HP in NY?

[skunkiechris]

I'm getting ready to replace an entire system in my house in Buffalo, NY. I've done lots of reading, and found a couple of posts where formulas were posted to figure out the cost savings from a heat pump. Based on our utility costs, I'm calculating that a heat pump will be FAR more expensive to run than using a NG furance for all heating (95%.)

Prices are currently at:
Natural gas = $1.84/therm
Electricity = $0.1772/kWh

Both include delivery. Can anyone verify I'm not crazy? A heat truly wouldn't make any sense for me, correct?

Thanks!!

[tigerdunes]

chris

based on fuel comparison, the results are a wash.

using your rates, a COP of 2.75 for a HP and a 94% AFUE eff for a high eff gas furnace, the results are as follows.

Cost per 100,000 btu of useable heat

Electric baseboard: $4.67
Heat pump: $1.89
Natural gas: $1.91

NY has very expensive electric rates and when you factor in a longer life for a gas furnace over a heat pump, a HP just is not as attractive as a standalone or duel fuel application.

I would look at a Rheem modulating furnace or one of the new var speed three stg nat gas furnaces.

IMO
:)

http://www.warmair.com/html/fuel_cost_comparisons.htm

[beenthere]

With your electric rate, it would take a very high efficiency HP to make even a duel fuel practical. Not knowing how volatile your utility rates are, I wouldn't rule out duel fuel, but a HP with electric aux heat would cost more then a 95% NG furnace to use.

[beenthere]

chris



I would look at a Rheem modulating furnace or one of the new var speed three stg nat gas furnaces.


http://www.warmair.com/html/fuel_cost_comparisons.htm

So what. You don't like the York modulating furnace. It comes in both VS, and multispeed blower versions. Its 95% AFUE, and has 65 steps of modulation.
And doesn't require a special thermostat to be used.

[tigerdunes]

So what. You don't like the York modulating furnace. It comes in both VS, and multispeed blower versions. Its 95% AFUE, and has 65 steps of modulation.
And doesn't require a special thermostat to be used.

no slight intended to York furnaces...

[skunkiechris]

Thanks for the replies! Our electric rates are indeed ridiculous. If only we had a giant waterfall in our backyard where we could put in a big hydro plant... :rolleyes:

I had been looking towards Trane/Carrier Infinty. Is there a big comfort increase in the modulating furnaces? *Prepares to start digging for another decent heating contractor who deals with York or Rheem* I have three appointments so far, if I don't stop introducing more options the other half is going to kill me! :D

[beenthere]

Big jump in heating comfort, using mod furnace.

[luckyair]

I had been looking towards Trane/Carrier Infinty. Is there a big comfort increase in the modulating furnaces? *Prepares to start digging for another decent heating contractor who deals with York or Rheem* I have three appointments so far, if I don't stop introducing more options the other half is going to kill me! :D


The best solution is use a dual fuel system. You can use a gas furnace with a heat pump. Then you have two sources of heat. Using a carrier inifinity system will be easy to switch from gas to electric for you primary heat vs. back-up heat, jsut select it on the theromstat. (Get ready for a whole bunch of people here that know nothing about heat pumps to give reasons to not buy a heat pump.)

The cost is only a few hundred dollars more to get the heat pump outside instead of just an AC condenser, everything else would stay the same (gas furnace, coil, thermsotat). There is no reason NOT to use a heat pump with a gas furnace.

Personally I would not have a system brand that starts with a "Y".

[beenthere]

Personally I would not have a system brand that starts with a "Y".

Good thing Coleman starts with a "C" :)

With his utility rates, has to be a higher efficiency heat pump, to save enough money on the cost difference.

If you think I'm wrong. Run a cost comparison for him. So you can show the savings, and how lomg it will take to break even on the investment.

[Daltex]

"IF" the HP cost only "a few hundred dollars more", why would it not be better to go with a HP so you can switch over between the HP and gas if the spread between gas and elect. does widen? Seems that in 10 to 15 years it could change from the current equal price per therm.

[luckyair]

"IF" the HP cost only "a few hundred dollars more", why would it not be better to go with a HP so you can switch over between the HP and gas if the spread between gas and elect. does widen? Seems that in 10 to 15 years it could change from the current equal price per therm.

Don't you want a choice if the cost of one utility goes ways up?
Do you want heat if something happens to the gas supply?
You will save money on heating with a heat pump over gas in some cases, like when it is between 65 - 40 degrees. (Get ready for people that know nothing about heat pumps to tell you why this is wrong.)
Don't take my word for, get a good company to give you a quote on a Carrier Infinity System with a heat pump instead of a condenser. When you get that cost difference, divide it by 12 (the average life of the system) and you will see that for the same price of a good steak dinner once a year you can have a much better system.
Would you like to be more comfortable and not have the air so dry in the winter time?

