How long would this job take you?????

[jim2005]

I have worked non-Union my whole life and I have recently taken a job were i am now the boss at a Union shop. I know how long this job would have taken me but I am told that I am not being unrealistic, what are your thoughts?
I am not asking for a price or want to know how to do this just job, but your experience on how long a valve plate replacement would take for you to complete if the job went smoothly, and if it did not go smoothly the quote covered that issue.

The Job...

It’s a built up system with an O6E compressor.

(1) Replace all 3 valves plates, (top, left, right)
(2) Replace the oil
(3) Replace the pressure relief
(4) Replace the (2) 75Amp contactors
(5) Start and check operation, no other issues and leave.
(6) The valve plates have core charges and need to be returned

• The building elevator will take you up the top floor you will have to schlep up 20 steeps to the roof.
• You pick up your needed parts (2) days earlier while on another job.
• The drier was not replaced.
• The compressor was not painted when the work was completed.
• Mechanical room was left broom swept clean.
• All other normal procedures were followed.
• This is your account were you have performed the maintenance for years so you know the system and exactly how it works.
• Compressor was valved off.

[wspascoe]

Well inever have done that exact job but I wopuld have to say 4 to 6 hours based on a compressor changeout. I guess it also depends on how much people can multi task. I work with this tech who can only do things one at a time so if he is recovering refrigerant that is what he is doing watching the machine suck out the refirgerant he couldnt move over and change out the contactors like allot of other people. It is not that he is lazy he just cant focus on more than one thing.

[flange]

I would price it at two man days, plus parts and reclaim cylinder. Technically you must reclaim the refrigerant inside the compressor, the valve plates are pretty much just not and bolt deal, and the oil may require a special pump if you dont have one. I just had a man replace knig valves, oil sight glass gaskets, oil, oil pump, and repair a leaky tube in a condenser on a two hundred tonner. It took him three days, but that also included pulling the entire charge, adjusting the Tx valves because they were so out of whach, evacuating and recharging. This was a strict manufacturing environment where everything had to be approved prior to actually doing it.

[amickracing]

I would agree with the 2 days. I've never done this exact job, but I've pulled the head off of the smaller version, and tore a huge one apart.

1st day you should be able to get 90% of the work done, maybe even get it on the vac pump by then.

The 2nd day would be going over what you did, making sure it's right, final clean up (always leave the job site cleaner than when you came), and fire it up. I wouldn't count on firing it up and it working perfect, there will likely be some tweaks to be made. While you're there check the safeties (oil psi, high/low psi etc). Nothing worse than one of those not working and taking out a compressor you just fixed, then trying to explain it.

I'd bet even though the 2nd day was planned as some what of a slack day since most of the work would be done the 1st day, you'll end up putting in a full day on the 2nd day too.

[Jshanl]

Two man days.Can you let us know how long this job actually took? I'm very interested to know what the answer is as this sounds like its gonna be a union bashing thread by the looks of the first sentence of the post.

[TAC Service]

We do this work alot and it would be 8 hours on the job and 4 hours for PUD (Pick-up & delivery) if we had to be competitive. If its our account and nobody is bidding against us its 16 hours. Is the relief the internal relief in the compressor or the external one that is normally in the liquid line? If its the external relief and the refrigerant has to be pulled out that would add hours.

[jim2005]

Well lets go through the job

(1) Move parts and tools to the roof
(2) Pump down, remove remaining refrigerant, drain oil, pump in new oil (has an oil drain)
(3) R/R top valve plate remove old gasket material, inspect damage
(4) R/R right valve plate remove old gasket material, inspect for damage
(5) R/R left valve plate remove old gasket material, inspect for damage
(6) R/R pressure relief remove old gasket material
(7) Leak check (pressure check) and start on contactor R/R
(8) Evacuate and Finish contactor R/R, Start the clean up
(9) Start and check system
(10) Clean up, pack up, do paperwork

i have done this job a few times. i am not trying to knock my union guys but trying to get a idea of what is common from others who are also familiar with this job(I may be the exception and not the rule). i dont want to skew the results any more than i already have so if you could please bear with me i will hold back on how long it really took for a bit longer.

[jim2005]

We do this work alot and it would be 8 hours on the job and 4 hours for PUD (Pick-up & delivery) if we had to be competitive. If its our account and nobody is bidding against us its 16 hours. Is the relief the internal relief in the compressor or the external onethat is normally in the liquid line? If its the external relief and the refrigerant has to be pulled out that would add hours.


the relief is in the compressor
thanks

[n-e-w Jerz!]

45 Kabillion seconds.....

[mrhvacmechanic]

Just a few other thoughts to keep in mind here which add to the job time:

1) comp is valved off, recovery still needed
2) oil has to be pumped or siphoned out and refilled
3) valve plates might just come of, but sometimes gaskets stick and
may take a little time to clean.
4) how excessible is the compressor?? I know you said built up system??
5) inspection before installing new plates.
6) tourqe the valve bolts properly.

I would figure two days, not rushing the job. We all know some times we run into an obsticle on all jobs. No disrespect here, how effecient is the mechanic doing the job? Some are faster than others.
I usually tell my office to figure a certian amount of time and if we get the job done sooner, tell the customer we will give him a credit on the labor.
You make your cost of the job and your not ripping him off for additional labor. I beleive he will feel better n knowing you were honest with him.

[ON-CALL]

Jim I would say also 2 days but dont forget ambiant of the mech. rm and who the tech is cause even thou it is union shop you should still have your GO TO guys for tight jobs and guys who just do inspections.If you don't have a GO TO guy yet you better find him.

[absrbrtek]

WOW, your good!!!!! Your going to pull out a 300# plus compressor, get the old one out and down the 20 stairs. Then drag a new one up 20 stairs, evac and do the rest of the work in 4 to 6 man hours? This is a joke right?
Well inever have done that exact job but I wopuld have to say 4 to 6 hours based on a compressor changeout. I guess it also depends on how much people can multi task. I work with this tech who can only do things one at a time so if he is recovering refrigerant that is what he is doing watching the machine suck out the refirgerant he couldnt move over and change out the contactors like allot of other people. It is not that he is lazy he just cant focus on more than one thing.

[hands]

To be safe, I would say two days and any additional problems found while doing the work would be extra. I have seen alot of compressors where the service valves didn't hold, in this case you would have to recover the entire charge.

[absrbrtek]

I would have bid 2 man days.

[mustardman]

I would have bid 20 hours and done the job in 16. Besides if I say I need 20 they are only gonna give me 16 anyways. I like to throw the f@@k factor in up front cause its easier to give money back to the customer than ask for more. (yes we do do that). 4 to 6 hrs whoever said that you are a sales guy right??. Its gonna take you 4 hours to get your cylinder and recovery plus half your truck up there just to do the job.

[Freezeking2000]

I would have bid 2 man days.

I think I would have had another 1/2 day to drop the parts off and pick up parts.

I think you could have installed a new pump for a little more.

