Maytag 21 SEER Question

[Hydrotopia]

Just found out about this site from someone who forwarded it to me from another site where we were talking about efficient air conditioners.

Our a/c service man suggested we buy a 21 SEER Maytag to replace our present home central air conditioner. We live in Southwest Florida where it gets hot in May and gets worse from there. He said our Rheem and air handler were operating at 41% efficiency right now and drawing something like 13 amps instead of 12. The surge protector in this unit caught fire two years ago (good thing I was standing nearby when it did).

Questions:

Our old air conditioner is a Rheem Corsair. I believe a 3 ton. Are the 12 X 12 insulated ducts I see in our attic compatible with a Maytag 21 SEER for full efficiency? Our man said they were.

Are the listed electric efficiences accurate?

Would my putting and extra layer of sheet insulation around the attic ducts improve efficiency?

[adrianf]

How was the 41% percent efficiency determined? Single 12x12 duct is too small for a 3 ton system.

[Hydrotopia]

How was the 41% percent efficiency determined? Single 12x12 duct is too small for a 3 ton system.


I don't know much technical stuff about HVAC. He crawled into our upstairs crawl-space containing the air handler and came out telling us that it was running at 41% efficiency. He said it was because the system works too hard when it gets old and strains the parts and that is why the amps were too high. I can't prove or disprove that - which is why I'm here.

I was worried someone would tell me the 12X12 ducts were too small for a 3 ton. I just went up and measured them after hearing that some people had a good SEER unit installed on inadequate ducts and only got marginal efficiency. He said those ducts were good.

I also see now that the man checked off "Owner declines service on ducts at this time" on the proposal. I assume this clears him from any legal problems for a mismatched system?

Oh, and I should have added that the attic main duct is 12X12 -BUT- I think we have another main duct going to the lower floor.

[adrianf]

I am not sure this company would be my choice just from what you've posted. Do your due diligence. Get other qualified bids, you might find this useful:
http://www.acca.org/Files/?id=186

What's wrong to make it so inefficient? Will the problem be corrected with just replacing the equipment? Again just going on what you have posted I don't think so. Ask them point blank the procedure they used to determine the current 41% performance level and will they do the performance test for the new equipment once installed? Ask what performance level should you expect? Will the level be the same at 8:00 am during the month of February as it will be at 3:00 pm during the month of August? It's really a moving target. but see what they say.

[rponson]

I would like to hear where he came up with the percentage #. He is either very good or full of BS. Most Techs good enough to give you a number like that are going to explain how they got there. Therfore I am inclined to think he is full of BS.

As far as he duct question there is much more info needed to have an opinion

As far as the Maytag 21 SEER if am hearing mixed reviews

[Hydrotopia]

Thanks for your replies it helps me a lot.



Most Techs good enough to give you a number like that are going to explain how they got there.


Ah, he sort of did but when he ran it by me it was greek to me.

The attic main duct running down the center to the room branches is 12X12. I'm almost certain the lower half of the house has a separate second duct because I followed the ducts from the attic and none of them come out on the lower floor.

I'm very interested in the Maytag 21 because the electric savings pay for the extra cost of the unit over its lifetime -AND- saves CO2 to the atmosphere. It also has a 12 year guarantee.

[rponson]

What is the SEER rating for the size unit you are looking at, It is probably similar to other Manufacturers. I would call a Carrier or Trane dealer to get info on their competetive equipment. (I think the Carrier Infinity system is the best on the market) I would not get more than 2 unless they are way far apart.

Like I said I don't know much about the system you are looking to buy. Any system that is fully modulating like this tries to maintain a straight line TEMP and Humidity. All other manufacturers maintain a 3 degree temp swing. There is a cost to maintain that straight line. so even if is less expensive to run it runs more. Just a thaught that has come up in convseration.

Wish I knew more about it

[Skip 2 my lou]

Man this smells like a commissioned box-changer.

41 is a good number though.

(90% of the systems do this half the time. Gotta remember that one.)

[Hydrotopia]

I spoke to him again and he said duct size is only relevant to 'static pressure' - which, he explained, was the relative return pressure in the ducts. He said the scale went from zero up and that 3.0 was ideal. We came in at 3.1, but I forgot to tell him I closed my vent in my room and therefore it could have been 3.0 (or ideal). He said the 3 ton 21 SEER Maytag would work in our ducts at 3.1 test. He added that some of the ducts he tested in other houses came in at 7.0 static pressure. I also found out our well-insulated ducts were sealed tight 2 years ago.

I guess we'll go with it. (Cha-ching!)


On the Maytag graph our Rheem 12 Seer was costing $1000-$1200 a year in electricity. Our bills verify that with a 3000KwH August. The 21 SEER has the special thermostat, variable speed fan, compressor etc. So it came in around $550 a year in power. Since the 16 SEER was (about half the price of the 21 SEER) the system pays for the extra cost for the 21 SEER upgrade in power savings over its 12 year warrantied lifespan. That is a no-brainer since it comes with a CO2 saving benefit to the environment.

As an aside, I managed to have an 860KwH April by using CFL's and turning-off lights. Our power is 9.7 a kilowatt here in southwest Florida.

[Advanced Response]

Did you see him perform these test?

I think he is BSing you... An ideal total system external static pressure is .5 in w.c. at desired cfm which would deliver proper airflow thru the system and not be noisy.. I like to have no more than .7 total ESP static..