[skunkiechris]

Some very good points. I guess I'll be asking for a quote on the heat pump as well, can't hurt! :)

[beenthere]

Get the quote on a matching heat pump. As far as only a few hundred dollares more.
Not something to assume over the internet.

[tinknocker service tech]

beenthere is right a few hundred isnt likely

you need to think how many days a year are above 35 degrees, A daul fuel will bring on a furnace at or arrounf that temp and shut down the eat pump.

being a buffalo i tend to think you temps are a lot colder most of the heating season and the highest eff furnace you can find would be to your best avantage. Ac seer at 13 since your cooling season is very short

[luckyair]

beenthere is right a few hundred isnt likely

you need to think how many days a year are above 35 degrees, A daul fuel will bring on a furnace at or arrounf that temp and shut down the eat pump.

being a buffalo i tend to think you temps are a lot colder most of the heating season and the highest eff furnace you can find would be to your best avantage. Ac seer at 13 since your cooling season is very short

So, how many days are there in Buffalo that are above 35 degrees?

Like I said earlier, you will get a bunch of people that know nothing about heat pumps to give you information.

As a Carrier / Bryant dealer, my cost on a 13 SEER heat pump is actually LESS than a 13 SEER Condenser.

[skunkiechris]

So, how many days are there in Buffalo that are above 35 degrees?

Most people think Buffalo is colder than it is. :-) For the last 12 years, on average there have been 115 days between October and April (my perceived heating season) with an average temperature above 35.


As a Carrier / Bryant dealer, my cost on a 13 SEER heat pump is actually LESS than a 13 SEER Condenser.

That's crazy! What exactly is the difference between a straight condenser and a heat pump?

[skunkiechris]

Ac seer at 13 since your cooling season is very short

I know 13 probably makes sense (I have 13 now, actually, and my electric bills aren't bad at all.) However, even if it doesn't make financial sense, I'd prefer to spend a little bit more and save energy. Also, I'd like to go to staged cooling, and I don't think anything in a 13 SEER is going to have two stages. (Right?)

[beenthere]

Your cost doesn't mean anything. Your not his contractor.

[tinknocker service tech]

since that is the case i do stand corrected. I did think it to be much colder and less warmer days.

looking into a heat pump may have a avantage as long as your electric cost isnt throug the roof

you also need to watch the btu output of the heat pump. Some put out more then others and your contractor should have this info on hand. I have seen a few cases where the costomer has thier switch over point set as low as 25 degrees. Depend on the house where it requires more btu then the heat pump can give.

[skunkiechris]

Not sure if it matters relative to HP vs no HP, but I'm also a low temp kind of person. In the winter I'm generally comfortable around 63-64, VERY rarely do I ever raise the temp above 65 in the house.

[beenthere]

Buffalo has just under 2300 hours under 35*F, and just over 4370 hours between 35 and 65*F.
The question is, how low of a temp can the heat pump handle the load,
A 2 stage heat pump will provide you good comfort in cooling mode. And heating mode, if set up right.
Pay back at your posted rates 20 to 27 years.
A 13 SEER heat pump will cost more then you are being led to believe.






You take notice, that the guy telling you to go heat pump has yet to offer to do a cost comparison for you.
If he's so sure its going to save you money, I would think he would do it for you, and post the results to show everyone.

[skunkiechris]

Thanks again, beenthere, your posts have been very informative and very helpful -- it's greatly appreciated!!

[luckyair]

Your cost doesn't mean anything. Your not his contractor.

why are you so opposed to comparing a heat pump?
Of course I am not his contractor. I have only been pointing out it is worth for HIM explore with HIS CONTRACTOR instead of listening to generic blanket statements made here by people that don't know.

[Mr Bill]

I have only been pointing out it is worth for HIM explore with HIS CONTRACTOR instead of listening to generic blanket statements made here by people that don't know.

Wow! Mighty Mouse here he comes to save the day! were sure glad you showed up to rescue all of us dummy's, News flash! remember most of the stuff you post or anyone here posts is opinion, I have read most of your posts they read more like opinion, were is your hard core data? :D

[luckyair]

Not sure if it matters relative to HP vs no HP, but I'm also a low temp kind of person. In the winter I'm generally comfortable around 63-64, VERY rarely do I ever raise the temp above 65 in the house.

A heat pump will be more comfortable for you then in milder temperatures. You won't have to worry about 120 - 130 temperature drying the air out as much.

