New House - 14Seer vs 2stage 16Seer

[deliverer33]

We are building a new home with approx. 3000 sq. ft. The house comes with two 14seer units standard. I requested a quote to upgrade to a 2-stage 16 seer and was given a cost of $x. In your opinion would this be worth while and a cost effective upgrade? Meaning would I regain the cost of within 5-7 years?

Thanks,

Will

[beenthere]

Posting of prices is not allowed on this forum. Please edit it out. Thank You.
Please read the rules.

Although going from a 14 to a 16 SEER unit is a 20% increase in efficiency, its only about a 12 to 13% savings on the utility bill.

2 Stage units are more for comfort then money savings.

[deliverer33]

Thanks for the reply. I am stating the cost difference between a 14 seer and 16 seer, not the actual cost of the units. I'm trying to determine if it's a worthwhile upgrade. If this is still outside the forum rules, please advise and I will remove it.

[beenthere]

The cost difference from one area is not the same to the next. So it should not be posted.
Better to edit it out.

I will tell you this. In new construction. The base system is pretty much rock bottom price little profit for the HVAC contractor, so an upgrade usually carries a hefty price with it.

[Swampfox]

When you get in to the high seer 2 speed equipment, its not just a cost vs. payback issue, you are also paying for the extra comfort they provide, if that is your main concern 14 Seer is probably the way to go for you.

[luckyair]

We are building a new home with approx. 3000 sq. ft. The house comes with two 14seer units standard. I requested a quote to upgrade to a 2-stage 16 seer and was given a cost of $5000. In your opinion would this be worth while and a cost effective upgrade? Meaning would I regain the cost of within 5-7 years?

Thanks,

Will

From what described it sounds like a worthwhile investment. Keep in mind that 2-stage equipment SEER rating it based on high speed. Most of the time the 2-stage equipment will run in low speed AND the SEER Rating will be significantly higher. Most manufacturers do not publish SEER rating on low-speed 2-stage equipment. Given the growning cost of electricity I would expect a payback within 7 years, but that is just an assumption based on usage, SEER and electricity cost. My recommendation is to use the two-speed.

[beenthere]

I would say go with the 2 stage for comfort.
Even if they would be 18 SEER in first stage, its very doubtfull your going to save over 700 bucks a year in electric over a 14 SEER, unless your electric rate is real high.

[luckyair]

Assuming the AC cost of your electric bill is $125 then with escalating cost of electricity at 7% a year over 7 years that means that electricity will cost 60% more in 7 years.

Since most equipment averages 12-15 years life span, at 7 years the increase in electricity will be $75. If you use that amount in average over the life of the equipment then you can expect to save $75 month x 12 months x 14 years = $12,600

If you add $5000 to your home loan at 7% int for 20 years the extra pay will be $39.

Bottom line is, it is at least a break even with free extra comfort.

[timby]

We are building a new home with approx. 3000 sq. ft. The house comes with two 14seer units standard. I requested a quote to upgrade to a 2-stage 16 seer and was given a cost of $x. In your opinion would this be worth while and a cost effective upgrade? Meaning would I regain the cost of within 5-7 years?

Thanks,

Will

I feel your pain ....:confused:

I recently had to make the a similar decision. Whether to get the 14 SEER or the 16 SEER. Would the 16 SEER be worth the difference in price and what would be the payback? :confused: Ask your builder to provide you with the ARI# of each unit and then go to ari.org to see the real SEER and EER ratings. This will make it easier to compare the units.

Well the guy who installed my new HVAC made the decision much easier. The cost to replace my old unit with a 16 SEER was only a few hundred more than the 14 SEER unit. Also, I was getting a much better furnace. So I went with the 16SEER. :D

It's really hard to determine what the payback will be. There are so many variables. Will there be a cost increase for electricity? Will I be able to set the therm up a few degrees to save on the electric bill?

If I'm not mistaken there are some tables out there on the web that provide some guidance in this area. Given a 16 SEER unit vs a 8 SEER, based on the charge per kilo-watt how much will I save. This should help you with your buying decision. I'm not sure that moving up from a 14 SEER to a 16SEER would be prudent. This would only make since if the cost difference is small as we can't know what the electric folks are going to do.

Just my 2 cents ....

[beenthere]

Assuming the AC cost of your electric bill is $125 then with escalating cost of electricity at 7% a year over 7 years that means that electricity will cost 60% more in 7 years.

Since most equipment averages 12-15 years life span, at 7 years the increase in electricity will be $75. If you use that amount in average over the life of the equipment then you can expect to save $75 month x 12 months x 14 years = $12,600

If you add $5000 to your home loan at 7% int for 20 years the extra pay will be $39.

Bottom line is, it is at least a break even with free extra comfort.

In reality, the 16 SEER will save him about 35 bucks a month over the 14 SEER.
He probably doesn't use A/C 12 months a year. The 16 SEER will provide him better comfort then the 14 SEER. 2 stage systems are for comfort.

[Creekpathguy]

I agree with beenthere: it depends on where you live and how you use your A/C; if you live in Arizona it would probably be worth it to go as high a SEER rating you can and the 2 stage would be practical, if you live in a climate where you only use A/C for 2 or 3 months of the year and/or you are the type of consumer who only turns on the A/C unit once in a while, it just may not be worth the extra cost to 'upgrade' to the higher SEER. The 2 stage option again comes down to your location and personal use: do the actual savings actually offset the increased price?

[jrongo]

Consider getting a heat pump not just A/C and going duel fuel. You might find yourself saving electric in summer and saving fossil fuel in the winter as well.

