Help, please! AC questions

[SittingDuck]

Today I got my 4-ton Lennox AC checked for spring/summer. Everything is fine, but the tech reminded me that my compressor is 22 years old.

(FWIW I did have to replace the fuses last year when the AC suddenly went kaput.)

Here come the sales pitches!

From Company A, whom I've been using to service our furnace & AC for years: Trane is the most trouble-free AC system. Man wants to sell me a 4-ton xl14i. Man says my current Lennox is a "two-stage," but I don't need that because a two stage is just "more complicated," not better. Man would use existing line-set, but would replace coil and condenser.

I called Company B for a second opinion. Company B, who used to service our system before we bought our house in 2005, starts telling me the terrible sad tale of coolants R22 and R410a.

Company B disapproves of Company A's failure to enlighten me to the coolant saga. Company B says I should not buy Trane xl14i from Company A because of its old coolant that will soon be banished to wander in the desert forever.

Instead I should buy a Trane xl15i from them, or better yet, a Lennox xc14. Both units have the lovely new R410a installed!

For what it's worth, Company B has a long and praiseworthy record on Angie's List. However, I've been using Company A for 7 years, and they seem to be straight shooters. I've read no complaints on the company. Still...one never knows, does one?

Tomorrow Company B is sending their pitch man.

Answers to unasked questions: As far as we know, we're staying in this house for the next ten years. Our AC is working fine, but I'm worried about getting nickel and dimed with repairs in the coming years. (Not to mention electric bills. Our "efficiency" rating is 8--just slightly too efficient to get a rebate from the electric company for a new system.)

Oh ye men & women of knowledge, please help this sitting duck dodge a bullet. Thank you thank you thank you!

[Superdark]

Why fix what isn't broken?

Cross that bridge when you come to it.

:p

[alex_in_fl]

FYIW:
I just replaced my 4 ton Trane (10 SEER) and 1.5 ton Trane (10 SEER) units. I now have a 4 ton two speed 16 SEER Amana (R410) and a 1.5 ton 15 SEER Goodman (R22). So don't buy based upon the type fluid.

Electricity costs will increase so consider getting the higher SEER unit (maybe your electrical provider has a rebate? Mine did for about $500). If the lines are solid there is no reason to replace them unless you change fluids.

Its a close call but Company B gets my vote. I dislike their badmouthing the competition but I really dislike Company A saying the two speed is just more complicated not better. The two speed will provide better comfort and lower costs - that is better in my book but maybe I am missing something.

Good luck to you.

Alex

[SittingDuck]

Why fix what isn't broken?

Cross that bridge when you come to it.

:p


That's just what I was thinking Superdark!

I'll wear your words as armour tomorrow.

[Daltex]

22 years old. Wow. Good life out of that system. Bottom line first- wait until it breaks. Now the problems- May break on a Friday evening and the service call would be high or a hotel stay for you and your family for the weekend. Company coming? That's when it happens and 22 yrs., your on very thin ice. Paying for a repair over the weekend will be money down the drain but getting a new install over the same weekend would be tough if even possible.

Regarding the "terrible sad tale of coolants R22 and R410a" the little Emerson banner at the top of the page shows 618 days of R22 left. It will still be around, just not made. This makes the cost of future repairs on R22 expensive. Warranty may cover initial problems but it could be a big concern so my 2 cents say go with the R410 unless you find the perfect system for you is R22.

The issue of variable speed has more to do with comfort. Most of the pros say the variable speed blower with a 2 stage compressor is substantialy more pleasant. Not a real money saving issue.

Lastly, use the time you have left to educate yourself on what to buy. This site is great and you can search for "manual J" and "manual D" to find out the second most important part of your new system- the size/design. The most important being the installation.

Good luck!

[BaldLoonie]

The XL14i is available in both refrigerants. Didn't Company B know that? Apparently not. The 15i is also available in both refrigerants.

But anyway, you don't get above 13 SEER with the 14i unless you have a matched Trane variable speed indoor unit and even then not always. With the 15i, you MAY hit 14 without variable speed but certainly not above it. You certainly won't get full efficiency and benefit of a 2 stage A/C without that manufacturer's matched variable speed system, Trane or Lennox.