[overhaul]

The job sounds straight forward to me. I am one of the guys that gets it gone, and right, no short cuts. The big thing I find with any bid is a detailed bid and comunicate with the customer. If any thing comes up its extra. Customers have no problem paying for the unexpected just keep them informed along the way.

[Milk man]

I haven't a clue, but would like to know.

Are we talking about valve plates?

[amickracing]

Just curious... and it's been said before...

Why not just change out the compressor? I'm sure $$ is a factor... but we almost always try to swap out the compressors vs repair them. Lil better warranty and likelihood of them working lol

[Dallas Duster]

Changing out valve plates on a troubled compressor can turn you from a hero to a zero in a hurry. Best to take the time do it right the first and not over a second time.

[ersham]

I have changed these out many times, but why are you changing valve plates on this compressor? you can usually valve off compressor recover whats inside and pull valve plates in couple hours.
and if you havent pulled them already to confirm compressor pistons and rods are still good then. I would say 4 days. 1 day to pull valve plates and find bad compressor. 1 day for customer to accept new bid. 1 day 2 guys install new compressor and 1 day to figure out why you are replacing the compressor so you dont have to do it again.

[DPSwitch]

WOW, your good!!!!! Your going to pull out a 300# plus compressor, get the old one out and down the 20 stairs. Then drag a new one up 20 stairs, evac and do the rest of the work in 4 to 6 man hours? This is a joke right?

Thats what I was thinking....... an 06e can hurt you........ lol

[y7turbo]

Im only wondering why a manager is using the internet to ask how long a job should take. If you have done the job before, again why are you asking you already know! Trying to get backup to bust peoples balls at your new manager job? Why did you even bring the union/non-union thing into your post? what does that have to do with anything?

None of us have seen the actual job to see what time consuming factors are present. Some places that can take 12 hours some places it can take 24 hours. As a service manager as you state you are, dont you know that?

[mikesands]

32 hours if it goes well, could be as long as 48, geez you got a minimum of 8 hours of start up and check out after the physical work is done. I would be skeptical of any company that did that job in less than 32 man hours.

[blackbelt3677]

I too would definately figure 20 hours for this job. 1 journeyman 1 apprentice 1 day. 4 hours cushion. I would prefer t&m as this job can get sh_tty really fast if quoted and not done rite. Please do not forget. Do it rite the first time!!! I get the feeling that you're guy took too long.

[y7turbo]

I get the feeling that you're guy took too long.


I get the feeling he THINKS his guy took to long.

[jim2005]

I appreciate many of those that read the question and answered. Those that answered the question brought up some good points and I have thought about what was mentioned.
A few others need to go back to school and learn how to comprehend what you may read or just read more thoroughly, enough said.

The job was bid at 12hr. I, yes I have completed the job in 10hr’s to include painting the compressor when finished (attention to the details is important). The tech finished the job in 17hr, he did not have any problems, said the job went smoothly.

Back history; the job was originally bid at 16hr but the customer questioned the job because another compressor, a couple of months ago, had the same work done by another tech in 10hr, so I had a hard time justifying a job that is now getting close to doubling in price from the previous job. So I drop it down to 12hr giving the tech 2 more hours than the previous tech/previous job.

This shop has had a salesmen (salesmen is plural) in the service manager position for over 10 years. Those in management did not know how long things should take (my opinion follows) so the techs have been milking the jobs. I am trying to not say to these techs that I can do it faster to many times, that would piss me off if I was still in the field, But they are milking the jobs. These guys seem to be thinking that taking an hour here or there is no big deal but it hurting the bottom line, and I am old school so I also think they a stealing from the company.

I mentioned union only because in my experience union jobs seem to go longer than the jobs I and other non-union techs seem to do. So I thought “union” was an important factor of figuring out the hours for this job, was I was wrong? The job did come in around 2 days as many mentioned. I am still under the opinion that time was wasted.

Again I thank those that have done this job and have taken the time to give me there opinions. I also thank those that mentioned good points.

[amickracing]

One other lil tidbit I'll add in about how I bid some jobs (like this one)...

I generally guesstamate by the half day. If I think it'll take me 10 hours, I'll round it up to 12 to make it half a day. if it's 9, I'll rethink it really hard and see if there's a way I can get it done in 8.

Not sure why, but that seems to work out best. Besides, if I happen to get done early, like other's have said, that $$ can be refunded. Or if I need to clean my van, I have a few extra minutes (not hours, maybe 30 minutes) to clean it and get paid.

[The Doctor]

So to answer the OP question, I would say two days. And it sounds like you are being unrealistic. What if all the things that could go wrong actually do? If they don't (need more time)you sell that to the customer by "giving them something back".

I did this job on some little 06Ds which were on a roof (thru the space to fixed ladder)and I would say 2 days is minimum, and IS optimistic.

And our area OSHA gang was already on the warpath, and in the last two weeks a highway construction worker died (falling) and a utility worker got electrocuted, so they're going to be rabid about fall protection and arc flash protection.
So I'm asking, are they rabid around your way, and would that make a difference too??? Just asking

[jrbenny]

Im only wondering why a manager is using the internet to ask how long a job should take. If you have done the job before, again why are you asking you already know! Trying to get backup to bust peoples balls at your new manager job? Why did you even bring the union/non-union thing into your post? what does that have to do with anything?

None of us have seen the actual job to see what time consuming factors are present. Some places that can take 12 hours some places it can take 24 hours. As a service manager as you state you are, dont you know that?
He's asking for some additional input.

It's called not being a cowboy and making sure you're not jumping for no reason.

Try it once in a while. Might find you're not so damn smart after all.

[JRINJAX]

We do this work alot and it would be 8 hours on the job and 4 hours for PUD (Pick-up & delivery) if we had to be competitive. If its our account and nobody is bidding against us its 16 hours. Is the relief the internal relief in the compressor or the external one that is normally in the liquid line? If its the external relief and the refrigerant has to be pulled out that would add hours.
Same here, 8 hours plus time for PU/DEL. Why do you have to return the valve plates? Even under warranty Carrier usually lets us field-scrap them.
Make sure that you have the tool to pull out the pressure relief valve or a humongous screw driver.

[flange]

So you pick up materials, lug up your tools, reclaim refrigerant properly, perform the work, evacuate the system correctly, paint the compressor, clean up area, clean up tools, and do start up in ten hours. Well, you are at the top of the trade and should be proud. Not everyone is perfect, and two days is a very realistic timeframe. I personally dont bill my clients in two hour increments, four hours minimum, so that would equate to twelve at the least.

[Randy S.]

The two day figure seems good, as an estimate.
Sounds like it came out within reason.

I'd be interested in how you feel that time was wasted.

[Pneuma]

Back history; the job was originally bid at 16hr but the customer questioned the job because another compressor, a couple of months ago, had the same work done by another tech in 10hr, so I had a hard time justifying a job that is now getting close to doubling in price from the previous job. So I drop it down to 12hr giving the tech 2 more hours than the previous tech/previous job.

