Decide For Yourself

[trane]

http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/video.aspx?RsrcID=2036

[justinhvac]

I don't support Obama, but I think his religion, past or present, is not a big deal.

So what if he has an Islamic name and went to an Islamic school that wasn't even in the Middle East? Even if he was Muslim, does it matter? If I'm not mistaken, Islam is becoming extremely popular with black people around the world. It's not the same as electing an extremist Muslim from the Middle East. Islam isn’t all that different, you would even recognize a lot of people and stories (like Jesus, Mary, Moses, etc).

The customs and interpretations differ vastly within Islam as well. Are all Christian religions the same? You can go to two churches that read the same Bible and get two different interpretations.

And that controversial church he was attending is a very popular church. It isn't a surprise that he would pick a church that is popular with the black community, whether he agreed with it or not. I personally don't care what any candidate's religion is, what church they attend, etc. Religion and politics don't mix. It is Obama I disagree with, not his religion or his priest/minister/whatever.

[trane]

I don't support Obama, but I think his religion, past or present, is not a big deal.

So what if he has an Islamic name and went to an Islamic school that wasn't even in the Middle East? Even if he was Muslim, does it matter? If I'm not mistaken, Islam is becoming extremely popular with black people around the world. It's not the same as electing an extremist Muslim from the Middle East. Islam isn’t all that different, you would even recognize a lot of people and stories (like Jesus, Mary, Moses, etc).

The customs and interpretations differ vastly within Islam as well. Are all Christian religions the same? You can go to two churches that read the same Bible and get two different interpretations.

And that controversial church he was attending is a very popular church. It isn't a surprise that he would pick a church that is popular with the black community, whether he agreed with it or not. I personally don't care what any candidate's religion is, what church they attend, etc. Religion and politics don't mix. It is Obama I disagree with, not his religion or his priest/minister/whatever.

So picking something even if you don't believe in it would be something desired in our future leader? I kind of think the whole package should be considered but like I said, decide for yourself.

[justinhvac]

So picking something even if you don't believe in it would be something desired in our future leader? I kind of think the whole package should be considered but like I said, decide for yourself.

I get what you're saying.

But a lot of African-Americans join afrocentric churchs, groups, etc. Same with other minorities. Culture is important to them, as it should be.

Obama has said he does not agree with everything his Church says or endorses, same with his pastor. His pastor is crazy, but that doesn't mean Obama is. Whether Obama is a racist... or just thinks that the Black culture is very important, should be protected, and Africa should be helped... is up to you to decide. You can't just go by several sources that make him look bad.

If I'm not mistaken, his church / pastor broke the law when they endorsed Obama... churches can't endorse a candidate, even indirectly.

What a candidate's religious beliefs are outside the office does not matter to me. If it matters to you, that is fine. We have the freedom to choose. Like I said, I dislike Obama for other reasons. He makes himself look bad enough, just like most other liberals ;)

Maybe I just feel that way because I'm not very religious. I could see it mattering a lot more to a very religious person.

[mrs reb77]

I'm not a 'very religious person' but, I personally feel Obama has been a major hypocrite concerning Rev. Wright. He has lied (documented) concerning hearing or knowing about the sermons in question. He used the Church when it suited him to distance himself from his muslim/islamic background. His own website stated that Rev. Wright was his 'spiritual mentor', his book, "Audacity of Hope" was named from a Rev. Wright sermon, Rev. Wright was part of his campaign staff--it just goes on and on, until the truth comes out about Rev. Wright. Then, Obama makes a speech, throws granny 'under the bus' but keeps the Rev. in the family. Most recently the Rev. goes all 'native' making us aware that his comments weren't taken out of context, we all heard exactly what he really meant and NOW, Obama 'disowns' him.
Yeah.
Originally we're told that Obama has been a member of this church for 20 years and that the Rev. Wright 'brought Christianity' to him. Now, NOW, we're told well, it wasn't quite that long and he wasn't aware of these types of sermons....etc...

Snow job. Pure and Simple. Rev. Wright most probably HAD it right when he stated that what Obama is saying now is purely politics and he has to say it.

And, it is not illegal for a church to promote a politician.

[justinhvac]

And, it is not illegal for a church to promote a politician.

Illegal might be the wrong word.

Churches violate their tax-exempt status by promoting a candidate and engauging in politics.

The IRS letter to Obama's church:
http://www.ucc.org/news/pdf/lettrirs.pdf?loc=interstitialskip

And maybe I just haven't read up enough on Obama and the religion thing. I just didn't like his idea's and plan (or lack of one), so I haven't been following him much.

[glennac]

And, it is not illegal for a church to promote a politician.

True but if and when they ever donate money to him then they could lose their tax exempt status as a charitable or religious institution.

[k-fridge]

Illegal might be the wrong word.

Churches violate their tax-exempt status by promoting a candidate and engauging in politics.

The IRS letter to Obama's church:
http://www.ucc.org/news/pdf/lettrirs.pdf?loc=interstitialskip
Engaging in politics does not violate their tax-exempt status. Endorsing a candidate or party could though.

[justinhvac]

Engaging in politics does not violate their tax-exempt status. Endorsing a candidate or party could though.

I thought they couldn't really get involved, endorse, donate money, pretty much anything with politics. You could be right. It's probably just endorsing and donating then.

Obama's church did endorse him I thought, which is why they may lose their tax exempt status.

[k-fridge]

I thought they couldn't really get involved, endorse, donate money, pretty much anything with politics. You could be right. It's probably just endorsing and donating then.

Obama's church did endorse him I thought, which is why they may lose their tax exempt status.
Churches can take a position of issues, hand out voters guides that show candidate's positions, even lobby; they just have to stop short of giving money or endorsing a candidate.

It can be a fine line though.

[justinhvac]

Churches can take a position of issues, hand out voters guides that show candidate's positions, even lobby; they just have to stop short of giving money or endorsing a candidate.

It can be a fine line though.

Thanks for clearing that up. Wasn't too sure about what was allowed.

[bootlen]

Justin, maybe you are not aware of Islamic agenda. You are either Islam or you are dead.

They are NOT a religion of peace but of coerciveness.

Do a little study on Islam. Read the Quran. And for God's sake come to understand the video posted by the OP.

[justinhvac]

Ok I was wrong about Obama and his church. It is worse than I thought. I honestly didn't pay much attention to news about him. I didn't like him before this, and pretty much anything new about him I just glance over. I'm not hardcore into politics.


Justin, maybe you are not aware of Islamic agenda. You are either Islam or you are dead.

They are NOT a religion of peace but of coerciveness.

Do a little study on Islam. Read the Quran. And for God's sake come to understand the video posted by the OP.

lol. So you think all Muslims believe in violent Jihads? There are followers who believe it is a religion of peace, and followers who believe it is a religion of war/violence. Are all branches of Christianity the same? You can claim Christianity is a religion of war as well if you look at history, certain people, certain hatred groups, etc. To make a prejudice statement about an entire group is wrong.

I'm sure you will go on hating and believe whatever you want anyway.

I have read the Koran. And I have read the Bible. I believe in neither. And that video does not matter to me... no matter what he did / will do, there will be videos making him look bad and reasons to hate him. And not just because he is a crappy candidate.

[BigJon3475]

That was funny......what's sad is people still seem to be following the words he speaks and not his actions...I thought everyone already knew you can't listen to politicians.....you can only watch their actions.

[trane]

If you are African American your biggest concern with him is his religion past and present. Its also one of my biggest concerns and I can only hope we are not stupid enough to help this guy get elected.

I have no idea how any white person could vote for him knowing that his church believes we created HIV to harm the blacks and basically are the cause of all their problems. I am not saying all believe this but if you go to a church and are told this over and over and still don't leave its sure hard for me to believe that he thinks otherwise. He may say different now but before the need to distance himself for his own best interest in getting elected he was a regular member.

Had anyone ever heard of him before the decision to run?

[bootlen]

[QUOTE=justinhvac;1855950]
lol. So you think all Muslims believe in violent Jihads? There are followers who believe it is a religion of peace, and followers who believe it is a religion of war/violence.

Islam is made up of 2 houses, both sanctioned by Islam. The dangerous one is the house of war. And if you have indeed read the Koran, you know that Muslims are not to be trusted further than you can pee up a rope.

Are all branches of Christianity the same? You can claim Christianity is a religion of war as well if you look at history, certain people, certain hatred groups, etc. To make a prejudice statement about an entire group is wrong.

Can you show me in Scripture where Christians are told to lie? Or told to murder the innocent? Or to steal? Don't bother looking. It ain't there.

I'm sure you will go on hating and believe whatever you want anyway.

Actually, I will believe what I do NOT want to believe...that man is not to be trusted, and particularly the largest religion in the world is not to be trusted. And this by virtue of their own teachings.

I have read the Koran. And I have read the Bible. I believe in neither. And that video does not matter to me... no matter what he did / will do, there will be videos making him look bad and reasons to hate him. And not just because he is a crappy candidate.

See? It is YOU who will go on believing what you want.

[BigJon3475]

Distorting their truth is not bad at all as long as your muslim and your underlining meaning is at hand.

