410A chaos in 2010

[philkawa]

There's no question that the new law that outlaws the manufacture of R22 machines in 2010 is going to create a lot of chaos. I would like to submit these questions for discussion:

Is 410 refrigerant ventable? If it is not, why is it better then R22? If it's not ventable it must also be harmful to the atmosphere just like R22 so what's the purpose of making this change?

If the manufacture of R22 machines are outlawed in 2010, does that mean that if a compressor fails, a serviceman must rip out the indoor blower unit, the condenser and all the piping and replace it all with a R410 machine? Imagine how many existing R22 machines there are in the country and think about high rise buildings sometimes with several floors of piping. I wonder if the government itself will comply with it's own law in their buildings? They certainly can't afford that expense no more than the average homeowner.

R-401 machines operate with a high side pressure of 450-500 pounds. Is this something that belongs in a house?

A Comparison:
R-12 in cars eventually outdated itself because cars have a short lifespan. Houses have long lifespans and really do not outdate themselves so there is no comparison between what happened to r-12 and what's going on now.

As a technician I just don't see how outlawing R-22 machines can work. They'll be too much chaos. I believe that a drop-in refrigerant is the only solution possible.

Your thoughts?

[Tiger93rsl]

There's no question that the new law that outlaws the manufacture of R22 machines in 2010 is going to create a lot of chaos. I would like to submit these questions for discussion:

Is 410 refrigerant ventable? If it is not, why is it better then R22? If it's not ventable it must also be harmful to the atmosphere just like R22 so what's the purpose of making this change?

If the manufacture of R22 machines are outlawed in 2010, does that mean that if a compressor fails, a serviceman must rip out the indoor blower unit, the condenser and all the piping and replace it all with a R410 machine? Imagine how many existing R22 machines there are in the country and think about high rise buildings sometimes with several floors of piping. I wonder if the government itself will comply with it's own law in their buildings? They certainly can't afford that expense no more than the average homeowner.

R-401 machines operate with a high side pressure of 450-500 pounds. Is this something that belongs in a house?

A Comparison:
R-12 in cars eventually outdated itself because cars have a short lifespan. Houses have long lifespans and really do not outdate themselves so there is no comparison between what happened to r-12 and what's going on now.

As a technician I just don't see how outlawing R-22 machines can work. They'll be too much chaos. I believe that a drop-in refrigerant is the only solution possible.

Your thoughts?
410A is not ventable it must be recoverd also. The major difference is R-22 is a HCFC and 410 is an HFC there is no chlorine witch is what hurts the ozone. even after 2010 compressors for R-22 will still be allowed to be manufatured and will still be readily available. And R-22 will still be manufatured but with a 65% decrease in production. even though 410A runs at higher pressures it is still safe for use in homes.

[JD Perkins]

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As a technician I just don't see how outlawing R-22 machines can work. They'll be too much chaos. I believe that a drop-in refrigerant is the only solution possible.

Your thoughts?

As a technician you should be doing your homework on why and what will need to be done for the R-22 equipment and refrigerant phase out. There is more than enough time here not to cause chaos. I think we made it through the R-12 and R-502 phase out ok. Compressors will be available for R-22 systems for years and years. And there is and will be R-22 replacement gas as a drop in as well. I don't see any major issue. I think the harder problem to explain to people has been the SEER change. Explaining to a customer that if they want to change the condensing unit we will have to change the indoor unit as well is and can be difficult to explain. No need to panic about the R-22 phase out. IMO:D
Don't you think R-12 was in almost every commercial and residential refrigeration system? Millions of pieces of equipment.

[ampulman]

J. D. Perkins stated:

"I think we made it through the R-12 and R-502 phase out ok."

Re: the 502. Just curious, I worked with very low temperature equipment (freeze drying) many years ago which used 502. Is there a drop-in replacement?

AM

[BaldLoonie]

If you can't change the tubing, flush it. At least one of our brands calls for doing that on a refrigerant switch.

A GOOD company would be matching the evap (or indoor unit) upgrading to a R22 13 SEER system anyway.

[2seamaster]

I think Philkawa had some good questions. I would like to know what you mean by drop in referigrant, and why isn't the home industry using 134 as it works good in my auto.