Now here is the heart of the matter. I cannot rememember when I didn't regret giving in to a customer in this way. Maybe because when it bites you in the ass, which it always seem to do, it's such a sting as opposed to just missing an estimate because you forgot something. IMHO I would not have come off the two day estimate for the customer. I know all situations are different and all that. But there a whole lot of sales pitches I can come up with to justify my price, when in fact it is the right price, which 16 hours is in this case. There is inherent risk to any bid service job and you cannot just back off the price so easily. Not to be critical of you, it's just I've been down that road before.

Also one rule of sales is never give without getting. So you could say, I'll do this one in ten hours for you but "give a service contract", or " ok but sign that quote for such and such I sent you last month".

Outside of that in terms of what should the job take, you have to worry about the tech being slow because he gave some tool to some other tech, the dispathcer calls him off to run a hot call, the vendor sends you the wrong gasket, the engineer didn't unlock the door, yada yada yada. That crap hits you and you think about the time you gave back and smoke rolls out of your ears. :D

Good luck and wlecome to the other side!

[hvacpope]

thats an 8 hours job, probably the union cat took one hour lunch, several breaks and shoot the crap with anyone willing to listen, welcome to the union world, enjoy your hair while you can:D

[Coolmaniac]

I would have said 8 also, but I still under estimate things more than I like. So I would think 10 – 12 would be reasonable. And just to even things out, had a co-worker at a non union shop, who was caught twice sleeping in his van. And had complaints from several customers about how much time he spent in the van, out in their parking lots. So having someone wasting time is universal.

[flange]

For those of you who think you can do this job CORRECTLY in eight hours I say bravo. But remember you are not always the man on the job. to carry all of the tools, parts, reclaim cylinder etc up to the roof, and then back down its two hours. Setting up the reclaim and getting out the gas one half, nut and bolt work say one and one half including scraping gaskets, changing contactors three quarters, evacuation...depends, oil change, waiting for elevator both ways, finding parking and loading/unloading tools, this is a long day to do everything right with no stopppage, and if everything goes perfect. Two days is the right number in any other scenario. No one has talked about lockout/tagout, start up, and verification. Is this flooding back and thats what broke the valves in the first place? Do you care after changing valve plates? I hope so. I stand by the two day estimate, and if one of the other local contractors wants to do it for one go for it......call us when you want it fixed the right way.

[ON-CALL]

Now that you cut hours once for this cust. they will try it again learn the words( NOT TO EXCEED) in your quote.

[drivewizard]

You guys that boast about doing it in 8 hours crack me up. Who are you trying to impress? Do you think that the customer or your Boss will give a damn about you when you get closer to retirement age and your back is hurting, your knees are shot, hips are arthritic, etc, etc.
I am not saying this job couldn't be done in less than two days, but why try? Take time to do the job right, and enjoy your work.
I have been there, done that on non-union jobs, you bust your ass so you look better than the other guy who took X hours to do the same job last time. Or you bust ass cuz your boss is a Richard Head, and you don't want to get a raft of Shiite from him, cuz he did a "similar" job in half the time it took you.
Where does it get you in the long run? Your Mental and physical health is sacrificed, so your boss can get a new boat,or car, house, beach house, or Fill in the blank.

At our company we (techs) bid our own jobs, so we dictate how many hours are sold.
The saleman really doesn't get involved in parts or hours. So if we under estimate the hours it takes we (the techs) usually take it in the shorts.

If the customer doesn't like our price, they can go to cheap charley and then we usually end up doing the work again anyway. It might be a year later, but customers usually come around after learning the hard way that cheaper is usually not better.
I guess the point is : Sell quality, not Quantity. Unless, you are in a large enough market that repeat business is not needed. Then, I guess just blow and go, As*holes and elbows, get in and get out, get your money while you can. :D

[y7turbo]

He's asking for some additional input.

If hes already done the job himself, why ask for additional input on the time it takes? He already knows. Just like we tell DIY homeowners no pricing, we cant tell this guy how long a job should take. Different situations take different amounts of time. Anyone who does commercial/industrial should know this. some jobs go faster than others, its just the way the business is. This guy should know this. Maybe this tech was just slower because he hasnt done this work before or only done it a couple times, did he talk about that?


It's called not being a cowboy and making sure you're not jumping for no reason.

This guy is trying to be a cowboy. He said he was a manager in a new company, now hes talking about union jobs taking longer and he used to do them so much faster. Hes looking to clean up shop over there, if it needs it or not.



Try it once in a while. Might find you're not so damn smart after all.

LOL try reading between the lines, Might find out you're not so damn smart after all.

[jrbenny]

I know that I don't know it all.

I ask for help.

I also don't come here acting like an ass towards someone that is asking for input.

Try actually reading the post instead of reading between the lines.

[y7turbo]

I know that I don't know it all.

I ask for help.

I also don't come here acting like an ass towards someone that is asking for input.

Try actually reading the post instead of reading between the lines.

I dont know it all either and i also ask for help.... often

I read the post. here are the cliff notes for you

New manager thinks union jobs take longer
He used to do them so much faster when he was non-union
wants idea from other people on how long it should take.
He wont tell us how long he thinks it should take because he us unsure of himself.
thinks tech wasted time but no proof so he has to go on the internet to MAYBE hear what he wants.



**** if im wrong about this guy im sorry, I dont think i am though. We all know things come off different sometimes when typing it on the internet.

[Randy S.]

I'll put my money on slow and steady.

I've seen enough of Mr. Zoom.

[y7turbo]

just wondering, you said your guys had been out there before on another compressor changing valve plates and now this one.

what was the real problem that caused all of this mess?

[timebuilder]

I'll put my money on slow and steady.

I've seen enough of Mr. Zoom.

When you are low on your time in the bid, and you force a worker to meet your artificial deadline, safety is often compromised as a fear or retribution makes that worker cut corners and act more impulsively. As if that were not bad enough, you can end up with a situation that requires a second visit to correct a problem that would have been far more economical to correct (or, prevent) during the initial visit.

As the saying goes, why is there always enough time to fix it later, but never enough time to do it right the first time?

If you let each tech find their own speed that brings the best results, the lack of callbacks will more than pay for that in reduced cost, less stress, and better planning of future schedules.

[hands]

Some of you guys think that jim2005 shouldn't be asking this question, but I don't see any thing wrong with it. I think he is trying to get an idea of how long the average guy would take to do the job so he can estimate jobs better.
Jim2005 said that union jobs take longer than non-union and well I tend to agree with him. I have worked for non-union and now work in a union shop and alot of my jobs take longer now. But there is good reason for this. When I worked for non-union, I was forced to take short-cuts and would often not take any breaks or lunch. Now with a union shop, I always do the job right and safely. This is why I like where I work, you can do a job and not worry about a call back because of some short-cut you had to take. I'm not saying all non-union shops make their techs take short-cuts and all union shops don't want their techs to take short-cuts, but in my case, this is why some jobs take longer as a union tech.