Should fit right in with the other politicians.

[mrs reb77]

Had anyone ever heard of him before the decision to run?

The Democrats trotted him out as the next best thing back in the 2004 National Convention as a keynote speaker. Here in Missouri we had heard of him but most likely only because we get tv stations from Illinois and the St. Louis tv stations carry a lot of Illinois news.

If memory serves, when he was elected to the U.S. Senate he stated he had no intention of running for POTUS in 2008. Typical politician.

[justinhvac]

lol. So you think all Muslims believe in violent Jihads? There are followers who believe it is a religion of peace, and followers who believe it is a religion of war/violence.

Islam is made up of 2 houses, both sanctioned by Islam. The dangerous one is the house of war. And if you have indeed read the Koran, you know that Muslims are not to be trusted further than you can pee up a rope.

First, there are more than 2 branches of Islam (although the others are a extremely small minority). But, there are divisions within those 2 branches. There are competing groups within those divisions, who do not all agree. You act like all Muslims are the same. There are many differences between Muslims worldwide. There is much more to it than just "2 houses".


Are all branches of Christianity the same? You can claim Christianity is a religion of war as well if you look at history, certain people, certain hatred groups, etc. To make a prejudice statement about an entire group is wrong.

Can you show me in Scripture where Christians are told to lie? Or told to murder the innocent? Or to steal? Don't bother looking. It ain't there.

Did you not read what I said? Look at the actions of Christians. I don't care what your Bible says, people have done horrible things in the name of Christianity. To call all Christians evil based on those actions would be wrong.

Second, the Koran does not tell you to do those evil things. It tells you to live peacefully and that murder is wrong. Just because a large group of people in the Middle East interpret the Koran to tell them that all disbelievers must be killed and other violent things, does not mean there is anything wrong with the Koran. It is their actions, not their religion, that makes them bad people.

There are believers of peace within Islam, and they get their beliefs from the same book. They think killing anyone is wrong, and that the Koran tells them killing a person is the same as killing all of humanity. The Koran tells them how to live a good, moral, and peaceful life. It tells them that killing is wrong. Disbelieving is bad, but they would be against attacking disbelievers. Self-defense when attacked is ok. Invading other countries, suicide bombing, genocide, and flying planes into building is not okay to them, and their religion would be very against those things.

People interpret things in many different ways. By quoting certain parts of the bible you can make it look like Christianity supports slavery. If you look at the Bible from a different perspective, look at the true meanings of the words... it does not look like slavery is ok.

And look at this from the Bible:

Exodus - 32
32:27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor.

32:28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.


Samuel - 15
15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

That looks pretty violent and wrong to me. If I read a few lines, does that mean the Bible says it’s ok to kill not just men, but also women and children? That would be pretty stupid of me.

I think you either approached the Koran already hating it, or you just read certain sections / lines. You could probably group together a bunch of lines from the Bible, show it to someone who never read it, and they would say Christians are horrible people. The same can be done with the Koran.



I'm sure you will go on hating and believe whatever you want anyway.

Actually, I will believe what I do NOT want to believe...that man is not to be trusted, and particularly the largest religion in the world is not to be trusted. And this by virtue of their own teachings.

You believe what you do because you are scared, and afraid to admit something different is ok.

If you want to not trust the violent Muslims who think violent interpretations, that is fine and I would even agree with you. They hate us anyway because we are disbelievers, which to them, is worse than murder. But to say that something is wrong with all Muslims and the Islam religion, is just proving your own hatred and ignorance.

[bootlen]

[QUOTE=justinhvac;1856943]
First, there are more than 2 branches of Islam (although the others are a extremely small minority). But, there are divisions within those 2 branches. There are competing groups within those divisions, who do not all agree. You act like all Muslims are the same. There are many differences between Muslims worldwide. There is much more to it than just "2 houses".

I am not talking about branches or divisions or sects. I am talking about "houses"...as in separate "departments" of a given agency. All practicing Muslims are aware and approve of the "house of war".

Did you not read what I said?

Yep.

Look at the actions of Christians. I don't care what your Bible says, people have done horrible things in the name of Christianity. To call all Christians evil based on those actions would be wrong.

Very few Christians approve of actions performed by anyone in the name of Christianity that are in disagreement with Scripture. As a matter of fact, most Christians would denounce those actions. I don't see the majority of Muslims denouncing the actions of the 9-11 terrorists. And even if they did, the Koran says that Muslims should lie to non-Muslims in order to reach an objective (surely you remember reading that when you read the koran). They are not to be trusted by their own doctrine.

Second, the Koran does not tell you to do those evil things.

Better read it again...this time with comprehension.

It tells you to live peacefully and that murder is wrong.

With other Muslims. But it seems they cannot even live up to their own doctrine.

Just because a large group of people in the Middle East interpret the Koran to tell them that all disbelievers must be killed and other violent things, does not mean there is anything wrong with the Koran.

Unless they are quoting the Koran's teachings...which they do.

It is their actions, not their religion, that makes them bad people.

Agreed. But when their actions are manifestations of their religion, what then?

There are believers of peace within Islam, and they get their beliefs from the same book. They think killing anyone is wrong, and that the Koran tells them killing a person is the same as killing all of humanity. The Koran tells them how to live a good, moral, and peaceful life. It tells them that killing is wrong. Disbelieving is bad, but they would be against attacking disbelievers. Self-defense when attacked is ok. Invading other countries, suicide bombing, genocide, and flying planes into building is not okay to them, and their religion would be very against those things.

Ya gotta read the whole thing, justin. Text without context is pretext.

People interpret things in many different ways. By quoting certain parts of the bible you can make it look like Christianity supports slavery.

Nope. If you read with comprehension and in context, you cannot infer that slavery is OK in Scriptrure.

If you look at the Bible from a different perspective, look at the true meanings of the words... it does not look like slavery is ok.

Yeah. It looks like slavery is wrong.

And look at this from the Bible:

That looks pretty violent and wrong to me. If I read a few lines, does that mean the Bible says it’s ok to kill not just men, but also women and children? That would be pretty stupid of me.

Been down this road and it is a long one. Bottom line is that God was NOT talking to Christians. There was no such thing at the time. He was talking to the Jews and what He was doing was ensuring a strong lineage for the Promised Messiah. Had He not done this, the Jews would have become a pagan group through which the Promise could not be kept. (Remember Abraham? Maybe not. Go read the Bible again...also with comprehension this time.)

I think you either approached the Koran already hating it, or you just read certain sections / lines. You could probably group together a bunch of lines from the Bible, show it to someone who never read it, and they would say Christians are horrible people. The same can be done with the Koran.

Nope. No more than I "already hated" Moby Dick or The Problem of Pain. The Koran, when fully read and understood in context is good ONLY for Muslims and ONLY for this side of eternity.

You believe what you do because you are scared, and afraid to admit something different is ok.

Scared? Of what, pray tell. You think Muslims scare me? No, Muslims don't. Their doctrine scares me, though. And if I could single-handedly eradicate Muslim teaching, I would, for the reasons already stated.

If you want to not trust the violent Muslims who think violent interpretations, that is fine and I would even agree with you. They hate us anyway because we are disbelievers, which to them, is worse than murder. But to say that something is wrong with all Muslims and the Islam religion, is just proving your own hatred and ignorance.

Actually, what it proves is I have a better understanding of Islam than you do.

[sysint]

Psalms 137: 7 Remember, O LORD, what the Edomites did on the day Jerusalem fell. "Tear it down," they cried, "tear it down to its foundations!"

8 O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us-9 he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.

--Justin- just ask boot how many went into the Ark. He contends 10 right now..... that's just the start of it with him. However, he will tell you that you are the one with comprehension problems all day long but oftentimes he doesn't make it past a single reasoning point in one post.

http://www.airwarvietnam.com/16thSOSGunners2 -- Jesus died rather than fight. His kingdom was not of this world. He instructed his disciples to do the same. Most Christians participate in war contrary to the scriptures. Some weakly argue about the Roman Centurion becoming a Christian, but nothing is stated as to whether or not he continued that occupation after baptism. I guess you actually have to trust God enough not to fight.

[bootlen]

Psalms 137: 7 Remember, O LORD, what the Edomites did on the day Jerusalem fell. "Tear it down," they cried, "tear it down to its foundations!"

8 O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us-9 he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.

--Justin- just ask boot how many went into the Ark. He contends 10 right now..... that's just the start of it with him. However, he will tell you that you are the one with comprehension problems all day long but oftentimes he doesn't make it past a single reasoning point in one post.

http://www.airwarvietnam.com/16thSOSGunners2 -- Jesus died rather than fight. His kingdom was not of this world. He instructed his disciples to do the same. Most Christians participate in war contrary to the scriptures. Some weakly argue about the Roman Centurion becoming a Christian, but nothing is stated as to whether or not he continued that occupation after baptism. I guess you actually have to trust God enough not to fight.

Another post from someone who neither knows Scripture nor realizes when someone admits a mistake.

[justinhvac]

Second, the Koran does not tell you to do those evil things.

Better read it again...this time with comprehension.

Where does it say these things?

