New System for a 16yr old house

[supersyd7]

Folks
I have been reading this site for weeks. I am much more knowledgeable. Hopefully I can get some help to make an informed decision. Long post.

Location: Charlotte, NC
House: 2 story (1500ft downstairs) (1800upstairs)
Units: 2 carrier 2 ton units. Gas Furnace (60k BTU I think)
Issue: In the Summer, house cannot maintain 71 degrees upstairs. Floats to 75. Runs constantly. In high heat 95+ degrees, units never stop.
Humidity: ranges around 45-50% upstairs.

I had 3 contractors come to this house to quote.

Vendor #1

Came from a bigger Mech Services outfit. Had a reference for him and used his company to do some freon charging in the past. Nice guy. Did not spend much time at the house. Walked around and quoted:
American Standard
3 ton upstairs with 80% furnace
2.5 ton downstairs with 80% furnace
I felt this was a hasty analysis. Lots of tonnage. Did not count registers. Did not show me the returns could handle that air flow. Gave quotes or 13 14 and 15 seer options. Was the most expensive quote

Vendor #2
I work with a gentlemen who has spent a lifetime in building and facility maintenance. He recommended this vendor.

He spent a good deal of time looking over the house. Told me he would check and he did but that I needed bigger line sets to support the 2 2.5 ton units he recommended. Would run a gutter up the side of the house. He is a Trane guy.

Trane
Gave a quote for a base 14 SEER (2ttx4030b1000a r-22 and tux1b060a9361a) system with a 92% furnace. Really pitched that the furnace had more $$ savings than just the SEER since less heat went up the pipe. Gave options to upgrade to VS furnce, 15 Seer, and 16 (4ttx6036b1000A) and 95% Seer units. Also had options for Clean Effects. (I know alot has been posted about this and ozone) and Extended Warranty. The quote structure really and rebates from Trane really bring the 15 and 16 Seer units very close. Trance 800series thermostats. 800a for the 14 seer and 802A for the vs furnaces.

His rationale was that the upstairs was undersized and that both floors could support 2.5 tons without issue. 10 registers downstairs at 100cfm would not whistle. Advice.

Said the 16xi systems were like 2 stage systems in efficiency.



Vendor #3
Recommended from my carpenter. Uses him in his circle of contractors. Very nice guy. Very straight forward. His quote was electronic and was very easy to paste. He included the 10yr extended warranty in the price of the work. Felt it was something that was a good idea. Also wants to reduct some of the upstairs to the registers. Vendor 2 wants to the main trunk. Vendor 3 want to metal flex pipe to the registers. Also new line sets.

Carrier
UPSTAIRS-
The removal & disposal of the old equipment & ductwork
Carrier 2.5 ton minimum 13 SEER system
Carrier 80% up flow gas furnace in the attic as discussed
Carrier minimum 13 SEER outdoor unit on new pad
Carrier digital programmable thermostat to optimize efficiency
*
OPTION 1
Performance 80% Gas Furnace with 13 SEER Base Series ac****************
58sta / 24aba / EDGE thermostat / two stage heating
OPTION 2
Infinity 80% Gas Furnace with 14 SEER Comfort Series ac****************************** ***********************
58cva / 24aca / EDGE thermostat / variable speed furnace with two stage heating
OPTION 3
Infinity 80% Gas Furnace with 15 SEER Performance Series ac***********
58cva / 24apa5 / EDGE thermostat / variable speed furnace with two stage heating / our highest efficiency single speed air
*
*
DOWNSTAIRS-
Carrier 2 ton minimum 13 SEER system
Carrier 80% up flow gas furnace in the attic as discussed
Carrier minimum 13 SEER outdoor unit on new pad
Carrier digital programmable thermostat to optimize efficiency
*
OPTION 1
Performance 80% Gas Furnace with 13 SEER Base Series ac*
58sta / 24aba / EDGE thermostat / two stage heating
*
OPTION 2
Infinity 80% Gas Furnace with 14 SEER Comfort Series a
58cva / 24aca / EDGE thermostat / variable speed furnace with two stage heating
*
OPTION 3
Infinity 80% Gas Furnace with 15 SEER Performance Series ac*********
58cva / 24apa5 / EDGE thermostat / variable speed furnace with two stage heating / our highest efficiency single speed air conditioner

All furnaces include 4” filter cabinets for improved air filtration and quality .

Really down to vendor 2 vs vendor 3. Carrier vs Trane and such.
Any advice?

[beenthere]

To me, Contractor 3, seems to be addressing your possible needs the most.

Number 1 just wants to slam bigger equipment in.
Number 2 seems to be oversizing the first floor system because your having trouble on teh second floor.

So #3 gets my vote.

