R22 phase out-compressors?

[nchvac]

I know that the equipment will stop being made in 2010, but I am not sure if replacement compressors will still be available and be manufactured. They still make R12 compressors don't they?
There will be a lot of pissed off people if every time a compressor goes out they have to change out their lineset, unit and coil. Money is to be made!

[cnpro18]

You will still be able to get parts for R-22 units after 2010. Expensive they will be.

[MichaelPaladin]

While the price of R-22 will go up on 2010, and the main reason is no new R-22 will be made.

The parts and equipment will still be there for a few years, but its just gonna cost more. And what R-22 that is sold will most likely be stuff that was recycled, once all the virgin stocks are depleted.

[beenthere]

IN 2010 R22 may go. And R410A may sky rocket as the demand for it doubles.

R22 compressors will still be made, and available for many years yet. And they won't be anymore expensive then an R410A compressor.

I can get R12 compressors for the same basic price as an R134A compressor.


Any contractor that tells you mechanical parts for R22 systems are going to be expensive, is just using scare tatics.

[dsfitzgerald7]

r-22 will be manufactured until 2020, but the amount that is made will be reduced. in 2010 they will stop making equipment with r-22. the price of r-410A is actually coming down right now because the patent recently expired. the price of r-22 will soon exceed the price of r-410A

[bmathews]

I would think that the cost to manufacture an R22 vs. R410 compressor will still be very close. Only horse's arse's would try to gouge somebody, risking losing business, most in this industry aren't stupid. You have to take into account that most of the time when a compressor croaks and it isn't in warranty, the unit gets replaced and most compressors will run for a while, its a low percentage that die. And just because you change from 22 to 410 does NOT mean you have to change the lineset.

[nites chaos]

I know that the equipment will stop being made in 2010, but I am not sure if replacement compressors will still be available and be manufactured. They still make R12 compressors don't they?
There will be a lot of pissed off people if every time a compressor goes out they have to change out their lineset, unit and coil. Money is to be made!

As several have said R22 compressors will be available. The manufactures have to have compressors ( warranty parts) available until the warranty period is up. It doesn't mean they will be readily available, but they'll be available. Like many HVAC parts, as the demand dwindles supply houses will still carry them, just not as many as they once did. I still keep parts for units that haven't been made since the late 80's and early 90's but that shelf space shrinks every year. Heck I've got NOS parts that haven't been made for years, original control boards, defrost boards, etc etc.. :D

[Poodle Head Mikey]

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Why couldn't you just use a 410 compressor on 22 ?

[-459FZPE]

r-22 will be manufactured until 2020, but the amount that is made will be reduced. in 2010 they will stop making equipment with r-22. the price of r-410A is actually coming down right now because the patent recently expired. the price of r-22 will soon exceed the price of r-410A


Its just about there already. I am paying about the same per jug of 410a as i am for R-22

[bmathews]

.
Why couldn't you just use a 410 compressor on 22 ?

I'm hoping you're joking. Otherwise how did you become a professional member?

[catmanacman]

.
Why couldn't you just use a 410 compressor on 22 ?

possible ,

[nchvac]

possible ,

Different Oil is the biggest reason. If I'm not mistaken, 22 uses mineral oil and 410a uses an hydroscopic oil that absorbs moisture rapidly.

[nchvac]

I would think that the cost to manufacture an R22 vs. R410 compressor will still be very close. Only horse's arse's would try to gouge somebody, risking losing business, most in this industry aren't stupid. You have to take into account that most of the time when a compressor croaks and it isn't in warranty, the unit gets replaced and most compressors will run for a while, its a low percentage that die. And just because you change from 22 to 410 does NOT mean you have to change the lineset.

Perhaps we can elaborate on this a little. The two refrigerants use a different oil, so you have to either change the lineset or flush the old one with something like R-11. Those flush kits are about 75 bucks now. Linesets are high, but they are scraping high too! Is there some other way that I don't know about?

[beenthere]

Keep price references out of the open resi forum.

[beenthere]

.
Why couldn't you just use a 410 compressor on 22 ?
R410A compressor pumps less gas by weight per ton then an R22 compressor. In the same tonnage system.

[Poodle Head Mikey]

R-22 doesn't care what oil it has under it. For example; 22 runs fine in 404 compressors. And R-22 runs lower pressures than R-410 so the compressor would be perhaps less stressed than usual.

What is it about my speculation which astonishes you?

PHM
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I'm hoping you're joking. Otherwise how did you become a professional member?