[luckyair]

In reality, the 16 SEER will save him about 35 bucks a month over the 14 SEER.
He probably doesn't use A/C 12 months a year. The 16 SEER will provide him better comfort then the 14 SEER. 2 stage systems are for comfort.

Did you not read my reply? I am talking about the 2-speeds running on LOW speed at a SEER rating HIGHER than 16 SEER. 16 SEER is only 14.3% more efficient than 14 SEER. That means he would have to spend $250 a month on cooling to save $35 at 14.3% more efficiency. What are you basing your $35 savings on?

His original concern about cost payback, not comfort.

[beenthere]

I read your post.
Its not like a 16 SEER 2 stage is 18+ SEER in first stage. Some only get a .5 SEER increase, and others on;y get a .25 increase.

The 35 dollars is based on your 125 dollar cooling electric bill.

If the OP gives us his area and electric rate, and I have the bin loads for it, I'll run a cost comparison for him

[deliverer33]

I live in North Texas. Hot and humid summers. I will try to get the model numbers of both units. I currently pay about .1259 per Kwh with all taxes and franchise fees figured.

[beenthere]

Ahh, north Texas covers a large area. Bin data is for a smaller area then the entire north Texas area. :)

If you can give the name of a city or 2 that your close to.
Plus what the load calc said your cooling load is.
If they didn't give you that. I will run it at the full rating of the units, that will still tell you want kind of savings you could have.

Sorry I didn't spec all of that in the other post.

[deliverer33]

I live in Mckinney, area code 75070. Allen and Plano are the other cities nearby. I don't have any technical specs on the AC, but will request them. It will probably take a couple of days. However, if I can get a ballpark that would be great.


I read your post.
Its not like a 16 SEER 2 stage is 18+ SEER in first stage. Some only get a .5 SEER increase, and others on;y get a .25 increase.

The 35 dollars is based on your 125 dollar cooling electric bill.

If the OP gives us his area and electric rate, and I have the bin loads for it, I'll run a cost comparison for him

[luckyair]

deliverer: How many years are you financing you house? What is the longest number of years you plan to stay there? What is the interest rate?

[deliverer33]

We plan on staying there "forever", but everyone knows how that goes. We will be financing on a 30 year mortgage. I would guess around 5.75-6.25% on the rate.

[luckyair]

We plan on staying there "forever", but everyone knows how that goes. We will be financing on a 30 year mortgage. I would guess around 5.75-6.25% on the rate.

At 6.25%, 30 years, $5000, your payment will go up $30.79

A 16 SEER is 14% more efficient than a 14 SEER

The payback is greater than 10 years on this option.

Not a good investment for dollar savings only. You should still consider doing it just for the creature comfort.

[deliverer33]

Today is an extremely humid day. I believe we are in the high 90% on humidity. With a 2 stage system would this be a good day to keep the air more comfortable? Right now on my old system I have the air on simply to get rid of the humidty. Temperate wise it's only 74 in the house.

[luckyair]

Today is an extremely humid day. I believe we are in the high 90% on humidity. With a 2 stage system would this be a good day to keep the air more comfortable? Right now on my old system I have the air on simply to get rid of the humidty. Temperate wise it's only 74 in the house.

Ok, now I am going to really complicate things for you. ME PERSONALLY, since I live in central Texas, I would only buy a Carrier Infinity System or a Bryant Evolution System (identical systems). These are the ONLY residential systems on the market out-of-the-box that give you DIRECT dehumidification.
I sold about 80 of these systems last year. These systems are the ONLY residential systems that let you actually PROGRAM the relative humidity AND it will PRECISELY control the fan speed, compressor, compressor fan BASED ON INDOOR AND OUTDOOR Humidfity and Temperature. But that is another story...

You can have a cheap cool system
You can have a cool comfortable system
You cannot have a cool comfortable cheap system

[beenthere]

Yes, a 2 stage would work well for what you want on the conditions you are having.

luckyair, might only recomend Carrier/Bryant, but there are many other brands that will more then work fine for you. Yes, the others will need a thermostat like the Honetwell IAQ to slow the blower down. Big deal.

[Daltex]

Based on your decision to reduce cost down the road, another thing to consider is the use of the $$$ to increase the insulation. Spray foaming the attic may cost even less than the AC upgrade. If comfort is a concern now that you know what a variable speed blower can do then do both.

Take a look at this thread for example: http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=168936

[beenthere]

You didn't say what size units. So I guessed at 3 ton each.
$217.82 savings going 16 SEER over 14. That was calculated using 16 SEER in first stage also.
using 17 SEER for OD temps under 90*F, and 16 SEER for OD temps 95*F and above, it adds another $63.56 to the savings.
So a total of $281.38 a year in savings. At your posted rates. Of ourse as your electric rate increases, the amount of savings will also.

[deliverer33]

The attic will have Radiant barrier roof decking. I'm just now looking and it appears the included AC is a 14 Seer Amana. They do seal the system with mastic. I'm also trying to get upgraded to R40 insulation from R30


Based on your decision to reduce cost down the road, another thing to consider is the use of the $$$ to increase the insulation. Spray foaming the attic may cost even less than the AC upgrade. If comfort is a concern now that you know what a variable speed blower can do then do both.

Take a look at this thread for example: http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=168936

[Daltex]

The attic will have Radiant barrier roof decking. I'm just now looking and it appears the included AC is a 14 Seer Amana. They do seal the system with mastic. I'm also trying to get upgraded to R40 insulation from R30

Radiant barrier isn't the same as closed cell foam insulation. The foam is a great insulator but also stops the leakage of heat into the house in the summer and out in the winter via sealing air movement. Fibergass can't do this. Do some looking, there have been other threads on this board about it.
I don't sell it and don't even have it yet but I thought you might be interested since it's a new build.

Good Luck!