I have yet to see a system a 3.0 in. w.c. TESP.. Man would that be a noisy system..

How a technician find the current static pressure of the system is to test the return static after the filter before the blower and add the supply static that is after the blower but before the evaporator..(Gas system)
Heatpump is after the filter before the evaporator and then add after the outlet of the airhandler(airhandlers already include the evaporator coil pressure drop).

Then this current static pressure needs to be translated to a cfm that the current airhandler/gas furnace is currently producing.. I use a fan chart when possible...

Then this current cfm/static that your current system is running needs to be compared to the new replacement system cfm requirements...

Confusing huh?
Who says we don't use laws of fluid dynamics! and many others..

Goodluck
J

[beenthere]

I think he may have meant .30, and .31. Doubtfull your old system has a blower that can ,ove much air against 3"wc.
If he only measured the static of the return, thats a problem. Thats only have the reading you need.
Next, even if that is the total static pressure. Without knowing CFM, don't know if the ducts are big enough.
I realize that there is a loss when things like this get relayed between between people.
In therory, if you have 1- 12x12, and 1- 12x10, it can handle the air flow.
Of course, we don't know what size your return is. Nor its length.

What size is your current A/C.
if your current A/C is keeping your house cool, and onlt operating at 41% efficiency, does that mean you only need an A/C 41% the size of your current.

Get other estimates!

[Hydrotopia]

Yeah, I was trying to repeat from memory. He did say .31 and .30.

And he did explain the suppy and return measurements just like you did with the before blower reading and before evaporator etc.

If it helps our current system is dead quiet. I looked through our files and the original system was a 3 ton Rheem Corsair 12 SEER "split system".

Interestingly one of our service receipts says ".50" for static pressure and another visit says ".40"

[beenthere]

Those readings could be showing you the difference between a dirty air filter and a clean air filter. Also, weather the coil is wet or dry will change the reading.
Placement of the probe can change the reading also.

[hvaclover]

Norydyne dealer here. The manufacturer of Maytag 21 SEER ac.

For one thing you are going to need a kit added to your existing equip.

The Maytag uses an IQ system that communicates with a matched furn by Nordyne that has an ECM blower(variable speed).

This system is rated up to .5 ESP. That is half an inch of water coLUME of resistance. If you have three inches of ESP you are way over and the system will not work.

If you don't have a nordyne AH or furnace, I don't know the the in door IQ kit will do you any good.

BTW .5 esp IS THE MAX THAT MOST RESISTANCE TO AIR FLOW THEY ALLOW WITH OUT VOIDING WARRANTY. MOST WELL DESIGNED DUCT SYSTEMS SHOOT FOR NO MORE THAN .3 INCH ESP.

ON MY OWN PERSONAL DUCT CALCULATOR I USE .1 INCHS OF STATIC.

[beenthere]

I've never seen a ductulator marked with .1" static.

Who made yours.
Mine shows FR. Which tells you nothing about how much static pressure the duct will have.

[Hydrotopia]

So I assume our .31 reading for static pressure was what you say is 1/3rd of an inch water column resistance?

[beenthere]

Yes.

[hvaclover]

I've never seen a ductulator marked with .1" static.

Who made yours.
Mine shows FR. Which tells you nothing about how much static pressure the duct will have.

My bad.

It is .1 friction per 100 ft.

But I meant what I said about the max on the Maytag 21 SEER IQ vs being .5

If you design to this resistance there is no room for error.

I have a 3 1/2 ton 13 seer with ECM with a 8x14 trunk. It works well but it is at the upper
limits of the max operating range.

[hvaclover]

Yeah, I was trying to repeat from memory. He did say .31 and .30.

And he did explain the suppy and return measurements just like you did with the before blower reading and before evaporator etc.

If it helps our current system is dead quiet. I looked through our files and the original system was a 3 ton Rheem Corsair 12 SEER "split system".

Interestingly one of our service receipts says ".50" for static pressure and another visit says ".40"

Sorry guy, didn't see that corrected post.

Your good to go on that maytag as long as you use the matching indoor eletronics.

They used shielded data cable to as not to be distrubed by out electrical interference.

Good luck.

[rponson]

I've never seen a ductulator marked with .1" static.

Who made yours.
Mine shows FR. Which tells you nothing about how much static pressure the duct will have.

I have one from Trane and one from ACCA that shows .1 friction loss

[beenthere]

I have one from Trane and one from ACCA that shows .1 friction loss
Friction loss is not static pressure, as was originally implied.

He corrected it already.

[udarrell]

I spoke to him again and he said duct size is only relevant to 'static pressure' - which, he explained, was the relative return pressure in the ducts. He said the scale went from zero up and that 3.0 was ideal. We came in at 3.1, but I forgot to tell him I closed my vent in my room and therefore it could have been 3.0 (or ideal). He said the 3 ton 21 SEER Maytag would work in our ducts at 3.1 test. He added that some of the ducts he tested in other houses came in at 7.0 static pressure. I also found out our well-insulated ducts were sealed tight 2 years ago.
-----------------------------------
Are you sure he does not mean .31" & .7" rather than 3.1 & 7.0?
-----------------------------------
I guess we'll go with it. (Cha-ching!)


