, the interests of the American people are placed dead last.

Soon, we could have the greenest policies, the freest healthcare, and the highest taxes and unemployment of any developed nation. But don't worry. Vladimir Putin and the Chinese Communists have the things we need, and they will charge us as royally as Ted Kennedy's favorite chair.

[timebuilder]

1) McDonald's.
this is a business that when they open up a resturant, it's almost a 100% guaranteed success.
wanna know why?
because they don't have to pay the people who earn them their money.

we are made to believe that people who flip burgars deserve to earn NOTHING.
this is brainwashing that exists in our mind. fast food is a giant business, and the people who make it happen should be paid fairly.

when a company like this is allowed to pay their employees 6 bucks an hour, they might as well just flick peanuts at their employees for payment, because it's the same damn thing.

2) My Employer
every month i earn my employer $15,000 to $30,000 in sales.
i'm lucky if i get a couple thousand out of that.
how is it that i do 100% of the labor yet i collect 8-15% of the ticket?
techs in Florida install full systems for a fraction of the price i have to charge, they're probably making more money than i am.
The money is there but the pay check is not, and guess what? i'm not going around spending extra money on junk right now, "bad economy"

a large chunk on my ticket goes to my manager who sits on his ass, and an even larger chunk of my ticket goes to the owner, who doesn't even report to work, neither one of them have any skills other than ripping people off.


3) Wanna talk about jobs going over seas?

it's real simple.
companies pay employees 17 cents per day and don't have to worry about regulations and taxes.
the American worker is going to lose every time.

the only hope this country has to keep any job that can be exported, is to force politicians to create a law that says, "if you sell it here, you make it here"
THERE IS NO OTHER WAY , NOTHING ELSE WILL WORK, NO EXCUSES
you can hire 1000 finacial analysers to figure out a solution, nothing will work.



here we are in the country with the largest economy in the world, exchanging the largest amounts of money in the world,
and everyone is walking around saying "bad economy"


we're not even in a recession by the definition of "recession"

every problem we have is caused by the government.
if companies are having any problem surviving, it's because the government is extorting outrageous amounts of money and forcing businesses to waste money on the insurance scam, and other fruitless regulations.



when you buy into this idea of a "bad economy" you are simply trading your paycheck for a bunch of mumbo jumbo.


Both the MacDonald's workers and you agreed to work for that wage. My point is that you are still getting paid. Every company pays.

What can you (and them) do? Find something better. That's the American Way.

The 17 cents you mention can feed a family of ten for a day in the place where that is earned. Once again, if we refused to buy imported goods, we would still have a thriving manufacturing economy. Instead, we love our import cars, TV's, stereos, etc. You cannot erect trade barriers like you described because we cannot then export our goods to the countries we block. With no appreciable US energy production due to the environmental movement, we would be huddling by fires before long, and trapping rabbits for food, and our existing economy would drop into a depression.

Now, if folks like Al Gore decided to stop flying in his private jets to places to tell the audience to start riding bicycles for a speaker's fee of $50,000, I might be impressed. That would be leadership, and would prove to me that he really believes in what he says. Since that would be a very cold day in a very warm place, I can only judge his veracity by his actions.

So, what we have is what we have told our elected officials to do, or have tolerated what they have done. It is no more complicated than that.

And that's where this thread started.

[trane]

1) McDonald's.
this is a business that when they open up a resturant, it's almost a 100% guaranteed success.
wanna know why?
because they don't have to pay the people who earn them their money.

we are made to believe that people who flip burgars deserve to earn NOTHING.
this is brainwashing that exists in our mind. fast food is a giant business, and the people who make it happen should be paid fairly.

when a company like this is allowed to pay their employees 6 bucks an hour, they might as well just flick peanuts at their employees for payment, because it's the same damn thing.

2) My Employer
every month i earn my employer $15,000 to $30,000 in sales.
i'm lucky if i get a couple thousand out of that.
how is it that i do 100% of the labor yet i collect 8-15% of the ticket?
techs in Florida install full systems for a fraction of the price i have to charge, they're probably making more money than i am.
The money is there but the pay check is not, and guess what? i'm not going around spending extra money on junk right now, "bad economy"

a large chunk on my ticket goes to my manager who sits on his ass, and an even larger chunk of my ticket goes to the owner, who doesn't even report to work, neither one of them have any skills other than ripping people off.


3) Wanna talk about jobs going over seas?

it's real simple.
companies pay employees 17 cents per day and don't have to worry about regulations and taxes.
the American worker is going to lose every time.

the only hope this country has to keep any job that can be exported, is to force politicians to create a law that says, "if you sell it here, you make it here"
THERE IS NO OTHER WAY , NOTHING ELSE WILL WORK, NO EXCUSES
you can hire 1000 finacial analysers to figure out a solution, nothing will work.



here we are in the country with the largest economy in the world, exchanging the largest amounts of money in the world,
and everyone is walking around saying "bad economy"


we're not even in a recession by the definition of "recession"

every problem we have is caused by the government.
if companies are having any problem surviving, it's because the government is extorting outrageous amounts of money and forcing businesses to waste money on the insurance scam, and other fruitless regulations.



when you buy into this idea of a "bad economy" you are simply trading your paycheck for a bunch of mumbo jumbo.


If you and the McDonald employees are worth more than your getting paid why in the hell are you still there? Whats keeping you from getting that job that pays what your worth or why stop there find one that pays more than your worth. Could it be that you are just lucky to have the job and pay you currently have?

[pulse21]

All of this gloom and doom recession bad economy talk is just a bunch of media bs. Yes some folks are having a rough time but look around we as a country are living better than we ever have. Ride to town Saturday night and the Texas Roadhouse and Chilis or whatever is packed folks dropping 40 bucks or so for dinner left and right. I refuse to be part of the recession!!!! Yes gas prices suck if everyone would stop freaking out the economy would be a lot better right now were about 2.50 a gallon more than we were a few years back. And everyone just stops spending because of it. Say youre vehiclle holds 15 gallons youre spending about 20-30 more bucks a week on gas (average commuter, not someone in a mobile buisness like us) It ain't the end of the world brown bag youre lunch lay off a trip to Starbucks once a week and youre right back where we were before the liberal media talked us into a recession!!! We should tax buisness who shut down here and move overseas though to level the playing field. We simply can't compete when we require a fair wage and decent conditions when the folks in China will work for a bowl of fishheads and rice a day!!!! China will turn more like us just like Japan did they are heading that way now look at the crowds on the Olympics they are becomeing more like us just like Japan did then I guess the companys will just move to India if they can get them off the phone lines of customer service to make some Walmart crap. It will get worse before it gets better but it will get better IMHO

[mikethe ductman]

timebuilder so you have seen tough times huh are you talking about the late 70's when they stuck it to us with the so called oil shortage? when reagan said jimmy was wrong to tell people to cut back on oil now george is holding hands and doing a jig with the one's who stuck it to us then and now
as for hillary are you talking about that 100 grand on pork BFD george dick and the gang are making a killing on the killing
as for bill driling off shore well george and the repubs held the senate house an the prez for 6 years and what did they do about drilling
as for al gore the oil man t boone pickens??? says the same thing what funny bed fellows or has the truth bite the repubs in the back side
the repubs fought clean air water better money for schooling unions mpg green energy and over sight now who is to blame

[mikethe ductman]

pulse21 have you bought a line set or some r22 or do you just ride a clock

[pulse21]

pulse21 have you bought a line set or some r22 or do you just ride a clock

Not sure I follow you yeah I've bought several linesets and a lot of 22 you talking about prices? It's all high as hell. But you gots to make it into a positive if say you mark things up at xx% and you buy something for 2 bucks then all of a sudden it costs you 4 bucks well you still mark it up xx% youre profit just grew say it was 50% at 2 bucks you made a dollar at 4 bucks you make 2 dollars and the trickle just goes around it's inflation or supply and demand its what makes a free market economy work.