[beenthere]

Phil.

You are under several misconceptions.
R22 replacement parts will still be made, long after 2010, including compressors.
R12 compressors are still made today.

The making of R22 systems is not outlawed either. So they may be made for a while in 2010.

Your water heater is more dangerous then R410A operating at 500 PSIG.

R410A must be recovered because of the EPA wording that states " all compounds used as a refrigerant must be recovered".

[badboyheel]

typical fear there is dropins but i know some manufacturers have said that if you use them it will void the warranty. sounds like you fear change...... jmo.

[badboyheel]

sounds like the y2k scare .......... sorry this just makes me laugh

[bmathews]

I don't think it will be chaos. Parts won't be stocked as much as now in the supply houses. But you will be able to get them, it might take a day or 2 longer. You might have problems if you haven't been preparing for the changeover. You should be pushing 410 equipment. We only put in R410 anymore, unless the customer doesn't want or have the $$$ to change everything. We'll match a coil to a condenser or vice versa if one goes out, rental stuff mostly. But inform the customer as to what will be happening. That's all you can do, we all gotta eat.

[coldbeer]

You are under several misconceptions.
R22 replacement parts will still be made, long after 2010, including compressors.
R12 compressors are still made today.

I disagree.

Within certain limits, a compressor is a compressor is a compressor. The difference is the lubricating oils. Alkabenzyene oil vs. mineral oil vs. polyol oil is the major difference.

And yeah, I can't spell worth a you-know-what.

oops, sorry, R22 parts will be made for a long time. The comment was made about the R12 compressors.

[beenthere]

They still make or have available compressors designated as CFC R12 compressors.

With only ratings using R12. They are considered obsolete.
Don't forget. Not all countries have banned R12.

Here is a current R12 compressor, still available.

[RDP]

To sum it up:GET USED TO IT.The only thing anyone ever fears are the things they don't understand.

[philkawa]

To sum it up:GET USED TO IT.The only thing anyone ever fears are the things they don't understand.

If we all simply "get used to things" there would be no need for this forum

[RDP]

Wrong my friend.We offer tech support to one.Something is only as hard as you make it.I cannot make you to the point to where you accept the fact and relize that it is not a big deal.You must not have worked on 410 systems before.I am not insulting you by the way.

[beenthere]

Change is inevitable.

Get use to it.

[JD Perkins]

J. D. Perkins stated:

"I think we made it through the R-12 and R-502 phase out ok."

Re: the 502. Just curious, I worked with very low temperature equipment (freeze drying) many years ago which used 502. Is there a drop-in replacement?

AM

408A is one.

[gsxrsquid]

stop worrying and get a little more training on 410. The change is something that has been underway for years and though there will be bumps along the road it should not be a big deal. From a Techs perspective the manufacturers are the folks who have the hassles. If one of my customers needs a new system I guide them to a 410 system. If they have a fairly new R22 system I don;t have any problem repairing it for them knowing it can give them many more years of service and parts will be available. you can still purchase R-12, 502 and other obsolete refrigerants. They are expensive but available.

with POE education will be more important especially for installers who don't purge with N2 or pull vacuums. (just about every installer in the florida panhandle) the names and faces have changed but the principles of refrigeration are the same.

[ar_hvac_man]

You cant vent it for the same reason you cant vent 134a, the global warming potential. 410a has about 1700 X the global waming potential of carbon dioxide.

[beenthere]

Co2 Gwp=1
R22 Gwp=1700
R410a Gwp=1890

[philkawa]

410A is not ventable it must be recoverd also. The major difference is R-22 is a HCFC and 410 is an HFC there is no chlorine witch is what hurts the ozone. even after 2010 compressors for R-22 will still be allowed to be manufatured and will still be readily available. And R-22 will still be manufatured but with a 65% decrease in production. even though 410A runs at higher pressures it is still safe for use in homes.

Thanks Tiger93RSL. Your answer is right on the money! Some of discussion treads seemed to sway from my topic while others spoke about the past and present rather than the future. A few decided to challenge my creditability but for the most part, I'm pleased with this discussion forum.

For those who need to know my experience, I have been a Verizon HVAC for 25 years with 10 years of residential experience prior to Verizon and I hold a masters degree (MSM) in management.