So pretty much every Muslim who is a believer of peace is wrong? You should go let them know that their faith and beliefs are incorrect.

It tells you to live peacefully and that murder is wrong.

With other Muslims. But it seems they cannot even live up to their own doctrine.

Again, not all Muslims believe what you are saying.

Just because a large group of people in the Middle East interpret the Koran to tell them that all disbelievers must be killed and other violent things, does not mean there is anything wrong with the Koran.

Unless they are quoting the Koran's teachings...which they do.

And believers of peace quote the Koran as well.

It is their actions, not their religion, that makes them bad people.

Agreed. But when their actions are manifestations of their religion, what then?

And when people act badly in the name of Christianity, what then? Are they wrong or is Christianity wrong?

People interpret things in many different ways. By quoting certain parts of the bible you can make it look like Christianity supports slavery.

Nope. If you read with comprehension and in context, you cannot infer that slavery is OK in Scriptrure.

I'm not saying that the Bible says slavery is ok. There are people who think that though. It is your opinion / belief.

And look at this from the Bible:

That looks pretty violent and wrong to me. If I read a few lines, does that mean the Bible says it’s ok to kill not just men, but also women and children? That would be pretty stupid of me.

Been down this road and it is a long one. Bottom line is that God was NOT talking to Christians. There was no such thing at the time. He was talking to the Jews and what He was doing was ensuring a strong lineage for the Promised Messiah. Had He not done this, the Jews would have become a pagan group through which the Promise could not be kept. (Remember Abraham? Maybe not. Go read the Bible again...also with comprehension this time.)

Again, I do not think the Bible is saying violence and killing is ok. Why do you think I said it would be stupid of me to think that? Because obviously the Bible does not mean that (talk about comprehension). But again, there are people who missinterpret many parts of the Bible. I understand the Bible and you do not have to explain it to me. Just because I don't believe in the Bible, doesn't mean I don't understand it.

You believe what you do because you are scared, and afraid to admit something different is ok.

Scared? Of what, pray tell. You think Muslims scare me? No, Muslims don't. Their doctrine scares me, though. And if I could single-handedly eradicate Muslim teaching, I would, for the reasons already stated.

Showing your true side there. It is pretty clear what you are. There is no point in trying to argue with you. You will always hold those beliefs no matter what anyone tells you.

What other races, religons, and groups would you like to "eradicate"? If you think Obama is Un-American, look at how you think.

If you want to not trust the violent Muslims who think violent interpretations, that is fine and I would even agree with you. They hate us anyway because we are disbelievers, which to them, is worse than murder. But to say that something is wrong with all Muslims and the Islam religion, is just proving your own hatred and ignorance.

Actually, what it proves is I have a better understanding of Islam than you do.

That is quite funny. Why don't you go tell these things to an American educated Muslim and see what they say to you. Speaking of which, don't you find it a bit odd that a lot of the violent Muslims live in uneducated 3rd World Countries?

And don't you find it even more odd that you interpret the Koran the same way as people who flew planes into the WTC?

If the majority of Christians believed something different than you, small or big, bad or good, would you change your beliefs just because the majority believes it? I would hope not, otherwise your faith is pretty weak.

I give up. You are right. Every Muslim who believes that the Koran is a book of peace is obviously wrong and should start killing innocent people in the name of Allah. They really need to learn to read. Happy now?

[bootlen]

Justin, I don't know why you keep referring to people. I am referring to the doctrine of Islam and the doctrine of Christianity.

Read my posts. My focus is not on the believers of the 2 religions but on the doctrine.

I happen to believe what Scripture says. My enemy is not of flesh and bone but spiritual in nature. Islam has its roots in evil. Its leader was a child molester, an instigator of murder, and anti-semitic. All of those things are anti-Christianity.

And I will tell you this. When evil manifests itself in fleshly deeds, we are called by God to eradicate the perpetrators. Sys piped in about a hill I'm sure he does not want to die on. I recommend you not make yourself look unread by going there yourself. I might refer you to Mt. 10:34, Lk. 22:36, and Rom. 13:4 along with surrounding verses.

[justinhvac]

I am also refering to the doctrine of Islam. Get it into your head that not everyone thinks the same thing as you when they read the Koran. I don't know why you refuse to accept more than one interpretation. What makes you more right than someone else who believes it?

[bootlen]

I am also refering to the doctrine of Islam. Get it into your head that not everyone thinks the same thing as you when they read the Koran.

Really?

"So pretty much every Muslim who is a believer of peace is wrong? You should go let them know that their faith and beliefs are incorrect."


"Again, not all Muslims believe what you are saying."


"And believers of peace quote the Koran as well."


"And when people act badly in the name of Christianity, what then? Are they wrong or is Christianity wrong?"



"I'm not saying that the Bible says slavery is ok. There are people who think that though. It is your opinion / belief."


"Again, I do not think the Bible is saying violence and killing is ok. Why do you think I said it would be stupid of me to think that? Because obviously the Bible does not mean that (talk about comprehension). But again, there are people who missinterpret many parts of the Bible. I understand the Bible and you do not have to explain it to me. Just because I don't believe in the Bible, doesn't mean I don't understand it."


"Showing your true side there. It is pretty clear what you are. There is no point in trying to argue with you. You will always hold those beliefs no matter what anyone tells you.

"What other races, religons, and groups would you like to "eradicate"? If you think Obama is Un-American, look at how you think."


"That is quite funny. Why don't you go tell these things to an American educated Muslim and see what they say to you. Speaking of which, don't you find it a bit odd that a lot of the violent Muslims live in uneducated 3rd World Countries?

"And don't you find it even more odd that you interpret the Koran the same way as people who flew planes into the WTC?

"If the majority of Christians believed something different than you, small or big, bad or good, would you change your beliefs just because the majority believes it? I would hope not, otherwise your faith is pretty weak.

"I give up. You are right. Every Muslim who believes that the Koran is a book of peace is obviously wrong and should start killing innocent people in the name of Allah. They really need to learn to read. Happy now?"


The bold above is the entirety of your post. Every single paragraph refers to people...not doctrine or ism.

[justinhvac]

The bold above is the entirety of your post. Every single paragraph refers to people...not doctrine or ism.

Where do they get their beliefs from? The Koran. The Koran is a book of peace and you cannot prove otherwise.

[bootlen]

Where do they get their beliefs from? The Koran. The Koran is a book of peace and you cannot prove otherwise.

Well, justin, go right ahead and believe that. Apparently you are seeking blissfulness.

[justinhvac]

Well, justin, go right ahead and believe that. Apparently you are seeking blissfulness.

No, I can just read for myself. And in doing so I found the Koran to be a peaceful book. If you take the book as a whole and actually understood it, you would see the same. The same goes for the Bible.

It is the violent Muslims who take certain parts of the Koran but ignore others. If they just took the time to understand it, they would see there is a better way to achieve happiness.

[bootlen]

And if you read my posts, you will see that I would see the doctrine eradicated, not the people. What'd ya do...just gloss over that part?

"And if I could single-handedly eradicate Muslim teaching, I would..."

Now go read the Koran again(?) and if you see nothing wrong with Muslim teaching, you are in dire need of help.

[justinhvac]

I was also talking about the Koran, not the people. It is not so easy, as people disagree on what the Koran actually means.

Perhaps I was not clear. When you said the Koran promotes evil, violence, etc… I should have said then:
Are you saying that the Muslims who are followers of peace that base their religious beliefs on their interpretation of the Koran as a book of peace, are all wrong, and should instead interpret it as a book of war as you and the terrorists do? I'm guessing you think all those people are wrong in their interpretation of the Koran.


"And if I could single-handedly eradicate Muslim teaching, I would..."
Which is not only against religious freedom, but just wrong. There are many good Muslims who have good beliefs. What makes your religion any more right than theirs? Even if a group's beliefs were horrible and evil, they have the freedom to believe them. Acting on those beliefs is totally different. There are plenty of places where religious freedom isn't tolerated. I like that we have that freedom in America.


Now go read the Koran again(?) and if you see nothing wrong with Muslim teaching, you are in dire need of help.

If you cannot see the Koran as a book of peace, I recommend at least trying to see why others see it like this.

I am not an expert on Islam, so I am not the best person to defend it. I don't even believe in the religion. I have tried my best to understand Islam and the Koran.

If you google it, you can get lots of good articles explaining why the Koran promotes peace. Unfortunately, there are even more articles explaining it as a book of violence. Obviously reading the Koran itself is better, but you seem to be missing some of the key parts.

I looked around a little and found this. It's a 2 page article that gives a nice summary on what many Muslim scholars believe:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/09/0925_TVkoran.html

I'm not expecting to change your beliefs. But to view an entire religious book as flat out evil is just wrong in my opinion. Just as it's wrong to use the book to justify evil.

[yelram]

Bootlen is half of the reason we are still fighting the crusades. The other half lives in a cave somewhere. The question is, who should we call upon to be more conscionable?

[behappy]

Along with everything that was said above.........

If a man said he will not wear the American flag pin.
If an "American" will not hold his hand over his heart during the pledge.
AND I truly beleive HE beleives like his wife, that this is the first time he is proud of his country.