We've seen companies in our area with great Angie's List ratings that we wouldn't recommend to an enemy. They are a guide but not perfect. Seems to me if you've dealt with someone for 7 years and trust them, that's valuable.

[HVAC2B]

The XL14i is available in both refrigerants. Didn't Company B know that? Apparently not. The 15i is also available in both refrigerants.

But anyway, you don't get above 13 SEER with the 14i unless you have a matched Trane variable speed indoor unit and even then not always. With the 15i, you MAY hit 14 without variable speed but certainly not above it. You certainly won't get full efficiency and benefit of a 2 stage A/C without that manufacturer's matched variable speed system, Trane or Lennox.

We've seen companies in our area with great Angie's List ratings that we wouldn't recommend to an enemy. They are a guide but not perfect. Seems to me if you've dealt with someone for 7 years and trust them, that's valuable.

way to sum it up,Loonie;)

[andserco]

try Company "C"..................:D

[bmathews]

FYIW:
I just replaced my 4 ton Trane (10 SEER) and 1.5 ton Trane (10 SEER) units. I now have a 4 ton two speed 16 SEER Amana (R410) and a 1.5 ton 15 SEER Goodman (R22). So don't buy based upon the type fluid.

Electricity costs will increase so consider getting the higher SEER unit (maybe your electrical provider has a rebate? Mine did for about $500). If the lines are solid there is no reason to replace them unless you change fluids.

Its a close call but Company B gets my vote. I dislike their badmouthing the competition but I really dislike Company A saying the two speed is just more complicated not better. The two speed will provide better comfort and lower costs - that is better in my book but maybe I am missing something.

Good luck to you.

Alex

I'm just curious about this post and being a professional member. I've never heard of a refrigerant referred to as a fluid, even if they've only been in class for a week. Do you do this for a living?

[SittingDuck]

We've seen companies in our area with great Angie's List ratings that we wouldn't recommend to an enemy. They are a guide but not perfect. Seems to me if you've dealt with someone for 7 years and trust them, that's valuable.


Excellent point.

And thanks for alerting me to the fact that the Trane xl14 & 15 are available in both refrigerants. I will ask both companies about that.

[alex_in_fl]

Hi Bmathews:

As Mr. Hanity would say if he were in my shoes:
Let not your heart be troubled by my use of engineering lingo for I am also an engineer.

The definition of "fluid" encompasses both liquids and gases thus a refrigerant is certainly a fluid.

[beenthere]

Sounds like somebody has a degree in fluid heat transfer. :)

[SittingDuck]

Thank you all! I believe I'm going to get a Lennox XC15 Signature. (FWIW my 2003 furnace is a Lennox Signature.)

Today I met with Company C (thank you andserco!) and I was impressed. They have a good reputation on Angie's as well as a spotless BBB record. However, according to the Lennox website, they don't have NATE certification.

One question: How important is NATE certification?

So far Company C is the lowest bid, even though they pride themselves on being "not the cheapest."

I'm canceling my appointment with Company A because they too have no NATE certification and I think their previous maintenance of my AC system may have been lacking. To boot, their quote was higher than Company C.

Company B is now relegated to the round file. Searches reveal aliases, lawsuits, etc.

In the morning I'm going to contact Company D, E and F (all NATE certified).

[SittingDuck]

Oh and I did ask Company C about the if-it-ain't-broke theory. He said that theory has merit. He (admirably!) added that my 22-year-old compressor was such an efficient model that my electricity savings will not be all that dramatic with a new unit. He said I should factor in how long I plan to stay here (answer: forever) and the three blown fuses in the last four years (one was ours in 2006; others with previous owners). FWIW new model will have no outdoor fuses, but rather a 60-amp disconnect.

[beenthere]

One question: How important is NATE certification?

Well, if you believe before NATE was formed, no tech or company could do a good install, then its real important.

Although Nate certification can show that a company or tech is interested in doing the best they can. Its not going to be true about every Nate tech.
Just because a company doesn't have Nate certified techs, doesn't mean their work is second rate.

