Are PECO special rates going away?

[dafreerider]

I live in Southeastern PA. PECO is my utility company. Heat pump owners get special (lower) electric rates from October to May. These rates help to make owning a heat pump worthwhile. I've heard through the grapewine that those special rates for heat pump owners may go away soon (next couple of years). Since I am in the process of selecting a new system, that information can play a major role in selecting the officiency of the heat pump (more efficient unit will payback much sooner).

Does anyone have any information regarding the expiration of those special PECO rates? Does anyone sit on PECO Board and willing to give us heads up? If you do not know, where should I go to get this kind of prospective information?

Thank you!

[beenthere]

PECO wants to try some new things for billing.
You might want to read up on at their website.
You can also send them an email through theircontact link, and ask them.

http://www.exeloncorp.com/ourcompanies/peco/pecores/energy_rates/our_rates_and_prices.htm

[Jopopsy]

Just an aside here, but I just got off the phone w/ PPL this AM b/c I am considering a heat pump install as well. While my rates are lower then PECO, PPL does not have a special rate schedule for folks heating w/ electric.

[beenthere]

No they don't.
Did they tell you about the rate hike thats coming. I think in 2010.

[Jopopsy]

No they don't.
Did they tell you about the rate hike thats coming. I think in 2010.

Thanks for the heads up.

Found it:
http://www.pplelectric.com/NR/rdonlyres/85B845E7-4B64-4128-BC84-535997F3B915/7789/Connect_September_2006.pdf

Great. Now I have to add 30% to the calculations done for my Heat Pump estimate. Still cheaper then Propane though (I think).

[beenthere]

It will be.
Gas, and oil are going to continue to go up also.

[heatpumpguru]

Having a good friend on the PECO board,he said that the RH rate is not going away.They are looking for a 20% increase in 2010. You can go up from 6 cents with RH or 15 cents a KW .I have not sold many a/c unit in my area which is PECO country and made up an EASY cheat sheet to get the rate with going through ALL the problems. Everyone said it was easy to do,without the backdoor way GOOD LUCK!!!Can we get a shot at your job??

[flange]

One of the reasons that housing has been grown so quickly in SE pa is the adoption of the heatpump. This allowed the builders to build without waiting for infrastructure with natuaral gas, or with the perceived odor of oil in new homes. Although these systems were technically inferior for the climate, people jumped at the chance to buy new homes, specifically in Bucks and Mont counties. The rate adjustment helped to justifiy the heatpump for this climate, and doubtfully will go away. There are just too many customers with this rate structure. This allows for smoother operations of the generating stations, as opposed to going into seasonal lag caused by not running condensers for air conditioning. If all those heatpumps stopped running, they might have to take power plants offline, and this is more costly than your lowered rate. But since you are here anyway, there are some fine contractors on this site, how about giving one or two of them a shot at your work?

[Jopopsy]

One of the reasons that housing has been grown so quickly in SE pa is the adoption of the heatpump. This allowed the builders to build without waiting for infrastructure with natuaral gas, or with the perceived odor of oil in new homes. Although these systems were technically inferior for the climate, people jumped at the chance to buy new homes, specifically in Bucks and Mont counties. The rate adjustment helped to justifiy the heatpump for this climate, and doubtfully will go away. There are just too many customers with this rate structure. This allows for smoother operations of the generating stations, as opposed to going into seasonal lag caused by not running condensers for air conditioning. If all those heatpumps stopped running, they might have to take power plants offline, and this is more costly than your lowered rate. But since you are here anyway, there are some fine contractors on this site, how about giving one or two of them a shot at your work?

If I were building the house myself I most certainly would give any number of you guys a shot at this. However the builder has his HVAC guy so I have to play by his rules.

On the other hand, when I need a Aprilaire humidifier installed or something like that done - you bet I'm coming here first.

[heatpumpguru]

If you want a LOCAL person I live near LONGWOOD Gardens.Since we cannot do the work at least I can make sure you get a QUALITY job. I have BAILED out a few people on site already.You can get me via my site.

[rk911]

The rates will go up from what I hear
..

[RandomNick]

Does anyone have any information regarding the expiration of those special PECO rates? Does anyone sit on PECO Board and willing to give us heads up? If you do not know, where should I go to get this kind of prospective information?

I did come across this:
http://www.philly.com/inquirer/business/homepage/20101114_Peco_s_electric-heating_discount_ending.html

However, I haven't spent time digging via google, PECO's site, etc. Here is another link while I have it handy:

http://www.peco.com/pecores/energy_rates/energy_choice/pricetocompare.htm

[jerrod6]

I've been thinking about switching to dual fuel HP/gas backup and have looked at the price to compare chart. I went to the PECO web site and see that they have a new rate filling effective November 30, 2010 before we have even gotten to 2010 or switched suppliers. What is this? Extra money for Christmas?

