California Duct Sealing Incentive

[cfb]

I'm a little confused about yet another issue with my installing contractor, could use a little help from someone who does California installs and is familiar with the duct sealing rebate from PG&E.

I saw that PG&E offers up to a $600 duct sealing rebate for people installing a 14 seer a/c and sealing ducts that are leaking at 15% or more. My ducts before the install were terrible, no tape, mastic or any sealer and just some loose tie wraps, and half inch gaps between the boots and floor/drywall.

I talked this over with the salesman, who said if they were over 15% leakage, I'd qualify. When we discussed his quote over the phone, I stepped through the rebates and costs.

They replaced the furnace, replaced some UV damaged ducts with r-6, and ran an additional 3rd r-6 return. Then they leak tested and got a 25% loss.

A 'HERS' rater came out and when the contractor didnt show up, he and I taped up all the boots and I sealed a couple of cabinets that just had a pipe coming up through the floor under them and were blowing air not just through the register plate on the front of the cabinet kick panel, but also through every seam in the cabinet. We retested at 10%.

When I checked with PG&E after 3 months went by with no rebate, they referred me to Entelysis who processes these. They said they had some paperwork from the contractor, but there were no "before" numbers, just the "after" number of 10%, so no info that would indicate I qualified for the rebate.

I faxed them over all the paperwork I had (permits, cf-6, etc) along with a statement that I had seen the 418 loss of 1600cfm being put into the system. I called the install manager at the contractor and left him a voicemail that I needed him to put that 418 number on the paperwork as the 'before' number and fax it over. Got a call from the salesman later that day to tell me that since it wasnt written on the contract that they were going to do that, that they werent going to do it. He says he never mentioned anything about rebates.

I've called Entelysis again but they arent returning my calls.

What should I have expected from this procedure, other than that the contractor would have done the pre-install leak test and the after install and submitted the paperwork? Was I supposed to pay extra for that? Anyone know any escalation/recourse for this? PG&E keeps pointing at Entelysis and they're not responding.

Any help/advice on how this is SUPPOSED to work would be really appreciated.

[weber]

You should see something on your contract that states duct testing.

Normally the contractor can not test their own work and needs to be tested by a 3rd party.

You rater should not have touched the system besides testing.

[jrbenny]

With the static pressure you are experiencing, I sure wouldn't be sealing any ducts yet.

You'll really kill the VS blower with sealed ducts.

[jrbenny]

Hmm..

Reread the OP.

Guess you've already made the 'improvements.'



This is a prime example of government regulation failing our industry. Here you've tested for leakage and made some corrections.

Yet the OP's duct system is undersized/improper as he has an ESP approaching 1" WC.

I wonder how much energy is being save with the ECM pushing like it is.

[cfb]

Man, you guys are FULL of sunshine ;)

The contractor had the capability to test the ducts, said they were one of the few companies that did. When they did the test it was a 25% loss, and that was after they did some work.

I know the rater wasnt supposed to do any work but the installing contractors crew was supposed to be here at the same time and didnt show up until 2 hours later. The rater got impatient and wanted to leave so he asked me if I had any metal tape (which I did) and he started sealing. Badly. He was just taping from the boots up and over the carpet and then putting the registers back on.

So I stopped him and I did it.

Unfortunately my contractor didnt explain any aspect of this, so I didnt know who was supposed to do what.

So is it customary for the installing company to NOT do a test in order to secure the $300-600 rebate for the customer?

I sort of figured the way the whole thing worked was that the state required the sealing, then to compensate for forcing customers to spend money on it they offered the utility rebate program.

Sort of pointless if the contractor doesnt do the test, doesnt tell you about the specifics, and then pretends you never talked about it.

Oh, and after they were done with all the work, I found two ducts (a return and a supply) line that were strapped so tight the internal pipe was half crushed, the new 3rd supply they put on was teed in to an existing return line in the crawlspace but only tie wrapped on 2 of the 3 tee legs, and I was getting almost no air flow in 2 of the 3 smaller bedrooms whereas before I got plenty.

So they had a guy come out again and I think he painted all the fittings with mastic...he had a full can when he went into the attic and crawlspace and came out with none.

He also put some dampers in to adjust the air flow to get some air into the other two rooms.

I'm guessing they werent supposed to do all that and then not get a re-test?

[mark beiser]

10% is still way to much leakage, but it sounds like you need some other duct renovation, and/or redesign, besides just sealing a crappy duct system.

[gplant]

Man, you guys are FULL of sunshine ;)

So is it customary for the installing company to NOT do a test in order to secure the $300-600 rebate for the customer?

I sort of figured the way the whole thing worked was that the state required the sealing, then to compensate for forcing customers to spend money on it they offered the utility rebate program.

Sort of pointless if the contractor doesnt do the test, doesnt tell you about the specifics, and then pretends you never talked about it.

….

