Housing & Economic Recovery Act 2008

[batdude]

http://www.solari.com/archive/housing_bill/



quite an article. a unifying theory on why something in Denmark
actually IS quite rotten. since the Constitution is dead and laws don't matter deficits dont matter either, plus all the rules are malleable save one,
heads they win tails you lose

[ga-hvac-tech]

I will have to read this more thoroughly, but I can tell you that the author is a respected professional in the financial community. I have read her writings for many years, her opinion is worth listening to.

[tunnel_rat]

Great, as usual, the almighty Gov't will pay for everything. Problem is they're using your and my money for it....

They are MY employees and I never authorized that.:mad:

Line 'em up..............................................no blindfolds either........:mad:

[oloenneker]

Great, as usual, the almighty Gov't will pay for everything. Problem is they're using your and my money for it....

They are MY employees and I never authorized that.:mad:

Line 'em up..............................................no blindfolds either........:mad:


Actually, this is the effect of flawed Reagan era policies in regards to privatizing parts of Roosevelt's "New Deal"...We should have seen the writing on the wall.

Can you imagine what could happen if we privatize Social Security? Once again, we would be in this kind of mess. Some things are better left when run by the government.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Actually, this is the effect of flawed Reagan era policies in regards to privatizing parts of Roosevelt's "New Deal"...We should have seen the writing on the wall.

Can you imagine what could happen if we privatize Social Security? Once again, we would be in this kind of mess. Some things are better left when run by the government.

Well, lessee if I can start a posting war here... :D

The problem was when FDR federalized programs in the first place. Reagan tried to un-do a failed system... but a bunch of whiners that want a free ride just could not handle that... and a government drunk on the power that comes from promising a free ride. The government that governs least, governs best. You see, it is not about how much I have, it is about where I get it from. And getting it from the government is not a good source, regardless of what or how much one gets. And here is a test of the term 'conservative'; A true conservative understands the previous statement.

[oloenneker]

Well, lessee if I can start a posting war here... :D

The problem was when FDR federalized programs in the first place. Reagan tried to un-do a failed system... but a bunch of whiners that want a free ride just could not handle that... and a government drunk on the power that comes from promising a free ride. The government that governs least, governs best. You see, it is not about how much I have, it is about where I get it from. And getting it from the government is not a good source, regardless of what or how much one gets. And here is a test of the term 'conservative'; A true conservative understands the previous statement.


Well, if Reagan fixed a broken system (That lasted longer than the current private system) why do we have to give them a government welfare style bail out when they are no longer profitable? That seems like the opposite of what you guys preach.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Well, if Reagan fixed a broken system (That lasted longer than the current private system) why do we have to give them a government welfare style bail out when they are no longer profitable? That seems like the opposite of what you guys preach.

Well, that is an interesting analysis... But IMO FDR messed up a system that worked for over a century... so who broke what??? There are things more important than money and gains. But a liberal would not understand that one... :p

[oloenneker]

Well, that is an interesting analysis... But IMO FDR messed up a system that worked for over a century... so who broke what???
How exactly did FDR mess things up? Looking out for the "commons" is a bad thing? :confused::confused::confused: I guess thats something a conservative can't bend a few synapses around.:cool:

There is a reason why changes where made by FDR, and if he had not, the USA would have never been as strong as it is today.


There are things more important than money and gains. But a liberal would not understand that one... :p

Thats and odd statement. Usually that all that the conservatives worry about. I mean, isn't all that big business is all about??

[ga-hvac-tech]

Well Ollie,

It would appear there is a crack in your logic here... ;)

You see, looking out for folks is NOT the government's job, it is the job of the individual to look out for themselves. The problem was and is too much power in the hands of the government. But greed for power is as old as humans, so only folks that are above being compromised by $$$ could really rule fairly.

And as usual, folks judge conservatives by the actions of folks that are not true conservatives.

Lets say this again: A TRUE conservative believes that less government is better government regardless of who gains or looses. Any person that says different is not a true conservative, regardless of what they say.

[oloenneker]

Well Ollie,

It would appear there is a crack in your logic here... ;)



Depends. Like comparing what you think is sound. Not a crack.



You see, looking out for folks is NOT the government's job, it is the job of the individual to look out for themselves. The problem was and is too much power in the hands of the government. But greed for power is as old as humans, so only folks that are above being compromised by $$$ could really rule fairly.

I disagree. It is the governments responsibility to protect the interests of the "commons". If we eliminate that responsibility, we put our selves in grave danger of letting the big corporations set the standards of what is acceptable. Imagine if the FDA was privatized. How about the USDA? Can you imagine that? you don't think that they would let a little oversight and testing get in the way of making a profit, do you?

Here is a neat little essay to make my point.


A Day in the Life of Joe Conservative*

Joe gets up at 6 a.m. and fills his coffeepot with water to prepare
his morning coffee. The water is clean and good because some tree-
hugging liberal fought for minimum water-quality standards. With his
first swallow of water, he takes his daily medication. His medications
are safe to take because some stupid commie liberal fought to ensure
their safety and that they work as advertised.