[timebuilder]

Some of you guys think that jim2005 shouldn't be asking this question, but I don't see any thing wrong with it. I think he is trying to get an idea of how long the average guy would take to do the job so he can estimate jobs better.
Jim2005 said that union jobs take longer than non-union and well I tend to agree with him. I have worked for non-union and now work in a union shop and alot of my jobs take longer now. But there is good reason for this. When I worked for non-union, I was forced to take short-cuts and would often not take any breaks or lunch. Now with a union shop, I always do the job right and safely. This is why I like where I work, you can do a job and not worry about a call back because of some short-cut you had to take. I'm not saying all non-union shops make their techs take short-cuts and all union shops don't want their techs to take short-cuts, but in my case, this is why some jobs take longer as a union tech.

Yes. The quality and safety of a job, taking into account the variables of a group of technicians (thought processes, skills, etc) is directly proportional to the amount of time spent on that job. Try to work too quickly, and you can see safety, morale, and productivity suffer. Work too slowly, and profits suffer. The key is to encourage the tech to find that happy medium, using training, tools, and praise for a job well done.

Union or non-union, you are supervising humans, so this will always apply.

[Milk man]

My brother in law gave me advice once.

Quote the job based on the ability of the person doing the job, not on how you can do it.

[TechIntense]

When I first read the question, my immediate thought was this was a ten hour job. Some of the guys brought up some good points about things that may happen on the job. The big question in my mind is what caused the problem in the first place. If that is known, or if is made clear in the bid that additional repairs may be needed based on what the technician finds then you should be covered. If you are sure that the repairs will solve the problem then I would stick with my 10 hr number. I think that the 12 hr quote was very reasonable.

Honestly, the recovery of an 06E will not take very long if the compressor can be valved off. Also, the oil change should help to speed up the evacuation. You would not have to worry about an chance of moisture or refrigerant being trapped in the oil.

[mikesands]

I appreciate many of those that read the question and answered. Those that answered the question brought up some good points and I have thought about what was mentioned.
A few others need to go back to school and learn how to comprehend what you may read or just read more thoroughly, enough said.

The job was bid at 12hr. I, yes I have completed the job in 10hr’s to include painting the compressor when finished (attention to the details is important). The tech finished the job in 17hr, he did not have any problems, said the job went smoothly.

Back history; the job was originally bid at 16hr but the customer questioned the job because another compressor, a couple of months ago, had the same work done by another tech in 10hr, so I had a hard time justifying a job that is now getting close to doubling in price from the previous job. So I drop it down to 12hr giving the tech 2 more hours than the previous tech/previous job.

This shop has had a salesmen (salesmen is plural) in the service manager position for over 10 years. Those in management did not know how long things should take (my opinion follows) so the techs have been milking the jobs. I am trying to not say to these techs that I can do it faster to many times, that would piss me off if I was still in the field, But they are milking the jobs. These guys seem to be thinking that taking an hour here or there is no big deal but it hurting the bottom line, and I am old school so I also think they a stealing from the company.

I mentioned union only because in my experience union jobs seem to go longer than the jobs I and other non-union techs seem to do. So I thought “union” was an important factor of figuring out the hours for this job, was I was wrong? The job did come in around 2 days as many mentioned. I am still under the opinion that time was wasted.

Again I thank those that have done this job and have taken the time to give me there opinions. I also thank those that mentioned good points.

My first thought is that you have a lot to learn about managing a service department.

Here is a tidbit of advice to consider. When you had the converstaion with the owner of the equipment you should have been of the mindset to explain and justify why your 16 hour quote was the right quote. You don't let the customer dictate to you how long it should take you to do a job.

A good service manager would have explained why the repair costs are what they are. 16 hours wasn't much more than 10 and you could have easily justified it. Apparently there is a reason the guy that did it before isn't doing it this time so why bother with how long it took him ? Don't let the customer even make that reference , you should have been able to discount that and you should have been ready to discount that.

Sometimes you have to anticiapte questions from customers and be prepared to answer them. Its not the length of time the tech took to do the job that is hurting your bottom line it is the manager that is willing to do a job for what the customer tells him it should be done for instead of what the job actually takes that is hurting your bottom line.


Obviously you need to get better at quoting work and working with the techs and customers. This may not be a good position for you to have taken. You're inexperience and inablility to manage is showing on this thread.

Why on earth would you quote a repair like that in 1/2 days anyway ? If you had it right at 16 hours making it 12 added more inefficincies because now you have a split a day up for a technician and that is incredibly inefficient. Never make or accept a half day repair. All quoted work should be made in full day increments. Never , never, quote a half day for anything.

[local 832s]

I say it's a 2 day job... SATURDAY, SUNDAY for time 1/2 and Double time.:):):):) Seriously though, I'm in a union shop where safety comes first. If it takes extra time to do things safely, then so be it. Ladder tied off, harness on elevated equipment, hot work permit ect all this takes TIME. It will cost more for injuries than a few hours of extra time. IMHO

Please don't compromise peoples safety for profit.

[oldtimer2]

jim2005, couple of questions for you. if you were non-union for so long , why did you take a job at a union shop? you never said in the original post if the heads were pulled to check for additional damage. not to mention what caused the problem in the first place. so, going with what was posted, sounds like you really don't know what is wrong. but that is beside the point. sounds to me like your looking for amunition to throw the guy under the bus. your a pr*ck and i'm glad i don't work for you

[PLUMBERHVACTECH]

^^^yah i kinda agree with some of that. but theres also a difference of being a herro and getting the job done quick and nice, and being a worker that this type of work is just a job and you take your time. so as being in a union i would guess that the job took more time than it should have.
I just did this type of job with one other guy and it took 6 hours, but you could back up to the unit. And we are very busy and get paid for the job so theres some motivation there.
? cant tell for the hours you are saying but yes if it was your company and there was 1 grand in you pocket at the end of the day, 8 hours to do the work is plenty of time

[y7turbo]

[QUOTE=PLUMBERHVACTECH;1965577I just did this type of job with one other guy and it took 6 hours[/QUOTE]

12 man hours? or was the other guy just a helper and not being charged for?

[PLUMBERHVACTECH]

12 man hours sorry, but like i said every thing was rite there and easy to get too, thats why as it all depends on type of job not just the job,

[Aircooled81]

20 hours sounds fair. 16 hours is a very motivated tech, anything less and we may be cutting corners, or be very quick tech and deserves 16 anyways!

[chad_nc]

I would have bid 12 hours, done the job in 8 or 9 at most, and charged 10 to the job. I get a little extra, the company still makes good profit margin on the job, and the customer is happy. Replacing valve plates on an 06e is elementary. I am also nonunion, not very many people union in NC. Although I really dont think that the union-nonunion thing has anything to do with it. Of course this doesnt include diagnostics, just what Jim wrote down.

