New Trane broken already

[big windy]

:(Short time lurker , first time poster . I had a Trane XV 95 furnace , XR 14 a/c , Trane Clean Effect air cleaner installed today . The furnace didn't pass the "sea trials" , the diagnostic light tripped , blinking 4 times saying the upper limit switch was open . They opened the blower cover , it tripped again . They drilled holes in the vents and got temps of 135 F . I didn't get scared till they started adjusting the high and low screws on the valve , which didn't stop it from shooting codes . They are sending a service tech out tomorrow w/ a new upper limit switch . I'm hoping that solves the problem . What a disapointment for all of us , nothing worse than getting to the end and not having it work . Forgot to mention it takes about ten minutes till shut down . I hope it is as simple as the switch . I assume it isn't a common problem. Sorry if this was a long read.

[BaldLoonie]

May well find that the switch is doing its job! Low air flow, undersized ducts, oversized furnace...

Don't recall having limit issues with any A-S/Trane 90 that was the furnace's fault.

[I_bend_metal]

I thought it was hard to stop a Trane??? :p




Disclaimer....this was not a bash....just a joke that you were all thinking....I was just the first to type it! :p

[iraqveteran]

I thought it was hard to stop a Trane??? :p




Disclaimer....this was not a bash....just a joke that you were all thinking....I was just the first to type it! :p

It aint that hard to stop a Trane. The trick is to stop it without it being noticable.

Gotta make a man-made lightning strike. That could happen.....right?:eek:

[big windy]

120,000 btu , 3.5 ton ac , same as the old Rheem equipt . It is a hair over for 2,400 square ft. , they feel the venting was more than adequate , hope they are right .

[I_bend_metal]

According to old Doc Brown...that would be about 1.21 Jigiwatts of electricity

Name that movie!

God.....I have more useless information in my head :eek:

[big windy]

You can't stop a Trane if it never started :D

[beenthere]

Sounds a bit oversized.
Was the old Rheem a 90% furnace. Or an 80% thet vented out a regular chimney.

[cmajerus]

According to old Doc Brown...that would be about 1.21 Jigiwatts of electricity

Name that movie!

God.....I have more useless information in my head :eek:Back to the future:D

I would say they used the manual E load calc on that one. The limit is doing its job I am sure, I would guess the service tech will be muttering some choice words to himself about their salesman.

[I_bend_metal]

Hey Big Windy.....one small hint....WE LOVE PICTURES!! Any good one's of the install??



cmajerus...you win the prize!

[iraqveteran]

According to old Doc Brown...that would be about 1.21 Jigiwatts of electricity

Name that movie!

God.....I have more useless information in my head :eek:

We should start a movie quote thread. That would be pretty fun.

Rules are simple. First person posts a quote. First one to answer gets to post a new quote. On and on we go. Where we will stop, nobody knows.:D

[I_bend_metal]

There already is one! It got going pretty good, but it kinda lost steam...I have a million of 'em.

[iraqveteran]

You can't stop a Trane if it never started :D

Oh it started. Just couldn't get it outta park and into Drive.

Must be the muffler bearings on the intake manifold. Their the guilty one your honor.

[iraqveteran]

There already is one! It got going pretty good, but it kinda lost steam...I have a million of 'em.

where is it. I could give you a run for your money.

[t527ed]

120,000 btu , 3.5 ton ac , same as the old Rheem equipt . It is a hair over for 2,400 square ft. , they feel the venting was more than adequate , hope they are right .



:eek::eek: what did they size it with manual geee???


was old heater 95% efficient??

[beenthere]

:eek::eek: what did they size it with manual geee???


was old heater 95% efficient??
No, the flue pipe didn't have any holes in it. :)

[I_bend_metal]

http://www.hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=166304&highlight=Movie+Quotes

It started out as a TV quote thread...ended up with a little of everything.

[iraqveteran]

That thread died.

Time to start a new one

[BaldLoonie]

120,000 btu , 3.5 ton ac , same as the old Rheem equipt . It is a hair over for 2,400 square ft. , they feel the venting was more than adequate , hope they are right .

That's a lot of furnace. Sis has same size house and 75K 92% furnace! And we get below zero each winter.

They better check static pressure of the duct system. Still think an airflow issue.

[jmac00]

120,000 btu , 3.5 ton ac , same as the old Rheem equipt . It is a hair over for 2,400 square ft. , they feel the venting was more than adequate , hope they are right .

whats the duct size??? How big is the cold air drop? The vent pipes should be 3" and they can run out 200 liner feet? How many 90° elbows are in the vent pipe?

