Very bad installation experience, need advice

[irwin_fletcher]

Hi,

We just went through an excruciating experience with a full system replacement. Short story is that we have some physical damage to the equipment and to our home and lots of things went wrong along the way. I don't want to go into any details while this is still pending and I won't release the contractor's name.

I need advice on how to proceed. Based on the installation experience, I have no confidence that this thing is going to last, or that the huge investment I made is not in jeopardy.

Should I pay another HVAC contractor to inspect it or would they even do that? What about American Standard? Is there a factory rep near Austin, TX that I could call?

How do I ensure that the contractor fixes or pays to fix the damage to our house?

Any help or advice would be really appreciated.

fletch

[bahvaco]

Have you told the installing co. that there are problems yet?

That's the first thing that I would do.

Have you payed them the full amount yet?

That's the last thing I would do. ;)

[mlo1]

Having just gone through a similiar ordeal. I feel for you. Look up a post titled the "better business bureau" in the general forum and read it.

I wasted nearly two months with the BBB and the HVAC contractor. The state attorney general had quick success. I also sent the contractor a reciept returned letter asking for his bond and liscensing info.

My experience trying to bring in other HVAC tradespeople behind my hack job, was not good. Clearly they would have prefered to start from fresh and thier pricing reflected it. I ultimately requested and recieved that my original contractor remove everything from the premises and refund my money or be expected to pay for any retrofits and repairs.

Be polite, firm and tenacious.

[irwin_fletcher]

Having just gone through a similiar ordeal. I feel for you. Look up a post titled the "better business bureau" in the general forum and read it.

I wasted nearly two months with the BBB and the HVAC contractor. The state attorney general had quick success. I also sent the contractor a reciept returned letter asking for his bond and liscensing info.

My experience trying to bring in other HVAC tradespeople behind my hack job, was not good. Clearly they would have prefered to start from fresh and thier pricing reflected it. I ultimately requested and recieved that my original contractor remove everything from the premises and refund my money or be expected to pay for any retrofits and repairs.

Be polite, firm and tenacious.

mlo1,

Thanks for the advice. I read your BBB thread, and I feel for YOU :eek:

I don't think my situation is as bad as yours was. The system is installed and running but as I said things went wrong and I don't trust it.

fletch

[air2spare]

Call the contractor and let him know you expect him to do the right thing, using diplomacy is always the fair and right thing to do for both parties involved but if He blows you off start here.

http://www.license.state.tx.us/Complaints/

[bell3156]

The first thing you should do is call and ask to speak with the owner or the service manager. Be polite, explain your situation and ask for thier best tech or lead tech to go over your system, The tech should be honest and upfront with you. Let them know what you expect, if you purchased an american standerd you should be able to put the trane extended warranty on the unit. this maybe something the installing contractor maybe willing to do if he did'nt lowball the job, if this was one of the lower bids, it will be harder to get settled, being that there was nothing in the bid for this kind of situation. Had you of gone with a trane unit, you could have called trane directly, with an american standerd there are just no channels to go thru, if you found out who the contractor bought the unit from, you could start there after you have already gone through the steps with the contractor, deal with the contractor first, after that you can conntact the ROC anxd the BBB

[DanW13]

"if this was one of the lower bids, it will be harder to get settled, being that there was nothing in the bid for this kind of situation. Had you of gone with a trane unit, you could have called trane directly, with an american standerd there are just no channels to go thru"

I have to say the statement above is a pretty poor one to make, even though I have no bussiness responding to this post but I do read most post here on this forum I don't see that it matters if the contractor came in with the lowest bid or the highest bid the work should be just as good as the highest bid contractor..... And it also should not matter if this was a American Standard or a Trane furnace there should always be someone to stand behind there product regardless of brand !!!! The statement made above by bell3156I feel is nothing more than a cop out to not stand behind one's work or product they are sellling, or craftsmanship.

My advise to the op would be to go over the contractor's head should they not respond to you in a timely manner and fix the items you have problems with. Also I would call the warehouse/Distrubutor and talk to him and ask if he can do anything to help you out and the BBB. If those place's do not help you I would think about calling your local news station who may do special segments on people being ripped off or not getting there problems resolved with the contractor and put this guy in the spot light in your local area will more than likely do more damage to him if he decide's not to come thru as a bussiness man should.