[Poodle Head Mikey]

Does that mean that they wouldn't pump the R-22? Or that they would have a different performance curve when pumping 22?

How about by volume?

BTW: I mention these things academically; because so long as there is a market - R-22 compressors will be available. Look how long has 12 been gone and the 12 compressors are readily available, in-stock, right on the shelf.



QUOTE=beenthere;1929312]R410A compressor pumps less gas by weight per ton then an R22 compressor. In the same tonnage system.[/QUOTE]

[beenthere]

PHM:

I think you have, or do some refrigeration also.

So you've seen more then one condenser come marked, suitable for R12, R22, R502.
And if you checked. The capacity of the unit varied by not only the temp application, but by the refrigerant you used.

So I think you would have to increase the R410A compressor by 10 to 15% to get the same BTU capacity.
The coils of the R22 system would be designed for X pounds per minute. And the new compressor would have to move that many pounds to get the same BTU capacity.


Do you think it would be safe, to use a compressor for R22 that has a IR that exceeds 500 PSI

[Poodle Head Mikey]

How long have compressors had internal relief valves? I work on lots of them that still have none.

Speaking of compressors and refrigerants; I don't know if you are old enough to remember, but when R-502 first came out there were no R-502 compressors. What was used was an R-12 compressor. Which was always a lot of fun on a dead-flat system. <g>

And my thought most recently was: how much different is 410/22 versus 12/502 ?

So anyway; the 410 compressor would handle the lower pressures of 22 OK . . . . so long as the HP / pounds pumped per hour lined up pretty well. I've never looked at the numbers and doubt I will ever have to. But to answer the hypothetical question of what will we do if R-22 compressors are NLA - I thought to mention the possibility of using 410 compressors.

PHM
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PHM:

I think you have, or do some refrigeration also.

So you've seen more then one condenser come marked, suitable for R12, R22, R502.

And if you checked. The capacity of the unit varied by not only the temp application, but by the refrigerant you used.

So I think you would have to increase the R410A compressor by 10 to 15% to get the same BTU capacity.
The coils of the R22 system would be designed for X pounds per minute. And the new compressor would have to move that many pounds to get the same BTU capacity.


Do you think it would be safe, to use a compressor for R22 that has a IR that exceeds 500 PSI

[beenthere]

R12 to R502, the critical pressures are witin 10&#37; of each other.

I vaguely remember hearing about no 502 compressors.

[Poodle Head Mikey]

Beenthere quote- "How many times must one fix something before it is fixed?"

Easy -

Until they give up and buy a new system.

[beenthere]

Beenthere quote- "How many times must one fix something before it is fixed?"

Easy -

Until they give up and buy a new system.
I thought it was as many times as it takes, till they address the problem and not the symptom. :(

[Poodle Head Mikey]

I was talking about almost everyone else. <g>

PHM
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I thought it was as many times as it takes, till they address the problem and not the symptom. :(

[nchvac]

R-22 doesn't care what oil it has under it. For example; 22 runs fine in 404 compressors. And R-22 runs lower pressures than R-410 so the compressor would be perhaps less stressed than usual.

What is it about my speculation which astonishes you?

PHM
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If 22 works fine in a 404 system, then that is good to know. However, I don't think that we are supposed to be mixing oils. Mineral oils and POE oils don't mix if I am not mistaken. Are the ones that are changing to 410A systems not changing linesets or flushing the old linesets out with R11 or some other method?
As far as the compressors go, I have heard that the 410A systems draw less amperage. This seems odd to me because they run at higher head pressure, which directly affects amp draw. Now, if they do actually draw a lower amperage (perhaps due to the lower weight of the charge as has been refered to), then the compressors probably wouldn't last long pushing all of that 22. Quite frankly, I am suprised to hear you guys even discussing this when you won't hear of working on a mismatched unit that works perfectly fine.
Lets please get off of the engineering and try to clear up some questions that we all need to know for the upcoming 2010 conversion. I am asking these questions with good intentions because I have not worked on any 410 A units and probably won't until I install one on a side job. Thanks

[beenthere]

You can just blow out the line set.
I prefer to install new.

If you treat R410A, the way you are suppose to treat R22, your covered.

Don't believe everything you hear about lower amps.

A 13 SEER r22, and a 13 SEER R410A, providing the same BTUs, will draw the same amperage at the same voltage.(ok maybe a couple tenths difference)

[Poodle Head Mikey]

Sorry about that. Didn't mean to hijack your thread.

The answer to your question is: forget about the concern.

R-22 compressors will be made for decades to come. So long as there is a market - the compressors will be there.

PHM
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