410a

[ProgressiveAir]

If a contractor was to purchase a 30lb cylinder of 410a,
but only needed 12 lbs, would the contractor likely
keep or dispose of the remaining refrigerant?

If so, would it remain in the same container, or
would additional steps need to be taken by the contractor to reuse the
rest of the 410a in the cylinder?

[DPSwitch]

Why would one ask that?

[ProgressiveAir]

One would ask that if a contractor is charging one
for the entire cylinder of 410a, saying that the
remaining 18 pounds can't be used.

One would want to know if contractor knows what he is talking
about.

[snack pack]

One would ask that if a contractor is charging one
for the entire cylinder of 410a, saying that the
remaining 18 pounds can't be used.

One would want to know if contractor knows what he is talking
about.

why would one pay for something they aren't getting?:confused:

[Advanced Response]

Sounds like you are dealing with a contractor hopefully a licensed hvac contractor that has not dealt with or installed any 410a units and will not service your unit without buying and new jug of 410a(he does not currently have a jug) and must charge you for the whole cost of the jug because he is behind the times and doesn't service 410a units on a regular basis..

So yes if you are using a small hvac contractor that does not install or service 410a units on regular basis and does not operate the business with the proper profit ratio then yes you will have to pay him what ever cost he is charging you for the 25lb 410a jug and he may not use the remainder of it for until his next 410a job.. He will not leave the partial jug with you..No contrator would.

I would recommend finding a hvac contractor that deals with 410a on a regular basis but you may find that their cost of doing the job is just as high or higher than this guy but they may be around in the future if you have problems with your system..

This sounds more like a side show bob repair than a true hvac company repair.. You get what you pay for..

Goodluck
J

[DPSwitch]

One should ask to be credited for the balance because one doesn't think he should be buying the next customers refrigerant

[beenthere]

Sooner or later he will have use for the rest of that refrigerant.
Sounds a little shady.

If he won't budge on you paying for the entire jug.
Tell him you want the jug you paid for.
No EPA cert required to buy or own R410A..


The big question is. What happened to the 12lbs, that you need to replace it?

[ProgressiveAir]

advanced-Good call. dealing with a guy who does mostly commercial service work these days.
dp-Thanks, that's what I was getting at.

beenthere- yes if I must pay for it, then I will keep the jug. good idea!
And this guy appears to grow more shady by the day.

And the reason 12 lbs was necessary was because this was an installation
of the new Acadia Heat Pump. It comes with a nitrogen charge, and no refrigerant. I don't know what to make of that either.

[tinknocker service tech]

i dont think i am following this correctly but if you are supplying the refrigerant to this guy then you have the right to charge the going rate per pound for the refrigerant. Why are you giving it to him for free or cost. 410-a is costly and you have every right to a mark up per pound JMHO

[I_bend_metal]

And the reason 12 lbs was necessary was because this was an installation of the new Acadia Heat Pump. It comes with a nitrogen charge, and no refrigerant. I don't know what to make of that either.


I am in no way trying to be a smartazz here, but if I don't ask it someone else will....was this contractor the "lowest bidder" by chance??

And to whoever said "you get what you paid for".....as we say in poker....thats the dead nuts!

[DPSwitch]

Heck I woulda never mentioned the refrigerant and just added the cost of an entire jug to the price If I wanted you to pay for it......

my bills are written as follows..... Labor + Material = $XXXXXX.

[ProgressiveAir]

tin- It's sort of a long story. Was just trying to figure out if the contractor could reuse the refrigerant, and the board had told me he definitely can.

bend - no, he was the second most expensive, and keeps getting unexpectedly more expensive by the day.

[I_bend_metal]

tin- It's sort of a long story. Was just trying to figure out if the contractor could reuse the refrigerant, and the board had told me he definitely can.

bend - no, he was the second most expensive, and keeps getting unexpectedly more expensive by the day.

