Somebody please explain this to me

[icehouse]

:confused::confused:I have been reading here and else where how a so called "Technician" has one set of gauges, one clamp on and maybe one multimeter. God forbid that he or she has a micron guage or megohmeter. Yet they complain that they are not making money. Also training classes, the last Manitowac class I attended had more ole-timers then you could shake a stick at.

[dngtig]

:confused::confused:I have been reading here and else where how a so called "Technician" has one set of gauges, one clamp on and maybe one multimeter. God forbid that he or she has a micron guage or megohmeter. Yet they complain that they are not making money. Also training classes, the last Manitowac class I attended had more ole-timers then you could shake a stick at.

And your point:confused:

[krriffle]

One of my fellow techs actually said I was crazy for spending the amount of money I spend on tools. Well I make a lot more than he does.

[beachtech]

:confused::confused:I have been reading here and else where how a so called "Technician" has one set of gauges, one clamp on and maybe one multimeter. God forbid that he or she has a micron guage or megohmeter. Yet they complain that they are not making money. Also training classes, the last Manitowac class I attended had more ole-timers then you could shake a stick at.

you have to have patience of an ole-timer to work on ice machines!! really. i have no patience for that crap. maybe they are just tune-up techs working with that limited amount of tools :D

bet those ole timers can whip your ass in fixing a ise machine though :) i've been schooled by an old timer, still haven't forgot the lesson he taught me and that was 5 years ago!!

[beachtech]

One of my fellow techs actually said I was crazy for spending the amount of money I spend on tools. Well I make a lot more than he does.

a tech is only as good as the tools he has :) whether they be books or piles of iron or 20 meters :D

[dngtig]

you have to have patience of an ole-timer to work on ice machines!! really. i have no patience for that crap. maybe they are just tune-up techs working with that limited amount of tools :D

bet those ole timers can whip your ass in fixing a ise machine though :) i've been schooled by an old timer, still haven't forgot the lesson he taught me and that was 5 years ago!!

beachtech, What do you consider an old timer? I am just curious.

[bustawrench1]

:confused::confused:I have been reading here and else where how a so called "Technician" has one set of gauges, one clamp on and maybe one multimeter. God forbid that he or she has a micron guage or megohmeter. Yet they complain that they are not making money. Also training classes, the last Manitowac class I attended had more ole-timers then you could shake a stick at.

Let 'em go, I say.........................

The more stuff they F-up, the better we look when we fix it in no time flat.

[Wheelbaron]

beachtech, What do you consider an old timer? I am just curious.

he walked into that one:D

[t527ed]

i must of been born an old timer.............;)


i always liked working on ice machines, especially the ones the other companies could not fix..


went to my first factory ice machine school when i was a freshman in high school......:D

Frigidaire ice machines at the General Motors training center.....1974:eek::eek:

[bustawrench1]

the General Motors training center.....1974

On Rt 38 in Moorestown??

I used to take care of the RTU's there............small world.

[t527ed]

On Rt 38 in Moorestown??

I used to take care of the RTU's there............small world.



thats the one, i worked on the kitchen equipment and ice maker:D until GM shut it down.

[icehouse]

i must of been born an old timer.............;)


i always liked working on ice machines, especially the ones the other companies could not fix..


went to my first factory ice machine school when i was a freshman in high school......:D

Frigidaire ice machines at the General Motors training center.....1974:eek::eek:
Same here, also took my Automotive A/C training there. Definately a small world. :):)

[sodd81927]

I could not imagine trying to work on supermarket racks without at least 3 set's of guages that's what I carry plus another 4 single high side and 3 low side gauge's and no less than three meters and electronic temp meters. You cannot fix it till you have the complete picture of what's going on with the system. It's cheaper to buy tool's and fix it right the first time than to guess at it many tines and lose a CUSTOMER.

[Zeiss Nut]

I could not imagine trying to work on supermarket racks without at least 3 set's of guages that's what I carry plus another 4 single high side and 3 low side gauge's and no less than three meters and electronic temp meters. You cannot fix it till you have the complete picture of what's going on with the system. It's cheaper to buy tool's and fix it right the first time than to guess at it many tines and lose a CUSTOMER.

Could not agree more.

[iraqveteran]

Could not agree more.

I agree too.

I have 7 sets of guages, 4 meters, 2 good clamp temps, 2 other temps, IR Gun, Pyscrometer, homemade VS diagnostic tool and just about anything else I can get without the wife knowing.