[tigerdunes]

supersyd

If operating costs are important to you, then all three dealers are doing a disservice to you by not recommending heat pumps. Charlotte has a mild winter climate and reasonable electric rates.

for the upstairs, I recommend either Carrier Performance 15 HP with matching var speed air handler and Infinity controller or Trane's Xl15i HP with matching var speed air handler and Honeywell Vision Pro IAQ.

for downstairs, I recommend Carrier's Infinity 80 paired with Performance 15 HP and Infinity controller or Trane's XV80 with XL15i HP and HW Vision Pro IAQ.

you definitely want var spd blowers for both upstairs and downstairs.

for most homes/homeowners, a good 4-5" pleated media cabinet is more than sufficient for IAQ and to protect blower motor/evap coil.

IMO
:)

[supersyd7]

Tigerdunes,
Both my air handlers are in the attic. The downstairs registers are in the ceilings. Since gas is piped to the furnaces already and the line sets have a long run, does the efficiency of the heat pump get compromised in this lay out?

Do the heatpumps provide constant low temperature heating but not really warm the house up. I have never been a heat pump owner.

AS an addition. Heat pumps add cost to the quotes. about 15-20% vs the plain furnace. What is the payback?

Vendor 3 is open to the discussion, hence the referenced cost above. Vendor 2 says it's not really the payback I think. More talk vs result.

[arc8]

Sorry, but i stopped reading after i've seen aiming for 71 degrees when outside at 95+.

Maybe, just maybe, this unit just can't take it below 75 degrees, and has never meant to go that low for comfort sake!

Isn't 71 a little too cold for A/C?

[beenthere]

Sorry, but i stopped reading after i've seen aiming for 71 degrees when outside at 95+.

Maybe, just maybe, this unit just can't take it below 75 degrees, and has never meant to go that low for comfort sake!

Isn't 71 a little too cold for A/C?
Not in my house.
I can do 68*F when its over 95* outside if need be.(like before having a party)
Although I generally keep it 72*F with 48%RH.(I like it cold)

[tigerdunes]

supersyd

depending on the lineset length from the air handler to the condenser, there may be a derating of efficiency whether a straight AC condenser or a HP condenser. This would be a question better answered by your dealer if he is experienced in heat pumps and has an open mind.

as far as warming your home, a heat pump is a perfect match for your location/climate and can definitely provide "warm" supply air. I know this as a fact as I have dual fuel and live about 80 miles south of Charlotte down 85.

I am going to provide you a link to a fuel comparison calculator. The price difference between an AC condenser to a HP condenser will easily be offset by your energy savings especially vs an 80% furnace. I know this as a fact! Run the numbers.

Let me know if you have questions.

IMO
:)

link to fuel comparison calculator
http://www.warmair.com/html/fuel_cost_comparisons.htm

[supersyd7]

Tiger Dunes
I will check out the site. Seems that a 95% furnace holds up a decent cost to a heat pump. I like the idea. All for being green but I think I'd need a tax rebate or other incentive to pile on the cost.

I have the option of just replacing the upstairs unit this year. Downstairs works fine. I am concerned about 2.5 tons downstairs. Feel it is too much.

Based on an upstairs only, the two quotes are very close. I have trouble reconciling why Carrier and this vendor are so close in cost with a 15Seer and 80% furnace when up against Trane with a 95% and 16Seer unit.

The project is thousands more than I first thought. As a residential guy this industry is very confusing as every environmental aspect is variable. The equipment, insulation, ducting, efficiencies, housing layout. And each vendor has a perspective unique to how they view the solution.

Rolling with a 14 Seer and 80% furnace not VS would be the closest thing to a like for like swap out.

I am comfortable with both vendors' quality. I might be undervaluing the duct work and overvaluaing Seer.

[beenthere]

I think you right about the 2.5 being too much for the first floor.
If you were to opt for a heat pump for the first floor sometime down the road. Have your supplies checked for air thow pattern. Doubtful they through the air down. If they don't, you won't get the performance from a HP some people will tell you you'll get.

We install a lot of HP's up here. Ceiling supply grille selection can make or break a HP. If you have high returns only, you may not feel as comfortable. Without getting new supply grilles.

[dash]

With both indoor units in the attic,why not install one 5 ton ,two stage,withe zoning,Hybrid Heat,and have the best system .

[supersyd7]

Please expand on this thought.

What are advantages?

[RyanHughes]

Please expand on this thought.

What are advantages?

Carrier makes a system called the Infinity System. The Infinity heat pump 25HNA660 (with a 50%/100% capacity split) and a 25HNA960 (with ~67%/100% capacity split) have dual-stage compressors, so they can run on a low stage with less capacity (so for example 2.5 tons). You can use a zoning system to control both zones separately with the same unit. Carrier has a very sophisticated zoning system (I believe it requires no bypass damper as it control the amount of airflow for each zone). The Infinity control is something special as well.

There is also identical Bryant units that just looks different.

From ARI Directory:


25HNA660A30 + FE4ANB006+UI = 60,000 BTU/H Cooling, 11.10 EER, 15.30 SEER, 9.00 HSPF & 57,500 BTU/H Heating


25HNA960A30 + FE4ANB006+UI = 57,500 BTU/H Cooling, 11.60 EER, 15.50 SEER, 9.10 HSPF & 59,000 BTU/H Heating


And of course the Infinity system has some cool features...

Hope this helps.