[Mr Bill]

Our electric rates are indeed ridiculous. If only we had a giant waterfall in our backyard where we could put in a big hydro plant... :rolleyes:



(Get ready for a whole bunch of people here that know nothing about heat pumps to give reasons to not buy a heat pump.)



Yea what he said above is not a good reason not to buy a HP at all. :rolleyes:

[luckyair]

Wow! Mighty Mouse here he comes to save the day! were sure glad you showed up to rescue all of us dummy's, News flash! remember most of the stuff you post or anyone here posts is opinion, I have read most of your posts they read more like opinion, were is your hard core data? :D

that is kind of funny, the people here that post a thousand times a day seem to think that what they post is not an opinion, that it is fact. But for some reason, my posts are attacked when I offer a different opinion.

Are you nuts? "the stuff you post or anyone here posts is opinion,... were is your hard core data?" Make up your mind. Are you going to allow only hard core facts here or are you going to allow opinions? I am not the one obsessed with hard core data. I don't present my opinions as hard core data. I present my opinions in a manner for the original poster to take and use as he see fit. Of course the reality is that is just tuns into cannon fodder for other people to justify why they are better. If you think my OPINIONS are wrong then feel free to offer some hard core data to prove otherwise.

[Mr Bill]

Personally I would not have a system brand that starts with a "Y".

Is this also another one of your facts? or is this another opinion? :cool:
My guess is your here trying to Tranewash folks. :D

[Mr Bill]

Are you nuts? "the stuff you post or anyone here posts is opinion,... were is your hard core data?" Make up your mind. Are you going to allow only hard core facts here or are you going to allow opinions?


Read my post again:


News flash! remember most of the stuff you post or anyone here posts is opinion, :D

[Mr Bill]

If you think my OPINIONS are wrong then feel free to offer some hard core data to prove otherwise.


Do you honestly feel a HP is a good idea were electric rates are extremely high? that was what I gathered from your opinion earlier, if so as you said you "do" have a right to your opinion like anyone else here does.

[tinknocker service tech]

why are you so opposed to comparing a heat pump?
Of course I am not his contractor. I have only been pointing out it is worth for HIM explore with HIS CONTRACTOR instead of listening to generic blanket statements made here by people that don't know.



the OP will see comfort from a heat pump yes to a point but imo keeping the house at 63 would lead to cooler air blowing arround the house and not be comfortable at all. This imo would make the expense of a heat pump a total waist of money. 68 to 70 would be best suited for a heat pump IMHO

It would be best served to look into s modulating furnace that will provide the btu needed for the load. Any brand as them and with the warmer days or colder day the run time and avantage of modulating will provide more comfort in the long run.

Even though i am a fan of heat pumps and dual fuel there are cases where i would not recomend one and imo this is one because of the OP house temps

[luckyair]

Originally Posted by luckyair
Personally I would not have a system brand that starts with a "Y".


Is this also another one of your facts? or is this another opinion? :cool:
My guess is your here trying to Tranewash folks. :D

Finally, something we can agree on. Yes this is a FACT, a HARD CORE FACT, not an opinion.
NO, I m not trying to Tranewash anyone. I really like Trane products, but most of their systems for cooling have pitifully low EER. I lean more towards Lennox or Carrier.

[Mr Bill]

Originally Posted by luckyair
Personally I would not have a system brand that starts with a "Y".

I lean more towards Lennox or Carrier.

You would sell Lennox before York? you ain't right! http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l286/mrbillpro/1.gif

[beenthere]

Weather the OP gets a HP duel fuel system or not. Doesn't effect my bottom line.
With the rates he posted. You still haven't posted a monetary ROI, that would justify the expense of upgrading to a HP. He could experience a comfort improvement, or a loss of comfort with a HP.


Also. Show me a chart or factual repot that proves a 2 pipe 90% gas furnace with a discharge air temp of 120*F lowers the "house" RH any more then a heat pump at a 95*F discharge air temp.
In fact, it can be harder to bring up the homes RH with a heat pump using a regular flow throuh humidifier.


Personally, I hope the OP, gets a quote on a HP, and the company that gives it does an operating cost comparison for him. And then posts those results.

If you feel so strongly that its better for him to get a dual fuel. Then DO the operating comparison for him.

[luckyair]

Do you honestly feel a HP is a good idea were electric rates are extremely high? that was what I gathered from your opinion earlier, if so as you said you "do" have a right to your opinion like anyone else here does.