[heavymetaldad]

I say it's a 2 day job... SATURDAY, SUNDAY for time 1/2 and Double time.:):):):) Seriously though, I'm in a union shop where safety comes first. If it takes extra time to do things safely, then so be it. Ladder tied off, harness on elevated equipment, hot work permit ect all this takes TIME. It will cost more for injuries than a few hours of extra time. IMHO

Please don't compromise peoples safety for profit.

agreed!!! weekends only!:D

[mtntom]

Sounds like you asked the tech and he told you 16 hours{sounds reasonable} then you caved to the customer and bid 12 hours{BIG MISTAKE, next time stick to 16 and NOT TO EXCEED} good sales, business skills could have avoided this. If I was the tech and told you 16 and you came back and told me I had 12.....It would have been 16 plus whatever I thought it would take to teach you not to second guess me. You got off easy with 17 IMO. Seriously did you discuss this with the tech who was doing the work? If you had come back and told me it was important to do it in 12 hrs and explained why, I would tell you honestly and work with you, one big concern is what do you want me to do for the other 4 hrs that day? It would be hard to be productive unless maybe there was some pm work in the same building or nearby. I like to estimate in 1/2 day increments at minimum, whole days are better because of the size if my territory at nature of my work{large comm. and industrial}usually takes nearly a 1/2 day to get tools and gear from van to unit and back.

[holmes631]

i like to take my time and make sure everythings its good when i leave who needs the stress of rushing a job ever singel day you at work it will catch up to you

[ACCMan]

I have worked non-Union my whole life and I have recently taken a job were i am now the boss at a Union shop. I know how long this job would have taken me but I am told that I am not being unrealistic, what are your thoughts?
I am not asking for a price or want to know how to do this just job, but your experience on how long a valve plate replacement would take for you to complete if the job went smoothly, and if it did not go smoothly the quote covered that issue.

The Job...

It’s a built up system with an O6E compressor.

(1) Replace all 3 valves plates, (top, left, right)
(2) Replace the oil
(3) Replace the pressure relief
(4) Replace the (2) 75Amp contactors
(5) Start and check operation, no other issues and leave.
(6) The valve plates have core charges and need to be returned

• The building elevator will take you up the top floor you will have to schlep up 20 steeps to the roof.
• You pick up your needed parts (2) days earlier while on another job.
• The drier was not replaced.
• The compressor was not painted when the work was completed.
• Mechanical room was left broom swept clean.
• All other normal procedures were followed.
• This is your account were you have performed the maintenance for years so you know the system and exactly how it works.
• Compressor was valved off.

I would estimate 16 hours max. with an exclusion for any problems found when the system is started up and you are looking for the reason the valves were damaged. Since you changing the valve plates, cleaning time on the gaskets is cut in half compared to checking and then re-using the valve plates. If the compressor had the metal gaskets even more time is saved.
Compressor discharge and suction valves not holding would also be an exclusion due the entire charge having to be recovered.
Relief on the outside? 5H120?
Did the Techs think to push down on any piston at the top of the cylinder?
06E critical on oil level.... too much = oil screen hammered off by crank slapping the oil.

OK, we give.... How many hours with the lightbulb?

[ON-CALL]

I appreciate many of those that read the question and answered. Those that answered the question brought up some good points and I have thought about what was mentioned.
A few others need to go back to school and learn how to comprehend what you may read or just read more thoroughly, enough said.

The job was bid at 12hr. I, yes I have completed the job in 10hr’s to include painting the compressor when finished (attention to the details is important). The tech finished the job in 17hr, he did not have any problems, said the job went smoothly.

Back history; the job was originally bid at 16hr but the customer questioned the job because another compressor, a couple of months ago, had the same work done by another tech in 10hr, so I had a hard time justifying a job that is now getting close to doubling in price from the previous job. So I drop it down to 12hr giving the tech 2 more hours than the previous tech/previous job.

This shop has had a salesmen (salesmen is plural) in the service manager position for over 10 years. Those in management did not know how long things should take (my opinion follows) so the techs have been milking the jobs. I am trying to not say to these techs that I can do it faster to many times, that would piss me off if I was still in the field, But they are milking the jobs. These guys seem to be thinking that taking an hour here or there is no big deal but it hurting the bottom line, and I am old school so I also think they a stealing from the company.

I mentioned union only because in my experience union jobs seem to go longer than the jobs I and other non-union techs seem to do. So I thought “union” was an important factor of figuring out the hours for this job, was I was wrong? The job did come in around 2 days as many mentioned. I am still under the opinion that time was wasted.

Again I thank those that have done this job and have taken the time to give me there opinions. I also thank those that mentioned good points.
Here is his responds he had it but made cust. chew him down something you never do it shows weakness

[ON-CALL]

Sounds like you asked the tech and he told you 16 hours{sounds reasonable} then you caved to the customer and bid 12 hours{BIG MISTAKE, next time stick to 16 and NOT TO EXCEED} good sales, business skills could have avoided this. If I was the tech and told you 16 and you came back and told me I had 12.....It would have been 16 plus whatever I thought it would take to teach you not to second guess me. You got off easy with 17 IMO. Seriously did you discuss this with the tech who was doing the work? If you had come back and told me it was important to do it in 12 hrs and explained why, I would tell you honestly and work with you, one big concern is what do you want me to do for the other 4 hrs that day? It would be hard to be productive unless maybe there was some pm work in the same building or nearby. I like to estimate in 1/2 day increments at minimum, whole days are better because of the size if my territory at nature of my work{large comm. and industrial}usually takes nearly a 1/2 day to get tools and gear from van to unit and back.
RIGHT ON!!!!!!!!!!!!! Could not have said it better

[it's me]

Hello all,

Jim, I have no problem with asking for opinions of others on this site. However, the reality is if you have been in this trade for many years ( I presume) and are the service manager for a union shop, you should be comfortable with your own call on how long jobs should take. Especially with something that is pretty cut and dry and nothing unusual.

I take it that you are salaried management and not a sworn member? It does seem that your posts have a subtle hint of union bashing. (see further down)

Just from the available info, I would say absolutely 16 hours. . . journeyman and apprentice for 1 day or journeyman for 2. I think that it was flange who brought up the intangibles of parking,waiting on elevator, etc. Forgetting a tool in the truck, perhaps. That all matters. Can't forget that all those things add to time. Those who will do it in less, or at least BID it for less, are being unrealistic. You could probably kill yourself and get it done faster if all goes well, but why? I believe in working at a nice steady pace, not rushing. Slow n steady will get it done properly everytime. In the end it always beats out the guys on fire.. . . tortoise, hare anyone?

Besides, AND THIS IS FACT, if you do it in thirteen hours, they will bid the next one for twelve. If you can do it in twelve, 'stop wasting time and you can get it done in eleven!'. Sorry, but this " an hour or two of wasted time is stealing and hurting the company's BOTTOM LINE " is total corporate bullshot! Sick of hearing it!