The rate for regular service increased to .0919 up from the current .0698 in the winter
Heating service went to .0937 for the first 600 kwh then .0495 for amounts over 600.

Since the newspaper ariticle mentioned that the Heating service rate will no longer exist after 2010-2011 heating season It might be wise to just base your calcuations on the regualr rate. Is 9 cents high for electric heat pump rates?

Also consider that there is the variable distribution charge in addition to the energy/transmission charge that everyone will pay to PECO energy regardless of what company you buy your electricity from. The variable distribution charge is applied per Kwh so the more you use the more you pay. The charge looks about the same as is now: .0520 in the winter. In the summer it is .0520 up to 500kwh then .0596 for every kwh you use over 500.

[Jack2007]

Heating customers won't lose their special rate this winter. The discount will be cut by half during the 2011-12 heating season, however, and by the end of 2012, it will disappear altogether.
Read more: http://www.philly.com/inquirer/business/homepage/20101114_Peco_s_electric-heating_discount_ending.html?page=1&c=y
Well, Obama did say under his administration electric rates will "skyrocket". :gah:

This reminds me of the 70's when oil prices went through the roof and PECO asked everyone to "conserve" energy. Well, everyone conserved so much energy that PECO said they HAD TO RAISE RATES to make their ends meet. :rolleyes:

Since PECO has everybody by the short hairs, I guess we can call this "legal robbery". :whistle:
.

[pstu]

Well, Obama did say under his administration electric rates will "skyrocket". :gah:

This reminds me of the 70's when oil prices went through the roof and PECO asked everyone to "conserve" energy. Well, everyone conserved so much energy that PECO said they HAD TO RAISE RATES to make their ends meet. :rolleyes:

Since PECO has everybody by the short hairs, I guess we can call this "legal robbery". :whistle:
.
People always say that about a regulated monopoly. Didn't all kinds of energy prices rise through the roof in the 1970's, oil gas AND electricity? Construction costs rose immensely too, making plant construction a nightmare. I think that nuclear plane PECO was constructing was more of a direct cause of rake hikes. The only utilities that escaped that kind of grief were ones which relied almost completely on coal... the kind of coal plants built w/o emission controls which were cheap to build, cheap to run, and produced enough pollution to actually kill a statistically measurable number of people.

Regards -- Pstu

[jerrod6]

People always say that about a regulated monopoly. Didn't all kinds of energy prices rise through the roof in the 1970's, oil gas AND electricity? Construction costs rose immensely too, making plant construction a nightmare. I think that nuclear plane PECO was constructing was more of a direct cause of rake hikes. The only utilities that escaped that kind of grief were ones which relied almost completely on coal... the kind of coal plants built w/o emission controls which were cheap to build, cheap to run, and produced enough pollution to actually kill a statistically measurable number of people.

Regards -- Pstu

You have a point. I was around during the time our 2 nuclear plants were constructed in the 1980’s. Up until then our rates were steady each year but as soon as Plant 1 began construction we faced rate increases every June. PECO wanted a large increase all at once, which the utility commission denied so then our rates increased every year in June. After the first reactor was constructed PECO decided to construct a second one. We were told it would keep prices down. Another 5 or 6 years of rate increases every June until that plant was constructed.

Because PECO could not get the full rate increase at once, the public utility allowed them to recoup the cash they otherwise would have gotten. This recoup was done by applying an unrecoverable rate factor to each bill. This factor was multiplied against the total Kilowatt hours and then the resulting figure was added to the bill. So this is how PECO came to have the highest rates in Pennsylvania. We do the same thing everyone else does – turn lights on, run AC, run heaters, dryers, we just pay more to do it.

Several years ago PECO customers were allowed to choose another provider for electric generation. This is when our bill was segmented into separate charges for generation, transmission, and distribution. PECO provided the distribution to each house so you paid them for that, while paying the energy provider for electricity, and transmission. I chose among many providers and was able to get electric cheaper than PECO’s prices. In a few years the providers pulled out of the state saying that they could not make a profit because electric regulation. So far we don't have as many residental providers as before. Now the state has passed this new law to deregulate electricity and will also force everyone in the state to have smart meters. I have a semi smart one in that no person has to read it because it transmits a reading to the company every morning - I guess that’s all it can do.

Back to heat pumps. Next heating season the electric heating rate will disappear and the info I see now says that the generation and transmission rate is expected to be 10.16 cents per KWH. Is this too high to run a heat pump?

[pstu]

In Texas where I am electric "deregulation" has proceeded in a similar way. The special rates tend to disappear, just like you are seeing. Do you have natural gas utility service in your area? If so I would tend to believe NG prices will not rise enough to keep it from being better than electric heat pumps. Some people will install both a heat pump and NG furnace, they can run whichever system will do the job and be cheaper to run.

