Carrier 5ton dims house lights, seems worse

[aroethli]

We have a 5ton Carrier "Performance Series" Air Conditioner(not heat pump), model number: 24APA560A300

It is about 18 months old.

When the unit starts, it really dims the lights in the house noticeably. And over the last season, it really seems like it has gotten worse, although it is possible that this is our imagination.

The specs on the label are:

208/230V
26.4 rla
134.0 lra
Minimum Circuit Amps 34.3
Max breaker 50amp

We have a 200 amp service, and have a pretty light load. The only other big draw we have is our electric dryer, which doesn't run frequently and doesn't have to coincide with the A/C startup for lights to dim, and our electric water heater.

The breaker is 50amp SquareD, and we have 6 gauge service wire to the A/C unit.

Does anyone have any thoughts on why this unit would be dimming our house lights(whole house) so noticeably, and if it is possible it could be getting worse?

One electrician friend suggested it may be a poor ground, and that a local ground rod for the A/C itself might help.

Another said I should just upgrade to a 400 amp service, but I find that hard to believe.

Any thoughts?

I can provide more info if needed.

Thanks,
Al

[Mr Bill]

Sometimes a shot of nitrous at start up will solve this problem :D but it could also be a loose connection anywhere from the Light company pole to the a/c outside condenser, or maybe a start assist is due, but I would call a service company before it gets any worse.

[aroethli]

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the reply, and we'll definitely get our electrician out to double-check the connectivity end-to-end. That's a good first step for sure, although I was hoping if there were anything obvious about my specs/setup that didn't seem correct someone might point that out :)

One question about "hard start" or "kick start" modules though, I think this Carrier may already have an OEM hard start device. It appears as though it has a relay and large capacitor attached in the compressor wiring harness, although I could be mistaken.

Do any OEM units already have "kick start" type modules already installed?

I'd hate to invest in an aftermarket unit if I've already got one.

Thanks,
Al

[Mr Bill]

Hi Bill,
Do any OEM units already have "kick start" type modules already installed?
Thanks,
Al


Yes a lot of them do, but the start assist could be bad or getting bad, a service tech can test with his meter both capacitors, the run cap and the start assist cap.

[beenthere]

You may be seeing the run cap.
You DO NOT need a 400 amp service to run a 5 ton A/C.

As Bill said, even if it has a factory start, it could be bad/weak. You need a tech to check it, and the electrical connections.
How long of a wire run is it to the A/C from the panel box.

[aroethli]

You may be seeing the run cap.
You DO NOT need a 400 amp service to run a 5 ton A/C.

As Bill said, even if it has a factory start, it could be bad/weak. You need a tech to check it, and the electrical connections.
How long of a wire run is it to the A/C from the panel box.

Thanks,

That's reassuring that I don't need a 400A service, and I really didn't think we did.

And just an aside, how much "headroom" for another system can a 200A service typically support with our 5ton already installed? I am looking at a high-velocity system heat-pump for the remaining 1500-2000 sqft of downstairs space.

The service run is probably 20-30 feet.

We had the electrical service redone when the AC was installed, so it is all new.

Al

[beenthere]

That will depend on the size of the HV. And your current total load on the panel.

[geodude]

What kind of system did you have 18 months ago before the new unit was put in?
Sometimes the transformer from the utility company may need to be upgraded or the line from the power pole/transformer to the house up sized.
Had a job recently where we put in a 16 seer 3.5 ton heat pump and had the same problem. The previous unit was an oil furnace. Had an oil furnace before and a 200 amp panel. Called an electrian out and he found that the wires from the power pole to the meter head where they where hooked in to the meter head were cooked and corroded. Fixed that and problem solved!

[firecontrol]

An 18 month old unit should still be under warranty. I'd start with calling your contractor out to have them check it out. Explain what is happening when it starts. By doing a complete checkout they should be able to verify if it's something to do with the outdoor unit or a wiring issue.

[Daltex]

I'm not an electrician but it seems to me that if the AC was the culprit, it would be tripping the 50 amp breaker. The electric co. would be where I'd start. Once it's verified that your getting proper juice through the meter then I start looking at the AC.