Why would I want a man who beleives like that, running our country!

[bootlen]

Bootlen is half of the reason we are still fighting the crusades. The other half lives in a cave somewhere. The question is, who should we call upon to be more conscionable?

Now that is a legit question.

Lessee. Christianity says lying is a sin and one should never lie. Islam says it's okay to lie to non-Muslims to reach a goal.

I'm sure, though, that you and justin are still either undecided or would choose to be deluded.

Knock yer silly selves out, friends.

[sysint]

"I am referring to ......the doctrine of Christianity."

Well - That explains things. Rather than the Bible itself the doctrine which is primarily sourced from Catholicism. Further, Jesus didn't fight but you do. Just who commanded you to do that? You can't trust God enough not to fight. If your God is with you and your hope is sure you wouldn't need to fight.

"Bootlen is half of the reason we are still fighting the crusades. The other half lives in a cave somewhere. The question is, who should we call upon to be more conscionable?" He thinks he is different somehow.

[justinhvac]

Islam says it's okay to lie to non-Muslims to reach a goal.

They do not! Stop spreading your hate-filled lies. You talk about lying being a sin, and then lie in the next line.

Any educated person not living in a cave can see this. It is not the Koran or Islam, but the teachings of violent leaders and extremists.

[scrogdog]

Well - That explains things. Rather than the Bible itself the doctrine which is primarily sourced from Catholicism. Further, Jesus didn't fight but you do. Just who commanded you to do that? You can't trust God enough not to fight. If your God is with you and your hope is sure you wouldn't need to fight.

Philosophically interesting to say the least.

There must be some kind of clause to get us out of self-defense being viewed as a sin then, right? Self-preservation is about the strongest instinct we have. Instinct that is God-given.

[glennac]

They do not! Stop spreading your hate-filled lies. You talk about lying being a sin, and then lie in the next line.

Any educated person not living in a cave can see this. It is not the Koran or Islam, but the teachings of violent leaders and extremists.

Who is spreading lies? Booten is not but you are. Here is a link to your loving Koran. Read it if you dare.
http://etext.virginia.edu/koran.html

Now check out the following link showing you the passages teaching hate, killing etc toward non Muslims.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Quran.htm

You can then look them up independently in the first link is from the U of Vir and is non biased interpretation in English of the Koran.

[sysint]

Scrog- I quoted Psalm 137 for a reason. It was to show how hypocritical "Christians" can be about their faith because they take up arms and fight which is against what Jesus said. They don't have true faith otherwise they would not take up arms.

It's interesting you bring up self-defense. According to God's rules in Israel if somebody came in the house at night and you killed him, OK. But, if it happened in daylight, that was a problem.

Exodus 22:2 "If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed; 3 but if it happens after sunrise, he is guilty of bloodshed.


Psalms 137: 7 Remember, O LORD, what the Edomites did on the day Jerusalem fell. "Tear it down," they cried, "tear it down to its foundations!"8 O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us-9 he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.

[justinhvac]

Who is spreading lies? Booten is not but you are. Here is a link to your loving Koran. Read it if you dare.
http://etext.virginia.edu/koran.html

Now check out the following link showing you the passages teaching hate, killing etc toward non Muslims.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Quran.htm

You can then look them up independently in the first link is from the U of Vir and is non biased interpretation in English of the Koran.

I have read the Koran. This is what we have been talking about. The Koran is a book of peace. Certain parts talk about violence, but the Koran as a whole promotes peace. The Bible is the same.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/09/0925_TVkoran.html

Taking certain lines from the Koran doesn't prove anything. You can do the same thing with the Bible and make it look bad. Only an uneducated person would do this. You have to take the book as a whole. Obviously you and boot are unwilling to do this for the Koran, but can with the Bible.

And that 2nd link isn't biased at all :rolleyes:

[glennac]

Scrog- I quoted Psalm 137 for a reason. It was to show how hypocritical "Christians" can be about their faith because they take up arms and fight which is against what Jesus said. They don't have true faith otherwise they would not take up arms.

It's interesting you bring up self-defense. According to God's rules in Israel if somebody came in the house at night and you killed him, OK. But, if it happened in daylight, that was a problem.

Exodus 22:2 "If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed; 3 but if it happens after sunrise, he is guilty of bloodshed.

You are quoting the Old Testament. Try quoting the New Testament when trying to defame Christianity. The New Testament gives the teachings of Christianity

[sysint]

I see. I should discount anything in the Old Testament?
Should I disregard all the times Jesus and the apostles quoted the Old Testament in the New Testament as well? Should I ignore the Book of Hebrews because it states the law was a tutor leading to Christ?

Maybe you should immediately retract and rethink your position.

[trane]

I have read the Koran. This is what we have been talking about. The Koran is a book of peace. Certain parts talk about violence, but the Koran as a whole promotes peace. The Bible is the same.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/09/0925_TVkoran.html

Taking certain lines from the Koran doesn't prove anything. You can do the same thing with the Bible and make it look bad. Only an uneducated person would do this. You have to take the book as a whole. Obviously you and boot are unwilling to do this for the Koran, but can with the Bible.

And that 2nd link isn't biased at all :rolleyes:

Your free to think as you wish. To me the Bible is far from the same and its clear you don't wish to see it any other way.

[justinhvac]

Your free to think as you wish. To me the Bible is far from the same and its clear you don't wish to see it any other way.

Like you don't want to see it a different way from how you see it now?

It is fine to say that you disagree with Islam. But to say that Islam should be wiped from the world is just a very hateful thing to say. There is nothing wrong with the religion, only some of it's leaders / followers.

Your religion isn't better than anyone else's.

[scrogdog]

Your free to think as you wish. To me the Bible is far from the same and its clear you don't wish to see it any other way.

He didn't say they were the same, he said that snippets could be taken from either that show violent intent. To me, that's a flat out fact.

Interesting that it would be ok to someone that God can kill hundreds of thousands in a flood just because they don't believe, but then they gape in wonder at the mindset thay says that believers from another religion should kill non-believers.

I'm not sure the dead by either method see the huge moral and philosophical difference there. Kinda like me.

[glennac]

I have read the Koran. This is what we have been talking about. The Koran is a book of peace. Certain parts talk about violence, but the Koran as a whole promotes peace. The Bible is the same.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/09/0925_TVkoran.html

Taking certain lines from the Koran doesn't prove anything. You can do the same thing with the Bible and make it look bad. Only an uneducated person would do this. You have to take the book as a whole. Obviously you and boot are unwilling to do this for the Koran, but can with the Bible.

You can not find anything like that in the New Testament. There are over 500 passages in the link in my post showing hate and violence toward non Muslims. Your "scholars" are Muslims who want to defend their religion and are covering up to pull the veil over your eyes.

But you go ahead and believe them and while your at it travel to some Muslim countries controlled by the Sharia law and enjoy watching a few stonings and maybe a beheading or two. I would suggest Iran, Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia for a good view. Grow a beard for your own safety if I were you though.

[scrogdog]

Scrog- I quoted Psalm 137 for a reason. It was to show how hypocritical "Christians" can be about their faith because they take up arms and fight which is against what Jesus said. They don't have true faith otherwise they would not take up arms.

It's interesting you bring up self-defense. According to God's rules in Israel if somebody came in the house at night and you killed him, OK. But, if it happened in daylight, that was a problem.

Exodus 22:2 "If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed; 3 but if it happens after sunrise, he is guilty of bloodshed.


Psalms 137: 7 Remember, O LORD, what the Edomites did on the day Jerusalem fell. "Tear it down," they cried, "tear it down to its foundations!"8 O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us-9 he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.


Interesting is the word all right. I'm not sure I can see the reasoning behind "ok at night but not in the day", but perhaps this snippet is preventing understanding at a larger level and perspective because it is out of context of a larger point being made.

[justinhvac]

Did I say that all Muslims are good? Or that countries that are predominately Muslim have good laws or governments?

No. There are many bad Muslims. But there are many good ones too. And ask an EDUCATED Mulsim what they think of the Koran, not some idiot living in a cave or in the desert.

[scrogdog]

You can not find anything like that in the New Testament. There are over 500 passages in the link in my post showing hate and violence toward non Muslims. Your "scholars" are Muslims who want to defend their religion and are covering up to pull the veil over your eyes.

But you go ahead and believe them and while your at it travel to some Muslim countries controlled by the Sharia law and enjoy watching a few stonings and maybe a beheading or two. I would suggest Iran, Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia for a good view. Grow a beard for your own safety if I were you though.

There is no avoiding the old testament, I'm afraid. It is what it is. PART of the bible.

At one time, many Christians killed in the name of God. That they no longer do is the same kind of peaceful revelation we need from Islam. It's probably not going to be quick or fun. Nor was it back in Christianity's violent day.

[glennac]

I see. I should discount anything in the Old Testament?
Should I disregard all the times Jesus and the apostles quoted the Old Testament in the New Testament as well? Should I ignore the Book of Hebrews because it states the law was a tutor leading to Christ?

Maybe you should immediately retract and rethink your position.

