Upgrade or stay put

[Taylormade2]

I recently moved into a home that has 2900 sqft, single level built in 1984. The interior was gutted about 2 years ago and remodeled, including new plumbing and low e glass windows. As soon as I moved in, I upgraded both the inside and outside electrical panels.

The 2 items I have let are the A/C unit (or perhaps Heat pump here in Orlando) and attic insulation. I know the attic insulation is R19 so I would like to upgrade to R30 with blown in insulation.

The A/C unit, air handler and coil unit are Rheem with a 10 seer rating on the outside unit. I assume it's single speed only. It was built in January 1999. It seems to be working ok and I plan to have a service performed on it this weekend.

Considering the unit is 9 years old and only a SEER of 10, should I upgrade to a 14 SEER unit? I am also trying to get a feel on Trane vs Carrier vs ?, and there does not seem to be a consensus on a superior brand.

Thank you for your input.

[gary_g]

I would increase/improve insulation first and foremost. This investment pays back over the life of the home.

As far as replacing the system to improve efficiency, this almost never pays for itself over the life of the system if rates remain contant. If the system is beyond repair, different story. If your electric rates have increased dramatically, payback time may be reasonable.

Good luck.

[gary_g]

Double Post.

[DanW13]

I would suppect that as long as the upgrades that have been done already were done the right way and if you were to add more insulation into the attic and upgrade to a new system at least a 14 seer maybe even a 2 speed AC with a VS blower on the airhandler most any brand you pick will work just as good as the next brand. What really matters most is the installation of the new equipment. Carrier/Bryant are the same equipment, American Standard is good as well, Me having a bias opinion I would go with a mid line Carrier/Bryant equipment. But of course this all depends on your budget will limit you in how much $$$$ you have to spend. Get several estimate's and do your homework on the brands your interested in purchasing, ask the installers/contractors to perform load calc's to make sure your home is properly sized will help ensure your comfort after your equipment is installed.

[RomulanSpy]

These guys gave this advice:

1) Keep up your maintenace on the A/C (yearly tuneups, filter change, condenser clean, yada yada)

2) Start getting ready for the change over by learning as much as possible about units, installer,etc

3) Let it ride until your unit begins to nickle and dime you to death and then get that old one out

4) Remember, its all about the installation (as I have learned) and not the brand of unit.

5) Bookmark this page and read and learn.

[gary_g]

These guys gave this advice:

1) Keep up your maintenace on the A/C (yearly tuneups, filter change, condenser clean, yada yada)

2) Start getting ready for the change over by learning as much as possible about units, installer,etc

3) Let it ride until your unit begins to nickle and dime you to death and then get that old one out

4) Remember, its all about the installation (as I have learned) and not the brand of unit.

5) Bookmark this page and read and learn.

Outstanding advice from an extraterrestrial.

Take care.

[beenthere]

Add your insulation first. This will save more money then a SEER upgrade.

At 9 years of age. Only replace it if yoou find the improvements have made it too oversized to keep your humidity down to a reasonable level.
Even then, you may want to consider a whole house dehumidifier before a unit change out.

You can use the home owner version of hvac calc to see if bring your attic up to R30 will lower your load enough to use a smaller A/C.

[mbarson]

Get an energy audit. Make sure to air seal before adding insulation. Insulation and air sealing have the best ROI. Do a new load calc after upgrades, you will need smaller sized equipment. Brand of equipment makes no difference. Do it correctly and you will enjoy years of comfort and energy savings.

[ericrocks]

You can also talk with your service professional about the possibility to replace the metering device with a TXV valve.
It will cost you some money, but it will increase the SEER rating from 10 to 11.5 .. 12

[paul42]

There are several things you can do that have a reasonable pay back period.

Replace conventional bulbs with CFLs, but only if they are not on a dimmer, motion detector, light sensor or other electronic control.

If the refrigerator is more than 10 years old, the pay back for a new one can be as short as five or six years.

Even with low-e glass, solar screens on west facing windows can be quite effective.

If you ducts are in your attic, have them tested and any leaks fixed.

[beenthere]

with a TXV valve.
It will cost you some money, but it will increase the SEER rating from 10 to 11.5 .. 12

It might only increase it to a 10.5

Some 10 SEER units show no increase in SEER by adding a TXV.

On a 9 year old 10 SEER, but the time he pays for the TXV, and hard start kit.
He won't get his money back before he needs to replace the system.

[DanW13]

A question on those TXV valves, What is there purpose and if a person were to have one installed on there AC OD unit or ID unit which ever one it goes on are they able to be reused on a new euipment when a upgrade is made?

[beenthere]

They are a metering device. There job is to correctly meter teh proper amount of refrigerant to the coil base on coil pressure and temp.

Would you want to have a used radiator installed in your new car.

[ericrocks]

I respectfully disagree with Beenthere about the minimal SEER increase by adding a TXV valve. I indeed find that with those cheaper, very small condensor 10 SEER systems the efficiency gain is lower, but overall with a decent 10 SEER system you can expect at least 10% efficiency improvement and less wear on the compressor.

But, of course, adding a TXV valve is easily said. It takes quite some work and needs to be done properly by a trustworthy professional. If you only plan to keep your system for another year or two, don't bother looking into this. You'll never get your investment back.

Don't try to re-use an old TXV valve when you buy a new system. The TXV valve itself is not expensiver and most new systems come with it.

[beenthere]

Well, if I find my old CD, with the ratings of 10 SEER units with the TXV added only showing .25 and .5 SEER increase I'll post the rating.