[allan38]

Several possible causes.
Since it's dimming the lights upon startup I'd suspect the start assist is bad.
A high resistance connection can cause this too.
And sometime you never know what the problem is until you actually put your test equipment on the unit.
I've found a unit with both a bad start assist and a dead run cap.

[aroethli]

I'm not sure on the warrantee, but I think the labor has expired. I'll have to check with my vendor Monday.

The previous unit was also a 5 ton Carrier, but it had given up the ghost after about 20 years of service. So in theory the supply from Progress Energy is good, but who knows. What are the "magic words" I should use when I call them to get them to really check out the transformer and service lines?

Thanks for all the feedback!
Al

[Shophound]

I live in an older neighborhood. When one of my neighbor's condenser starts, my house lights dim. The transformers on the pole are old and may be getting weak. Either that or that neighbor has one hell of a hard start problem.

I would first have the compressor capacitors checked. If good I would then have a stem to stern sweep of all the electrical connections performed by a competent electrician. If that checks out, the power company may want to investigate the health of their transformer and power lines.

[Malarres]

Our company has has this problem with 5 Ton HP we install in rural area's, we were losing compressor's used hard start kit's found kick starts to be the stronger of two. After mutable calls got a electric company employee let us now that the transformer's they are using will handle the inrush of power a 5 ton will pull but will have a power drop.

[aroethli]

Thanks.

Another observation, I noticed that I have 6 gauge from my main panel to the AC cutoff box(about 20-25ft run), then the whip from the cutoff box to the actual compressor is 8 gauge, which is about 30 inches long.

Is this OK and adequate for this model(see first post for specs)?

I would suspect the unit comes from Carrier with this whip and wiring as part of the kit(am I correct?), so it is likely OK, but just thought I'd mention the disparity in gauge.

I always thought 6 gauge was minimum for 50 amp, which is what the breaker is spec'd for.

Thanks,
Al

[pepster2]

Hello:
I see you have Progress Energy. I work for them in the Ocala area of Central Florida. I a different area than what you would need. Have friend at work who just last week had the same problem. His light would dim even when his freezer kicked on. Glad our boss was from the line side of our company. Had friend call and request that the line be checked to the house. His wife call and explained just what was going on. The Company checked and where the line comes to the house over the years it can become loose at the box. He said they did what ever they do and it fixed it. Our boss says it happens over time with the expanding and contracting with the heat and cold. Give them a call and just explain and ask if they can come out and check everything. My friend was impressed as they cam out in a few hours. He figured days. Wasn't because he works for company, his wife never said anything about him being a employee. Think it is best if someone is home or they might even require it when they come

[greggg1]

Are u in St.Pete area?

[pepster2]

No Citrus County. Just south of Ocala

[5 star]

Call the power company first to have your service lines and connections checked. It will be free. Then if they do not find anything, then you can call an A/C company to find the problem in the system.

[Daltex]

Call the power company first to have your service lines and connections checked. It will be free. Then if they do not find anything, then you can call an A/C company to find the problem in the system.

Hey! Your stealing my idea.:)

[aroethli]

I just got a price from Kickstart, and the 5 ton model is only about $60, so that's pretty inexpensive. I may just get one anyway while I look at the other areas such as power supply, wiring, etc. Seems like it is good insurance regardless.

But question: Does anyone know if my model, Carrier 24APA560A300, has an OEM hard start device fitted from the factory?

I don't want to buy it and find that the unit already has an OEM version installed.

If no one is sure, how can I tell?

I do know it has a large capacitor and relay, but I think that is just the run capacitor and relay to run the unit.


Al

[beenthere]

Your service tech shold know if it has one or not.



PS: Some companies will void your warranty if you install electrical devices on them.
Check with your installing company.

[teeball57]

:) May I suggest a relay and start capacitor recommended by the compressor manufacturer.

[dash]

I just got a price from Kickstart, and the 5 ton model is only about $60, so that's pretty inexpensive. I may just get one anyway while I look at the other areas such as power supply, wiring, etc. Seems like it is good insurance regardless.

But question: Does anyone know if my model, Carrier 24APA560A300, has an OEM hard start device fitted from the factory?

I don't want to buy it and find that the unit already has an OEM version installed.

If no one is sure, how can I tell?

I do know it has a large capacitor and relay, but I think that is just the run capacitor and relay to run the unit.


