Capacity needed for 2500 sq ft house

[Nov3ice]

We are in the final throes of decision about the installation of a new gas furnace and a heat pump in my 1937 vintage house with minimal if any in-wall insulation. The house, in Boston, is 2500 sq ft and the ceilings on the first floor average about 9 ft with 8 ft ceilings on the 2nd floor. Two vendors are promoting different systems, as follows:

A. Higher priced system:

Carrier 58MVC120-20 Infinity Series 3-Stage 120K btuh Gas-fired furnace
Carrier Infiniti 25HNA960 heat pump
Carrier SYSTXCCUID01 Infinity Series Controller
Carrier CNPVP6024ACA 5 ton Vertical DX Coil
Nortec steam humidifier

B. Lower cost system:

Carrier 58MVC100-1-F-20 furnace
Carrier 25HPA542H003 heat pump
Carrier SYTXCCU1DOL-B Infinity controller
Carrier CNPVP4221ACA coil
Nortec steam humidifier

The vendor of A said that my house needs the 5 ton heat pump because it is drafty and has some high ceilings. The vendor for the smaller system said that the house would be too cold using the 5 ton unit and that if stage 1 kicked in it would be insufficient. It is tough knowing how to proceed. Any suggestions?
:confused:

[Twilly]

Twilli like C

[amd]

Both of them are wrong.

The only way to size correctly is with a load calculation. (Some may do it based on square footage, shading, and experience with similar houses, which is better than just guessing)

Having an over-sized unit will not make your house too cold unless you set the temperature too low; however, a 5 ton unit may not run enough to remove the humidity and prevent heat stratification.

Prior to even sizing equipment, every practical way to improve to building envelope should be explored. Many government offer grants for energy efficiency upgrades, and adding insulation doesn't always have to entail ripping out walls. Insulation can be easily added to the attic; it can also be blown into empty walls. If the house is drafty, seal the drafts prior to replacing equipment. If you plan on replacing windows, postpone the installation and do the windows first. If the equipment is sized based on the existing efficiency level, it will be oversized if you decide to make changes down the road.

A professional energy audit and blower door test can help you identify areas which need improvement, and determine which upgrade options have to best rate of return.

The bottom line is that there's no point of putting high efficiency equipment into an inefficient house.

120 000 BTUs for a 2500 sq ft house is way out of line; the same goes for five tons of cooling.

Where I live a house of your size would get a 2.5 or 3 ton condenser paired with a 60-75k BTU furnace. (However, I live in a colder climate with a mild cooling season.) The other thing is that the equipment can only be as good as the distribution system; leaky/undersized ductwork can reduce capacity and efficiency dramatically.

[RyanHughes]

Twilli like C

Twilli means he likes neither of the contractors! The best way to size the system would be through a load calculation--did any contractor do one? Oversizing does crush efficiency. 5 tons is a lot of cooling.

2500/5 = 5 tons. Perfect! (Just kidding, silly 500 sq. ft./ton rule of thumb.) :D

[Twilly]

No Twilli meant Coleman;)

[beenthere]

Call number 3 and 4.

2 stage units aren't suppose to be big enough to do the whole place in first stage when it 95 outside.

Screen contractors over the phone, only schedule contractors that will do a load calc.

[Montreal_Canada]

Hi everybody,
I'm on a research for exchange of my 25-years OLD! furnace and heat pump.
Just for puttini in situation : furnace is SMART from James Smart Mfg Ltd, Montreal, CAnada, Model SHG-200-5, Input 200,000, Output 160,000 BTUH !!
As you can see, lot if this juice is going right away trough the chimney ... :-(
Heat pump : GE Elite Super Efficience Wathertron Heat Pump, BWX736A100A0, Mfg 06/83.
I use them since 1998 when did purchage of the house, and God thanks! they did a good job. Now, pump failed with 2 broken copper tubes and I think I shoul put all that on the scrap and purchase new modern system.