Your men ARE YOUR BOTTOM LINE. Allow them to do their jobs safely and correctly. Allow them to be comfortable in what they're doing and not look at the clock to see if they're cutting it too close. That is what is most efficient in the end.

Never, cave in to a customer either. I can hear the owners typing the keyboard in response right now, saying that I 'am an idiot, and don't know business and that you need to be ultra competative or else run the risk of losing the job and then your techs have no work. . . . then what?. . huh? '
How much caving can you do in order to be competative? The customer will always want it cheaper no matter what. If you could do the job for free, that would be GREAT! A good customer will realize that the cost is not the most important thing. If you lose a customer on that sole fact, then so be it, they are not worth keeping. They will probably be back anyway, as you are more likely to keep or lose a customer on quality of work and a respectfull relationship. If they feel that they can push you around, there will be no loyalty there and they will dump on you constantly untill they find another contractor to bully.


Also, what is the deal with guys doing SERVICE piece work? Is this common place? God, I hope not! The only piecework I can remember was installers on construction track homes. Are these general tradesmen that do hvac service for a contractor and get payed by the job? Scary. 'Have pickup,will travel'. .. holy cow! 'I'll do that overhaul for thousand bucks,but I have to wait untill my brother in law gets a weekend off. He's the bartender at Friday's and they're really busy right now.' Please tell me I'm wrong!

What is this trade coming to?


A little off topic, I know, but,

On that note, can't stand the union bashing, subtle or otherwise. Was reading the thread of "what do you get paid' ,or something to that effect, originally posted a few years ago. The pro-union folks ( I am one) missed one important reason for unions of any kind. . . . COLLECTIVE BARGAINING. Strength in numbers is an undenyable fact. Men and women working together as one entity have much more bargaining power that the lone individual. More power means more leverage to level the playing field. And although poorly run unions have no doubt hurt the cause, it is corporate America that is crushing blue-collar workers! Make no mistake - the Republican party (for the most part) and their corporate partners in crime have nothing but disdain for the likes of you and me. ' How dare these little people try to demand a livable wage, health insurance, safety compliance, a retirement plan and the like? Who do they think they are?'

Before you owners get all worked up, please know that I am not at all anti-business. It is a partnership. We can work together quite easily to get what we all want. What I am against is GREED. The growing disparity between workers and executives in this country is painfull. 30 years ago, the top executive of a company made on average 35 times what the average worker for that company made. . . today it is over 400 times! Where does it end?



Also, for those of us that think that we no longer need union protection, what about our jobs being outsourced? I hear guys say that you can send factory jobs overseas but you can't outsource service. I say, do you think it impossible that United Technologies, Ingersoll Rand, Johnson Controls and whoever own Mcquay this week, can't get together, open up a state of the art million square foot training facility in Beijing or New Dehli and have themselves a whole new group of workers that are smarter, younger and better trained than we? All coming here by the thousands on work visas to work for 12 bucks an hour and no benefits and be happy todo so? Can't happen???

[skwsproul]

Do a not to exceed price. Figure the worst that you can reasonably figure add a little extra and explain that the price is not to exceed $x but may be cheaper depending on unknown variables with you not having x-ray vision.

Or give 2 prices the first would be the one above the second would be to do an inspection to figure out what else is needed.

[heavymetaldad]

itsme - great reply. your last paragraph, - never gave it a thought, but now reading it, scares the @#$% outta me

[jayhawker]

I have worked non-Union my whole life and I have recently taken a job were i am now the boss at a Union shop. I know how long this job would have taken me but I am told that I am not being unrealistic, what are your thoughts?
I am not asking for a price or want to know how to do this just job, but your experience on how long a valve plate replacement would take for you to complete if the job went smoothly, and if it did not go smoothly the quote covered that issue.

The Job...

It’s a built up system with an O6E compressor.

(1) Replace all 3 valves plates, (top, left, right)
(2) Replace the oil
(3) Replace the pressure relief
(4) Replace the (2) 75Amp contactors
(5) Start and check operation, no other issues and leave.
(6) The valve plates have core charges and need to be returned

• The building elevator will take you up the top floor you will have to schlep up 20 steeps to the roof.
• You pick up your needed parts (2) days earlier while on another job.
• The drier was not replaced.
• The compressor was not painted when the work was completed.
• Mechanical room was left broom swept clean.
• All other normal procedures were followed.
• This is your account were you have performed the maintenance for years so you know the system and exactly how it works.
• Compressor was valved off.



What is the reason the work is being done? Is it just maintenance to prevent trouble in the future or is there a current problem. Because if you replace three valve plates and the compressor has a worn piston, worn cylinder, worn main bearing or a worn connection along the crankshaft all the work you will have done will be in vain. I would give the customer an estimate to first remove the heads and valve plate to see what the actual condition of the compressor is internally, then you could more accuratly quote repairs.
And if you find the compressor should be replaced that price could be quoted.
Quotes should be given on work that you know the facts on estimates should be given on work that you don't. JMO

[LGtonnagetech]

itsme - great reply. your last paragraph, - never gave it a thought, but now reading it, scares the @#$% outta me

Intelligent and frightening essay itsme!

[plick27]

"Back history; the job was originally bid at 16hr but the customer questioned the job because another compressor, a couple of months ago, had the same work done by another tech in 10hr, so I had a hard time justifying a job that is now getting close to doubling in price from the previous job. So I drop it down to 12hr giving the tech 2 more hours than the previous tech/previous job."

You originally thought it should take 16 hrs (why?) and the tech took 17 hrs. Your tech only went over by 1hr. Sounds reasonable to me.

As a manager/estimator I too find myself in situations where I may have to sharpen my pencil in order to keep a contract customer happy. If you decide to do this, it is your decision and yours only. Your techs are not responsible for your decision to take hrs. away from a job. If anything needs to be removed from a job it should be margins not hours. If you lower your price it still takes the same amount of time to do the job. If you have expectations of your crew, you might want to let them know what they are, you'd be suprised at the results.

One of the most challeging aspects of this job is properly applying manpower based on each techs skillset. Not all techs come with the same tool bag or work ethic but everyone brings something to the table. Your job is to know the strengths and weaknesses of every tech and apply them in the most efficient manner and I'd have to say it sounds like you dropped the ball on this one. You backed yourself in a corner by cutting hours. You knew you had a tech that could complete the job within the alotted time and you didn't send him there.

Again, If you thought 16hrs. was so unrealistic why would you bid it in the first place?

[bertoh]

You quoted the work for 16 hrs. and never looked back thru the customers quote history to find out the last one was 10 hrs!! A little incompetent apprentice manager.
Is it the same comp that is getting done again?? ( He could have taken the additional 6 hrs with that 10 to see why it broke up.)
maybe 10 hr man only painted it, how do you know.
I think 16 hrs is fair and reasonable, some jobs go well, some dont.
I bet you come down on the UNION boys and you will have a lot more painters until you are gone.
And make no mistake about it , when owners get a sense that you and the BOYS dont see eye to eye, you are easilier replaced than 10- 20 BOYS.
That job would take me 2 1/2 days .including me , you and the shop steward having a little talk for half a day

[Jarredsdad]

I didn't read all the posts.