[irwin_fletcher]

A couple of points, if it helps. This was not the lowest bid, and it was not a big company. One guy with a truck, who brought two helpers.

fletch

[tigerdunes]

get pictures and detailed documentation including dates.

I would contact your dealer with this information by certified mail with copy to the local American Standard distributor who should have a qualified residential specialist on their staff.

Is HVAC company a certified Am Std dealer?

You can also send Am Std a certified letter or an email through their website link. See below.

Sorry for your trouble.

IMO

http://www.americanstandardair.com/SiteInfo/ContactUs.aspx

[dash]

If they truely wronged you,there's enough suggestions on how to proceed.Not enough information here to to tell if you have a real issue or not.

Hoping you get it resolved by working with the contractor.

[bell3156]

Dan
I now it is probably upsetting as a consumer , but contractors just dont arbitrarily charge more, To think that the lowest bid and the highest bid are going to be the exact same install, that is just not how it is, When you deal with trane, there are avenues set up by the manufacturer to deal with the consumer directly. american standerd is sold at a supply house, where you pic up universal a/c parts... there are channels you can get to, but they just don't have the same kind of support. first you have to find out where he bought the unit.

I would not go above his head if I could help it. Now since he is a smaller company, the profit on this job could make the difference between keeping his lights on or not (of course I do not know his financial situation). There are benifits to using smaller contractors and benifits to using larger ones, The biggest benifit to using a larger one is customer satisfaction, they would have money set aside to cover the expense of redoing your install.

I'm not trying to cop out here ( I didn't install the unit) just trying to help. If you feel your not getting anywhere with this guy then go through the other channels, if you have no confidence...Call in another company to take a look at it...
Good luck, Just trying to help
I take care of these kind of situations for a larger company, we do everything we can within reason to saisfy the consumer before it gets to the roc or the bbb.

[Dog]

Why did it go this far did'nt you look at the install in progress if you saw things you did'nt like or agree with you should have talked to the contractor then, much less pay for it, The fact of high or low bid ,what unit was used does not matter if the terms you disscussed were not met then it should of be stopped in progress or corrected to you liking, BEFORE you pay the guy for rest of job.

[irwin_fletcher]

Why did it go this far did'nt you look at the install in progress if you saw things you did'nt like or agree with you should have talked to the contractor then, much less pay for it, The fact of high or low bid ,what unit was used does not matter if the terms you disscussed were not met then it should of be stopped in progress or corrected to you liking, BEFORE you pay the guy for rest of job.

Interesting comments.

fletch

[flange]

I feel for you. As you will find out most contractors will stand up and do the right thing. Did you try to get resolution? Is the contractor aware of your issues? As an owner, I try to make sure that my clients are completely satisfied prior to paying the invoice. Do small things sometimes get missed? yes of course, but most guys will take care of them. Speak with the guy. if he blows you off, then you have a reason to go after him. Di something go wrong.....sounds like it. Did you give him the chance to make good......doesnt sound like you did, YET. Try it you may just be surprised!

[zipscrew]

i know it was a big investment and all, but you aren't really telling us anything. i would drop the drama and get on with the story. i do think excruciating is a code violation.

[skippedover]

"... I don't see that it matters if the contractor came in with the lowest bid or the highest bid the work should be just as good as the highest bid contractor.....

Obviously you're naive and don't understand the industry. Our company provides the highest level of installation expertise and the best warranties in the industry. That means we have to pay more for installers, drug testing, background checks, experience and knowledge. Those installers come at a higher price than the ones who smoke pot while waiting for stock at the supply house and the ones who can't get a job in a good shop because of their arrest records and criminal past. Our service techs attend endless classes with manufacturers and even 1/2 hour ever single workday morning ON THIER OWN TIME just trying to better themselves for the benefit of the client and the company. These people require high pay and good benefits. Our trucks are all lettered so you know who's in your dirveway and our men are all uniformed so you know where they came from. Even if there are 4 or 5 other companies working simultaneously, you can always find our guys easily. So yes, our prices are considerably higher than most of our competitors. The fact that we do it correctly, with Manuals 'J', 'D' and 'S' being followed and guarantee all of our work and the integrity and opreration of the system costs more. If you think you'll get the same car for $13,000 as you do for $43,000, think again. Same thing in our industry. You get what you pay for. Choose the low bid, throw yourself under the bus. When the bus runs over you, blame yourself. If you're going to make an investment of many thousands of dollars, you can gamble and save two or three thousand, then spend that and more either getting it brought up to standards or fighting to get the original low bid to do it the way you WANTED it done but weren't williing to PAY to have it done. You get what you pay for. The man made a legitimate statement in my book. If the claimant took the low bid, he's probably not going to get much satisfaction from the low bidder. That's just the way it works in reality. That may not meet with your approval but that's the way it is here in Dodge City, pardner.