[mikethe ductman]

pulse21 thank you for opening my eyes i have been selling every thing at coast no wonder I am going backwards thanks for your words of wisdom and I thought it was the bad economy god am I dumb

[pulse21]

Everybody likes a little a$$ but nobody likes a smarta$$!!!! Then enlighten me what was the point of your post about linesets and 22?

[mikethe ductman]

the price of gas affects more then what we pay at the pump $7 for the use of a pillow on a plane so its not just an extra 20 at the pump

[timebuilder]

timebuilder so you have seen tough times huh are you talking about the late 70's when they stuck it to us with the so called oil shortage? when reagan said jimmy was wrong to tell people to cut back on oil now george is holding hands and doing a jig with the one's who stuck it to us then and now

Don't drink while posting, please.



as for hillary are you talking about that 100 grand on pork BFD george dick and the gang are making a killing on the killing

Same as above.



as for bill driling off shore well george and the repubs held the senate house an the prez for 6 years and what did they do about drilling

There were unable to do anything with such a slim majority. All of the folks they need for votes are taking money from to so-called environmental movement. Glad you asked.



as for al gore the oil man t boone pickens??? says the same thing

Not True. Al says ride bicycles. T Boone says build windmills. He is heavily invested in the companies what will build those windmills. That's ok, mind you, but the need for drilling here and now is not the same issue as being able to "drill our way out of this." Plus, we have more oil here than Saudi Arabia. We just aren't allowed to drill for it in places where we know it is. The many oil leases already held are of dubious production value.


the repubs fought clean air water better money for schooling unions mpg green energy and over sight now who is to blame

Fought? You mean argued for common sense alternatives to what was proposed, don't you? No one has "fought against" these things. People argue about how to meet the goals and to what extremes we should regulate, yes. That's how a representative republic works. Schools? You mean keeping people from choosing how to spend their own tax money so they can send their kids to a better school, as opposed to the pitiful school where they are going to drop out at a 50% rate? Heck, I even liked that idea when I was a democrat.

The people who are squarely in the free fire zone for responsibility are those who have obstructed our ability to drill here, build nuclear plants, and keep our production costs low enough to be competitive. Now, if you want the status quo, in other words, if you think that we should not drill here and now, that we should not build new nuclear plants, if we should not invest in clean coal technology, if we should not allow parents to choose their schools via vouchers, well...

..then you should be vary happy about the state of affairs I have described. After all, it's what you want.

[trane]

There is a man that I have known since I was a kid. He worked in a general store when I was growing up and I would see him about every day when we got gas or other things in this small country store.

Fast forward 35 years and he needs a new furnace and A/C system. He got a price from me and bought from a new guy 30 miles away that is now broke and gone. Two others I know bought from a friend in the family out of state and installed themselves. Another that had a small business that my family spent around 20,000 with a year had a bid 300.00 cheaper than me and went with them.

We now have no place to buy gas or anything else closer than 12 miles away. We had a new place open up but he found that the only gas he was selling to the majority was enough to get them to town to buy it a nickle a gallon cheaper. They would also bring him tires from Wal-Mart to see if he would put them on.

We all want high wages but we all buy everything as cheap as we can. You can't have both.

[mikethe ductman]

timebuilder let me prove my ststements=
google bush sword dance and bush holding hands with king
I know carter told people to cut back I herd it myself and I herd ronny say if someone wante a big azz car they should have it
as for hard times since the 1030's when hoover was prez and the repubs held the house and senate the only real tough times was in the late 70's if you can remember tough times befor the 30's then your over 80
as for hillarey and dirty $ if its not pork belly's then ?
as for bill and drilling thats sad the dems are against the repubs are for it when the repubs had power they new the PEOPLE were against it so it was never brought it to the floor
as for al gore I seen him on meet the press he wants ele cars t boone wants nat. gas cars "rush is a very good band and feeling also a dumb azz" try watching more than fox news
as for air water schools ect. the repubs never fought to make any better because of it hurt big $ bottom line
now lets see if its not the $ hillary made on pork tell me what you were talking about
as for off shore drilling show me a bill that the repubs put on the house floor during their time in power
as for al show me a quot wher he said bikes instead of cars
as for hard times well tell me a time line so I have a clue
as for nuc and coal power who's back yard do you put the dirty left over material in or do like the french and dumb it in the ocean and coal I have nothing against if its clean
now if I left anything hanging let me know and if you would tell me the tough times and hillarys dirty $ oh and als bike statements
you have got to love the net it can prove who knows their crap and who's telling crap

[wescoman]

as for nuc and coal power who's back yard do you put the dirty left over material in

Crawford, TX

I don't think any of us forced these companies to move their manufacturing. It was a greed movement. Some bean counter accountant said hey we can move and pay dirt wages to anyone who wants it, we can pollute like never before, we can rake in huge profits and charge more for our products. I walk into a Red Wing boot store and find crap made in China. It's forced on me ... NOT MY CHOICE.

Bush and Pelosi condemn China's lack of human right's. China's leadership just laughs at them. After all we owe them, right and who allowed them to move jobs to China? It sure wasn't me or my neighbor. Those idiots in D.C. have lost all sight of what this country is all about. Those people don't have the balls to clamp down on big oil and regulate them and then go after Wall Street. They are the new millinium economic terrorist!

Practically every republiCON since Reagan's move on the Air Traffic Controller's union has moved to dismantle the unions. I once sat on a school board and we all knew what the No Child Left Behind legislation was...a union busting move to drive a stake into the education union system.

The working class in this country should plunder the wealthy and politician's who stole from us. I've often said we should just stop paying on the home, cars, credit cards and take those companies/people down with us.

[timebuilder]

timebuilder let me prove my ststements=
google bush sword dance and bush holding hands with king
I know carter told people to cut back I herd it myself and I herd ronny say if someone wante a big azz car they should have it
as for hard times since the 1030's when hoover was prez and the repubs held the house and senate the only real tough times was in the late 70's if you can remember tough times befor the 30's then your over 80
as for hillarey and dirty $ if its not pork belly's then ?
as for bill and drilling thats sad the dems are against the repubs are for it when the repubs had power they new the PEOPLE were against it so it was never brought it to the floor
as for al gore I seen him on meet the press he wants ele cars t boone wants nat. gas cars "rush is a very good band and feeling also a dumb azz" try watching more than fox news
as for air water schools ect. the repubs never fought to make any better because of it hurt big $ bottom line
now lets see if its not the $ hillary made on pork tell me what you were talking about
as for off shore drilling show me a bill that the repubs put on the house floor during their time in power
as for al show me a quot wher he said bikes instead of cars
as for hard times well tell me a time line so I have a clue
as for nuc and coal power who's back yard do you put the dirty left over material in or do like the french and dumb it in the ocean and coal I have nothing against if its clean
now if I left anything hanging let me know and if you would tell me the tough times and hillarys dirty $ oh and als bike statements
you have got to love the net it can prove who knows their crap and who's telling crap

I'm sorry to say that I found almost nothing redeeming in your posts. You rely on the net for crap, and that is what you will find. Clearly, you know nothing of America or the free enterprise system. To be honest, that saddens me. Here is a young person (you) that has virtually no clue except the stuff he finds on the net. No knowledge of English or how to write clearly and cogently. All run-on ideas without a shred of objective truth in any of it. A lot of attitude, and no strength of knowledge or conviction of ideas behind it. Wow. Is this what we have come to? No wonder we need to reform education.