It sure look to me though with all the new NG finds in America, that fuel will be plentiful for a long time, and cheaper than most alternatives. I can see this changing only in the event we make a massive change in NG usage, for example running long distance trucks on it like Boone Pickens wants. However NG prices could double and I think it still would be the heating fuel of choice for most of us.

Best of luck -- Pstu

[jerrod6]

I have NG service and use it to heat the house, hot water, dry clothes and have a gas cooktop/electric oven. I was thinking of replacing the Ac with a heat pump and using the gas furance as backup, however am not sure the price can be justified with the new electric rates coming up.

My NG gas is billed by energy and distribution for each CCF(hundred cubic foot) and the current combined price is $1.59847 per CCF, plus a fixed monthly cost of $12. I have seen comparison calculators mentioned on this site and have been trying to search threads for them, of course when you want it, you can’t find it.

[beenthere]

Were you thinking of something like this.

http://www.hvacopcost.com/

[fixitfast]

If you want a LOCAL person I live near LONGWOOD Gardens.Since we cannot do the work at least I can make sure you get a QUALITY job. I have BAILED out a few people on site already.You can get me via my site.


Small world! So do I. I can almost see their water tower from my house.

[jerrod6]

Were you thinking of something like this.

http://www.hvacopcost.com/

Thanks Yes this is what I was thinking about. I guess I put my current system in heating standard along with the cost, although it says cents/therm. Not sure it does dollars and cents. Then I select heat pump in the box below...although I don't see any place to enter the cost per Kwh.

Fixitfast - I grew up around Oxford!

[Jack2007]

Here is one factor causing electric rates to jump.....wind power is more expensive;


The latest wind push is part of Gov. Rendell’s Alternative Energy Portfolio Standard, which mandates 18 percent of electricity generated and sold in Pennsylvania in 2020 must be from a clean, renewable source.

Those options include wind power, solar power, and biofuels, Young said.

“This project to bring alternative energy to the grassroots level will propel the emerging markets even further,” Rendell said.

http://www.farmanddairy.com/news/free-to-a-good-homegrant-adds-pa-wind-turbine-sites/756.html




Alternative energy mandates kill jobs by raising electricity prices.

States with binding renewable portfolio standards, like Pennsylvania, have electricity rates that are nearly 40 percent higher than states with no mandates.

While state electricity costs are affected by other factors, alternative energy mandates necessitate higher energy prices.

Legislation in Pennsylvania, such as House Bill 80 and House Bill 2405, would exacerbate the costs of electricity by mandating that utility companies purchase even more electricity from alternative sources than they are already required.

Pennsylvania's utility companies predict that HB 80 will add between $9 billion and $12 billion to electricity costs to meet proposed mandates by 2024

http://www.commonwealthfoundation.org/research/detail/green-jobs-and-the-broken-window-fallacy



.

[jerrod6]

Just learned that my utility is lowering the gas rate by 10 cents per ccf due to the economy and demand. The rate is still higher comparied to others, but 10 cents is 10 cents.

I also found a calculator that lets you put in your electric and gas rates. It can be found at
http://ces3.ca.uky.edu/energy/calculators.htm

Using this calculator(and I could be off a bit) I see that the cost to use a heat pump with PECO's estimated future rates will cost about 84 dollars more a season than gas, so I guess I have the answer to the question for now.

[jerrod6]

Just to confirm. I received my PECO bill generated on November 29, covering the period from October 26, to November 26. The electric generation rate did indeed increase. It went from .06980 to .09390. The distribution and transmission rate per kwh stayed the same but the transition rate decreased by .0241 cents. All this really did was to make up for the decreased transition charge because we are still being charged a total winter rate of .15270 per kwh.

[pstu]

I think you are seeing what the transition charge is all about, transition from fully regulated to the current form of deregulation. Such charges were the hot topic when the utility I worked for, was negotiating what form of deregulation it would vote for. Pennsylvania had largely similar rules. If it is like Texas, you can look for the generation rate to vary depending on the wholesale rate -- in our case we shop for electric suppliers and the rate often is flat for the term of the contract.

Best of luck -- Pstu

[jerrod6]

The transision rate is from the last time we had energy deregulation in the early 2000's. PECO was allowed to charge this to "make up from their lost" due to electric choice. Last time our electric choice was a flop and we ended up with no choice but have continued to pay transisition costs. This cost has now been lowered but instead they raised the price of generation for 2 months before deregulation re-starts. I am not sure we will have a transition rate in January 2011, when deregulation will begin AGAIN. From what I see the PECO rate will change every quarter of each year.