[bmathews]

Hi Bmathews:

As Mr. Hanity would say if he were in my shoes:
Let not your heart be troubled by my use of engineering lingo for I am also an engineer.

The definition of "fluid" encompasses both liquids and gases thus a refrigerant is certainly a fluid.

I will assume that by you trying to dodge a direct question requiring a simple "yes" or "no" that you are not employed in the HVAC field. I never asked if you were an engineer.

[SittingDuck]

Update: Met with Company D. Fast-talking but knowledgeable guy. Wants to sell me a two-stage compressor. He says he can get around my Lennox G61's lack of a variable speed blower with some kind of "kit." I asked, "How can you do that? Another company told me that once you buy a certain type of furnace, that's what you have." He replied his employees are qualified to do this kind of work.

Anyone know about this kit? It's some kind of switch, and they install it in the furnace.

Company D also wants me to replace my humidifier with a digital one and he's going to throw in some extras like an expensive filter and a two-stage thermostat. Ten year P&L warranty. His bid is, naturally, the highest so far.

I also met with the official sales guy of Company A (which has been servicing my HVAC for the last 7 years). I told him that a few days ago his maintenance tech had said I should not get a two-stage compressor because they're "too complicated." The sales guy shook his head and said he'd "have to have a talk with that boy." But since there's no variable speed blower in my furnace, the point may be moot.

I brought up the kit. He'd heard of it, but he wasn't sure how it worked, and he wasn't sure it would be good for my equipment because once you start altering motors and fans to do things they weren't designed to do, you can run into trouble. (Makes sense.) He's going to check into this kit and get back to me with his recommendation. His company installs mostly Trane, but they are licensed for Lennox too.

Both companies have good reputations. I asked a LOT of questions about installation and they both had good answers.

Although I was initially impressed with Company C, I doubt I will hire them because they won't do a 10-year P&L warranty. (Company B is gone baby gone due to unsettling information revealed by online search.) I'm getting bids from four more companies during the next 7 days.

Back to the kit: Good idea? Bad idea? Thank you all for your input.

[beenthere]

The "kit" may be a Fan Handler. You'll find mixed reviews here. I'm not overly fond of the idea of using one. But they do work. They're an economical way to have some of the benifit of a VS blower, without getting a new furnace.

If they're just talking about installing a relay to run the blower on its lower speesd. It won't slow down enough to get the full comfort of a 2 stge condenser.

[t527ed]

no "kit" of any kind is required to put 2 stage cooling on any G61 furnace.:rolleyes:


all they have to do is cut a jumper on the furnace board and it will control blower for 2 stage cooling.

[beenthere]

I thought he had a G60.

[21degrees]

Your are firing people before you hire them. I just hope you realize everybody is going to have a different opinion and it cost money to come out a bid on these jobs. Their is more than 1 right way of doing this job and it is going to depend on who you talk to. Good luck with the next 10 Quotes. Hopefully it is one of these members company going out and waisting their time.:mad:
Update: Met with Company D. Fast-talking but knowledgeable guy. Wants to sell me a two-stage compressor. He says he can get around my Lennox G61's lack of a variable speed blower with some kind of "kit." I asked, "How can you do that? Another company told me that once you buy a certain type of furnace, that's what you have." He replied his employees are qualified to do this kind of work.

Anyone know about this kit? It's some kind of switch, and they install it in the furnace.

Company D also wants me to replace my humidifier with a digital one and he's going to throw in some extras like an expensive filter and a two-stage thermostat. Ten year P&L warranty. His bid is, naturally, the highest so far.

I also met with the official sales guy of Company A (which has been servicing my HVAC for the last 7 years). I told him that a few days ago his maintenance tech had said I should not get a two-stage compressor because they're "too complicated." The sales guy shook his head and said he'd "have to have a talk with that boy." But since there's no variable speed blower in my furnace, the point may be moot.

I brought up the kit. He'd heard of it, but he wasn't sure how it worked, and he wasn't sure it would be good for my equipment because once you start altering motors and fans to do things they weren't designed to do, you can run into trouble. (Makes sense.) He's going to check into this kit and get back to me with his recommendation. His company installs mostly Trane, but they are licensed for Lennox too.