On the Maytag graph our Rheem 12 Seer was costing $1000-$1200 a year in electricity. Our bills verify that with a 3000KwH August. The 21 SEER has the special thermostat, variable speed fan, compressor etc. So it came in around $550 a year in power. Since the 16 SEER was (about half the price of the 21 SEER) the system pays for the extra cost for the 21 SEER upgrade in power savings over its 12 year warrantied lifespan. That is a no-brainer since it comes with a CO2 saving benefit to the environment.

As an aside, I managed to have an 860KwH April by using CFL's and turning-off lights. Our power is 9.7 a kilowatt here in southwest Florida.

In SW Florida annual AC runtime is around 2800 hours.
The Tampa/Sarasota area summer design is 91 dry bulb over 77 wet bulb or around 53% relative humidity. Many hours of runtime may be well above that 53% humidity factor.

ALL of these comments are only my personal viewpoint as a longtime tech.
"I personally," would want an AC system that performed optimally in those weather conditions. I would want a lower suction pressure equaling a colder evaporator coil with the system sized for long run cycles to wring out the humidity.

Then "I would" spend my money on reducing to a minimum, the humid air infiltration & reducing the the heatload. That is the way I would spend my investment money to get the most comfort for the return on my dollar.

A 21-seer system performs best in a dry hot climate; IMO laboratory conditions are required to come close to a 21-seer performance.

For optimal comfort & efficiency, do NOT oversize the equipment in high humidity zones & properly size the duct system for optimally efficient airflow.

I cool an old 1937 farm home with loads of old windows the first floor area of 850 to 900-sq.ft with a half-ton 6,000-BTUH 9.7-EER window unit. It does a perfect job in even 104-F Heat Index days. Optimal Airflow is how it is done!

http://www.udarrell.com/airconditioner_current_temperature_btuh_charting.h tml

[beenthere]

Whats the temp in your house on those 104*F heat index days.

[udarrell]

Whats the temp in your house on those 104*F heat index days.
Beenthere, I know this is difficult to believe however I have witnesses & this has been the recorded result for many years of experience.

This is from the linked page from my absolute accurate records of those conditions & temperatures:


"This is Thursday, 06/23/05; at 6-pm it was still 92-F with a heat index of 97-F. My little 6,000-BTUH 9.7 EER quiet window unit had the humidity at 52% with unconditioned air coming down the stairwell, the temperature in the living room at 74-F, in the kitchen at 76-F. That is solid comfort on a very hot day! It was as good or better later on a 112-F heat index day!

This summer of 2006 with a Heat Index of 104, it brought the indoor temp way down to 74-F and humidity around 55% or less.

It held those temperatures all day and with the window unit set on low speed fan and my fan set on medium and then on low later in the day. The Condenser temp is NOT accurate on a room AC & can NOT be used even as an accurate comparison of what it is putting out due to the variability of the slinger-ring throwing water on the condenser coils! I cool my old 1937 Lower & upper floors. A Half-Ton for the entire first floor. I cool with a 5,900Btu/hr upper floor bedroom hallway & bathroom.

The actual Total electric bill summertime with electric range, hot water heater 2 TV's & high wattage PC average around 40 to $47. "

At lower (74-F) temperatures it is more difficult to get the humidity to 50% or below.

The comfort level is perfect because I use two large 20" floor fans to move the air through the rooms. Use the link in my prior post.

I also have trouble believing it performs that well, however, I cannot argue with all the thermometers, & several humidity gages that I use.

Those storm windows have small air leaks that I should address.
It is costing me a fortune in these SW WI winters for fuel oil! - Darrell

[beenthere]

I was just curious what temp you could maintain.

Personally, I like my place at 72*F with an RH of 48%. Yep, I like it cold.
Took a lot of playing with the blower. I got 16050 Sq Ft. and 2.5 tons, which is oversized.
Might be a 2.5 ton HP before winter though. I got oil heat too. :)

[ibis1]

Hydro:

For what it's worth I have a 21 SEER (3 ton) IQ drive unit. The unit is very good at removing humidity, maintaining even temps and is extreamly quiet. I live in SE Florida so the unit runs almost continually in hot and humid weather. It is so quiet on the first stage (900 rpm) you really have to check to see if it's running. Good luck with whatever you go with. ibis

[Hydrotopia]

ALL of these comments are only my personal viewpoint as a longtime tech.
"I personally," would want an AC system that performed optimally in those weather conditions. I would want a lower suction pressure equaling a colder evaporator coil with the system sized for long run cycles to wring out the humidity.

Our 3 ton Rheem provided a comfortably dry humidity in the worst of summer. It gets quite equatorial here in mid-summer. There were times when I thought it could be a little cooler and drier but our house is on pilings so it shifts creating leaks around the many doors designed into the Florida 'cracker house' design that was originally meant to have lots of air flow before the days of air conditioning (hard to seal).



For what it's worth I have a 21 SEER (3 ton) IQ drive unit.


Glad to hear that. Has the electricity use performed as they said? (That's the main reason we bought it)

Installation already set for wednesday.

[ibis1]

HYDRO:

A fairly close estimate would be 30 to 35%. Ambient temps vary so it's not cut and dry, but you should realize a savings in this range with a proper install and good duct work. As the humidity should be lower, you'll be able to increase your indoor temp and be as comfortable as before. Play around with the stat to find your ideal settings. Again good luck! ibis

[hvaclover]

i would not want to be the untrained guy who tried to service that beast.

[gary_g]

I got 16050 Sq Ft. and 2.5 tons, which is oversized. Might be a 2.5 ton HP before winter though. I got oil heat too. :)

Your electricity prices should be decent in Lancaster. Baltimore is almost 14 cents per kw-hr delivered.

