R22 still OK?

[KoolK]

I would like to have an 18 year old heat pump replaced this year. It still has the R22 in it from 1/1990. With a new unit, do I really have to care/worry about having another R22 unit put it? Other than the phase out of R22, is there a better reason to switch to a 410a unit? Thanks for your thoughtful input. KoolK

[miami mike]

In ten years when your "new" system is leaking at the evaporator coil and you have to repair or replace the coil you are going to spend $200 per pound of R-22 refrigerant to do so. If your system holds eights pounds....

Ouch!

[HVACSvc08]

There's nothing wrong with R-22 though it is phasing out so the price of it is going up very quickly. If you going replace your a/c system go ahead and go with the 410a.

[Mr Bill]

In ten years when your "new" system is leaking at the evaporator coil and you have to repair or replace the coil you are going to spend $200 per pound of R-22 refrigerant to do so. If your system holds eights pounds....

Ouch!


We a/c guys would like to believe that $200 per pound, but you can bet your last dime that someone will come out with a drop in replacement that will be much cheaper and technically already have. Were there is money to be made in this Country competition will always drive the prices down and you watch this is what is going to happen with R-22. I would say go with the 410A or R-22 study for yourself and make up your own mind would be my advise, I don't use scare tactics, we provide a plan or two and let the customer make up their own minds.

[Daltex]

I would like to have an 18 year old heat pump replaced this year. It still has the R22 in it from 1/1990. With a new unit, do I really have to care/worry about having another R22 unit put it? Other than the phase out of R22, is there a better reason to switch to a 410a unit? Thanks for your thoughtful input. KoolK

Are you asking if replacing just the HP and not the indoor coil with another R22 unit is ok or replacing the entire system inside and out?

[rundawg]

In ten years when your "new" system is leaking at the evaporator coil and you have to repair or replace the coil you are going to spend $200 per pound of R-22 refrigerant to do so. If your system holds eights pounds....Ouch!

Yes the price of R-22 is going up by the day, but $200/pound? PLEASE! R-12( used in most autos' before 1996) that has been unlawful to manufacture or import in this country since Jan. 1996, can still be purchased for a fraction(less than 1/4) of $200/pound today - 12 years later. Yes, the mark up by the contractor will be higher. Expensive compared to R-410a, but, use MR. Bills' advice and don't give in to scare tactics. Evaluate the cost of each system and make the choice based on what you can afford, what SEER rating you are trying to obtain, and how long you plan to stay in the home. Get several estimates. Good luck.

[beenthere]

In ten years when your "new" system is leaking at the evaporator coil and you have to repair or replace the coil you are going to spend $200 per pound of R-22 refrigerant to do so. If your system holds eights pounds....

Ouch!

Well, thats cheaper then R410A at $250.00 a pound.

[JBM1000]

Ic** 22B drop in. Environmentally friendly and will be around along time I'm sure. Price might be questionable by those whom stab customers deep while knowing they have a drop in at a reasonable price. :eek:

[beenthere]

It currently cost more then R22, no reason to believe it will be cheap in ten years. And no one knows if it will still be made in ten years.

[KoolK]

It will be both halves, inside and out replaced. Do you fellows find that one type is more reliable over the other, given the same maintence?

[kuryakin]

R410a is $250/lb? Where are you buying it?


Well, thats cheaper then R410A at $250.00 a pound.

[beenthere]

It will be both halves, inside and out replaced. Do you fellows find that one type is more reliable over the other, given the same maintence?
Currently, Copeland compressor reports that R410A compressors have less failures then any other.

[beenthere]

R410a is $250/lb? Where are you buying it?
miami mike posted that R22 may cost 200 in ten years.
Nothing says r410A won't cost 250 in ten years.

Anybody that things r410A is going to be the same price as it is now, ten years from now is living in a fantasy world.

But enough price discussion in the resi forum.

[Derailer]

Is there a downside to stocking up on R22 before the ban? I'm pretty sure you can still buy R22 cylinders without a license in some states...