As for nuclear, it is the cleanest power we have. I have lived within 20 miles of such a plant for 20 years. Since you mentioned France, a large portion of their country is powered by nuclear. You put the waste in a holding facility until a better processing plan is available.

As far as Al Gore is concerned, he told me about the bicycles as we talked in an executive lounge at Dulles. He did not mention that his homes use over ten times the energy of a typical American home. He went off to burn 1,000 gallons of jet fuel, and so did I. I was in the front of mine, and he was in the back of his.

What I know comes from 38 years as a member of both political parties, and a lot of first-hand experience. I'm not going to annotate everything for you, because I feel it is a waste of valuable time. If I thought I could help you, I would, but folks have to want to learn, and I don't sense that in your rambling arrogance.

Maybe you need a new set of websites. I think that would help a lot.

[coolwhip]

90% of Frances power is nuclear....they sell power to other countries.

[timebuilder]

Crawford, TX

I don't think any of us forced these companies to move their manufacturing. It was a greed movement. Some bean counter accountant said hey we can move and pay dirt wages to anyone who wants it, we can pollute like never before, we can rake in huge profits and charge more for our products. I walk into a Red Wing boot store and find crap made in China. It's forced on me ... NOT MY CHOICE.

Bush and Pelosi condemn China's lack of human right's. China's leadership just laughs at them. After all we owe them, right and who allowed them to move jobs to China? It sure wasn't me or my neighbor. Those idiots in D.C. have lost all sight of what this country is all about. Those people don't have the balls to clamp down on big oil and regulate them and then go after Wall Street. They are the new millinium economic terrorist!

Practically every republiCON since Reagan's move on the Air Traffic Controller's union has moved to dismantle the unions. I once sat on a school board and we all knew what the No Child Left Behind legislation was...a union busting move to drive a stake into the education union system.

The working class in this country should plunder the wealthy and politician's who stole from us. I've often said we should just stop paying on the home, cars, credit cards and take those companies/people down with us.

At least this guy begins with something that can be discussed.

No, it was not a greed movement. My parents, your parents, and a lot of retired folks along with orphans living on trusts and pension portfolios are the owners of these corporations. The corporations have an imperative to remain profitable. As our costs rose, people began to buy imported goods made by companies that were not owned by Americans. The only way to compete was to meet these companies on their own playing field. We couldn't shut out those goods, because then the stuff we still made would have been shut out of those countries.

So, yes, it was "your choice." What boots did you buy? An American brand? How about tires? Cars? Appliances? TV's? How about your brothers and sisters, parents and children. Did they all buy American? No, they didn't. They refused to pay what a pair of shoes (or other item) now costs to be made entirely in the US. If I look hard enough, I can find some American footwear, but I would not wear then on a roof.

Actually, it was you and your neighbor. Who put Pelosi and others in power? In the case of Pelosi, it was trial lawyers. In the case of Bush , it was just a better choice over Kerry. If you don't like American policies, then change the players. Here is a clue: no democrat will do anything different from Bush regarding China. The best course there is to continue to help their culture and politics to grow, and as they absorb more capitalism, and come here to get educated, more good will happen there when these students graduate and go home to share these new ideas.

And please, tell me how a government of free people would "clamp down on big oil?" What exactly would such a move entail? A takeover? What about the people who live on those dividends? Millions of people would suddenly be without income. What would the government do about that? Who would develop new forms of energy? Hint: if the government is running that program, no one will invest. The only answer would be a big tax hike. Here is what happens next: the rich (including Pelosi and Reid) move their money offshore. Economic collapse is next, and fuel prices come back down to $1 a gallon. No one will have work, so we don't need to drive. We can get bread and milk, but we have to stand in long lines to get it. Sound familiar?" Think: Russia in the 70's and 80's.

The education system is already dead. You can't get rid of a bad teacher, so they stay. You have more administrators with no-cost PhD's than actual in-class instructors, and the quality of the result is the worst in our history. Look at the guy posting above who can't even write in standard English. This is what we are putting out today. Pitiful. And I get this stuff from, yes, union teachers in Philadelphia.

You were doing so well until you went off the deep end with the 1960's "tear down the walls" BS. Yeah, that's what we should do, just turn away from our promises to pay what we have agreed to pay.

Yeah. That'll fix 'em.

[timebuilder]

Looks like it may be time to move this to ARP. I don't post there, so I hope I was informative. If it moves there, enjoy yourselves. :rolleyes:

[mikethe ductman]

here you go timebuilder
still waiting on tough times,hillarys dirty $ as for the bike thats just here say and more than likley strectched

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/4697/51cf1.jpg
http://http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/7210/bushabdullahchachingfh1.jpg

[timebuilder]

here you go timebuilder
still waiting on tough times,hillarys dirty $ as for the bike thats just here say and more than likley strectched

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/4697/51cf1.jpg
http://http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/7210/bushabdullahchachingfh1.jpg

The photo above shows Bush with a Saudi king. In the Arab world, if you want to have a favorable working relationship with a leader, you take part in things that can be a little odd looking. That's a lot more effective than being offensive. The Saudi leaders have a very difficult job in trying to keep the crazy wahhabis under wraps, because it would mean a Saudi revolution that would cripple the world oil supply. We need to prepare for that revolution by becoming energy-independent.

Bike: Read the post. Al told me that in 2002 in person. It is on event media, and is a conerstone of his energy conservation plan. The plan that doesn't apply to him.

http://www.bucksright.com/gore-let-them-ride-bikes-133



And, I'm not waiting on tough times. You shouldn't either.

*

[mikethe ductman]

timebender this is my last post on this subject
you have said you have seen hard or tough times but can't or wont tell me when
you call hillary a crook but wont say how she got the $
you said al gore told you someting about bikes what I have no clue
you bad mouth bill clinton a dem for not drilling
then you defend cocain george when the repubs held all the cards "meaning held both houses"and did NOTHING
you said you could not find george doing a jig with the king when more than likely a 5th grader could
yahoo has a story about a solar farm and why there are not more its a good read check it out see whos blocking tax credits to build more "its not the dems and you wont here it on rush"
of every thing you said the only thing you try to back up with any kind of facts is al gore told me himself you have given me nothing but some back stabing remarks and no way to prove if there true or not.
btw nothing wrong with riding a bike

[timebuilder]

timebender this is my last post on this subject
you have said you have seen hard or tough times but can't or wont tell me when
you call hillary a crook but wont say how she got the $
you said al gore told you someting about bikes what I have no clue
you bad mouth bill clinton a dem for not drilling
then you defend cocain george when the repubs held all the cards "meaning held both houses"and did NOTHING
you said you could not find george doing a jig with the king when more than likely a 5th grader could
yahoo has a story about a solar farm and why there are not more its a good read check it out see whos blocking tax credits to build more "its not the dems and you wont here it on rush"
of every thing you said the only thing you try to back up with any kind of facts is al gore told me himself you have given me nothing but some back stabing remarks and no way to prove if there true or not.
btw nothing wrong with riding a bike

What makes you think you have sufficient standing to demand anything of me? That's that sense of arrogance so prevalent in young guys. Not enough parenting, is my guess.

I have seen tough times in my life, and for the country. That's the answer. Nothing more is necessary.

Read the link on Hillary. It's the tip of the iceberg.

I know you have no clue. I agree.

No, I did not "bad mouth" Clinton for not drilling. I simply said he would not allow it. An executive order is all that would have been required.

How have I defended someone named "cocaine george?" I know that Democrat Hamilton Jordan was found using cocaine at Studio 54 in NYC. He was a Carter aide. That's as close as I can fathom your meaning.