[Dog]

Or one of your lead man that you have trained and schooled could leave and be the low bidder andgive him just as good or better job than your company at a lower price Remember this is America

[skippedover]

Or one of your lead man that you have trained and schooled could leave and be the low bidder andgive him just as good or better job than your company at a lower price Remember this is America

Not likely. We run a very open company. Any of our personnel is more than welcome to inspect the books at any time. And they have. They know what it costs to provide the level of installation expertise and warranties and guarantees we provide. So far, in 20-years, we've never lost anyone who's gone into business himself. The make good enough money to stick around and not have to worry about how to bring in the next lead.

[dynamic098]

Wow, I can tell you one thing, I don't smoke pot while waiting for stock, and I can say that I will often be on the lower side of bidding. I have testimonials, stating that my work is quality, and correct. The reason I would be at the lower side, is my overhead doesn't consist of uniforms. I have a complete, stocked truck, I always look professional when going to work, I have invested in a decent stock of necessary materials- I even have competitors call me for parts over the weekends, and a I have better knowledge of my trade than many of my competitors by investing in many evening training classes, countless nights on the internet researching my trade, reading trade magazines and books. I have no overhead. My bills are paid for, my truck,tools, and inventory are paid for. Because I am sometimes the low bidder, does not mean that my work is not quality. Because I have no overhead and a low bid, does not mean that the next customer I work for will not receive the same quality work as a shop that has new trucks, high priced mechanics , drug tests, and uniforms,? Perhaps, I just don't know how to bid. There are many reasons for a low bid, and I can tell you, that I am prepared for a tough 2008. I read in the PHC magazine today that it is a bleak outlook for resdiential constructio in 2008. I am glad I have no overhead, and I can say with pride, that I am glad I looked out for my future when things were busy in 05-06. Not everyone will be able to say that. I know one thing, the first rule of business, when receivables aren't coming in, you must cut your expenses. And people costs are the highest expense.

Keep in mind, there will always be a low bidder, and that, is never the best gauge for quality of work. The ONLY way to know that, is to research the company that you intend on using prior to the start of the project. Most quality contractors that I know, will supply testimonials, pictures, and even have job sites that you can look at.

You have never answered the question yet, have you spoken with the installing contractor about your concerns ? What did he do so badly, that you have lost faith in him ? Have you given him the opportunity to fix his/your issues ?

[tinknocker service tech]

Hi,

We just went through an excruciating experience with a full system replacement. Short story is that we have some physical damage to the equipment and to our home and lots of things went wrong along the way. I don't want to go into any details while this is still pending and I won't release the contractor's name.

I need advice on how to proceed. Based on the installation experience, I have no confidence that this thing is going to last, or that the huge investment I made is not in jeopardy.

Should I pay another HVAC contractor to inspect it or would they even do that? What about American Standard? Is there a factory rep near Austin, TX that I could call?

How do I ensure that the contractor fixes or pays to fix the damage to our house?

Any help or advice would be really appreciated.

fletch


If you have concerns about the new system then call the manufacture express your concerns and ask to have thier rep come and look it over. Keep in mind if the rep comes he will also bring the installing comtractor with him

[bell3156]

well said skip
There is always going to be a place for small one and two man operations, the down fall is customer service. there are only so many hrs in the day, when the phone starts ringing, your stuck in the position of making money on the calls that are coming in, or taking care of your customer and chance loosing a new one, it is a tough position to be in. The smaller guys have great loyal customers and have a great relationship with them. The problem is when they do have a problem and they cant wait for you. Or have lost confidence in you or your one or two employees. A large company has the resources to satisfy more complaints and handle more potential customers. customer may see a new face here and there and it is just not as personal of an experiance..And they charge more...there are pro's and cons to both...