I think the 16,050 sq ft is a typo.

[Hydrotopia]

i would not want to be the untrained guy who tried to service theat beast.


They say the unit is so well-built that it doesn't need much service. It also has a 12 year warranty.

30-35% is good but we need 45% under our present bills to meet their claimed efficiency.


.

[hvaclover]

They say the unit is so well-built that it doesn't need much service. It also has a 12 year warranty.

30-35% is good but we need 45% under our present bills to meet their claimed efficiency.


.

My point is that as a dealer for the IQ ac i know how complicated that unit is. (but then anything as cutting edge as this always is. No worry there.)

If a problem arises the guy who works on it better be up to snuff.

Plenty of guys are willing to experiment on equipment to gain knowledge rather then spend money on training.


Is the warranty thru the factory or a third party insurer?

[Hydrotopia]

Is the warranty thru the factory or a third party insurer?


Maytag factory.

[beenthere]

Your electricity prices should be decent in Lancaster. Baltimore is almost 14 cents per kw-hr delivered.

I think the 16,050 sq ft is a typo.
LOL... Yes it is.

1650 sq ft.

[ibis1]

HYDRO:

You may see a 45% reduction in kw usage, but most numbers that are thrown out there are based on optimal conditions, which is not what most real world conditions are. You will see substantial savings and an increased comfort level. Enjoy! ibis

[Hydrotopia]

The new Maytag 21 is in now. They took all day yesterday installing it. I don't like the floppy silver foil-covered round tube ducts that go from the unit to some of the old ducts and tape-in to the duct rectangle from a tube. That looks like a restriction of flow right there, but what do I know? And the heater doesn't work, they're coming back to fix it. The good part is the supervisor said he has the same unit and it saves him over his old 12 SEER by $85 a month. We also had a 12 SEER so that sounds good to me. We have to wait til tomorrow for the mastic duct sealer to set before we can turn it on.

The supervisor answered one of my questions. Yes, you can do half your system with better ducts and appreciate better performance. You just need a balancer.

One of our intake vents had a desk in front of it that was partially blocking it. The vent and filter really needed cleaning. I Windex-ed the whole deal and will now be replacing that filter every month or two seeing how they removed the air media yearly-change filter we had in the air handler for better performance.


The 'IQ Drive' thermostat is something. It has all sorts of sensors and programmable features. It even tells how much power the air conditioner is using at the time.

You can lose as much as a half ton through wide cracks in doors and windows.

[udarrell]

What is the SEER rating for the size unit you are looking at, It is probably similar to other Manufacturers. I would call a Carrier or Trane dealer to get info on their competitive equipment. (I think the Carrier Infinity system is the best on the market) I would not get more than 2 unless they are way far apart.

Like I said I don't know much about the system you are looking to buy. Any system that is fully modulating like this tries to maintain a straight line TEMP and Humidity. All other manufacturers maintain a 3 degree temp swing. There is a cost to maintain that straight line. so even if is less expensive to run it runs more. Just a thought that has come up in conversation.

Wish I knew more about it
"For cooling," I personally don't want a one degree temp differential room TH.
Nor do I see any need for a cooling mode TH anticipator. The idea of close room temp tolerances is a huge loser on nearly all worthy efficiency & payback counts.

Even with a properly sized AC, under light load conditions there can be too much short-cycling for efficient operation; plus short-cycling causes excessive wear & tear on equipment & components.

I want an adjustable on/off TH temp differential from one to 3 or 4 degrees, with .5 half degree adjustable increments. With low humidity & by using fans you will produce "a human comfort zone," within those several degrees of temp variation.

You have to discuss this in clear terms with the customers' & get a contract agreement in writing to avoid any blow-back, ha!

Of course, "Temp swing" is different from "TH on/off differential," I believe a 4 degree temp swing is largely applicable to the heating mode.

I read that, "A temperature swing of 4 degrees F is the specification required by the U.S. EPA "to achieve an Energy Star rating for electronic programmable thermostats."

Guess Energy Star has a lot caveats toward TH qualifications'. - Darrell

[ibis1]

Hydro:
If your using FPL for power, the unit should qualify for a $1170.00 rebate. Check with your installing contractor for details. ibis

[beenthere]

The Maytag with its inverter technology won't short cycle like a 2 stage or single stage can.

[Hydrotopia]

Maytag 21 has an inverter that converts to DC.



Hydro:
If your using FPL for power, the unit should qualify for a $1170.00 rebate. Check with your installing contractor for details


We got screwed because Lee County Electric Coop doesn't offer it.

Ran it yesterday for a few hours. Nice and dry. Unit isn't that quiet outside, but that isn't a big deal.

My problem is the "hold" programming feature keeps pulling the temperature setting back to what it thinks it should be according to the pre-sets. It has an excellent feature in the thermostat where you can set different temperatures for different times of the day - like wake up time, higher setting for when you are at work, cooler right before you get home, vacation settings etc. The thermostat screen color goes red and flashes when you have a problem. It even told us "charging" when the guys were outside pumping fluid into the main unit. I'd like to know how to bypass the 'hold' program and just set it for a certain temperature?


Some of the cooling fins or sinks had that smashed look like somebody hit it with something. You could see it through the cover. Call me neurotic but I want the cooling grill perfect. The guys were probably uncareful.