I said that I would not search for someone doing a jig, a jag, or anything else. I don't see it as being relevant to a discussion of the economy. Maybe a 5th grader would find that interesting, but I don't.

I don't use Yahoo! Most of what is on the net is hearsay. If you are implying that a conservative has blocked some legislation regarding tax credits for solar, I can tell you that only the democrats can block legislation under Pelosi. She has even blocked discussion of the issues and up or down votes.

The gist of my personal conversation with Al is backed up by the link I posted. No other proof is necessary for you or anyone else.

I have posted no "back stabbing remarks." I can tell you though, that your writing is very difficult to read because you avoid the use of standard English and punctuation. If you want to improve your life and your employability, I would quickly get some remedial training in writing and critical thinking. Having worked in news and journalism, I can tell that it is invaluable.

I can also tell you that I find the physical and technical challenges of HVAC more rewarding than much of the liberal water-carrying I did as a writer and host in the 1970's. I didn't become a conservative until the 1990's, because I had let the big three networks and newspapers issue the attitudes and spin that I would echo and reproduce as the "serious, enlightened, and insightful news" that I wrote and read. At least, that is what we thought. Boy, were we ever wrong.

Fortunately for me, I grew up and out of that dynamic.

I hope you do, too.

[mikethe ductman]

timebuilder you have a better understanding of english and how to make a complete sentance I give you credit as for attacking my parents for raising a thinker instead of a follower. I could beleave every thing you say or I can check if your telling the truth or not

I will tell you what my mother and father tought me if you say or do something be man enough to back it up some thing you never learned
you say not to trust the internet then you tell me to look up/read "the link on hillary"
you talk about arrogance then tell me how much smarter you are then me and that age has brought you wisdom if thats not arrogance then what is
you say nuclear is the cleanest power we have, now my understanding of that means that there is nothing cleaner then it. If I was a betting man witch I am my $ would say that solar and wind are the cleanest power we have
since you will not answer a ? you force me to make a statement
you belittle people for not useing standerd english and punctuation so more then likely you looked down at the people who turn a wrench,sweat get dirty, when you worked in "news and journalism" I don't see a pilot/journalist turning a wrench so my gess is your in sales or someting where your hands don't get dirty and my $ says that you still look down at the peopl who work,sweat and get dirty.

[timebuilder]

timebuilder you have a better understanding of english and how to make a complete sentance I give you credit as for attacking my parents for raising a thinker instead of a follower. I could beleave every thing you say or I can check if your telling the truth or not

I will tell you what my mother and father tought me if you say or do something be man enough to back it up some thing you never learned
you say not to trust the internet then you tell me to look up/read "the link on hillary"
you talk about arrogance then tell me how much smarter you are then me and that age has brought you wisdom if thats not arrogance then what is
you say nuclear is the cleanest power we have, now my understanding of that means that there is nothing cleaner then it. If I was a betting man witch I am my $ would say that solar and wind are the cleanest power we have
since you will not answer a ? you force me to make a statement
you belittle people for not useing standerd english and punctuation so more then likely you looked down at the people who turn a wrench,sweat get dirty, when you worked in "news and journalism" I don't see a pilot/journalist turning a wrench so my gess is your in sales or someting where your hands don't get dirty and my ? says that you still look down at the peopl who work,sweat and get dirty.

Pretty contentious, eh? My advice is to engage the brain before putting the mouth into gear.

I would have hoped your parents would have ensured you had a good education. It is still your option to imporve yourself, just as I have done. 99% of what I now know I learned AFTER college.

There is a difference between a "thinker" and a "dreamer." I think you dream of a socialist paradise. It's been tried, and it has failed every time. It's one of those concepts that looks good on paper, but it falls short in the execution.

Now, you can feel free to check whatever you can that I have told you. I gave you a couple of links to get you started. However, I am not your research assistant. You can do that for yourself.

I said that most of what is on the internet is hearsay. The one link was from a website that reported a Gore appearance, and it is consistent with what Al told me himself. The other was from a newspaper.

I don't claim to be "smarter" than you. Better informed and more experienced, yes. Wisdom often requires time to germinate. I am fortunate that I was able to reverse my faulty course, just as that option is available to everyone. I am humbled and thankful that I was guided in such as way as a child that I was able to access that guidance later in life, while I could still be helped by it. It was only then that I discovered its value.

When I say that Nuclear is the cleanest power we have, I mean:

a) in wide use and proven to be economically viable
b) places no pollutants into he atmosphere such as from burning a fossil fuel for the production of heat.

Solar and wind will BECOME a good clean power, but they will never equal the Kw output of a good nuclear plant, thanks to the laws of thermodynamics.

No, I am not in sales. Would you like a resume?

I began working on mechanical equipment at age 11, and built hotrods and choppers until age 22 after leaving NYU and working on the NBC Radio Network. While working in broadcasting and newspapers on nights and weekends in Philadelphia, I worked for a major railroad installing and diagnosing signal equipment and gas fired rail heaters, and doing electronics from millivolt to kilovolt, including digital. I Have repaired AC systems on virtually every type of vehicle including a jet, and I am a commercially certificated pilot and instructor. I have earned four ASE master certificates, I am a member of RSES, and I have written test study guides for a major technical publisher.

This week, I covered over 500 miles in the truck, changed two compressors on RTU's, along with a York heat sequencer, a Goodman compressor delay on break timer, repaired a Lightstat, condemned two Carrier thermostats that would not respond to programming, diagnosed a bad freeze stat on a chilled water coil in the ceiling of a Payless store, replaced a noisy belt on a Trane, replaced an outdoor coil, an outdoor fan assembly, an exhaust fan motor, two contactors, and two Site Controls DZC's .

My current position is light to medium duty commercial systems used in retail environments.

So yes, I DO get my hands dirty. I use Scrubs-in-a-bucket when that happens.

[mikethe ductman]

once again being a man is backing up what you say
when you said that it is the cleasnest "nuc power" that was not true and instead of maning up and saying that you were wrong you say "I mean" instead of "what I should have said" now that sounds like something a man would as to "I mean" sounds like something a kid/punk would
do not let the bad punctuation grammer and spelling fool you I am on top of the english language
you say you know the difference between a thinker and a dreamer news flash if you think more oil will get us out of this mess than your the dreamer its like putting your finger in the dam to stop the water

[k-fridge]

Gentlemen,

Welcome to ARP. This thread has been moved here due to it's subject matter. We welcome all viewpoints here and encourage good discussion, but the rules are a bit different here so please familiarize yourself by clicking the link below.

Enjoy,

ARP Committee

[timebuilder]

once again being a man is backing up what you say

A whimsical assertion, but you don't get to make that determination for anyone but yourself. My word is my "backup."


when you said that it is the cleasnest "nuc power" that was not true and instead of maning up and saying that you were wrong you say "I mean" instead of "what I should have said" now that sounds like something a man would as to "I mean" sounds like something a kid/punk would
do not let the bad punctuation grammer and spelling fool you I am on top of the english language

You need to learn how to have a discussion. It's vastly different from the p***ing match you gravitate toward.

I said exactly what I wanted to say the first time. My only aim was to clarify it for you by saying it a different way.

Let's go back to square one:

Nuclear power is the cleanest power we have.

Now, can you grasp that?



you say you know the difference between a thinker and a dreamer news flash if you think more oil will get us out of this mess than your the dreamer its like putting your finger in the dam to stop the water

Not so, my young and impulsive dreamer.

We need more oil now, and for the foreseeable future. We need our own oil, not oil from an unstable are of the earth where people live in the 12th century.