My 2-floors house has +/- 2,550 sq ft on both floors excluding basement, with one has 690 sq ft area. House onlu volume is approximately 22,700 cu ft, basement is approx. 5,500 cu ft.

As per I has been told, Area / 750 sq ft/ton gives +/- 3.37 tonnes, or I will need either 3 or 3.5 tons unit. I would think 3.5 is better, knowing that my hous dates 1992 and it is not as well insulated as later houses ... The furnace heating capacity, I've been told I need, is not more than 100,000, even 90,000 BTU. I have no more then 18 - 20 opening for the air in my house.

Concerning fournace and pump, I'm looking on what is available on our canadian market - Carrier and Lennox.
I've been told by Guy # 1, that I will get a proposal for two options, both of them consisting of two stage furnaces, wich sounded as miracle to my ears, and a heat pump. Guy # 2 told me, on the other hand, that I do NOT need a two-stage furnace, because heat pump acts as a first stage, so the second stage is simply the one-stage furnace ... Now I'm getting mixed and in trouble ...

Please, any suggestions or ideas ?

[beenthere]

Well, by that bogus rule of thumb you need a half ton larger heat pump then you already have that was doing a good job according to you.

So, instead of guessing. Call contractors that will do a real load calc. Screen them over the phone. If they won't do a real load calc, don't bother having them come out.

[Montreal_Canada]

Well, by that bogus rule of thumb you need a half ton larger heat pump then you already have that was doing a good job according to you.

So, instead of guessing. Call contractors that will do a real load calc. Screen them over the phone. If they won't do a real load calc, don't bother having them come out.

Thanks.
Had already two. Waiting for another one. No one did any special measurment or calculation. What should I be waiting for exactly, let me know, please ...
Yes, old pump did some job, but not the excellent one, compared with other houses, sorry ...
What do you think about two-stage furnace combined with pump ? I found some stuff on the net saying it is OK, but # 2 said - NOT ! ;-)

[beenthere]

Nothing wrong.
Some contractors think it will go to second stage right away. It won't. It works great and provides better comfort.

They should be measuring your rooms, windows, doors, asking about your insulation.

[R8FLEX]

The bottom line is that there's no point of putting high efficiency equipment into an inefficient house.
.

Is this right? It seems like an inefficient house is the perfect place to put hight efficiency equipment because that is where it will make the biggest difference in operating cost.

[jrock52766]

Thanks.
Had already two. Waiting for another one. No one did any special measurment or calculation. What should I be waiting for exactly, let me know, please ...
Yes, old pump did some job, but not the excellent one, compared with other houses, sorry ...
What do you think about two-stage furnace combined with pump ? I found some stuff on the net saying it is OK, but # 2 said - NOT ! ;-)

A load cal involves a lot of measuring and math. But a short run down is that the contractor will have to measure the square feet of all exterior walls, windows and doors. Est. the R value of wall and ceiling insulation and ACH(how loose/tight the home is). Then do a bunch of math with given factors for your area and ta-daa...now he will know how many btu's your house loses or gains according to avg. low temps. in winter and high temps. in summer. Then they can determine the size unit to suggest.

[Montreal_Canada]

Nothing wrong.
Some contractors think it will go to second stage right away. It won't. It works great and provides better comfort.

They should be measuring your rooms, windows, doors, asking about your insulation.

So, if I do understand well how it works : first heat pump will work up to -10 / -12C (sorry for Celcius), then first stage will get control, right ? So when the second stage will come into the game ?

[Montreal_Canada]

A load cal involves a lot of measuring and math. But a short run down is that the contractor will have to measure the square feet of all exterior walls, windows and doors. Est. the R value of wall and ceiling insulation and ACH(how loose/tight the home is). Then do a bunch of math with given factors for your area and ta-daa...now he will know how many btu's your house loses or gains according to avg. low temps. in winter and high temps. in summer. Then they can determine the size unit to suggest.

