Domestic Drilling For Oil

[Carnak]

I see this come up in post after post.

I remember the Yom Kippur War and the Iranian Revolution. Major fuel shortages and the price shot up.

We have the prices shooting up now but there are no shortages. No "Sorry No Gas" signs up at stations. No long line ups.

I think the oil companies like the prices up right where they are. I do not see them in a hurry to drill new wells, build more refineries to increase supply at the present point in time.

I do not them in a hurry to increase supply so as to drive down the price.

[Carnak]

Some years back, when it hit 70 a barrel there was a big run on drilling in Canada. They have been cutting back since then.

[2cool4us]

Steadily escalating the US dollar when soon be worthless on the global market. An educated perception might see the US changing currency to the EURO.:eek:

[mrs reb77]

Yeah, right.
Backed by?
You can't just change a nation's currency over night--we'd still have our same issues.

Metric didn't work out so well in this country either.

[mrs reb77]

Saw a news story this eve about how with the high gas prices, demand is falling so the refineries are cutting back on production...that seems a bit counter productive if the objective would be reducing the price of gas. It was a story in conjunction with the hurricane forecast which I guess is a huge waste of time and money because they also said that no-one actually pays any attention to it--seeing as they're basically only right about 12% of the time (lucky guesses?).

[2cool4us]

Along with the other oil guzzling nation's can be directly tracked at the present on their consumption of petro and its price per barrel. Big OIL entities along with other Fortune 100 corps have finally placed a strangle hold on the global economy.:mad:

[bootlen]

Some years back, when it hit 70 a barrel there was a big run on drilling in Canada. They have been cutting back since then.

And you are clueless as to the reason.

[Carnak]

clue me in, it's not like someone just discovered tar sands

[bootlen]

I'll let you answer it your self. Do oil companies sell gasoline and diesel?

[The Doctor]

Was just about to start a thread on energy prices, specifically oil. So maybe this will fit, maybe not... this article attempts to refute a gov't report which claiming that energy prices fell in the month of April:eek: This report about falling prices :rolleyes: was put out by the U.S. Labor Department?

Here is the conclusion of the refutation of the government lie:
"The (U.S.)government wants to shape perceptions in order to minimize dissatisfaction with its irresponsible monetary and fiscal policies. When the financial press goes along and parrots statements that are obviously false, it fails in its duty to its readers."

That is the conclusion of the article: that the statistics are OBVIOUSLY fudged to say what you and I can plainly see is untrue. Or as Chico Marx would say, " Who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes?"

Here (http://www.mises.org/story/2994) is the article in which the author tries to demonstrate that the facts are whatever those in charge of the stats want to say that day, month, etc. Not breaking news, but it just fits in with the whole oil price/no refinery cluster...

[Carnak]

they even sell beer and sodas

[bootlen]

they even sell beer and sodas

So I can take yes for an answer? Assuming so...why would an oil company NOT want to make the very product it sells?

[Carnak]

So I can take yes for an answer? Assuming so...why would an oil company NOT want to make the very product it sells?well, why would OPEC strategically set production rates

[bootlen]

To keep the price of crude high.

But I thought you said oil companies were the reason.

[Carnak]

no you said I was clueless as to why drilling seems to be getting cutback

[bootlen]

no you said I was clueless as to why drilling seems to be getting cutback

Then why bring up OPEC?

[Carnak]

You asked why would someone not want to sell their product so I pointed out why would OPEC vary production in a product they sell.


are you going to beat around the bush all night or are you going to clue me in here boot

[bootlen]

You asked why would someone not want to sell their product so I pointed out why would OPEC vary production in a product they sell.


are you going to beat around the bush all night or are you going to clue me in here boot

You never answered the question. Why would the oil companies not want to make what they sell?

Instead you brought up OPEC. WHO'S beating around the bush?

[Carnak]

I answered the question before you asked it, they like the high prices. Now clue me in and quit pussy footing around.

[bootlen]

The oil companies are not making more gas/diesel because it is not profitable to do so. And it would not matter anyway because they still have to get the crude from somewhere else, thanks to enviro idiots.

And you are right. Why should the oil companies bring price down. You know they are only showing about 8% profit? That's down from 11% of 10 years ago. And they are obligated by law to do all they can to profit as much as possible. Otherwise, they could lose their charter.

[Carnak]

http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/01/news/companies/exxon_earnings/

[RoBoTeq]

The oil companies are not making more gas/diesel because it is not profitable to do so. And it would not matter anyway because they still have to get the crude from somewhere else, thanks to enviro idiots.

And you are right. Why should the oil companies bring price down. You know they are only showing about 8% profit? That's down from 11% of 10 years ago. And they are obligated by law to do all they can to profit as much as possible. Otherwise, they could lose their charter.
Where do you get that oil companies are only making an 8% profit?

Oil companies just love the price of oil products continuing to go up. The higher the prices go, the more the oil companies can make from less product being sold. Less product being sold means less expenses being put into refineries. I'd sure like to make more by doing less.

[bootlen]

Where do you get that oil companies are only making an 8% profit?

Oil companies just love the price of oil products continuing to go up. The higher the prices go, the more the oil companies can make from less product being sold. Less product being sold means less expenses being put into refineries. I'd sure like to make more by doing less.

Yes, in raw dollars. But 8% is the percentage. Maybe more like 8.2 or 8.3.

[bootlen]

http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/01/news/companies/exxon_earnings/

The profit was not the percentages in the article. Those percentages were how much the raw dollars increased. In other words, price at the pump goes up AND sales volume increases mean more raw dollars but the profit percentage remains the same can mean huge increase in raw dollar profit.

Say the volume of a goods goes from 10 units/day to 100 units/day. And the cost due to mining/extraction/production/delivery/sales of the goods goes from $1 to $5.
That means the total sales goes from $100/day to $5000/day. But because the cost of the raw material is a huge factor in increase in the raw material, less profit in raw dollars is down but the huge increase in sales makes for a much larger increase in raw dollar profit.

I would much rather sell 1000 units at $2 each than 100 units at $8 each at 8% profit margin.

[Slatts]

Metric didn't work out so well in this country either.
Back in the late 60s when Australia went metric some whit came up with the idea that the whole project be put off till the old people died.

If I was a group of unnamed middle eastern nations who happened to have been breeding on top of a sea of oil for the last few millennium and suddenly found that people were willing to pay good money for the stuff, then found that the tide in said sea were ebbing, I would tend to restrict supply of the oil to force up prices, decrease demand and prolong the profits. But that's just me.

As I understand it Saudi Arabia still quotes its oil reserves (http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3665) as about the same as it did 20 years ago. Nobody is allowed to do an independent survey.
Kinda makes me wonder what's really left there.

[bootlen]

It is nothing more than our dependence on foreign oil that has prices at $4 and rising. Again, thank you, enviro libs.

[Carnak]

The profit was not the percentages in the article. Those percentages were how much the raw dollars increased. In other words, price at the pump goes up AND sales volume increases mean more raw dollars but the profit percentage remains the same can mean huge increase in raw dollar profit.

Say the volume of a goods goes from 10 units/day to 100 units/day. And the cost due to mining/extraction/production/delivery/sales of the goods goes from $1 to $5.
That means the total sales goes from $100/day to $5000/day. But because the cost of the raw material is a huge factor in increase in the raw material, less profit in raw dollars is down but the huge increase in sales makes for a much larger increase in raw dollar profit.

I would much rather sell 1000 units at $2 each than 100 units at $8 each at 8% profit margin.Banks make more money when intrest rates are low. They borrow your money and say pay you two dollars for every hundred, then they turn around and loan it to someone else and charge them 4 dollars. So they spend 2 to make 2.

When interest rates are higher they pay you 10 dollars for for every 100 they borrow from you and charge someone else 12 dollars for every hundred so they spend 10 to make 2.

Banks create more money than there really is. The oil companies cannot create more oil than there really is.

You can argue percents all the time and blame it on tree huggers but they are making billions, record amounts of profit per share. The CNN article reports they are stepping up drilling but I think the big boys are in no rush to drill, maybe independent producers are but not the big boys they like it just the way it is.

Biggest share holder in Syncrude, the Athabaska Oil sands development is Imperial Oil, aka Esso, aka Exxon. Huge cost over runs up there, and an expensive process. Fort MacMurray is like a gold rush town right now, coffee and donut chains do not even open until 4 as they need high school kids to work them and the kids are getting $25 an hour.

Those oil sands are the second largest oil reserve in the world, but you need sky high prices to make them viable. The largest supplier of oil to the USA is Canada, Canada's largest reserves are the Oil Sands, and Exxon, Conoco-Philips are in there like a dirty shirt.