[jmac00]

That's a lot of furnace. Sis has same size house and 75K 92% furnace! And we get below zero each winter.

They better check static pressure of the duct system. Still think an airflow issue.


thats what I'm thinking. I think he's got undersize duct, or not enough cold air return.......or both :rolleyes:

[mark beiser]

Your new furnace most likely has significantly more heating capacity than your old one, and has much higher airflow requirements.
I hope they increased your ductwork too.

Did they do a load calculation, or just replace input capacity for input capacity?

[hvaclover]

How to stop a Trane: Buy Westinghouse equipment; they make train brakes too.

See? Not so hard. Just a matter of switching suppliers.

[mayguy]

I agree, sounds like a LOT of furnace for that house! Was a Manual-J Calc done on the home when you got a bid?

A static test should be done, and also temp rise.

[big windy]

The exhaust vent and cold air intake are 3"x 6' w 3 elbows
returns are 2-14"x8" and a 6" round
send vents 10"x8" , 10"x24", 18"x8"

Rheem was 80 vented to chimney .
If I am over sized what are my options . None of the 4 contractors did static tests etc. Looks like I have a bigger problem than a switch eh.

[iraqveteran]

The exhaust vent and cold air intake are 3"x 6' w 3 elbows
returns are 2-14"x8" and a 6" round
send vents 10"x8" , 10"x24", 18"x8"

Rheem was 80 vented to chimney .
If I am over sized what are my options . None of the 4 contractors did static tests etc. Looks like I have a bigger problem than a switch eh.

Since it was just installed, I would be demanding to see the load calculation. And if it is in fact oversized, I would be wanting the proper sized unit.

If the unit is sized properly and the ductwork is the problem, then you need new ductwork. But if the contractor never mentioned the need for ductwork, I would be asking for pretty good price.

[big windy]

Will they try to detune this thing somehow or make it work somehow , defeating the purpose of buying it . What other problems can I expect ?

[iraqveteran]

If the system has been installed wrong or sized wrong, you might as well start a permanent Trane Down Again thread.

But if the system is installed right and sized right.....hooked up to the right sized and designed ductwork (which doesn't sound like the case), then you shouldn't experience many problems.



Like I said before, you need to get after this thing while its brand new. If you wait, then you are screwed. But if you catch it early enough, you may have some ground to stand on.

[beenthere]

Your new furnace. Is 20,000 BTUs more heat out put.
So in reality, they up sized your heat.

If they had put in the next size smaller furnace, you would only be 10000 BTUs output less then you had.

After they put the new limit switch in, and it still trips. Tell them you want them to do a load calc, and to put in the right size furnace.
Heck in first stage that furnace can probably heat your house when it 0° out.(just a guess.)


What size furnace were the other estimates for.

[iraqveteran]

bout time you got here beenthere.....

I've been waiting for you to come take care of this one. I'm gettin a little hungry.



Alright everyone, beenthere is on the job and will be taking all your questions from here on out.

I got another 6 pack callin my name from the fridge.:D

[beenthere]

I got 4 left in mind. :)

[iraqveteran]

I got 4 left in mind. :)

4 sixpacks????

shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiittttttttt

You'll be here all night.:D

[beenthere]

Its alredy past my bedtime.

[big windy]

I didn't notice till you asked , they were 100,000. I feel like an idiot . His price came in lower than the three other bids . Why I focused in on the model #s and not the higher btu is beyond me . DOH . I got a bigger unit for less , but it won't do me any good if it doesn't work . I can't ask the price difference ,but is it significant for 20,000 btu ?

[iraqveteran]

Its alredy past my bedtime.

I still got about 3 hours left in me. Just not here online. I can only go so blind for one night.

[beenthere]

Good chance the 100's are too big also.
As your learning, bigger isn't always better.
And cheapest can mean trouble.

You don't have the duct work for that furnace.

[iraqveteran]

Good chance the 100's are too big also.
As your learning, bigger isn't always better.
And cheapest can mean trouble.

You don't have the duct work for that furnace.

NOR THE HOUSE!!!!!!