Al

Both types of start assist are listed as accessories,for that model.

Of course you never know when that could have changed.

[crzymtrbiker]

If you seriously are looking at a hardstart kit you are in trouble. I Generally see the unit running 1 year or so after needing a hard start kit. Look at the capacitor and def. have the like the other guys said have your electrical looked at! It sounds like your compressor may be overamping! PLEASE RELY ON A TECHNICIAN WHO CAN SEE IT!

[aroethli]

Well, we just had Progress energy out, and they checked out the transformer and service leads, and all looked OK.

However, he said he saw a draw of 230 amps, and we have a 200 amp service. So he suggested we need to upgrade to 400 amps, since our "house was so large". I find that hard to believe though as half our rooms are unoccupied, we have CFLs everwhere, only one television(a 27") that isn't on all the time, a couple computers, a frige, and electric water heater. That's about it. We have an electric clothes dryer, but it of course isn't on all the time, and we have a gas range.

I've lived in a number of homes with many more electric appliances such as dishwasher(we don't have one), multiple TVs, pool equipment, etc, and their service was 200 amp or less without problem.

Although on the other hand, I just went to an online calculator and put in an estimate of all the electric devices we have, and it comes close to 190 amp if they all are running on average. So I don't know....

The Progress Energy guy is supposed to call me in the coming day or so to chat about what he observed. And we'll see then.

I just can't see that we need 400 amp. But maybe I'm wrong.

Al

[Daltex]

I'm glad you called the elect. co. first. Now you can focus on what, if anything is drawing an extra load. You can call out an electrician and let him load test the major appliances to see if anything is out of wack. You could try trial and error and flip off the breaker for various appliances (water heater, dryer etc.) and see if you can fire up the AC w/o the light dimming but I'd leave it to an electrician and his expertise.

Do you have past AC bill stubs to compair kwh usage over past 2 years?

My guess is the AC unit just took it over the level and you'll be upgrading the panel.

[beenthere]

If your running an amp draw of 190. You have a heck of a big electric bill.
A 200 amp service is good for a continous load of 38.4 KWH per hour.

[sammy37]

You dont have a draw of 230 amps, I even doubt 190. Beenthere is correct, you would have one heck of a bill. I've seen houses with 2 a/c units, pool pumps etc, with only 200 amp service. Unless your running something around there that you shouldnt be, 200 amps is more than enough.

[aroethli]

That's what I was thinking, that I'd have a TREMENDOUS electric bill if we were even on average(much less consistently) approaching 200 amps.

We did have some $400 electric bills last summer at the height of the heat wave(Aug/Sep) when we had to leave a bunch of windows open as we just had the house painted.

But our normal bill is around $100-150.

Something isn't jiving....

Al

[beenthere]

A hard start may be all that you need.

[aroethli]

From Progress Energy, our electricity usage in Kwh, over the last few months:

5/2/2008 982
4/2/2008 1,118
3/4/2008 1,059
2/4/2008 1,343
1/3/2008 1,328
12/4/2007 1,034
11/2/2007 1,238
10/2/2007 1,958
9/5/2007 2,659
8/2/2007 1,837
7/3/2007 1,845
6/4/2007 1,388
5/2/2007 1,268
4/3/2007 1,354
3/2/2007 2,039
2/2/2007 2,011
1/3/2007 1,747


Note that in September we peaked due to the aforementioned house painting, were we had windows cracked open for weeks. This is not typical.

Does this look like consistent 200 amp usage?

Al

[Hartmizle]

model 24APA560A300 comes with a 5 year part 10 year comp. warranty. if im not mistaken 90 day labor only.


A hardstart does NOT come standard with this unit

[aroethli]

model 24APA560A300 comes with a 5 year part 10 year comp. warranty. if im not mistaken 90 day labor only.


A hardstart does NOT come standard with this unit


Thank you very much for that clarification.

Do you know(or can easily describe) what I should look for to see if my unit is fitted with a hardstart component.

I'll call my installer anyway, but would like to be prepared.

Thanks,
Al

[beenthere]

No, if you were drawing 200 amps on any long regular periods. You would have much higher readings.
Your sept usage would only take alittle over 55 hours at a 200 amp draw on 240 volt.

[pantera10]

If all else checks out and problem persists, try a soft start kit. Solved my issues with same situation.