The Old Testament is the teachings of Judism. Jesus came down from heaven and gave us new teachings and that is the New Testament. Not discounting the Old Testament but that is what it is the "Old" Testament. Christians follow the New Testament and the Ten Commandments and prophecies (which coincide with our Christian teachings of today) in the Old Testament . What teachings in the Old Testaments do Christians follow other the the Ten Commandments and the prophecies?

[justinhvac]

So should Judaism, which uses the Old Testament, be wiped from the Earth along with Islam? Since both talk about violence and evil?

Let's get rid of Hinduism and Buddhism too then while we are at it.

[glennac]

So should Judaism, which uses the Old Testament, be wiped from the Earth along with Islam? Since both talk about violence and evil?

Let's get rid of Hinduism and Buddhism too then while we are at it.

Let's get real. While not defending the Jewish Religion and Israel they are not at war against civilization like a good percentage of Muslims are. And the Old Testament does not teach killing non believers like the Koran. Let's have no spin here. Hinduism and especially Buddhism are non violent. Give me a break.

[justinhvac]

Let's get real. While not defending the Jewish Religion and Israel they are not at war against civilization like a good percentage of Muslims are. And the Old Testament does not teach killing non believers like the Koran. Let's have no spin here. Hinduism and especially Buddhism are non violent. Give me a break.

But it is the people, not the religion that is violent. The religion just speaks of violence, just as Judaism and Hinduism do, but promotes peace.

The Koran does not teach killing of non-believers either. Some uneducated people, like you and the terrorists, seem to think so though.

If Islam should be eliminated, so should Judaism and Hinduism teachings. Both of them and Islam promote peace, but each of those religions have parts of texts that can be interpreted as violent. It has nothing to do with the people (unless you just hate Muslim people). There are bad and good people in each of those religions.

They should be forced to a religion that promotes peace and speaks only of peace, like Christianity. After all, nothing bad ever came of Christianity. :rolleyes:

[scrogdog]

Let's get real. While not defending the Jewish Religion and Israel they are not at war against civilization like a good percentage of Muslims are. And the Old Testament does not teach killing non believers like the Koran. Let's have no spin here. Hinduism and especially Buddhism are non violent. Give me a break.

However, God does lead by example in the OT. The OT presents God as a warrior-king who led the nation of Isreal in to war many times for many reasons which can be loosely summed up as breaking the covenent.

But God did not just want them beaten, sometimes he wanted them totally destroyed. Genocide; ordered by God.


This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys. (1st Sam 15:2-3)

Now's the fun part when the tap dance begins in an attempt to defend a morally reprehensible and unconscionable action by God.

Raise your hand if you would obey this command. Got it in you to kill babies, or what?

[sysint]

Interesting is the word all right. I'm not sure I can see the reasoning behind "ok at night but not in the day", but perhaps this snippet is preventing understanding at a larger level and perspective because it is out of context of a larger point being made. If an intruder were to come in daylight and you kill him there would be no reason to kill him so it would not be unintentional manslaughter, it would be murder. However, under cover of darkness a person may not have discernible time to assess the danger level. Therefore, the law made allowance for that limitation. It makes sense to me.

[sysint]

The Old Testament is the teachings of Judism. Jesus came down from heaven and gave us new teachings and that is the New Testament. Not discounting the Old Testament but that is what it is the "Old" Testament. Christians follow the New Testament and the Ten Commandments and prophecies (which coincide with our Christian teachings of today) in the Old Testament . What teachings in the Old Testaments do Christians follow other the the Ten Commandments and the prophecies?

Who decided what teachings to follow? It would seem to be the case if the apostles and Jesus quoted Old Testament scriptures the ideas are valid. It also points to consistency on God's part.

Again, the NEW Testament book of Hebrews calls the law a TUTOR leading to Christ. So, the NEW Testament is making the case for the OLD.

If the Bible is inspired of God you are claiming an inconsistency on the part of God with his ideas.

[sysint]

(by Glenn)And the Old Testament does not teach killing non believers like the Koran. Let's have no spin here.


.....This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys. (1st Sam 15:2-3)

Now's the fun part when the tap dance begins in an attempt to defend a morally reprehensible and unconscionable action by God. Raise your hand if you would obey this command. Got it in you to kill babies, or what?

Yea. Let's have no spin here...........

[sysint]

However, God does lead by example in the OT. The OT presents God as a warrior-king who led the nation of Isreal in to war many times for many reasons which can be loosely summed up as breaking the covenent. But God did not just want them beaten, sometimes he wanted them totally destroyed. Genocide; ordered by God. --- I have an answer for this. I'll let the other guys fumble around a bit first.
--God does lead by example in the OT.-- I agree with this statement.

[glennac]

But it is the people, not the religion that is violent. The religion just speaks of violence, just as Judaism and Hinduism do, but promotes peace.

The Koran does not teach killing of non-believers either. Some uneducated people, like you and the terrorists, seem to think so though.

If Islam should be eliminated, so should Judaism and Hinduism teachings. Both of them and Islam promote peace, but each of those religions have parts of texts that can be interpreted as violent. It has nothing to do with the people (unless you just hate Muslim people). There are bad and good people in each of those religions.

They should be forced to a religion that promotes peace and speaks only of peace, like Christianity. After all, nothing bad ever came of Christianity. :rolleyes:

This is useless, the Koran does teach killing. I have given you the link. Do I have to spoon feed them to you? Now I never said Islam should be eliminated that would have to take out a good percent of the world population. Just stop all immirgration of Muslims, from Muslim countries unless they are indeed non Muslims and have a good reason to immigrate here and can be a benifit to our country instead of a burdon.

[scrogdog]

If an intruder were to come in daylight and you kill him there would be no reason to kill him so it would not be unintentional manslaughter, it would be murder. However, under cover of darkness a person may not have discernible time to assess the danger level. Therefore, the law made allowance for that limitation. It makes sense to me.

What if the intruder was poised to kill your unsuspecting wife? Doesn't seem like it should matter whether or not it is day or night. To kill that intuder in that circumstance regardless of the time of day is a logical act in defense of home and family.

[glennac]

God in the Old Testament never said kill all non believers but did said to kill certain folks like the Amalekites but that was in the "Old" and is not the teachings of Christianity. Give me a break. You all are pulling stuff that Christians had nothing to do with and happened thousands of years ago before Christianity came on the scene, where the Koran teaches this stuff today and has not changed over the centuries. They don't have an "Old" and "New" Koran just the same one for all ages and is believed today by the Muslims.

[glennac]

If you want to slam and defame Christianity then quote the New Testament. You can't because there is no violence there, nothing like that. You all quote stuff long before Christianity came upon the scene. You are all unreal.

[scrogdog]

God in the Old Testament never said kill all non believers but did said to kill certain folks like the Amalekites but that was in the "Old" and is not the teachings of Christianity. Give me a break. You all are pulling stuff that Christians had nothing to do with and happened thousands of years ago before Christianity came on the scene, where the Koran teaches this stuff today and has not changed over the centuries. They don't have an "Old" and "New" Koran just the same one for all ages and is believed today by the Muslims.

Old Testament or new, it is still your God! The Old Testament is the foundation for the new. I understand it is a NEW covenant, but I'm sorry Glenn, that does not absolve your God of responsibility! Just because it is old it's ok? Come on.

So, do you obey that command when it comes? If not, then you freely admit you would disobey your God. Hey! Welcome aboard the ship of sanity, nice to have you! If you say yes, then hell, I don't know what to say to that! Except that you have some gall calling Muslims whack jobs! :)

[glennac]

Old Testament or new, it is still your God! The Old Testament is the foundation for the new. I understand it is a NEW covenant, but I'm sorry Glenn, that does not absolve your God of responsibility! Just because it is old it's ok? Come on.

So, do you obey that command when it comes? If not, then you freely admit you would disobey your God. Hey! Welcome aboard the ship of sanity, nice to have you! If you say yes, then hell, I don't know what to say to that! Except that you have some gall calling Muslims whack jobs! :)

You all go ahead and defend the religion of hate while they attack Western Civilization and keep slamming Christianity. Nothing can convince you otherwise. I give up, go become a Muslim and read the Koran and find out what the great religion of "Peace" is all about. Believe what those "Muslim scholars" tell you and at the same time those "scholars" won't condem the radicals who are doing this. Believe what you want.

[sysint]

What if the intruder was poised to kill your unsuspecting wife? Doesn't seem like it should matter whether or not it is day or night. To kill that intuder in that circumstance regardless of the time of day is a logical act in defense of home and family.They had rules on manslaughter that would apply with their cities of refuge. I guess a determination on killing the man "poised to kill" someone else was the only thing to be done or whether the man "poised to kill" could be stopped from killing another way. To be clear I'm commenting on a distinction between homicide and manslaughter and the lengths a person would need to consider when dealing with situations. The intent is not to kill if possible, hence the distinction between night and day. At night under cover of darkness you cannot necessarily assess your situation correctly, whereas by day you should be able to. Therefore, more accountability by day.

[sysint]

...I see the fumbling is going on already. Glenn is not prepared to argue these points.