I did read far enough to say drivewizard can blow it out his a**.

Having started in this trade in the NAVY I did in the NAV rebuild (ground up) Carrier comps from 3 ton to 80 ton.

Was very pissed on one boat when after going on leave after deployment to meet my new daughter that my new A/C & R school grad had taken one of my compressors apart and left valve plates on the deck in water and the comp open to atmoshpere.

Since I was the division LPO (your job Jim) I told that kid to never ever take a wrench to anything unless I told him to.

I think that 3 valve plates and oil change could be done in a day. Whats the big deal.

Valve it off, recover, take off the heads, valve plates, inspect, put it all back together. Don't forget the torque wrench.

I add time to quotes and add a paragraph to say that the time aloted is worst case. Final bill maybe lower if no unforseen circumstances arise. If more time is needed, we communicate to the customer as to why more time is needed.

If you focus on the job at hand and not on your phone, picking your nose, etc.., it goes much faster.

[thump_rrr]

I haven't read the whole thread but I have done this exact job this past Monday.
My helper and I had the same scenario with the elevator to the top floor with the same 20 steps to the roof give or take a few.
The gaskets were the fiber ones so a decent amount of scraping was required.
I recovered all 40lbs of refrigerant from the circuit and I replaced the contactor also.
I arrived on the job at 7:30 and connected my recovery machine. I left at 8:00 to go to my supplier to pick up the valve plates, new gaskets, oil and contactor.
I was back on the job at 9:30 and my recovery was completed.
I used 5 psi of nitrogen to push my oil out of the compressor and by 10:00 I was ready to pull off the heads.
By 12:00 I had all 3 heads off and all fiber gaskets scraped off. I took a 1/2 hour lunch and by 1:30 I had all 3 heads installed and torqued to 85lb/ft.
My helper was filling the oil while I was torquing the heads.
I then pressure tested the system with nitrogen and began my vacuum.
By 3:00 my vacuum was completed and I began charging the system from the high side. By 4:00 truck was packed and unit was running. I ran into another problem since one of the 2 tx valves in parallel wouldn't open so I had to go back the next day to replace the power element.

If I was doing this under warranty I could have easily done it in 5 hours with my helper or 8 hours alone busting ass.
I was taking the time to show him how everything worked and what to look for.
Ours was a rooftop job and not in a mechanical room.

[amickracing]

I haven't read the whole thread but I have done this exact job this past Monday.
My helper and I had the same scenario with the elevator to the top floor with the same 20 steps to the roof give or take a few.
The gaskets were the fiber ones so a decent amount of scraping was required.
I recovered all 40lbs of refrigerant from the circuit and I replaced the contactor also.
I arrived on the job at 7:30 and connected my recovery machine. I left at 8:00 to go to my supplier to pick up the valve plates, new gaskets, oil and contactor.
I was back on the job at 9:30 and my recovery was completed.
I used 5 psi of nitrogen to push my oil out of the compressor and by 10:00 I was ready to pull off the heads.
By 12:00 I had all 3 heads off and all fiber gaskets scraped off. I took a 1/2 hour lunch and by 1:30 I had all 3 heads installed and torqued to 85lb/ft.
My helper was filling the oil while I was torquing the heads.
I then pressure tested the system with nitrogen and began my vacuum.
By 3:00 my vacuum was completed and I began charging the system from the high side. By 4:00 truck was packed and unit was running. I ran into another problem since one of the 2 tx valves in parallel wouldn't open so I had to go back the next day to replace the power element.

If I was doing this under warranty I could have easily done it in 5 hours with my helper or 8 hours alone busting ass.
I was taking the time to show him how everything worked and what to look for.
Ours was a rooftop job and not in a mechanical room.

If I read it right, you did the same job, with a helper, in one day. Sounds like it went fairly good, you kept busy but there were no need for any wind sprints to the van either. You + helper for a day, 16 hours...

Once again, most of us weren't all that far off.

[Randy S.]

While you guys were all arguing, old "slow and steady" got the job done and moved on to the next.

They found Mr. Zoom in the bar, and the company tools in the hock shop.

[thump_rrr]

If I read it right, you did the same job, with a helper, in one day. Sounds like it went fairly good, you kept busy but there were no need for any wind sprints to the van either. You + helper for a day, 16 hours...

Once again, most of us weren't all that far off.
That's correct. but I could have done the job in 8 by my self busting my hump.
I have done another 2 head 06E in the past in 8 hours by myself and I replaced the oil pump at the same time also.

I think charging 16 hours is a little excessive especially if the comp was valved off and the heads were picked up 2 days before. 10 hours is much more realistic for 1 man.

If I were to pick up the valve plates 2 days before I couldn't in good conscience charge for my time to go pick them up since there is ample time to stop and get them when I'm in the area or I could have them delivered to me without losing any time.
We charge out our helper at a reduced rate since everyone knows that you can't keep a helper busy 100% of the time.

[drivewizard]

I didn't read all the posts.

I did read far enough to say drivewizard can blow it out his a**.

Having started in this trade in the NAVY I did in the NAV rebuild (ground up) Carrier comps from 3 ton to 80 ton.

Was very pissed on one boat when after going on leave after deployment to meet my new daughter that my new A/C & R school grad had taken one of my compressors apart and left valve plates on the deck in water and the comp open to atmoshpere.

Since I was the division LPO (your job Jim) I told that kid to never ever take a wrench to anything unless I told him to.

I think that 3 valve plates and oil change could be done in a day. Whats the big deal.

Valve it off, recover, take off the heads, valve plates, inspect, put it all back together. Don't forget the torque wrench.

I add time to quotes and add a paragraph to say that the time aloted is worst case. Final bill maybe lower if no unforseen circumstances arise. If more time is needed, we communicate to the customer as to why more time is needed.

If you focus on the job at hand and not on your phone, picking your nose, etc.., it goes much faster.

LOL:D
I can do it in 6 1/2 hours, I live for those "Attaboys".

[ON-CALL]

That's correct. but I could have done the job in 8 by my self busting my hump.
I have done another 2 head 06E in the past in 8 hours by myself and I replaced the oil pump at the same time also.

I think charging 16 hours is a little excessive especially if the comp was valved off and the heads were picked up 2 days before. 10 hours is much more realistic for 1 man.