[stevensondrive]

Yes a lot of them do, but the start assist could be bad or getting bad, a service tech can test with his meter both capacitors, the run cap and the start assist cap.

agreed. the hard start kit is where I would look first. cheap fix. :)

[aroethli]

Question: Does a hard start kit hurt the compressor?

The reason I ask is that I've seen several comments to the effect that after installing a hard start kit, it'll probably only have a year or so of life left.

I've interpreted this as meaning that the compressor, needing a hard start, was already failing and the hard start only prolonged its life by only a year or so.

I didn't interpret it as meaning the hard start itself harmed the compressor.

Is my interpretation correct?

Thanks,
Al

[beenthere]

The wrong kit can.
Many times, its just too late to for the compressor. It was going to die anyway. But the hard start kit bought it another year or 2, but gets blamed.

[aroethli]

Well, as I mentioned, I had Progress Energy out to the house last week(Wed May 21st) and the technician told my wife(I wasn't there) that we needed to upgrade our service to 400amp, we were pulling over 200amp, etc... which upon hearing this I thought was impossible.

The technician was supposed to call me back to explain what he saw, etc, but even though I called every day to update the case(that I hadn't received a call back), I never did receive one... until yesterday.

Apparently my multiple calls got the ticket/work-order escalated, and a more senior tech took a look at our complaint(voltage drops, A/C light dimming) and dispatched another technician to the house to do a little more investigative work.

What he found was that we had a very old transformer, 25KVA, that was supporting three houses, two of which were larger homes. And knowing that at least with mine alone having the 5ton AC installed, his modeling software showed that the transformer was undersized for the load. Further he found that my supply lines were undersized, and should have been upgraded when the house went to 200amp in the early 1990s(before we owned the house).

So, he is dispatching an order to put in a 50KVA transformer and put in one size heavier supply lines to the house.

We'll see if that fixes the problem, but it certainly can't hurt.

If the A/C still dims the lights significantly after this, at least we can eliminate the residential power as the problem.

I'll let you know what we observe. It'll be a week or two before the work is done I suspect.

Al

[sammy37]

I dont recall you mentioning that the service in your house was upgraded to a higher a higher amperage in your earlier posts. Since the panel was upgraded years ago, but the line to the house wasnt, that would explain alot of your problem. And yes, upgrading to a bigger transformer will also make a difference.:)

[tech55]

Your lights dime because the neutral at your main panal is loose. 200 amp service is more than enough for your house;even if you put two or three ac's. If you were under service your main breaker would have tripped. Breakers are install to protect your wires first and to have a safe means to disconect power to a device. The reason a disconect is intall near your ac is so that the tech can disconect power to ac without going to the panel, safety for tech.

[beenthere]

Although a loose nutreal could cause it.
A 25KVA transformer is a little light to run 3-5 ton A/C's, plus all the other devices those 3 houses would use under normal day to day needs.

[sammy37]

Your lights dime because the neutral at your main panal is loose. 200 amp service is more than enough for your house;even if you put two or three ac's. If you were under service your main breaker would have tripped. Breakers are install to protect your wires first and to have a safe means to disconect power to a device. The reason a disconect is intall near your ac is so that the tech can disconect power to ac without going to the panel, safety for tech.

Yes, 200 amps is more than enough, but if you read on, their service was upgraded but the wire to the house is still undersized from the old service. Plus, the transformer is too small.

[kevinmac]

Does your neighbors lights dim when their AC starts? If not then the transformer may not be the culprit, because I doubt that at any one point you are drawing 200amps. I would still check the wires at the CB panel going into the breakers themselves. They loosen up and cause a heater curcuit, causing high resistance causing more current flow, not to mention a potential fire hazard. Don't overlook it!

[aroethli]

Well, today we had the transformer changed out to a 50KVA unit and new heavier gauge lines run from it to the weather head leads. But we're still seeing the dimming, although it does seem to be just a little diminished. It is definitely "faster" and less prolonged than before.

We'll have our electrician out next to check the wiring from the weather head to the cutoff panel.


I guess one thing that still isn't clear to me even though I was asking: If there is really nothing wrong or worn-out about the compressor, will a hard-start kit help with this problem?