[scrogdog]

Giving up is a frequent stance of those who can't deal with the tough questions.

Whether or not you use the teachings of the bible or any other religious work as a sword or a shield is a personal choice - not a directive. Christians have now found a path of peace for which I am sure many are eternally grateful. Muslims need to find that path too.

Regardless of what either book says.

[scrogdog]

...I see the fumbling is going on already. Glenn is not prepared to argue these points.

Ya think? :D

[sysint]

Scrog - Do you think that God can make decisions about his creation?

[scrogdog]

They had rules on manslaughter that would apply with their cities of refuge. I guess a determination on killing the man "poised to kill" someone else was the only thing to be done or whether the man "poised to kill" could be stopped from killing another way. To be clear I'm commenting on a distinction between homicide and manslaughter and the lengths a person would need to consider when dealing with situations. The intent is not to kill if possible, hence the distinction between night and day. At night under cover of darkness you cannot necessarily assess your situation correctly, whereas by day you should be able to. Therefore, more accountability by day.

Ok, I can accept that - makes a bit more sense.

[scrogdog]

Scrog - Do you think that God can make decisions about his creation?

I suppose that he could. But here's the caveat to that stance; if God can make that determination, then what is so strange and abhorrent about Allah and Muslims doing and thinking exactly the same way?

If you say that it is simply because your God is true and thiers not, I would not find that to be acceptable as an argument or excuse.

[justinhvac]

This is useless, the Koran does teach killing. I have given you the link. Do I have to spoon feed them to you? Now I never said Islam should be eliminated that would have to take out a good percent of the world population. Just stop all immirgration of Muslims, from Muslim countries unless they are indeed non Muslims and have a good reason to immigrate here and can be a benifit to our country instead of a burdon.

I am disgusted with you and Boot and I am not even Muslim. I really hope no one who is Muslim reads these forums, as they would be highly offended.

Well Boot said that Islam (the religion, not the people) should be wiped off the Earth. The post you linked talks about how Islam needs to be stopped to save the world. By your posts and links provided, seems like you want Islam to be stopped as well.

The link you provided is hate-filled garbage. That's all it is. It was probably written by some idiot who hates black people, Jews, and Latinos as well.

Stop the immigration of Muslims? This is America buddy. Why should anyone have to show that they are non-Muslim?

My second roommate in college was Muslim and very religious. He came here from Pakistan when he was younger. He was very educated, spoke English very well, and was Pre-Med - he wanted to become a doctor to help people. Him and his family were very religious and good people, better than a lot of Christian families I have met. They believed that Islam was a peaceful religion. They were very against what happened at 9/11 and said that the terrorists were acting against their religion. My roommate was just as upset as any other American - yet he was Muslim. He also believed the Koran to be a book of peace.

He did not brainwash me or convince me of anything – I had read the Koran prior to even meeting him when I was in search of a religion.

Was he faking all this to trick me for 2 years? Or maybe despite his education, he was actually an idiot and read the Koran wrong? Maybe he was secretly a terrorist and was hiding his identity by becoming a doctor. I am not a paranoid person.

Or could it be that uneducated people in the Middle East are just looking for a reason to justify violence, and you people in the South are just looking for a way to justify your hatred. Meanwhile, educated Muslim followers and Muslim scholars who can actually think for themselves see it is a religion of peace.

Here in New Jersey (where everyone isn't white Protestant), I have met quite a few good Muslim people. Some were African-American and the rest were from Southern Asian heritages.

According to Boot, good people like him should not be allowed to practice their peaceful religion. According to you, great people like him should not be allowed into the country.

Sounds to me like you two are the Un-American ones, who are against the Bill of Rights, religious freedom, and bettering the country. It really disgusts me.

I wouldn't think a good Christian would hate any group as much as you two do.

[yelram]

Now that is a legit question.

Lessee. Christianity says lying is a sin and one should never lie. Islam says it's okay to lie to non-Muslims to reach a goal.

I'm sure, though, that you and justin are still either undecided or would choose to be deluded.

Knock yer silly selves out, friends.

Did you ever think maybe we know far more about both YOUR religion and Islam, than you do? I'm sure you've taken classes on other religions right? And what you are talking about wasnt taught to you from the pulpit, or around groups of friends who may be somewhat bigoted, right(Or maybe talk radio)? I spent my whole young life in a baptist christian church. I've read the sacred texts of just about every major world religion. If you guys were teaching what christ taught, instead of paying him lipservice while you malign and belittle every other world religion, it'd be one thing. But when you somehow hold his banner above, while you smack your self-righteous lips in judgment of others, it shows why christianity has been misused since its creation. Self aggrandizing pharisees is all I see.

Jesus died for the sins of the world, NOT for the sins of christians.

[sysint]

I suppose that he could. But here's the caveat to that stance; if God can make that determination, then what is so strange and abhorrent about Allah and Muslims doing and thinking exactly the same way?

If you say that it is simply because your God is true and thiers not, I would not find that to be acceptable as an argument or excuse.I understand your beliefs are different but follow my line of thought here - Muslims and Christians did not create themselves. Therefore, unless God makes a decision on taking a life or grants/commands it of people they cannot take a life intentionally.

[scrogdog]

I understand your beliefs are different but follow my line of thought here - Muslims and Christians did not create themselves. Therefore, unless God makes a decision on taking a life or grants/commands it of people they cannot take a life intentionally.

Fair enough. But still, again, they have a God... you have a God. If yours says to kill, then you say it is ok that folks were killed. If a Muslim gets the word from Allah to kill, isn't that exactly the same thing?

[justinhvac]

Fair enough. But still, again, they have a God... you have a God. If yours says to kill, then you say it is ok that folks were killed. If a Muslim gets the word from Allah to kill, isn't that exactly the same thing?

It is the same. Allah is just arabic for God. Both God in the Bible and God in the Koran have many similarities. No one knows which is the true God, if one is even right. They have to be the treated the same. Either it is okay in both cases, or it is not in both.

[glennac]

I am disgusted with you and Boot and I am not even Muslim. I really hope no one who is Muslim reads these forums, as they would be highly offended.

Well Boot said that Islam (the religion, not the people) should be wiped off the Earth. The post you linked talks about how Islam needs to be stopped to save the world. By your posts and links provided, seems like you want Islam to be stopped as well.

The link you provided is hate-filled garbage. That's all it is. It was probably written by some idiot who hates black people, Jews, and Latinos as well.

Stop the immigration of Muslims? This is America buddy. Why should anyone have to show that they are non-Muslim?

My second roommate in college was Muslim and very religious. He came here from Pakistan when he was younger. He was very educated, spoke English very well, and was Pre-Med - he wanted to become a doctor to help people. Him and his family were very religious and good people, better than a lot of Christian families I have met. They believed that Islam was a peaceful religion. They were very against what happened at 9/11 and said that the terrorists were acting against their religion. My roommate was just as upset as any other American - yet he was Muslim. He also believed the Koran to be a book of peace.

He did not brainwash me or convince me of anything – I had read the Koran prior to even meeting him when I was in search of a religion.

Was he faking all this to trick me for 2 years? Or maybe despite his education, he was actually an idiot and read the Koran wrong? Maybe he was secretly a terrorist and was hiding his identity by becoming a doctor. I am not a paranoid person.

Or could it be that uneducated people in the Middle East are just looking for a reason to justify violence, and you people in the South are just looking for a way to justify your hatred. Meanwhile, educated Muslim followers and Muslim scholars who can actually think for themselves see it is a religion of peace.

Here in New Jersey (where everyone isn't white Protestant), I have met quite a few good Muslim people. Some were African-American and the rest were from Southern Asian heritages.

According to Boot, good people like him should not be allowed to practice their peaceful religion. According to you, great people like him should not be allowed into the country.

Sounds to me like you two are the Un-American ones, who are against the Bill of Rights, religious freedom, and bettering the country. It really disgusts me.

Well I am equally disgusted with you and your appeasement for our enemies and . I never have said or implied that all Muslims are terrorists or bad folks. But I believe that their religion is anti West, civilization and a threat to world peace.

We keep felons out of this country, former members of the SS even if they were drafted into the SS which thousands were during the last two years of WWII (it doesn't mean that they have ever done anything wrong). I simply don't want Muslims immigrating here because some of them will be terrorists or supporters of them and even if not their children mijght become terrorists which has happen in England to the shock of their loyal Muslim parents.

Now what book are you disgusted with? The Bible. Perhaps you prefer the Koran which is more to your liking since you believe it is a book of peace and you feel the opposite of the Bible. The link I provided stands on its own. Look up the quotes listed there and check them out. I provided you a link to the Koran from the U of Vir and it gives a straight interpretation of the Koran. Yes you are for the destruction of our culture and way of life.

We used to restrict immigration into this country with strict quotas and mostly from Northern Europe where most of us came from and they share our beliefs in Western Civilization. I consider you un American and you truly disgust me.

[justinhvac]

If restricting immigration based on religious beliefs and wiping out religious beliefs is "American", then yes I am not an "American".

If the government can restrict religion, then they could restrict race, gender, sexual orientation, etc.