Now, if you have something that can be brought on line to replace oil before the end of 2015, please, post it to Nancy Pelosi, and tell her she can call it her idea.

And please, be willing to be judged according to your actions, not your words. If you are indeed "on top of the English language, " you have yet to offer any writing that suggests that would be true.

[trane]

He is made like a Timex :D

[whec720]

.......But he is right. Read the entire thread. Timebuilder makes excellent points and communicates them very well. It is the people, the citizens, who make or break a country. If there are problems not being solved then guess who is to blame............................................. ...............................:rolleyes:
Americans need to put up or shut up.:cool:

[trane]

.......But he is right. Read the entire thread. Timebuilder makes excellent points and communicates them very well. It is the people, the citizens, who make or break a country. If there are problems not being solved then guess who is to blame............................................. ...............................:rolleyes:
Americans need to put up or shut up.:cool:


Timebuilder is not who I was referring to.

[whec720]

Timebuilder is not who I was referring to.

My bad, more the likely the ductman guy.:)

[bigtime]

miketimemiketimemiketimemiketimemiketime

You guys are a lot more alike than different. I think, you would enjoy hanging out a being friends. Im not really sure what youins are arguing about.:D

[mikethe ductman]

My bad, more the likely the ductman guy.:)
I may not be perfect but the problem I have with timebuilder is when he says
All they have in China are a lot of people who are GRATEFUL to have a job, and not spending their money to go see movies that attempt to demean their leadership, like Fahrenheit 911.
then he dogs out both clintons gore carter,polosi kennedy on&on&on
then he says
First, I'm not "blaming" a "bad economy." I have seen a "bad economy," and my friend, this isn't it.

I have been trying to find out when the economy sucked more then it does now I have yet to get a reply
next
Clinton (as in Mrs) made a lot of money from some incredibly insightful commodities trades. Most professional traders
I asked him if it was the 100g's she made off pork bellys yet no reply
next he says
William Jefferson Clinton had an opportunity to start drilling for oil when he was President, but chose not to.
I ask him why the republicans didnt drill when they held the white house the senate and congress he blamed the tree huggers when every one on the coast dems and repubs don't want it
then he said
As for nuclear, it is the cleanest power we have
not true solar and wind is
timebuilder makes some good points but if he thinks an american will buy an american made shirt for $20 over a $5 shirt made in china he is dead wrong and plus any one who calls me young at 44 you know I got to like

[The Doctor]

We all want high wages but we all buy everything as cheap as we can. You can't have both.

It seems about time for our countryfolk to realize that an adjustment is coming, and now is, when we will find that (basically) we as U.S. Americans (thank you Ms. South Carolina :D) are overpayed. Much of the talk of this being a recession is misplaced frustration at the inevitable ratcheting of our standard of living.

What is wrong with trapping rabbits for dinner? I ask ya. Does all of our dinner have to be "brought to you by..." So-and-So?

Convenience has its price, and it appears to me that we are in for a significant adjustment in our standard of living. Not the least of the reasons being that we have unfunded gov't liabilities to the tune of 54trillion USDollars for the foreseeable future.

And that is not even looking at the medical care/insurance adjustments needed just to offset the lurch toward socialism that our legislators seem to favor.

What ever happened to the free market? Is it so bad that we have to stand the (U.S. Constitutional) clause "regulate commerce" on its head and then bend it over a barrel?

[trane]

The word grateful has been replaced with entitled in this Country for too many people. I see it every day on job sites with others and some of my own guys. You would think making $40 plus an hour would get you an honest days work for that kind of pay. Why would anyone that has a good job paying a higher wage than 95% of the rest of the people in the area still screw off when the boss is gone and cheat on time sheets?

Its not because they are grateful and I might add that these guys would still choose that $5 shirt.

Politicians from neither party are going to change this Country. We have to do it ourselves and I think we are past the point of having the choice to do it willingly, so now it will be forced upon us. We have passed up that $20 shirt for so long they are now over stocked and don't need any more until they start to move.

[acmanko]

In my History class 1969 the teacher said be observant and anytime the economy goes bad, a Republican will be in office, when the economy does good, a Democrat will be in office.

[whec720]

In my History class 1969 the teacher said be observant and anytime the economy goes bad, a Republican will be in office, when the economy does good, a Democrat will be in office.

Hmmmm.....interesting. I did not know that Woodstock counted as a history course.:p

[Dowadudda]

I think were fortunate to have someone like Timebuilder. I think the gentleman who is so against him, doesn't even understand what Timebuilder is saying. He is not understanding it at all. So he is getting bent on what he thinks he is upset about. As a matter of fact it seems to me he has agreed on things but argued to agree on them.

Does he really not know how foolish he is being.

This is actually a great example of what I think is one of our many problems right now in the Country. The real roots, the causes, the proof with facts, it's just all twisted. And now. As so obvious in this discussion on this thread. What is the truth? How did it really happen? No one can be sure.

And so. It's tough to seek it out. It takes work to learn the truth. So for most, it's just easier to get all emotionally charged up and loyal to one side, recklessly dismissing the work you should do to learn the truth, instead of trusting the guy telling you this on a Podium.

Poloticians realize this. What an insult hey?

If your one to cast your support for something, because it's your issue. and you hear someone running for office share that same view with you, you naturally want to support them. They are your guy. But the devil is in the details. You have to really work at finding out if that guy is really living his words. So because it may take time, effort or money on your part to really determine if the guy passes muster, many people just simply blindly support.

I urge everyone veiwing this thread. Take some time and look at your political leaders your supporting. Are they truly living their words? If they are not, why are you supporting them.

[whec720]

Great post, many D's. I think what Timebuilder attempted pointing out was that, as Americans, we need to take a real honest look at ourselves. It is difficult and it takes a large portion of discipline and maturity to do so. Unfortunately, that is severely lacking in our adult population now, which is one of the main reasons we are all in such a mess.
Good advice on our representatives in government. I hope many heed it.

[mikethe ductman]

I think were fortunate to have someone like Timebuilder. I think the gentleman who is so against him, doesn't even understand what Timebuilder is saying. He is not understanding it at all. So he is getting bent on what he thinks he is upset about. As a matter of fact it seems to me he has agreed on things but argued to agree on them.

Does he really not know how foolish he is being.

This is actually a great example of what I think is one of our many problems right now in the Country. The real roots, the causes, the proof with facts, it's just all twisted. And now. As so obvious in this discussion on this thread. What is the truth? How did it really happen? No one can be sure.

And so. It's tough to seek it out. It takes work to learn the truth. So for most, it's just easier to get all emotionally charged up and loyal to one side, recklessly dismissing the work you should do to learn the truth, instead of trusting the guy telling you this on a Podium.

Poloticians realize this. What an insult hey?

If your one to cast your support for something, because it's your issue. and you hear someone running for office share that same view with you, you naturally want to support them. They are your guy. But the devil is in the details. You have to really work at finding out if that guy is really living his words. So because it may take time, effort or money on your part to really determine if the guy passes muster, many people just simply blindly support.

I urge everyone veiwing this thread. Take some time and look at your political leaders your supporting. Are they truly living their words? If they are not, why are you supporting them.