Jeez ! Are you talking about going to Mars !?! Neither guy did anything close to this !!!
They looked on the house, checked fournace and pump (kicking it...), asked for living area, said that new fournaces are smaller, so there is a steel bending work to do, said that they will work on it in home and call back ...

[RyanHughes]

Jeez ! Are you talking about going to Mars !?! Neither guy did anything close to this !!!
They looked on the house, checked fournace and pump (kicking it...), asked for living area, sayd that new fournaces are smaller, so there is a steel bending work to do, said that thei will work on it in home and call back ...

You're beginning to see that many companies do not do true Manual J load calculations--some don't know how, some don't see it as necessary, some are concerned with changing the size, etc...

[Montreal_Canada]

You're beginning to see that many companies do not do true Manual J load calculations--some don't know how, some don't see it as necessary, some are concerned with changing the size, etc...

Yeah, apperently almost all of them are so pro, so they do not need any calculation.
Seriously, they say that for an average 2,500 sq ft house 90,000 BTUS are good enough, so well for a 3 ton pump ...
So is it a good idea to have two stage and/or variable fournace c/w heat pump ? Looking either for Carrier 25HPA5 and 58 MTB or MVT, or Lennox XP14 / XP15 c/w G51 (as I would not need 2-stage..) or G61 ....
Thanks a lot !

[beenthere]

High efficiency equipment in a house that ins't well insulated is not a waste.
It would be nice for your heating and cooling bill if you could make improvements to youor homes weatherization.

With the proper thermostat, second stage will only come on when needed.
That may be 10° colder then when the furnace took over, or less or more. Depends on the house.

[RyanHughes]

I agree with beenthere. None of the furnaces you listed are variable-speed. I'd go with a variable-speed blower personally, for comfort and efficiency. Of course, properly-sized ductwork is necessary in any application to make a system work correctly (you mentioned that your old system worked well, though). For variable-speed furnaces, you'd be looking at Carrier's MVC, MVB or CVA (depending on efficiency) and Lennox's G60V, G61V or G71P (again depending on efficiency). A 2-stage variable-speed furnace wouldn't be a bad idea because as beenthere said there are some thermostats that can stage backup heat (I believe Honeywell's VisionPRO is one of them).

[Montreal_Canada]

I agree with beenthere. None of the furnaces you listed are variable-speed. I'd go with a variable-speed blower personally, for comfort and efficiency. Of course, properly-sized ductwork is necessary in any application to make a system work correctly (you mentioned that your old system worked well, though). For variable-speed furnaces, you'd be looking at Carrier's MVC, MVB or CVA (depending on efficiency) and Lennox's G60V, G61V or G71P (again depending on efficiency). A 2-stage variable-speed furnace wouldn't be a bad idea because as beenthere said there are some thermostats that can stage backup heat (I believe Honeywell's VisionPRO is one of them).

Thanks ! Any thought for comparing these models Cerrier versus Lennox ?

[RyanHughes]

Thanks ! Any thought for comparing these models Cerrier versus Lennox ?

The better one is the one installed properly. Carrier's Infinity control system is nice, but it's not the only way to get good indoor comfort.

[beenthere]

Ones as good as the other.

[Montreal_Canada]

I agree with beenthere. None of the furnaces you listed are variable-speed. I'd go with a variable-speed blower personally, for comfort and efficiency. Of course, properly-sized ductwork is necessary in any application to make a system work correctly (you mentioned that your old system worked well, though). For variable-speed furnaces, you'd be looking at Carrier's MVC, MVB or CVA (depending on efficiency) and Lennox's G60V, G61V or G71P (again depending on efficiency). A 2-stage variable-speed furnace wouldn't be a bad idea because as beenthere said there are some thermostats that can stage backup heat (I believe Honeywell's VisionPRO is one of them).

On Lennox site I see some fournaces to be with "Low-speed fan — Provides a consistent, continuous flow of warm air" - is it as good as variable speed ?

[RyanHughes]

On Lennox site I see some fournaces to be with "Low-speed fan — Provides a consistent, continuous flow of warm air" - is it as good as variable speed ?