Next investment....digital guages.

[TCreacy]

I spend nearly as much on tools as my wife does on her shopping...the more tools, especially the right tools always help

[Executioner]

I don't work on rack systems but I use 1 set of guages,1 meter and usually diagnose an ice machine with a screwdriver to take off the front cover,
I've been doing this stuff since 89' and I find Ice machines the easiest calls to go on since they basically tell you whats wrong no matter the brand.

I personally don't rely on my tools to tell me what's wrong I rely on my expierence. Most will say that you can't diagnose a bad txv without guages and clamp on temp. probe and superheat readings, well... your wrong!

Every piece of refrigeration equipment no matter if it's self contained,remote,water cooled,WI cooler/freezer,ice machine operates the same way. They ALL do the same thing. they remove heat from whear it's not wanted.
No matter the type of refrigerant they all will follow the same few simple rules
Even cooling on the evaporator and even gradual cooling on the condenser.

It confuses me why alot of tech's confound themselves with subcooling and superheat reading's? yes in some instances those readings are helpfull but for the majority of calls the true problem slaps you in the face (to me anyway)


Example: reachin cooler freezing product.
Possible cause: Thermostat? maybe...

small ice ball at the beginning of the evap. whear the cap tube enters the coil or too cool of a condenser on a txv unit and unit runs constantly.

Low charge possible low side leak with noncondensables in system.


I'm not trying to sound pompous but the only 3 call backs I've had this year were due to me being stupid and ASS U MING or cutting corners at the end of the day or cause I was stupidly lazy.

[icehouse]

I don't work on rack systems but I use 1 set of guages,1 meter and usually diagnose an ice machine with a screwdriver to take off the front cover,
I've been doing this stuff since 89' and I find Ice machines the easiest calls to go on since they basically tell you whats wrong no matter the brand.

I personally don't rely on my tools to tell me what's wrong I rely on my expierence. Most will say that you can't diagnose a bad txv without guages and clamp on temp. probe and superheat readings, well... your wrong!

Every piece of refrigeration equipment no matter if it's self contained,remote,water cooled,WI cooler/freezer,ice machine operates the same way. They ALL do the same thing. they remove heat from whear it's not wanted.
No matter the type of refrigerant they all will follow the same few simple rules
Even cooling on the evaporator and even gradual cooling on the condenser.

It confuses me why alot of tech's confound themselves with subcooling and superheat reading's? yes in some instances those readings are helpfull but for the majority of calls the true problem slaps you in the face (to me anyway)


Example: reachin cooler freezing product.
Possible cause: Thermostat? maybe...

small ice ball at the beginning of the evap. whear the cap tube enters the coil or too cool of a condenser on a txv unit and unit runs constantly.

Low charge possible low side leak with noncondensables in system.


I'm not trying to sound pompous but the only 3 call backs I've had this year were due to me being stupid and ASS U MING or cutting corners at the end of the day or cause I was stupidly lazy.
You remind me of an Elctrician that came to work for Grandfather. He said "Max" I don't need a meter, just spit on his hand and touch the line.:eek:

[beachtech]

beachtech, What do you consider an old timer? I am just curious.

go back and re-read the posts please, what a minute, read the whole damn thing. now ask me that question again... didn't think so :)

[Gib's Son]

I don't work on rack systems but I use 1 set of guages,1 meter and usually diagnose an ice machine with a screwdriver to take off the front cover,
I've been doing this stuff since 89' and I find Ice machines the easiest calls to go on since they basically tell you whats wrong no matter the brand.

I personally don't rely on my tools to tell me what's wrong I rely on my expierence. Most will say that you can't diagnose a bad txv without guages and clamp on temp. probe and superheat readings, well... your wrong!

Every piece of refrigeration equipment no matter if it's self contained,remote,water cooled,WI cooler/freezer,ice machine operates the same way. They ALL do the same thing. they remove heat from whear it's not wanted.
No matter the type of refrigerant they all will follow the same few simple rules
Even cooling on the evaporator and even gradual cooling on the condenser.

It confuses me why alot of tech's confound themselves with subcooling and superheat reading's? yes in some instances those readings are helpfull but for the majority of calls the true problem slaps you in the face (to me anyway)


Example: reachin cooler freezing product.
Possible cause: Thermostat? maybe...

small ice ball at the beginning of the evap. whear the cap tube enters the coil or too cool of a condenser on a txv unit and unit runs constantly.

Low charge possible low side leak with noncondensables in system.