Both companies have good reputations. I asked a LOT of questions about installation and they both had good answers.

Although I was initially impressed with Company C, I doubt I will hire them because they won't do a 10-year P&L warranty. (Company B is gone baby gone due to unsettling information revealed by online search.) I'm getting bids from four more companies during the next 7 days.

Back to the kit: Good idea? Bad idea? Thank you all for your input.

[SittingDuck]

Your are firing people before you hire them. I just hope you realize everybody is going to have a different opinion and it cost money to come out a bid on these jobs. Their is more than 1 right way of doing this job and it is going to depend on who you talk to. Good luck with the next 10 Quotes. Hopefully it is one of these members company going out and waisting their time.:mad:

I'm glad you're not bidding on my job too!

I will be stuck with whatever I get for a long time. This job is going to cost me over five grand because I'm getting a water heater at the same time.

No one is putting a gun to their heads. They are all aware I'm getting other quotes, and one company has already been paid thousands of dollars by me because I've been a service-agreement customer for 7 years. They are all free to say that they're not interested. No one has said that.

I won't be getting any more quotes after the next four. Those four companies had good reputations and their offices are nearby, so I thought I would ask them if they want to throw their hats in the ring. They all said yes. To be honest, everyone I've dealt with has been refreshingly grown up, and they seem to love their work. I admire that.

[SittingDuck]

The "kit" may be a Fan Handler. You'll find mixed reviews here. I'm not overly fond of the idea of using one. But they do work. They're an economical way to have some of the benifit of a VS blower, without getting a new furnace.

If they're just talking about installing a relay to run the blower on its lower speesd. It won't slow down enough to get the full comfort of a 2 stge condenser.

Thanks, been there. I just got an email from kit guy. He says it's a relay kit.

t527, I doublechecked. I do indeed have a G61. I'll bring up the furnace board and see what kind of response I get.

21: I never "waisted" Company B's time. Once I found out they had a lot of lawsuits filed against them, I cancelled the appointment.

And 21: Whoever I end up hiring will no doubt get my service business for the next ten years, so this is more than just the initial job. I think it's smart to choose carefully.

[Daltex]

Your are firing people before you hire them. I just hope you realize everybody is going to have a different opinion and it cost money to come out a bid on these jobs. Their is more than 1 right way of doing this job and it is going to depend on who you talk to. Good luck with the next 10 Quotes. Hopefully it is one of these members company going out and waisting their time.:mad:

I'm also in the process of getting quotes for my house. I have a total of 7 HVAC units in both of my houses. I was going to get multiple quotes since all the units are over 15 yrs old. What is the total amount of quotes I'm allowed? How do I break the news to the other companies that I am at my quote limit so they have no chance at winning the contract?:rolleyes:

I agree each contractor has different opinions but that's the educational process the buyer goes through. Some people don't want to spend the time to research something like this - too each his own. Remember, you stop learning only when your dead.

[SittingDuck]

Update: I'm going to cancel my next three HVAC appointments because I have found my man. Sometimes you don't know what you're looking for till you find it.

Company was established in 1950 by a local mechanical engineer. They have their own metal shop. According to the salesman, they're the only ones in town that lay gravel down and top it with one solid concrete slab for the compressor.

Man spent half an hour downstairs measuring my equipment and ductwork. No one else did that.

No kits. Man suggested a way to make the most of our current G61 so that the new single stage-compressor will work harder as a dehumidifier.

I have so much confidence in this company that we're going to have them replace our separate 22-year-old (zoned for finished basement) furnace/AC while they're at it. As well as put in a new water heater.

Normally I would not get so many bids for a job, but sometimes companies were slow to respond, and I'd call someone else. Then when they finally did call, I didn't want to say: Too late. I'm glad, because today's appointment was little more than an afterthought, but I think I've hired the best in town.

One company told me that installing AC was "the easiest thing in the world." He added, "It's not rocket science, you know." Ahem! It may not be rocket science, but it is science, and you want it to work in your favor.

Thanks to you wonderful folks, I had some idea what questions to ask. And I knew to persist until it found the right company. Bless you all for your help. Sorry if I ruffled some feathers. I'm an engineer's daughter, and my social skills are not the best.