[beenthere]

Program the set back times all to the ame temp, then you don't have to use hold.

[hvaclover]

Maytag 21 has an inverter that converts to DC.





We got screwed because Lee County Electric Coop doesn't offer it.

Ran it yesterday for a few hours. Nice and dry. Unit isn't that quiet outside, but that isn't a big deal.

My problem is the "hold" programming feature keeps pulling the temperature setting back to what it thinks it should be according to the pre-sets. It has an excellent feature in the thermostat where you can set different temperatures for different times of the day - like wake up time, higher setting for when you are at work, cooler right before you get home, vacation settings etc. The thermostat screen color goes red and flashes when you have a problem. It even told us "charging" when the guys were outside pumping fluid into the main unit. I'd like to know how to bypass the 'hold' program and just set it for a certain temperature?


Some of the cooling fins or sinks had that smashed look like somebody hit it with something. You could see it through the cover. Call me neurotic but I want the cooling grill perfect. The guys were probably uncareful.

SAY FING WHAT? A BRUIESD CONDENSER?

How bad is it? That is top of the line stuff. If somebody bruised that puppy I'd be asking for some money backy.

Can you post a pick.

Dang, that's like picking up a new caddy with scratched paint.

[ibis1]

Hydro:

As for the thermostat, it's easy, under temp, select the temp you want to maintain and hit the "center" button. That confirms the temp or it will revert back to a previous or default temp. Then select "hold" permanent.
This will lock that temp until you decide to change it. As for the ding. hvaclover is right. Talk to the contractor, you did not buy a scratch and dent unit. He should also spend some time with you and the thermostat, that's part of what your paying for. If you have any questions you would like to ask me directly, my email is in my profile. Good luck, ibis

[Hydrotopia]

The service technician came out and tried to repair the heater which never worked from the start. I give him credit for being honest when he told us he had no idea how to work the IQ Drive. He called the office while I listened as the supervisor ran him through it. Turns out the interface board has problems probably because they used the old thermostat wire instead of the Maytag one. The tech said it needed a "ground shield". I asked him if the Maytag specifications said to use the Maytag wire but he didn't really answer. He did say they would order a new board and wire and bring them out. I'm wondering to myself if the supervisor who also has the Maytag 21 left his old wire in or used the Maytag wire. I'm guessing he probably has the Maytag one. Not happy about this.

I'd have to lift the stainless steel cover off the outside unit to photograph the ding in the condenser grill. I'm really particular about bruised grills because they look nasty and probably cut down on perfect airflow. It wasn't that big, only about 2 by 4 inches at most. But I would like to straighten it some with a needle-nosed pliers.

Thanks "beenthere". That was what I was thinking too. BUT - they should have an easy control to bypass the 'hold' program. The user manual doesn't have this and that's an obvious flaw on Maytag's behalf unless I'm just ignorant of a way around it. What the thermostat is doing is running itself through the hold program sequences all the time. So when it comes to the set time on the program it goes to what temperature is pre-programmed there. The thermostat indicates "next hold time 5pm" flashing on the screen. I want that to disappear and just set 74 degrees and have it stay there. What happens is I set 74* and I come back after 5pm and suddenly see it is at 78*.

Minus points on all this stuff.

[ibis1]

Hydro:

Read my post. It's very simple to bypass all preset programs. They should have left you a homeowner's operating manual. If not insist. Also the wires from the thermostat to the air handler have to be shielded to avoid any interference, as they are communications wires as well. ibis

[hvaclover]

The service technician came out and tried to repair the heater which never worked from the start. I give him credit for being honest when he told us he had no idea how to work the IQ Drive. He called the office while I listened as the supervisor ran him through it. Turns out the interface board has problems probably because they used the old thermostat wire instead of the Maytag one. The tech said it needed a "ground shield". I asked him if the Maytag specifications said to use the Maytag wire but he didn't really answer. He did say they would order a new board and wire and bring them out. I'm wondering to myself if the supervisor who also has the Maytag 21 left his old wire in or used the Maytag wire. I'm guessing he probably has the Maytag one. Not happy about this.

I'd have to lift the stainless steel cover off the outside unit to photograph the ding in the condenser grill. I'm really particular about bruised grills because they look nasty and probably cut down on perfect airflow. It wasn't that big, only about 2 by 4 inches at most. But I would like to straighten it some with a needle-nosed pliers.

Thanks "beenthere". That was what I was thinking too. BUT - they should have an easy control to bypass the 'hold' program. The user manual doesn't have this and that's an obvious flaw on Maytag's behalf unless I'm just ignorant of a way around it. What the thermostat is doing is running itself through the hold program sequences all the time. So when it comes to the set time on the program it goes to what temperature is pre-programmed there. The thermostat indicates "next hold time 5pm" flashing on the screen. I want that to disappear and just set 74 degrees and have it stay there. What happens is I set 74* and I come back after 5pm and suddenly see it is at 78*.

Minus points on all this stuff.

AAArrrgh

I told you it needed shielded data cable to stop interference.

Read my previous post.

[Hydrotopia]

They better show up with that cable when they come back...

[Hydrotopia]

Problems. I thought I smelled a faint electrical fire smell after they installed it. The computer is right next to the crawl-space door so I get a very faint wiff of electrical fire smell when I'm on it. The phone jack goes into the wall very close to where the thermostat wire is and now that phone is out. The air conditioner was working before, but since the serviceman came to fix the heater now it doesn't work too and we get a red screen on the IQ Drive when we try to turn it on. Waiting for replacement interface board and Maytag thermostat wire to arrive from contractor.