[cmajerus]

I didn't notice till you asked , they were 100,000. I feel like an idiot . His price came in lower than the three other bids . Why I focused in on the model #s and not the higher btu is beyond me . DOH . I got a bigger unit for less , but it won't do me any good if it doesn't work . I can't ask the price difference ,but is it significant for 20,000 btu ?
price difference would be minimal, but the fact that it is oversized means you lost even if they would normally sell that furnace for 2 times the price of a 100K. Lowest bid? hmm imagine that. Don't want to sound like to big of a smartass but you focused on the price, thats why you missed the btu stated on the bid;)

[big windy]

Funny , I didn't ask for bigger , what would he gain by upsizing me ? I will let you know how this pans out. At least I won't be needing a furnace tonight .Thanks for your help.

[iraqveteran]

Funny , I didn't ask for bigger , what would he gain by upsizing me ? I will let you know how this pans out. At least I won't be needing a furnace tonight .Thanks for your help.

yeah

definately keep us posted. Get on it first thing tomorrow. Don't let them give you the run around. Its your money.

[beenthere]

Why wait till thursday, she can do it this morning when they get there. :)

[cmajerus]

Funny , I didn't ask for bigger , what would he gain by upsizing me ? I will let you know how this pans out. At least I won't be needing a furnace tonight .Thanks for your help.He doesn't he loses money when he has to change it to a smaller one. He sized by the previous equipment size, and lost.

[iraqveteran]

Why wait till thursday, she can do it this morning when they get there. :)

oh yeah.....your right.

Have them there first thing TODAY.

Actually, I can see the call to the on-call tech right now. You wanna explain why my 12 hour old system is already FREAKIN OUT????? hahaha that would be entertaining.

[DanW13]

Why not just heat the uninsulated garage and call it good:D No more oversize equipment !!!

[big windy]

How did you know about the garage ? It is insulated , but can't put in returns , against code , negative pressure etc. . Ha Ha !

[mayguy]

Not knowing the age of the home and other info, I would almost want to bet you could get by with a 80,000 model.

Ask for a manual J, and if you want, you can down load a home owner's manual-J up above for $50.

All the stuff you got on there, sure hope they did a two stage t-stat???

[big windy]

Honeywell Pro TH4000 series.

[jmac00]

Man, do you have a problem:confused:

First off, I think we can be safe in concluding your furnace is over size :(

second, you say the returns are two--14 x 8 and a 6" ???

a 120K BTU furnace will move 2000 cfm. On a furnace this big, I would install a MINIMUM of 10 x 24 in a bottom return or two 8 x 24, one on each side of the furnace. I think your return is inadequate.



NOW.....not all is lost. The TUY120R9V5V can handle a 3½ ton air conditioner. Increase your return air to, two 24 x 8 (24 x 10, if it will fit) and--->

check your dip switch's, I would set them up this way for 3½ tons of a/c~~~~~

1st stage heat, DIP SWITCH 7 & 8 to NORMAL. sw7---on, sw8---off. with a static pressure of 0.5 this should give you a fan speed of 1370 cfm with a delta T of 49° (for *HI* speed set them to sw7---off and sw8---off)

2nd stage heat, DIP SWITCH 7 & 8 to NORMAL. sw7---on, sw8---off

AIR FLOW SETTING FOR COOLING

DIP SWITCH 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 (set the fan speed to 350 cfm/ton)
sw1---off, sw2---on, sw3---off, sw4---on ~~~~~ with a static pressure of 0.5, these setting will give you 1220cfm.

If you set the dip switchs to 400cfm/ton the minimum fan speed you will get is 1400cfm

[mayguy]

Honeywell Pro TH4000 series.

You have a heat pump on this set up?? This stat is for a heat pump, and if you have a heat pump, I'd ask for the Honeywell IAQ to get a MUCH better control of the heat pump, and stage the gas furnace.

But before you do that, we got to fix this "maybe oversized" furnace.

[beenthere]

TH4110 is a standard 1 heat one cool sat.

[mayguy]

TH4110 is a standard 1 heat one cool sat.

I saw that after I posted, and there is the TH4210 that is for heat pump.

We don't know off hand of what model he may have.

Come to think of it, he may very well have the TH4110 being he said the furnace locks out after 10 min... The board is firing off 2nd stage around that time.

[beenthere]

Plus, I believe the 4210 can be used on fossil fuel fnaces. Like the 5220 can.

[mayguy]

Plus, I believe the 4210 can be used on fossil fuel fnaces. Like the 5220 can.

With a heat pump as a back up, yes. Gas alone, no.

[beenthere]

With a heat pump as a back up, yes. Gas alone, no.
Hmmm.

For some reason, I think your right. Now I got to go look.


You were right I was wrong.

[big windy]

So the thermostat may be wrong too ?