All but $10 of his medications are paid for by his employer's medical
plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for
paid medical insurance -- now Joe gets it, too.

He prepares his morning breakfast: bacon and eggs. Joe's bacon is safe
to eat because some girly-man liberal fought for laws to regulate the
meat packing industry.

In the morning shower, Joe reaches for his shampoo. His bottle is
properly labeled with each ingredient and its amount in the total
contents because some crybaby liberal fought for his right to know
what he was putting on his body and how much it contained.

Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he
breathes is clean because some environmentalist wacko liberal fought
for the laws to stop industries from polluting our air.

He walks on the government-provided sidewalk to the subway station for
his government-subsidized ride to work. It saves him considerable
money in parking and transportation fees because some fancy-pants
liberal fought for affordable public transportation, which gives
everyone the opportunity to be a contributor.

Joe begins his work day. He has a good job with excellent pay, medical
benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some lazy
liberal union members fought and died for these working standards.
Joe's employer pays these standards because Joe's employer doesn't
want his employees to call the union.

If Joe is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed, he'll get a worker
compensation or unemployment checks because some stupid liberal didn't
think he should lose his home because of his temporary misfortune.

It is noontime and Joe needs to make a bank deposit so he can pay some
bills. Joe's deposit is federally insured by the FSLIC because some
godless liberal wanted to protect Joe's money from unscrupulous
bankers who ruined the banking system before the Great Depression.

Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae-underwritten mortgage and his below-
market federal student loan because some elitist liberal decided that
Joe and the government would be better off if he was educated and
earned more money over his lifetime. Joe also forgets that in addition
to his federally subsidized student loans, he attended a state funded
university.

Joe is home from work. He plans to visit his father this evening at
his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive. His
car is among the safest in the world because some America-hating
liberal fought for car safety standards to go along with the taxpayer
funded roads.

He arrives at his boyhood home. His was the third generation to live
in the house financed by Farmers' Home Administration because bankers
didn't want to make rural loans.

The house didn't have electricity until some big-government liberal
stuck his nose where it didn't belong and demanded rural
electrification.

He is happy to see his father, who is now retired. His father lives on
Social Security and a union pension because some wine-drinking, cheese-
eating liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe wouldn't
have to.

Joe gets back in his car for the ride home, and turns on a radio talk
show. The radio host keeps saying that liberals are bad and
conservatives are good. He doesn't mention that the beloved
conservatives have fought against every protection and benefit Joe
enjoys throughout his day. Joe agrees: "We don't need those big-
government liberals ruining our lives! After all, I'm a self-made man
who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like I
have."
.




And as usual, folks judge conservatives by the actions of folks that are not true conservatives.

Lets say this again: A TRUE conservative believes that less government is better government regardless of who gains or looses. Any person that says different is not a true conservative, regardless of what they say.

The problem with the conservative view point is that it is self destructive to everyone except for the upper 1% of the population. If you like living in a third world country, then your ideal is fantastic. Personally, I like living in a country that contains a healthy and vibrant middle class. If we go on your ideal, we lose that middle class, and become a nation that only has upper class and lower class. Sort of like Russia in the 1890's. Fantastic. No wonder people believed in what Lenin had to say. Take the upper class, shoot them in the head, and spread their wealth.
Now, that is a little extreme, but not by that far of a stretch. Just look at the misery Reagan's "Trickle Down Economics" provided. It's dangerous and destructive to a vibrant and productive population. Then it exploded in H.W. Bush's face, and we got Clinton, that never reversed Reagan's huge insult to the American people. Instead, now, thanks to Reagan, Bush, Clinton, and W. the American middle class is burdened with the majority of the tax bas, when before Reagan, it was the burden of the Corporations.

Just some thoughts.

[ga-hvac-tech]

It is the governments responsibility to protect the interests of the "commons".

IMO, herein lies the basic difference between your views and mine. I believe the opposite; that folks need to take care of themselves.


If we eliminate that responsibility, we put our selves in grave danger of letting the big corporations set the standards of what is acceptable. Imagine if the FDA was privatized. How about the USDA? Can you imagine that? you don't think that they would let a little oversight and testing get in the way of making a profit, do you?

This would be a different thread, but from the L O N G research I have done, both of the government agencies you mention are literally IN the pocket of private businesses. And yes, the private businesses make a HUGE profit from their cozy situation with government.




Just some thoughts.

I remember a year ago, you and I had a few discussions and came to the point that we were not really that far apart on many things.

The major area you and I are on different (opposite) pages is on big government controlling things.

Now in the countless discussions I have had on this topic over many decades, I find that few of them led to a change of viewpoint. SOOO, how about lets agree to dis-agree and go on.

Have a GREAT one!

[acmanko]

Any so called Finacial Expert today is just as inept as the the next. They only know how to grease the wheels. But Heaven help us if the wheel stops turning.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Any so called Finacial Expert today is just as inept as the the next. They only know how to grease the wheels. But Heaven help us if the wheel stops turning.