Is the price of West Texas Crude somehow cheaper than what it costs to get some foreign crude of comparable qulaity to the refineries in the USA or do you think they are going to get as much as they can for it?

http://www.economagic.com/em-cgi/data.exe/var/west-texas-crude-long

How is opening up drilling going to lower prices unless you give all the oil rights to the little guys? Maybe implememnt some anti-capitalist policies if you want to see prices come down.

This is a well played chess game and very successful with the masses thinking it is all the tree huggers fault.

Like farting and blaming it on the dog,

[Carnak]

I would much rather sell 1000 units at $2 each than 100 units at $8 each at 8% profit margin.


They have gone from 1000 @ 2 to 1000 @ 8

The demand is there, the supply is there. Even with China and India stepping up consumption, they are no long line ups in North America, there is no supply shortage to a big demand like in the 70s. They raise the price and we are forced to keep buying it.

Open your eyes and quit believing it is the dog that you smell.

[Carnak]

this does not seem to be following supply and demand

this is like monopoly, collusion, price fixing

[tonys]

It is nothing more than our dependence on foreign oil that has prices at $4 and rising. Again, thank you, enviro libs.


a LOT of Chevy Yukons in a typical Wal-Mart parking lot...

does demand have anything to do with it?
wait...there's the problematic emerging middle class in Asia.
A little more complicated than a singular issue/cause and name calling?


...back to your 'estimating'.

[k-fridge]

a LOT of Chevy Yukons in a typical Wal-Mart parking lot...

does demand have anything to do with it?
wait...there's the problematic emerging middle class in Asia.
A little more complicated than a singular issue/cause and name calling?


...back to your 'estimating'.
Yukon is a GMC product. :D

[tonys]

that's part of the problem...for GM that is.

how can a German-auto buying person (such as yours truly) keep track of the confusing product line...

[Carnak]

a LOT of Chevy Yukons in a typical Wal-Mart parking lot...

I do not notice anyone stepping up production of K-Cars this time around. Fuel cells and electric getting some press this time around

[bootlen]

They have gone from 1000 @ 2 to 1000 @ 8

The demand is there, the supply is there. Even with China and India stepping up consumption, they are no long line ups in North America, there is no supply shortage to a big demand like in the 70s. They raise the price and we are forced to keep buying it.


The oil producing nations have gone up in price. The oil companies had to in order to show a profit. I suspect you are just angry because you don't own oil stock.

[Carnak]

I am not angry boots even though I pay more for fuel than you.

I just think blaming prices on enviro libs is foolish.

Your biggest supplier does not wear turbans and the big oil companies are right in there.

Look at how those West Texas crude prices fluctuate. Jumps right up in 1974, jumps right up in 1979, jumps right up now. I guess it is the foreigners fault for jacking up prices so the domestic has no choice but jack up the price too.

If you start drilling to get more domestic supply, you better legislate out the big boys and let the little guy do it. That does not sound much like capitalism though.

[bootlen]

I am not angry boots even though I pay more for fuel than you.

I just think blaming prices on enviro libs is foolish.

Your biggest supplier does not wear turbans and the big oil companies are right in there.

Look at how those West Texas crude prices fluctuate. Jumps right up in 1974, jumps right up in 1979, jumps right up now. I guess it is the foreigners fault for jacking up prices so the domestic has no choice but jack up the price too.

If you start drilling to get more domestic supply, you better legislate out the big boys and let the little guy do it. That does not sound much like capitalism though.

Most of our oil comes from Mexico or S.A. They're pissed at us, too.

If the U.S. was drilling ANWAR and refineries were fired up, prices in the U.S. would drop, as would foreign oil prices. It's the enviro libs who do not want to drill ANWAR and who have such tight enviro regs on refineries that they are not profitable so no one wants to fire them up.

[tonys]

Source: Oilsands Review

Economics, reliability, and refinery needs drive upgrading decisions

Darrell Stonehouse

Upgraders are the massive pots and pans used to cook low-value bitumen from Alberta's oilsands into higher-value synthetic crude oil. Right now there are many oil companies looking to build these multi-billion dollar facilities - over three million barrels per day of new upgrading capacity is under construction or planned in North America over the next decade. Companies with upgraders still in the planning stages are weighing choices such as the location of the upgrader, the technology employed, and refinery customer needs before making final decisions.

[tonys]

U.S. fuel Ethanol Production


Year Millions of Gallons
1980 175
1981 215
1982 350
1983 375
1984 430
1985 610
1986 710
1987 830
1988 845
1989 870
1990 900
1991 950
1992 1,100
1993 1,200
1994 1,350
1995 1,400
1996 1,100
1997 1,300
1998 1,400
1999 1,470
2000 1,630
2001 1,770
2002 2,130
2003 2,800
2004 3,400
2005 3,904
2006 4,855
2007 6,500
2008 8,500 (projected)

[Carnak]

Most of our oil comes from Mexico or S.A. They're pissed at us, too.

If the U.S. was drilling ANWAR and refineries were fired up, prices in the U.S. would drop, as would foreign oil prices. It's the enviro libs who do not want to drill ANWAR and who have such tight enviro regs on refineries that they are not profitable so no one wants to fire them up.

Might want to search who your biggest supplier is. It comes from the north.

Big oil is in the north like a dirty shirt.

[Carnak]

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_level_imports/current/import.html

[Jack2007]

Here is another interesting statistic;

For 2007, the Top 10 exporters of finished gasoline to the U.S. in million barrels were:
( LINK (http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3887) )

1. United Kingdom 25.147 million barrels (total for the year)
2. U.S. Virgin Islands 23.590
3. France 11.209
4. Canada 10.605
5. Netherlands 10.518
6. Norway 8.406
7. Germany 8.351
8. Russia 7.387
9. Italy 7.239
10. OPEC Countries 5.516

Source: U.S. Imports by Country of Origin (http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_impcus_a2_nus_epm0f_im0_mbbl_a.htm)

[Jack2007]

More interesting info;

Who is getting rich?

Gas stations: 7 to 10 cents going to the gas station
Taxes; government takes about 40 cents right off the top
Transportation: 23 to 26 cents per gallon
Refining: About 24 cents a gallon
Profits for refiners have been squeezed lately because the price they pay for oil has risen so much faster than the price they can sell the gas for. This helps explain why Big Oil companies -like Exxon, which actually buys more crude oil than it produces - haven't seen their profits rise as much as the price of oil.

Crude oil: This is the most expensive part of a gallon of gas. Of every gallon of gas $2.07 from every gallon of gas goes to producers of crude like Chevron (CVX, Fortune 500), BP (BP), and smaller outfits like Anadarko (APC, Fortune 500) and Marathon (MRO, Fortune 500), or national oil companies controlled by countries like Saudi Arabia, Mexico or Venezuela.

(snip)

EIA estimates it costs U.S. oil companies an average of about $24 a barrel to find, develop and produce oil worldwide, but that doesn't include costs like transportation, administration, or income taxes - which can be substantial.
While Exxon made $40 billion in 2007, a 60% increase from 2004, it paid $100 billion in taxes and royalties.

(snip)

http://money.cnn.com/2008/03/13/news/economy/gas_gallon/index.htm

[whec720]

I like this thread....very imformative. Keep the stuff coming.

[classical]

Here is another interesting statistic;

For 2007, the Top 10 exporters of finished gasoline to the U.S. in million barrels were:
( LINK (http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3887) )

1. United Kingdom 25.147 million barrels (total for the year)
2. U.S. Virgin Islands 23.590
3. France 11.209
4. Canada 10.605
5. Netherlands 10.518
6. Norway 8.406
7. Germany 8.351
8. Russia 7.387
9. Italy 7.239
10. OPEC Countries 5.516

Source: U.S. Imports by Country of Origin (http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_impcus_a2_nus_epm0f_im0_mbbl_a.htm)

The reason we are importing Gasoline instead of exporting it rest on the shoulders of the Liberals. Our refineries cannot crack the high sulfur crude from the Middle East we can only crack light sweet crude that comes from our part of the world.

The reason West Texas crude cost more to produce is the fields are almost depleted and extraction is much more costly then from younger less depleted fields. The oil in the Middle East is closer to the surface it is dirtier (younger) and is easy to extract. New fields in NA and SA most specifically offshore Gulf of Mexico it is taking years to bring fields on line and each new field cost over 10 Billion dollars to initiate.

Thirty years ago when they first opened up the North Sea fields it was costing One Billion to open a single rig, the cost was so great the UK had to subsidize and force the companies to drill. Now since oil is selling for a more reasonable price it is cost effective for companies to develop areas like the deep wells of the Gulf, ANWAR and the Sand fields of Canada.

[filterchanger]

Very interesting, must watch.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8668319287834598272&q=&hl=en

[air311]

More interesting info;

Who is getting rich?