Its not just the TXV, its the type of TXV. A balance port will improve it more then a non balanced port.

It also depends on the compressor in the system weather or not you'll get an improvement, and how much.

[beenthere]

H4DB030 10 SEER condenser with ARI matching F2RO036 air handler with piston, SEER 10.8,
with TXV, SEER 11

H4DB024 10 SEER condenser with ARI matching G1FA coil for furnace with piston, SEER 10.6,
with TXV, SEER 11

There are several other listings showing from .2 to 1 SEER, and some of them also require a TDR to get that full SEER increase.

Don't get a TXV installed on your existing system to save operating cost alone.

If your electric bill for cooling cost you 500 bucks for the year, the money you spent adding a TXV to an existing system can take longer then the life span left in the equipment.

[DanW13]

So since my OD Unit is only 7yrs old 10 seer Payne that is used maybe 2-3 weeks a yr and I have a VS furnace it would not pay to have one installed. Does a VS furnace increase seer over just a single speed blower and having both a TXV and a VS blower would not raise the seer rating to make it worth having done ?

[Taylormade2]

Thanks for everyone's input!

It makes complete sense that improving the attic insulation to R30 would decrease the demand or need for a larger capacity A/C unit.

I am having an A/C person come out today to do the load calcs and perhaps I'll have someone from my electrical company as well. It may be that I can do the Attic only for now but the insulation person advised me to make sure any attic work is done 1st so people don't trample the insulation and reduce it's efficacy.

In addition, I spoke with a neighbor who is a retired a/c repairman. He told me that this year is the year to upgrade if you want to be able to stick with R22. His opinion was that R22 is a superior refrigerant over R410a. From what I've gathered on this forum, however, I don't think that this is true. What do you guys think?

[beenthere]

Neither refrigerant is better then the other.

[Taylormade2]

The estimator came out today and said the current Rheem unit we have is a 3.5 ton system and that it is not adequate for a 2900sq ranch. He did the load calculations and estimated 53,000 btu with R19 attic insulation. I live in Orlando, FL btw.

He recommended going with a 4 ton unit and adding a air return in our masterbedroom, a room which is always too warm. (The only air return is where the air filter goes in the wall.) This upgrade plus the insulation upgrade should be sufficient according to him.

He's going to fax me the proposal tomorrow with 3 different systems, all Trane, as he is a Trane dealer.

[beenthere]

How does the rest of the house cool with your current unit? Does it maintain the temp you set the stat to.
If the rest of the house is cooling ok with your current 3.5 ton. That room may need a return, or more supply.

[Taylormade2]

Yes, the rest of the home seems fine except for a sun room area. He suggested adding a return to the master bedroom and an additional supply on the other side of the room. He would also add a supply to our walk in closet that is always too hot and stuffy. I'll never understand the logic of supplies being placed only on one side of a ranch home with no returns other than the one at the air handler. Our roof and ceiling are vaulted and there is attic access throughout the entire home.

We have a sun room that was an addition at some time that is interior space (i.e. not a screened in porch, etc) that has no supply either. That area is always warmer especially since it is lined completely with windows even though they are low e windows. He suggested adding a return there as well.

He stated that the vent and duct sizing is appropriate and that the existing duct work had no issues.

[beenthere]

You not going to get that sunroom to cool right with the same system as the rest of the house. I don't care how big of a unit is put in.
It simply gains heat faster then the rest of the house.

If the unit is cycling off while keeping the rest of the house cool, it sounds more like duct trouble then size.
How ever, a good 4 ton 2 stage is ok.

[Taylormade2]

I received the quote this morning for the following options:

1. XR13 w/Variable speed, 14 seer/8.5, 4TWR3048, 4TEE3D40, var fan.
48.5kbtu cooling/46kbtu heating

2. XL15i w/Var, 14.25 Seer/9.00, 2TWX5048, 2TEE3D49, var fan
47.0kbtu cooling/43.5 kbtu heating

3. XL16i w/var, 15 SEER/8.5, 4TWX6048, 4TEE3D40, var fan
45.5kbtu cooling/41.5 kbtu heating

All 3 would use a BayHTR1405 15kw heater and the T-Con 803 thermostat.

I will be adding a new return in the masterbedroom and 2 supplies, 1 on the opposite side of our masterbedroom and 1 in the master closet.

I suppose I could just do the duct work alone to solve the heating and cooling issues but I am tempted to replace the Rheem unit as well.

I am also confused about the above options. Why wouldn't the more expensive units have higher btu ratings?

[beenthere]

Just because one car is more expensive then another, doesn't mean it gets better gas milage then the cheaper one.

[Taylormade2]

That's true. But hopefully the more expensive car has features that you'll enjoy such as sunroof, leather seats, navigation, etc.

Why would I want to choose the XL15i or XL16i over the XR13?

Thanks!

[beenthere]

15 higher efficiency, uses less electric per BTU then 13.
16 also higher efficiency but 2 stage for better comfort.

[Taylormade2]

The cost of just adding the additional supplies and return is about 1/10th of the cost of a new system.

According to the person who gave me the estimate, he states that he can't guarantee the system will cool properly if the duct work alone is done. This individual may be honest or perhaps he just wants to make a sale.

How do I know if the current 10 SEER , 3.5ton Rheem unit can handle 2 additional supplies and the installation of a return?

[beenthere]

Well, if he would have checked how much air your system is moving he would know.

Since he didn't check, he's just guessing, and hoping you'll decide to get a bigger A/C.