Again Tiger93RSL Thank you.

[MechAcc]

I think Philkawa had some good questions. I would like to know what you mean by drop in referigrant, and why isn't the home industry using 134 as it works good in my auto.

May be mistaken but believe Carrier produced some R134a residential units for a year or two before they brought out R410a.

[RoBoTeq]

R22 equipment can still be manufactured, it just can't have any R22 in it, basically making it a big part. Don't know if any manufacturer's are going to seek this market, but it is not illegal.

R410a pressures are not more dangerous then R22 pressures are. By the way, the reaction to the higher pressures of R22 compared to what was being used when R22 was developed was the same; "oh nooooo....we're all gonna die because of the high pressures of R22!". If anything, the higher pressures should make it easier to find those pesky little leaks faster, before they become big dangerous leaks:rolleyes:.

As for "why recover"? R410a is not supposed to be as harmful to the atmosphere as R22, but is still not something we want to be breathing. You don't see signs reading; "Don't pee in the pool, unless you have really weak pee!" do ya?

[derbysr]

Aren't you'll going to add educational Tread for one these reasons ?

[bob hubbard]

The prblem was we were mis informed from the beginning about line sets and switching out systems . I remember when the pureon guys said you have to change everything or else :cool: Now its ok to just flush it .... Go figure

[Atticmonkey777]

R22 equipment can still be manufactured, it just can't have any R22 in it, basically making it a big part. Don't know if any manufacturer's are going to seek this market, but it is not illegal.



Ive installed six 10ton units this summer so far. All came filled with helium instead of R22.

[beenthere]

R22 equipment can still be manufactured, it just can't have any R22 in it,



Not true.

They may make them and charge them with R22.

If its virgin R22, the R22 has to have been bought before Jan 1, 2010.
They may also use recycled R22.

[RoBoTeq]

Ive installed six 10ton units this summer so far. All came filled with helium instead of R22.
A lot of commercial equipment is not filled with refrigerant. The Goodman/Amana 7.5 and 10 ton split systems condensers and heat pumps only have two pounds of refrigerant in them.

That's for different reasons then the R22 phase out.

[RoBoTeq]

Not true.

They may make them and charge them with R22.

If its virgin R22, the R22 has to have been bought before Jan 1, 2010.
They may also use recycled R22.
I would need to see more on this assertation as it is not what we have been told at manufacturer meetings. What sense does it make to say manufacturers cannot manufacture R22 bearing equipment and then just override that decree. They may as well not have the phase out at all.

[philkawa]

I would need to see more on this assertation as it is not what we have been told at manufacturer meetings. What sense does it make to say manufacturers cannot manufacture R22 bearing equipment and then just override that decree. They may as well not have the phase out at all.

I agree. May I suggest that if anyone in this discussion has any information that conflicts or indicates changes of the 2010 law, please indicate the source of that information. Let us know where we can find it on the web or whether it is hearsay.

[beenthere]

When I find that link again.
I'll post it. (I should have bookmarked it)

Some of the EPA sites, aren't updated as quick as others.

What is your understanding that the production reduction % is suppose to be in 2010 for R22.

Many people still think its 65%.

That was changed in 2007 to 75%.

[RoBoTeq]

When I find that link again.
I'll post it. (I should have bookmarked it)

Some of the EPA sites, aren't updated as quick as others.

What is your understanding that the production reduction % is suppose to be in 2010 for R22.

Many people still think its 65%.

That was changed in 2007 to 75%.
To be honest, I am sceptical about everything the EPA is involved with. Let's face it, the EPA has not been good to those of us in the trenches. If they are not changing their own rulings, they make the definitions of their intent so difficult to understand that most of us don't really know what is going on or will be going on. Talk about government beauracracy gone very wrong.

[philkawa]

To be honest, I am sceptical about everything the EPA is involved with. Let's face it, the EPA has not been good to those of us in the trenches. If they are not changing their own rulings, they make the definitions of their intent so difficult to understand that most of us don't really know what is going on or will be going on. Talk about government beauracracy gone very wrong.

According to this EPA web site dated March 2007, you are correct. The R-22 reduction is now 75% in 2010. Here's the link
http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/phaseout/hcfc.html

[beenthere]

Yea.