I think the parent company of PECO - EXCELON is based in Ill, and I think their rates vary by the hour of the day. Our energy choice legislation says that everyone in PA must move to smart meters(PECO's idea?) so I think PECO customers will eventually be paying variable rates by the hour as well--Just My thought about it. I did pick another energy supplier whose rate is fixed through Dec 2011, and will be better than the estimated PECO summer rate of .1140 per KWH. Still none of these rates are as good as the current electric heating rate which will be eliminated after 2011. So I think using a Heat pump for anything is out of the question for now.

[Jack2007]

The transision rate is from the last time we had energy deregulation in the early 2000's. PECO was allowed to charge this to "make up from their lost" due to electric choice. Last time our electric choice was a flop and we ended up with no choice but have continued to pay transisition costs.
Yeah, the political shell game, .........here is a discount but PECO gets to add a different (transition) charge to make it up. Competitors can't compete, customers get screwed.

.

[JohnCap523]

Heat pumps were pushed in Peco territoy for the express purpose of justifying Peach Bottom and Limerick. There are areas of Peco territoy where hardly any gas is available because Peco wanted to encourage electric use to the exclusion of their own gas. In fact, in many cases builders who were told gas wasn't available, found the main when digging....sometimes unpleasantly and almost always with an unpleasant result in demeanor. The longterm result is an unpredented levl of propane use as people with heat pumps seek better alternatvies and builders seek ways to better provide what their prospective buyers want in a new home.

The big shock of deregulation won't be the 5% (or 10% or whatever reality will be) but the removal of the RH and WH rate discounts which will result in a 30-50% overall increase in rates for people with all electric homes. This is something that no one is discussing largely because not may understand it or have reason to seek out the information.

IMO the best option is gas fired in floor radiant heat, or, if warm air is the sole option, a high ef heat pump with has backup, or what is now being referred to as a hybrid system. I don't see gas rates increasing longterm like electric rates. In fact with the free for all going on in gas discoveries across the country, rates SHOULD be dropping.

[JohnCap523]

I have NG service and use it to heat the house, hot water, dry clothes and have a gas cooktop/electric oven. I was thinking of replacing the Ac with a heat pump and using the gas furance as backup, however am not sure the price can be justified with the new electric rates coming up.

My NG gas is billed by energy and distribution for each CCF(hundred cubic foot) and the current combined price is $1.59847 per CCF, plus a fixed monthly cost of $12. I have seen comparison calculators mentioned on this site and have been trying to search threads for them, of course when you want it, you can’t find it.

The additional cost of installing a heat pump compared to an a/c is really negligible and gives you the most flexible system with the option of running it any way you choose. It's definitely the way to go.

[jerrod6]

I have had heat pumps in two prior residences and where comfortable with them even as they ran almost continuously, however we had the special rate. Running constantly at the standard 9 cents to almost 10 cents to who knows what generation rate, plus the distribution and transmission rates billed by each kwh is what has me concened. I probably will not switch out my existing AC unit but might consider a HP when it is time to replace ----except that it is best to replace both inside and outside units and this could mean a new gas furnace as well...No easy solutions yet.

There was one newspaper article that mentioned the elimination of the heating rate and the fact that PECO and the state consumer advocate requested a year delay because they thought it would be too much of a shock to El heat consumers who will see their bills increase this year anyway.

Our gas rates decreased by .10 cents per ccf in December...so that was Decembers good news.

[JohnCap523]

I have had heat pumps in two prior residences and where comfortable with them even as they ran almost continuously, however we had the special rate. Running constantly at the standard 9 cents to almost 10 cents to who knows what generation rate, plus the distribution and transmission rates billed by each kwh is what has me concened. I probably will not switch out my existing AC unit but might consider a HP when it is time to replace ----except that it is best to replace both inside and outside units and this could mean a new gas furnace as well...No easy solutions yet.

There was one newspaper article that mentioned the elimination of the heating rate and the fact that PECO and the state consumer advocate requested a year delay because they thought it would be too much of a shock to El heat consumers who will see their bills increase this year anyway.

Our gas rates decreased by .10 cents per ccf in December...so that was Decembers good news.

The RH rate AND your WH (OP) rate for electric hot water (if you have electric hot water- I'm assuming you have gas) are going away but they're gonna be phased out. The key to an air source (standard non-geothermal) heat pump is the backup and proper sizing (as is for an air conditioner as well, and MOST are not sized properly. If your heat pump is running continuously something is wrong because your back should kick in either at a preset differential (if the heat pump can't keep up) or at a predetermined outside temperature. The key is using each tool optimally. I always manually switched over from heat pump to gas (actually propane) around the middle of December unless it was unusually mild, and then back around early March to let the system run automatically.