Would a contractor be willing to use my R22 to service my HVAC without a lot of hassle or would the accounting and paperwork cause most folks to balk. I understand there is probably some issues similar to installing "customer parts" rather than ones sold/offered by installer, but is there an actual regulatory problem?

[beenthere]

It hasn't been legal to buy R22 in the country without an EPA certification since I believe NOV 14, 1994!

Some companies might use it. Some might use it, and charge you as if they used theirs.
Others would flat out refuse.

[Daltex]

Back to kuryakin, I think the R410A is used in the more efficient units. What kind of SEER or EER rating are you looking at? In Florida, I assume the higher level so maybe the pros can shed some light as to if/where the R22 SEER cut off is?

Just trying to get back to answering your origional question.

[beenthere]

Most brands use R410A in their highest efficiency units.
Trane, how ever, uses R22.

[KoolK]

I was considering a 14 SEER and there is a choice of R22 or 410a.

The beauty of this fourm is getting objective answers because the pro's here aren't the ones selling someing or benefiting directly. I hope you don't favor the higher priced units in here simply because of the profit margin may be better in the real world. I hope you understand me. I really appreaciate fourms like this that are willing to answer the average joe's questions. Thanks.

[hvac-master]

If we consider reallity we do not know the ultimate fate of R410A.

While R410A has been made the refrigerant of choice for many manufacturers we acknowledge that R22 will be discontinued in new products on 1/1/2010. CFC and HCFC refrigerants have been blamed for ozone depletion.

The newer issue is produced with the Kyoto Protocol which discusses global warming. R410A has a global warming potential of 1890 compared to R22 at 1700.

If Al Gore "An Inconvenient Truth" and many other politicians get there way I can assure you that products with high GWP will see a similar fate when they choose to ratify the Kyoto Protocol.

It should be stated that R410A has ~10% greater COP than comparable R22 systems partly due to lower compression ratios.

[beenthere]

It should be stated that R410A has ~10% greater COP than comparable R22 systems partly due to lower compression ratios.

Where does it say a R410A will have a 10% better COP then an R22 heat pump?

[hvac-master]

It should be stated that R410A has ~10% greater COP than comparable R22 systems partly due to lower compression ratios.

Where does it say a R410A will have a 10% better COP then an R22 heat pump?

Mainstream Engineering has produced the "ENVIRONMENTALLY SAFE R-410A SERVICE TECHNIQUES" manual for the R410A certification that they offer. The quote in this manual states "HFC-410A systems exhibit about a 10% increase in the Coefficient of Performance. That means that A/C and Heat Pump systems can be designed to meet the proposed DOE guidelines of 12 to 14 SEER" http://www.epatest.com/R410A/manual/manual.jsp

RSES SAM Manual states "R-410A has demonstrated a 5 to 6% higher energy efficiency rating (EER) than R-22. Its higher cooling capacity permits smaller, more compact units to be used."

[k-fridge]

In ten years when your "new" system is leaking at the evaporator coil and you have to repair or replace the coil you are going to spend $200 per pound of R-22 refrigerant to do so. If your system holds eights pounds....

Ouch!
That's what they said about R-12 too. The price did go up fairly high, then it came back down as the demand for it fell due to replacement blends. You can still buy R-12 off of e-bay for about what R-410 costs.

R-410 probably is a better long term solution, but it will probably cost somewhat more now. If you're going high efficiency, then R-410 is the better choice. If you're buying a cheaper unit, you'll be fine staying with R-22.

[rponson]

There is nothing wrong with either refrigerant performance wise. Practically speaking why would you open yourself to the potential liability of r22. There is no way to predict what the price of a refrigerant on its way out of production will be in the future. You can however assume that since 410a WILL be the dominant refrigerant in the residential and light commercial market for at least next 10 years the prices will be held in check by the market.

I would not be afraid of the R-22 BUT I would be afraid of an HVAC contractor that is not keeping up with the new technology. From a professional standpoint there is not enough of a differance in the 2, not to switch

[beenthere]

Your original post said R410A units have a higher COP.

The units don't. As your second post points out, they use a smaller compressor.
But the COP of the unit is not increased. Nor is the SEER.

The refrigerant is more efficient, but it doesn't make a 13 SEER R410A unit any more efficient then a 13 SEER R22 unit.

