Am I overanalyzing?

[MrCaddy]

I need to replace my 12 year old 12 Seer Rheem/ruud system. I have rust, oil leak in the air handler, and 2 freon leaks. I live in Tampa, Florida, and dispite the warm weather, we keep it around 70 degrees year round. I knew this day was going to come...

So I am looking for a perfect system, and a perfect installer (and willing to pay a little extra for it).

To find the "perfect Installers", I started a search:

I did a 4 part Installer search.
#1: Angie's list Rated "A"
#2: ACCA Listed
#3: Clean BBB report
#4: NATE certified technicians

I came up with 1 Company that met all 4 (in business since 1971) and another that met 3 (didn't have ACCA, been in business since 1989)

Oddly enough, they are both primarily Carrier dealers, although I know one also carries Trane (not sure about the other one)

So now, I am looking for a "perfect system", but have no idea where to start. Should I get a humidifier, or a de-humidifier? Should I have a air cleaning unit (like Trane CleanEffects) ? Should I worry about SEER or EER (seeing as I almost NEVER use the heat). Should I convert to a Heat pump? Should a consider a matched system? or grab-bag it with 'best-of-breed"?

It's a 1875sq ft house, in Tampa Florida, and we keep it at 70 year round. Current System is a 12 year old Rheem/ruud 12 seer scroll Air conditioner with some sort of air handler.

You guys here are the experts... what would you do?

Oh..and I will make sure that they do a "manual J" calculation when they come out in the next few days.

[I_bend_metal]

I think you should ask all of these questions to the salesmen that come to your home to bid on your business. After that, get back to us with their answers to your questions and then we can really have some fun! :D Seriously though, you should be asking them these questions.....not only will you get informative (hopefully) answers, but will also help you to gain an overall impression of each company. And I wouldn't worry too much about Nate Certified stuff.....just means they can pass a test on paper.

[bmathews]

Out of your entire statement. There is one thing you do not need, that is a humidifier. A variable speed air handler should accomodate any de-humidification needs you might have. Buy as much system as you can afford. If you overspend, you will hate it and it will never work right no matter what.

[the dangling wrangler]

You can throw out #'s 1 &3

[dan sw fl]

You can visit DASH

http://www.bayareacool.com

[MrCaddy]

Hmmm. Bay Area Air Conditioning meets 3 of the 4 as well. I had them confused with Bay Area Heating and cooling.

And yet another Carrier Dealer? I see a trend.

I went to Wally world since I posted earlier, and bought a Indoor tempature/humidity gauge (digital)

Thermostat:set @ 72 degrees.
Office: 75 degrees, 56-62% humidity
Kitchen: 71 degrees, 56% humidity

Almost all the lights are off in the house. everybodies asleep. Hmmm... high humidity?

[dan sw fl]

I went to Wally world since I posted earlier, and bought a Indoor temperature/humidity gauge (digital)

Thermostat:set @ 72 degrees.
Office: 75 degrees, 56-62% humidity
Kitchen: 71 degrees, 56% humidity

Hmmm... high humidity?

Sure is high RH.

I keep my residence at ~ 78'F.
Of course, it feels better than 72'F because
the Relative Humidity is 39%.

[Shophound]

Hmmm. Bay Area Air Conditioning meets 3 of the 4 as well. I had them confused with Bay Area Heating and cooling.

And yet another Carrier Dealer? I see a trend.

I went to Wally world since I posted earlier, and bought a Indoor tempature/humidity gauge (digital)

Thermostat:set @ 72 degrees.
Office: 75 degrees, 56-62% humidity
Kitchen: 71 degrees, 56% humidity

Almost all the lights are off in the house. everybodies asleep. Hmmm... high humidity?

It's possible your house is a great example of throwing a lot of energy at a problem that may have several passive solutions, the problems possibly being:

Leaky doors, windows, and ceiling penetrations that adjoin the attic
Sub-marginal attic insulation/lack of radiant barrier
Marginally or unshaded exterior windows/walls on east, south, and west facing facadesThe battle for comfort in hot, humid climates is largely a humidity war. Dan stated he finds himself comfortable at 78 degrees, which may seem stifling at first glance, but he then lists an indoor humidity level of 39%! I'm confident Dan achieves this target through a combination of good HVAC system design/installation and a building envelope that works to keep excessive moisture out of the home so the a/c isn't running itself to death to barely stay ahead of the humidity invasion.