We just moved and this house has gas and an a/c but when the time comes to replace it I will go hybrid again with a high efficiency heat pump and gas back up. In fact, unless I opt to zone the house I'm probably gonna put in a split ductless heat pump to handle the finished basement which the previous owners didn't properly configure for HVAC and a loft which I'm sure will be blazing hot this Summer. While the cost of Peco electric is increasing a lot, once the discounts go away the alternative suppliers will be more enticing for RH customers and splits are far more efficient than most standard heat pumps so.... And I don't have much choice unless zoing the existing system works out.

[beenthere]

If your heat pump is running continuously something is wrong because your back should kick in either at a preset differential (if the heat pump can't keep up) or at a predetermined outside temperature.

Depends how cold it is.

[JohnCap523]

Depends how cold it is.

haha, yea, of course, but really, no, the heat pump should not be running continuously under any conditions. If it can't acheive the desired temperature the backup should be kicking in at some point whether it's designed for a 3, 4 o5 degree differential, and based on an outside thermostat it should cut over when it gets to whatever that is set for, 30, 25, 20 degrees etc. No heat pump or air conditioner should be running extremely long cycles.

[beenthere]

haha, yea, of course, but really, no, the heat pump should not be running continuously under any conditions. If it can't acheive the desired temperature the backup should be kicking in at some point whether it's designed for a 3, 4 o5 degree differential, and based on an outside thermostat it should cut over when it gets to whatever that is set for, 30, 25, 20 degrees etc. No heat pump or air conditioner should be running extremely long cycles.

Not 100% correct. Many stats do NOT hold the aux heat on until the set temp is reached. So the heat pump runs continuous. Its extremely long cycles that are the most efficient.

With electric aux heat. The heat pump should not be turned off, until its COP drops to a point that the defrost cycles may it cost more then the aux heat alone.

[JohnCap523]

Not 100% correct. Many stats do NOT hold the aux heat on until the set temp is reached. So the heat pump runs continuous. Its extremely long cycles that are the most efficient.

With electric aux heat. The heat pump should not be turned off, until its COP drops to a point that the defrost cycles may it cost more then the aux heat alone.

Your point is VERY debatable. Steady state motors run more efficiently than cycled motors, but proper cycling of a heat pump or a/c is most efficient, far more efficient that the theoretical steady state. Besides, the point here is why would a heat pump be running constantly. If sized, correctly installed with suitable backup, it shouldn't regardless of outside temp or desired inside temp.

[jerrod6]

I wrote a reply last night but can't find it on the site now but anyway. The constant run I was referring to would happen when the temp was in the teens and single digits. The heat pump would run and there were times when the aux strips would kick in for a while then shut off while the heat pump continued to run. I think the temp had to drop at least 2 1/2 degrees before the strips came on and after it reached within two degrees the strips would turn off while the hp continued to run. If I remember correctly the heat produced at this time was not quite as hot as if you turned the pump off and just ran at the emergency heat setting(strips only)..but it was hot enough to keep the indoor temp from continuing to fall. At first I thought about turnning the pump off and using emergency heat only ....until one day when using EM heat I saw the electric meter spinning itself crazy. I turned the heat pump back on.

This was many years ago and I doubt that there was any outside sensor invovled with the system. During these times when the temp was so low I don't remember having that many defrost cycles. These seemed to occur a lot when the temp was in the mid to lower 30's, but once down in the teens I don't remember being bothered by them- the system would indeed be blowing cold air for a minute or two during the defrost. Still I was happy with the sytem.

[beenthere]

Your point is VERY debatable. Steady state motors run more efficiently than cycled motors, but proper cycling of a heat pump or a/c is most efficient, far more efficient that the theoretical steady state. Besides, the point here is why would a heat pump be running constantly. If sized, correctly installed with suitable backup, it shouldn't regardless of outside temp or desired inside temp.

BS.

Even the old mercury thermostats had the heat pump running 24/7 at low outdoor temps. And just cycled the aux heat on and off, not the heat pump.

Some digitals can be set to satisfy the thermostat's heat call, but not many. And they tend to have very short off times in those set ups. So that the heat pump is only off a minute or 2 at low temps.


Heat pump is sized to the cooling load, not the heating load. So its going to run 24/7 when it gets colder outside.

I've worked in your area. And heat pumps in your area aren't shutting off when it 20 degrees or lower outside. Lot of them weren't shutting off when it was 25 outside.

[beenthere]

I wrote a reply last night but can't find it on the site now but anyway. The constant run I was referring to would happen when the temp was in the teens and single digits. The heat pump would run and there were times when the aux strips would kick in for a while then shut off while the heat pump continued to run. I think the temp had to drop at least 2 1/2 degrees before the strips came on and after it reached within two degrees the strips would turn off while the hp continued to run. If I remember correctly the heat produced at this time was not quite as hot as if you turned the pump off and just ran at the emergency heat setting(strips only)..but it was hot enough to keep the indoor temp from continuing to fall. At first I thought about turnning the pump off and using emergency heat only ....until one day when using EM heat I saw the electric meter spinning itself crazy. I turned the heat pump back on.