I see....where I come from a quote is a quote....if I tell you it will cost xx to put in yout new heat pump...then that is what it will cost. I don't come back and tack things on to the price...let alone the cost of the refridgerant. If this guy has little experience with 410 as we all suspect....I would check out a few other threads on here and make sure he knows how to properly prepare the system for 410....microns...evacuation...nitrogen purge...and so on...he can charge you for everything under the sun but if it isn't installed properly....you are never going to be happy with it.

[DPSwitch]

I agree Ibend ...... I wouldnt add that ever, cause I'd look like a moron, I'd find something else to add.... lol

[I_bend_metal]

After your house load is calculated and a size is decided on...then you pick the efficiency you are looking for and then you get a price....not "well this is where we'll start and as we go I will add things on" That's the craziest thing I have ever heard of!! I would throw someone like that right off my property....unfortunately that's the kind of contractor that gives everyone a bad name.

[tinknocker service tech]

If a contractor was to purchase a 30lb cylinder of 410a,
but only needed 12 lbs, would the contractor likely
keep or dispose of the remaining refrigerant?

If so, would it remain in the same container, or
would additional steps need to be taken by the contractor to reuse the
rest of the 410a in the cylinder?


To answer your question
yes he would use what is needed for the job and then charge you per pound for the ammount he used. The rest goes back on the truck till it is need then the same process for thenext customer.

you should be paying for the amount you need and by the pound. This is why most of us have a scale under the jug when we add refrigerant. What is charged per pound depends on the cost of the jug and the price the contractor charges per pound.

Do you own the jug NO he does since he purcased it. He is selling you the refrigerant by the pound if he is legit.

[ProgressiveAir]

bend- that's an interesting point. I need to read up on preparing for
410. The guy told me he was surprised there was no 410a, because most units already come with it.

tin-that's what I suspected. I'm impressed by the Knowledge on this board.

[I_bend_metal]

bend- that's an interesting point. I need to read up on preparing for
410. The guy told me he was surprised there was no 410a, because most units already come with it.

tin-that's what I suspected. I'm impressed by the Knowledge on this board.

There are many wrong ways to prepare a new install for 410. There is really only one correct way however. Moisture is the absolute enemy of any A/C system and removing (and preventing) as much as you possibly can during the install will do alot to give that system a long life. I would check with him and ask him what his procedures are for installing 410. Chances are he doesn't have any because he has never done it?!? Especially if he is trying to get you to buy the whole jug of juice! I would definately be interested to hear how he is going to install that thing!

[bzzline]

Sounds like a good deal to me. I need to charge three times the price per lb on refrigerent to stay in business. A lot of companys charge this rate plus will also bill you for what your unit will hold (data plate) not what they put in it.
You agreed on it why are you not satisfied?

[Dallas Duster]

Sounds like a good deal to me. I need to charge three times the price per lb on refrigerent to stay in business. A lot of companys charge this rate plus will also bill you for what your unit will hold (data plate) not what they put in it.
You agreed on it why are you not satisfied?

Are you serious about what the unit hold what a rip off.

[tinknocker service tech]

Are you serious about what the unit hold what a rip off.


he was talking from dead empty/ Some units take more then what the name plate says because on the lenth on the refrigerant lines

this unit was shipped from the supplier empty with a nitrogen holing charge
may have also taken more then 12lbs to fill it.

[Dallas Duster]

Thats not the way it sounded to me if it says it has refrigerant on the data plate it must have some in it and not nitrogen.

[bzzline]

You cannot be that suprised

[Dallas Duster]

Sure I am when a dealer buys a unit from a distributor they are paying for the refrigerant in the unit , then that is already being passed on to the customer via unit mark-up. Then to charge someone for the already marked up refrigerant does not seem ethical .

[tinknocker service tech]

And the reason 12 lbs was necessary was because this was an installation
of the new Acadia Heat Pump. It comes with a nitrogen charge, and no refrigerant. I don't know what to make of that either.



as it has been said the unit in question was shipped empty. This isnt all that uncommon with comercial units and yes the coustomer has to pay for the refrigerant. It is either figured into the bid or it is an extra as in this case.

the unit needed a min of 12lbs but may have needed more or less depending on the size and lenth of lines

if it were just a topoff then only what was used would have been charged. This is why we have scales on the truck

[Dallas Duster]

That sounds kosher in this case but not on the other.