[hvaclover]

They should have had the cable when they installed it.

Are these guys factory trained?

Are they even Maytag dealers?

[ibis1]

Sounds like this is their first IQ DRIVE install. Yes, they should have known that you must use shielded cable. The distributor is not suppose to sell that equipment to contractors that have not attended the class on the differences between these and conventional units. Ask to see their credentials. What basis did you use to pick these guys anyway? Sounds like their having fun with their on the job training. ibis

[hvaclover]

Just work with these guys. No sense getting confrontational they could just blow you off.

If they have been showing up that is a sign they care and want to make it right.

We were warned as dealers that the system would require a good deal more in the way of careful installation.

[Hydrotopia]

I think the service guy who admitted he was clueless about the IQ Drive said two of their guys had been trained on it. Don't ask me how they will get the new wire through the wall? It seems fairly locked in by solid walls. I hope whatever was wrong with that cable didn't knock out the phone because that sounds like another giant problem.

[Hydrotopia]

The guy is over here now. He replaced the interface board. He took off the thermostat control downstairs in order to bring it upstairs and test it directly into the unit therefore telling us if the problem is the old wire. Only he had to go back to the office to get a "controller". I'll let you know what happened. Oh yeah, when he took off the thermostat it had a little burn mark inside from something shorting. He suspects something might have been cross-wired.

I told him we would be happy to run the Maytag cable right down the wall beneath the air handler and put the thermostat in that room as long as we have an independent Maytag cable.


When I asked him if he was just going to burn-out a new board he said it was impossible that the wire would burn out the interface board.

[beenthere]

Well, what happened.

[Hydrotopia]

He did all sorts of tests and "couldn't get a heart beat". He suspects whatever caused the burn in the thermostat might have burned-out the motor. When he was testing the new interface board it hummed and smoked and I saw a fire glow on the board. He quickly turned off the power.

He told me he was going to replace everything in that area including the interface board, wiring, and motor tomorrow with new Maytag parts. I asked him if it was fair to give us a "gutted and repaired brand new air conditioner" and maybe he should just take the whole handler unit out and replace it with new? He said Maytag warranties parts but not labor so he couldn't do that.

Upon further thought - Maytag thoroughly tests their equipment before sending it out, so it had to be them and their installation that caused the problem/damage. Since the heater never worked that seems like evidence that THEY screwed-up the installation so therefore THEY should cover any labor costs and give us a new unit.

He said he tested ohms, voltage etc in the thermostat wire and that nothing was wrong on that end and that Maytag said the old wire could be used in poor access cases. He said perhaps some wires touched that shouldn't have in the handler.

[beenthere]

Hopefully, they recheck everything brfoe powering it up again.

[hvaclover]

Quoting Nordyne tech service "THe 23 seer is very unforgiving about wiring.".

What's this talk about labor charges? They just put it in and it should be on their dime.

[Hydrotopia]

The service tech came back today and put in a whole new blower assembly module that included the interface board and a new motor. He said he took a new Maytag air handler out of the factory box and took the whole section out. He then took our entire section out and swapped it. That was easiest as far as unplugging and plugging things. The outside compressor unit needed a new interface board too. He thinks some wires got crossed somehow and that was a rare thing. He swapped everything in the affected areas.

Works fine now and the heater works too. He also gave us a new thermostat.

He never replaced the thermostat wire. It works OK now. He said if it shows interference he'll replace it.

[ibis1]

I would have a little chat with the owner of the company. He should be involved at this stage. Nordyne warrantees all defective parts and the labor to install them, but not the installation itself. Thats on the contractor. Speak to the owner. The distributor may want to send out a contractor thats much more familiar with the install process to rectify this unfortunate situation. ibis

[Hydrotopia]

The distributor may want to send out a contractor thats much more familiar with the install process to rectify this unfortunate situation.


Already done. Read the post below.


Much satisfied with this air conditioner now. You can tell it is a great air conditioner right away. Very dry and comfortable at higher settings. Comfort level of old 12 SEER Rheem was 74 degrees or less on setting. Maytag 78 or 79 for same comfort level.

Service rating for installation: Poor

Rating for repair: Very good; good explanation to customer; good company backing of work, and prompt.

Maytag 21 SEER: Above excellent.


Outside unit very quiet when running on low. Slightly quieter than average on high. Runs on low a lot.

[Jack2007]

Problems. I thought I smelled a faint electrical fire smell after they installed it. The computer is right next to the crawl-space door so I get a very faint wiff of electrical fire smell when I'm on it. The phone jack goes into the wall very close to where the thermostat wire is and now that phone is out. The air conditioner was working before, but since the serviceman came to fix the heater now it doesn't work too and we get a red screen on the IQ Drive when we try to turn it on. Waiting for replacement interface board and Maytag thermostat wire to arrive from contractor.
Wonder if he had the IQ Drive hooked up to the phone??:D
.

[Hydrotopia]

Wonder if he had the IQ Drive hooked up to the phone??


Come to think of it, I thought it was strange that the thermostat asked me to get a loaf of bread, some milk and eggs...

[ibis1]

Glad to hear your up and running! Enjoy your new unit! ibis

[hvaclover]

Wonder if he had the IQ Drive hooked up to the phone??:D
.