This was many years ago and I doubt that there was any outside sensor invovled with the system. During these times when the temp was so low I don't remember having that many defrost cycles. These seemed to occur a lot when the temp was in the mid to lower 30's, but once down in the teens I don't remember being bothered by them- the system would indeed be blowing cold air for a minute or two during the defrost. Still I was happy with the sytem.

On demand defrost has been around for a long time. So its possible you had an early version of on demand defrost control. Which would not have gone into defrost as often at low temps as it did at higher temps when there was more moisture in the air.

[JohnCap523]

I wrote a reply last night but can't find it on the site now but anyway. The constant run I was referring to would happen when the temp was in the teens and single digits. The heat pump would run and there were times when the aux strips would kick in for a while then shut off while the heat pump continued to run. I think the temp had to drop at least 2 1/2 degrees before the strips came on and after it reached within two degrees the strips would turn off while the hp continued to run. If I remember correctly the heat produced at this time was not quite as hot as if you turned the pump off and just ran at the emergency heat setting(strips only)..but it was hot enough to keep the indoor temp from continuing to fall. At first I thought about turnning the pump off and using emergency heat only ....until one day when using EM heat I saw the electric meter spinning itself crazy. I turned the heat pump back on.

This was many years ago and I doubt that there was any outside sensor invovled with the system. During these times when the temp was so low I don't remember having that many defrost cycles. These seemed to occur a lot when the temp was in the mid to lower 30's, but once down in the teens I don't remember being bothered by them- the system would indeed be blowing cold air for a minute or two during the defrost. Still I was happy with the sytem.

When the auxiliary, or backup kicks in you should feel considerably hotter air than what the heat pump produces. If not, there could be a problem with the backup, especially electric.

Yes, a common misconception people make about electric resistance heat is that it is "more efficient". Yes, it is, it's 100% fuel efficient meaning there's no heat loss in the process of making heat like there is with fossil fuels, but that doesn't mean it's cheaper to operate, because it's more efficient. An old 70% efficient gas furnace is less costly to run than electric resistance heat (the typical heat pump backup where there's not gas available). For me, what makes heat pumps a dog in the north is the lack of a good back alternative like gas or propane, and where gas is available people seldom think to install a heat pump and optimize their choices. It's a weird thing. I've asked builders how much extra for a heat pump with gas rather than just a/c and they look at me like I'm a Martian. It could be a great marketing tool for them and great for their buyers but they just don't have a clue. Everyone wants to do everything as cheaply as possible without consideration for the longterm cost (and comfort).

[jerrod6]

Yeah builders want to do everything on the cheap, but I agree that a hp with gas backup might be the thing to do which is why I was thinking about doing it since I have natural gas. With the little I know about today's electric pricing and the future removal of the EH rate, I am going to take a wait and see moment and not just scrap my exisiting working system(aboslutely nothing wrong with it)just to put a hp in.

[JohnCap523]

Yeah builders want to do everything on the cheap, but I agree that a hp with gas backup might be the thing to do which is why I was thinking about doing it since I have natural gas. With the little I know about today's electric pricing and the future removal of the EH rate, I am going to take a wait and see moment and not just scrap my exisiting working system(aboslutely nothing wrong with it)just to put a hp in.

What happens with rates really is irrelevent to the discussion. If you want the best system (for warm air aside from a groundsource Geothermal) it doesn't matter what will happen with electric rates,really, does it? What is likely the scenario is Peco's rates are going to 10+ cents in April. The RH discount is supposed to halve so probably an increase from about 6.6 cents to around 8 cents this year and to the full non-discounted 10+ cents (plus future increases) next year. Amounts to a 67% increase over last year's rate for RH (consider that the discount is not for your entire electric consumption but only usage over I believe 500kWh from 12/15 to 3/15?) so it's actually less than 60% but still considerable. At the moment alternative suppliers like Stream can offer under 8 cents but they cannot yet poach electric heat accounts, but when the RH discount goes away you'll have that option as well.

Bottom line is your best option barring geothermal or a hot water system, is a high efficiency heat pump with gas backup, no matter what happens to prices for power.

Are you Peco gas or PGW gas?

[jerrod6]

What happens with rates really is irrelevent to the discussion. If you want the best system (for warm air aside from a groundsource Geothermal) it doesn't matter what will happen with electric rates,really, does it? What is likely the scenario is Peco's rates are going to 10+ cents in April. The RH discount is supposed to halve so probably an increase from about 6.6 cents to around 8 cents this year and to the full non-discounted 10+ cents (plus future increases) next year. Amounts to a 67% increase over last year's rate for RH (consider that the discount is not for your entire electric consumption but only usage over I believe 500kWh from 12/15 to 3/15?) so it's actually less than 60% but still considerable. At the moment alternative suppliers like Stream can offer under 8 cents but they cannot yet poach electric heat accounts, but when the RH discount goes away you'll have that option as well.