[bzzline]

That unit may be shipped without refrigerent. I don't know
I installed a system for a guy one time and found out he took my roll of insulation an put it in the barn.
Trust goes both ways

[Dallas Duster]

The way it sounds like you operate ,he probably got charged for it.

[BigJon3475]

Would you not charge him?

That roll of insulation was for the next job....not for him to save some money somehow on the service call I just got from him.

[Zeus]

Sure I am when a dealer buys a unit from a distributor they are paying for the refrigerant in the unit , then that is already being passed on to the customer via unit mark-up. Then to charge someone for the already marked up refrigerant does not seem ethical .

"Goodlistener"?????, No, not all units come with refrigerant in them. There are alot of units that have zero refrigerant in them when shipped. Those units are therefore charged with nitrogen. This has been stated numerous times but you seem to not be listening/reading the post. Why do they do this you ask? Well, with large systems that hold a large amount of refrigerant if the unit happens to be damaged during transportation all of that refrigerant is lost and treehuggers across the globe flip out. If the unit is charged with nitrogen the environmental impact is a "little" less. Also, i'm not sure of this since i am not in the transportation industry but I would imagine that there is a limit of some sort placed on the amount of refrigerant that can be transported in a single piece of equipment. I may be wrong but I'm sure if I am I will be corrected and severly punished.

[DPSwitch]

One thing you guys should try to bear in mind.... The contractor can charge whatever price they want, to make what they need to keep the vans rolling. The guy in question here we are beating up, because he isn't very bright thats all.

Let me separate it out here

- Telling a customer you cant use the rest of the refrigerant in the drum so they have to pay for it all -- WRONG

- Charging the customer for only what was used but marking it up so it makes more than a full drum-- PERFECTLY OK

The way this guy went about it is stupid, so I say make him pay the difference, but don't think he has any obligation to sell you refrigerant at cost, he is reselling and can set his prices accordingly.

[Dallas Duster]

Of all the condensing units and package units I have ever picked up everyone of them came with refrigerant but these were name brand units. The only chillers that I have started up that didnt have refrigerant were splits with remote condenser or coolers so it was already known that there is only a nitrogen charge. I guess it would be easier to swallow if it was a standard practice.

[Dallas Duster]

Sounds like a good deal to me. I need to charge three times the price per lb on refrigerent to stay in business. A lot of companys charge this rate plus will also bill you for what your unit will hold (data plate) not what they put in it.
You agreed on it why are you not satisfied?

I only started responding when I saw this post, All the units shipped with a charge have the amount on the data plate units shipped without usually have that spot empty so how do you know how much the unit will hold and not the entire lineset and evaporator coil?

[jrbenny]

See Note 3. (http://www.gotohallowell.com/assets/Acadia_Spec_SheetLR.pdf)

Google is your friend.

[Mr Bill]

Man, if I could have got by with that selling R-22 all these years I could retire now, yes sir you need a couple lbs of freezon but you have to buy the whole jug I cannot just sell you a couple lbs,man ching,ching. :eek:

[mark beiser]

R-410A doesn't come in 30# quantities, there is only 25# of refrigerant in cylinder. ;)

[jrbenny]

If you can't get 50# from a 25# jug, you're fired!

[DPSwitch]

You can as long as your last few customers bought you a whole jug.....lol

[brian in mass]

I don't know the particular unit mentioned.....but perhaps the individual lost the charge ? Just a thought.
I think whoever said it earlier was on target.....if he isn't used to doing 410a, is he doing it right ? Or maybe, the install was great....worthy of the "wall of pride".....he just happens to run his buisness like a monkey and say stupid stuff and lie. I've met guys who did really nice work, but were dumb as a stump and didn't carry themselves well in front of customers. Who knows...who cares......think of it this way, Maybe you now have a big pink conversation piece on your living room table ?!!

[beenthere]

Brian.
The unit comes from factory with no charge in it.
Check out the link benny posted.