True, your present system sounds like it is shot. All I'm saying is while you're in pursuit of your "perfect system", think about ways to make your house structure itself more thermally "perfect" so your a/c doesn't need to work so hard. You may find that if you do, your energy bills will be lower AND your indoor humidity levels will be much more reasonable.

[bmathews]

It's possible your house is a great example of throwing a lot of energy at a problem that may have several passive solutions, the problems possibly being:

Leaky doors, windows, and ceiling penetrations that adjoin the attic
Sub-marginal attic insulation/lack of radiant barrier
Marginally or unshaded exterior windows/walls on east, south, and west facing facadesThe battle for comfort in hot, humid climates is largely a humidity war. Dan stated he finds himself comfortable at 78 degrees, which may seem stifling at first glance, but he then lists an indoor humidity level of 39%! I'm confident Dan achieves this target through a combination of good HVAC system design/installation and a building envelope that works to keep excessive moisture out of the home so the a/c isn't running itself to death to barely stay ahead of the humidity invasion.

True, your present system sounds like it is shot. All I'm saying is while you're in pursuit of your "perfect system", think about ways to make your house structure itself more thermally "perfect" so your a/c doesn't need to work so hard. You may find that if you do, your energy bills will be lower AND your indoor humidity levels will be much more reasonable.

I had a guy call us out last year because his electric bills were $600/month on a 3 ton system, about 8 years old. He wanted a quote on a new high efficient system to lower his bills. I got up in the attic to see what was happening and he had areas with no insulation and other areas with less than 4" of insulation. I told him to insulate, then we would quote him a price, but installing a new system will only lower your electric bills slightly with his situation. He insulated and cut his bills to $200/month with just that. He never bought a system, he didn't need it. His is working fine.

[snowbunny]

Questions:

* how old is the house?
* is it one or two storeys? (do you have a lofted attic?)
* do you know the rating of the insulation in the walls? in the ceilings?
* is the caulking and weatherstripping around windows and doors in good repair?
* is it at all possible you might have a plumbing leak somewhere?

[MrCaddy]

Questions:

* how old is the house? Built in 1979
* is it one or two storeys? Single story, no basement, attic is nothing more than crawl space
* do you know the rating of the insulation in the walls? in the ceilings? NOPE
* is the caulking and weatherstripping around windows and doors in good repair? Yes, except for a set of french doors that need to be replaced (probably right after I finish replacing the A/C system)* is it at all possible you might have a plumbing leak somewhere? Doubt it, just finished complete remodel of both bathrooms, and they look good.


Oddly enough, my electric bill isn't that bad (in my mind). I average bills around $250/ month. I also have a Pool Pump, which runs 8 hours a day, a well pump for the sprinkler system (several times a week), and the usual appliances. $250/mo isn't bad for 72 degrees inside...in florida. And there is no question that my old system needs to be replaced. I'm surprised they didn't notic the thing rusting away when they "serviced" it 3 months. Needless to say, they will not be back.

I have a few HVAC reps coming out this week...let's see what they have to say.

[teddy bear]

I need to replace my 12 year old 12 Seer Rheem/ruud system. I have rust, oil leak in the air handler, and 2 freon leaks. I live in Tampa, Florida, and dispite the warm weather, we keep it around 70 degrees year round. I knew this day was going to come...

So I am looking for a perfect system, and a perfect installer (and willing to pay a little extra for it).

To find the "perfect Installers", I started a search:

I did a 4 part Installer search.
#1: Angie's list Rated "A"
#2: ACCA Listed
#3: Clean BBB report
#4: NATE certified technicians

I came up with 1 Company that met all 4 (in business since 1971) and another that met 3 (didn't have ACCA, been in business since 1989)

Oddly enough, they are both primarily Carrier dealers, although I know one also carries Trane (not sure about the other one)

So now, I am looking for a "perfect system", but have no idea where to start. Should I get a humidifier, or a de-humidifier? Should I have a air cleaning unit (like Trane CleanEffects) ? Should I worry about SEER or EER (seeing as I almost NEVER use the heat). Should I convert to a Heat pump? Should a consider a matched system? or grab-bag it with 'best-of-breed"?