Bottom line is your best option barring geothermal or a hot water system, is a high efficiency heat pump with gas backup, no matter what happens to prices for power.

Are you Peco gas or PGW gas?

Part of what concerns me is that they will change the rate every quarter. The other thing that concerns me is that it is not just the electric generation rate that we need to be concerned with. The 10 cents only covers electric generation, it does not cover distribution(every one pays this regardless of electric provider) or transmission which is also billed by KWH. If you add the .0992generation, distribution, and transmission together we are currently paying.15270 per KWH in the winter, so I think this is the rate you would multiply against the KWH instead of .10 cents.

I have PGW gas which also charges variable distribution by CCF. My total rate is 1.49 per CCF plus $12 connect charge. In December I used 91 CCF however 19 of this was hot water and gas dryer. For electric in December I used 865 kwh for $137.

[JohnCap523]

Part of what concerns me is that they will change the rate every quarter. The other thing that concerns me is that it is not just the electric generation rate that we need to be concerned with. The 10 cents only covers electric generation, it does not cover distribution(every one pays this regardless of electric provider) or transmission which is also billed by KWH. If you add the .0992generation, distribution, and transmission together we are currently paying.15270 per KWH in the winter, so I think this is the rate you would multiply against the KWH instead of .10 cents.

I have PGW gas which also charges variable distribution by CCF. My total rate is 1.49 per CCF plus $12 connect charge. In December I used 91 CCF however 19 of this was hot water and gas dryer. For electric in December I used 865 kwh for $137.

My point is, it really doesn't matter what the price is, within reason, you still would opt for the best combination of units to give you the best comfort, efficiency and value. The added cost of a heat pump compared to a relatively equivalent central air condenser and A-coil isn't a lot of money so to have the option of switching between heat pump or gas whenever you feel like it is still gonna be the best option.

And yes, deregulation makes us flags in the breeze. Someone, some day will explain to me how deregulation works for me! This is a public utility, supposed to theoretically be non-profit, working to serve the public. Why shouldn't their rates be regulated? Now we have this free-for-all that for the life of me I just don't get. Buying power from who knows where that gets sent over the same wires, with the same incumbent company still having to meter it and come out for service and bill it. I just don't get the point. But I WILL be cecking my wires to make sure I get the power I paid for and not someone else's especially since I have opted for green energy. I don't want to see an coal- or oil-fired power coming down my wires.

[flange]

here is a little info for you all, i just paid my oil bill at almost 3.70 per gallon. using about five gallons per day. ugh. but my radiant sure is comfy. cant wait to see my new peco bill this summer when the ac kicks in, for now its minimal at only sixty five bucks or so per month.

[JohnCap523]

here is a little info for you all, i just paid my oil bill at almost 3.70 per gallon. using about five gallons per day. ugh. but my radiant sure is comfy. cant wait to see my new peco bill this summer when the ac kicks in, for now its minimal at only sixty five bucks or so per month.

I swore I'd never buy another house with warm air heat but here I am 35 days into the new house with, ugh, warm air. Had I not bought this one with finished basement I'd be installing under the floor radiant right now and a boiler!

I envy you. And my sinuses envy you!

[jerrod6]

here is a little info for you all, i just paid my oil bill at almost 3.70 per gallon. using about five gallons per day. ugh. but my radiant sure is comfy. cant wait to see my new peco bill this summer when the ac kicks in, for now its minimal at only sixty five bucks or so per month.

Sixty five a month? You must be using under 500kwh. My highest AC bill last summer was 1,425 kwh for $242.....but the house was hot at 80F.

I get the point that being able to switch back and forth between HP and natural gas or something else is the most flexible. I think I heard about a York hybrid system...is that what it is doing...moving beteeen HP and natural gas?

[JohnCap523]

Sixty five a month? You must be using under 500kwh. My highest AC bill last summer was 1,425 kwh for $242.....but the house was hot at 80F.

I get the point that being able to switch back and forth between HP and natural gas or something else is the most flexible. I think I heard about a York hybrid system...is that what it is doing...moving beteeen HP and natural gas?

Yea, they've started calling heat pumps with a fossil fuel backup hybrids. Nothing special about it by brand. Any heat pump with a gas, or even oil, backup can be considered a hybrid.

I used almost 1,300kWh this past month. Can't wait to see my summer bills.

[flange]

na, when i crank up the ac, it goes up a bit to just under two hundy, but most weekends are spent at the shore, and the old vision pro sets back to 78 during the day.