They have a telepnic interface that allows soft wear updates to the interface:rolleyes:

[Jack2007]

They have a telepnic interface that allows soft wear updates to the interface:rolleyes:
I'll bet Bill Gates had something to do with THAT.
Hope the software doesn't go the way of XP. :eek:
.

[Jack2007]

HYDROTOPIA

If you don't mind, I have a question I can't put on the board.

Please email me. (addy in profile)

.

[hvaclover]

~Snicker~

Thats one conversation I know will be interesting.

[docholiday]

If you live in SW florida, SEER means nothing. What they arent telling you is how SEER is calculated.

SEER= Input watts/output btu's at 82 degrees outside through simulation (that word is used loosely). for multistage units, a bin is used.

For multistage equipment, 66.1% of the SEER calculation is done at 77 degrees and below (Yes, thats outdoor temps). The reason is because SEER considers off cycles based on the average US temp, not Florida. Im not sure about you but at 77, my unit is off more than it's on. All systems are efficienct when off. Simulation is through each mfg's homemade software. You cannot go to staples and buy simulation software, there are only 7 mfg's and each one has his own software.

EER is your hot weather efficiency (95 outside). This is the efficiency of the unit running full time. (as you maight expect in Florida).

Why dont you concern yourself with EER's?

[docholiday]

I just looked that up. The 21 SEER is available in 3 ton and 4 ton. Unless you need the 3 ton with a commendable 14 eer, the 4 ton runs 12.6.

You can achieve that 12.6 with a good solid 16 SEER unit in many cases. You seem to be investigating things, peel back the onion and look into your best efficiency for the buck. Anything with a 16 SEER rating is going to have an ECM and multiple stages, just be careful.

You remember the rolling black outs and brown outs in California? Well California was paying huge rebates for people to install "high SEER" systems. When their power issues didnt become better they found out what SEER really meant and sued ARI for EER publication. This happened last February and many "high seer" models are now exposed for what they really are. In otherwords there are 16 and 19 seer systems out there with lower EER's than most 13 SEER. Why? Because you, your contractor and your community were sold on SEER without asking for a definition.

use the ahridirectory.org site and finish your homework. If you dont do it all, you mgiht as well have done no research.

[beenthere]

A lot of Florida is listed in low 90's, and very high humidity.
With a lot of it having more then twice the cooing hours under 85 then above 85.(And some with more under 80, then above 80)
At what duty cycle do you think EER is better then SEER. Since at 75% of design load, 3 CPH stat setting, systems will still be 15 on 10 off, 15 on 10 off, 15 on 10 off.

[ibis1]

Tonight I will post my last three months kw usage from this year compared to last year. Temps vary, but it should give a good ballpark figure over that period of time. ibis

[docholiday]

duty cycle and 75% might play into it, but with multistage equipment, running time is going to be closer to 100% (durning the day anyways) since first stage is generally below 75%. Sure at night, you have off cycles but efficiency only really means something when the unit is actually on.

[gary_g]

If you live in SW florida, SEER means nothing. What they arent telling you is how SEER is calculated.

SEER= Input watts/output btu's at 82 degrees outside through simulation (that word is used loosely). for multistage units, a bin is used.

For multistage equipment, 66.1% of the SEER calculation is done at 77 degrees and below (Yes, thats outdoor temps). The reason is because SEER considers off cycles based on the average US temp, not Florida. Im not sure about you but at 77, my unit is off more than it's on. All systems are efficienct when off. Simulation is through each mfg's homemade software. You cannot go to staples and buy simulation software, there are only 7 mfg's and each one has his own software.

EER is your hot weather efficiency (95 outside). This is the efficiency of the unit running full time. (as you maight expect in Florida).

Why dont you concern yourself with EER's?

Doc:

There are many pros on this site who do not understand SEER or the way it is calculated. They just think that a high number is better. You certainly get it, and it is refreshing to read.

If 66% of the value of the SEER calculation were weighted at 85F outdoors, instead of 77F and below, then I would consider it a good representative number.

Here are the outdoor temps followed by the weight% that the temps have in the SEER calc (for a variable speed fan in the air handler):

67F----21.4%
72F----23.1%
77F----21.6%
82F----16.1%
87F----10.4%
92F-----5.2%
97F-----1.8%
102F-----.4%
-------------
Total = 100%

I don't run my a/c at all (in Baltimore) when it's 77F or less outside. I open up the windows, run ceiling fans, even run the air handler fan. So 66.1% of the weighted value of the SEER calc is useless to me.

EER is ALWAYS meaningful at all temperatues. System btu's / condenser power draw is a straight-up calc. No fudge factors, weighted averages, or fantasy-land usage based on outdoor temps. As outdoor temps drop, EER increases since there are more btus produced for less power consumed. Since SEER is based on lower outdoor temps, the SEER# is always higher than the EER#, but the SEER# is a bullsh%t number.

Take care.

[docholiday]

Thanks for posting the bin numbers, I chose not to but wondered how many people thought I was making it up. Thanks for supporting the truth. It's a crying shame more people, even in the industry dont know.

If you live in Michigan, New York or Washington state, stick to SEER. If you are in the south, stick to EER and if you are in the middle, consider both.

There's no doubt a point in EER means a whole lot more than a point in SEER for the vast majority of us.

I'll also bet that most dont know that the only tested combination is the highest sales volume match and that aftermarket coils arent even tested (some may be but generally it's all done through simulation) and they are allowed more error%.