So they had a guy come out again and I think he painted all the fittings with mastic...he had a full can when he went into the attic and crawlspace and came out with none.

He also put some dampers in to adjust the air flow to get some air into the other two rooms.

I'm guessing they werent supposed to do all that and then not get a re-test?

I am so sorry that you got mixed up in the duct sealing rebate program. I am an estimator, and I do my best to steer many (but not all) of my clients away from trying to get that rebate. Here is why:

1) In many places, no longer are there incentives for simply installing a good system. You can’t just buy, install, and get your rebate.

2) The duct testing process requires that the system installers perform specialized tests on the equipment and fill out a great deal of paperwork. This means extra time on the job.

3) The duct testing (in most cases) must be done twice. This means more man-hours and equipment usage.

4) The ductwork then has to be sealed. This part of the step is almost always worthwhile, but if all you want is some A/C to beat the heat, the extra expense of sealing your ducts might make the purchase price out of your budget. (If you can afford the duct sealing, it is very much worth it down the road).

5) After completing all the tests, spending all the extra money, and getting all the paperwork filled out, you have to deal with the rebate bureaucracy. The bureaucracy is not supposed to be easy, and here is why:

I checked on the local power company’s website about the reason for the more stringent requirements for HVAC systems. It turns out that too many people were installing high efficiency systems and getting rebate checks, and the funding set aside for the rebates was drying up way too fast. Solution? Make it harder to qualify for the rebate. Thus, the duct sealing requirement.

It sounds like the last guy at your house did the right thing. He installed dampers to balance the air flow (a quality duct installer will always include dampers as part of the original install).

If you are going to get your ducts sealed, do it to improve the efficiency of your house. Don’t do it to get that rebate check. After the headaches, added costs, and red tape, it’s not usually worth it.

Glenn

[cfb]

Good info, thanks. Unfortunately I spent a LOT on the duct sealing and was expecting that $600 back to comp me for it in part. I'd have done it regardless of the rebate, but I have to say its a bit irksome for the state to require it, offer a rebate program through the utilities and then make it unfeasible for anyone to collect on it.

In reading the section on the pg&e web site, it seems like this is just a matter of course and the contractor will take care of it for you.

Sounds like I need to write a few letters to some of the state congresscritters.

[weber]

I am so sorry that you got mixed up in the duct sealing rebate program. I am an estimator, and I do my best to steer many (but not all) of my clients away from trying to get that rebate. Here is why:

1) In many places, no longer are there incentives for simply installing a good system. You can’t just buy, install, and get your rebate.

2) The duct testing process requires that the system installers perform specialized tests on the equipment and fill out a great deal of paperwork. This means extra time on the job.

3) The duct testing (in most cases) must be done twice. This means more man-hours and equipment usage.

4) The ductwork then has to be sealed. This part of the step is almost always worthwhile, but if all you want is some A/C to beat the heat, the extra expense of sealing your ducts might make the purchase price out of your budget. (If you can afford the duct sealing, it is very much worth it down the road).

5) After completing all the tests, spending all the extra money, and getting all the paperwork filled out, you have to deal with the rebate bureaucracy. The bureaucracy is not supposed to be easy, and here is why:

I checked on the local power company’s website about the reason for the more stringent requirements for HVAC systems. It turns out that too many people were installing high efficiency systems and getting rebate checks, and the funding set aside for the rebates was drying up way too fast. Solution? Make it harder to qualify for the rebate. Thus, the duct sealing requirement.

It sounds like the last guy at your house did the right thing. He installed dampers to balance the air flow (a quality duct installer will always include dampers as part of the original install).

If you are going to get your ducts sealed, do it to improve the efficiency of your house. Don’t do it to get that rebate check. After the headaches, added costs, and red tape, it’s not usually worth it.

Glenn

A rebate check is not a way for the consumer to make money, its there to aid with the cost of a higher effecient system.

I really hope your not telling consumers that load you just posted!

[GreenDude]

CFB
As I'm sure you know, having a properly sealed duct system is a key component of an energy efficient system. In my dealings with PG&E, the last thing they want is a disgruntled customer out making noise to the world. So, make some noise! PG&E can likely put some pressure on the contractor to make your system right AND get your rebate through the system.

By the way, your duct system should tested one final time for leakage. Don't be surprised if there is still work to be done.

[jrbenny]

The duct system needs to be sized properly before it is sealed.

[binford]

Bait and switch? You discuss rebates and its not on the contract that seems strange. I guess your SOL if the contact has a check mark for duct testing and rebates and it's not marked or written down. Your only other hope would be if they did this to all there customers, but why? it's a rebate. The really odd thing is PG&E did get paper work from the contactor, which means you did quilify for a rebate, and its real odd not to take care of the customer and finish filling out the paper work that was sent in to PG&E. The CSLB is the next step after letters explaining what happend and what you what. The CSLB is just a middle man in the process, but are you leaving something out of this story, as its just odd

Edit... Could not find contactor base on name.
http://www2.cslb.ca.gov/General-Information/interactive-tools/check-a-license/Name+Request.asp

[cfb]

I've had a lot of tussles with this contractor, as described in another thread. We've basically just gotten past calling each others mothers a lot of names and moved on to less constructive activities.