[Surferman]

Nothing to do with PECO, but PPL has just started a new time of day pricing plan in January 2011 that will be significantly cheaper - meaning about .06 kwh off peak, .07 kwh peak (5-7PM winter) and much cheaper than current fixed price plans. Yes it is bait and switch but it will save you 20% until they change in May 11. Go with it now and switch later depending on rates.

To all Pennsylvanians I'd like to once again publicly thank Gov Ridge for creating the electric dereg and pension increase in PA. He signed both and we all got shafted, but that's typical of America.

[jerrod6]

PECO is owned by the Excelon Corp. I have been to some of the Excelon web sites and see that some of their companies have the ability to charge different rates by the hour. I expect that PECO energy customers will have to do this at some point especially since smart meters are now mandated in PA(I wonder whose Idea that was?). I currently have a semi smart meter because it transmittes my meter reading back to the company every morning.. at least that's what they said...perhaps every hour....so no need for a human meter reader and they generate my bill a few hours after the reading date cut off....good for them--I have the bill on a web site the next day and expected to pay.

Off topic for HVAC but still relevant because many of us were encouraged to heat our homes with EL or are thinking about it, and I still have to wonder what the future will bring for El heating in Pa. I used to enjoy having a HP and even though it might be a flexible option I am still not sure because you really can't trust anything especially a corporation that you can buy stock in.

Go to the Excelon web site. You will see talk their large size, of giving back to the community...is that a good thing? NOT INTERESTED. All I want is reasonable electric rates without having to subsidize the community through my electric bill and some company that really doesn't care a hoot about me--just my bill paying ability.

PECO's current "smart Idea" offer is that they will install a device by your Ac which will turn it off duirng peak hours and you COULD save between 10 and 30%. Ummm you mean when it is hot and you need it? when it's cold and you need it...and I am supposed to want someone else controlling my unit? I guess I am just angry about it.

Sticking with natural gas furnace for now.

[JohnCap523]

PECO is owned by the Excelon Corp. I have been to some of the Excelon web sites and see that some of their companies have the ability to charge different rates by the hour. I expect that PECO energy customers will have to do this at some point especially since smart meters are now mandated in PA(I wonder whose Idea that was?). I currently have a semi smart meter because it transmittes my meter reading back to the company every morning.. at least that's what they said...perhaps every hour....so no need for a human meter reader and they generate my bill a few hours after the reading date cut off....good for them--I have the bill on a web site the next day and expected to pay.

Off topic for HVAC but still relevant because many of us were encouraged to heat our homes with EL or are thinking about it, and I still have to wonder what the future will bring for El heating in Pa. I used to enjoy having a HP and even though it might be a flexible option I am still not sure because you really can't trust anything especially a corporation that you can buy stock in.

Go to the Excelon web site. You will see talk their large size, of giving back to the community...is that a good thing? NOT INTERESTED. All I want is reasonable electric rates without having to subsidize the community through my electric bill and some company that really doesn't care a hoot about me--just my bill paying ability.

PECO's current "smart Idea" offer is that they will install a device by your Ac which will turn it off duirng peak hours and you COULD save between 10 and 30%. Ummm you mean when it is hot and you need it? when it's cold and you need it...and I am supposed to want someone else controlling my unit? I guess I am just angry about it.

Sticking with natural gas furnace for now.

I worked for Peco for 15 years. The nuclear guys who took over after the mid-90s debacle ran it so far into the ground, had Exelon not come along they'd have been a penny stock. As it was the stock was down udner $5. Exelon is a good company. Peco was when it was Philadelphia Electric, but as Peco Energy, before Exelon, it was crap.

Variable rates are coming. We had them before with the WH, or OP, rate for hot wather heating that was first mechanically and then remotely interrupted both by time of day and then when peek demands were in force. But interrupting a water heater and other stuff you might have connected like a dryer is completely different than allowing your air conditioner or heat pump to be shut off because it's too cold or too hot, as you said, when you need it most.

The most likely scneario is you'll pay higher rates for mid afternoon summertime use compared to use at 3AM. I think PP&L just announced that kind of variable rate structure as an option.

[jerrod6]

Today’s Philadelphia Inquirer states that PECO, as required by the deregulating law, is phasing out the discounts for electric heating and off-peak water heating. They will be cut in half by at the end of the year and phased out completely by the end of 2012. They are mailing out notices over the next 3 months so that their switchboards don't get jammed with calls.

There are an estimated 141,000 residents who get the heating discount, 65,000 receive the off-peak water discounts and 9,000 get both.

If you are a heat pump installer in this area how will this affect you?

If you are a PECO Energy heating or off peak water heater customer what impact will this phase out have on you?

[JohnCap523]

Brace for the spray from the proverbial poop hitting the fan!