If you have read all timebuilders posts you will see he says to compete we need to stop people from sueing big and not so big $ for any injustice brought on to them in other words give big $ a free pass I trust the american people to say what is right or wrong
and when he says
NAFTA and GATT would have NO impact on the shifting of production to the pacific rim. If we refused to buy those goods, by paying more for the goods we are willing to purchase, we could be producing all of those goods HERE.
its simple american goods cost more tell someone to buy a product they will buy the cheapest one if you think other wise your a dreamer
now I agree with what he said here 100%
Once again, NAFTA is not the "cause" of the loss of jobs. Those jobs were leaving BEFORE Nafta, because of the choices we make as consumers. We will not pay $2,000 for a 25 inch color TV, so Zenith, the last US TV manufacturer, moved to Mexico. Now, they are all but defunct. Sanyo is the new Sony, and those sets are made by highly focused workers who are grateful to have employment. None of them have unpaid leave or the superior medical services we have in the US. None of them sue their employers, have labor unrest, or collecting lifetime disability for a backache. That's why they make the goods, and we don't. Our goods cost too much by comparison, and we refuse to pay what it costs to make those goods here. Once again, this is our choice.
then he goes on to say this it sounds anti union to me
Then vote for those who will construct trade agreements to support the new, lower cost of doing business here. Then, and only then, when costs come down, will you see more jobs here.
now this one takes the cake
True. Al says ride bicycles. T Boone says build windmills. He is heavily invested in the companies what will build those windmills. That's ok, mind you, but the need for drilling here and now is not the same issue as being able to "drill our way out of this." Plus, we have more oil here than Saudi Arabia. We just aren't allowed to drill for it in places where we know it is. The many oil leases already held are of dubious production value
we have more oil now that is funny but lets say that we do I want to be there when some one tells exxon to find more oil so they can drop the price of oil now remember exxon made more $ than any other co. in american history last 1/4 now we are going to ask them to cut their profits lol lol
then comes the personal attacks sorry I got sucked into that and got off message
sorry to say that I found almost nothing redeeming in your posts. You rely on the net for crap, and that is what you will find. Clearly, you know nothing of America or the free enterprise system. To be honest, that saddens me. Here is a young person (you) that has virtually no clue except the stuff he finds on the net. No knowledge of English or how to write clearly and cogently. All run-on ideas without a shred of objective truth in any of it. A lot of attitude, and no strength of knowledge or conviction of ideas behind it. Wow. Is this what we have come to? No wonder we need to reform education.


here is some thing else we agree on
no democrat will do anything different from Bush regarding China.
now this is real good
And please, tell me how a government of free people would "clamp down on big oil?" What exactly would such a move entail? A takeover? What about the people who live on those dividends? Millions of people would suddenly be without income. What would the government do about that? Who would develop new forms of energy? Hint: if the government is running that program, no one will invest. The only answer would be a big tax hike. Here is what happens next: the rich (including Pelosi and Reid) move their money offshore. Economic collapse is next, and fuel prices come back down to $1 a gallon. No one will have work, so we don't need to drive. We can get bread and milk, but we have to stand in long lines to get it. Sound familiar?" Think: Russia in the 70's and 80's.
now when he says "who would new forms of energy"I go back to exxon and record profits why would they want any kind of new energy? then he goes off the deep end
if this isnt taking a jab at clinton then why bring it up
No, I did not "bad mouth" Clinton for not drilling. I simply said he would not allow it. An executive order is all that would have been required
and when he said this he must have forgot about a fillabuster "remember how the dems use it on judges"
I can tell you that only the democrats can block legislation under Pelosi. She has even blocked discussion of the issues and up or down votes.
this is the last one
Pretty contentious, eh? My advice is to engage the brain before putting the mouth into gear.

I will just let that one slide
now Dowadudda if I am being "foolish" please say how if not your just a fan in the stands watching the game

[mrs reb77]

In my History class 1969 the teacher said be observant and anytime the economy goes bad, a Republican will be in office, when the economy does good, a Democrat will be in office.

You say teacher not professor so I'll assume this was high school...

...and as such...you do realize...

your teacher was a ...yeah, not much mystery...democrat? :eek:

[HVAC9900]

Mike The Ductman, congrats for trying to get timebuilder to answer direct questions directly,which he hasn't and won't.

I truly don't mind someone who honestly disagrees, but both parties have to maintain common courtesy,or it just gets ugly.

It's an art ,to say nasty things but sound nice at the same time.
Congrats for developing that "skill".


Blaming those who often suffer the most for OTHERS' actions and decisions. Such as"we are responsible for the vote on these trade agreements,not the politicians who actually put it together,and voted to approve".
It defies logic.
How many people are in congress? Did I vote for all of them? Did I vote for the president?
Taking the group as a whole that elects politicians,and make each person personally responsible for a collective event,as well as all the politicians voting.
How did you get there,except by some misguided idealism that conveniently allows the persons actually responsible to Not be blamed?

Trying to confuse citisens responsibility to choose carefully when they vote,and the politicians responsibility to vote carefully and in the citisens best interests is not correct.
Here's a bit of logic , why is it the politician isn't responsible for his/her actions BUT I AM? We BOTH should be responsible.I am responsible for choosing a good candidate,and that politician is reponsible to do the right thing.

Rules have to apply equally to all.

Unfortunately, it is a common theme in some posts to blame everyone but the persons(and entities) actually responsible.
Saying "it's not the company's fault they went overseas,it's the little stockholder who has 10 or 100 shares". Yeah, like that person has any say in what a major corp does when it has millions of stocks out there.

Yes it would be better if joe average working guy paid more attention to the company(s) that he has stock in( if he/she is fortunate enough to do so);but lets get real here.
Many of the very people blamed in these posts have their retirment/pension/401 in a fund that they have no choice over which stocks are chosen-
So once again the example used sounds kinda OK on the surface, but is not based on the real world. Stop trying to lay blame at the feet of those who have the least to do with the problem,and are often the very ones who feel its greatest negative affects.

If anyone wants to look at the facts from an isntitution that is considered a very good friend of trade agreements, go to the council on foreign relations webiste and read this article.
You will see that 2million jobs have been offshored since 1983.
AND since 2000, there are 12,000-15,000 Jobs EVERY MONTH outsourced abroad!!!!!
Even worse, those numbers are predicted to Rise in this article.

Even though some don't want to admit it, these trade agreements have become a growing source of unrest in the US. Even conservative repubs realise the issue has to be addressed,especially since the last trade agreement attempt(two weeks ago?) was shot down by congress,who has been getting a lot of pressure from-guess who- the voters.

McCain has stated Nafta needs to be changed(this after H Clinton and Obama said it first),so that the SORRY A** retraining program called TAA actually retrains people.
Huhmmm I guess there IS a problem with the job exporting, and the goverments retraining program after all.
No I won't be holding my breath waiting for a simple acknowledgement.

link: www.cfr.org/publication/7749/trade.html#4

The article contains a bias and some of the facts are in dispute, but overall is a decent piece.


Here is another source from the opposite side,but it is a bit older
http://www.epi.org/content.cfm/issuebriefs_ib120

Personally, I get my info from different sources,rather than blindly accepting whatever is spewed by some talking head on obviously biased programs,who have an agenda and will promote it at all costs.

[whec720]

Mike The Ductman, congrats for trying to get timebuilder to answer direct questions directly,which he hasn't and won't.

I truly don't mind someone who honestly disagrees, but both parties have to maintain common courtesy,or it just gets ugly.

It's an art ,to say nasty things but sound nice at the same time.
Congrats for developing that "skill".


Blaming those who often suffer the most for OTHERS' actions and decisions. Such as"we are responsible for the vote on these trade agreements,not the politicians who actually put it together,and voted to approve".
It defies logic.
How many people are in congress? Did I vote for all of them? Did I vote for the president?
Taking the group as a whole that elects politicians,and make each person personally responsible for a collective event,as well as all the politicians voting.
How did you get there,except by some misguided idealism that conveniently allows the persons actually responsible to Not be blamed?