[mayguy]

So the thermostat may be wrong too ?

Do you know the full model # you got? If you got the TH4110, it can be used. but it won't fire 2nd stage as needed, the timer on the board will do that, and lot of us don't like that..

But if it's TH4210, then it won't work, unless you have a heat pump set up with your furnace.

[beenthere]

Yea, 2 stage furnaces on timers don't have the ability to provide the comfort like a thermostat controlling it would give.

[big windy]

Th4110d1007

[beenthere]

Th4110d1007
Single stage heat single stage cool. They are going to run the second stage off the furnace boards timer.

When did they say they will be back?

[big windy]

Well after replacing the limit switch it still tripped , he also removed the ducting to prove to me it wasn't a restrictive venting issue . The service tech believes it is a burner issue . I spoke to the owner of the outfit he promises complete satisfaction , they are replacing the furnace and will re-evaluate the sizing . If I want a different thermostat (tech felt that the thermostat was a good one) , they will also get whatever I want (any recommendations?) It seems to be being handled as professionally possible . Except for possibly having the wrong size furnace. They will advise me on Monday the details . Trane is being called by the company.

[hvaclover]

Since this Trane stopped, tell them to give you a Westinghouse 95% 2stg with VS motor.

Like i said, Westinghouse makes the brakes for Tranes(trains).

[beenthere]

Did he remove the supply and return ducting?

A Honeywell TH5220 digital non programable, or a TH6220 digital programable thermostat.

If you need more then a 80,000 BTU 90% I'll be suppirised.

[BaldLoonie]

Where are you? What's the house like? More than normal amount of windows? No insulation? I'm with been, still suspicious on sizing.

As I pointed out, Sis has a 75K 92% on a 2 story house about your size. Ducts in the crawl, leaky windows, decent insulation. At about -5° it will run constantly, might start to lose ground about -10° out but that's once every 10 years or so. She got a test furnace - I had a choice of 75K or 120K and wasn't about to go the monster.

I would certainly request the 2 stage thermostat wired properly instead of crippling a great furnace with a timed 2nd stage.

[big windy]

Removed supply and return . Looking for a programmable thermostat .

[iraqveteran]

Removed supply and return . Looking for a programmable thermostat .

Honeywell 8000 series.

touchscreen programmable.

You can go to the IAQ if you want. Thats the macdaddy. If not, I would tell them to put in a TCON803. Thats the Trane number for the Honeywell 8000.

[iraqveteran]

So it tripped even with the supply and return ducts disconnected???

Did he check the gas pressures and check the burners to see the flame???

[beenthere]

Well, if there is another problem besides being over sized. Then your lucky it showed up now instead of later.

Many of us have seen the effects of gross oversizing. And those home owners weren't happy with the end result.

[iraqveteran]

Well, if there is another problem besides being over sized. Then your lucky it showed up now instead of later.

Many of us have seen the effects of gross oversizing. And those home owners weren't happy with the end result.

ya got that one right.


Go get a cookie and a beer. By the looks of the posts tonight......it's gonna get long and entertaining.:D

[beenthere]

ya got that one right.


Go get a cookie and a beer. By the looks of the posts tonight......it's gonna get long and entertaining.:D
Already got the beer infront of me.:)

[mayguy]

As been pointed out and irag pointed out, get either the Honeywell FocusPro, or the VisionPro line t-stat.. If they say running a new t-stat wire going to be an issue, then go into the IAQ t-stat (YTH9421)

Did they do a temp rise reading?

[iraqveteran]

Already got the beer infront of me.:)

then here's your song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaE4K5fN8Ek

[big windy]

So it tripped even with the supply and return ducts disconnected???

Did he check the gas pressures and check the burners to see the flame???

Yes it tripped w/ supply and returns disconnected, he checked gas pressures as did the installers . He was talking to the installer on the 2-way about a piece of sheet metal over the burners , the installer wasn't sure if this piece was to be removed for my install , he hadn't seen this before. The tech was mulling over removing the venting to see if this piece was over the burner and restricting air flow . I offered to let him cut an access to see , rather than dissassembling everything , kinda glad he didn't .He couldn't look up because burner is in the way .They might have left some deflector that should have been removed . Return is on the right ,goes through Trane effects , Supply comes out the top , is there something they should have changed or removed for this ?

[beenthere]

A 120,000 BTU furnace should have 2 sides for return if they want a 50° temp rise in high..
Needs 2100 CFM of air for that rise.
almost 1600 for 70°.