Gas stations: 7 to 10 cents going to the gas station
Taxes; government takes about 40 cents right off the top
Transportation: 23 to 26 cents per gallon
Refining: About 24 cents a gallon
Profits for refiners have been squeezed lately because the price they pay for oil has risen so much faster than the price they can sell the gas for. This helps explain why Big Oil companies -like Exxon, which actually buys more crude oil than it produces - haven't seen their profits rise as much as the price of oil.

Crude oil: This is the most expensive part of a gallon of gas. Of every gallon of gas $2.07 from every gallon of gas goes to producers of crude like Chevron (CVX, Fortune 500), BP (BP), and smaller outfits like Anadarko (APC, Fortune 500) and Marathon (MRO, Fortune 500), or national oil companies controlled by countries like Saudi Arabia, Mexico or Venezuela.

(snip)

EIA estimates it costs U.S. oil companies an average of about $24 a barrel to find, develop and produce oil worldwide, but that doesn't include costs like transportation, administration, or income taxes - which can be substantial.
While Exxon made $40 billion in 2007, a 60% increase from 2004, it paid $100 billion in taxes and royalties.

(snip)

http://money.cnn.com/2008/03/13/news/economy/gas_gallon/index.htm

Yeah, those poor oil companies are having a rough go of it, what with only a few billion dollars a quarter in profits. How are they going to survive?

[air311]

It is nothing more than our dependence on foreign oil that has prices at $4 and rising. Again, thank you, enviro libs.

It's always those damn liberals who are the problem huh. Even if we drill here, the amount of oil we would extract wouldn't be enough to sustain us for long. I'm not against drilling here, it would be a quick fix, but that's the problem, it would be just a quick fix. We need long term solutions, and oil isn't one of them. We need new sources of energy. A lot of the technology is there, we're just to addicted to oil too much to invest in them.

[tunnel_rat]

Yeah, those poor oil companies are having a rough go of it, what with only a few billion dollars a quarter in profits. How are they going to survive?


When you run a $100 Billion business, pay billions in taxes already, have the stranglehold put on your exploration and upgrading of your business by the Gov't, a few billion profit ain't much, 8%. That is the shareholders' money, not some poker buddies sitting around the table playing million dollar hands. Alot less than Coke's profit margin, 21%. Why not drag them into Senate hearings?? :confused: Why? Can't demagogue that.

Face it, the world runs on oil. Drilling our own oil won't sustain us for long? How long is that? Are you a geologist? Clairvoyent? Longer than not drilling I'll bet. Maybe we'll be driving windmills some day, but it ain't gonna happen anytime soon. When your "new" technologies become practicle, maybe someone will invest in them. Until then we need all that black gold we can squeeze out of the ground.

[classical]

It's always those damn liberals who are the problem huh. Even if we drill here, the amount of oil we would extract wouldn't be enough to sustain us for long. I'm not against drilling here, it would be a quick fix, but that's the problem, it would be just a quick fix. We need long term solutions, and oil isn't one of them. We need new sources of energy. A lot of the technology is there, we're just to addicted to oil too much to invest in them.

Just how do you figure drilling for oil in our hemisphere and building more refineries is a quick fix. It takes at least a decade to bring in a new field from exploration to full production levels and around that long to build new refineries and bring them online. It will take most of a decade to build new Nuclear power plants.

Converting to alternative fuels is even farther away and much more expensive. Even if Hydrogen production was cheap (which it is not) a distribution system would need to be developed and funded.

The problem is bureaucrats and ill educated liberals (Hollywood) think quick feel good fixes are the answer. That is why we are driving ourselves to bankruptcy and food shortages. Ignorant ideas like Ethanol benefit not the masses but ADM and other farmers. It cost each of us every day in rising food and transportation cost.

[bootlen]

Yeah, those poor oil companies are having a rough go of it, what with only a few billion dollars a quarter in profits. How are they going to survive?

Facetiousness does not become you. I already said the oil companies are making a good profit. But they are required to do so in order to retain their corporate charter. To not do so would violate their contract with stockholders like your next door neighbor and your uncle.

Making a profit is the American way. (It's called a free enterprise system.) If you don't think so, quit being a hypocrite...cut your prices for work or your wage in half.

[whec720]

I love this "alternative energy sources" drum the libs keep pounding. I'd like someone to explain to me, in detail, what these sources are. It's almost is cheesy as Obama's "change".

[bootlen]

It's always those damn liberals who are the problem huh. Even if we drill here, the amount of oil we would extract wouldn't be enough to sustain us for long. I'm not against drilling here, it would be a quick fix, but that's the problem, it would be just a quick fix. We need long term solutions, and oil isn't one of them. We need new sources of energy. A lot of the technology is there, we're just to addicted to oil too much to invest in them.

There is no question we need to revamp our energy policy. But if you will check, you will see that every single venture into alternative fuels has been poo-pooed except the one that yields no gain...ethanol. And the lib fingerprint has been all over the poo-poo.

[bigtime]

There is no question we need to revamp our energy policy. But if you will check, you will see that every single venture into alternative fuels has been poo-pooed except the one that yields no gain...ethanol. And the lib fingerprint has been all over the poo-poo.

Please list the alternative fuels with any real "horsepower" that have been poo-pooed by anyone, liberal or conservative.

[bootlen]

How about just one? Nuclear.

[bootlen]

Oh, ya want another? Coal.

[bootlen]

Still another? Wind.

[bootlen]

Ya want another? Tides.

[bigtime]

Coal and nuclear are not alternative. Wind and tides have not real hp.

Maybe if we put windmills up everywhere and whatever you do to for tides, how many megawatts do we get? Not many as a percentage.

The power companies will start building nuclear plants when the payoff justifies the investment, regardless of the "libs" position.

[bootlen]

Coal and nuclear are not alternative.

Thank you for proving my point. (Ask the French if nuclear is an alternative.)

Wind and tides have not real hp.

Let me guess...you live in Kansas or Nebraska and have never been in a salt water body.

Maybe if we put windmills up everywhere and whatever you do to for tides, how many megawatts do we get? Not many as a percentage.

Tell us then. How many megawatts Do we get? "Not many" is pretty nefarious.

The power companies will start building nuclear plants when the payoff justifies the investment, regardless of the "libs" position.

And it is lib-driven regulations that keep the investment outside of profitability.

[pabull]

There is no question we need to revamp our energy policy. But if you will check, you will see that every single venture into alternative fuels has been poo-pooed except the one that yields no gain...ethanol. And the lib fingerprint has been all over the poo-poo.
Maybe 311's KOOL-AID has been spiked with Ethanol.:D

[Carnak]

Coal and nuclear are not alternative.

Thank you for proving my point. (Ask the French if nuclear is an alternative.)

Wind and tides have not real hp.

Let me guess...you live in Kansas or Nebraska and have never been in a salt water body.

Maybe if we put windmills up everywhere and whatever you do to for tides, how many megawatts do we get? Not many as a percentage.

Tell us then. How many megawatts Do we get? "Not many" is pretty nefarious.

The power companies will start building nuclear plants when the payoff justifies the investment, regardless of the "libs" position.

And it is lib-driven regulations that keep the investment outside of profitability.

You have to start by not living in big houses

Probably when baby boomers were being hatched the average home was 900 sqaure feet plus a basement-- probably 2 to 3 bedrooms with one bathroom.

Now Yuppies want a 3000 square foot estate in the suburbs for them and their 2.1 kids.

I got by for a month or so on 12.5A of 240V single phase power after a hurricane.

You could probably put in photovoltaics to give you 20A of power for less than what a new SUV will cost. People will spend big bucks on vehicles that depereciate substantially as soon as you drive it off the lot and at the same time would balk if something took more than a few years to pay for itself in energy savings. Never hard to sell a European something that was more energy efficient and more expensive, but always a tough sell to North Americans, in particular those south of the 49th and north of the Rio Grande. They are just too used to having the cheapest energy in the western world.

If you lived in smaller homes, you could get by in the summer on that much power and the grid power is for your spikes. This does not cover space heating, but it gets your annual demand down considerably and this is something that can be done now.

I think the freeway culture is coming to an end. Time to invest in mass transit

[everythingair]

this does not seem to be following supply and demand

this is like monopoly, collusion, price fixing

While I must absolutely agree that the oil companies are taking us for a major financial ride, it is also quite interesting that the over the top environmentalists who keep domestic drilling an environmental taboo are actually helping the oil companies to be able to be so powerful.

We really must do something about the massive amount of power that the oil barons worldwide, whether they be Middle Eastern and Asian Muslims, Canadians or Americans with big hats, something needs to be done about the immense amount of power all of these people have. If we could just get the environmentalists to stop giving these oil magnates such noble reasons for keeping the oil costs high, it would be at least one obstacle out of the way to lower prices.