When I saw this a little while ago I was confused myself. I couldn't find anything in their engineering documentation that mentioned a low fan speed setting. Does any Lennox dealer know if this furnace has a low fan speed setting for constant fan?

Update: I just looked closer into Lennox's engineering data for the G60, and it says "Terminal for continuous low speed blower operation." There's your answer. Looks like these things can be setup for continuous low speed operation. I'm not sure what the "low speed" is, though. This is good for comfort; however, a multi-speed blower cannot vary its speed and isn't as efficient as an ECM variable-speed blower.

[Montreal_Canada]

I agree with beenthere. None of the furnaces you listed are variable-speed. I'd go with a variable-speed blower personally, for comfort and efficiency. Of course, properly-sized ductwork is necessary in any application to make a system work correctly (you mentioned that your old system worked well, though). For variable-speed furnaces, you'd be looking at Carrier's MVC, MVB or CVA (depending on efficiency) and Lennox's G60V, G61V or G71P (again depending on efficiency). A 2-stage variable-speed furnace wouldn't be a bad idea because as beenthere said there are some thermostats that can stage backup heat (I believe Honeywell's VisionPRO is one of them).

When we talk for say MVB and CVA - there is a huge difference b/w 96 and 80 AFUE ... what is the price difference between them (as idea). And what about MVC ?. Thanks!!

[RyanHughes]

Sorry, it's against site rules to discuss specific pricing--even rough ideas. And I'm not familiar with Carrier's pricing anyway. You'll have to ask your Carrier dealer. :)

[Montreal_Canada]

Sorry, it's against site rules to discuss specific pricing--even rough ideas. And I'm not familiar with Carrier's pricing anyway. You'll have to ask your Carrier dealer. :)

Sure, I'm not asking about a price, but rather of ratio, I mean - both are variable and so ... but AFUE is too different, anyways, thanks !

[RyanHughes]

Montreal_Canada, let's get you on your own thread, since this thread belongs to the original poster, Nov3ice. You can continue post your concerns and continue your conversation there. Just go to the Residential HVAC forum and hit new thread up at the top-left.

Sorry for cutting into the original thread, Nov3ice; I lost track and forgot this was another thread due to the ongoing conversation!

[Montreal_Canada]

Update: I just looked closer into Lennox's engineering data for the G60, and it says "Terminal for continuous low speed blower operation." There's your answer. Looks like these things can be setup for continuous low speed operation. I'm not sure what the "low speed" is, though. This is good for comfort; however, a multi-speed blower cannot vary its speed and isn't as efficient as an ECM variable-speed blower.

So, that means the variable-speed blower will turn with anything b/w 0 and some speed constantly (or not) to produce a constant flow for filtering and temperature exchange, and the low-speed one will do samething, but with only one pre-adjusted speed only, right ?

[Montreal_Canada]

Montreal_Canada, let's get you on your own thread, since this thread belongs to the original poster, Nov3ice. You can continue post your concerns and continue your conversation there. Just go to the Residential HVAC forum and hit new thread up at the top-left.

Sorry for cutting into the original thread, Nov3ice; I lost track and forgot this was another thread due to the ongoing conversation!

Sure, sorry about that guys ! I will open new one, say Montrreal_Canada concerns ;-) Thanks !

[amd]

High efficiency equipment in a house that ins't well insulated is not a waste.
It would be nice for your heating and cooling bill if you could make improvements to youor homes weatherization.

With the proper thermostat, second stage will only come on when needed.
That may be 10° colder then when the furnace took over, or less or more. Depends on the house.

The additional money spent on a high efficiency system could go towards insulation upgrades and draft proofing.

I would take a well insulated house with an 80% furnace over a inefficient house with high end HVAC equipment any day.

[jrock52766]

with rising energy costs the question should not be "how much more will it be to upgrade now?" but rather "how much more will it cost me in utilities over the next 10 years if i go with the less efficient furnace?"