If I were to pick up the valve plates 2 days before I couldn't in good conscience charge for my time to go pick them up since there is ample time to stop and get them when I'm in the area or I could have them delivered to me without losing any time.
We charge out our helper at a reduced rate since everyone knows that you can't keep a helper busy 100% of the time.Yea allright now first you need to contact JIM because you are the BEST TECH. that works for your company and if you say no just read your repleys and I can see you telling your mang. this everytime you do a quoted job look at me the other guys can't do it as fast as me and if someone dose you try to knock it down. So call JIm he needs more guys like you and remember SAFTY FIRST osha is watching:D

[thump_rrr]

Yea allright now first you need to contact JIM because you are the BEST TECH. that works for your company and if you say no just read your repleys and I can see you telling your mang. this everytime you do a quoted job look at me the other guys can't do it as fast as me and if someone dose you try to knock it down. So call JIm he needs more guys like you and remember SAFTY FIRST osha is watching:D

I work for a small shop that has 3 trucks on the road with one of them being the owners.
The third truck is used by a tech who apprenticed under me 3 years ago.
I prefer working in this type of environment where we are all around the same age and also have common interests outside of the workplace.
We hang around together in our off time drag racing and playing golf whenever we have a chance.
We each have our niche with the owners' being process gas, the second technicians being piping, and mine being HVACR.
We all work together to make jobs run smoothly and none of us are shy to ask each other for help when we are stuck.
None of us are above making mistakes or overlooking the obvious once in a while.
We are all headstrong and opinionated so we need to check our egos at the door otherwise we would be throwing pipe wrenches at each other.

I received my training working for a national manufacturer of HVAC equipment over 20 years ago so I have been around the block a time or 2.
I have approximately 45 Carlyle 06D and 06E compressors which I take care of so it is a job I am very comfortable with and perform quite often.

I don't see what the big deal is in replacing 3 heads and a safety valve.
There is a total of 24 bolts on the heads and 4 bolts on the suction service valve to get to the safety valve.
Most of the time is consumed by schlepping tools, recuperating and vacuuming the system.

Someone else said they could do it in 6.5 and I believe it can be done if you're fast.

[Jarredsdad]

Bottom line is it is a job.

Plan ahead, try to foresee problems.

Go at it, and do the best you can in the shortest amount of time.

With priority on doing it correctly and not on time constraints.

8, 10, 16, 6.5, hours matters not, as long as you can walk away knowing there will be no call back the jib is done.

[drivewizard]

Bottom line is it is a job.

Plan ahead, try to foresee problems.

Go at it, and do the best you can in the shortest amount of time.

With priority on doing it correctly and not on time constraints.

8, 10, 16, 6.5, hours matters not, as long as you can walk away knowing there will be no call back the jib is done.

I can buy that, I think far to many people just look at how quickly they can do the task at hand. But, when that is done they don't take the time to run the unit and let it cycle on its own to see if it is working properly. You sometimes discover a lot of underlying problems when you take some time and just watch a system while taking measurements. This may take several hours sometimes.

If you change valve plates and place back in operation, and hit the road, you are really not providing a quality service to the customer.
You may have met the scope of what was on the work order or was quoted, but did the customer get his problem identified and resolved or just get symptoms fixed temporarily.

Sadly far to many in this field only look at the symptoms of a problem and fix that, but do not look at Root cause. Which may take some time.
Often times customers do not understand why it takes so much time to get to the bottom of a problem. They do not understand the dynamics of an HVAC system and think it pretty simple straightforward stuff.

If you include the time to investigate up front I have found it is much easier than going back after you make repairs and asking for more time.
How much time elapses before you do not consider it a "Callback"? 6 months, a year?
We are providing a 3 years parts and labor warranty on our work.
How long do you provide?

By the way, I was joking about the 6.5 hours! I have a whole box full of attaboys, but haven't found a bank or store yet that will accept them as payment. :(

[thump_rrr]

Our compressor supplier requires us to fill out this startup report when replacing compressors.
I use a similar report during my annual PM's and whenever a system is serviced.
http://www.gshermetique.com/eflyer_templates/pdf/compressor_startup_report_en.pdf

[Milk man]

Our compressor supplier requires us to fill out this startup report when replacing compressors.
I use a similar report during my annual PM's and whenever a system is serviced.
http://www.gshermetique.com/eflyer_templates/pdf/compressor_startup_report_en.pdf

I like your form, thanks.

[Dallas Duster]

I haven't read the whole thread but I have done this exact job this past Monday.
My helper and I had the same scenario with the elevator to the top floor with the same 20 steps to the roof give or take a few.
The gaskets were the fiber ones so a decent amount of scraping was required.
I recovered all 40lbs of refrigerant from the circuit and I replaced the contactor also.
I arrived on the job at 7:30 and connected my recovery machine. I left at 8:00 to go to my supplier to pick up the valve plates, new gaskets, oil and contactor.
I was back on the job at 9:30 and my recovery was completed.
I used 5 psi of nitrogen to push my oil out of the compressor and by 10:00 I was ready to pull off the heads.
By 12:00 I had all 3 heads off and all fiber gaskets scraped off. I took a 1/2 hour lunch and by 1:30 I had all 3 heads installed and torqued to 85lb/ft.
My helper was filling the oil while I was torquing the heads.
I then pressure tested the system with nitrogen and began my vacuum.
By 3:00 my vacuum was completed and I began charging the system from the high side. By 4:00 truck was packed and unit was running. I ran into another problem since one of the 2 tx valves in parallel wouldn't open so I had to go back the next day to replace the power element.

If I was doing this under warranty I could have easily done it in 5 hours with my helper or 8 hours alone busting ass.
I was taking the time to show him how everything worked and what to look for.
Ours was a rooftop job and not in a mechanical room.

I`ve heard it might not be legal "EPA" to leave your recover machine running unattended.

[thump_rrr]

I`ve heard it might not be legal "EPA" to leave your recover machine running unattended.
I can't tell you about the USA but we are good to go here if we have the tank overfill switch connected.

[cold in alberta]

Our compressor supplier requires us to fill out this startup report when replacing compressors.
I use a similar report during my annual PM's and whenever a system is serviced.
http://www.gshermetique.com/eflyer_templates/pdf/compressor_startup_report_en.pdf

They sell re-builds,correct?Are they better than Compref?

[Dallas Duster]

I can't tell you about the USA but we are good to go here if we have the tank overfill switch connected.

I guess it`s a little cooler in Canada too easier to recover too eh.

[thump_rrr]

They sell re-builds,correct?Are they better than Compref? I have never tried Compref but they're certainly cheaper than Totaline.
I bought a 06DX537 last week for $1500 which comes with a 3 year warranty.
I like using them because they are close to most of my clientèle.
I try not going towards the east end since I'll usually get stuck in traffic during peak hours.
I can call G&S almost any time and be at their door in one hour picking up a compressor.
They are reasonable with their warranty also since I needed to replace one which let go after a crankcase heater died and flooded back the compressor.
I like dealing with family run businesses whenever I can.

[cold in alberta]

Thanks-i may try them instead of compref then.Compref used to have an office in calgary here but closed it and someone told me they were using GShermetique and had good service.Thanks again:)

[mtntom]

I can't tell you about the USA but we are good to go here if we have the tank overfill switch connected.

Tank overfill switch? You mean people use those things!:D

[HeatXfer]

Back on topic: Referring to the OP, 12hrs tops. Probably no more than 8.

/15yrs UA A/C-Refrigeration fitter