[drumstorm]

They said R-22 is bad for the ozone and is now being phased out. If R-410A is bad for global warming, could it be replaced or phased out as well??:confused:

[beenthere]

There currently is no published phase out plan or date of R410A.

All refrigerants have GWP, most of it, comes from the natural gas used to generate the electricty to run the A/C's, and heat pumps.

[hvac-master]

Your original post said R410A units have a higher COP.

The units don't. As your second post points out, they use a smaller compressor.
But the COP of the unit is not increased. Nor is the SEER.

The refrigerant is more efficient, but it doesn't make a 13 SEER R410A unit any more efficient then a 13 SEER R22 unit.


1) Product performance data that I have analyzed indicate that R410A heat pumps operating in heating mode will provide a higher COP than there R22 counterparts at the manufacturer low design conditions of 70 & 17/15.
2) My second post points out that "Its higher cooling capacity permits smaller, more compact units to be used". This statement is directly from the RSES Service Application Manual.
3) The COP and EER of the equipment will increase. No where did I state that SEER would increase.
4) The heating capacity and HSPF of an R410A heat pump at high and low design conditions will exceed that of a R22 system.
5) The refrigerant and oil is more efficient which allows for lower compression ratios.

Let's remember this; When we sell equipment on SEER alone we are selling the consumer efficiency in the cooling season, In our region of the country this is a very small percentage of the time. There is a lot of high SEER heat pump equipment where the HSPF is comparable to the lower SEER counterparts providing very little savings during the heating season.

[beenthere]

Anyway.
Heres the data on a R22, and R410A heat pump, both 2.5 ton. Same HSPF.
R410A at 47*F COP 3.4, R22 at 47*F COP 3.6
R410A at 17*F COP 2.3, R22 at 17*F COP 2.6

The R410A is a York 13 SEER Affinity 8 HSPF
The R22 is a York 13 SEER Latitude 8 HSPF

I won't argue that a R410A can't be made to produce a better COP. I think you'll find that manufacturers are not doing it though.


Check your brands performance charts. your not always getting the 10% better COP.
Plus, you can't always go with the higher COP, because sometimes you need a lower SHR.

Since this is in the resi forum, I said SEER because more people reconize the term SEER better then they do COP.

[model m-man]

Talk with your local contractor and see what they prefer in your area. If they use scare tactic's, find another contractor. Either refrigerant will suffice and neither is getting any cheaper. There are pros and cons for using both. The R-22 phaseout was supposed to see prices start rising as the R-410A fell to current R-22 prices. That hasn't happened & i'll be suprised if it does. Yes, R-22 prices will pass the R-410A in another year or two but that just means they will both be expensive. There will be refrigerant's to keep your system going should you have problems.

Sooner or later R-410 will be phased out as well either by manufacturer's or government and the cycle will start all over again.

[junkhound]

Think when I need to do own house it will be propane in a package unit in a concrete bunker 5 feet from the side of the house with intermediate propane/water/air stage .....

wait, wait, will propane hit $5 # soon also???

[rponson]

Talk with your local contractor and see what they prefer in your area. If they use scare tactic's, find another contractor. Either refrigerant will suffice and neither is getting any cheaper. There are pros and cons for using both. The R-22 phaseout was supposed to see prices start rising as the R-410A fell to current R-22 prices. That hasn't happened & i'll be suprised if it does. Yes, R-22 prices will pass the R-410A in another year or two but that just means they will both be expensive. There will be refrigerant's to keep your system going should you have problems.

Sooner or later R-410 will be phased out as well either by manufacturer's or government and the cycle will start all over again.


The only con for installing 410 is tha the contractor has not bought the tools and is refusing to keep up with the industry. Performance wise there is nothing wrong with either, But the future is here why resist.

[drumstorm]

rponson;1843064 The only con for installing 410 is tha the contractor has not bought the tools and is refusing to keep up with the industry. Performance wise there is nothing wrong with either, But the future is here why resist


That is exactly what I thought of this one Rep selling Rheem & Goodman. He presented a lot of scare tactics against R-410A.