[Carnak]

While I must absolutely agree that the oil companies are taking us for a major financial ride, it is also quite interesting that the over the top environmentalists who keep domestic drilling an environmental taboo are actually helping the oil companies to be able to be so powerful.


It reminds me of illegal immigrants in a way.

One party gets accused of not wanting to do anything about illegal immigration as it will lead to potential voters for their cause. The other party gets accused of not wanting to do anything about it because business needs the cheap labour.

Big oil is in no hurry to drill, they can sell it now or sell it later.

[tonys]

seems like a simple solution.

a) use less energy
and/or
b) get a better job, ya'loser.

[everythingair]

It reminds me of illegal immigrants in a way.

One party gets accused of not wanting to do anything about illegal immigration as it will lead to potential voters for their cause. The other party gets accused of not wanting to do anything about it because business needs the cheap labour.

Big oil is in no hurry to drill, they can sell it now or sell it later.

Very true. It would be most interesting to "really" know what the potential oil supply within the earth truly is. For decades we have been being scared into believing that the Earth is running out of oil. With recent tactics in raising oil prices it seems that the oil barons are taking lessons from the diamond industry by deliberately keeping the supply of oil below the demand in order to keep prices high.

[everythingair]

seems like a simple solution.

a) use less energy
and/or
b) get a better job, ya'loser.

There is no doubt that way too many people of way too many nations are using way too much energy. Waste is waste, no matter how it is administered. We all should be ashamed of ourselves for not at least attempting daily to reduce our waste of energy.

[Carnak]

Very true. It would be most interesting to "really" know what the potential oil supply within the earth truly is. For decades we have been being scared into believing that the Earth is running out of oil.

I was 13 during the yom kippur war. I thought the world would be out of oil before I was old enough to have my own car :)

[everythingair]

I was 13 during the yom kippur war. I thought the world would be out of oil before I was old enough to have my own car :)

I am a bit older and have just become weary of having any faith that anyone involved in the oil industry is going to be truthful about the state of the Earth's oil. While I support the United States in it's efforts to stave off radical Islamic momentum, I am not so naive to not believe that there are most likely many oil deals going on between entities that the common man or woman could just not comprehend how such people could ever do business with one another. Oil may not be the reason for current war issues, but current war issues are certainly benefiting those involved with oil.

[classical]

Well I was 19 during the Yom Kippur war and girls were on my mind not the price of oil or its future.

Carnak what makes you think oil companies are not drilling for new oil? Every exploration company is constantly exploring and developing new fields and constantly assessing and working over old fields. Just normal maintenance is unbelievably expensive.

Major companies like Exxon/Mobil Chevron and BP are not necessarily in the drilling exploration and pumping of oil. They are primarily distribution the drilling and exploration is done mostly by companies like Anadarko, Devon and smaller companies like Apache. I am pretty sure Shell is big in exploration and field development as are others of the big well known companies but not all.
As I stated before, considerable expenditures are being put forth for new exploration in deep sea fields in the Gulf, wells in several thousands of feet of water and the oil is several miles deeper than the sea bed. The technology to exploit these wells took decades to develop.

The development of the underwater pipelines to service these new fields is enormously expensive on top of the 10's of Billons expended to develop the wells to full production. The first of these fields are just coming online and the pipelines are just now coming online. These fields are expected to produce quantities sufficient to maintain current levels as older fields play out completely.


I agree also that politically both sides are working against each other to the same end and that is to stay in their cushy jobs. However it is the lib’s that are keeping us from drilling in offshore areas with proven reserves, like Florida and California. They kept us from building more nuclear plants and now they want us to stop building coal fired plants. Coal is this countries most plentiful fuel for producing electricity and we have enough for more than a Century but liberals are up in arms about how bad it is.

In Texas we have built more than 40 coal plants in the last decade plus and for that reason the grid as additional power to feed all of these oversized homes all the nit wits are buying. As Carnak said the size of new homes is outrageous and the power they consume is alarming. I was at a house yeaterday has four systems just over 5000 sq.ft. and it was small compared to the homes going up around it. Guess what the HVAC going in is the cheapest possible and will cost a fortune to heat and cool.

The suggestion that we all doing something to conserve everyday is good and I believe we as A/C techs and owners are on the front lines of selling energy efficiency to the average home and business owners.

[Carnak]

http://www.conocophillips.com/Tech/upstream/find/index.htm

[gary_g]

There is no doubt that way too many people of way too many nations are using way too much energy. Waste is waste, no matter how it is administered. We all should be ashamed of ourselves for not at least attempting daily to reduce our waste of energy.

I have tried to make my contributions:

- I have always had cars that got good gas mileage. Just bought a new car, Pontiac Vibe, that gets 35 mpg (that makes both cars in the family with 35 mpg). I run my cars into the ground.
- House is only 1700 square foot. Reasonable costs to heat and cool.
- Replaced a fully functional 21 year-old 7 SEER Trane heat pump with a new 14 SEER/12 EER/9 HSPF heat pump. With Maryland electric rates climbing 72% thanks to de-regulation without competition, payback is only 4 years.

I would gladly put a solar panel on my roof if the government (Federal or State) provided a decent rebate or other incentive.

This was a great thread.

[air311]

Maybe 311's KOOL-AID has been spiked with Ethanol.:D

Wow, another zipper. Do you ever have anything to add that even slightly resembles a point? I think my 4th grade comment on one of the other threads is true.

[whec720]

Here's a decent article on oil exploration in the Gulf of Mexico. Proof that the energy industry works hard, just like us in HVAC. There is simply no substitute ingenuity and hard work.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/08/business/worldbusiness/08gulf.html?ex=1320642000&en=5009f767ae1819ea&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

[Carnak]

It can be even more expensive to drill in the Arctic, those dam enviro libs made it too cold up there :)

[bootlen]

It can be even more expensive to drill in the Arctic, those dam enviro libs made it too cold up there :)

Actually, they don't. They just THINK man is capable of doing that.

[Carnak]

lol, more like You just think :)

[bigtime]

Coal and nuclear are not alternative.

Thank you for proving my point. (Ask the French if nuclear is an alternative.)

Wind and tides have not real hp.

Let me guess...you live in Kansas or Nebraska and have never been in a salt water body.

Maybe if we put windmills up everywhere and whatever you do to for tides, how many megawatts do we get? Not many as a percentage.

Tell us then. How many megawatts Do we get? "Not many" is pretty nefarious.

The power companies will start building nuclear plants when the payoff justifies the investment, regardless of the "libs" position.

And it is lib-driven regulations that keep the investment outside of profitability.

I am not sure what your point was, and am not sure how I proved it. You said the "libs" were poopooing any alternative fuel ideas. Alternative fuels to me are fuels we are not already using...nuclear, coal, and petro. What did you mean by alternative fuels?

I thought you had some new promising fuel ideas that were being squashed by the "libs". I was hoping you could tell me how may megawatts were being held hostage by the "libs".

[bootlen]

I am not sure what your point was, and am not sure how I proved it. You said the "libs" were poopooing any alternative fuel ideas. Alternative fuels to me are fuels we are not already using...nuclear, coal, and petro. What did you mean by alternative fuels?

I thought you had some new promising fuel ideas that were being squashed by the "libs". I was hoping you could tell me how may megawatts were being held hostage by the "libs".

How many nuke power stations are in Europe? How many are in the U.S.? France has it handsdown over the U.S. in nuclear energy.

"Alternative" to petro. Isn't that what the thread is about? Or do you need the definition of "is"?

And I'm not one to repeat myself unless you didn't hear me. You want all caps?

[bigtime]

How many nuke power stations are in Europe? How many are in the U.S.? France has it handsdown over the U.S. in nuclear energy.

"Alternative" to petro. Isn't that what the thread is about? Or do you need the definition of "is"?

And I'm not one to repeat myself unless you didn't hear me. You want all caps?

France also has no coal. Are you saying we should be more like the French?

[classical]

I was hoping you could tell me how may megawatts were being held hostage by the "libs".

Let's go with Teddy Kennedy not wanting a wind farm built in his bay because it would affect his view and sailing.

How about liberals not wanting anymore coal fired generation plants built.

Just these two represent tremendous potential Kilowatts.

As Boots said they stopped dead construction of any new nuclear facilites and the closure of others.

Those are all alternatives to petro based electrical generation, all while pushing an agenda (ethanol) that will produce food shortages worldwide and drive of fuel prices overall.

[bigtime]

I was hoping you could tell me how may megawatts were being held hostage by the "libs".

Let's go with Teddy Kennedy not wanting a wind farm built in his bay because it would affect his view and sailing.

How about liberals not wanting anymore coal fired generation plants built.

Just these two represent tremendous potential Kilowatts.

As Boots said they stopped dead construction of any new nuclear facilites and the closure of others.

Those are all alternatives to petro based electrical generation, all while pushing an agenda (ethanol) that will produce food shortages worldwide and drive of fuel prices overall.