Also, beyond reducing the "hard start" issue of light dimming, is a properly fitted(such as an OEM part) hard start kit a benefit in any way in this scenario such as prolonging the life of the compressor, or conversely is there any detriment to fitting a hard start kit in this scenario(relative new unit that isn't necessarily malfunctioning or worn out)?

I'll have the A/C guys out from Carrier after the electrician anyway, but I just want to understand the implications of these kits when I talk with them.

Thanks again for all the feedback,
Al

[forcryinoutloud]

Our local power company requires us to install a hard start kit on any system larger than 3 tons to be eligable for their heat pump rebates regardless of type of compressor.

We had a recent install of a 3 ton system with a scroll compressor that would dim the lights at start up. Installed the hard start kit, and it solved the problem. It worked in this case, but may not work in all.

[tonydykes55]

this may be a longshot, but for what its worth i've seen electrical panel that weren't properly balanced - most of the load was on one phase. This is easily checked with an amprobe on the feeders. Cut everything on and check the load on each leg. Probably not the main problem but may be worth checking.

[aroethli]

Thanks, I'll add checking the load on the legs to the general checkup I get from the electrician.


With regard to the Carrier folks, along with asking about a hard-start kit(i.e. does my unit have one already, do they have an OEM part, etc)... are there any other magic questions or suggestions I should mention to them that they might consider or check into?

I'm just making a "list" :)

The lights just dimmed again, but it is definite less intense and a shorter duration. So I think the new transformer/lines has helped some. I'm sure like many things, our experience is a combination of problems exacerbating each other.


Thanks,
Al

[beenthere]

I've moved teh breaker for the A/C from the lower portion of the panel box to the top, and dimmished it or stopped it. Others a hard start lit was needed.

Your electrician should know the easier way to check for imbalance then reading each circuit. That takes too long if its not imbalanced.
No panel box is perfectly balanced, its not possible.

Carrier should have a factory hard start kit for that unit.

[aroethli]

Thanks again, I'll mention that(moving the breaker) but I think my feed comes into the bottom of my panel, were all my 220 and high amp breakers already are.

Cheers,
Al

[kevinmac]

I still say check the panel as I have mentioned above!

[beenthere]

The condenser breaker mounted where ever is closer to the main breaker.

[Daltex]

Make sure to protect your electronics like computer and tv with a UPS until it's fixed. The current fluxuation can damage these.

I was thinking it was the transformer. At least your assured good power to the meter now. Did anyone answer the question regarding the pros and cons of the hard start?

[aroethli]

Make sure to protect your electronics like computer and tv with a UPS until it's fixed. The current fluxuation can damage these.

I was thinking it was the transformer. At least your assured good power to the meter now. Did anyone answer the question regarding the pros and cons of the hard start?

Yep, I'm in the IT field, so UPS's are de rigeur ;) I've got them on all computer, networking, and TV equipment.

We were pretty sure something was up with the main power as we've had voltage dips ever since we moved in about 18 months ago, and our UPS's trip a couple times a week, especially in the Summer :( So the transformer issue wasn't a big surprise. I'm glad we identified that and got some action from Progress via this investigation. They seem aware that these old neighborhoods are seeing increased load on the old undersized/worn-out infrastructure as folks fix up these old houses.


As far as the pros/cons of the hard-start, no, no one has put it in one succint reply :rolleyes:


Basically what I am hearing is, there really isn't a downside other than the cost of installing a hard start kit(or fitting the wrong type which can cause damage). If the compressor is new and not really exhibiting any problems other than a hard start induced by its sheer capacity, the hard start will help reduce the hard start condition and may even extend the compressor's life.

Does this seem right?

If so, I'll likely just have Carrier install a hard-start kit regardless. But I still want them to check out the whole unit first, start capacitor/relay, etc to make sure we don't mask another problem.


I'm just trying to compile a "punch list" for them to check when I call them out. Any help with boiling down this 5 page thread to an itemized list is much appreciated!

So far I have:

1) Check wiring from cutoff panel to compressor
2) Check run start capacitor and relay for proper spec
3) Check to see if existing hard-start kit, and check for proper operation

....?

I also need to add in a few line items with regard to this thread for them to check, so feel free to interject any thoughts on that issue to the list as well:

http://www.hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=172658


Thanks,
Al