I am not sure if the comment is looking for discussion, or truely wondering of there are any honest folks in the financial community...

What I can say is that I read something close to 20 hours a week of financial stuff, and have done so for well over a decade. That works out to over 10,000 hours of financial reading in the last decade alone. One learns from all that consumption of information which authors know there stuff, and which ones are 'full of it'... Those are my reasons for supporting Cathrine Austin Fitts.

[The Doctor]

Ms. Fitts' articles may be written about a market, but it ain't a free market. It is as Alan Greenspan put it, a highly regulated market.

Who is doing the regulation? That is the fight we're witnessing, sometimes between the "Democan" and the "Republicrat", sometimes between the left and the right,

but mostly with someone else's money...

The Fed allows the creation of money out of thin air, and we're supposed to be surprised by any of (what's in Ms. Fitts' articles)this ???

[ga-hvac-tech]

Ms. Fitts' articles may be written about a market, but it ain't a free market. It is as Alan Greenspan put it, a highly regulated market.

Who is doing the regulation? That is the fight we're witnessing, sometimes between the "Democan" and the "Republicrat", sometimes between the left and the right,

but mostly with someone else's money...

The Fed allows the creation of money out of thin air, and we're supposed to be surprised by any of (what's in Ms. Fitts' articles)this ???

So how many times does someone have to tell folks that government is corrupt, until folks quit looking for a free lunch and start dis-trusting government? The answer might be some 'real' change...

[oloenneker]

I remember a year ago, you and I had a few discussions and came to the point that we were not really that far apart on many things.

The major area you and I are on different (opposite) pages is on big government controlling things.

Now in the countless discussions I have had on this topic over many decades, I find that few of them led to a change of viewpoint. SOOO, how about lets agree to dis-agree and go on.

Have a GREAT one!


LOL, of course, when presented with the facts, the real conservative bows out.

No biggie, we have had this conversation before. You're right. I believe in what I believe in, and you are just misguided.:o:D

But.... That is what is great about America!!! We can disagree politically, and still be "Americans" regardless.:D

[ga-hvac-tech]

LOL, of course, when presented with the facts, the real conservative bows out.

No biggie, we have had this conversation before. You're right. I believe in what I believe in, and you are just misguided.:o:D

But.... That is what is great about America!!! We can disagree politically, and still be "Americans" regardless.:D

And the curious difference between a newbie in this great country and a true American with wisdom and understanding is that the latter does not have to have the last word... :D:p:)

No, I did not bow out... Rather it seemed that carrying on the discussion would not bear any fruit (come to a higher understanding).

From decades of debating, I have repeatedly observed this curious behavior trait (and it is misguided IMO) This idea that the one who has the last word won the discussion and therefore is 'right'. What this idea is really saying is that the one with the strongest personality (or the most obnoxious one) is right... Following this logic, then a loud person with no education or understanding (maybe even a fool on a hill) that simply will not shut-up, that person must be right... ;) Seems there are a lot of politicians that manage to use this misguided principle to get elected.

No, rather I think wisdom is a higher understanding than logic or debating skills. But wisdom requires an understanding of things beyond oneself; IMO herein lies the catch that many folks will not step beyond.

Have a GREAT one Ollie.

[Remodeltdt01]

Well Ollie,
Lets say this again: A TRUE conservative believes that less government is better government regardless of who gains or looses. Any person that says different is not a true conservative, regardless of what they say.

So a true conservative is a Libertarian. :p

[oloenneker]

And the curious difference between a newbie in this great country and a true American with wisdom and understanding is that the latter does not have to have the last word... :D:p:)


Well, Buddy, I was going to take that with a grain of salt. But really? Newbie to this country?? I have lived in this country for over 25 years. I hardly think that makes one a "newbile".:cool: Especially when I decided to get an AS in Poli Sci. (I know, it's a useless degree, whatever, I am still turning wrenches) How can you blame me for being attracted to forums like this one?;)




No, I did not bow out... Rather it seemed that carrying on the discussion would not bear any fruit (come to a higher understanding).



Or perhaps you where afraid that I would shed some light?!?:eek:




From decades of debating, I have repeatedly observed this curious behavior trait (and it is misguided IMO) This idea that the one who has the last word won the discussion and therefore is 'right'. What this idea is really saying is that the one with the strongest personality (or the most obnoxious one) is right... Following this logic, then a loud person with no education or understanding (maybe even a fool on a hill) that simply will not shut-up, that person must be right... ;) Seems there are a lot of politicians that manage to use this misguided principle to get elected.

No, rather I think wisdom is a higher understanding than logic or debating skills. But wisdom requires an understanding of things beyond oneself; IMO herein lies the catch that many folks will not step beyond.

Have a GREAT one Ollie.

Hey, look, olde buddy, I was just trying to razz ya into further discussions on "the issues". I firmly believe, just like you, that the last word is not always the "best" word. :)