[DanW13]

Skippedover I am not going to get into a nasty arguement here over what I said and I surely am not NAIVE !!!! I could high light some of your analogies and repost them here especially when you compare cars to your trade and say you get what you pay for is really a terrible comparison for you to use, I know what this industry is as well as others of how they work and operate I really do, Do you really think everyone has to pay high dollars to get quaility workmanship. But here the problem was the install not the equipment and to say if you go with a low bidder your not going to get a quaility install is ludicrious to say the least, and to insinuate that getting the contractor who was one of the highest bids will get a good install is way out of line as well. I am sure there are alot of guys here on this forum that can prove you wrong on your theory of high bid better job, low bid bad job. If a small contractor does low bidding and quaility work why does the majority in this forum always feel people are not going to get the same or better quaility of service than a high bidding contractor who has more guys working for him, I just do not understand that thinking !!! My contractor who has himself and 3 other guys work for him do great work and also give quaility service to his customers just the same if not better than a large outfit who may have 20 guys working for him, service is service and should not matter if that same service is coming form a large or small company, or from one who was the low bidder. If the guy is able to bid the same job with the same parts and same service more power to him and as dynamic stated the little guy might not have the overhead as he may have the trunks paid for, the shop paid for, and is able to pay for all his tools and equipment upfront, and have all parts on his trunk paid which enables him to bid jobs low. Maybe he does all his own hiring and firing and is able to hire competent people without having to worry about POT HEADS, or the like, there's alot little guys who give the same quaility service as the bigger outfit's in this world it's just a matter of how far they stick there necks out into the furture for work and later get themselves into a bind because they can not do all the work they promised 3 or 4 months ealier when they were slow and needing "job security". I have see this happen with alot of contractors and not just in this trades either. So I don't think the small guy or low bidder should always get the blame because they are who they are or because they came in on the low end and won the job. And as far as equipment goes that should not matter as it's all about the proper install not the equipment, granted you can only convince the customer of doing so much as far as suggesting they do this or that and have this installed now and not later as that may play a role in the call back end of things because of the customers failure of not going with what the contractor suggested prior to the install. But bottom line is big or small, low or high equipment is equipment and craftmanship will always have your name on it.

[bell3156]

Dan w

It sounds like you found a great contractor, and your happy with him. Are you a general contractor? A large contractor cannot mach the price of a smaller company for many reasons. I can tell you of the low bidder nightmare installs that I have seen and repaired. Some have been so bad we have to refuse to work on them untill the unit was reinstalled, I have lost our customers to only return and give estimates to reinstall the unit. that being said. When I come upon a customer and I know he is going to shop around I will give him the name of companies that are lower in price and do great work. we are getting off topic here....

[HeyBob]

Hi,

I don't want to go into any details while this is still pending and I won't release the contractor's name.

fletch




Fletch,

Bad idea, do not name that contractor. Thanks!

Bob

[Twilly]

Fletch,

Bad idea, do not name that contractor. Thanks!

Bob


Twilli says thanks HeyBob, Twilli don't need the bad press

[Twilly]

Not likely. We run a very open company. Any of our personnel is more than welcome to inspect the books at any time. And they have. They know what it costs to provide the level of installation expertise and warranties and guarantees we provide. So far, in 20-years, we've never lost anyone who's gone into business himself. The make good enough money to stick around and not have to worry about how to bring in the next lead.


Twilli isn't really sure thats such a good testimony.:confused:

[Dog]

Awfull Cocky A Twilli, I agree who wants to work for a guy who says that ?
Be carefull people will start to resent you for saying things to them like that!!!:rolleyes:

[irwin_fletcher]

Fletch,

Bad idea, do not name that contractor. Thanks!

Bob

In the text you quoted and in my original post, it specifically says that I have no intention of naming the contractor here.

fletch

[irwin_fletcher]

Awfull Cocky A Twilli, I agree who wants to work for a guy who says that ?
Be carefull people will start to resent you for saying things to them like that!!!:rolleyes:

twilli is an artist with the written word. Go back and study his prose, as you have missed the subtlety of his message.

fletch

[irwin_fletcher]

If you have concerns about the new system then call the manufacture express your concerns and ask to have thier rep come and look it over. Keep in mind if the rep comes he will also bring the installing comtractor with him

Thank you. I was hoping that someone here would help me with a contact at American Standard. At this point, I just want to chat with them on the phone about what happened and ask about what I should do next. Specifically I was hoping for something like, "Yeah, Bob at American Standard is a nice guy and here's his number..." I thought the manufacturer might be good to talk to, as they have to warranty it for the next 10 years.

As to the other questions, the original contractor and I are still working through the process.

fletch