First, I am all for wind farms and that sort of stuff, but its peeing in the ocean. No real megawatts.

Second, Im pretty conservative, and I dont think we should build more coal fired plants. Lib or conservative, that smoke aint good for the air.

Thirdly, Nuclear is the way to go. Nuclear plants will be built when the demand for electricity exceeds the present supply.

[classical]

Todays coal fired plants are very clean, i fish on the cooling lakes all of the time and they produce virtually no smoke; that is not the only reason I think they are clean.

Wind power is not the total answer but in certain area's west Texas and the CA mountains they generate considerable power. I watch the blades leave here all the time so they are erecting farms all of the time. In fact just the other day they announced a new production facility here.

I agree that nuclear is the future at least a part of it; however until we overcome the liberal agenda/mindset and find a location to store the waste hey will not be built. We need them now not in ten or fifteen years, but as long as there are Gores, Dicapprios and their ilk we will not get them.

[bigtime]

Todays coal fired plants are very clean, i fish on the cooling lakes all of the time and they produce virtually no smoke; that is not the only reason I think they are clean.

Wind power is not the total answer but in certain area's west Texas and the CA mountains they generate considerable power. I watch the blades leave here all the time so they are erecting farms all of the time. In fact just the other day they announced a new production facility here.

I agree that nuclear is the future at least a part of it; however until we overcome the liberal agenda/mindset and find a location to store the waste hey will not be built. We need them now not in ten or fifteen years, but as long as there are Gores, Dicapprios and their ilk we will not get them.

Classical, I think we would be in agreement on a lot of things.

One thing we would not agree on... Power cos are not building nuclear plants because they dont make economical sense, not because gores and dicaps are agin them.

They were building a nuc plant close to me in the 80's. They spent a ton of dough and then sudenley stopped all construction. Wasnt becasuse of anything other than it was cheaper to stop than, spend the money to build a widget factory when widget demad was low.

[bigtime]

Todays coal fired plants are very clean, i fish on the cooling lakes all of the time and they produce virtually no smoke; that is not the only reason I think they are clean.

Wind power is not the total answer but in certain area's west Texas and the CA mountains they generate considerable power. I watch the blades leave here all the time so they are erecting farms all of the time. In fact just the other day they announced a new production facility here.

I agree that nuclear is the future at least a part of it; however until we overcome the liberal agenda/mindset and find a location to store the waste hey will not be built. We need them now not in ten or fifteen years, but as long as there are Gores, Dicapprios and their ilk we will not get them.

Why do you think todays coal plants are clean? Let me help you, it aint because the power cos thought is was the right thing to do. Thank a lib.:D

[air311]

Classical, I think we would be in agreement on a lot of things.

One thing we would not agree on... Power cos are not building nuclear plants because they dont make economical sense, not because gores and dicaps are agin them.

They were building a nuc plant close to me in the 80's. They spent a ton of dough and then sudenley stopped all construction. Wasnt becasuse of anything other than it was cheaper to stop than, spend the money to build a widget factory when widget demad was low.

Exactly. I can only imagine what a modern nuclear power plant would cost to build. Nuclear is not "free" energy. A few plants in places where it makes sense is fine, but I don't think anyone wants them popping up everywhere. Different parts of the country can be dependent on different kinds of energy sources. The whole country doesn't need to be fueled by the same source. But once again, money is the root of the problem, everyone wants to get rich off of their plan, screw anyone else's plan.

[everythingair]

Exactly. I can only imagine what a modern nuclear power plant would cost to build. Nuclear is not "free" energy. A few plants in places where it makes sense is fine, but I don't think anyone wants them popping up everywhere. Different parts of the country can be dependent on different kinds of energy sources. The whole country doesn't need to be fueled by the same source. But once again, money is the root of the problem, everyone wants to get rich off of their plan, screw anyone else's plan.

There is no such thing as free energy. Whether we pay for an energy producing product itself or pay for machinery to capture energy from the sun, wind, water or whatever, there is a cost for energy. At this time, the cost of so called "free" energy from wind and sun are actually more costly then fossil fuel and water generated energy is very impacting on the environment.

[air311]

There is no such thing as free energy. Whether we pay for an energy producing product itself or pay for machinery to capture energy from the sun, wind, water or whatever, there is a cost for energy. At this time, the cost of so called "free" energy from wind and sun are actually more costly then fossil fuel and water generated energy is very impacting on the environment.

Yeah, and?

[everythingair]

Yeah, and?

Well, since you don't seem to be very comprehensive with understanding the thoughts of others (not that your own thoughts are comprehendable), I suppose you wouldn't understand that the point is that nuclear power just may be the least expensive alternative to fossil fuels in order to produce a viable amount of energy per dollar spent with the least amount of impact to the environment.

[Carnak]

First, I am all for wind farms and that sort of stuff, but its peeing in the ocean. No real megawatts.

Second, Im pretty conservative, and I dont think we should build more coal fired plants. Lib or conservative, that smoke aint good for the air.

Thirdly, Nuclear is the way to go. Nuclear plants will be built when the demand for electricity exceeds the present supply.

I do not see windmills as econmomy of scale

I see it as something that a rural home could do to reduce demand, or something small communities could do for say 10 to 20% of their power.

A small island down this way only has about a 3.3 MW demand presently, they are looking at a windmill scheme to give them about 30% of their power.

[classical]

A little information on alternative power generation in Texas.

http://www.infinitepower.org/projects.htm

Article on Coal plants; you know it is interesting that they people that are against coal are the same people that blasted them for acid rain in the 80's. Turns out that acid rain came more from dairy cow herds not so much coal plants.

http://66.113.204.26/commentary/clean-coal.htm

Interesting article on Geothermal and using old Gas and Oil wells to produce Geothermal.

http://www.seco.cpa.state.tx.us/re_geothermal.htm

[air311]

Well, since you don't seem to be very comprehensive with understanding the thoughts of others (not that your own thoughts are comprehendable), I suppose you wouldn't understand that the point is that nuclear power just may be the least expensive alternative to fossil fuels in order to produce a viable amount of energy per dollar spent with the least amount of impact to the environment.

I never said nuclear cost anymore than any other kind of energy. I was just making a general statement in response to the people who claim nuclear power is "free" or cheap. I'm not against nuclear power, though I don't think we need nuclear plants everywhere. So what wasn't I comprehending? I wasn't really disagreeing with anyone on this.

[everythingair]

A little information on alternative power generation in Texas.

http://www.infinitepower.org/projects.htm

Article on Coal plants; you know it is interesting that they people that are against coal are the same people that blasted them for acid rain in the 80's. Turns out that acid rain came more from dairy cow herds not so much coal plants.

http://66.113.204.26/commentary/clean-coal.htm

Interesting article on Geothermal and using old Gas and Oil wells to produce Geothermal.

http://www.seco.cpa.state.tx.us/re_geothermal.htm

It is a shame that coal has gotten such a bad reputation in the U.S. There is more coal in North America, mostly in the United States, then anywhere else in the world. The U.S. is basically to coal what Saudi Arabia is to oil. The problem is that coal has become a sore subject because of the environmental damages that mining creates and the safety factor of mining, both of which can be overcome and for the most part have been overcome.

[royc]

Nuclear is the most costly way of getting energy if you look at it the long term. We have the talent and know how to make this country energy independent, but we dont have the political will, cause our political system is awash with oil money.

Take a look at this............

http://www.valcent.net/i/misc/Vertigro/index.html


Roy

[everythingair]

Nuclear is the most costly way of getting energy if you look at it the long term. We have the talent and know how to make this country energy independent, but we dont have the political will, cause our political system is awash with oil money.

Take a look at this............

http://www.valcent.net/i/misc/Vertigro/index.html


Roy

Hmmm, tofu, yogurt and carrot juice for lunch?

[Space Racer]

You have to start by not living in big houses

Probably when baby boomers were being hatched the average home was 900 sqaure feet plus a basement-- probably 2 to 3 bedrooms with one bathroom.

Now Yuppies want a 3000 square foot estate in the suburbs for them and their 2.1 kids.

I got by for a month or so on 12.5A of 240V single phase power after a hurricane.

You could probably put in photovoltaics to give you 20A of power for less than what a new SUV will cost. People will spend big bucks on vehicles that depereciate substantially as soon as you drive it off the lot and at the same time would balk if something took more than a few years to pay for itself in energy savings. Never hard to sell a European something that was more energy efficient and more expensive, but always a tough sell to North Americans, in particular those south of the 49th and north of the Rio Grande. They are just too used to having the cheapest energy in the western world.

If you lived in smaller homes, you could get by in the summer on that much power and the grid power is for your spikes. This does not cover space heating, but it gets your annual demand down considerably and this is something that can be done now.