Trying to confuse citisens responsibility to choose carefully when they vote,and the politicians responsibility to vote carefully and in the citisens best interests is not correct.
Here's a bit of logic , why is it the politician isn't responsible for his/her actions BUT I AM? We BOTH should be responsible.I am responsible for choosing a good candidate,and that politician is reponsible to do the right thing.

Rules have to apply equally to all.

Unfortunately, it is a common theme in some posts to blame everyone but the persons(and entities) actually responsible.
Saying "it's not the company's fault they went overseas,it's the little stockholder who has 10 or 100 shares". Yeah, like that person has any say in what a major corp does when it has millions of stocks out there.

Yes it would be better if joe average working guy paid more attention to the company(s) that he has stock in( if he/she is fortunate enough to do so);but lets get real here.
Many of the very people blamed in these posts have their retirment/pension/401 in a fund that they have no choice over which stocks are chosen-
So once again the example used sounds kinda OK on the surface, but is not based on the real world. Stop trying to lay blame at the feet of those who have the least to do with the problem,and are often the very ones who feel its greatest negative affects.

If anyone wants to look at the facts from an isntitution that is considered a very good friend of trade agreements, go to the council on foreign relations webiste and read this article.
You will see that 2million jobs have been offshored since 1983.
AND since 2000, there are 12,000-15,000 Jobs EVERY MONTH outsourced abroad!!!!!
Even worse, those numbers are predicted to Rise in this article.

Even though some don't want to admit it, these trade agreements have become a growing source of unrest in the US. Even conservative repubs realise the issue has to be addressed,especially since the last trade agreement attempt(two weeks ago?) was shot down by congress,who has been getting a lot of pressure from-guess who- the voters.

McCain has stated Nafta needs to be changed(this after H Clinton and Obama said it first),so that the SORRY A** retraining program called TAA actually retrains people.
Huhmmm I guess there IS a problem with the job exporting, and the goverments retraining program after all.
No I won't be holding my breath waiting for a simple acknowledgement.

link: www.cfr.org/publication/7749/trade.html#4

The article contains a bias and some of the facts are in dispute, but overall is a decent piece.


Here is another source from the opposite side,but it is a bit older
http://www.epi.org/content.cfm/issuebriefs_ib120

Personally, I get my info from different sources,rather than blindly accepting whatever is spewed by some talking head on obviously biased programs,who have an agenda and will promote it at all costs.

Driver's syndrome. "I'm a good driver. Everybody else on the road is a moron.":rolleyes:
This is the problem, folks. Its always somebody else.:cool:

[BigJon3475]

Here is quote from a friend that lives down "Cracker's" way, but tours the east a coast and mid west annually as an indie entertainer:


I'm not so sure that I would be as aware of this, had I not been touring the last few years and seen for myself the ruined mills and factories and the farms and other businesses that people have just had to walk away from. It's not as readily apparent in Port Charlotte, which has never had any industry -- it's always been pretty much a service economy. Sure, the contractors and others in the housing industry are hurting, but it's not in your face, the way that an abandoned steel mill is. I always knew that the housing construction industry wouldn't be self-sustaining, though I do feel a little bad for the people who were not that far-sighted. The real tragedy, in my opinion, is that there's nothing else for them to do! That, and the fact that some of the really unscrupulous builders have taken plumbers and A/C folks down with them, owing them tens of thousands of dollars when they decided to declare bankruptcy on their business -- while protecting their personal assets, of course. How can you look your neighbor in the eye after screwing him like that?

This is a view from OUTSIDE the HVAC industry. Some, like my friend here, are perceptive enough to see the trends.


When people start realizing in a free market that when you have huge supplies with less demand things tend to correct themselves it will start to get better....greed won't allow that.

The media is partly to blame for the idea we are in a downward spiral to the fiery depths.

If you look at our debt, GDP, unemployment you will see by standards during a democratic president we would be doing terrific.

I'll say it.....even gas prices are matched up with inflation and are right on with history....all except the carter years.

[HVAC9900]

Hey whec,nice personal attack.
I see you also refuse to honestly address valid points;but instead try to put down the other person.
What part(s) of what I said do you disagree with? I quoted two different sources,one who likes free trade,one who doesn't.

How much thought and work did you put into your reply? Not much.

If you have a good argument by all means,lets hear it.



Originally Posted by HVAC9900
Mike The Ductman, congrats for trying to get timebuilder to answer direct questions directly,which he hasn't and won't.

I truly don't mind someone who honestly disagrees, but both parties have to maintain common courtesy,or it just gets ugly.

It's an art ,to say nasty things but sound nice at the same time.
Congrats for developing that "skill".


Blaming those who often suffer the most for OTHERS' actions and decisions. Such as"we are responsible for the vote on these trade agreements,not the politicians who actually put it together,and voted to approve".
It defies logic.
How many people are in congress? Did I vote for all of them? Did I vote for the president?
Taking the group as a whole that elects politicians,and make each person personally responsible for a collective event,as well as all the politicians voting.
How did you get there,except by some misguided idealism that conveniently allows the persons actually responsible to Not be blamed?

Trying to confuse citisens responsibility to choose carefully when they vote,and the politicians responsibility to vote carefully and in the citisens best interests is not correct.
Here's a bit of logic , why is it the politician isn't responsible for his/her actions BUT I AM? We BOTH should be responsible.I am responsible for choosing a good candidate,and that politician is reponsible to do the right thing.

Rules have to apply equally to all.

Unfortunately, it is a common theme in some posts to blame everyone but the persons(and entities) actually responsible.
Saying "it's not the company's fault they went overseas,it's the little stockholder who has 10 or 100 shares". Yeah, like that person has any say in what a major corp does when it has millions of stocks out there.

Yes it would be better if joe average working guy paid more attention to the company(s) that he has stock in( if he/she is fortunate enough to do so);but lets get real here.
Many of the very people blamed in these posts have their retirment/pension/401 in a fund that they have no choice over which stocks are chosen-
So once again the example used sounds kinda OK on the surface, but is not based on the real world. Stop trying to lay blame at the feet of those who have the least to do with the problem,and are often the very ones who feel its greatest negative affects.

If anyone wants to look at the facts from an isntitution that is considered a very good friend of trade agreements, go to the council on foreign relations webiste and read this article.
You will see that 2million jobs have been offshored since 1983.
AND since 2000, there are 12,000-15,000 Jobs EVERY MONTH outsourced abroad!!!!!
Even worse, those numbers are predicted to Rise in this article.

Even though some don't want to admit it, these trade agreements have become a growing source of unrest in the US. Even conservative repubs realise the issue has to be addressed,especially since the last trade agreement attempt(two weeks ago?) was shot down by congress,who has been getting a lot of pressure from-guess who- the voters.

McCain has stated Nafta needs to be changed(this after H Clinton and Obama said it first),so that the SORRY A** retraining program called TAA actually retrains people.
Huhmmm I guess there IS a problem with the job exporting, and the goverments retraining program after all.
No I won't be holding my breath waiting for a simple acknowledgement.

link: www.cfr.org/publication/7749/trade.html#4

The article contains a bias and some of the facts are in dispute, but overall is a decent piece.


Here is another source from the opposite side,but it is a bit older
http://www.epi.org/content.cfm/issuebriefs_ib120

Personally, I get my info from different sources,rather than blindly accepting whatever is spewed by some talking head on obviously biased programs,who have an agenda and will promote it at all costs.




Whec's reply.


Driver's syndrome. "I'm a good driver. Everybody else on the road is a moron.":rolleyes:
This is the problem, folks. Its always somebody else.:cool:

[The Doctor]

I got into the middle of the cfr article that hvac9900 provided. Boy, if there ever was a house organ for the Fed, the CFR is it.