It's a 1875sq ft house, in Tampa Florida, and we keep it at 70 year round. Current System is a 12 year old Rheem/ruud 12 seer scroll Air conditioner with some sort of air handler.

You guys here are the experts... what would you do?

Oh..and I will make sure that they do a "manual J" calculation when they come out in the next few days.

Components that most agree on:
Air tight adequately sized ducts throughout the house.
A MERV 11 air filter minimum 24X24X4 or larger.
A reasonably air tight home, max of an airchange every 4 hours during average wind and cold weather.
75 cfm of mechanical make-up fresh air ventilation when the home is occupied.
A time of day set-up or set-back thermostat for optimum control.
Maintain <50%RH while ventilating, during low/no a/c load. A whole house ventilating dehumidifier is one way of getting filtered, fresh air along with <50%RH even with a/c off or set high or during wet cool weather. This also allows slight a/c oversizing for extra occupants and rapid cool down after temperature set-up when the home is not occcupied. The a/c can be a simple high SEER or full featured. VS fans are nice with adequately sized ducts. Virtually silent operation is great.
Adequate fresh air during cool wet weather is the greatest challenge. 75 cfm of fresh is a minimum for 4 occupants to purge indoor pollutants and renew oxygen. A good dehumidifier or reheat are the only methods that engineers agree will maintain <50%RH without any cooling load. Home that are able to maintain low humidity during wet cool weather are not getting any fresh air and have only one or two people. Regards TB

[snowbunny]

Questions:

* how old is the house? Built in 1979
* is it one or two storeys? Single story, no basement, attic is nothing more than crawl space
* do you know the rating of the insulation in the walls? in the ceilings? NOPE

Oddly enough, my electric bill isn't that bad (in my mind). I average bills around $250/ month. I also have a Pool Pump, which runs 8 hours a day, a well pump for the sprinkler system (several times a week), and the usual appliances. $250/mo isn't bad for 72 degrees inside...in florida.


Are your bills $250/month in the summer?

With a single storey and only a crawl space, I would make sure you have adequate insulation up there. If the roof is shaded by trees, that will help, but in hurricane country the trees might not be permanent. If the insulation is the original 1979 insulation it may not be sufficient or may need replacing. If there are any leaks from the outside into the insulation it could be acting like a sponge when it rains. There are meters that poke a small pin into the wall and measure humidity. If your insulation is significantly humid, this is also a risk for mold growth. I had a house on the Gulf coast with heat and humidity and a crawl space, and it was a challenge to keep the humidity down.

Good luck with your consultation!

[dan sw fl]

Questions:
* how old is the house? Built in 1979
* is it one or two storeys? Single story, no basement, attic is nothing more than crawl space
* do you know the rating of the insulation in the walls? in the ceilings? NOPE

Is it at all possible you might have a plumbing leak somewhere? Doubt it, just finished complete remodel of both bathrooms, and they look good.

Oddly enough, my electric bill isn't that bad (in my mind). I average bills around $250/ month.

I also have a Pool Pump, which runs 8 hours a day, a well pump for the sprinkler system (several times a week), and the usual appliances.

$250/mo isn't bad for 72 degrees inside...in florida.

And there is no question that my old system needs to be replaced.


Isn't bad is definitely a relative term.
$250 per month electric bill for a
relatively new 1,875 sq feet residence in South Florida
with 12 SEER equipment
is likely 50&#37; to 100% more than the norm .

Pool pump operating cost might be $20 -$25 per month.

Of course, that high humidity and low temperature must be paid for thrice.

Once, with the monthly electric bill,
secondly, with much more frequent equipment replacement,
thrice, with less comfort at > 45% R.H.

Anything < 78' F at ~40% would be considered too cool
to many Floridians.


Don't forget to throwout that low bid.