I think the freeway culture is coming to an end. Time to invest in mass transit

Amen!

My total average utility bill, including phone, comes to less than $200
a month.

I am amazed by customers who spend $1500 to $5000 a month
on utilities.

Why do they do it? And why do they complain about gas prices?

Why do they wonder that they can't afford to pay the mortgage?

Why do they wonder where their money goes?

Why do they blame other people for their problems?

I wish I knew.

[Slatts]

Amen!

My total average utility bill, including phone, comes to less than $200
a month.

I am amazed by customers who spend $1500 to $5000 a month
on utilities.

Why do they do it? And why do they complain about gas prices?

Why do they wonder that they can't afford to pay the mortgage?

Why do they wonder where their money goes?

Why do they blame other people for their problems?

I wish I knew.
Space. Mate. never underestimate the stupidity of the common man.:(

He will always vote for parties and beer even as the world disintegrates around him. He will then run around like a chook with its' head chopped off looking for some one to blame for the mess.

[everythingair]

Space. Mate. never underestimate the stupidity of the common man.:(

He will always vote for parties and beer even as the world disintegrates around him. He will then run around like a chook with its' head chopped off looking for some one to blame for the mess.

I think we have a winner here. It could just be as was pointed out in The Matrix that man is more like a virus that continues to grow until we just wipe our host, the Earth.

So what causes most of our innability to just say no to being stupid? We are competitive by nature, so we naturally feel the need to keep up with the Jones's. Add to this the multitudes of advertizing geared to fuel our natural desires to be better then the next guy, and it doesn't take long for us to be right where we are. Just as there are basics to loosing weight that so many overweight people ignore (consume less calories, burn more calories) we also ignore the basics of keeping our lives from being so complicated and self destructive. Maybe those Amish people have a better way of living.

[Carnak]

Maybe those Amish people have a better way of living.

Natural disasters can make you instantly amish, and you quickly learn what you take for granted, and what you really need to get by on.

[whec720]

Okay...we established the fact that mankind is crazy and at times, very stupid. However, here in the northeast, it is above 90 degrees and anyone who has it, is running their a/c.
The Amish, on the other hand, are not. Now which one do you prefer? Do we turn back the hands of time to solve the problems of our energy needs? Sounds like a cop out to me. Why not put worth the effort to create more energy capacity. Its not like the world human population is decreasing. More people = more energy usage.
Simple enough?;)

[Space Racer]

Okay...we established the fact that mankind is crazy and at times, very stupid. However, here in the northeast, it is above 90 degrees and anyone who has it, is running their a/c.
The Amish, on the other hand, are not. Now which one do you prefer? Do we turn back the hands of time to solve the problems of our energy needs? Sounds like a cop out to me. Why not put worth the effort to create more energy capacity. Its not like the world human population is decreasing. More people = more energy usage.
Simple enough?;)

I live in Atlanta. My AC has been running since April. Like I said, less than
$200 a month for all utilities. This includes phone, DSL, water, sewer, storm
water, garbage pickup, recycling, gas, electric.

Cable? What's that?

How do I do it? I live in a small house on a wooded lot. I have insulated
windows. I have a 12 SEER system. I have an energy-efficient refrigerator.
I live in a city that buys gas and electricity and bills its residents.
I turn off the lights when not in use.
If it's yellow, I let it mellow.
I use a setback T-stat. I set it to come down to 80 at 5:00, and
when I get home I bump it down to 78 and take my shirt off.
(I keep my T-shirt on.) In the winter, I wear a sweatshirt.
I use a spaceguard filter.
That's about it.

Insulation? Please. Four inches in the attic and some bare spots.

I really oughta do something about that.

[Slatts]

I think we have a winner here. It could just be as was pointed out in The Matrix that man is more like a virus that continues to grow until we just wipe our host, the Earth.

So what causes most of our innability to just say no to being stupid? We are competitive by nature, so we naturally feel the need to keep up with the Jones's. Add to this the multitudes of advertizing geared to fuel our natural desires to be better then the next guy, and it doesn't take long for us to be right where we are. Just as there are basics to loosing weight that so many overweight people ignore (consume less calories, burn more calories) we also ignore the basics of keeping our lives from being so complicated and self destructive. Maybe those Amish people have a better way of living.

I blame it on medical science. We're keeping stupid people alive long enough for them to breed more stupid people. Goes against nature.
Also on the major wars of the 20th century killing off a large proportion of our best breeding stock and causing lots of famillies to raise children without a father.

[Space Racer]

The feds don't need to decide what sources of energy to use.
If anything, they should reward state governments for encouraging
wise energy use.

Got coal? Use it. Why import oil or electricity?
Is coal dirty? Not if you clean it.
Is it expensive? Not like it used to be.

Got wind? Put up some windmills.
Again, why import when you have your
own resources at hand?

Got ocean? Put in some tide-powered underwater
water mills (kinda like windmills). Are they
expensive? If they are, just put in a few and
learn how to make them better. Prepare for
the future.

Got sun? Put in some reflective solar powered
electricity plants.

Got offshore oil? Drill for it.
Got oil shale? Check it out.

Why doesn't the government do things that make
sense? What government? Are you kidding?

What about your state and local governments?
Can your voice be heard there?

What are you going to do, suck your thumb for the
rest of your life?

Years ago, the fed govt could have and should have
set a price for oil above the price it was selling for.
It could have collected taxes on oil and gas and
plowed the money back into the American economy,
by lowering income taxes or rewarding state govts,
or other similar means.

Instead, we send the money to the Arabs.

We could have kept it to ourselves and re-established our
independence.

Now oil is approaching $150 a barrel, and we have no
plan.

One of the best plans I have heard is to farm hay,
so that we can feed the horses that will pull our cars
down the highway.

Got hay?

[Carnak]

Okay...we established the fact that mankind is crazy and at times, very stupid. However, here in the northeast, it is above 90 degrees and anyone who has it, is running their a/c.
The Amish, on the other hand, are not. Now which one do you prefer? Do we turn back the hands of time to solve the problems of our energy needs? Sounds like a cop out to me. Why not put worth the effort to create more energy capacity. Its not like the world human population is decreasing. More people = more energy usage.
Simple enough?;)

part of the solution is to reduce how much energy each person uses, that is not a cop out, that is where you start, the solutions begin with us.

Homes are getting bigger and bigger. Bigger the house the bigger the utility bills.

[DocHVAC]

Some Wall Str. speculator said today that oil will reach $200 a barrel by July 1st so oil went up $10 today.

[whec720]

part of the solution is to reduce how much energy each person uses, that is not a cop out, that is where you start, the solutions begin with us.

Homes are getting bigger and bigger. Bigger the house the bigger the utility bills.

You're painting with a broad brush. Not everybody lives that way. My wife and I, along with our two daughters, live in a 1200 sq ft home. We also make decent livings. She's an RN and I work in commercial. We're not rich, but we ain't poor either.
Wouldn't you agree, that there is more people than thirty years ago? How about even ten? More people, more energy needs. Lets increase energy capacity. Anything less, is a cop out.

[meoberry]

royc is right we have not built a nuclear power plant since three mile island. which was caused by faulty sensors in the first place. there are plenty of places that these plants could be built. that are very remote. but the government in there ultimate wisdom will listen to the liberal tree huggers that some how seem to be all very wealthy (how does that happen).while the rest of the world is passing us by in nuclear energy production and yes you guessed it manufacturing. all our manufacturing is being done down in mexico. if you don't believe it look at where the parts are being made that is on your service trucks. actually some are from china coming up through mexico.

[meoberry]

I believe that all the excess heat about this global warming thing is being caused by. we know that heat is energy. enegy must be absorbed and stored or converted to some other type of energy. so lets say that the average home is 1500 square foot. wouldn't that mean that there is 1500 square foot of dirt that can no longer absorb heat. the heat has to go somewhere. so how many new homes have been built in say the last 50 years. i could be wrong. but i say we are roasting ourselfs.

[Carnak]

You're painting with a broad brush. Not everybody lives that way. My wife and I, along with our two daughters, live in a 1200 sq ft home. We also make decent livings. She's an RN and I work in commercial. We're not rich, but we ain't poor either.
Wouldn't you agree, that there is more people than thirty years ago? How about even ten? More people, more energy needs. Lets increase energy capacity. Anything less, is a cop out.

You are personifying the problem whec


Its like "Why change, lets just go find more fuel"

[whec720]

You are personifying the problem whec


Its like "Why change, lets just go find more fuel"

Wow...you must hold me to some high regard. Do I control the world population?:eek: How about their energy habits?
It is what it is, Carnak. No amount of social engineering is going to get us out of this. People desire energy. More people, more energy needed, that is all I'm saying.