[21degrees]

Put yourself in the guys shoes, that is coming out to give you a quote, he does not make 1 red cent to come out and spend at least 1 hour with you plus his gas and wear and tear on his vehicle. Next time you go to work tell your your boss that their is someone better than you in the world so I am only going to charge you 6 Hours for eight hours work. Just be reasonable with contractors. Ten quotes is only going to confuse someone because everyone has a opinion and yes there is more than 1 right way of doing a job.
I'm also in the process of getting quotes for my house. I have a total of 7 HVAC units in both of my houses. I was going to get multiple quotes since all the units are over 15 yrs old. What is the total amount of quotes I'm allowed? How do I break the news to the other companies that I am at my quote limit so they have no chance at winning the contract?:rolleyes:

I agree each contractor has different opinions but that's the educational process the buyer goes through. Some people don't want to spend the time to research something like this - too each his own. Remember, you stop learning only when your dead.

[yazza]

Interesting thread. I'm looking for a furnace/AC combo and have called 9 contractors so far over the past 2 weeks. 4 did not return my call at all- they are off my list. Of the 5 I saw not one offered a Manual J. I asked why and they said it takes to long and since it is a builders furnace the house has been sized already. I've been getting quotes for 60,000 and 75,000 BTU furnaces depending upon the model and 1.5 to 2.5 ton AC. Of the 5 I saw- 1 gave me the wrong information about a thermostat (Rheem mod thermostat), one sent their operations guy over who measured the furnace, the room, and checked out the electrical for about and hour but they still have not got back to me and it is now over a week. Another contractor was trying to upsell me on a heat pump I do not need ( I am in Toronto with a gas furnace at reasonable rates- electricity is still not to bad here), another gave a great presentation on good equipment but the price is higher than I would prefer to spend and the last guy was a service manager and part owner of a firm that came in took a quick look and preceded to provide me with a quote with no explanation on the equipment- just the price although when talking to him he seemed to know the technical side of the install. His company is not part of the OPA rebate plan up here so I wouldn't be able to take advantage of all the rebate. All companies have been in business between 35 years or more and 10 years.
5 contractors and only one contractor provided an honest and clear explanation about the cost and process of the install (although still no manual j)
I agree that it takes a lot of time on behalf of the contractors, but it also takes alot of time on behalf of the consumer to make an informed purchase.

[21degrees]

Go ahead phone 9 more and you still won't probably won't be happy. I worked in toronto for a few experienced good contractors and I really find it hard that 4 did not return your call, you must have said something or be asking for something out of the ordinary. Where are you looking for contractors in the back of the paper. Phone Buttons heating they are very respectful and will do it right. As far as price they are probably not going to be the cheapest. It cost money to do good work.


5 contractors and only one contractor provided an honest and clear explanation about the cost and process of the install (although still no manual j)
I agree that it takes a lot of time on behalf of the contractors, but it also takes alot of time on behalf of the consumer to make an informed purchase.[/QUOTE]

[BigJon3475]

Put yourself in the guys shoes, that is coming out to give you a quote, he does not make 1 red cent to come out and spend at least 1 hour with you plus his gas and wear and tear on his vehicle. Next time you go to work tell your your boss that their is someone better than you in the world so I am only going to charge you 6 Hours for eight hours work. Just be reasonable with contractors. Ten quotes is only going to confuse someone because everyone has a opinion and yes there is more than 1 right way of doing a job.

LOL...that's funny



Are you trying to run people off?



I wouldn't normally do this but:
Disregard this posters post. Get as many quotes as you need to feel comfortable when your spend your multiple thousands of dollars....after all if your buying what you should with your system your signing a very long relationship....i.e....warranties. Hate to see someone get suckered by this post because he doesn't want any competition.




Sorry it cost money to bid......make them pay for it first. :rolleyes: see where that get's ya.

[21degrees]

People don't being lied to and that is what you are doing Johnny. Hopefully you are 1 of the companies that he is getting a quote from.:mad:
LOL...that's funny



Are you trying to run people off?