"There's no evidence that outsourcing caused the recession, and there's no evidence that it's making it worse," says Erica L. Groshen, an assistant vice president at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York. Not all analysts agree with this assessment. Thea Lee, assistant director of public policy at the AFL-CIO, says outsourcing is a major cause of job loss since 2000. And, she says, "outsourcing is one of the causes for the truly dismal job performance since the recession has ended."
News flash for you guys. The Fed causes recessions. At the end of the day, the Fed causes irrational exuberance in investment, and to see CFR articles quoting Fed mouthpieces is adding insult to injury.
Outsourcing is indeed a result of our own choices.
There is an adjustment coming to Americans' standard of living, and it's going to be a bit worse than a pinch, I expect.

[tonys]

"There is no question about it. Wall Street got drunk. The question is, 'How long will it take to sober up and not try to do all these fancy financial instruments?'"
-- George W. Bush, Houston, Texas, July 18, 2008

[acmanko]

Wall Street got drunk because they have to satisfy a whore, all the pension plans that demand 10-15% return on investments. People need to understand its not how much interest the money makes , but how much money is making interest.

[whec720]

Hey whec,nice personal attack.
I see you also refuse to honestly address valid points;but instead try to put down the other person.
What part(s) of what I said do you disagree with? I quoted two different sources,one who likes free trade,one who doesn't.

How much thought and work did you put into your reply? Not much.

If you have a good argument by all means,lets hear it.



Originally Posted by HVAC9900
Mike The Ductman, congrats for trying to get timebuilder to answer direct questions directly,which he hasn't and won't.

I truly don't mind someone who honestly disagrees, but both parties have to maintain common courtesy,or it just gets ugly.

It's an art ,to say nasty things but sound nice at the same time.
Congrats for developing that "skill".


Blaming those who often suffer the most for OTHERS' actions and decisions. Such as"we are responsible for the vote on these trade agreements,not the politicians who actually put it together,and voted to approve".
It defies logic.
How many people are in congress? Did I vote for all of them? Did I vote for the president?
Taking the group as a whole that elects politicians,and make each person personally responsible for a collective event,as well as all the politicians voting.
How did you get there,except by some misguided idealism that conveniently allows the persons actually responsible to Not be blamed?

Trying to confuse citisens responsibility to choose carefully when they vote,and the politicians responsibility to vote carefully and in the citisens best interests is not correct.
Here's a bit of logic , why is it the politician isn't responsible for his/her actions BUT I AM? We BOTH should be responsible.I am responsible for choosing a good candidate,and that politician is reponsible to do the right thing.

Rules have to apply equally to all.

Unfortunately, it is a common theme in some posts to blame everyone but the persons(and entities) actually responsible.
Saying "it's not the company's fault they went overseas,it's the little stockholder who has 10 or 100 shares". Yeah, like that person has any say in what a major corp does when it has millions of stocks out there.

Yes it would be better if joe average working guy paid more attention to the company(s) that he has stock in( if he/she is fortunate enough to do so);but lets get real here.
Many of the very people blamed in these posts have their retirment/pension/401 in a fund that they have no choice over which stocks are chosen-
So once again the example used sounds kinda OK on the surface, but is not based on the real world. Stop trying to lay blame at the feet of those who have the least to do with the problem,and are often the very ones who feel its greatest negative affects.

If anyone wants to look at the facts from an isntitution that is considered a very good friend of trade agreements, go to the council on foreign relations webiste and read this article.
You will see that 2million jobs have been offshored since 1983.
AND since 2000, there are 12,000-15,000 Jobs EVERY MONTH outsourced abroad!!!!!
Even worse, those numbers are predicted to Rise in this article.

Even though some don't want to admit it, these trade agreements have become a growing source of unrest in the US. Even conservative repubs realise the issue has to be addressed,especially since the last trade agreement attempt(two weeks ago?) was shot down by congress,who has been getting a lot of pressure from-guess who- the voters.

McCain has stated Nafta needs to be changed(this after H Clinton and Obama said it first),so that the SORRY A** retraining program called TAA actually retrains people.
Huhmmm I guess there IS a problem with the job exporting, and the goverments retraining program after all.
No I won't be holding my breath waiting for a simple acknowledgement.

link: www.cfr.org/publication/7749/trade.html#4

The article contains a bias and some of the facts are in dispute, but overall is a decent piece.


Here is another source from the opposite side,but it is a bit older
http://www.epi.org/content.cfm/issuebriefs_ib120

Personally, I get my info from different sources,rather than blindly accepting whatever is spewed by some talking head on obviously biased programs,who have an agenda and will promote it at all costs.




Whec's reply.

Man your sensitive...:rolleyes:
Personal attack??:confused: Okey dokey

Think about what I said. I was talking about the "American attitude". That's all of us, not just you.
Have beer and relax.:)

[wolfstrike]

In my History class 1969 the teacher said be observant and anytime the economy goes bad, a Republican will be in office, when the economy does good, a Democrat will be in office.

you'll also notice, that when ever a republican gives you a tax cut, the liberals act like it's the end of the world, because if they don't take more money from you, that means somethig somewhere is going to crash.
...or so we're told

you'll also notice, that when Bill Clinton was in office, expenses were skyrocketing, ...gasoline, healthcare, taxes, but all we saw on TV was "how great the economy is"


you'll also notice, that when Clinton was in office, the media had a talent for making people believe the National Debt was paid off, when it increased, just like every other president.


so yeah, i can see how some people will think things are better when a democrat is in office

[mikethe ductman]

you'll also notice, that when ever a republican gives you a tax cut, the liberals act like it's the end of the world, because if they don't take more money from you, that means somethig somewhere is going to crash.
...or so we're told

you'll also notice, that when Bill Clinton was in office, expenses were skyrocketing, ...gasoline, healthcare, taxes, but all we saw on TV was "how great the economy is"


you'll also notice, that when Clinton was in office, the media had a talent for making people believe the National Debt was paid off, when it increased, just like every other president.


i can see how some people will think things are better when a democrat is in office

Your lack of knowalge is as bad or worse then my spelling and grammer
tax cuts are nice but if you think that the repubs cut taxs think again
the US gov. is a money hungery monster and has gotten a whole lot fatter in the last 8 years
when they lower taxs and increase spending the debt goes up, and when America can't pay for the goods it gets then the people that make the goods charge % making the debt go even higher making the value of a $ go lower meaning every thing we buy cost more $'s, that is part of the reason oil cost so much "only part of the reason"
as for when clinton was in office I remember gas being 70 cents a gallon I had more work than I could handle and he never sent me a check to kick start the economy
As for the media making people think that clinton wiped out the national debt
you make your self look like a fool saying that, he "as in clinton" came close to balancing the budget , the national debt is all the debt we have accumalated through out the years, balancing the budget means not spending more than you take in that year"which means less $ paid on % which means a stronger $ which means less $'s paid for goods.
If you remember george bush senior raised taxs while he was perz he saw how the debt was killing us after the reagan tax cuts. bush sr. got the ball going and clinton scored the touchdown.
I give bush sr. credit he fell on the sword for his country besides carter bringing home all the hostages alive I can't remember a prez taking one for the country.

LETS TRY TO ACT LIKE GROWN UPS IF YOU WANT TO CALL ME STUPID OR A DUMB A** PLEASE SAY WHY YOU DON'T AGREE WITH WHAT I HAVE SAID.

[oloenneker]

If mike the duct man could figure out his keyboard, he could give all you knuckleheads a run for your money.

Spot on Mike. That is the problem with the USA.

You should ignore Wolfstrike. He is the resident moron, and everyone knows it, except for wolfstrike.