[beenthere]

Manufacturer is allowed 5%.
Aftermarket is allowed 10%.

I know how the test is done. Some people just think that an A/C doesn't cycle when its 90* outside.

And if you do an actual cost comparison, I find SEER much closer then EER. Even if I break the bin data down to do it for each temp set.

You'll find some members on this board don't know how to do a cost comparison. But tout EER based on just reading the ARI test method, and have no pratical training or experience in the trade.

When someone does EER cost comparisons for my area that show more accuracy at 90 and 95 degrees then SEER. I'll consider it.

[BaldLoonie]

21% of the time at 67 ambient?????

[docholiday]

First I hope you arent suggesting that I dont have practical training.

Second, the homeowner is in Florida and this is about him and where the vast majority of the AC systems in the US are sold (Southeast). Show me a properly sized multistage AC unit that cycles off when it's 90 or better yet 95. Single stage is another story.

Third, SEER is a simulation test in a test cell only. EER is aslo a test cell test, but at the same ratings used for ARI conditions with no simulation. There is no way to test it in the field and short of using mythical amps, calculations in the field cant even come close.

[docholiday]

21% of the time at 67 ambient?????

Yep

[beenthere]

[QUOTE=docholiday;1858066]First I hope you arent suggesting that I dont have practical training.

LOL... No I wasn't Doc. :)

Can't tell you how 2 stage are set up in the southeast.
Stat CPH settings effect weather a single or 2 stage of the same BTU and same S&L capacities will shut off at 95, based on it having enough BTU's to shut off.

Jacksonville FL. Bins percents.

65 to 70, 16.57%
70 to 75, 22.49%
75 to 80, 28.05%
80 to 85, 16.06%
85 to 90, 10.27%
90 to 95, 05.35%
95 to 100, 01.18%
100 to 105, 00.03%



If you eliminate the 65 to 70 bin data


70 to 75, 26.95% SEER base 72F----23.1%
75 to 80, 33.62% SEER base 77F----21.6%
80 to 85, 19.25% SEER base 82F----16.1%
85 to 90, 12.31% SEER base 87F----10.4%
90 to 95, 06.41% SEER base 92F-----5.2%
95 to 100, 01.42% SEER base 97F-----1.8%
100 to 105, 00.04% SEER base 102F-----.4%

SEER is not weighted out of line for the temps of many southern areas.

The high humidity of those southern places makes it feel likes its above 90 more then it is. The vast majority of the cooling season, its a lot lower.



Not saying the OP is from Jacksonville, just the area I grabbed.

[Hydrotopia]

Fort Myers.


All I know is the outside unit is taller (more vertical) than other air conditioners because it has more condenser in order to achieve its dryness/cooling/efficiency capabilities. We have to look into tighter hurricane strapping because of this vertical exposure.

Guys, what we are talking is what I will see on the monthly electric bill. We had an August bill last year of over 3000 KwHs at nearly ten cents per, so I'll try to give an accurate post later this summer with temperatures, humidity and cost. (We have switced to compact fluorescents so that should be partly responsible)

The whole reason we bought 21 SEER is because the electricity savings pay for the difference between 21 SEER and 16. And especially 21 and our old 12.

[ibis1]

FPL kw usage as follows:

02/08=823
03/08=833
04/08=863

02/07=905
03/07=1035
04/07=1527

Total 3 month usage 08=2519 07=3467

ibis

[Jack2007]

FPL kw usage as follows:

02/08=823
03/08=833
04/08=863

02/07=905
03/07=1035
04/07=1527

Total 3 month usage 08=2519 07=3467

ibis
Is that the ONLY change????

I'm using 50% more electric/ month @ 0.16/KWH OUCH!!

.

[ibis1]

My old unit was a 25 year old Rheem 11 EER. I also had new duct work installed, as I did not want to run my new unit through duct work that was almost 40 years old. ibis

[gary_g]

Jacksonville FL. Bins percents.

65 to 70, 16.57%
70 to 75, 22.49%
75 to 80, 28.05%
80 to 85, 16.06%
85 to 90, 10.27%
90 to 95, 05.35%
95 to 100, 01.18%
100 to 105, 00.03%


So if he doesn't run the a/c at < 75F outside temp, the system is off 39% of the cooling season.

[beenthere]

If he doesn't run it below 75* OD temp, he has a dehumidifier running. He's in a high humidity area.

And 44&#37; of the cooling season is still betweem 75 and 85, and less then 17% above 85*F.
Which would mean that if he only uses it at 75 and above, less then 28% of his run time would be at OD temps above 85*F. More then 71% of the time it would be used his A/C would be cycling on and off.

[Hydrotopia]

The humidity down here is equatorial starting in mid-May (right about now) to November. A good six months. A dedicated conservation person needs very little climate control for the other 6 months which really saves on costs and makes the efficiency of the cooling unit mean more. We have very little heating cost down here.

[hvaclover]

Hydro,

I am glad things worked out for you. That's a sweet piece of technolgy you got there.

I don't know if you'll ever recoup ROI, but as electric rates continue to climb that machine will at least keep yours as low as they can be,

Remember to have it serviced once a year. (Man i don't envy the guy who will do that job.)

[adrianf]

Why do they require different maintenance? Forgive my ignorance just don't know much about Panasonic, it is Panasonic right?

[hvaclover]

Oh yeah.