[Shophound]

I had a guy call us out last year because his electric bills were $600/month on a 3 ton system, about 8 years old. He wanted a quote on a new high efficient system to lower his bills. I got up in the attic to see what was happening and he had areas with no insulation and other areas with less than 4" of insulation. I told him to insulate, then we would quote him a price, but installing a new system will only lower your electric bills slightly with his situation. He insulated and cut his bills to $200/month with just that. He never bought a system, he didn't need it. His is working fine.

Did you sell him a PM agreement, at least? :D

You may have lost a sale, but you likely have free advertising going for you, now, and he'll likely call you if his system has a problem.

Your post aptly illustrates the point how merely bringing insulation levels up to acceptable standards nets a marked improvement in utlity costs and comfort levels. Radiant barriers also help...their biggest dividends are if part or all of the HVAC equipment is in the attic. I stuck my head up into my father-in-law's attic yesterday afternoon. It has a spray-on radiant barrier installed. The attic was quite warm but it was not knock you over take your breath away bake oven hot. Outside temp was in the low nineties. I did not instantly break into a sweat like what happens with many attics under similar outdoor temperatures. He keeps the interior at 78...before the RB and insulation was added last year, 78 was NOT a comfy temperature inside that house. The air may have been 78, but the ceilings were a giant radiant heat transfer system, making sitting in that house at 78 requiring a fan blowing on you directly to be comfy. His utility bills overall have dropped significantly - it's an all-electric house with electric resistance heat.

[MrCaddy]

So...here we go.

I decided to go with 2 quotes, as I am slammed and my schedule doesn't allow me much time with this.

Vendor #1: Carrier dealer, met 3 of my 4 requirements
(to be fair, I had to rescehdule and have somebody him meet my father at the house, as I was unable to attend).
I discussed the issues with the sales rep on the phone. He came out, looked in the ceiling, and looked around the house, and inquired about the square footage. He didn't go to look at the Heat pump till after my father asked what the cost may be to repair the old unit.
His findings:
Air return was inadequate, ducting to rear of the house was improperly installed. Heat pump was a 3.5 ton unit, Air handler was a 4 ton unit.
Said that Carrier 'infinity' series was only sold in full ton sizes only(no .5). Told my dad that I could go with a 3 ton (which would be a little small), or a 4ton, which would be a little big. He reccomended adding returns to 2 bedrooms (I think he mentioned 12"). He stated that he would get with me about what I needed. No quote was left.

I inquired multiple times to my father, "Did he actually measure anything". The answer was NO. No drawing, no measuring tape...nothing. Obviously, No Manual J.

It's been 6 hours since he left...no word, no quote. Maybe he'll mail it to me via mail.... :rolleyes:

Vendor #2: Carrier dealer, met 3 of my 4 requirements
(as I mentioned before, only Carrier dealers seemed to meet my requirements)
I was there for this appointment. This rep started out in the attic checking out the ducting, air handler, etc. Then he moved inside, and pulled out a measuring tape and grid paper and measured away. Afterwards, he sat at my table, and plugged away with the numbers. voila! a Manual J (And I never asked or hinted at one.)

According to his estimates, I needed a 3.85 ton unit.
He also noted the incorrect return size, teh improper ducting to the rear rooms,etc.
I mentioned my Humidity concerns, in particular, the master bedroom (which was at 72&#37; humidity at the time. We both noted that the kitchen was only at 58%. He reccomended that we re-seal our Skylight, as it may be the source of a leak.

He said we could add additional returns to our master bedroom if we liked.

he quote had 4 different Carrier configurations (he printed them right there). I'm gonna share the first 2.

#1
Carrier Infinity 16 (15.8 SEER)
Part # 25HNA648
Infinity FE variable Air Handler
part# FE4ANF005
Infinity Control
10yr Parts and labor

#2
Carrier Performance 14 (14.5 SEER)
Part# 25HPA448
Performance FV Variable speed air handler
Part# FV4BNF005
Thermidistat Control
10yr Compressor & parts, 1 yr Labor

Obviously, the Carrier Infinity will be the one that most here would reccomend. Obviously, I have Humidity concerns, but will this be sufficient to address this? ( I should note that it was reccomended that I keep the fan running constant since it basically falling apart. This is possibly a reason for the raised humidity.)

What about an Air Purifier? I haven't been reccomended one, and don't know if I should even have one. Are they really worth asking about?

thoughts???
Charles