I don't want my government telling me what I can or cannot believe.

You don't deserve to be here more than anyone else who obeys the laws and contributes to society.

[sysint]

Fair enough. But still, again, they have a God... you have a God. If yours says to kill, then you say it is ok that folks were killed. If a Muslim gets the word from Allah to kill, isn't that exactly the same thing?Then I guess you need to have more things to compare until you arrive at a conclusion on the matter. However, killing has no place in Christianity as God is the one taking any such actions as part of his new covenant with people through Christ. Therefore, any people calling themselves Christian would not kill because God is handling that. That is not what we see today. I think any Christian making a judgment against the Muslim people is not following their own Biblical teachings in the NEW Testament should they participate in war.

EDIT- I'm also saying it would be appropriate to review any OT accounts on God's judgment on people that caused the nation of Israel to kill others by evaluation.

[justinhvac]

Now what book are you disgusted with? The Bible. Perhaps you prefer the Koran which is more to your liking since you believe it is a book of peace and you feel the opposite of the Bible.

I do not prefer either book. I do not believe in Christianity and I do not believe in Islam.

You are just assuming that I don't support Christianity because I support Islam. You can think both are good religions, and I do. I have yet to find a religion I did not think was a good and peaceful religion. There is, however, just one I do believe in.

I believe both the Koran and the Bible are books of peace. I never said anything bad of the Bible. All I said is that if you ignore the Bible as a whole and take certain parts, it can be incorrectly interpreted to promote violence. The same goes for the Koran.

[scrogdog]

Either it is okay in both cases, or it is not in both.

My point exactly.

[glennac]

Or could it be that uneducated people in the Middle East are just looking for a reason to justify violence, and you people in the South are just looking for a way to justify your hatred. Meanwhile, educated Muslim followers and Muslim scholars who can actually think for themselves see it is a religion of peace.

.

I can't let that pass. You are bashing patriotic Southerners because we don't share your liberal view of how "America" should be. I grew up loving our flag and believing in defending it against all "enemies" both foreign and domestic. We didn't fall in with the commie loving hippies in the 60's (very few did in the South).

We went proudly to fight the commies in Vietnam and didn't protest our millitary, Southerners didn't call us "baby killers" like the a lot of the hippies did in the North and West. We don't "hate" other folks because they are "different" but if they hate us and our way of life then we do.

Most of my friends served in Nam and none fled to Canada or were hippies. Don't knock Southerners we are proud yes but also love America especially the way it was before the hippies and homo's came on the scene. It would be great to go back to the 50's yes indeed.

[justinhvac]

I am not a "liberal", "hippie", or a "homo". I do believe in religious freedom.

And what I meant, is all the people on this site posting their hatred of Islam, just so happen to be from southern states. I'm not saying all southerners are racist or haters.

I was not alive during Vietnam, and have never protested a war.

You may say you "love" our flag and country, but you don't agree with our freedom and want to restrict our rights. Many people see guns as dangerous, yet we have that freedom. You see a religion as dangerous, and we have that freedom too. Or do you want gun control as well I'm guessing?

[glennac]

And I am not a "liberal", "hippie", or a "homo". I do believe in religious freedom.

Never said or implied that you were a hippie or a homo. Maybe a liberal though but that is my opinion and I could be wrong, you sound like one.

[justinhvac]

Never said or implied that you were a hippie or a homo. Maybe a liberal though but that is my opinion and I could be wrong, you sound like one.

Because I don't believe in telling others what they can or cannot believe? I believe in our Bill of Rights and they need to be protected. You want them to make laws violating them. Like I said before, you may "love" our country, but you sure don't seem to love our rights and freedom.

I am not some Bible-Thumping Conservative, if that is what you mean by non-liberal. I may have some liberal views, but I am not a Democrat and would not consider myself a "liberal". I would consider myself a libertarian, but have generally voted Republican due to disliking most recent LP choices.

You don't have to hate Muslims and "homos" to be a Republican. That is called political freedom - do you want to eliminate or restrict that too?

[scrogdog]

Then I guess you need to have more things to compare until you arrive at a conclusion on the matter. However, killing has no place in Christianity as God is the one taking any such actions as part of his new covenant with people through Christ. Therefore, any people calling themselves Christian would not kill because God is handling that. That is not what we see today. I think any Christian making a judgment against the Muslim people is not following their own Biblical teachings in the NEW Testament should they participate in war.

EDIT- I'm also saying it would be appropriate to review any OT accounts on God's judgment on people that caused the nation of Israel to kill others by evaluation.

Well said in a way that does not make you sound like a hypocrite. :)

I must ask you this though, are you saying that elements of the Old Testament bear further review because they are inconsistent with other teachings both old and new? If that is the case, then my hat is off to you. I can't remember any other believer ever suggesting to me that the bible might need revision. Most believers speak solely in the realm of absolutes.

[sysint]

Not exactly. I used Psalm 137 which none of the fundies explain very well. However, if you analyze the verse it is not God saying go kill the babies.... of course it would be better if there were a clearcut response by God on the matter in that context.

I'm stating you need to analyze where God has stated a judgment. Your example in 1 Samuel is a good one. I think you need to take the cases in the OT where God puts forth a judgment or carries out judgment, attach a "why" to it and move from that point.

I do feel that God has the right to make judgment decisions against people. He has that authority. Further, God provides warnings before actions in the OT. Of all the people in the promised land God warned them. I think only one group was smart enough to investigate and work within the authority of God and his decisions.

[glennac]

Because I don't believe in telling others what they can or cannot believe? I believe in our Bill of Rights and they need to be protected. You want them to make laws violating them. Like I said before, you may "love" our country, but you sure don't seem to love our rights and freedom.

I am not some Bible-Thumping Conservative, if that is what you mean by non-liberal. I may have some liberal views, but I am not a Democrat and would not consider myself a "liberal". I would consider myself a libertarian, but have generally voted Republican due to disliking most recent LP choices.

You don't have to hate Muslims and "homos" to be a Republican. That is called political freedom - do you want to eliminate or restrict that too?

We have had the Bill of Rights since the founding of the country and just not in the last 40 years when LBJ and then Carter opened the flood gates on immigration to let in non Western immigrants from around the world.

The Bill of Rights pertains to US citizens not the rest of the world who feel that they have a right to immigrate here. Nor does it pertain to non US citizens who are in this country even though our liberal Federal Courts are now applying it to even terrorists who don't even qualify for the Geneva Convention since they are terrorists and have no uniforms and are murderers on innocents. I guess you believe our Constitution applies to the rest of the world.

Stop trying to put words or ideas which I have never expressed or implied to my beliefs. I do not do the same to you but liberals are famous for this. Like your comment on what you think I consider a Republican or not. You can love Muslims for all I care and can still call your self a Republican if you at least believe in limited goverment and oppose the increase of Federal control of our lives. Hell you can be a homo for all I care and still be a Republican but I won't approve of there lifestyle. So stop trying to paint me as something I am not. Show a little respect. I am not calling you a commie and homo. So get off this BS. Thank you

[justinhvac]

I guess you believe our Constitution applies to the rest of the world.

I never said that. I said that restricting religious beliefs in our country is against our freedoms. If they start limiting what religions can come into the country, what would happen next? And would Muslims that already got in be allowed to stay?

And who are you to say that someone doesn't have the right to be here just based on their religious beliefs?

[glennac]

I never said that. I said that restricting religious beliefs in our country is against the Bill of Rights.

And who are you to say that someone doesn't have the right to be here just based on their religious beliefs?

Not me but our goverment does and has in the past kept anarchists, communists, and immigrants from various countries out. No one has a "right" to immigrate here but our goverment does have to "right" to decide who can come here based on any reason such as their beliefs (communism, etc.) national origin, whether or not they have disease or are healthy or not. They have done this in the past and can in the future if we so desire.

[justinhvac]

I changed my post probably while you were writing yours.

Restricting an entire religion from coming here is the stupidest thing I have heard of. They are not all violent. You are grouping together the innocents with those who murder.

The day our country restricts our religious freedom, is just one more step in the wrong direction. You are irrational and think you are better than others. Who do you think you are to say that your religion belongs here and others do not. Seriously, get over yourself.

[glennac]

Our country does have the right to restrict immigration based on religion if there is shown a significant danger or problem by allowing folks of a religion that is against our country and our Constitution. It has been done in the past when we refused entry into the US of Communists. That could be considered a religion of sorts at least a belief in the forced take over of a goverment and the destruction of our Bill of Rights and Constitution. Anarchists were denied entry also for that reason.

The radical Muslims want to impose Sharia law here like in the Middle East and that could be considered a threat worthy of denying entry into the US in my opinion. But I realize that you will scream religious freedom but where do you draw the line between their religious freedom the our rights and freedom, just like with the communists and anarchists

[glennac]

I changed my post probably while you were writing yours.

Restricting an entire religion from coming here is the stupidest thing I have heard of. They are not all violent. You are grouping together the innocents with those who murder.

The day our country restricts our religious freedom, is just one more step in the wrong direction. You are irrational and think you are better than others. Who do you think you are to say that your religion belongs here and others do not. Seriously, get over yourself.