[Slatts]

Wow...you must hold me to some high regard. Do I control the world population?:eek: How about their energy habits?
It is what it is, Carnak. No amount of social engineering is going to get us out of this. People desire energy. More people, more energy needed, that is all I'm saying.

people desire that flash car the bloke next door drives or the 59 inch flat screen TV in the shop window or that sexy blond down the street.
Most of us control those desires and only take what we can afford to pay for. Those that just help themselves are seen as criminals.

Now it's time to pay for our energy gluttony

[Slatts]

I believe that all the excess heat about this global warming thing is being caused by. we know that heat is energy. enegy must be absorbed and stored or converted to some other type of energy. so lets say that the average home is 1500 square foot. wouldn't that mean that there is 1500 square foot of dirt that can no longer absorb heat. the heat has to go somewhere. so how many new homes have been built in say the last 50 years. i could be wrong. but i say we are roasting ourselfs.

gedday meo. In Australia when we think someone is pulling our leg or winding us up we say they're "pi$$ing in our pocket".
Having read your thread, my pocket is feeling decidedly damp.

[Carnak]

Wow...you must hold me to some high regard. Do I control the world population?:eek: How about their energy habits?
It is what it is, Carnak. No amount of social engineering is going to get us out of this. People desire energy. More people, more energy needed, that is all I'm saying.

No one is arguing that the population of the world is growing. But what really scales it up is places like India and China are now getting their own cars and not riding bicycles and donkeys. Had huge populations over there not using a lot of energy in the past and now they are starting to use some, still less per capita than what North Americans use.

So I am not social engineering, I am just saying your attitude of 'why should we change and reduce our demand when we should just go out and find more oil' is selfish to say the least.

More people more energy yes, but it is really time to reduce how much fossil fuel energy each person uses.

If you legislate these changes, I guess it is a loss of freedom or socialism. So just let the oil companies get richer and take the free market approach. See what happens when diesel is $10 a gallon next year :)

We all go on strike get bigger wages, create more money from nothing to pay for it all or do we reduce, fork out some cash for energy savings devices, maybe some photovoltaics, maybe we do not need the AC set down to 72F, maybe we insulate some more. The first steps are there for the average Joe to do now.

[whec720]

No one is arguing that the population of the world is growing. But what really scales it up is places like India and China are now getting their own cars and not riding bicycles and donkeys. Had huge populations over there not using a lot of energy in the past and now they are starting to use some, still less per capita than what North Americans use.

So I am not social engineering, I am just saying your attitude of 'why should we change and reduce our demand when we should just go out and find more oil' is selfish to say the least.

More people more energy yes, but it is really time to reduce how much fossil fuel energy each person uses.

If you legislate these changes, I guess it is a loss of freedom or socialism. So just let the oil companies get richer and take the free market approach. See what happens when diesel is $10 a gallon next year :)

We all go on strike get bigger wages, create more money from nothing to pay for it all or do we reduce, fork out some cash for energy savings devices, maybe some photovoltaics, maybe we do not need the AC set down to 72F, maybe we insulate some more. The first steps are there for the average Joe to do now.

We're more on the same page than you think. I never said we should just use more energy or the same present amount. I agree, take steps to reduce personal energy use. Hell, that is a win, win for us in the HVAC business.
However, that is not going to be enough. What I am saying is, we need to produce more of our energy capacity, here in North America. This is a simple fact. Look at your population growth for the US and Canada, IT AIN'T GOING DOWN. You see, both come into to play.
Carnak, you come off stubborn on this one.

[whec720]

people desire that flash car the bloke next door drives or the 59 inch flat screen TV in the shop window or that sexy blond down the street.
Most of us control those desires and only take what we can afford to pay for. Those that just help themselves are seen as criminals.

Now it's time to pay for our energy gluttony

And we are...:confused:
The markets will decide what we pay. The government, ie social engineering, will only screw it up more. If you want to use more energy, be willing to pay for it. Kinda like that hot blond chickie down the street.:D

[Slatts]

And we are...:confused:
The markets will decide what we pay. The government, ie social engineering, will only screw it up more. If you want to use more energy, be willing to pay for it. Kinda like that hot blond chickie down the street.:D
Yeh, she doesn't come cheap:)
My proposition is that it's not just us who have to pay for our consumption. Future generations are going to have to keep paying for what we waste now once we arrive at peak oil production (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_oil).
Of course, if you can't beat them, you could always join them (http://www.sovereignsociety.com/offshore2601.html?gclid=CKXa08Sh45MCFSQqagodSD-UVQ)...
We have Islands in the Pacific disappearing under the water (http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/05/03/asia/pacific.php). We have glaciers in Nepal melting (http://www.unep.org/Documents.Multilingual/Default.asp?DocumentID=512&ArticleID=5600&l=en)causing flooding and deaths. And if the Gulf stream stops flowing (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article598464.ece) as is predicted by oceanographers (http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?cid=9986&pid=12455&tid=282), the Northern hemisphere is in for a mini ice age in very short order. Doesn't paint a pretty picture does it?
She canna take much more captain. (corny Scottish accent)

All sentiments that don't go over well in ARP, I know.

And we're spending our natural resources like a drunken sailor.
But as Ned Kelly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ned_Kelly) said just before they hanged him, "such is life".

This all presupposes that some deity or other doesn't decide to declare Armageddon first and end all our problems. I suspect that that's a popular if unstated belief in these threads.

[whec720]

Yeh, she doesn't come cheap:)
My proposition is that it's not just us who have to pay for our consumption. Future generations are going to have to keep paying for what we waste now once we arrive at peak oil production (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_oil).
Of course, if you can't beat them, you could always join them (http://www.sovereignsociety.com/offshore2601.html?gclid=CKXa08Sh45MCFSQqagodSD-UVQ)...
We have Islands in the Pacific disappearing under the water (http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/05/03/asia/pacific.php). We have glaciers in Nepal melting (http://www.unep.org/Documents.Multilingual/Default.asp?DocumentID=512&ArticleID=5600&l=en)causing flooding and deaths. And if the Gulf stream stops flowing (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article598464.ece) as is predicted by oceanographers (http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?cid=9986&pid=12455&tid=282), the Northern hemisphere is in for a mini ice age in very short order. Doesn't paint a pretty picture does it?
She canna take much more captain. (corny Scottish accent)

All sentiments that don't go over well in ARP, I know.

And we're spending our natural resources like a drunken sailor.
But as Ned Kelly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ned_Kelly) said just before they hanged him, "such is life".

This all presupposes that some deity or other doesn't decide to declare Armageddon first and end all our problems. I suspect that that's a popular if unstated belief in these threads.

Obviously you buy into the "mankind is the boogie man" stuff...:rolleyes:
To each is own, not going to go in to that.:cool:

Look, for as long as man has been on this earth, he has used its resources. Yet, it is nature that conquers us at every turn. I don't buy the pompass notion, that we are such great powerful beings. I think our egos are much larger than our impact on global climate change. We do play a part, but by how much? That seems to be a subject of great debate as of late.

[Carnak]

We're more on the same page than you think. I never said we should just use more energy or the same present amount. I agree, take steps to reduce personal energy use. Hell, that is a win, win for us in the HVAC business.
However, that is not going to be enough. What I am saying is, we need to produce more of our energy capacity, here in North America. This is a simple fact. Look at your population growth for the US and Canada, IT AIN'T GOING DOWN. You see, both come into to play.
Carnak, you come off stubborn on this one.

It is going to be a lifestyle change in the future

[Carnak]

We're more on the same page than you think. I never said we should just use more energy or the same present amount. I agree, take steps to reduce personal energy use. Hell, that is a win, win for us in the HVAC business.
However, that is not going to be enough. What I am saying is, we need to produce more of our energy capacity, here in North America. This is a simple fact. Look at your population growth for the US and Canada, IT AIN'T GOING DOWN. You see, both come into to play.
Carnak, you come off stubborn on this one.

It is going to be a lifestyle change in the near future

[whec720]

It is going to be a lifestyle change in the near future

Yep...times change and lifestyles go with it, no doubt about it. However, if there is a demand, savvy people capitalize on it. If it is energy they want, someone is going to find a way to get it.....for a fee. That's the market in play.

[Carnak]

Yep...times change and lifestyles go with it, no doubt about it. However, if there is a demand, savvy people capitalize on it. If it is energy they want, someone is going to find a way to get it.....for a fee. That's the market in play.



Lifestyles will change you won't see people bragging about keeping it 70 degrees inside when it is 100 outside and AC will be viewd as a luxury agin like it was for your parents and grandparents

as far as demands and savvy people capitalizing on it, that is what is happening now. It may take $10 a gallon to make the idea hit home tho

[whec720]

Lifestyles will change you won't see people bragging about keeping it 70 degrees inside when it is 100 outside and AC will be viewd as a luxury agin like it was for your parents and grandparents

as far as demands and savvy people capitalizing on it, that is what is happening now. It may take $10 a gallon to make the idea hit home tho

Not necessarily so. A/C is considered almost a necessity, much like the cell phone. Sure you can live without it, but most aren't willing to give it up. I think you will see alot more energy efficient systems being installed, along with energy saving controls. If there is a demand, somehow people find a way.