Ok, I know what will happen when I post this, but here goes. In all sincerity, if anyone here will take the time to run a cost comparison of Gas versus HP for milder temps above 35 degrees, in most cases the HP will be more cost effective, even with current electric rates. It works. ESPECIALLY in Texas where we have a low heating demand. I have done this. Before anyone tells me I am wrong then feel free to run your own comparison and email me.
My opinion about a HP is same when it comes to an AC system with a HP and GAS back up: there is truly no reason not to do it.

I am not suggesting that someone choose a HP INSTEAD of a Gas FURNACE. I am suggesting that most people should choose a HP instead of a condenser.

So the answer to you question ”Do you honestly feel a HP is a good idea were electric rates are extremely high?” Yes along with a gas furnace where available.
I had customers last year with $480 gas bills and HP customers with $200 bills. Go figure. The ideal system would be an AC with a HP and Gas back-up.
Will this work in Alaska? I doubt it. Will this work in Texas. Absolutely. Will it work North of the Red River? MAYBE.

[luckyair]

You would sell Lennox before York? you ain't right! http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l286/mrbillpro/1.gif

lol,

Honestly,
I will not offer York residential systems not matter what the cost.

[Mr Bill]

I had customers last year with $480 gas bills and HP customers with $200 bills. Go figure.

Well this is a fact I live in Houston and my "highest" gas bill for the winter was $45.00 be more than happy to show you, either someone were your are is bending you folks over with gas prices, or your customers like to bake potatoes while keeping warn during the winter. I would bet you "anyone" on this board that lives in Houston "in an average size home" not a 20,000 sq.ft. one would tell you there gas bill is probably along the same line as mine, $480.00? Holy Jesus now I could believe that in Houston if you used a HP only with our electric rates of about 15.6 per KW.

[luckyair]

Weather the OP gets a HP duel fuel system or not. Doesn't effect my bottom line.

Spoken like a true technician. It should affect your bottom line. For my company, I am the expert, I take the time to find out what is best for the customer. I separate myself from the competition by offering better design that they can't get elsewhere. I am worth more and customers are willing to pay for that.


You still haven't posted a monetary ROI, that would justify the expense of upgrading to a HP. He could experience a comfort improvement, or a loss of comfort with a HP.

Spoken like a true technician
ROI – don’t buy an air conditioner. – best savings.
“Justify the expense of upgrading”, How will he ever know, the advice he keeps getting here is “don’t bother looking at the options.”
Loss of comfort? – Only if someone that knows nothing about heat pumps tries to install it.


If you feel so strongly that its better for him to get a dual fuel. Then DO the operating comparison for him.

If you feel so strongly against something you don’t understand then DO the operating comparison for him.

[beenthere]

I'll let yoou do the comparisom.
I'm not the one telling him to spend extra money, and he will save more then if he uses gas only..

How the OP getting or not getting a HP would effect my bottom line is beyond me. I'm not going to drive 350 miles to install one for him.

HP's both dual fuel, and with electric aux are the norm here. So I know how well they work.

[luckyair]

I could believe that in Houston if you used a HP only with our electric rates of about 15.6 per KW.

How many times do I have to say this?????? **NOT*** a Heat Pump INSTEAD of a Gas Furnace. A Heat Pump INSTEAD of a condenser, geeeeezzzzzzzzzz!

You are paying 15.6 per kw???? If you are paying that then you must not be too worried about prices anyway. You don't have to stay with Reliant. You can switch today to another company and lock in 12 cents for 12 months.

[luckyair]

I'll let yoou do the comparisom.
I'm not the one telling him to spend extra money, and he will save more then if he uses gas only..

How the OP getting or not getting a HP would effect my bottom line is beyond me. I'm not going to drive 350 miles to install one for him.

HP's both dual fuel, and with electric aux are the norm here. So I know how well they work.

From what I am reading above, you are saying not to spend the extra money, yet you also are saying "I know how well they work". The Duel Fuel is the norm for your area, but it won't work 350 miles away??? Ok. I think I got it now.

[Mr Bill]

How many times do I have to say this?????? **NOT*** a Heat Pump INSTEAD of a Gas Furnace. A Heat Pump INSTEAD of a condenser, geeeeezzzzzzzzzz!

Well to be honest with you almost every tech I know laughs when they see a home with a HP and a gas furnace in Houston, it's one of those things that don't make "cents" especially in Houston because unless your nuts you will never use the HP. :eek:

[Daltex]

Well to be honest with you almost every tech I know laughs when they see a home with a HP and a gas furnace in Houston, it's one of those things that don't make "cents" especially in Houston because unless your nuts you will never use the HP. :eek:

Just curious, in Houston most don't heat w/ HP because of electrical prices or what? Thanks

[beenthere]

From what I am reading above, you are saying not to spend the extra money, yet you also are saying "I know how well they work". The Duel Fuel is the norm for your area, but it won't work 350 miles away??? Ok. I think I got it now.
Theres a problem. you only read what you want to read. Try looking at his utility rates again.