Who in the hell do you think you are calling me "irrational" you need to wake up and get a grip and visit one of your beloved Muslim countries and stop defending their religion. I don't think I am better than anyone else but who do you think you are saying lies about me and my beliefs. I simply see a threat which is coming here and is already well established in Europe because of the large population of Muslims all of who are not bad but enough are to cause massive security problems with huge expense to police the problem.

We should stop it here before it becomes to late. It is simple as that. Sure we all know someone who is a "Muslim" and is a good person but that is not the problem. A lot of others are not and they are being arrested all the time trying to commit terrorist acts and I might add at great expense to our intelligence agencies. Stop you name calling and talk rational but that would be asking to much from you since you like to call names instead of arguing logic. Why don't we just allow only Muslims to immigrate here and we can live under there laws with no freedom or rights for women and non Muslims. I hope you like praying and washing your feet five times a day.

[justinhvac]

I never said we should change our laws to theirs. If they are willing to accept our laws and government and live here peacfully while contributing to society, they should be allowed to live here. This is the same for any person, regardless of religion, political group, race, etc. I would not move to their country because I like our country and freedoms, and I do not like theirs. It had nothing to do with their religion. Not all Muslims agree with the government in the Middle East (which is why the religion is world-wide).

You are very paranoid of others. And you do think you are better than Muslims. You want to exclude over a billion people from the country because you think they are all (or mostly) violent people. By your words you also seem to hate "homos" and hippies.

What does your religion say about your hatred, biased, prejudice view of others? If Christianity supports your views it seems like a pretty crappy religion, and not any more deserving of being here.


Stop you name calling and talk rational
How can you speak rationally with someone who is so full of hate and paranoia? You already proved that is not possible. You are set in your ways and refuse to accept anything else. It is impossible to get through to you.

I will accept that there are violent bad Muslims out there who believe they are acting faithfully. But I will not accept that the religion is bad and every Muslim should be treated as you wish.

You can say you are rational, but the fact is that you are prejudice with a very biased view. It is plain and simple.

[sysint]

....You are very paranoid of others. And you do think you are better than Muslims. You want to exclude over a billion people from the country because you think they are all (or mostly) violent people. By your words you also seem to hate "homos" and hippies.

What does your religion say about your hatred, biased, prejudice view of others? If Christianity supports your views it seems like a pretty crappy religion, and not any more deserving of being here.

How can you speak rationally with someone who is so full of hate and paranoia? You already proved that is not possible. You are set in your ways and refuse to accept anything else. It is impossible to get through to you.... The term would be pseudo-Christian

[justinhvac]

Also, I missed this:


who do you think you are saying lies about me and my beliefs.

I did not say lies about you or your beliefs. You show your own hatred of Islam. And by your words you think you have a right to tell others what they can and can't believe when it comes to religion when entering our country. And you think you have the right to say who deserves to enter America based on their beliefs, not by their actions and history. You also think that all Muslims who think the Koran is a book of peace is flatout wrong in their beliefs. Those are not lies, unless you lied in your posts.

What lies have I said about you and your beliefs?

[sysint]

I get the impression he doesn't love his enemies....
He's also returning evil to evil to someone....
Oops!

(I've got more--- obviously)

[glennac]

I never said we should change our laws to theirs. If they are willing to accept our laws and government and live here peacfully while contributing to society, they should be allowed to live here. This is the same for any person, regardless of religion, political group, race, etc. I would not move to their country because I like our country and freedoms, and I do not like theirs. It had nothing to do with their religion. Not all Muslims agree with the government in the Middle East (which is why the religion is world-wide).

You are very paranoid of others. And you do think you are better than Muslims. You want to exclude over a billion people from the country because you think they are all (or mostly) violent people. By your words you also seem to hate "homos" and hippies.

What does your religion say about your hatred, biased, prejudice view of others? If Christianity supports your views it seems like a pretty crappy religion, and not any more deserving of being here.


How can you speak rationally with someone who is so full of hate and paranoia? You already proved that is not possible. You are set in your ways and refuse to accept anything else. It is impossible to get through to you.

I will accept that there are violent bad Muslims out there who believe they are acting faithfully. But I will not accept that the religion is bad and every Muslim should be treated as you wish.

You can say you are rational, but the fact is that you are prejudice with a very biased view. It is plain and simple.

Well there is no discussing anything with your continued irrational foul mouth. You believe what you want and I guess I should call you a degenerate commie loving homo liberal if you want to portray me as a hater of homo's and hippies. I tend to dislike hippies more since they are degenerates who have nothing but disrespect for our country and flag. Homos have a problem and I just want them to stay in the closet so to speak. Europe is falling apart thanks to radical Islam but you refuse to address this. I simply want to keep it from happening here and if keeping a lot of "good" Muslims out then sin loy (sorry about that) so be it. So you go ahead and continue to throw your garbage mouth at me for not agreeing with you. I can say that you are set in your ways and no use trying to change your mind. It is pointless.

You know France is probably beyond the point of no return in combating the take over of there country by the radical Muslims. I guess you don't mind that happening here. It is happening over there. Check out this link for info. I guess you forgot about the car burnings by Muslim youth throughout France last year.
http://wwwwakeupamericans-spree.blogspot.com/2008/03/muslim-takeover-of-west-how-it-works.html

[mrs reb77]

Fellas, a reminder to please keep it civil. Perhaps now would be a good time to let this thread chill for a while.
Thank you for your cooperation (all of you).

mrs reb77
ARPC

[justinhvac]

don't know how to delete my post.

[justinhvac]

Fellas, a reminder to please keep it civil. Perhaps now would be a good time to let this thread chill for a while.
Thank you for your cooperation (all of you).

mrs reb77
ARPC

Sorry about that. I didn't see your post till after I made mine. Didn't know how to delete it.

[sysint]

Sorry about that. I didn't see your post till after I made mine.

Edited by ARPC--that wasn't necessary sysint. Mrs. Reb asked everyone to cool off some, I think it's good advice.

[yelram]

Its amazing how Glenn somehow believes everyone has a "foulmouth" but him.

[mrs reb77]

So little to add, so many words to do it...

in the immortal words of Jerry Seinfeld....yadda yadda yadda....

[sysint]

Sorry about that. I didn't see your post till after I made mine. Didn't know how to delete it.I guess you will have to request an email for my response. I think you have some logic to your thinking.

[yelram]

Oh god, with Mrs. Reb on ARPC, this place is going to devolve into nothing but ARPC warnings and red tape. Who's next to get on the power trip, Glenn? Boot? Could you pick any more polarizing figures?

[k-fridge]

Oh god, with Mrs. Reb on ARPC, this place is going to devolve into nothing but ARPC warnings and red tape. Who's next to get on the power trip, Glenn? Boot? Could you pick any more polarizing figures?
Mrs. Reb has been an ARPC member for months, Boots has been on it from the beginning.

I'm also on it, I'm the water boy. :p

[sysint]

Well that's 2 of 3 of the biggest offenders right there. Of course they are doing more giving than getting.... which normally would be a good thing.

[mrs reb77]

Oh god, with Mrs. Reb on ARPC, this place is going to devolve into nothing but ARPC warnings and red tape. Who's next to get on the power trip, Glenn? Boot? Could you pick any more polarizing figures?

Gosh, I guess someone else must post on my user id. I could count the number of 'warnings' I've posted...probably on one hand.

You jealous people always amuse me.

And I've been on the ARPC since last year...

[mrs reb77]

Mrs. Reb has been an ARPC member for months, Boots has been on it from the beginning.

I'm also on it, I'm the water boy. :p

So that's why you get a bigger pay check. I was beginning to think it was something else...:p

[2cool4us]

Gosh, I guess someone else must post on my user id. I could count the number of 'warnings' I've posted...probably on one hand.

You jealous people always amuse me.

And I've been on the ARPC since last year...
Rush Limbaugh is a potential candidate for the ARP committee. :eek::D:rolleyes:

[mrs reb77]

What is his user name? I cannot stand that man.

[k-fridge]

Rush Limbaugh is a potential candidate for the ARP committee. :eek::D:rolleyes:
Nah, he's too liberal.











OK, that was a joke.:p

[air311]

How did I ever miss this thread, I missed some good stuff here. :confused:

[mrs reb77]

You were busy with the commie loving threads ;) :D

[air311]

Yeah..there's some long lines at those commie threads..might have to switch to a less popular idea

[mrs reb77]

What's the saying "A billion chinese can't be wong?"

[air311]

What's the saying "A billion chinese can't be wong?"

I didn't see any chinese in line. Maybe they're all trapped under the rubble.

[Andy Schoen]

Rush Limbaugh is a potential candidate for the ARP committee. :eek::D:rolleyes:
Nah, I suspect he won't support my right to concealed uzis. :D

[bootlen]

Oh god, with Mrs. Reb on ARPC, this place is going to devolve into nothing but ARPC warnings and red tape. Who's next to get on the power trip, Glenn? Boot? Could you pick any more polarizing figures?

Howdy, yel. You rang?

[mrs reb77]

Guess some people don't pay too much attention round here.