I was supprised to find out. That, currently. There is no law, or reg, against the import of pre charged R22 units.

From the EPA:


4.3.6 Pre-charged Imports
AC equipment pre-charged with HCFCs is currently imported into the United States predominantly from
Korea, Brazil, and China. In recent years, there has been a shift to overseas manufacturing; the number
of imports of AC equipment into the United States is on the rise (UNEP 2003a; U.S. Census Bureau
2007). Central AC systems from foreign manufacturers such as Samsung, LG, and Haier are entering the
U.S. market. Additionally, some U.S. manufacturers are starting to relocate plants to Mexico and other
countries (Honeywell 2005), while others import equipment from international manufacturers that is then
sold under their labels (HARDI 2005).
Effective January 1, 2010, domestic manufacturers of air-conditioning (AC) and refrigeration appliances
will not be able to charge newly manufactured appliances with newly produced or imported HCFC-22 or
HCFC-142b, and thus will not be introducing appliances containing these newly produced substances into
interstate commerce. However, the regulatory provision does not lead to similar results for AC and
refrigeration equipment that has been “pre-charged” with refrigerant before entering the United States.
EPA is evaluating the implications of proposing a January 1, 2010 ban that would prohibit the sale or
distribution of pre-charged units imported after that date and this analysis inherently assumes a ban on
imported pre-charged products beginning in 2010. However, should R-22 pre-charged units continue to
enter the United States after 2010, it would have the effect of increasing the overall servicing demand of
R-22 charged equipment post-2010, adding further concern to the risk of potential shortfalls as projected
in Scenarios 15 and 20 of this analysis. Initial estimates indicate that a projected average annual total of
pre-charged R-22 imports could range from 10.7 million to 15 million units. Further details regarding the
effects of a ban on import of appliances precharged with HCFCs is available in EPA’s e-docket

[beenthere]

According to this EPA web site dated March 2007, you are correct. The R-22 reduction is now 75% in 2010. Here's the link



Now read the 2008 edition of the regs.

[Airmechanical]

502, I worked with very low temperature equipment (freeze drying) many years ago which used 502. Is there a drop-in replacement?


yes there is, i can tell you which in the technical section!



.

[Airmechanical]

To be honest, I am sceptical about everything the EPA is involved with. Let's face it, the EPA has not been good to those of us in the trenches. If they are not changing their own rulings, they make the definitions of their intent so difficult to understand that most of us don't really know what is going on or will be going on. Talk about government beauracracy gone very wrong.

is there a hole in the o-zone, is the hole closing up?

i will tell you, it has a lot to do with patents!

it's a Dupont thing!



.

[philkawa]

Now read the 2008 edition of the regs.
My mistake. this is the March 2008 regulation (not 2007)
http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/phaseout/hcfc.html

[tinknocker service tech]

for many years there were no valves for pump down and no equipment for reclaim. So when you needed to tap into the units you had no other options but to dump.

now with valves on all equipment and reclaimers for recovery laws and type of refrigerant shouldnt matter.

there is no reason or excuse not to reclaim or pump down to tap a system

anyone just venting is just being plain iresponsible and foolish

with this said 410-a or 22 should be reclaimed and not intentialy vented for the well being of all

[RoBoTeq]

for many years there were no valves for pump down and no equipment for reclaim. So when you needed to tap into the units you had no other options but to dump.

now with valves on all equipment and reclaimers for recovery laws and type of refrigerant shouldnt matter.

there is no reason or excuse not to reclaim or pump down to tap a system

anyone just venting is just being plain iresponsible and foolish

with this said 410-a or 22 should be reclaimed and not intentialy vented for the well being of all
I completely agree. Even without being forced to, we should be keeping nasty crap out of our air as much as possible.

[badboyheel]

is there a hole in the o-zone, is the hole closing up?

i will tell you, it has a lot to do with patents!

it's a Dupont thing!



.

the latest "theory i've read is that the whole in the ozone has always been there and is not man made. who the heck knows anymore, to many theories and no conclusive evidence, so in the meantime i'll just follow the rules set for me by the government.:confused:

[Airmechanical]

i'll just follow the rules set for me by the government.

that is a good way to stay out of trouble:eek::rolleyes:



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