I'm not trying to sound pompous but the only 3 call backs I've had this year were due to me being stupid and ASS U MING or cutting corners at the end of the day or cause I was stupidly lazy.

I agree with allot of what your saying. I started back in 1982 and can feel and hear allot of what's going on in a system. I've seen some people get so hung up on subcooling, superheat and pressures that they overlook the obvious. Feel the pipes my friends, it tells you allot.

[icehouse]

:rolleyes: Yep just grab a "Bud" if its cold the unit works.
1.Suction line cold, unit okay (do we have a problem with TXV) don't know no gauges in hand.

2.Unit off on high head. Easy Condenser needs cleaning (do we have non- condensables) don't know no gauges.

3.Condenser seems clean (are we sure) don't know no I/R Thermometer

4. Ice Maker off? Fuse blew (why) don't know no meter

5. Where's my raise. With your tools. Oh don't have em. :):)

[HVAC Teacher]

I think having the right tools is the way to go.

My students' trucks are full of every gadget known to man!

I'm not a gadget guy.

[sodd81927]

Having all the right tools $20,000 + Knowing how to use them Priceless

[weber]

It confuses me why alot of tech's confound themselves with subcooling and superheat reading's? yes in some instances those readings are helpfull but for the majority of calls the true problem slaps you in the face (to me anyway)

I'm not trying to sound pompous but the only 3 call backs I've had this year were due to me being stupid and ASS U MING or cutting corners at the end of the day or cause I was stupidly lazy.

Well, I ll have to disagree with you. With out putting your gauges on there and taking a real time temp, you are ASS U MING!

Who cares if liquid is going back to the compressor, right? I mean, the line is cold, so what else matters?

[TCreacy]

It all has to work together...Tools, plus Experience. Whether its A/C or Ref, the more experience you have the quicker you would be able to walk up and say...oh yeah this happens all the time. Slap on some guages or a temp reading, and go to work.

[Executioner]

Alot of diagnostic's can be done without ever putting guages on a system.

For instance: WI freezer coil iced up, you proceed to put it in defrost,heaters heating, grab amp probe, drawing proper amps, ok get the mapp gas torch and melt alittle of the ice and find layered ice, ie..clear/frosty/clear/frosty ect...
Conclusion: once coil is defrosted and provided box comes down to temp. properly you need more defrost's or time on defrost. only if ice buildup is even top to bottom on coil.
If it's all white frost then too much humidity entering box.
Guages ARE needed to diagnose a sytem IF needed, some weeks I go 2 or 3 days without even getting them out the truck, while correctly diagnosing iced up coils not cooling and bad compressors that are electrically fine, coast's to a stop after 3 or more seconds and drawing low run amps, shaft is sheared compressors toast. Shut off comp. and suction line immediatly gets hot, high side valves are shot.
Walk up to the unit and box is slightly up in temp. coil has light frost at end with compressor iced around suction area= overfeeding TVX or overcharged.


Everyone has their own method of diagnosing a system, No one method is perfect. It is all based on that individual's expierence,preference,training.
I was taught in the field and have no clue how to calculate subcooling. Never needed it.
No clue how to calculate loads but recognize when a new store calls in on a 90 F day and the dinning area is pushing 80 F , on the roof you got 1 or 2 small A/C's and heat is pouring out the fans, If I got 20F temp. difference between return and supply air well gee I guess somebody saved a few bucks on xtra cooling.
Since 1988 I can safely say......
I'm not perfect and don't know it all and am still learning new thing's, but I'm comfortable walking into any refrigeration problem, wether it's new or after several other tech's have looked at unit with a few call back's. I always tell the customer that you'll know exactly what's wrong with the unit before I leave, and I'll either have it repaired or know what I need with no excuses.

[bobb25]

These are interesting posts. I don't do refg., just res / light commercial HVAC. Truck is loaded with parts mostly, so don't have a lot of room. 2 large nitrogens, gauges, scale, leak detectors, digi-clamp on, thermometers, etc.

Best tool I have is my ears. Listen to the customer for 5 minutes and ask them questions. Even if the customer doesn't know what's wrong, you should be able to narrow down the problem. Start out with basic dumb questions, like does it do it all the time, when was the last time it worked right, does everyone else in the building think it isn't working right, etc. Listen and process the info, and then ask more specific questions. You should have a good idea where to start looking before you ever pull out a tool.