Restraints on exploration and refining, along with a weak dollar, could make a gallon of gas over 10 bucks. Why jump through all those hoops and possibly lose more money than you gain. Can you blame the oil companies on that one? Right now it is more profitable to reap what we sow. Nobody is going to pump crude up from the ground and refine it out of kindness and good will. Something has to be in it for the giver as well as the taker.

[Slatts]

Obviously you buy into the "mankind is the boogie man" stuff...:rolleyes:
To each is own, not going to go in to that.:cool:

Look, for as long as man has been on this earth, he has used its resources. Yet, it is nature that conquers us at every turn. I don't buy the pompass notion, that we are such great powerful beings. I think our egos are much larger than our impact on global climate change. We do play a part, but by how much? That seems to be a subject of great debate as of late.

"mankind is the boogie man" Oh! I didn't know it had a derisive name! now I can ignore it and we can keep ripping the guts out of the worlds rain forests (its lungs) and burning fossil fuels at an unprecedented rate. And if bad things happen it's mother nature who's to blame, Not good old us. Thank the deity of your choice for that. The kids will be relieved when I tell them:rolleyes:


Yep...times change and lifestyles go with it, no doubt about it. However, if there is a demand, savvy people capitalize on it. If it is energy they want, someone is going to find a way to get it.....for a fee. That's the market in play.
Oh, so it's like drug dealing then?


Not necessarily so. A/C is considered almost a necessity, much like the cell phone. Sure you can live without it, but most aren't willing to give it up. I think you will see alot more energy efficient systems being installed, along with energy saving controls. If there is a demand, somehow people find a way.

Restraints on exploration and refining, along with a weak dollar, could make a gallon of gas over 10 bucks. Why jump through all those hoops and possibly lose more money than you gain. Can you blame the oil companies on that one? Right now it is more profitable to reap what we sow. Nobody is going to pump crude up from the ground and refine it out of kindness and good will. Something has to be in it for the giver as well as the taker.

Yes. I see. A lot like dealing in drugs of addiction then.

[whec720]

"mankind is the boogie man" Oh! I didn't know it had a derisive name! now I can ignore it and we can keep ripping the guts out of the worlds rain forests (its lungs) and burning fossil fuels at an unprecedented rate. And if bad things happen it's mother nature who's to blame, Not good old us. Thank the deity of your choice for that. The kids will be relieved when I tell them:rolleyes:


Oh, so it's like drug dealing then?



Yes. I see. A lot like dealing in drugs of addiction then.

No...just something that is in demand. If you see that as an addiction, that's your problem, not mine. There is a demand for fresh water too. Are we addicted to that?
I'll leave the drug dealing to others.:rolleyes:

[Slatts]

No...just something that is in demand. If you see that as an addiction, that's your problem, not mine. There is a demand for fresh water too. Are we addicted to that?
I'll leave the drug dealing to others.:rolleyes:
Fresh water? I suspect if I can't get it I'll die painfully... How's that for withdrawal?

[bootlen]

Fresh water? I suspect if I can't get it I'll die painfully... How's that for withdrawal?

Poor argument, slatts. No question you'd die with no water. Probably wouldn't, though, if you quit using drugs. See, one is a necessity for life. The other is not.

What kinda language ya'll speak down there, anyway?:p

[meoberry]

OK I might have been reaching a bit. But there has to be some other reason for this global waming thing. All the controls on the freon that most of the world has imposed has not made any difference to the ozone layer. And they say that chlorine is one of the culprits if that is the case what about swimming pools the chlorine is going somewhere but I guess that is ok. Talked to a chemical engineer one time he tried to tell me a pool has a differant chlorine in it but it has the same chemical formula.

[Slatts]

Poor argument, slatts. No question you'd die with no water. Probably wouldn't, though, if you quit using drugs. See, one is a necessity for life. The other is not.

What kinda language ya'll speak down there, anyway?:p
We speak semantics and I'm fairly fluent in hair splitting to Boot:D

[Slatts]

OK I might have been reaching a bit. But there has to be some other reason for this global waming thing. All the controls on the freon that most of the world has imposed has not made any difference to the ozone layer. And they say that chlorine is one of the culprits if that is the case what about swimming pools the chlorine is going somewhere but I guess that is ok. Talked to a chemical engineer one time he tried to tell me a pool has a differant chlorine in it but it has the same chemical formula.

Moe... Mate. I'm impressed. You talked to an expert face to face and when what he said wasn't what you wanted to hear you decided he was wrong:D.
You'll go far in this world:D

Ha! scientists! forever trying to cloud the issues with facts!
We should burn them and their books!:mad:

Here are a couple of links (http://www.nas.nasa.gov/About/Education/Ozone/antarctic.html)for you (http://toms.gsfc.nasa.gov/eptoms/dataqual/ozone_v8.html) to ignore (http://www.science.uwaterloo.ca/%7Ecchieh/cact/applychem/ozone.html)

[whec720]

We should burn them and their books!

LOL. Isn't it the other way around? It seems that the global warming "scientific community" are the aggressors, trying to squash anyone who opposes or disagrees with their hypothesis.

You seem to gobble up anything they say, slatts. You even throw in the doom and gloom drama that they love so much. Have a beer and relax. We are all much smaller than we appear.
G'day.:)

[Slatts]

LOL. Isn't it the other way around? It seems that the global warming "scientific community" are the aggressors, trying to squash anyone who opposes or disagrees with their hypothesis.

You seem to gobble up anything they say, slatts. You even throw in the doom and gloom drama that they love so much. Have a beer and relax. We are all much smaller than we appear.
G'day.:)
Gedday whec. I don't think it really matters which you burn first..
My thought is that I'd rather do all I can in case global warming is caused by us than do nothing and find out later that I should have done something. It would be difficult to explain that stance to my kids if I find the world has turned to shirt and I did nothing.
Can't have a beer this week as I'm stuck with call... Well maybe one... or 2
So here I am up late, sober and trolling the forum.

[whec720]

Gedday whec. I don't think it really matters which you burn first..
My thought is that I'd rather do all I can in case global warming is caused by us than do nothing and find out later that I should have done something. It would be difficult to explain that stance to my kids if I find the world has turned to shirt and I did nothing.
Can't have a beer this week as I'm stuck with call... Well maybe one... or 2
So here I am up late, sober and trolling the forum.

I never said do nothing. My stance has always been that we might do a little to effect the Earth's environment, but not to the extent that the "scientific community" claims. I think they have been corrupted by the wealthy socialist elites, who have an entirely different agenda. Folks like these, always use a Trojan Horse, such as animal rights-PETA.
What we can really do to help our world and the future of our children, is to stand up to the bully socialists and refuse to be manipulated. Believe me, that will do a world a good.
I'm finishing a cold one now...jealous?:D

[Slatts]

I never said do nothing. My stance has always been that we might do a little to effect the Earth's environment, but not to the extent that the "scientific community" claims. I think they have been corrupted by the wealthy socialist elites, who have an entirely different agenda. Folks like these, always use a Trojan Horse, such as animal rights-PETA.
What we can really do to help our world and the future of our children, is to stand up to the bully socialists and refuse to be manipulated. Believe me, that will do a world a good.
I'm finishing a cold one now...jealous?:D
sniff... jealousy is beneath me:cool:
And bugger it, I think I'll have one now anyway:D.

[Space Racer]

In 1989 as the Cold War and the threat of nuclear war were winding down, the Union of Concerned Scientists began to circulate a petition urging recognition of global warming as potentially the great danger to mankind. The petition was eventually signed by 700 scientists. Only three or four of the signers, however, had any involvement in climatology. Richard S. Lindzen, MIT

President Clinton and others cite a letter signed by 2600 scientists that global warming will have catastrophic effects on humanity. Thanks to Citizens for a Sound Economy, we know now that fewer than 10% of these "scientists" know anything about climate. Among the signers: a plastic surgeon, two landscape architects, a hotel administrator, a gynecologist, seven sociologists, a linguist, and a practitioner of traditional Chinese medicine. Global Warming Treaty is All Pain, No Gain ---Malcom Wallop

Over 17,000 scientists have signed the Global Warming Petition to express their view that "there is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of carbon dioxide, methane, or other greenhouse gasses is causing or will, in the foreseeable future, cause catastrophic heating of the Earth's atmosphere and disruption of the Earth's climate." The Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine.

From:
http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/GlobWarmTest/A9a.html

Take the Global Warming Test. Verify fact and fiction.