In short they sold me some equipment they've never hooked up before and couldnt figure out how to make it work, had the flue hooked up backwards so it was venting CO into the house, didnt do some of the work they were supposed to do, etc. After about 7 visits to straighten out all the mess and fix all the stuff they did wrong they offered to extend my warranty for all my trouble. Then changed their minds. Then changed it back when I called the BBB. Then tried to get out of it again. Then agreed.

My contract actually says "the customer is responsible for filing all rebates with pg&e", but the salesman and I talked about that before the work was done and he said that was for the VS fan. The duct sealing thing HAS to be sent in by the contractor, they dont take submissions from a homeowner. When I called the salesman he just said "We didnt put on your contract that we were going to send in a duct sealing rebate so <more stuff about my mother>"

In this case the contractor filed in the paperwork but the rebate requires a test BEFORE they do ANY work, then another when they're done. They did a test in the middle of the work that showed a 25% loss. In the paperwork they filed, all they show is the final <10% test.

So I had >25% loss, paid money to have it reduced to <10%, and theres some evidence available in the form of the two tests done that thats so. But it doesnt fit the letter of the rebate rules, and the contractor isnt going to do anything at all to help me.

[hangfirew8]

In this case the contractor filed in the paperwork but the rebate requires a test BEFORE they do ANY work, then another when they're done. They did a test in the middle of the work that showed a 25% loss. In the paperwork they filed, all they show is the final <10% test.

So I had >25% loss, paid money to have it reduced to <10%, and theres some evidence available in the form of the two tests done that thats so. But it doesnt fit the letter of the rebate rules, and the contractor isn't going to do anything at all to help me.

So sue the contractor in small claims court. If $600 is too much for small claims, get a lawyer and sue for $600 PLUS COSTS. Besides lawyer fees, costs includes all the time you've spent getting them to do other parts of their job.

Often, just having a lawyer contact them is enough to shake some action out of them. I've noticed recalcitrant contractors with guilty consciences just dig their heels in until a lawyer gets involved. Suddenly (because they know they're wrong), they get real obliging.

-HF

[binford]

So sue the contractor in small claims court. If $600 is too much for small claims, get a lawyer and sue for $600 PLUS COSTS. Besides lawyer fees, costs includes all the time you've spent getting them to do other parts of their job.

Often, just having a lawyer contact them is enough to shake some action out of them. I've noticed recalcitrant contractors with guilty consciences just dig their heels in until a lawyer gets involved. Suddenly (because they know they're wrong), they get real obliging.

-HF

that's a big hassle and last resort!! Send the contractor a reg. letter stating you need them to re submit the required paper work as per PG&E request. A copy needs to also go to PG&E customer relation dept and you can send a copy to the distributor of the equipment if you like.. ( you did not say what the brand was) Included names of the people you contacted about resolving the issue. Be nice as you just want something.
I could not find the contractor based on the name you gave. I would call the CSLB (California State Contractors Licencing Board) and ask them for some advise. as they investigate these types of issues

[cfb]

Yeah, i'm not in a litigious mood, but I'd like my money. I'm up to my ears in alligators right now but as soon as I get some time I'll call the rebate processor and pg&e and try to become a large pain in the backside.

I didnt mention the name of the contractor...I thought that was a no-no.

Their name is @$%@# @%#$@ and #^%@#! ;)

[green jumper]

If you're having issues call pge up and raise hell like mentioned above, they don't like unhappy customers and will help you with this.

We've had issues in the beginning with enalasys when the program first started but its gotten better over time and most of the kinks have been worked out, but we use the electronic submittle units that they sell so its hard to mess up a test and not get a rebate for the customer. Plus it catches all the air flow issues in the system during the charging portion.

As far as the cost of the rebate to cover the repairs, I tell my customers upfront that the rebate covers the testing and very little covers the actual sealing, but with the test you know that the contractor did a proper job in sealing.

duct sealing can be a pain lots of furnace closets and builders used a lot of sofits for duct runs that are very leaky and hard to seal. Repair usually leads to equipment efficiency issues as noted above since ducts are undersized and leaky returns are pulling the proper air through the attic since the return grille is undersized. Every house I go to I can always recommend upgrading the return and duct repair around here nothing is installed properly, and sieves money and comfort.

Of course your contractor should be there for you and to assist as much as possible with this proccess, and not included in quote seems like a scape goat.

[cfb]

Thanks for the info green jumper. I'm going to call enalysis again tomorrow or monday when I get a chance, and then holler at pg&e if that doesnt work.