[Mr Bill]

Just curious, in Houston most don't heat w/ HP because of electrical prices? Thanks


Exactly!

[bzzline]

Just my 2 cents I have seen high seer heat pumps installed on gas furnaces because the cost of the high seer heatpump was less than a straight cool condensor(supply and demand I guess) Would not go for the highest seer anything without looking at the repair cost (have the contractor cover the names and address and have him show the actual repair cost of the high end systems). there are alot of ten yer warrentys but there only as good as who backs them up;);)

[skunkiechris]

Just a quick update. I had three installers come out this week, two Trane Comfort Specialist certified dealers, and a Carrier Factory Authorized Dealer.

Trane #1: Did a full load calc, chit-chatted for hours, was impressed that I had done my research. Actually tried to talk me down from XLi's to XR's for the AC/HP, citing a lack of economic return. Once I explained my reasoning (energy savings, comfort, etc.,) he agreed. Told me there would be a "couple thousand" dollar increase between an XR and an XLi.

Trane #2: Measured each room, but not the windows, etc. Talked UP the XL19i for efficiency and "unparalleled comfort." Said the price difference between a condenser and HP would be a "few hundred dollars."

Carrier #1: Measured the house in footsteps. (Seriously. He walked the length and width of the house.) Advised against the Infinity HP/AC as "not necessary." (I explained if I'm going Infinity I want the whole package!) Talked up the 95% furnace, despite the fact that I had already clearly indicated that's what I wanted, lol. Said there would be a significant price increase going with a heat pump, since they aren't common here. (?)

I'm waiting to get pricing back from all three. I asked for quotes on equipment around 14, 16, and highest SEER, and for both HP and condenser. No matter what I'm going with a 95%+ furnace, variable speed.

[genEus]

I am in almost exactly the same position, living in upstate NY region - house is 1700 sq. ft.

The electric costs are historically low in my town (on average 4cents/kwh)

I have had 4 estimates done and the guy I am leaning towards quoted $3200 for an AC+HP York unit or $2000 for a Coleman A/C only. He said he greatly recommends the HP and guarantees a 30% savings a year, but my own back-of-the-envelope calculations don't come up with that number, even with the low cost of electric. Can someone lend a hand? The natural gas prices are about $0.16 per therm here.

Any help?

[beenthere]

Is that per therm? Or per cubic foot?
If thats per therm, it will cost more to use a HP.
If thats per cubic foot, sthen traight electric is about 30% cheaper then gas with a 95% efficient furnace.

Guessing you included all charges with both rates.

[genEus]

Is that per therm? Or per cubic foot?
If thats per therm, it will cost more to use a HP.
If thats per cubic foot, sthen traight electric is about 30% cheaper then gas with a 95% efficient furnace.

Guessing you included all charges with both rates.

It's $.16 per therm.

And, I'm not sure if I included all charges - I've never really dissected my bill and I just looked up the rate online to do the HP calculations. I know on average the heating bill in the winter months is about $150-$200 with our Rheem 90 plus furnace but it drops significantly when the temperatures are in the 40s and above - I think for April the bill was $57 or so and that is together with the gas water heater. Somehow the numbers just don't justify it for me - but then again - I only approximated.

A con of the HP that I read somewhere - does this make sense - that the life of the AC/HP unit is shorter since it would have to be running all year round instead of just the few short months for the AC alone?

A pro for the HP unit is that the electric prices will grow at a much slower rate than the natural gas prices...

[beenthere]

A HP has a shorter lifespan then a straight A/C.

You have the cheapest natural gas rate I know of.
And a HP won't save you any money.
At your $0.16 a therm, 100,000 BTU's of heat from a 80% furnace is $0.20
A heat pump at $0.04 a KW and a HP with a COP of 4, would cost $0.29 for that same 100,000 BTU's of heat.


I just don't know how you used 35,625,000 BTU's (356.25 therms, = $57.00 divided by 16 cents per therm) in April if it was a warm month.

[skunkiechris]

So as it turns out, the price difference in going from a XL16i condenser to heat pump for me was indeed very small, so I'm going that route. Thanks for all the input!

[luckyair]

So as it turns out, the price difference in going from a XL16i condenser to heat pump for me was indeed very small, so I'm going that route. Thanks for all the input!

But you are still keeping the gas furnace too, right?

[skunkiechris]

But you are still keeping the gas furnace too, right?

Oh yes!!