[supersyd7]

I will investigate this option.

I have two 20x20 returns and a 14x20 return to feed 4 current tons. Will those returns work for a 5 ton unit. There was discussion that 2.5 tons was too much for downstairs.

[beenthere]

Before having a 5 ton Carrier Infinity system installed, I would suggest seeing if you can improve the attic insulation. To lower the second floor load.
I believe the Carrier 5 ton with the TS 50/100 compressor is actually 3 tons capacity in first stage. Has to do with the over sized coils in first stage.

I still prefer the 2 unit set up since you already have it.

[supersyd7]

Beenthere
I think I prefer the 2unit setup but want to be informed.

As far as the upstairs goes, I really have trouble comparing the Trane 16 SEER vs the Carrier Infinity 15 Seer.

The dehumdification piece is what I am studying. The 803 thermostat with the Trane, I cannot find a dehumidification function.

I read about the Honeywell t-stats and clima-touch and such.

My desire is to see if I can obtain higher comfort with higher temps. Also have times in the year when neither heat nor a/c are needed. So reciriculating can keep the house fresh with less dust and more comfortable.

Guess I am questioning the 802/803 themostat vs the infinity system. Was wondering the 900 series thermosta was a better device or go with the Honeywell or climatouch.

[beenthere]

The 802 does nothing for humidity. The 803 can cool to dehumidify, and over cool by up to 3*, but can't slow the blower.
The 900 can cool to dehumidify and slow the blower. So can the IAQ. Both of them will allow over cooling by up to 3*.

[supersyd7]

1. Can the IAQ and 803 and 900 work with non communicating systems? I am being told that the 802 has to be used with the system.

2. I am looking at a 2ton xl16i for downstairs (1500sqft )vs the 3ton. Real concerned about the dehumidification and that tstats.

3. I am concerned about the furnaces. It is tough to get a reading on the Trane furnaces.

My Trane quote is for two TUH2B060A9V3VA furnaces.

The TUH 60's state 37700/58800 btuh on the Trane website. As 95% systems are these the observed settingsor after they (theorectically @ pure efficient 95%)35815/53010.

If they are the lower numbers I think the downstairs furnace would need more btus. My 15yr old 72,000 btu furnace is weak. Could a 95% 58800 produce the same heat considering the ductwork is untouchably in the ceiling.

Charlotte does not get very cold but there are nights in mid teens to twenties. The current aged system leaves the downstairs chilly. Does the VS blower and two stage make up for the lesser BTUs?

[beenthere]

1. Can the IAQ and 803 and 900 work with non communicating systems? I am being told that the 802 has to be used with the system.

The only difference between teh 802 nad 803 is that the 803 can do cool to dehumidify. The IAQ can be used on a 16i, but you won't get the full use of it from the 16i.

2. I am looking at a 2ton xl16i for downstairs (1500sqft )vs the 3ton. Real concerned about the dehumidification and that tstats.

A 16i would not be my choice if humidity is a concern. But with comfort r enabled, and if you use the 803, or IAQ and enable cool to dehumidify, you should be ok.

3. I am concerned about the furnaces. It is tough to get a reading on the Trane furnaces.

My Trane quote is for two TUH2B060A9V3VA furnaces.

The TUH 60's state 37700/58800 btuh on the Trane website. As 95% systems are these the observed settings or after they (theorectically @ pure efficient 95%)35815/53010.

Its a 58,000 BTU output on high, and 37,700 output in first stage.

If they are the lower numbers I think the downstairs furnace would need more btus. My 15yr old 72,000 btu furnace is weak. Could a 95% 58800 produce the same heat considering the ductwork is untouchably in the ceiling.

Is that 72,000 input or output. If input, the new Trane puts out 400 more BTUs.

Charlotte does not get very cold but there are nights in mid teens to twenties. The current aged system leaves the downstairs chilly. Does the VS blower and two stage make up for the lesser BTUs?

The VS blower only helps to move the air better. If your house needs more then the furnaces rated BTUs, a VS blower won't make up for having less.
Part of your heating problem could be that the current furnaces blower can't move the air.

[supersyd7]

If a 16i is not a choice to dehumidify, what do you suggest.

The upstairs unit is shot. I am comfortable with the 3 ton 16i upstairs. With a 803 stat, I am comfortable with that sytem. Will add two more registers and will have a comfy upstairs.

The downstairs is my dilemma. With the ducting in the ceiling, I do not have much ability to change the layout. Resizing makes me uncomfortable. I have 10 registers and am concerned about raising tonnage. Plus 2 tons have done well for years downstairs. Upstairs is underpowered.

I may just replace upstairs now.

I like the company I am working with.

[beenthere]

The 19i would be better for humidity control. unfortunately, teh price increase is very significant.
A 2 ton xl15 with a VS blower and IAQ stat will do better at moisture removal then the 16i.
The 16i in first stage will be running a capacity of about 1.6 tons in first stage.

[beenthere]

Have the second floor done first, and see how it does both cooling and dehumidifing. Then later, you will know if you want a 16i for your first floor also.