I wouldn't normally do this but:
Disregard this posters post. Get as many quotes as you need to feel comfortable when your spend your multiple thousands of dollars....after all if your buying what you should with your system your signing a very long relationship....i.e....warranties. Hate to see someone get suckered by this post because he doesn't want any competition.




Sorry it cost money to bid......make them pay for it first. :rolleyes: see where that get's ya.

[BigJon3475]

People don't being lied to and that is what you are doing Johnny. Hopefully you are 1 of the companies that he is getting a quote from.:mad:

I'd feel the same way as you if I wasn't very confident in my ability to bid a job and myself to a future customer. If a potential company even remotely talks bad about another company out they go. You'll probably have a hard time even getting load calcs from companies if it's anything like around here.....and then on top of that you want folks to limit their options for HVAC co's and bids? Are you reading what you type? I understand in principle what your saying.....think of it from the stand point of the person spending lot's of money hearing or seeing the things you type.


Also at what point did I lie? Let's just move on you made your point I think I made mine....we are both entitled to that as long as we follow rules.

[21degrees]

Im just get mad because after hearing from 7 to 10 so called professionals, you will start to confuse yourself. If your are there for presentation. Alot of people won`t even be there for my proposal and have there kids, nanny or friend there. I come out and spend 20 to 40 minutes sizing job up and seeing if anything is not up to code or can be improved, Then I spend another 30 minutes to 1 hour when I sit down and asking questions on existing system and home. (cold spots, noise, dust ETC) Then I do give them good, better, best options with time line valid for 30 days. I am thorough and my customers tell my office lots that my prensation was education and professional, I get lots of calls will you match competitor A or B and we don't and I do get calls 1 year latter will you still honor your price. I just want people to be serious about making a purchase and be considerate about our time. Just tell me you are getting 10 quotes and I will give you my competitors number gracefully. I don't expect everyone to agree with me. I am just stating my opinion.Trust is a big factor in this business and any other business. Sorry if I offended anyone not my intention.

[yazza]

Go ahead phone 9 more and you still won't probably won't be happy. I worked in toronto for a few experienced good contractors and I really find it hard that 4 did not return your call, you must have said something or be asking for something out of the ordinary. Where are you looking for contractors in the back of the paper. Phone Buttons heating they are very respectful and will do it right. As far as price they are probably not going to be the cheapest. It cost money to do good work.


5 contractors and only one contractor provided an honest and clear explanation about the cost and process of the install (although still no manual j)
I agree that it takes a lot of time on behalf of the contractors, but it also takes alot of time on behalf of the consumer to make an informed purchase.[/QUOTE]



To answer your comments, all I said on the phone as I left my info with the receptionist is that I was interested in a Furnace/AC - please call to provide an estimate-nothing more! As far as the best contractor so far - guess what - Button's! I would use them, however they are more expensive and possibly beyond my budget. They are offering Trane. I would be comfortable using them. However, I would prefer the Rheem mod as my house although only 1518 sq. ft. has cold and hot areas and I think the mod would help. The problem with the mod in Toronto is finding an contractor. I agree that one must respect the time and energy of the sales professional, but on the other hand I am making a purchase that I will have to live with for approx 20 years and at a fairly high cost, so I want to make the most informed (not necessarily the cheapest) decision I can with the limited knowledge I have.

[21degrees]

I will agree with you 100% but just remember, their is more than 1 right way of picking a contractor. Good luck and Tell my Uncle to give you a break. LOL



To answer your comments, all I said on the phone as I left my info with the receptionist is that I was interested in a Furnace/AC - please call to provide an estimate-nothing more! As far as the best contractor so far - guess what - Button's! I would use them, however they are more expensive and possibly beyond my budget. They are offering Trane. I would be comfortable using them. However, I would prefer the Rheem mod as my house although only 1518 sq. ft. has cold and hot areas and I think the mod would help. The problem with the mod in Toronto is finding an contractor. I agree that one must respect the time and energy of the sales professional, but on the other hand I am making a purchase that I will have to live with for approx 20 years and at a fairly high cost, so I want to make the most informed (not necessarily the cheapest) decision I can with the limited knowledge I have.[/QUOTE]