[300sdturbo]

There are some really interesting threads in here. If I picked up a couple of pointers (like layered ice on a coil), I guess it just shows my age. There is wisdom in both agruements, not to change the subject,the young'uns could do with a little better manners...

[Executioner]

I will never downtalk another tech. from mine or another company regarding their diagnostic practices to a boss or customer unless their work or practices are just abhoherent.

Everyone learns differently and applies what they learn differently, some need the facts and figures, some can go by expirience and just about diagnose the problem while walking and talking to the customer to the unitin question.

The best suggestion to new tech's is while your taking your reading's touch and feel the refrigeration system,listen to it..the compressor and the general noise of the unit.

BEST ADVICE! Enjoy what your doing! take the good with the bad, but in all I REALLY enjoy walking in to a restaurant that has a Walk In down and saving the day.
Not soo much the creeps that don't appreciate your effort and think a pizza is comensurate compensation for 4 pounds of R22 and 2 hours labor.

But hey..... it's a living:D

[icehouse]

I to can diagnose whith my senses, but back everything up with proper readings.
In a lawsuit situation the Judge will throw you out unless you have proper documentation. Case in point when I serviced for Trump Management we had a woman who swore while she was at work at night, the Super sent someone to turn off her refrigerator causing her food to spoil. I installed a recording Amprobe and presented the documentation in court as she was suing for loss of food and to deduct this from her rent.
After seeing the recorded information the Judge threw the case and her out of court. :)

[Frostie]

I agree with Executioner, our senses are our best tools.

[TEK723]

Alot of diagnostic's can be done without ever putting guages on a system.

For instance: WI freezer coil iced up, you proceed to put it in defrost,heaters heating, grab amp probe, drawing proper amps, ok get the mapp gas torch and melt alittle of the ice and find layered ice, ie..clear/frosty/clear/frosty ect...
Conclusion: once coil is defrosted and provided box comes down to temp. properly you need more defrost's or time on defrost. only if ice buildup is even top to bottom on coil.
If it's all white frost then too much humidity entering box.
Guages ARE needed to diagnose a sytem IF needed, some weeks I go 2 or 3 days without even getting them out the truck, while correctly diagnosing iced up coils not cooling and bad compressors that are electrically fine, coast's to a stop after 3 or more seconds and drawing low run amps, shaft is sheared compressors toast. Shut off comp. and suction line immediatly gets hot, high side valves are shot.
Walk up to the unit and box is slightly up in temp. coil has light frost at end with compressor iced around suction area= overfeeding TVX or overcharged.


Everyone has their own method of diagnosing a system, No one method is perfect. It is all based on that individual's expierence,preference,training.
I was taught in the field and have no clue how to calculate subcooling. Never needed it.
No clue how to calculate loads but recognize when a new store calls in on a 90 F day and the dinning area is pushing 80 F , on the roof you got 1 or 2 small A/C's and heat is pouring out the fans, If I got 20F temp. difference between return and supply air well gee I guess somebody saved a few bucks on xtra cooling.
Since 1988 I can safely say......
I'm not perfect and don't know it all and am still learning new thing's, but I'm comfortable walking into any refrigeration problem, wether it's new or after several other tech's have looked at unit with a few call back's. I always tell the customer that you'll know exactly what's wrong with the unit before I leave, and I'll either have it repaired or know what I need with no excuses.

WOW

[shallowluv]

There are A LOT of diagnostics that can be performed w/out meters and gauges. Some can not. I work on ice machines in several major restaurant chains and they like documentation of performance and certain repair procedures. Also, if you are blowing a control fuse due to a short how would you determine it's location? The first part of this statement is only partially correct. You could have a faulty defrost termination sensor bringing the unit out intermittently causing ice build up. Tools are only there for you if you know how to use them. Wonder how many units have been replaced that you have repaired. Without the readings that are taken with tools performance can not be reliably confirmed. To save the day today and cost a compressor later because of , lets say a high discharge temp that you did not take, is completely unprofessional. We require readings for post repair performance and we have virtually no call back issue at all. 3 call backs for 6 techs so far this year. Over 4000 units repaired or installed so far this year. I consider us to be a very small company. We also have very little turnover. 4 techs with over 6 years and me with 4. We work long hours and without readings and doc. the info could be easily lost

[TEK723]

WOW

I responded to the wrong thread shallowluv, sorry! still learning the site.

[green jumper]

I may be able to do some initial diagnostic without gauges or tools to take measurements in some cases. But I sure wouldnt leave the job after the equipment is working without taking those readings.